Spoilers With Speculation

catrox14 · January 2, 2015

Even though Sam's characterization took a hit because of season 4, IMO it was fully redeemed when he dove voluntarily into the cage and saved the world and needed to use the demon blood to be strong enough to control Lucifer. So far Dean's demoniity might be used to explore his psychological issues but that is not really an action arc. And being saved by the people that love him isn't an action arc. I need Dean's demoniity to be useful to saving the world.

Edited January 2, 2015 by catrox14

Julia · January 2, 2015

Does killing Abbadon and the rogue man of letters not count?

I think Dean deserves at least as much credit. Sam pushed everyone who was trying to help him away (and I think the fact that he was banging his dealer played a part in that) and then tried to fix what he broke when it didn't work out for him. Dean accepted the mark assuming he was going to die alone with heaven and hell both lined up against him while Sam was, let's say, being rather unsupportive.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Julia

rue721 · January 2, 2015

Personally, I don't need demon!Dean to save the world in order to justify the storyline, because I don't actually like apocalypse SLs in general, and because I think the idea of a *demon* saving the world is bizarre. If Dean is able to save the world as a demon but not as a human being, what does that say about the value of a person's humanity? Humanity just holds people back, and we're better off without it?

And the idea of a demon saving the world (especially if it's on purpose!) also bothers me because demons are made by torturing human souls, so that makes it seem like torture creates heroes or undergoing torture makes someone more heroic which...UGH I already hate how the show deals with torture, that would just be going in completely the wrong direction, to me. YMMV, though, and I don't think it's impossible that the show will go that route.

I agree that the demon!Dean storyline doesn't feel at all over to me, and that I would feel cheated if they just let it go at this point, though. Things I hope the show will still go into:

-- what are the differences between demon!Dean and original-flavor!Dean? I'd like to see more of demon!Dean just to get more of a sense of that.

-- how did Dean become a demon in the first place? what did the "cure" actually *do*? I guess that's more about "lore" than character development, but imo the idea that demons are actually human beings who have been tortured into becoming monsters is really horrible and fascinating and I wish that in general, the show would go more into that. If they're redeemable, even in the sense of "curable," imo that's game-changing, and now that the show has made it obvious that they're committed to the idea of a demon cure, seeing as it's been essential to the plot for three seasons running, I hope that they go further into the connotations of that rather than just using it as a "get out of jail free!" kind of plot device.

Tbh, I think it's irrelevant which character gets which kill. They're supposed to be a team in any case -- which gets the goal and which gets the assist seems beside the point, to me. They've also both got tons of blood on their hands and have both proven their competence at killing, and even their competence at stopping apocalypses (!), many times over, so I don't really even know what either one killing a particular character would "prove" at this point.

That said, if Crowley is going to be killed, I think it would be more interesting if Dean were to do it, since they're supposedly close at this point. What I expect to happen, though, is that Sam finishes curing him, rather than that anyone kills him as a demon (though I supposed Dean could kill him after he's been made human again). I mostly expect him to be cured because I think it makes more sense to have introduced Rowena if they're going to have Crowley go human, and also because they've teased us for *so long* about how being half-cured has affected Crowley.

And I hope that Dean is the one to kill Cain, since he gave his word that he would. And I admit that I hope Sam is the one to kill Lucifer, if anyone kills him (which I hope they don't, actually). So never mind, I guess I do have opinions about the subject of who-should-kill-who!

Edited January 2, 2015 by rue721

Aeryn13 · January 2, 2015

Tbh, I think it's irrelevant which character gets which kill. They're supposed to be a team in any case -- which gets the goal and which gets the assist seems beside the point, to me.

If the show was less one-sided in general with SuperMytharcChosenOne!Sam and sidekick!Dean, I`d agree because then it would be an even playing field so the question wouldn`t come up. But since I don`t think it is even, I want it for Dean.

As for Lucifer, I don`t think they`ll be bringing him back. And Sam already took him out, apparently by the power of his own great will that is only next to God. Oh, he needed a small assist from a toy and a car, I guess that is why he is second to God. I`d rather have bleach dripped into my eyes then revisit that theme yet again.

If Dean is able to save the world as a demon but not as a human being, what does that say about the value of a person's humanity?

I never thought they actually showed humanity as this great thing. Sure, there was lip service to it but in the end for the big battles, supernatural specialness, superpowers and a mythic destiny are what mattered. That`s what IMO "saved the world" in the Season 5 Finale, not humanity and love.

The trials actually made it really, really obvious: you had to get supernaturally special again with some mojo to be Mr.Trial. Whereas Mr.Human`s job was cooking, drawing baths and waving the pom-poms. Yup, I can see how "just humans" are the cream of the crop.

Actually, it`s not that surprising. A supernatural show featuring supernatural beings is never that kind to just-humans. Those I watch, the purely human characters are the least interesting and it`s always a blessed relief when they become supernaturally special themselves.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Aeryn13

SueB · January 2, 2015

Looking at the spoilers...and then speculating...

1) Boogertron's utility MAY be because he appears to have more knowledge about how God set up the world than most. Being his scribe and all, he seemed to have spent more time with God than others. Plus he referenced Gadreel being busted for letting the serpent in the garden. Maybe he was lying but he strikes me as an underling who got to first-hand witness early stuff (including --- perhaps -- when Luci gave Cain the Mark).

2) I'm not sure the show has always been consistent regarding Boogerton's nature. He said he came from the "steno pool" and it seemed he had to hide from Archangels...so I don't think he's extra powered. He got all his power, it would seem, by somehow tapping into the Angel tablet.

With these two concepts, I'd say they are after Metatron knowledge, not Metatron powers. I really hope they mention that they CAN'T find Cain.

Since what Metatron wants is to be let out and kill all the humans...I really don't know what they could POSSIBLY bargain with in order to get him to talk. He's a weasle..maybe they think he'll fold under torture. Fabulous (/sarcasm).

IA that it's understandable that Claire thinks Randy was her friend despite what happened. Years of therapy may be required to get her head straight. But I still don't want to see her take on Dean. It's not going to end well.

Pete Martell · January 3, 2015

The trials actually made it really, really obvious: you had to get supernaturally special again with some mojo to be Mr.Trial. Whereas Mr.Human`s job was cooking, drawing baths and waving the pom-poms. Yup, I can see how "just humans" are the cream of the crop.

If they'd ended triumphantly, I would agree, but the first trial was mostly luck (Sam got the kill while the hellhound was fighting Dean), the second trial they would have failed if not for Dean getting Benny to help, and the third trial would lead to suicide. As it was I felt like the whole thing was a cautionary tale on why you shouldn't try to find glory.

oliverwendell · January 3, 2015

I'd say they are after Metatron knowledge, not Metatron powers. -- SueB

I agree. Metatron is the only being still around who has first-hand knowledge of the creation of the Mark of Cain. What I can't suss out is what they could possibly think they have on him that would make him help. (I gather Sam agrees with me.)

catrox14 · January 3, 2015

Does killing Abbadon and the rogue man of letters not count?

I think Dean deserves at least as much credit. Sam pushed everyone who was trying to help him away (and I think the fact that he was banging his dealer played a part in that) and then tried to fix what he broke when it didn't work out for him. Dean accepted the mark assuming he was going to die alone with heaven and hell both lined up against him while Sam was, let's say, being rather unsupportive.

Dean wasn't a demon when he killled Abaddon. He was still human with the MoC. All that we know he could do was Jedi the blade back into his hand which was really the Mark probably I'm talking about when Dean was an actual demon. He displayed no demon powers other than self-healing (which better not be the seflf healing being talked about.. Sam apparently had more supernatural powers as a human than demon!Dean with MoC .

I agree. Metatron is the only being still around who has first-hand knowledge of the creation of the Mark of Cain. What I can't suss out is what they could possibly think they have on him that would make him help. (I gather Sam agrees with me.)

Cain probably knows as much as Metatron would claim to know. Also, Metatron is a lying liar that lies so whatever he would say about it should not be believed.

My point about demon!Dean is that for me it was the ultimate character assassination and yet it has not really served any purpose storywise beyond him killing Lester and having a misadventure with Crowley. And I just can't believe that Dean becoming a demon is what it took for him to believe that people loved him. He's not that fucked up. And if it turns out that this was all done so Sam could realize he really did love his brother and was done to serve Sam's self awareness...oh boy...no thank you. I'm willing to wait out the end of the season to see if it yields something meaningful but right now....I'm pretty annoyed.

Edited January 3, 2015 by catrox14

oliverwendell · January 3, 2015

Cain probably knows as much as Metatron would claim to know. Also, Metatron is a lying liar that lies so whatever he would say about it should not be believed. -- Catrox14

I guess I'm assuming that Cain is AWOL and they can't find him. And I completely agree Metatron is a liar -- I'm saying that I think wringing intel out of him is their plan, not that I think it's a good one. In fact, I think it's a terrible one. Which is why, given Sam's description of their plan as the worst idea ever, I think it's their plan.

Although I think Cain does make an appearance later in the season? Maybe all they're trying to get out of Metatron is a way to find or even summon Cain.

Pete Martell · January 3, 2015

Dean wasn't a demon when he killled Abaddon. He was still human with the MoC. All that we know he could do was Jedi the blade back into his hand which was really the Mark probably I'm talking about when Dean was an actual demon. He displayed no demon powers other than self-healing (which better not be the seflf healing being talked about.. Sam apparently had more supernatural powers as a human than demon!Dean with MoC .

Sam was never just a human. He had demon blood forced into his mouth as a baby. Everything he was in his life was from that moment. Since he stopped with the demon blood he's been as human as anyone else.

We never really saw Demon Dean's supernatural abilities, but I assume he had them.

And I just can't believe that Dean becoming a demon is what it took for him to believe that people loved him. He's not that fucked up.

He's never had a big reason to believe anyone truly cares about him. Anyone who does tends to die or is alienated from him. Sam is the main exception, but that's a very damaged, dangerous relationship. His relationship with Cas is also very fraught. He pushes all of that down. The idea of the mark, even if they never really went as far as I would have wished, was that everything that stopped him from saying how he felt was burned away.

It's not about Dean seeing he's loved (at least for me) as much as all of this tearing away his walls enough that he has to rebuild and fortify on something beyond years of child abuse.

Aeryn13 · January 3, 2015

It's not about Dean seeing he's loved (at least for me) as much as all of this tearing away his walls enough that he has to rebuild and fortify on something beyond years of child abuse.

Problem is, I`m not seeing on what he should build walls instead if he doesn`t get his own affirmation and success. Being saved is passive, it solely hinges on the worth others attribute to you, which can be taken away at any time and at will of those people. It also, if we get down to it, implies weakness and damselness. If someone is not already convinced they are a loser, then this oughta do the trick.

Building on "family" is what started the problem in the first place and seriously, how many "you are needy/sloppy/dumb/selfish/a coward/do more harm then good" speeches under either a truth serum or under enough anger to tell it how one really feels does he need to open his eyes? I don`t wanna see him Charlie Brown-style running at that football over and over again.

So while I agree that his lifelong coping mechanisms don`t work anymore, I don`t see any true alternatives. And everything that might be on the horizon with the MOC storyline is even more vile in my eyes.

catrox14 · January 3, 2015

Sam was never just a human. He had demon blood forced into his mouth as a baby. Everything he was in his life was from that moment. Since he stopped with the demon blood he's been as human as anyone else.

We never really saw Demon Dean's supernatural abilities, but I assume he had them.

See to me Sam having demon blood spewed into his mouth as a baby never made him unhuman anymore than Dean having the MoC made him unhuman. Sam having psychic abilities did not make him unhuman. Dean became what has been identified in the show as a different species. So to me not seeing demon Dean use those skills that have always been power tools for demons is completely pointless. And I really hope we see it at least once.

rue721 · January 3, 2015

See to me Sam having demon blood spewed into his mouth as a baby never made him unhuman anymore than Dean having the MoC made him unhuman. Sam having psychic abilities did not make him unhuman. Dean became what has been identified in the show as a different species. So to me not seeing demon Dean use those skills that have always been power tools for demons is completely pointless. And I really hope we see it at least once.

I'm unclear on whether demons are 100% a different species than humans, though, since demons were once humans and can be "cured" and become humans again. That makes it sound like "demon-ness" is just a poison or an illness, which someone can be infected with (through torture?!) but that they can be cured of, too. That Sam got some mysterious demon powers (like telekinesis, in that he could yank demon souls out of their human hosts?) just makes it seem even more like humans and demons are on one continuum, that they aren't actually different species.

But the show doesn't seem like it's going in the direction of blurring the line between demons and humans in that way (even as the "lore" keeps heading in that direction?), in that none of the characters are trying to cure *all* the demons, or do a mass demon cure or anything like that, they still seem mostly in just killing demons as they come across them. That also seems strange to me in that, if Dean's big fear is becoming a demon, than on the one hand, he could keep that from happening by dumping the MoC, but on the other hand, he could keep that from happening by basically helping demons go extinct, couldn't he? He has no idea how to get rid of the MoC, but he's actually got a lot of info on how to get rid of/cure demons so you'd think it'd be the more fruitful course to take even if it's not the most ideal. Well anyway, I don't really understand where the show is going with all this demon stuff.

Why they would care at all what Metatron has to say, Idk. Metatron has witnessed a lot, but he's an idiot and he lives in a fantasy land. There's no way to get useful information out of him, far as I can see. Anyway, though, I don't see why Sam would be so het up over the idea of going to Metatron or even to torturing him (rme), and declare it "the worst idea" -- because they've done that exact thing before. In the preview, it looked like Metatron was dressed in street clothes rather than his strait jacket, so I guess they're taking him out and about? That's the weirdest part. Maybe they're trying to use him as leverage? I wonder if they're using him as a bargaining chip in order to gain entrance to a place or to a person that would be difficult to get to otherwise? Not that I know where/who that could be, but they must be going *somewhere* with him or else why dress him up and take him out of Heaven's prison?

I never thought they actually showed humanity as this great thing. Sure, there was lip service to it but in the end for the big battles, supernatural specialness, superpowers and a mythic destiny are what mattered. That`s what IMO "saved the world" in the Season 5 Finale, not humanity and love.

Thinking about it more, I think you're right. There's this weird undercurrent of elitism that's been increasing through the run of the show, with the thing of the Winchester being suitable as "vessels" because of their bloodline, and then that thing of the angels breeding the Winchester/Campbell families for their hunting pedigrees (BLECH), and then all that crap about the Men of Letters and being "legacies." All that aggravates the shit of me, so I tend to forget it. "Forget" meaning, pretend it doesn't exist. But that same elitism extends to supernatural stuff, maybe, where someone's specialness is based on whether he's been "chosen" as part of the supernatural, like there's a supernatural elite. It seems like even though supernatural stuff burns away a person's humanity, it also makes him stronger. Even Soulless!Sam was apparently a "better hunter" than Regular!Sam, and the *only* thing missing from Soulless!Sam was his humanity. And similarly with the MoC now, what's suspect about Dean is that he's *too* strong/fast/lethal/etc -- though he got the MoC in the first place in order to become stronger/faster/more lethal and able to take on Abaddon.

That makes me wonder also about where they're going to go with the MoC thing. I thought of it as a completely bad move from the first because I don't really understand why they're keeping Crowley around, let alone why they'd take care of Abaddon for him (aside from Mark Sheppard being a good actor, nice to have around, etc). I mean at least don't do him favors or let him do the dirty work himself, right? But anyway, within the world of the show, maybe supernatural stuff *does* make a person special, and maybe humanity isn't necessarily a good thing, maybe it actually is a weakness that people have to overcome in order to do what they need to do? That makes me less sure that Dean is going to get rid of the MoC anytime soon -- if it's a sign of him being "special," as in, strong/inhuman/connected to the supernatural, then maybe the show will want him to keep it.

That makes me think that what the show might be building toward, rather than Dean getting rid of the MoC, would be him taking over Crowley's role as King of Hell.

I would hate that, personally, mostly because I think it's ludicrous that there even is a King of Hell and because it's just so silly and claustrophobic how the guys know *everything* about the show's universe at this point, there's no mystery left to it really, and that they're supposed to be these ~major players~ in that universe. I also don't think that there's anything great about being the King of *Hell.* The King can go ahead and "wear [his] crown of shit, upon [his] liar's chair," I guess -- but being ~king~ doesn't sound like anything impressive or desirable to me. I wonder, though, if the show expects us to think there is something great about it, like that it's a badass thing to be?

Aeryn13 · January 3, 2015

He has no idea how to get rid of the MoC, but he's actually got a lot of info on how to get rid of/cure demons so you'd think it'd be the more fruitful course to take even if it's not the most ideal.

I think unless the Mark made him immortal and he has a few millenia worth of time, that`s just not workeable. Demons are too many and you get new ones all the time. Basically, I thought the same when in Buffy they battled the "first evil". Unless you killed off every single person on the planet, including the "heroes" doing the killing, you`d never be rid of evil because evil comes from people. Some more, some less but the potential at least is always there.

They made some jokes about deals being down and I guess hell doesn`t have an influx anymore like in the good old days but getting rid of demons entirely? Should be nigh impossible regardless.

That makes me less sure that Dean is going to get rid of the MoC anytime soon -- if it's a sign of him being "special," as in, strong/inhuman/connected to the supernatural, then maybe the show will want him to keep it.

Since it`s Dean and the show has never really wanted him to be special and connected to the core theme of a show called "Supernatural" aka the supernatural, I`m confident he`ll lose it in no time.

Now it`s not that I would want him as King of Hell either because he is not and has never been so evil that he belongs in hell permanently - there should be enough really evil people for the job left. Personally, I would have always loved him apprenticing with Death. Give it a few thousand years and see how it goes. Who knows how Death was when he started out.

rue721 · January 3, 2015

I think unless the Mark made him immortal and he has a few millenia worth of time, that`s just not workeable. Demons are too many and you get new ones all the time. Basically, I thought the same when in Buffy they battled the "first evil". Unless you killed off every single person on the planet, including the "heroes" doing the killing, you`d never be rid of evil because evil comes from people. Some more, some less but the potential at least is always there.

You only get new demons from current demons torturing human souls in Hell or possibly from people making deals with current demons (like Dean did -- still no idea how he became a demon, but...). Possibly, Lucifer*** could come into it -- but he's quarantined from human souls at the moment, save for Adam's, so he's not a player in terms of demon-making right now, I don't think. So if you got rid of all the current demons, then you wouldn't have any new ones. If you got the newly-cured demons involved in curing more, you could easily do an MLM version of getting rid of demons :P. Or rather, I think it's like when you lay down a few roach motels and let some roaches carry back poison to the other roaches and so on -- you don't have to get rid of each one yourself, you just have to get some carriers going back to their nests. Well anyway. I don't think that's the path the show is going to go down, but if I were one of them, that's the plan I'd be floating.

Dean does have millennia, as far as he knows -- the Mark apparently lent Cain immortality and now Dean apparently can't die, either. I think it's more that the Mark *itself* is immortal, not so much that Cain or Dean is. But demons are immortal, too, so who knows.

I *really* wish they'd flesh out the "lore" around demons, because I think the ~mysteriousness~ is making all this much more confusing and nonsensical than it seems right now. I hate that they're having Dean just find out nothing at all on the Mark. At least give him some confusing information or *something,* so that they'll all have to interpret the information and make decisions and maybe even have some (organic) conflict over what to do or who to believe.

***Yet another reason why I wish they would go to Lucifer. He made the Mark *and* he made demons. Plus, in a meta sense, he's interesting because he's played a major personal role in the guys' stories before. Why bother dealing with anyone else? I also still want them to go get Adam. Because apparently I cannot let go of anything, ever :P.

Aeryn13 · January 3, 2015

Yet another reason why I wish they would go to Lucifer. He made the Mark *and* he made demons. Plus, in a meta sense, he's interesting because he's played a major personal role in the guys' stories before.

Lucifer was a central figure in the five year story of Sam, with Dean a mere adjacent, though. Not to mention the conclusion of that is the worst episode in history for me. So going back to him would guarantee that the story would shift right back to "all about Sam forever" which is where my eyes and bleach come back in so I hope we`ll never see him again.

SueB · January 4, 2015

There's zero spoiler data to suggest Luci returning.

Everything suggests the MoC story being Dean centric -- with young Dean making a reappearance. I recall Robbie Thompson talking about the parentification of Dean being part of what drives him (I can't remember if it was an interview, twitter, or DVD commentary...sorry for lack of reference...I'm thinking DVD commentary). If THIS is part of where Robbie's head is at, then I wonder if we'll be revisiting Dean's childhood again.

And if you think about it, that story regarding John Winchester could very well have been a foreshadowing moment. We've also had:

- Sam bringing up John in Soul Survivor

- The impact of John on Dean being a MAJOR part of the lyrics in Fan Fiction

I don't know if we've had this many "Dad" references in years (like since S6 - early).

Taken collectively, I think it's possible a more personal solution is going to be required vice magic pill/sword/mcguffin.

Pete Martell · January 4, 2015

See to me Sam having demon blood spewed into his mouth as a baby never made him unhuman anymore than Dean having the MoC made him unhuman. Sam having psychic abilities did not make him unhuman. Dean became what has been identified in the show as a different species. So to me not seeing demon Dean use those skills that have always been power tools for demons is completely pointless. And I really hope we see it at least once.

I don't think either of them were totally inhuman at those points, but I was just using it as an example of Sam not just being a human with powers. It's difficult for me to look at Sam in those years and see him as some human who had awesome powers compared to Dean as a demon or with MoC, because Sam was manipulated every step of the way. I'm not sure what he would have been or would have done without the manipulation.

Problem is, I`m not seeing on what he should build walls instead if he doesn`t get his own affirmation and success. Being saved is passive, it solely hinges on the worth others attribute to you, which can be taken away at any time and at will of those people. It also, if we get down to it, implies weakness and damselness. If someone is not already convinced they are a loser, then this oughta do the trick.

Building on "family" is what started the problem in the first place and seriously, how many "you are needy/sloppy/dumb/selfish/a coward/do more harm then good" speeches under either a truth serum or under enough anger to tell it how one really feels does he need to open his eyes? I don`t wanna see him Charlie Brown-style running at that football over and over again.

I don't really need Dean to be saved or find his worth in being saved, I want Dean to find his own self-worth. And I don't think Dean will ever find that in who he kills, as he was forced to kill from a very young age. To me it's nothing that will ever help him find all of who he can be. I just want to see the character try to repair himself, as unlikely as that is to happen.

rue721 · January 4, 2015

There's zero spoiler data to suggest Luci returning.

Yeah, I doubt Lucifer's actually going to show. If he were, the show probably would have played it up more and made it clearer that the actor would be around. SPN isn't big on springing surprises on its audience. But I personally would really like if they went to Lucifer! He's so entangled in everything -- how demons are made, the origins of the MoC, Cain/Abel, obviously the show's own past seasons, etc. Plus, why bother springing Metatron (WHY IS METATRON EVEN ALIVE) when they've got Lucifer imprisoned, too, and Lucifer's bound to know much more and be much more interesting than Metatron is in any case (bleh and also I just hate Metatron. KILL HIM).

Taken collectively, I think it's possible a more personal solution is going to be required vice magic pill/sword/mcguffin.

The magic Mcguffins tend to be so anticlimactic, so my fingers are crossed for a more personal solution in that respect.

Is Dylan Everett the only flashback/"young" actor that the show seems to be bringing back in the near future? If so, then whatever the show does will have to be very Dean-centric -- who's he even going to be interacting with? I guess it could work without more recasting and without kid!Dean having a bizarrely isolated SL if the show does like someone brought up up-thread and have kid!Dean somehow be in the present day.

That CBGB story and the flashback episode last season, Bad Boys, both give me some trepidations about the show going into any more stories about Dean as a kid, though. Not to say they were irredeemably horrible. I even enjoyed Bad Boys as a one-off/self-contained episode, and figured it was good that the show decided to do an episode that made it really clear that Dean was good-hearted and innocent once, since when the MoC storyline ramped up soon after, imo he got pretty scary pretty fast. BUT. I didn't feel like either that story or that episode made sense in terms of Dean as a character or the Winchesters as a family in terms of how they'd been portrayed up until then -- I didn't feel like either was very well thought-out in terms of how it fit into the show as a whole. It's relatively minor stuff that bothered me about the CBGB story and about Bad Boys, but they were both still difficult for me to take seriously because of that relatively minor stuff, regardless. I'm not looking forward to some off-key schlock-fest, which is what I'm afraid any further kid!Dean storyline could become.

And god forbid the show tries to pull another one of those "an army man is stuck in Baby's backseat ashtray (or whatever)" stunts. I hated how the show tried to pretend after the fact that the resolution/season's climax was set up ~long ago.~ GUYS WE WATCH THE SHOW WE KNOW WHAT WAS SET UP (it cracks me up now that they actually tried to pull that, tbh, but at the time I found it infuriating that they had the climax of seasonsssssss' worth of plot resolved by some random, silly thing we'd never heard of before and really shouldn't have made any difference. It made those two seasons seem like a waste of time to me).

Pete Martell · January 4, 2015

Not sure if it's true but there's some spec that if Dylan returns it will be a de-aging episode.

A few continuity errors aside, I didn't have a big problem with the portrayal of Dean in "Bad Boys." I know some fans insisted the show was trashing Dean by having him gamble food money, but I took it as a reminder that Dean was a kid, not a saint. It was a whitewashed, Hallmark-ish version of Dean, admittedly, but I much preferred it to the "After School Special" version where teen Dean looked 30+, treated women like trash, and bellowed in a "coulda beena contenda" voice about how he was a hero. I think what I liked most about the episode was that it was a reminder of what Dean never got to have, because sometimes the show, and fandom in general, present this idea that Dean had a fine life, because he had Sam, and Saint Bobby, and a cool car, and yeah John was a drag, but the rest was a good time until Sam left.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Pete Martell

SueB · January 4, 2015

"After School Special" version where teen Dean looked 30+, treated women like trash, and bellowed in a "coulda beena contenda" voice about how he was a hero.

YOMANK (you owe me a new keyboard).

I hope its not de-aging. Dylan was good but Dean is too complex now. I just don't see him pulling it off. Unless he loses all his memories too. Which...what would be the point? IDK.

(WHY IS METATRON EVEN ALIVE)

Same reason Bilbo, and later Frodo, didn't kill Gollum. Not from Metatron's character perspective -- Gollum was MUCH more sympathetic (which is, bless Curtis Armstrong, saying something). But because our hero(es) should not be killing just because they're scum*. And because our villain has a role to play yet.

Seriously though, look at the scene in LOTR:

Frodo: It's a pity Bilbo didn't kill him when he had the chance.

Gandalf: Pity? It was pity that stayed Bilbo's hand. Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends. My heart tells me that Gollum has some part to play yet, for good or ill before this is over. The pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many.

If Sam, Dean, and Cas are to be firmly rooted in the "hero" role, they need to start with a little wisdom regarding life and death. They've played with it the entire series and for the sake of drama they've really pushed the envelope. Cas, in keeping Metatron alive, showed wisdom. I'll be very upset if they dump that wisdom now. OTOH, if Metatron forces their hand -- then he's done. And by forces their hand, I mean escapes. Because Metatron on the loose is a dangerous thing.

*yes, Dean killed Lester-the-scum, but he was a demon at the time (say it like Sam).

Aeryn13 · January 4, 2015

The reason is IMO behind-the-scenes. This Season makes it clear to me that they, especially Jensen, have negoiated massively reduced screentime for their renewals. The de-aging thing is one way to do it.

I think i will be a filler ep, probably comedy. It is also penned by Glass who wrote Bad Boys so it`s same actor/same character and expect more of the same. The episode itself was okay but the age fumbling was stupid. The first awkward kiss at 16? It would have been fine for 14. And Sam looked 5 in the end, making their age gap suddenly 11 instead of 4 years.

Anyway, Glass admitted the first kiss story was his own. In the same vein, I think the CBGB story was one of the writers. Oh, probably not that particular club but getting buzzed and having the dad come in. I`d bet on it. I don`t think ANY thought went into it as far as Dean`s characterization goes but it was just a "hey, can we use this cool story from my childhood?" Equally Thompson has admitted that he writes Charlie as himself and his own personal wish fulfillment.

I think the writers do these all the time now. It`s also how we end up with Dean with a dating app and asking in a wounded voice if Sam doesn`t think attractive woman would go for him. Because he has the perspective of a weird-looking nerd, naturally. Urgh.

The other reason they could be building up John again after years of trashing is also behind-the-scenes. The actor finally agreed to do a Con and he has made it know in the past loud and clear how displeased he was with John`s characterization. If they have hope now to tentatively negoiate another appearance, they`ll need to make reparations first.

Cas, in keeping Metatron alive, showed wisdom.

I disagree. In these types of shows whenever the hero lets the bad guy live, you just know they`ll come back to wreak havoc again, Probably worse. It`s always such an "you complete idiot" moment for me.

A recent episode of Vampire Diaries had that same concept. They didn`t kill their bad guy when they had the chance, at the end of the ep he was a superpowered bad guy they couldn`t easily take down anymore. One character snarkily summarized the lesson as "if today taught us anything, it is to kill our enemies with haste". Bless you, I thought.

I assume they`ll either let Metatron walk free or he`ll escape. Then he`ll wreak havoc again and the second half of the Season will deal with that.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Aeryn13

Pete Martell · January 4, 2015

The reason is IMO behind-the-scenes. This Season makes it clear to me that they, especially Jensen, have negoiated massively reduced screentime for their renewals. The de-aging thing is one way to do it.

I think i will be a filler ep, probably comedy. It is also penned by Glass who wrote Bad Boys so it`s same actor/same character and expect more of the same. The episode itself was okay but the age fumbling was stupid. The first awkward kiss at 16? It would have been fine for 14. And Sam looked 5 in the end, making their age gap suddenly 11 instead of 4 years.

Anyway, Glass admitted the first kiss story was his own. In the same vein, I think the CBGB story was one of the writers. Oh, probably not that particular club but getting buzzed and having the dad come in. I`d bet on it. I don`t think ANY thought went into it as far as Dean`s characterization goes but it was just a "hey, can we use this cool story from my childhood?" Equally Thompson has admitted that he writes Charlie as himself and his own personal wish fulfillment.

I think the writers do these all the time now. It`s also how we end up with Dean with a dating app and asking in a wounded voice if Sam doesn`t think attractive woman would go for him. Because he has the perspective of a weird-looking nerd, naturally. Urgh.

The other reason they could be building up John again after years of trashing is also behind-the-scenes. The actor finally agreed to do a Con and he has made it know in the past loud and clear how displeased he was with John`s characterization. If they have hope now to tentatively negoiate another appearance, they`ll need to make reparations first.

Has Jensen really had that much less airtime compared to last season? I thought they were negotiating their contracts for next season (if there is one), and this one was signed back after season 7. They've already done an episode where another actor played Dean for most of the scenes (Chad Everett), so I'm not sure it would mean anything with the contract.

I agree about the age thing, but I don't know if that was Glass or production, as the episode was filmed with Dean as 14 and then they changed it to 16 post-production.

I think the CBGB story was to parallel him with Claire, who was almost raped in the same episode.

The John rehab, if one wants to call it that, started in season 8, when JDM was still working on Magic City and he seemed even less likely to come back than he is now (given the rumors of TPTB not caring for his attitude, I'm still not sure we'll ever see him again). I think they did it because they wanted to introduce Henry, and the Men of Letters, and if John was just remembered as the drunken deadbeat abuser, there would have been less pathos. I think it's also done to try to show the conflict in Dean, given that all he can cling to as an identity is an abusive father.

I hope its not de-aging. Dylan was good but Dean is too complex now. I just don't see him pulling it off. Unless he loses all his memories too. Which...what would be the point? IDK.

If it happens, they'd probably just play it up as a joke, but I could also see them just using it to have Dean see the world through his old eyes again, remember what he never was. Sam would probably struggle with it too. Maybe they could have him ask Sam to let him drive the Impala or something, since John never let him at that age. I keep thinking back to that TNG episode when some of the characters were de-aged, and poor Ro Laren asked to stay a kid a little longer, to get to play, before she had to go back to being an adult.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Pete Martell

shang yiet · January 4, 2015

I think what I liked most about the episode was that it was a reminder of what Dean never got to have, because sometimes the show, and fandom in general, present this idea that Dean had a fine life, because he had Sam, and Saint Bobby, and a cool car, and yeah John was a drag, but the rest was a good time until Sam left.

I don't see it that way. The show and fandom paint Dean as the most suffering of all, stuck with babysitting Sam, abused by John, not appreciated by anyone, the woobiest of all. For fandom, wounded bird Dean had the worst childhood possible. It was Sam who had it easy, according to most.

Pete Martell · January 4, 2015

I don't see it that way. The show and fandom paint Dean as the most suffering of all, stuck with babysitting Sam, abused by John, not appreciated by anyone, the woobiest of all. For fandom, wounded bird Dean had the worst childhood possible. It was Sam who had it easy, according to most.

I guess it depends on the fan. To me the show has been all over the place, but up to that episode I felt like they'd more often than not taken a somewhat whitewashed approach from about season 5 on, with the only negative moments of Dean's life being from John. The whole "they didn't need a home because they had a cool car!" monologue will always stick in my craw.

Aeryn13 · January 4, 2015

Has Jensen really had that much less airtime compared to last season?

I think the reduced airtime has been noticeable for the last two years but this Season so far? It`s really striking. Usually, I`d say put in most of the airtime in the beginning when they`re still fresh from hiatus and then make it lesser in the second half when the burnout factor comes on but both Js have never had less screentime IMO in the first 9 episodes than this year. As far as the negotiations, sure, those are done in advance but that only means it takes a bit to become noticeable for certain clauses to come into effect, not that such clauses aren`t included.

They've already done an episode where another actor played Dean for most of the scenes (Chad Everett), so I'm not sure it would mean anything with the contract.

Oh, I don`t think that particular concept was negoiated, it`s just a good way to keep the character onscreen without the actor present. Their other options were flashbacks - and they probably couldn`t find a story for those or two kid actors if need be - or body-hopping. The latter being iffy at best.

As it is, I think they went with a comedy filler. Either Dean retains his adult memory in which case the comedy comes from that or he is truly de-aged mentally as well in which case a different kind of comedy will be weaved from it. After all, he wouldn`t necessarily believe Sam is who he says to be and all that. Also, they can use it as an out from the MOC story, should Dean still have it at that point. If he is de-aged, it is simply gone and no need to write in any repercussions.

In terms of using it for characterization or anything deeper, I believe the writers put in maybe 0.5 % of thought into those things vs. the amount forum discussion puts in. At best, there will be some surface "before the Mark was innocence" message. But nothing too deep. I don`t think the current writers are capable of it.

DittyDotDot · January 4, 2015

If the speculation is correct in that it will be a de-aging episode, I fully expect it to be more of a comedy. Adult in a child's body is a typical go to for genre shows. Seems to me like it could be a very nice character driven piece though considering that Dean used to have a kind of child-like zest for life that's been melodramatically suppressed as of late. Might be nice for Dean to get a chance to have a little fun and remember why he used to have that zest for life. It mostly hinges on whether the kid they cast can mimic enough of what Jensen does on screen to make it seamless. I thought Dylan did a fine job as a teenaged Dean, but can he also do a reasonable facsimile of adult Dean stuck in young Dean's body?

It'd be nice for the writing to hold up it's end also, but if I got everything I wanted, that would be bad, right? ;)

catrox14 · January 4, 2015

I think Dylan Everett showed some bits of adult Dean or rather the seeds of adult Dean in in his portrayal. I think he was the best young Dean and if they have did a body swap or something like that it, I think it would be great.

SueB · January 4, 2015

"if today taught us anything, it is to kill our enemies with haste". Bless you, I thought.

MMV but that's not heroic IMO. I don't really know TVD but since it's about Vampires, I'd expect a little moral ambiguity there. Sam, Dean and Cas? I think yhey're SUPPOSED to be heroes. So I they need to live by a more recognized position in honor. Geneva Convention and all. Whether or not you consider Metatron a prisoner from an Angel civil war or just an evil dude, Cas' philosophy has been to NOT kill more Angels. Hannah was big on "punishment" and Cas said "no" on more than one occasion. (That business with the 'rogue' angels and Hannah being Stabby McStabberson and Cas wanting to talk it out). And he REALLY wanted to kill Metatron. So Cas, IMO has made a moral stand. I want him to stick with it.

Bottom Line: If Metatron dies in the upcoming run, I want it to be because of some imminent action he is taking, not and execution.

catrox14 · January 4, 2015

If Dean takes a trip through memory lane to happier fun times to get him to an adult Dean played by Jensen Ackles freeing himself of the Mark, okay fine. The MoC is too serious. Dean became a demon because of that fucking thing, and to handwave it away via another actor playing Dean or through a comedic moment? Oh, Frak no. I would totally give up on the show.

ETA: I think Sam and Dean have always been morally ambiguous in their tactics to defeating monsters and evil. But I was fine with that because there clear lines then between the monsters and humans and what the monsters, demons including angels, archangels, and maybe even Chuck/God depending on one's viewpoint, did to the boys to try and accomplish their own agendas.

So to me, I really never cared if they tortured a demon or an angel to get what they needed. I cared what effect the torturing had on the boys not on the monsters. Call me a bad person. So now if they have taking Sam into being an asshole by not trying to find what happened to Dean or Kevin and then turned Dean into a demon because he couldn't stand himself and the resolution to Dean's mytharc happens without Jensen and Jared ...welp...peace out.

The difference between Kripke and Carver era is that Carver has chosen to attempt to make the monsters sympathetic. And to tell Sam and Dean's stories almost exclusively through through the monsters which just personally pisses me off. And that IMO is lifted right from from his Being Human mindset. He spent whatever time as showrunner there exploring the monster in the human and the human in the monster. He picked that up again here. I don't like it because for me making Sam and Dean into monsters destroys the heart of the show. Sam was redeemed from his monstrous ways in s5. Apparently Dean was redeemed by supporting Sam. I don't like that for Dean but that's my own issue.

I can understand that Jared and Jensen are negotiating more time off but I think the show would be better served to just say okay, we are going to end it this season, give Sam and Dean and Cas and Crowley, figure out the MoC thing then entire focus from ep 10 onward to the end. Because now you're just diluting the thing that makes it work.

I think they were really considering ending at 10, then Carver came up with Dean becoming a demon, Jensen was on board with that at least for a longer short term than what we got. I think Jared has been his best this season since probably s3 and s4, which may be because he's gotten more time off and is just regular!Sam which is a great thing.

But now with possible renewal, IMO they balked on demon!Dean , are still giving the MoC a looksee until what s11 when they finally decide to call it a day and give it an actual frakking ending.

Edited January 4, 2015 by catrox14

SueB · January 4, 2015

I'll bet a week's paycheck Dylan doesn't get the BIG DAMN HERO moment of freeing himself from the MoC.

Edited January 4, 2015 by SueB

DittyDotDot · January 4, 2015

MMV but that's not heroic IMO. I don't really know TVD but since it's about Vampires, I'd expect a little moral ambiguity there. Sam, Dean and Cas? I think yhey're SUPPOSED to be heroes. So I they need to live by a more recognized position in honor. Geneva Convention and all. Whether or not you consider Metatron a prisoner from an Angel civil war or just an evil dude, Cas' philosophy has been to NOT kill more Angels. Hannah was big on "punishment" and Cas said "no" on more than one occasion. (That business with the 'rogue' angels and Hannah being Stabby McStabberson and Cas wanting to talk it out). And he REALLY wanted to kill Metatron. So Cas, IMO has made a moral stand. I want him to stick with it.

Bottom Line: If Metatron dies in the upcoming run, I want it to be because of some imminent action he is taking, not and execution.

Then a leprechaun it is. ;)

Seriously, I agree. I don't want to see Marvatron's execution via Cass (although I'm not morally opposed to him being executed--hey, what would constitute an angelic trial?). I too want Cass to stick with his moral imperative. And, in general, I want deaths to be born out of poor actions rather than just killing for killing's sake. I just think Marvatron's purpose has outlived itself and it's time for him to exit by whatever means necessary, IMO.

If Dean takes a trip through memory lane to happier fun times to get him to an adult Dean played by Jensen Ackles freeing himself of the Mark, okay fine. The MoC is too serious. Dean became a demon because of that fucking thing, and to handwave it away via another actor playing Dean or through a comedic moment? Oh, Frak no. I would totally give up on the show.

I'm supremely (there I go again) optimistic that the MoC will not be removed from Dean being de-aged.

Aeryn13 · January 4, 2015

I don't really know TVD but since it's about Vampires, I'd expect a little moral ambiguity

Heh, nearly every character on that has basically no morality, that is beyond their tribal mentality of "us first", they don`t seem to understand even the concept. But in that case, I just agreed with the philosophy. Sometimes, I can see why the hero would not kill the bad guy when they are beaten but sometimes it just comes across as stupid. Like a "I don`t do it because I`m the hero". That just makes me think "well, when they inevitably come back, I hope they kill YOU for your stupidity instead of innocent people". I find "naive morality" unheroic, too.

At least they should have put it up to a vote in Heaven. If the majority wanted to kill Metatron off, then so be it. Just because Cas was in one of his "no angel violence" phases at the time didn`t mean he got to make the call either. And we saw that not lasting very long either this Season with the "we won`t come back" faction. Metatron certainly deserved to die more than those angels. Yet Cas intervened successfully for him but not for them? Bah, humbug. The writers just didn`t want to let go of their little meta toy.

Pete Martell · January 4, 2015

The difference between Kripke and Carver era is that Carver has chosen to attempt to make the monsters sympathetic. And to tell Sam and Dean's stories almost exclusively through through the monsters which just personally pisses me off. And that IMO is lifted right from from his Being Human mindset. He spent whatever time as showrunner there exploring the monster in the human and the human in the monster. He picked that up again here. I don't like it because for me making Sam and Dean into monsters destroys the heart of the show. Sam was redeemed from his monstrous ways in s5. Apparently Dean was redeemed by supporting Sam. I don't like that for Dean but that's my own issue.

The show has always been ambiguous about whether we should sympathize with monsters. And the answer is generally - sometimes, but they will never be able to survive in the end, unless they are Sam or Dean.

I also don't agree that the lines were clear about what angels, demons, etc. did to Sam and Dean. There were sympathetic and malevolent angels as well as demons. There were what felt like neverending scenes of Lucifer whining about how poorly treated he was, and I felt like they were trying hard to make sure we knew he wasn't all bad and that the angels, especially Michael, were worse.

I'd say Gamble was far more interested in the sympathetic monster trope than Carver, considering that during her tenure, Crowley and Meg were treated almost as part of the family, while humans like the Campbells were written as jackbooted thugs.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Pete Martell

DittyDotDot · January 4, 2015

I think the show has always been ambiguous whether the monsters were really monsters and/or whether the good guys are actually good. That's why I think of the show as a western in the guise of horror.

rue721 · January 4, 2015

I think the show has always been ambiguous whether the monsters were really monsters and/or whether the good guys are actually good.

IA. The show gives a lot of nods to moral relativism. My favorite plot-thread (theme?) related to this, is the question of whether obedience is a virtue or not, and why people are obedient (or not).

I just think Marvatron's purpose has outlived itself and it's time for him to exit by whatever means necessary, IMO.

Also agreed. I don't care how he goes out, I just want him gone.

Plus, since the "good guys" are so big on torturing, to the point that they contracted their torturing out to the King of Hell for a little while there, and Dean literally tortured Gadreel until he'd exhausted himself (*shudder*), I don't expect them to comply with the Geneva Conventions as a general rule.

Tbh I would really like if they reconsidered their stance on torture, maybe read some philosophy or something ffs (the WWII-era Men of Letters had no literature on that stuff? Seems like that sort of thing would have been relevant to their interests, given the time/context they were operating in), but obvs that's not going to happen. I'd eat my hat if they actually mentioned "Nuremberg," though imo *those* sorts of Trials are what they should be thinking about when it comes to the dilemma of how to deal with both the Angels' and the Demons' possible crimes (and possible irredeemability), js. Not to go off on a total tangent.

Anyway, I find torture repugnant. There are lots of things that the guys choose to do that I would be very upset about if they were actually people I had to have any dealings with, though. If they were actual people, I'd be trying to get out of town the second I heard they were headed that way. But tbh if Donna or Jodi were headed my way I would also be scrambling to get out of sight, so whatever. Trigger happy "officers of the law" or vigilantes, that are armed to the teeth and have no remorse about killing "things"? NOPE. NOOOOOOOPE.

But within the show, their perspectives make sense and even though imo sometimes they're horrifically wrong-headed, I don't think that they have bad intentions or goals and I still feel that they're fundamentally good people, so I can still drum up enough sympathy for them that I just hope for them to rethink their methods rather than condemning them outright. Also, in general, I'm more willing to cut the Winchesters slack in that regard than I am most other characters because imo they actually were brainwashed for a long time and have been isolated from mainstream society, so I expect their POV to be very skewed, in a way that they probably wouldn't even be aware of. That doesn't mean I'm OK with their skewed/screwed up POVs, but I can go along and stay fairly sympathetic to and interested in them regardless. Plus, I'm softhearted.

I'm definitely not cheering for them to kill even "monsters," though -- I actually don't think the show wants us to, for the most part. Imo, the show has actually made clear that when Dean killed Abaddon or even just the "regular old monsters" that they've had in the MotW episodes lately, it hasn't been a completely good thing. Even in Hibbing 911, a generally very upbeat episode imo, when Donna was feeling good from her part in killing the nest of vampires, the show contrasted the ~hopefulness~ and excitement of her being inducted into the hunting life with the Winchesters having that uncomfortable and unsettling talk about Dean "feeling like himself." That ending to the episode wasn't a celebration. I think the show has been pretty clear (from the beginning) that all this killing and brutality and isolation is *bad* for human beings, it strips away their humanity (John's complicity in that when it came to his own children is where a lot of the within-show ambivalence toward him comes from imo) -- what the show is interested in right now, imo, (and maybe has been in general) is exploring the pros/cons of someone having his humanity stripped away.

If the speculation is correct in that it will be a de-aging episode, I fully expect it to be more of a comedy. Adult in a child's body is a typical go to for genre shows. Seems to me like it could be a very nice character driven piece though considering that Dean used to have a kind of child-like zest for life that's been melodramatically suppressed as of late. Might be nice for Dean to get a chance to have a little fun and remember why he used to have that zest for life.

It probably would get played as a comedy, because that's how the show does. And I could deal with a comedic episode given all the MoC heaviness and this horribly depressing Claire SL, tbh. Taking a step back, though, it seems strange to me that it would be *fun* to become a kid again in a world that's as dangerous as the show's is.

Even as myself, I wouldn't want to be a fucking kid again. If demons and monsters and things could attack at any time? YEAH, NO. That's already terrifying, so to be in that same context, but smaller, weaker, more ignorant, in less control of oneself? And for Dean especially, it's not like being a kid was all fun and games -- he's got more freedom and less responsibility now, as an adult, than he did back in the day. He just wasn't worn down back when he was just a kid so I guess he could keep his head up pretty well. But to have the heavy heart of an adult with the weakness and vulnerability of being in a child's body?! Nightmare.

Personally, I'm not concerned about the acting. Dylan Everett did a good job last time, imo, and the acting on SPN is strong as a rule. It's usually the strongest thing the show's got going, imo.

A few continuity errors aside, I didn't have a big problem with the portrayal of Dean in "Bad Boys." I know some fans insisted the show was trashing Dean by having him gamble food money, but I took it as a reminder that Dean was a kid, not a saint. It was a whitewashed, Hallmark-ish version of Dean, admittedly, but I much preferred it to the "After School Special" version where teen Dean looked 30+, treated women like trash, and bellowed in a "coulda beena contenda" voice about how he was a hero. I think what I liked most about the episode was that it was a reminder of what Dean never got to have, because sometimes the show, and fandom in general, present this idea that Dean had a fine life, because he had Sam, and Saint Bobby, and a cool car, and yeah John was a drag, but the rest was a good time until Sam left.

Agreed that Bad Boys was better than After School Special. Like I said, I liked Bad Boys as a self-contained/MotW episode -- the present day story of the kid with the ghost mom was actually really touching imo (again, a total softie, sorry). Continuity issues like the need to age up the characters a bit because of who they cast as kid!Dean, etc, didn't bother me, personally, just because they seemed like logistical necessities and therefore easy (imo) to handwave.

The practical things that did trip me up a bit about that episode were things like, at that age, Dean was capable of killing monsters but not of stealing some protein bars or whatever from the store without getting caught? Or that he would try to steal bread and peanut butter of all things -- such bulky items? Like I said, incredibly minor stuff, just distracting. In the same way that, with the CBGB story, I got tripped up over the idea that John could actually even get into a club when trying to go after his kid. What bouncer was letting him in? But that stuff is still relatively hand-wave-y imo. I mean, it's fiction and written according to time constraints, no need to nitpick to *that* extent.

It was more character-based stuff that I had some trouble with. Maybe the stuff you mean by saying it was "whitewashed"? For example, it seemed weird to me that Dean wouldn't have been neurotic enough to have at least small stashes of money or even food hidden away in his things, just for his own peace of mind, so that he'd know he wouldn't run out even if John was gone for a few extra days (or god forbid, never came back) or something. Or other contingency plans related to that -- stuff that he'd have told himself he'd pawn or sell if necessary, people in town who he'd marked out as liable to do him a favor in a pinch, or even some routine for getting money or at least *food* from people (even just straight up asking for it!) if he ran short. Or even just basic contingency plans for contacting John and/or Sam if something happened, which he didn't seem to have, either. The apparent lack of a Plan B was weird to me especially because Dean's relatively big on contingency plans in general (*how* many weapons does that man carry on his person at any given time?!). It also would have been OK imo if all his contingency plans had fallen through -- shit happens -- and he'd gotten to a point of real desperation where he just had to try and take what he needed or was just SOL despite everything. But that didn't seem to be the story they were trying to tell?

I actually wish that instead of remarkably poor problem solving, he'd gotten caught doing something just entirely dumb and for fun, like if he'd gotten caught trying to hotwire a car for joyriding or to impress other kids or something. Or gotten caught for other regular stuff that kids often get into trouble for -- fighting, smoking pot, drinking, vandalizing stuff, etc. Or something even more embarrassing, like getting caught in a squat and picked up for "trespassing." I would also have liked that because god forbid Sam had been sent to some other group home, that would have been an issue for the whole family. Anyway, it's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things, that was just the kind of thing that bothered me about that episode because imo it was a characterization problem rather than a logistical problem. That's the sort of thing that made me feel like, "wait, this is a story about Dean? Dean Winchester?!" and not really able to take it seriously. Similarly to the CBGB story, where I could handwave a lot of the practical stuff and wasn't really looking for a lot of realism in the first place, but still ultimately wasn't able to take it seriously, because the overall tone/characterization just felt off to me. It was OK as a generic story, I guess, but it wasn't a story that I could take seriously as something that had happened to and was being told by Dean of all people. He didn't even say what bands were playing? Idk, the whole thing just hit the wrong note (and, to me, it didn't seem as though they were trying to hit the wrong note on purpose).

Well anyway! So, I'm a little iffy on flashbacks in general, but I think that the show doesn't have the *best* track record on kid!Dean in general, and lately his characterization has seemed really strange, so I have some trepidations. But will of course watch the episode and probably will enjoy it, lol.

Hey, maybe it'll be a time travel episode? That would be kind of fun, they haven't done one for a long time. Now that time travel changes things in the present day, maybe they can make it so Dean never got the MoC in the first place, if they change something back in the day?

catrox14 · January 4, 2015

Gamble was never as overt with her monsters are sympathetic as Carver IMO.

Pete Martell · January 5, 2015

Gamble was never as overt with her monsters are sympathetic as Carver IMO.

Other than Garth (who was a human in most of his appearances), I think most of Carver's monsters are ambiguous or fatalistic. Benny was sympathetic, but he was still a monster. Kate tried to be good, but ultimately still suffered for it, and may stop caring about trying.

Gamble tended to push equivalence, especially with Meg. There was a general idea that Meg really wasn't any different than Dean and Sam, so why judge her? There was a certain amount of this with Crowley too - not that he was the same as Dean and Sam, but that he wasn't really a guy we should see as bad, that he was just a naughty uncle, working on a common goal.

Of course Crowley still doesn't seem to be taken seriously by the show as being a disgusting creature, so i guess that will never change.

Pete Martell · January 5, 2015

It was more character-based stuff that I had some trouble with. Maybe the stuff you mean by saying it was "whitewashed"? For example, it seemed weird to me that Dean wouldn't have been neurotic enough to have at least small stashes of money or even food hidden away in his things, just for his own peace of mind, so that he'd know he wouldn't run out even if John was gone for a few extra days (or god forbid, never came back) or something. Or other contingency plans related to that -- stuff that he'd have told himself he'd pawn or sell if necessary, people in town who he'd marked out as liable to do him a favor in a pinch, or even some routine for getting money or at least *food* from people (even just straight up asking for it!) if he ran short. Or even just basic contingency plans for contacting John and/or Sam if something happened, which he didn't seem to have, either. The apparent lack of a Plan B was weird to me especially because Dean's relatively big on contingency plans in general (*how* many weapons does that man carry on his person at any given time?!). It also would have been OK imo if all his contingency plans had fallen through -- shit happens -- and he'd gotten to a point of real desperation where he just had to try and take what he needed or was just SOL despite everything. But that didn't seem to be the story they were trying to tell?

This is where I think having him as 14 instead of 16 might have helped, even if it still may have been a stretch. I think the idea they were going for was that Dean was a kid, not a machine, so he didn't have all that stuff in the place, he panicked and screwed up. I have mixed feelings about the idea, because I don't think Dean was ever as much of a Sammybot as some fanon makes him (and in the show's messy canon there are several instances of him leaving Sam on his own to go do other stuff), but then I also don't know if he would have lost the food money either. I waved a lot of it off because I liked the idea and I think the character's backstory needed something that was not Sam-focused or about the pained beauty of raising Sam, as every Dean flashback had always been.

I do agree that getting caught for something stupid might have worked better, but then fans would have said the show was trying to destroy Dean and the show was doing "dumb Dean" and any other point would have been drowned out.

It probably would get played as a comedy, because that's how the show does. And I could deal with a comedic episode given all the MoC heaviness and this horribly depressing Claire SL, tbh. Taking a step back, though, it seems strange to me that it would be *fun* to become a kid again in a world that's as dangerous as the show's is.

Even as myself, I wouldn't want to be a fucking kid again. If demons and monsters and things could attack at any time? YEAH, NO. That's already terrifying, so to be in that same context, but smaller, weaker, more ignorant, in less control of oneself? And for Dean especially, it's not like being a kid was all fun and games -- he's got more freedom and less responsibility now, as an adult, than he did back in the day. He just wasn't worn down back when he was just a kid so I guess he could keep his head up pretty well. But to have the heavy heart of an adult with the weakness and vulnerability of being in a child's body?! Nightmare.

I think they might play it for some laughs, mostly at Dean's reaction and Sam's reaction (eg, Sam saying things like, "Now I get to be the big brother and tell you what to do,"), but I'd imagine there would be a lot of sorrow too, especially if they have scenes like someone asking "teen" Dean what he wants to do with his life, or where his parents are, etc.

I still don't know if I believe they'd do this type of episode, but I do want to see how Dylan Everett would play it. I thought he did a great job last time.

rue721 · January 5, 2015

I think they might play it for some laughs, mostly at Dean's reaction and Sam's reaction (eg, Sam saying things like, "Now I get to be the big brother and tell you what to do,"), but I'd imagine there would be a lot of sorrow too, especially if they have scenes like someone asking "teen" Dean what he wants to do with his life, or where his parents are, etc.

I still don't know if I believe they'd do this type of episode, but I do want to see how Dylan Everett would play it. I thought he did a great job last time.

Wouldn't Dean's current life seem like his teenage self's dream life? Sam and Dean are top-notch hunters and still close. They live in this superhero-lair-cum-hobbit-hole. John's dead, but his life's work is completed -- and Dean was the one to pull the trigger on YED. When Dean was a teenager, didn't he want to be just like his father? Well, now he is. A kid wouldn't care about the stuff that Dean actually doesn't like about his life, I don't think. A teenager isn't going to be that worried about stuff like burnout or not being able to settle down. There's gallows humor in that -- I mean that a naive kid would think their life is pretty great and everything that he ever dreamed of, even though from their perspective, there are a lot of problems/limitations in it. In general, I think there's something sad about how small childhood dreams are a lot of the time. But this show isn't huge on gallows humor, so I doubt that's what they would aim for.

I actually think that if they did an aged-down episode like that, it would be a bummer for the adults to see kid!Dean walking around all bright-eyed and hopeful about getting the life that they now have, because it would just emphasize that they were doomed to live this way, and that they have been on this track since long before they could have known better or could have chosen it out of real free will.

But at its worst, the show tends to vacillate wildly between being goofy and maudlin from episode to episode. Where I think an episode with flashbacks or an age-down or anything is most likely to fail is in going too far in either one of those directions.

Anyway, I would actually enjoy seeing adult!Sam and kid!Dean having to work as a team in fighting a MotW. It could be fun/interesting for them to see each others' fighting techniques or try to figure out how to work together, since they would have such a weird mix of un/familiarity with each other. But then, my favorite part of that episode when Henry Winchester came to town was that I thought it was fun how they were all family and sort of knew each other through that, but also were complete strangers to each other. So I guess I just find something about that un/familiar dynamic appealing in general.

What made people start thinking a de-aging storyline is a real possibility? Is that just speculation, or was there a spoiler related to that?

I think the idea they were going for was that Dean was a kid, not a machine, so he didn't have all that stuff in the place, he panicked and screwed up. I have mixed feelings about the idea, because I don't think Dean was ever as much of a Sammybot as some fanon makes him (and in the show's messy canon there are several instances of him leaving Sam on his own to go do other stuff), but then I also don't know if he would have lost the food money either. I waved a lot of it off because I liked the idea and I think the character's backstory needed something that was not Sam-focused or about the pained beauty of raising Sam, as every Dean flashback had always been.

Tbh, I wish they'd had kid!Dean fight a MotW in the flashbacks, because imo that would have tied the episode together better. It would have been interesting to see him investigating and fighting a monster, and trying to keep the other people in the house from getting involved in/knowing about/getting in the way of that hunting stuff, back in the day, in a direct comparison to him doing those things in the present. That would also have made more use out of Sam not being in the flashbacks, imo, because obviously if Sam had been, that would have changed kid!Dean's focus at least somewhat and made the comparison more difficult. The first kiss thing didn't bother me too much in terms of being too innocent, I just don't care about first kisses because who cares about anyone's first kiss? Kind of a weak thing to hang a story on imo.

The reason that the Jean Valjean setup in Bad Boys and John's rescue in the CBGB story ultimately irritate me is because those stories are just no fun. Kids do stupid shit mostly because it's FUN. And tbh, there aren't necessarily a whole lot of consequences, kids mostly land on their feet. Not everything has to be mawkish or have a lesson attached, or tied up in a little bow. What was the lesson to all the stupid shit you or I or anyone did at 14 or 16 or whatever? Or hell, the stupid shit people do at 20 or 24? "Meh, you'll figure it out"? "Bullshitting and persuasion are valuable life skills"? "Don't miss the last bus home, it's more trouble than it's worth"? Not that it doesn't take learning them over and over the hard way to actually absorb them in any case!

If the show is going to try to impart life lessons, I would honestly rather they be life lessons like that. It would probably be more useful to the teenagers/kids watching, anyway! And more fun for everyone. Man, I wish SPN had more joie de vivre altogether.

Pete Martell · January 5, 2015

The first kiss thing didn't bother me too much in terms of being too innocent, I just don't care about first kisses because who cares about anyone's first kiss? Kind of a weak thing to hang a story on imo.

The reason that the Jean Valjean setup in Bad Boys and John's rescue in the CBGB story ultimately irritate me is because those stories are just no fun. Kids do stupid shit mostly because it's FUN. And tbh, there aren't necessarily a whole lot of consequences, kids mostly land on their feet. Not everything has to be mawkish or have a lesson attached, or tied up in a little bow. What was the lesson to all the stupid shit you or I or anyone did at 14 or 16 or whatever? Or hell, the stupid shit people do at 20 or 24? "Meh, you'll figure it out"? "Bullshitting and persuasion are valuable life skills"? "Don't miss the last bus home, it's more trouble than it's worth"? Not that it doesn't take learning them over and over the hard way to actually absorb them in any case!

If the show is going to try to impart life lessons, I would honestly rather they be life lessons like that. It would probably be more useful to the teenagers/kids watching, anyway! And more fun for everyone. Man, I wish SPN had more joie de vivre altogether.

I think Glass used the first kiss as a framework for the life Dean would never have - crushes and dances (I think the scene that worked best of that was when she asked Dean what he actually wanted to do in life...probably the first and last person to ask Dean that question). That's part of what I meant by whitewashing, especially for a 16-year old Dean. But the acting and the simplicity of the writing made it work for me. One of the things that Jensen has always brought to Dean has been purity and clarity, and that's something often overlooked. Dylan brought the same, which is why I was able to believe him as Dean.

As for the rumors - someone on tumblr mentioned it, I think they claimed Jensen wouldn't be in episode 12 very much, and they knew someone who worked on the show, or something like this.

I wish we got to see more fun as well. I like your idea of a young Dean and an adult Sam having to fight a monster together - that could be exciting as well as a way to show their different styles and views. The show just rarely seems to want viewers to see a happy moment, especially from their formative years, other than things like "Swan Song." I guess it's easier to go with angst, not to mention that their lives didn't seem very happy so a happy moment would seem jarring. I don't mind the angst, but I mind it when it's just there for big emo woe misery and is never resolved. Your comments about kids being crazy and why don't we see that reminds me of "Dark Side of the Moon" (ugh) when we learned Sam ran away, and the show turned this into one of the most depressing, miserable scenes of all 10 seasons.

I'm not sure Dean would ever see his current life as happy, mostly because Mary was gone, but I do wonder what a 8-9 year old Dean would think of it.

Demented Daisy · January 5, 2015

TVLine's Winter spoilers -- but nothing new.

After the fall finale's blood bath, the Mark of Cain promises to be an even bigger issue than ever for Dean. Maybe Cain, himself, can help with that when Timothy Omundson (Psych) reprises his role? Also, Felicia Day's Charlie returns from Oz "under precarious circumstances," co-executive producer Robbie Thompson previews. "She's brought something back that's very dangerous. She teams up with the boys to track that dangerous thing down and hunt with them, basically." Adds EP Robert Singer: "Let's just say that it's a Charlie we haven't seen before." Meanwhile, Rowena will continue to meddle in her son Crowley's business.

catrox14 · January 5, 2015

I think the only way for a body swap episode to be interesting would be for Sam and Dean to spend a freaky Friday as each other. And I don't mean just swapping meatsuit. They would have to be the other person for a day, and live in each other's memories. Maybe then they would truly see each other's perspective.

Aeryn13 · January 5, 2015

As for the rumors - someone on tumblr mentioned it, I think they claimed Jensen wouldn't be in episode 12 very much, and they knew someone who worked on the show, or something like this.

During most of the time when they shot episode twelve, he was in Los Angeles (or was it Miami?), not in Vancouver anyway. There were photos of some events or the likes he visited. And he only flew in for two days or so of shooting. You could follow it on several twitters and with the now requisite fan encounters at the airport.

I`m not exactly sure how many shooting days he had of the normal 8 for episode 12 but going by the timeline, not more than 3. A de-aged-Dean episode would fit in with that.

SueB · January 5, 2015

I don't know if it supports de-aged but it definitely supports an older-Dean-lite episode. Whether it's flashback or de-aging.

From spoilertv, http://stvplus.com/show/154/Supernatural#episodes

episode list:

TBA    S10E15 - The Things They Carried

TBA    S10E14 - The Executioner's Song

10th Feb 2015    S10E13 - Halt & Catch Fire

3rd Feb 2015    S10E12 - About a Boy

27th Jan 2015    S10E11 - There's No Place Like Home

20th Jan 2015    S10E10 - The Hunter Games

Pete Martell · January 5, 2015

Random as hell that they're naming an episode after that AMC show (I know it's not just the name of that show). The show has a bisexual lead character, so I wonder if someone is having a poke at the eternal bi Dean theories...

catrox14 · January 5, 2015

So the Cain episode is called "the executioners song".. Hmmm

SueB · January 6, 2015

The Hunters Game - Metatron, Claire plotting, and I expect random hunters attacking Dean or something. Maybe Claire somehow calls in the equivalent of an air strike on Dean by tipping off Hunters that he's whack and needs to be put down. Though how she would know to reach hunters I have no clue. I'm hopeful for this episode because John Badham is directing.

There's no place like home - Charlie return but different. I'm speculating possessed by the wizard. I'm looking forward to them fixing Charlie and hopefully getting her take on the MoC story.

About a Boy - young Dean story, either flashback or de-aging. I'm hoping flashback with more insight into Dean's motivation. While I agree that Bad Boys was marred by the Director's choice to have Dean be 16 (note, it's the director who cast Dylan I believe) and the poor too-young casting of Sam, I liked the story Glass wrote.

Halt and Catch Fire - other rumored title was 'iDie'. I'm expecting someone to go catatonic and stop functioning. Dean is the obvious choice but it's pretty Dean-centric these days so it could be someone else. Maybe a witch-based story (I.e. Something Rowena can do).

The executioners song - My guess is the executioner is either Cain or Dean and 'song' could simply be exposition of POV. Supernatural isn't too concerned with their titles been spot on.

Phebemarie · January 6, 2015

The Things They Carried is the title of a famous book about the Vietnam War. The Executioner's Song is book about Gary Gilmore, a murderer who was sentenced to death in Utah in 1977.

DittyDotDot · January 6, 2015

The Executioner's Song was also made into a movie--maybe made for TV--which if memory serves starred Tommy Lee Jones. I barely remember it, but your post reminded me that I never got around to reading the book.

ETA: Forgot to mention that Gary Gilmore was the first execution after the reinstatement of the death penalty in the mid-'70s.

Edited January 6, 2015 by DittyDotDot

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