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Spoilers With Speculation

SueB

By SueB
in Supernatural

ohjoy
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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catrox14

catrox14

His hair wasn't that that short a year ago. It was long on top. It's been what at least 6 months or in show since Dean took on the MoC? I think it's easy enough to fanwank that since Cain is unique and immortal his hair grows faster than normal. Or he purposefully kept it shorter in Collett memory but since he broke his promise to he became depressed and didn't cut it.

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PeterKahlke
PeterKahlke

NEXT ON SUPERNATURAL Sam and Dean search for the yellow-eyed thing that killed their mom.

devlin
devlin

I don’t care who JA is going to be playing. I could seriously watch this guy read the phone book and be completely enthralled. I am just looking forward to some powerhouse acting full of nuances by wh

gonzosgirrl
gonzosgirrl

So, so over it. You're a big boy - if you don't agree, put up or shut your judgey piehole.

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catrox14

catrox14

Dean didn't really weaken Alistair at all with the torture so to me that one wasn't particularly balanced kill episode unlike them killing Ruby together. Not only did Dean s torture of Alistair accomplish nothing it did nothing to help Dean and actually made his life worse. At least Sam got to kill Jake during that final Battle. And it took Ghost!John to help distract Azalel long enough for Dean to get the gun to kill him. I would just like to have Dean give Alistair comeuppance whilst sporting the demon eyes, for my own satisfaction.

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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

I would just like to have Dean give Alistair comeuppance whilst sporting the demon eyes, for my own satisfaction.

 

But wouldn't that be the exact opposite of comeuppance since that's always what Alistair wanted was for Dean to become a big bad demon? I think Alistair would only find delight in knowing Dean became what Dean never wanted to be.

 

 

Oh...I like depressed and didn't cut it.  Like we find him drinking from a bottle, hair a mess. 

 

Oh, pooh on you guys with your logical logic and reasonable reasoning...a stylish hat people! A beret, maybe a fedora or a beanie....ooh, a doo-rag, that's the ticket! Hee!

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catrox14

catrox14

But wouldn't that be the exact opposite of comeuppance since that's always what Alistair wanted was for Dean to become a big bad demon? I think Alistair would only find delight in knowing Dean became what Dean never wanted to be.

That is a fair point. I think it's different because Alistair wasn't able to make him a demon himself despite all that he did. But part of the goal was to get him to break the first seal. So to that point Alistair already won a part of the battle. I always perceived the relationship between Alistair and Dean as personal; he seemed to be Deans primary torturer and IMO he took pride in believing he was the one that carved Dean into a new animal. He had all the power and control over Dean. I think it would be a blow to Alistair ego to think he couldn't accomplish actually turning Dean into an actual demon himself. Since Dean was a Knight of Hell apparently,Alistair is nothing but a grunt demon on a lower tier than Dean. Unless the show includes Deans hell time as to why he was worthy of the mark, I don't think Alistair has much to be happy about or to feel pride in.

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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

That is a fair point. I think it's different because Alistair wasn't able to make him a demon himself despite all that he did. But part of the goal was to get him to break the first seal. So to that point Alistair already won a part of the battle. I always perceived the relationship between Alistair and Dean as personal; he seemed to be Deans primary torturer and IMO he took pride in believing he was the one that carved Dean into a new animal. He had all the power and control over Dean. I think it would be a blow to Alistair ego to think he couldn't accomplish actually turning Dean into an actual demon himself. Since Dean was a Knight of Hell apparently,Alistair is nothing but a grunt demon on a lower tier than Dean. Unless the show includes Deans hell time as to why he was worthy of the mark, I don't think Alistair has much to be happy about or to feel pride in.

 

I think Alistair just liked fucking with Dean's head and what would be a better mind-fuck than laughing at Dean with black eyes? I think comeuppance would be Dean, as a human, fucking with Alistair's head. Although, I'm not particularly interested in Dean getting to dole out any comeuppance other than what he's already done; I rarely find that giving one comeuppance is actually all that satisfying to the person that doles it out and generally gives the receiver far more importance than they deserve. I'm a firm believer in "living well" is the best comeuppance one can dole out.

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catrox14

catrox14

*sigh*  From the SPN Facebook page:

It may or may not be a truthful teaser because promo monkeys are dipshits.

I think Alistair just liked fucking with Dean's head and what would be a better mind-fuck than laughing at Dean with black eyes? I think comeuppance would be Dean, as a human, fucking with Alistair's head. Although, I'm not particularly interested in Dean getting to dole out any comeuppance other than what he's already done; I rarely find that giving one comeuppance is actually all that satisfying to the person that doles it out and generally gives the receiver far more importance than they deserve. I'm a firm believer in "living well" is the best comeuppance one can dole out.

Dean was never set up to beat Alistair as a human. And since he's already gone darkside I want him to use it to his advantage.

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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

I guess it all depends on how you look at it. Dean may not have actually killed Alistair, but Dean, as a human, helped foil all Alistair's plans. Dean, as a human, has continued to live his life the way he wanted rather than how Alistair wanted him to. I don't think Dean needs that "advantage," he's already long-bested Alistair without an "advantage" IMO.

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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

(edited)

 

I would just like to have Dean give Alistair comeuppance whilst sporting the demon eyes, for my own satisfaction.

 

I would love that as well, actually if Dean did it as human or demon, I wouldn`t care but I doubt the show would ever revisit the character. Like you, it bothered me that they gave the kill to Sam. Something more for Dean to feel inferior about since SuperSam did it. Personally, I openly admit that I`m a vengeful person so giving someone comeuppance - or at the very least them getting it somehow fills me with great satisfaction. Even if I`m down myself, that is a great pick-me-up. On the other hand "living well" doesn`t really do it for me because I can`t even do it until I exacted some form of "revenge". So I was really disappointed that Dean didn`t get that closure himself. 

 

As for the teaser, somehow I`m not convinced Dean becomes a demon again. What would that accomplish? Another pointless cure story, this time in the span of three minutes instead of three episodes? We know a big focus of the episode will be Cas and Claire, Dean and the MOC didn`t even make it into the official summary so it will likely book-end the episode. Possibly be the cliffhanger.

 

But then I expect resolution already in ep 10 because after that we have a "Charlie saves the day, this time likely being a super-duper-hunter after Oz" episode. And lets make no mistake, when it`s a Charlie-episode, everyone else is just window dressing. No way would Thompson allow his alter ego not to outshine everyone and everything. What room would there be for MOC-angst in an episode like this?

 

After that it`s gonna be episode 12 which must be very Sam-centric, according to a tweet by Glass. And one where Jensen seemed to have missed 95 % of filming it so it stands to reason Dean has maybe one scene in it.

 

The placing of the episodes alone makes me think whatever "darkness" they are going for here will be on and done with in the span of a couple minutes. So really, how juicy could it be as a footnote really?

Edited by Aeryn13
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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

(edited)

It could be transfered to Cas. Or even to Sam though at the moment I find that less likely. But storyline transference from Dean to someone else? That goes with this show like Wayward Son with the penultimate episodes, meta-episodes and somewhat tasteless jokes.

 

Besides, I think the promo material right now holds the same meaning like "Year of the Deanmon". Which translated to three episodes and a lame-ass cure. Misha says trying to make the Mark gone will be a "big mission for the rest of the Season". That could equally be hyperbolic and he is talking about the episodes being shot now. Besides, if Cas is "instrumental in de-Marking Dean", then that sounds more like a done deal. Afterwards it could be still be a question to "make the Mark gone". Just not from Dean but from another character who got handed that storyline.

 

After being played for a fool regarding Dean`s storylines so many times in a row - I can`t even count the times where there were vague or no spoilers at all for Dean and yet I`ve read "wait for it, something will come later" and not once, not a single one time something came later in those Seasons - I can just not not expect anything but the worst. So far, even IF they surprised me, it was by doing worse than what I figured would be the worst. Other times it just met the quota of "the worst". 

Edited by Aeryn13
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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

Quote from Misha article:

 

"This gives him a stay of execution so he's got disposable batteries. He's got a new set; they're Duracells; they should last for a little while [but] not forever, so it will be an issue that resurfaces again [but] it takes awhile," Collins said.

 

Ditty, are you Misha Collins in disguise?  ;-)

 

So, is Cas going to disappear for part of the season because he's looking for Cain?  I hope not, though they are so damn fond of recycling stories.

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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

(edited)

Misha article in the Hollywood Reporter:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/supernaturals-misha-collins-castiel-is-753785

 

Sounds like more than 1 episode dealing with the Mark. In fact I see zero evidence of anything other than a constant statement that the Mark is a big deal for S10. And with Cain coming in EP14, that to me is the EARLIEST possible de-Marking.

 

I agree SueB. I think this mid-season finale will be the episode that brings it to the forefront. I'm thinking this will be the mission for the second half, more or less.

 

 

ETA: I wish I was only as half as clever as Misha Collins. If nothing else I'd like the time he seems to have on his hands. He does seem to have some time to do his very elaborate gags.

Edited by DittyDotDot
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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

ETA: I wish I was only as half as clever as Misha Collins. 

 

Nah, your battery metaphor was much more eloquent than his.  ;-)

 

Did anyone seriously think the Mark wouldn't be dealt with in the second half of the season?  I always took it as a given.

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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

(edited)

 

Did anyone seriously think the Mark wouldn't be dealt with in the second half of the season?  I always took it as a given.

 

I know the Winter-Finale aka today`s episode is kinda considered to mark the end of the first half of a Season but for me it`s more like the end of the first third of the Season. But even if we say the "second half of the Season" would be anything from 10 to 23 and the Mark of Cain was resolved in ep 13/14-ish or so, I don`t think in the end it plays a big part in the "second half" of the entire Season.

 

Just like Demon!Dean didn`t play a big part in the first half of the Season. He just didn`t. If the resolution of the Mark gets roughly the same treatment, I think we can say "it was in the Season". Like the muscial. Like the clue episode. Those were there as well.

 

 

They stated it numerous times that it would be a big deal the second half of the season.

 

Carver once explicitely stated that Demon!Dean would be around for "the majority of the first half of the Season". And seriously, how bad at actual math can you be? Or how much of a liar? So I`d take "big part in second half" with a HUGE grain of salt as well. 

Edited by Aeryn13
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rue721

rue721

Did anyone seriously think the Mark wouldn't be dealt with in the second half of the season?  I always took it as a given.

 

Yes, I agree -- it's their mytharc this season. SPN seasons are more or less always structured the same, I think. The first 2-3 episodes and the last 2-3 episodes -- the first and last mini-arcs of the season -- are always about the mytharc(s). I think we'll probably get an episode here or there about it throughout, too, just like we'll get an episode here or there focused on guest stars (like this past episode, Hibbing 911, or Charlie's episode(s) last season, or Kevin's episode(s) the season before), and a bunch of MotW's otherwise. I find that structure kind of weird and choppy, it doesn't do much to build momentum imo. It's also kind of outdated nowadays, because everyone has been doing 3-episode mini-arcs for years now (instead of two-parters, etc), and the fall finale has been gradually becoming a really big deal ever since Lost's split season way back when, so that seasons are now more or less two mini-seasons instead of one big whole, imo. But hey, SPN's season structure has  obviously worked for them and it seems to me like they generally plan to stick with it for the foreseeable, albeit with some nods to the changing times. Personally, my favorite episodes are the MotW's anyway, and I usually like the guest star episodes, too, so it usually ends up that I enjoy lots of the episodes of the season individually anyway. It's only on re-watch or when binge-watching that I really appreciate the mytharcs anyway. Long mytharcs don't generally work well when you're watching week-to-week, they're too stretched out imo and can't maintain momentum or a good pace (that's not just for SPN, I think that's for shows in general).

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SueB

SueB

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I'm not sure how/if we have a cliffhanger tonight because I thought the Charlie episode was next.  But usually the mid-season is arc-y and cliff-y.

 

My apologies to the English majors who are driven nuts by people like me who make up random words.

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NoWillToResist

NoWillToResist

Oh, pooh on you guys with your logical logic and reasonable reasoning...a stylish hat people! A beret, maybe a fedora or a beanie....ooh, a doo-rag, that's the ticket! Hee!

 

Pfft. Seems to me that Cain could just be all "um, yeah I grew my hair. Can you blame me? It looks fucking fantastic this way, amirite?"

 

Sam would probably have to concede defeat and cut his hair since even his magnificent locks don't hold a candle to Cain's. :D

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rue721

rue721

I hope that Cain wears his hair down and goes hatless, because if these super macho dudes get together to talk about murder and jawbone/knives and whatever, and they take time out to ask Cain just *how* he has such gorgeous hair and what's going on with the length, I will love it. In that case, Cain can just smile coyly and say he's trying something different. Then when the guys excuse themselves to go to the bathroom real quick, they can discuss whether they think it's a weave.

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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

But it`s how the writers see the character. The nepotism duo pretty much said it outright on the DVD commentary. Sam is their sainted hero, Dean is this.

 

So, going by the promo he will be off the reservation for the next few eps and they will bring in Metatron to ask about a "cure". Why in all the heavens did they not only cut Demon!Dean so terribly short and didnd`t have him do anything dark when a couple of episodes later, they make human!Dean under the Mark`s influence go kill-crazy? They could have done that storyline with Demon!Dean. Heck, they could have made him lay dormant for the last few flller episodes.

 

Then again Dean never got much if any whitewash. I will still say that isn`t really him because he has a supernatural influence on him. If DemonBloodSam gets an excuse, MOC!Dean does as well.

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rue721

rue721

Ugh Metatron. Hopefully, they'll finally kill him. Why are they interrogating him outside of his cell anyway? Why's he wearing street clothes? Are they WORKING WITH HIM? I don't even know why I find him so irritating, but I've been over that dude since the dumb stuff with Naomi and the Dentist Chair and Drill of Doom (at the latest).

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SueB

SueB

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Frame by Frame, it sure looks like the kid who played young Dean (Dylan...) is there for a frame.


 

Fuck that preview with "Born Killer" about Dean. Gods that pisses me off. NO SHOW Dean is not a born killer.  Ugh.  I'll be back later.

Perhaps they are referring to his resurrection.  Cause then yes, he was reborn as a killer. 

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Pete Martell

Pete Martell

But it`s how the writers see the character. The nepotism duo pretty much said it outright on the DVD commentary. Sam is their sainted hero, Dean is this.

 

So, going by the promo he will be off the reservation for the next few eps and they will bring in Metatron to ask about a "cure". Why in all the heavens did they not only cut Demon!Dean so terribly short and didnd`t have him do anything dark when a couple of episodes later, they make human!Dean under the Mark`s influence go kill-crazy? They could have done that storyline with Demon!Dean. Heck, they could have made him lay dormant for the last few flller episodes.

 

Then again Dean never got much if any whitewash. I will still say that isn`t really him because he has a supernatural influence on him. If DemonBloodSam gets an excuse, MOC!Dean does as well.

 

I think it's because they wanted to show Dean struggling with the Mark. Demon Dean wouldn't struggle with kills. Even a demon tempered by Dean's humanity would be hard-pressed to go through 9 episodes without doing some really terrible things. Most demons likely would have killed those guys and then raped Claire themselves. 

 

The problem with demon blood Sam is he really didn't get an excuse from a lot of fans, no matter how much the show sort of papered over his behavior. And it did heavy damage to the character and to Sam's role on the show. Presumably the show does not want to make that mistake with Dean, their main POV character and the heart of the show. 

 

Killing while in a damaged state and struggling with what you're doing is different from the fun of the kill. I think that's why they have Dean the way he is now, rather than as a demon. 

 

As for Sam as the sainted hero, I think it's a basic outline the show works with - Sam is the one who is supposed to be the hope, while Dean is the one who bleeds - but I'm not sure how much it goes beyond outlines. I can't remember Buckner and Ross-Lemming writing any episodes with Sam as a big hero. Even the episode where he had to do a trial singlehandedly was more about Dean and Dean's sacrifice.

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SueB

SueB

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So they shot out of order again and the Charlie episode is NOT next.

http://i.imgur.com/DU6Bkqw.jpg

This makes more sense from a tone perspective. It was also directed by John Badham who did First Born. I'm looking forward to some excellent fight scenes. I suspect Dean by the water with an ax (sorry, the Clue episode ruined me ) were clips from this show. Last night was also the first night we heard the name of this episode.

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

Frame by Frame, it sure looks like the kid who played young Dean (Dylan...) is there for a frame.

Perhaps they are referring to his resurrection.  Cause then yes, he was reborn as a killer. 

 

If they are going for Dean being reborn as killer that matches the comments by the Nepotism Duo to which Aeryn13 referred.  One of them, Lemming I think, said specifically that being a killer was in Dean's DNA (I'll have to find the comments to reference) so she must mean either Dean Winchester 1.0 was a born killer in HIS DNA or  to your point, that resurrected!Dean now had changed DNA by means of the Mark and death and resurrection, which means our  Dean Winchester 1.0 is really most sincerely dead with no hope of recovery.  I know Lemming didn't write this episode but if that is representative of the overall trajectory or viewpoint that is coming out of the writers room that's a huge problem for me. 

Edited by catrox14
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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

I doubt there's really a representative viewpoint coming out of the writer's room on much of anything dealing with character--plot, maybe. I think that's why the show is so fractured in message and tone is each writer has their own ideas on these things instead of the group adopting a cohesive thought process. Even if the show comes out and says Dean was "born" a killer, I won't ever believe it; they can say it all they want, doesn't make it true in my mind. Killers are made through life experiences, IMO, not born as such.  

 

However, I suspect they are speaking more metaphorically and it's more representative of how Dean sees himself rather than the show labeling Dean as intrinsically evil.

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catrox14

catrox14

Being a killer pretty much is in Dean's DNA, through Mary and the Campbells.

And yet he has the Winchester line too. She was raised a hunter of monsters and demons just like Sam and Dean. Sam is also from the same bloodline and yet Sam has managed to not be tagged as born killer even when he was soulless and hopped up demon blood.

The viewpoints of these characters are largely driven by Carver and Singer along with the writers and to turn Dean into a demon is pretty telling, aside from trying to find a way to extend the show.

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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

(edited)

 

Being a killer pretty much is in Dean's DNA, through Mary and the Campbells.

 

I disagree. Resurrected!Samuel notwithstanding - that dude was a wackjob - what was there onscreen showing that Mary or her parents were bloodthirsty sociopaths who were born evil? Because that, to me, is what the statement "born a killer" means. And yeah, what about Sam, too saintly for it again?

 

What I would agree with is that Dean has a warrior mentality now. If he would have always had that vs. his life experiences shaping him is a nature vs. nurture argument and I`m always coming down heavily on the side of nurture.

 

 

The viewpoints of these characters are largely driven by Carver and Singer along with the writers and to turn Dean into a demon is pretty telling, aside from trying to find a way to extend the show.

 

I agree. I can`t imagine a writer who likes a character (not a villain, that is) ever assessing them as "a born killer" and basically claiming their entire core is rotten and evil. But if they do look at the character as basically a cross between a weak loser and an evil psycho, especially compared to Sam who for some reason is the epitome of wonderfulness, it explains the writing on this show. Where they got a problem is the acting because Jensen is not playing Dean as someone who has always been purely evil and nothing but evil deep down. 

 

 

Actually, it's not the writers at all. It's the promo monkeys. They probably thought it was cool and primitive or something.

 

I do think the writers have little to do with putting the promos together but since the exact same sentiment was expressed by writers - and the wife of the co-showrunner to boot so I`m guessing they pretty much share - I`d say it just overlaps. 

 

Kripke IMO thought of Dean as heroic, just a heroic sidekick not worth as much as Sam but at least somewhat admirable. But the new writers IMO see no good or heroic qualities whatsoever in the character. Not a single one. 

Edited by Aeryn13
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SueB

SueB

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Found a better spoiler summary source (Jessica on Tumblr: "I believe in the little tree topper"): http://ibelieveinthelittletreetopper.tumblr.com/post/104847883843/season-10-spoiler-sheet     
 
Key points for next few episodes (formatting adjusted for ease of reading). Jessica's list is longer but everything is unclear post 10.14
 

Episode: 10x10  “The Hunter Games.”
Written by Eugenie Ross Lemming and Brad Buckner. Director: John Badham. Airdate: January 20
Guest stars: Katherine Love Newton (Claire), Curtis Armstrong (Metatron)
Other Spoilers: Cas will be in this epsiode.
 
Episode 10x11 “There’s No Place Like Home”
Written by Robbie Thompson. Director: : Phil Sgriccia.
Guest Stars: Felicia Day (Charlie), Carter Kinsella (the Wizard).
Other Spoilers: Charlie brings back something dangerous from Oz. Filmed out of order, before 10x10.
 
Episode  10x12 Title: “About a Boy”
Written by Adam Glass. Director: Serge Ladouceur.
Guest Stars: Rumored/suspected - Dylan Everett as Young Dean?
Other Spoilers: Set reports indicate there was a broment in/by the impala.
 
Episode 10x13 (currently filming) Title unknown.
Written by Eric Charmello and Nicole Snyder. Director: John Showalter
 
Episode 10x14 Title unknown                                                                                                                                                            Written by Robert Berens. Director: Phil Sgriccia
Guest Stars: Timothy Omundson (Cain)


So I was WRONG about Charlie being it two episodes (at least right away, Thompson definitely implies she lives thru this first episode and could be back in an interview), it's Claire.  Which makes sense because Claire's story was not wrapped up last night.

 

Which makes me think that it'll at least spend the first part of the episode wrapping up the mess they were in when the credits rolled.  I really hope they address some of the logistics (like bodies, what to do with Claire, etc...). It's also mytharc heavy based on the writing duo.  Robbie, of course, is writing Charlie. 

 

The next duo (Charmelo and Synder) don't have the best episodes IMO

- Ask Jeeves (2014) ... (written by)
- The Purge (2014) ... (written by)
- Dog Dean Afternoon (2013) ... (written by)
- My Heart Will Go On (2011) ... (written by)
- Mannequin 3: The Reckoning (2011) ... (written by)
- You Can't Handle the Truth (2010) ... (story) / (teleplay)

 

But Bobo is writing the Cain episode so I'm excited for that.

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Pete Martell

Pete Martell

(edited)

I disagree. Resurrected!Samuel notwithstanding - that dude was a wackjob - what was there onscreen showing that Mary or her parents were bloodthirsty sociopaths who were born evil? Because that, to me, is what the statement "born a killer" means. And yeah, what about Sam, too saintly for it again?

 

What I would agree with is that Dean has a warrior mentality now. If he would have always had that vs. his life experiences shaping him is a nature vs. nurture argument and I`m always coming down heavily on the side of nurture.

 

I agree. I can`t imagine a writer who likes a character (not a villain, that is) ever assessing them as "a born killer" and basically claiming their entire core is rotten and evil. But if they do look at the character as basically a cross between a weak loser and an evil psycho, especially compared to Sam who for some reason is the epitome of wonderfulness, it explains the writing on this show. Where they got a problem is the acting because Jensen is not playing Dean as someone who has always been purely evil and nothing but evil deep down. 

 

I do think the writers have little to do with putting the promos together but since the exact same sentiment was expressed by writers - and the wife of the co-showrunner to boot so I`m guessing they pretty much share - I`d say it just overlaps. 

 

Kripke IMO thought of Dean as heroic, just a heroic sidekick not worth as much as Sam but at least somewhat admirable. But the new writers IMO see no good or heroic qualities whatsoever in the character. Not a single one. 

 

Being a "born killer" isn't necessarily about being evil and bloodthirsty. Mary was literally raised to hunt and kill. That's one of the reasons she wanted any other life for her children. And Dean has always struggled with this, with whether he is just there to hunt and kill and save, or to live a life of his own. It's never really been Sam's story as much.

 

I don't really get the idea from the material that Sam is a big hero and Dean isn't. Even the reason most people cited (the trials) ultimately became about Sam being suicidal.

 

To be honest I think whether Eugenie Ross-Leming is the wife of the EP is meaningless here. Other than her having a job writing episodes, I don't get the impression she has huge power over the show itself. No more than any other writer. I doubt she's whispering ideas in his ear. I don't think she gives a shit about Supernatural at all.

 

I think Kripke saw Dean as heroic, but as being a jerk with a soft spot - his main soft spot being kids, or his mother, or most of all, his brother. There were even controversies in that era over whether the script was saying Dean was a dick.

 

I feel like Kripke only ever saw Dean as in support to Sam, which meant that Dean was treated like trash when the script called for the story to focus on supporting Sam or on Dean trying to help Sam with his mistakes. That meant Bobby (AKA the writers) blaming Dean for being choked and beaten near-death. That meant an influenced Sam (AKA the writers) shaming Dean for being tortured and being weak, which was part of Dean eventually realizing he wasn't the main hero, Sam was, so he had to just get in line. That meant Cas beating the stuffing out of Dean and telling him he'd rather commit suicide than be around Dean ever again, and then proceeding to commit suicide, so that Dean would realize he had to get in line and stop questioning Sam's plans.

 

Kripke even had to come out and say on the record that he wasn't trying to say Dean was a bad person or a "dick" (after Yellow Fever).

 

Say what you will about Carver, but I haven't seen him treat Dean this way in his time as showrunner. 

 

Nothing that TPTB have ever said about the show has matched up to what we see onscreen. Remember all the early interviews Carver gave about Sam's story with Amelia? What does it amount to onscreen now? 

 

"Sam hit a dog."

 

If TPTB truly saw Dean as a vile monster, nothing more than a corpse-maker to Sam's angel-on-high, then Jensen would have left the show years ago.

Edited by Pete Martell
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Pete Martell

Pete Martell

The viewpoints of these characters are largely driven by Carver and Singer along with the writers and to turn Dean into a demon is pretty telling, aside from trying to find a way to extend the show.

 

Becoming a demon isn't about being a bad person. The show's never said Dean is a bad person so is therefore a demon. Just as they never said if Sam became a demon it's because he was bad.

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

Becoming a demon isn't about being a bad person. The show's never said Dean is a bad person so is therefore a demon. Just as they never said if Sam became a demon it's because he was bad.

Being a demon by default means you have become an evil twisted creature. What demon in the show has been shown to be truly good person like Dean has been portrayed as despite his flaws. Sam never went full demon despite what Crowley said and being soulless is not the same as being literally, actually demonized . Meg had her reasons for working with the boys. As does Crowley. I just can't see how Dean being a demon and now a murdering murderer who murders is remotely saying Dean is a good person.

Edited by catrox14
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Pete Martell

Pete Martell

Being a demon by default means you have become an evil twisted creature. What demon in the show has been shown to be truly good person like Dean has been portrayed as despite his flaws. Sam never went full demon despite what Crowley said and being soulless is not the same as being literally, actually demonized . Meg had her reasons for working with the boys. As does Crowley. I just can't see how Dean being a demon and now a murdering murderer who murders is remotely saying Dean is a good person.

 

It's not about demons being good, it's about the idea I quoted that implied the show must think Dean is a bad person if they made him a demon.

 

Ruby told Dean before he went to hell that you are twisted into being a demon. Nothing we know about her life really suggested she was a bad person before she died either. 

 

If the show was that committed to showing that Dean is bad, or that being bad made him a demon, I think they would have gone much further in what he did when he was a demon. They could have had him do terrible things, and I'm sure a lot of viewers would have been fine with this and praised the show for being "edgy" or whatever. Instead he was, by demon standards, very restrained.

I just can't see how Dean being a demon and now a murdering murderer who murders is remotely saying Dean is a good person.

 

Sam and Dean are both murderers. As is Cas. Hell, Cas stalked and killed a woman. The show still treats them as good people, unless one quick promo is the official bible of the show.

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AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

What demon in the show has been shown to be truly good person like Dean has been portrayed as despite his flaws. Sam never went full demon despite what Crowley said and being soulless is not the same as being literally, actually demonized.

 

Which is exactly why I'm glad they didn't have Dean a demon for very long. If Dean was the only one ever - besides Cain after a 1000 or so years of bloodshed - to be a "demon who does good," I would've rolled my eyes. Demons by their nature don't generally want to do "good" and are more prone to chaos, so a storyline where Dean somehow did good as a demon would've rang as either false or eye-roll-inducing for me. My opinion only, I reaize.

 

As for Sam: Sam became a demon potentially for a hot minute in the season 4 finale, but I don't know if Crowley knows about that. Maybe once demon, Crowley can recognize that in someone's soul? :: shrug ::

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NoWillToResist

NoWillToResist

Found a better spoiler summary source (Jessica on Tumblr: "I believe in the little tree topper"): http://ibelieveinthelittletreetopper.tumblr.com/post/104847883843/season-10-spoiler-sheet     

 Episode: 10x10  “The Hunter Games.”

Written by Eugenie Ross Lemming and Brad Buckner. Director: John Badham. Airdate: January 20

Guest stars: Katherine Love Newton (Claire), Curtis Armstrong (Metatron)

Other Spoilers: Cas will be in this epsiode.

Episode 10x11 “There’s No Place Like Home”

Written by Robbie Thompson. Director: : Phil Sgriccia.

Guest Stars: Felicia Day (Charlie), Carter Kinsella (the Wizard).

Other Spoilers: Charlie brings back something dangerous from Oz. Filmed out of order, before 10x10.

Episode  10x12 Title: “About a Boy”

Written by Adam Glass. Director: Serge Ladouceur.

Guest Stars: Rumored/suspected - Dylan Everett as Young Dean?

Other Spoilers: Set reports indicate there was a broment in/by the impala.

Episode 10x13 (currently filming) Title unknown.

Written by Eric Charmello and Nicole Snyder. Director: John Showalter

Episode 10x14 Title unknown                                                                                                                                                            Written by Robert Berens. Director: Phil Sgriccia

Guest Stars: Timothy Omundson (Cain)

 

Hm...Thompson, Glass and Berens writing 3 out of the next 5 eps? I am particularly interested in ep 14 - the return of Cain is being written by Berens???

 

*must not get hopes up...must not get hopes up*

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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

http://tvline.com/2014/12/10/nashville-season-3-spoilers-hayden-panettiere-maternity-leave/

Supernatural fans need some scoop on Dean, please! —Luann

 

Witchy Rowena didn’t come into contact with the hunter in the fall finale, but that could soon change given her son Crowley’s connection to Dean. “I think most mothers like to interfere in their children’s business,” her portrayer Ruth Connell says. “So Rowena gets to do that in the episodes to come.”

 

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SueB

SueB

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Ah the promo monkeys. What, no way to suggest eating babies or hot monkey sex? They must be disappointed. I swear, I really appreciate the Dada-esque Mad Man promos. Mathew Weiner somehow got control of them so they usually consisted of people opening doors, answering phones or saying 'what?' These CW guys make equally irrelevant to the plot promos but they also mislead. I think it's worse this year because it's less action and more character driven.

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ohjoy
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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