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SueB

By SueB
in Supernatural

ohjoy
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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rue721

rue721

I am really curious why you think Cas and Dean as friends makes no sense.

I think Dean asking Cas to smite him makes perfect sense. Cas is Dean's best friend. They have an amazing history of being war buddies and friends. who better than your best friend who has the power to do it.

 

Not to say that anybody has to agree with me, I know they're beloved by many people and that's fine. Their friendship doesn't make sense to me personally, though, because they don't really seem like they have anything in common personality-wise or like they're on the same wavelength, and they don't interact like friends imo. There's also this weird power dynamic where usually Cas is infinitely more powerful than Dean because he's an angel. Dean literally can't even look at real!Cas because he'd burn his eyes out -- already that seems weird imo. It also seems like there have been so many fairly long periods of Dean being pissed at Cas for something that Cas has done (usually to Sam), during which Cas seems to spend so many episodes trying to do nice-and-usually-sacrificial things for Dean and then looking at him all sadfais and asking if it's enough and Dean telling him it's not. Who has that sort of dynamic with their bff? I think that Dean is usually justified when he's pissed at Cas, but the whole thing of Cas then sort of groveling and eventually redeeming himself in Dean's eyes is just strange to me in the context of a close/loving friendship. It would also always get under my skin when the other angels would refer to Dean or the Winchesters as basically Cas's pet(s), I guess because tbh I do feel like Cas and his unconditional love and sense of responsibility and lack of interest/hope in reciprocity when it comes to Dean does honestly remind me more of my relationship with my cat (who I'm a hopeless sucker for) than my relationship with my bff (who's like a sister to me). Idk, it just doesn't work like a friendship to my eyes, and I don't really see any (personal) basis for why they'd be friends rather than just people that respect each other or allies. I guess I don't see the chemistry that other people see, either. YMMV.

 

Anyway, if I take it as a given that Cas and Dean are best friends, that the show is earnest about that (which I think it is), then I think that Dean should be a more caring/gentle toward Cas and not give him the responsibility of keeping track of whether Dean's getting out of line and murdering him or whatever if he does. That's a job for somebody whose judgment you trust but don't have a strong personal/emotional relationship with (the request seems like a sort of supernatural DNR, to me). It's already going to break Cas's heart if Dean were to have to be taken out, how's he going to feel if it's supposed to be at his hands?

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PeterKahlke
PeterKahlke

NEXT ON SUPERNATURAL Sam and Dean search for the yellow-eyed thing that killed their mom.

devlin
devlin

I don’t care who JA is going to be playing. I could seriously watch this guy read the phone book and be completely enthralled. I am just looking forward to some powerhouse acting full of nuances by wh

gonzosgirrl
gonzosgirrl

So, so over it. You're a big boy - if you don't agree, put up or shut your judgey piehole.

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

Oh do t get me wrong. I'm not saying you have to agree with anyone. I was just curious. Sorry if my question came across differently. Thanks for responding! I think Cas has been equally demanding of Dean, equally disappointed by him and equally brutal. I feel like I can't compare their unusual friendship to normal riendships because it's just too different.

imo Cas would be sad and feel terrible but I think he would view it as a duty to his brother in arms.

Re Dean s flashback. Okay Jensen is frakking amazing. He is so damn consistent with Dean. If you look at his face he has an almost identical hopelessly lost and confused look that he had in King of the damned. How is he real?

Edited by catrox14
Mcolleague

Mcolleague

(edited)

Is that actually Dean and Cas sharing a scene?! I love that Dean steals Cas' burger hahaha. It's been SO long since they were even in the same room... they've had maybe 30 seconds of interaction this season, which annoys me a lot since I do think the reason it's been dialed back so much is to counteract all the queerbaiting accusations. 

 

I think the appeal of Dean/Cas relationship is because it's not a typical friendship? And I dunno, is it a stretch for Dean to refuse to forgive Cas for hurting Sam (like REALLY hurt/potentially killed Sam)? If someone hurt a family member of mine, I don't think I would EVER forgive it, and IMO it's because Dean values Cas that he forgives him at all eventually. The only thing I'm not super comfortable about with their dynamic is when there is excessive physical violence like the alley scene, because there is suuuuuch a difference in physical power, and beating someone who can't fight back just because you're angry is kinda creepy. This is a Kripke era thing though so not as much of an issue these days. It's not a typically healthy relationship, but neither is Sam/Dean? It's an interesting dynamic because they are unlikely friends, they used to be on different sides and Cas defected to Dean's cause (humanity/free will), but they are still different species and come from completely different perspectives.

 

Also, I don't think it's odd for Dean to ask Cas to take him out at all? When Dean got turned into a vampire, he was going to ask Samuel to kill him since he thought Sam wouldn't be able to, so this is consistent, and if he can't ask Sam who else can he even ask, since someone has to do it... Cas is an angel and likely more physically capable of doing so than anyone else (i.e. Sam who is a human) if MoC!Dean really goes berserk like in the hallucination/flashback/vision. Also, IIRC Sam has asked Dean to take Sam out if he goes darkside in the past too (I forget which episode, Playthings maybe?). I think this is just a necessity of their circumstances, they are often playing with extremely powerful forces, and if any of them loses control, the others have to put a stop to it no matter what, otherwise innocents die/the world ends etc. It doesn't seem like Sam can do so at this point in time, since from his POV, he has been unsuccessful in saving Dean so many times in the past, and this time that's what he's going to do "or die trying". So that basically leaves Cas. 

Edited by Mcolleague
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rue721

rue721

Oh do t get me wrong. I'm not saying you have to agree with anyone. I was just curious. Sorry if my question came across differently. Thanks for responding! I think Cas has been equally demanding of Dean, equally disappointed by him and equally brutal. I feel like I can't compare their unusual friendship to normal riendships because it's just too different.

imo Cas would be sad and feel terrible but I think he would view it as a duty to his brother in arms.

 

Np, you didn't come off as harsh at all, imo, I just didn't want to be a jerk because I know Cas/Dean's friendship is beloved by a lot of people -- and I think that's completely fine. It's just not a relationship that resonates with me personally. To be fair, I've had trouble accepting Cas into the fold just in general. Not that anything's wrong with him, and Misha Collins seems like a great person (And I met his grandma during that GISHWHES thing. She lives like four blocks away from my old building in Baltimore and right across the street from my old supermarket, so when an acquaintance needed somebody to do the task of bringing her some flowers, I volunteered. So now I feel kind of horrible saying anything against him or his character because uhhh come on. His grandma, dude). But when it comes to Cas, I'm just always like, "who's this angel? WHY is he involved? Wut?" I feel similarly about Crowley.

 

Anyway, I agree that if Cas makes the promise, that he'll do whatever he can to follow through on it, because Castiel is nothing if not dutiful. That's just a really hard position to put a loved one in (having to police you and maybe murder you!) and while I think it makes sense for Dean to tell Cas (and Sam, tbh) that he *does not want* to be a demon ever again, I think it would be better to have other plans in place to take care of the "problem" if he does get to the point (cyanide pill-style or some kind of dead man's switch that Dean would have to have his humanity to operate or something) and for the "save or kill" plan to be a laaaaaaaaast resort. Knowing this show, it would still be the plan that would have to get used, but still. At least *try* to spare Cas that pain, you know? Especially since this is Dean asking, and he's been put in that position before (by John, for Sam) and knows firsthand that it's a *horrible* position to be in.

 

I think the appeal of Dean/Cas relationship is because it's not a typical friendship? And I dunno, is it a stretch for Dean to refuse to forgive Cas for hurting Sam (like REALLY hurt/potentially killed Sam)? If someone hurt a family member of mine, I don't think I would EVER forgive it, and IMO it's because Dean values Cas that he forgives him at all eventually. The only thing I'm not super comfortable about with their dynamic is when there is excessive physical violence like the alley scene, because there is suuuuuch a difference in physical power, and beating someone who can't fight back just because you're angry is kinda creepy. This is a Kripke era thing though so not as much of an issue these days. It's not a typically healthy relationship, but neither is Sam/Dean? It's an interesting dynamic because they are unlikely friends, they used to be on different sides and Cas defected to Dean's cause (humanity/free will), but they are still different species and come from completely different perspectives.

 

This should probably go in the UO thread, but I actually think that Sam/Dean have a good relationship. The "codependent" thing never made sense to me really. Of course if family needs you, they come first. Sucks, but the alternative is not having a family, and that's not an easy or necessarily preferable row to hoe imo. The only thing that bothered me was when for a while there, Dean kept punching Sam in the face. I mean, wtf? Calm it down. But that hasn't come up for a long time, that was also much more of a thing during the Kripke era, also when I guess Cas/Dean fighting was an issue (though tbh I don't remember that very well).

 

Anyway, I don't think that Cas/Dean have an unhealthy friendship, it just doesn't feel like a friendship to me, I just don't get it. People talk about their chemistry and stuff, but I can't see it. YMMV.

 

I don't think it's at all a stretch for Dean to be pissed at Cas for things like breaking Sam's head, etc, I just find the interaction of Castiel then kind of logging a bunch of sacrifices in the bank with Dean so that he finally earns redemption from him to be really strange in the context of them being close friends. With friends and family it's more like, you forgive or don't forgive, whichever, but nobody is *redeeming* themselves like that ime. Because I would think that you aren't friends or family with someone because of anything they've done or not done, per se, more like just because of who they are. I dunno, the thing of earning forgiveness, etc, just makes the relationship seem weirdly mechanistic to me, and not like a friendship in that way.

 

If the appeal is that it *doesn't* feel like a regular friendship, what is it about them that people like?

Aeryn13

Aeryn13

 

If the appeal is that it *doesn't* feel like a regular friendship, what is it about them that people like?

 

They haven`t really had any good interaction (or any interaction period) for some time but the sneak peak brought something back that has always been unique to me about their relationship and that is how Cas responds to Dean`s damage. Not a boohoo speech, not the "tough love" crap that Bobby loved to dish out but couldn`t handle himself for shit.

 

Instead being calm and compassionate. Cas isn`t cloying and overly pimpage-like here but he still validates Dean`s worth in other terms than "you are an alright nanny". I get that for Dean so little - or rather usually not at all - and I think Cas is the only character in the show who does it. Maybe Crowley in his own, twisted way.

 

There was a little scene quite like it when Cas (with amnesia, thinking he was some faith healer) and Dean were en route to help Sam with his Hellucinations.  

 

Of course I utterly hate what they made of the relationship between the brothers so pretty much anything else looks better in comparism now.

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NoWillToResist

NoWillToResist

Wow. That clip has actually made me want to watch an episode this season.

 

Love that Cas doesn't let Dean bullshit him and that when Cas challenges him, Dean relents, opens up and makes himself vulnerable. This is usually not something that Dean allows himself to do with Sam (likely due to the whole 'big bro has to protect little bro Sammy' thing). Cas gives Dean an outlet and a safe place to confess his fears, worries, insecurities etc., in a judgement free zone. Cas doesn't wave off the bad that Dean has done but he doesn't condemn him either.

 

Was the burger in front of Cas actually Dean's? Because I can't imagine why Cas would bother ordering one unless it was just to save face? I find myself very amused that Dean appeared to eat his entire meal and then moved on to Cas'. Heh. That's a level of comfort and familiarity with another human being that one doesn't see very often with Dean. :)  Speaking of familiarity and comfort...why aren't they sitting opposite each other? Isn't that the standard arrangement when two people (esp. two men) get a meal together? At first I figured it was a filming choice but they go back and forth on close ups to their faces anyway, so it wouldn't make any difference filming-wise if they sat opposite each other. Did they just miss being in the same space as each other? ;)

 

And a big old 'aawwwwww' to Dean asking Cas to kill him before he can revert to a demon again. That is very touching to me. Ill-fated (um, have you MET Cas, Dean?) but lovely that he trusts him enough to ask him to do it.

 

So the black and white death images from the promo are just the MoC fucking with Dean, trying to tempt him to kill again?

SueB

SueB

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Love that Cas doesn't let Dean bullshit him and that when Cas challenges him, Dean relents, opens up and makes himself vulnerable. This is

Was the burger in front of Cas actually Dean's? Because I can't imagine why Cas would bother ordering one unless it was just to save face? I find myself very amused that Dean appeared to eat his entire meal and then moved on to Cas'. Heh. That's a level of comfort and familiarity with another human being that one doesn't see very often with Dean. :) Speaking of familiarity and comfort...why aren't they sitting opposite each other? Isn't that the standard arrangement when two people (esp. two men) get a meal together? At first I figured it was a filming choice but they go back and forth on close ups to their faces anyway, so it wouldn't make any difference filming-wise if they sat opposite each other. Did they just miss being in the same space as each other? ;)

.......

So the black and white death images from the promo are just the MoC fucking with Dean, trying to tempt him to kill again?

Food head canon: Cas got in the habit after getting hassled at the Biggersons for only ordering coffee.

It's nice to see Dean eating tho. We hadn't seen a lot of that.

I wondered about the sitting too but it's easier to talk about monsters, demons, and angels in a public place if you don't have to lean over and whisper.

And I don't know if the Mark is screwing with him or Dean's just having nightmares.

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

 

And I don't know if the Mark is screwing with him or Dean's just having nightmares.

 

I'm tempted to say they are flashbacks to when he was demon!Dean or premonitions.

 

I think Cas sitting where he is him still not getting the whole personal space thing.  You know how guys always put a seat between them at the theatre unless they have no choice? Cas would totally be the one to sit in the chair right next to Dean. So to me that is just Cas being Cas

 

ETA: although if he was demon!Dean I don't think he would look so confused about murder.

Edited by catrox14
7kstar

7kstar

Not to say that anybody has to agree with me, I know they're beloved by many people and that's fine. Their friendship doesn't make sense to me personally, though, because they don't really seem like they have anything in common personality-wise or like they're on the same wavelength, and they don't interact like friends imo. There's also this weird power dynamic where usually Cas is infinitely more powerful than Dean because he's an angel. Dean literally can't even look at real!Cas because he'd burn his eyes out -- already that seems weird imo. It also seems like there have been so many fairly long periods of Dean being pissed at Cas for something that Cas has done (usually to Sam), during which Cas seems to spend so many episodes trying to do nice-and-usually-sacrificial things for Dean and then looking at him all sadfais and asking if it's enough and Dean telling him it's not. Who has that sort of dynamic with their bff? I think that Dean is usually justified when he's pissed at Cas, but the whole thing of Cas then sort of groveling and eventually redeeming himself in Dean's eyes is just strange to me in the context of a close/loving friendship. It would also always get under my skin when the other angels would refer to Dean or the Winchesters as basically Cas's pet(s), I guess because tbh I do feel like Cas and his unconditional love and sense of responsibility and lack of interest/hope in reciprocity when it comes to Dean does honestly remind me more of my relationship with my cat (who I'm a hopeless sucker for) than my relationship with my bff (who's like a sister to me). Idk, it just doesn't work like a friendship to my eyes, and I don't really see any (personal) basis for why they'd be friends rather than just people that respect each other or allies. I guess I don't see the chemistry that other people see, either. YMMV.

 

Well you do have Dean in season 8 Yelling Cas's Name when he is killed, so I think it works on several levels.  It isn't a clean cut friendship where they haven't done something to each other.  Both have done some awful things to each other, but Jensen described it this way and I think it is the way it works.  Cas and Dean are like war buddy's.  They've seen each other's worst characteristics.  Yet they still try to fight on the same side for the same things, so when you look at the whole and not the parts, they bonded over fighting for team free will. 

 

Now Cas doesn't understand human emotions and Dean is his guide in this.  Kind of like when Soulless Sam said to Dean, you make hunting better. (Not saying they did a great job with that storyline, just using it as an example.)  On some level they get each other and they don't have to apologize for their actions over and over.

 

To be honest I think some of the parts of them not being bonded as friends has been the results of trying to dispel Diestiel.

 

But I can only give what draws me to liking their dynamic together.  Cas is the only one Dean can tell his real feelings without risking the end of their friendship.  Cas understands Dean well enough to call him on his bull and force him to talk to him and Dean has gotten through to Cas sometimes a bit too late, but he has gotten through.  So the connection is one that was forged by fighting the good fight together and Cas did the one thing no one else could do.  He got him to hope and pray and he does pray to Cas in the worst of times.  Last Season when Cas was human, he also allowed him to leave the hunting world because at the time he thought it would be the best thing for him.  He was wrong, but he did have good intentions.  JMV

 

Just like family, you care about someone even when they drive you batty and you want to be as far away as possible.  But when the going gets tough, you are there for them because that is what real friends do.  On some level, they do that.  They keep each other moving in the right direction and Dean is the only one that really gets why Cas just doesn't understand some things.  So although he is way more powerful than Dean, he has a leadership quality that Cas will follow. 

 

Finally, because, Jensen and Misha have a bloody chemistry that just pulls you in.  Now you don't have to agree with anything I said, but I can only tell you why I love them together as friends.  Have they had a rocky road at times, sure but on the whole they work as friends for me.

 

@Sue B  I hate when they show the best parts in the previews, but I'm hoping there is something that hasn't been shown that we will love as well.  I'm hopeful, but these days I go in prepared to be burned.  So Sad.  But I do love that scene. 

 

Maybe it's the lighting of Jensen's hair, but it looks lighter than the beginning of the season....For some reason I like it with highlights.  lol  I really like his look this season.

NoWillToResist

NoWillToResist

@Sue B  I hate when they show the best parts in the previews, but I'm hoping there is something that hasn't been shown that we will love as well.  I'm hopeful, but these days I go in prepared to be burned.  So Sad.  But I do love that scene. 

 

But this is the episode when Claire comes back, right? I am REALLY looking forward to that. While I'm thrilled to see Dean and Cas share a scene together, I am also looking forward to a story which involves Cas and NOT the boring as fuck Heaven/angels storyline.

DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

(edited)
SueB, on 05 Dec 2014 - 7:25 PM, said:

I wondered about the sitting too but it's easier to talk about monsters, demons, and angels in a public place if you don't have to lean over and whisper.

 

Disclaimer: haven't seen the promo, but thought I'd throw my two cents in anyway...what if it's Sam, Dean and Castiel having a bite and Sam has to excuse himself for whatever reason the writer will come up with this time to make sure the three guys aren't in the same scene together for more than one minute.  Maybe Sam is sitting across from Dean, so Castiel ended up sitting next to him?

 

Just food for thought, and I'm pretty sure there's some sort of theory floating around that having all three of them in a scene for more than one minute will cause some sort of end of the world scenario. Otherwise, I have no idea why it seems to be so egregious as of late. ;)

Edited by DittyDotDot
NoWillToResist

NoWillToResist

I was just thinking about Cas and Claire. I had assumed that if he wanted to get his bit of grace out of her, he would have to extract it from her. But I was wondering...if she gave her consent, couldn't he just quickly "possess" her, "reunite" with his grace and then pop back out with it? That way she doesn't have to experience even the slightest discomfort...

catrox14

catrox14

For some reason I thought Claire!Cas told Jimmy that once  Jimmy accepted him again that Claire was free and clear angelic things other than having to go into hiding with her mother for the rest of their lives because demons would be hunting them. So I took that to mean that Cas' grace was totally out of Claire.  And then when Cas died by Lucifer and then Leviathan and then Metatron took his grace via the spell, there was no more Cas grace and that is why he stole grace in the first place. I don't think Claire can help Cas at this point at all.

 

IMO this season is going to be Cas' long goodbye before he really most sincerely dies trying to save Dean when Dean loses control or becomes demon!Dean again. 

NoWillToResist

NoWillToResist

It's been years since Cass possessed Claire, I'd think whatever grace that was left would've dissipated by now. Gadreel's residual grace was fading from Sam a few days after him being kicked out.

 

I don't remember hearing that Gadreel's grace was fading. Hm. Yeah, guess that means Cas is back to square one. I'd like some clarification on the whole grace thing though. It's been likened to batteries, which have a shelf life. But the more you use batteries or use them for big draining devices, the quicker they die. Wouldn't Cas, who just used grace to subdue MoC!Demon!Dean, be super low by now? I'd like a chart breaking things down like: "healing cuts and abrasions: 2 units of grace. Expelling demons: 20 units of grace. Resurrection of dead humans: 1,000 units of grace."  ;)

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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

(edited)

I had to go look it up to see if I was remembering it correctly--yes and no--Gadreels grace was fading in Sam, but it was due to Castiel's healing Sam not natural fading.

 

From the First Born transcript:

 

Quote

CASTIEL: I've found, well, something. It's a detail about when angels leave their vessels...I think. It's, uh, Enochian,

which can be a bit flowery. "And the departed shall remain, and the remains shall be the departed".

SAM: Okay, so, when an angel leaves a vessel, they leave behind a piece of themselves. Like, uh...like an angelic fingerprint.

CASTIEL: Whatever you want to call it, this piece of the departed contains Grace.

SAM: Wait, you're saying there's angelic Grace inside of me?

CASTIEL: Yes. But it's fading each time I heal you.

 

Although, I'm not sure how much  of it is left behind in the first place. They were just trying to extract it to use it to track Gadreel, but I wonder if there would be enough to even be helpful to Castiel anyway. Hmmm...

 

Yep, we definitely need some charts and graphs for this grace thing.

Edited by DittyDotDot
SueB

SueB

  • Author

I think that Sam actually hinted when he said 'demon residue'. But there isn't a lot of grace residue to begin with. However Metatron said there was only a little of Cas' grace 'but enough'. I think stolen grace wears out. Not regular grace of an angel in their correct vessel. This would all support Claire as a grace donator. But I don't think the story is going to go there and I have. No rationale for 'why'. Perhaps because this is a mid season finale and I think everything will go to shit.

DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

I agree, SueB, I don't think the story's going there either.

 

I think is grace kinda like rechargeable batteries, but can only be recharged when in it's original host. I get the stolen grace is fading because it can't be recharged, but I wonder why its also killing Cas? He lived for months without any grace at all, so I'd think he'd just become human again. Or is it like how when regular batteries are put on a charger they can either explode and/or ooze and ruin the charger itself? I think I just answered my own question.

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NoWillToResist

NoWillToResist

Oh, to add to your list, I'd like to know how much grace it takes to fill up an angel too.

 

*must stay out of gutter*

 

I'd also like to know how quickly an angel can recharge their own batteries.

 

I had to go look it up to see if I was remembering it correctly--yes and no--Gadreels grace was fading in Sam, but it was due to Castiel's healing Sam not natural fading.

 

I think once Cas and any shred of his own grace connect, his grace can start to regenerate. Hell, Cas was almost human back in...um...well, many seasons ago, but he was just mostly drained after a massive use (IIRC) and needed time to get his levels back.

 

Even if the residual grace did fade, TPTB could still probably fanwank that Claire was an exception to this general rule since she's part of the bloodline of Cas's vessel, rather than just a human who was strong enough to accept an angel inside them.

 

So wait, then if there is grace left in angel vessels does that mean that their is demon juice left in demon's vessels?

 

TPTB could fanwank this as simply being a by-product of the consent that is required for angels to take a vessel. Kind of like an echo or footprint of their bond.

 

I'm not sure that the re-introduction of Claire is about Cas' grace but I will be disappointed if it doesn't come up. I mean, TPTB have made a big deal about how Cas will die and he was given an offer of his grace back by Metatron and blah blah blah. I wouldn't put it past Cas to say 'no, I've ruined her life enough. I'm not going to ask her go through a painful process to get my bit of grace out of her, or re-possess her to get it back', but I will be annoyed if NO ONE else mentions this. Sam is always credited as the smart one and he literally experienced having an angel's grace extracted from him after possession, so if he doesn't even bring this up as a potential solution to Cas' problem, I think it'll be a major oversight...

NoWillToResist

NoWillToResist

I get the stolen grace is fading because it can't be recharged, but I wonder why its also killing Cas? He lived for months without any grace at all, so I'd think he'd just become human again.

 

I think it's because Metatron did something when he took Cas' grace; it wasn't just a matter of it wearing out.

 

It's probably also set up that way to avoid angels killing their brothers for a boost.

 

Can I just say that I don't even understand grace/angels. I always thought the blue light was the essence/grace of the angel and "who" they were. So, when Cas had all his grace taken, I didn't understand how Cas was still CAS, just with no powers. It's not like Jimmy's body and personality is Cas, and the blue light was just the mojo, so what is the 'source' of Cas as far as who he is? When an angel leaves their vessel, we only see the blue light of their grace leave, not the blue light of their grace (mojo) PLUS something which is the angel's personality...

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SueB

SueB

  • Author

My theory: Jimmy is gone so Cas's vessel, when resurrected, is unique. The vessel is the physical manifestation of Cas. Remember in 6.03 he said he had spent the last several months as a multidimensional being of celestial intent. So...where was his physical vessel during that time? Heavenly waiting room like a mannequin? It forms and unforms as Cas needed? I don't know and I think the writers are just ignoring that practical issue. But Jimmy was not running around during that time so...I'm thinking his vessel is unique.

NoWillToResist

NoWillToResist

(edited)

Since we know that an angel and a demon can both inhabit a human, I'd love to see them try to get rid of the MoC (or at least minimize its effects on Dean) by having Cas temporarily use Dean as a vessel and try to blast it out with his grace (like the opening SPN title implies). Kind of like how an angel could only heal Sam from the Hell trials from the inside. Maybe Cas can also fix Dean's liver while he's in there. ;)

 

Sneak peek and BTS photos from "The Things We Left Behind'

 

Hee! The pic of Sam outside that store, with Cas lounging against the brick wall in the background makes Cas look like some kind of flasher-in-waiting. :D

Claire fixing Cas' tie is adorable. So very Dean.

Edited by NoWillToResist
catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

Ha. I suspect TPTB will never have Cas possess Dean because the Cas inside of Dean implications will be too much for those for and against Destiel. Plus I'm going with the MoC prevents that from happening again anyway for unstoppable force meets immovable object reasons. I think the only reason Cas could subdue Dean is that he was already weakened.

I personally don't want the MoC or demon!Dean story to be over until we see Dean actually in action with enhanced powers.As much as I was upset that Dean lost his humanity at all, I hate to think all it was for was Dean being an uber-dick.

I think it would be interesting if Deans demonity + MoC would be the only way to kill Crowley and close the gates of hell forever. What if Crowley decides that he wants to take over the earth too since he finds hell so boring now and he has to be stopped and demon!Dean with MoC is the only way to do that?

Would they go against Deans wishes to never be that thing again and compel him to become a demon again for the greater good?

Would Dean voluntarily opt in to be that thing again to kill Crowley if he could never be un-demoned again?

If he chose to do it and they could un-demoned it but demon side says Nope and is more powerful now?

Would Cas still be able to smite Dean if he has full demon powers?

Would Sam allow Dean to go demon again either way?

There is so much still left to mine from the MoC and demon!Dean.

Edited by catrox14
NoWillToResist

NoWillToResist

(edited)

Ha. I suspect TPTB will never have Cas possess Dean because the Cas inside of Dean implications will be too much for those for and against Destiel.

 

Heh. I don't know. Seems an okay compromise...."guys, we're not going to let them fuck, but we will have Cas inside Dean before the season is out ok? Get off our backs!" ;)

 

I can only see Cas killing Dean as an absolute last resort, and only if that is immediately followed by Cas killing himself. Because I cannot imagine Cas being able to live with himself after something like that. I'm actually torn between appreciating that Dean asked Cas to take him out and angry that he asked. On the one hand, it shows such trust from Dean, but on the other hand...ugh...what a thing to ask Cas to do. I literally cannot think of anything that Cas would like to do LESS.

Edited by NoWillToResist
rue721

rue721

I personally don't want the MoC or demon!Dean story to be over until we see Dean actually in action with enhanced powers.As much as I was upset that Dean lost his humanity at all, I hate to think all it was for was Dean being an uber-dick.

I think it would be interesting if Deans demonity + MoC would be the only way to kill Crowley and close the gates of hell forever. What if Crowley decides that he wants to take over the earth too since he finds hell so boring now and he has to be stopped and demon!Dean with MoC is the only way to do that?

 

Totally agree, I want to see demon!Dean doing some stuff he can only do as a demon! I really want him to go into Hell and search people out SO BADLY. He must know so so so many people down there. He has had zero scores he wanted to settle with any of them?! Like I said a zillion years ago, I really wanted him to go down there as a demon and parade himself in front of John especially. But OK that might be hard in terms of getting the actor. Still, that seems like basically the meanest thing he could do, so I want him to do it *shrug*

 

As far as Crowley goes, I think he's more likely to get kicked off the throne in Hell, and I wonder who will come to fill that power vacuum. Hopefully, it's not Dean, because that's just too much and too silly. I don't think they'd do that anyway. But I think it's actually pretty plausible that Crowley will be cured by the end of the season and out of Hell in any case.

 

Would they go against Deans wishes to never be that thing again and compel him to become a demon again for the greater good?

 

Could they do this?! Maybe if they stab him to death or something, he could come back as a demon? I can't think who would do this, though. Sam or Cas would never, imo. I also don't see how it could be helpful to anyone as things stand now. It's not as though he's very controllable as a demon. I *do* think that Dean will be a demon again by the end of the season, though. Just a feeling. That SL ended too abruptly and they've been hinting too much about it happening. This request to die rather than become a demon again just feels so much like a Chekov's gun.

 

Would Dean voluntarily opt in to be that thing again to kill Crowley if he could never be un-demoned again?

 

Maybe if he thought they could/would kill him once he'd done his job as a demon? I think he could also be tricked into doing it. The thing with Dean is that if there's a solution on the table that involves him sacrificing himself, he'll take it. So I feel like this wouldn't actually be difficult to get him to do, frankly.

 

If he becomes a demon again, and they have to take him out, imo they're going to have to end up exercising him (as a compromise between killing him -- though I don't even know if the demon blade would work on him since he heals, unlike regular demons? -- and curing him). That seems like it would have to be done right before a hiatus, though, and I don't think they're going to squeeze THAT much in before the winter break. OTOH, he's healed a broken leg between regular episodes, so I guess they could exercise him and he could be back between two regular episodes later in the season, too, lol.

catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

They can't exorcise the demon because Dean IS the demon which is why he wants Cas to smite him if the THING shows up again.  I felt like from that clip that Dean must have done something far worse than what we saw for him to not want to ever be that THING again. 

 

I think whatever Dean did in Hell as a human is probably worse than anything we know about as demon!Dean which I'm super depressed about and wish I hadn't even thought about just now.  :(:(:(

 

I want to find out that Alastair survived Sam's Hand of Ipecac. Heck I wouldn't mind seeing Alastair rise back up as an opponent to Crowley. That would actually give Dean a reason to ally with Crowley at first. I want to  see demon!Dean torture and abuse Alastair for a very long time. I want him to give Alastair the slow painful death he deserves at it has to  come from demon!Dean not Sam again. I was always kind of annoyed that it was Sam that killed Alastair and not Dean.

Edited by catrox14
NoWillToResist

NoWillToResist

They can't exorcise the demon because Dean IS the demon which is why he wants Cas to smite him if the THING shows up again.

 

But can Demon!Dean with the MoC on his arm even BE killed? I got the sense that Cain couldn't be killed and that's why he was wanting to get rid of it (didn't he tell Dean that he wanted MoC'd Dean to come back and kill him?)

 

I'm very interested to see what happens when Cain re-enters the narrative...

catrox14

catrox14

But can Demon!Dean with the MoC on his arm even BE killed? I got the sense that Cain couldn't be killed and that's why he was wanting to get rid of it (didn't he tell Dean that he wanted MoC'd Dean to come back and kill him?)

 

I'm very interested to see what happens when Cain re-enters the narrative...

 

Me too.

 

I think Dean thinks Cas has the juice to send him to the sun if need be but having said that.....what if....

 

.what if this has been demon!Dean all again trying to find a way to come back out but he can't until regular!Dean dies again. I say this because there have been moments in Jensen's work that I swear it seems like some  demon!Dean and not regular!Dean. There is a flick over his face or mannerism or reaction that is I stop and study his face...and think...is that demon!Dean peeking out?

 

Maybe demon!Dean knows that the only way he comes back is for Cas  to kill him.  That may be why Dean said don't let Sam stop you because Sam has saved Dean's life like what 3 times now.  

 

Heh...maybe it's demon!Dean  calling regular!Dean that THING...although that doesn't explain his joy at getting rid of the black eyes...but maybe that's just and act by demon!Dean.

DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

(edited)

I'm very interested to see what happens when Cain re-enters the narrative...

 

You know what's funny, back in S4, I was kinda interested in Clair and especially Jimmy since they were vessels. At this point though, I really don't care anymore. I'm most interested in just having Cass and the boys work a case TOGETHER for the first time in what feels like forever. I don't care what the case is, I just want Cass out of storyline-Siberia so bad. They could go looking for an apple for all I care.

 

I also wouldn't mind if someone stabbed Crowley in his face, either. But I'm not holding my breath that's gonna happen. Realistic expectations, right?

Edited by DittyDotDot
Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

what if this has been demon!Dean all again trying to find a way to come back out but he can't until regular!Dean dies again. I say this because there have been moments in Jensen's work that I swear it seems like some  demon!Dean and not regular!Dean. There is a flick over his face or mannerism or reaction that is I stop and study his face...and think...is that demon!Dean peeking out?

 

So, somehow Demon Dean would be immune (can't think of a better word) to holy water?  He's been splashed with it at least twice since he was healed and it didn't affect him.

 

That would piss me off.  Talk about a retcon.

rue721

rue721

But can Demon!Dean with the MoC on his arm even BE killed? I got the sense that Cain couldn't be killed and that's why he was wanting to get rid of it (didn't he tell Dean that he wanted MoC'd Dean to come back and kill him?)

 

Yeah, if I remember correctly (and that's a big "if"!), Dean stabbed Cain in the chest with the demon knife, but Cain just stood there like it was nothing. The MoC must make the bearer immortal, I think that's part of the blessing/curse? To outlive everyone, and to be alone/exiled forever? Someone mentioned a while back that Cain said he would come back to Dean when he wanted to be killed -- that's why they're not searching him out now, I think, because Cain's only going to come back to them when he's ready.

 

I just keep thinking, Lucifer made it, he can un-make it. Maybe they can offer to let him out of the Cage and put him on the throne of Hell in return for getting rid of the Mark? I doubt Crowley's long for that seat in any case. No idea if that would even be tempting to Lucifer, though. Well, if everything were to turn out, maybe they could let Adam out of the Cage finally, while they're at it. That poor thing.

 

On the one hand, I really want to see demon!Dean traveling around Hell, because hey, that's novel! On the other hand, this show has been terrible at imagining Hell, so maybe not.

 

I think whatever Dean did in Hell as a human is probably worse than anything we know about as demon!Dean which I'm super depressed about and wish I hadn't even thought about just now.  :(:(:(

 

What's depressing about it? (I mean, I can imagine many things that are depressing about it, but what do you find depressing about it in particular?). Imagining him doing terrible things?

 

They can't exorcise the demon because Dean IS the demon which is why he wants Cas to smite him if the THING shows up again.

 

Couldn't they still exercise him, it would just be demon!Dean's soul sent back to Hell, and Dean's body would be soulless? I don't think they'd want him walking around soulless because they beat that story into the ground with Sam, but I guess that would be one way to stop him from wreaking havoc without killing him? Or maybe they actually can't exercise him, they might have said that before. Remember that episode when nuns or somebody had been stealing souls and had them lined up in the church basement in little jars? Could they exercise Dean but catch his demon!soul in a jar like that? Again, probably won't do that because it would leave Dean soullness...hmmm.

 

Heh...maybe it's demon!Dean  calling regular!Dean that THING...although that doesn't explain his joy at getting rid of the black eyes...but maybe that's just and act by demon!Dean.

 

That's both hilarious and horrible. At first I was very suspicious that Dean hadn't been cured, but at this point, I've been lulled into a sense of security. Which probably means he's not cured :P.

 

I doubt that demon!Dean would need Cas to kill him, though. He would maybe do it just to screw with Cas, but if all he needed was to be killed, he could do that himself. And if he was never cured in the first place, it wouldn't matter if he were killed or not, he'd be a demon in any case.

 

The thing of "curing" a demon still seems bizarre to me. How do you un-warp a soul? I agree with your train of thought that the human/demon thing is probably not as cut-and-dried as it has seemed lately. Crowley struggled with being half-cured for a long time last season. A demon soul is still just a warped *human* soul, anyway. It's the worst version of a human maybe, but it's still fundamentally human, isn't it? I thought that was the whole point of why Lucifer wanted to create demons (starting with Lilith) -- to show God the worst side of humanity possible, so that He wouldn't prefer humans to angels anymore? I feel like it must be on somewhat of a continuum, rather than humans and demons being *entirely* different species the way that angels and humans are?

 

Also, someone wrote this a few days or so ago as a joke, and I'm sure it will remain just a joke for the same reason that Cas won't be going inside Dean to cleanse him, but I still *wish* it could happen because imo it would be OTT-but-fun-as-hell:  if Sam drank demon!Dean's blood to get strong enough to fight him.

DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

Yeah, if I remember correctly (and that's a big "if"!), Dean stabbed Cain in the chest with the demon knife, but Cain just stood there like it was nothing. The MoC must make the bearer immortal, I think that's part of the blessing/curse? To outlive everyone, and to be alone/exiled forever? Someone mentioned a while back that Cain said he would come back to Dean when he wanted to be killed -- that's why they're not searching him out now, I think, because Cain's only going to come back to them when he's ready.

 

To be fair, the-knife-that-can-kill-anything-except-when-it-can't (I know they've named it "demon killing knife of the Curds" now, but it just doesn't have the same ring to it and tbh, it's not all that accurate either) doesn't work on all demons. Alistair just pulled it out of him like it was a sliver and Abaddon didn't even "flicker" if I recall properly. I'm thinking there's a way to kill Cain, we just don't know what it is yet and if I were a betting person, I'd put my money on that being the main focus of the first few episodes back after the break.

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catrox14

catrox14

So, somehow Demon Dean would be immune (can't think of a better word) to holy water?  He's been splashed with it at least twice since he was healed and it didn't affect him.

 

That would piss me off.  Talk about a retcon.

 

It might not be a retcon entirely. Demon Dean was able to escape the Devil's trap because enough of his demon juice had been removed but not enough to be demon-free.  Maybe there is more humanity in Dean than demonity right now which is why he can withstand the holy water.

SueB

SueB

  • Author

Random comments on the posts above:

- John is no longer in Hell, he escaped and it appeared he went to Heaven

- Cain survived the demon knife because he's not only a demon but a Knight of Hell, he had more juice than the average demon. In pecking order, it would seem that the Knights of Hell were stronger than Alastair because it definitely affected Alastair when Cas was twisting the blade.

- Supernatural treats the soul as both concrete and metaphysical .at the same time -- which is kind of an oxymoron but ....whatever.  Since they physically show the soul as a bright light that can be trapped in a briefcase or jar, it's kinda weird.  They also link the soul's state to physical state of the body (sleepless Soulless!Sam).  Artistic license (or necessity) I guess. Regarding Dean's soul, it's been corrupted by the Mark of Cain post death into a demonic state.  In that regard, Crowley used the word "twisted". But I think in this case "twisted" was more a description akin to "sick" or "violated" than physically mangled.  The 'Ritual of Purified Blood" as a choice for removal of corruption of a soul implies the physical blood has an impact on the metaphysical soul.  Still....rolling with it...Dean said it felt like his blood was boiling.  So ... really reaching now...perhaps the holy (purified) blood infused into his body made the body boil off the taint (corruption) on his soul.  The soul could not stay corrupt inside a purified body. So, the Dean's demonic nature and powers were gone.  Since Dean isn't constantly shooting up purified blood...seems to me that eventually the body would be open to corruption again. So, if he dies, back to demon because the Mark makes it so.  I'm theorizing here that the Mark can't take over the soul and corrupt it while the human conscience still has a vote.  Once deal, MoC takes control, resurrects body & mind.  Yes... all tissue paper thin logic that could be wiped away with a single line of dialog. But that's my working theory. In short: I think Dean's soul is under attack but remains uncorrupted until he dies (again). Then MoC takes over.  

- Cain said Dean could kill him with the First Blade. I presume that if Cain transferred the Mark, then he can be killed with the Blade like any other Knight of Hell.

AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

(edited)
I want to find out that Alastair survived Sam's Hand of Ipecac. Heck I wouldn't mind seeing Alastair rise back up as an opponent to Crowley. That would actually give Dean a reason to ally with Crowley at first. I want to  see demon!Dean torture and abuse Alastair for a very long time. I want him to give Alastair the slow painful death he deserves at it has to  come from demon!Dean not Sam again. I was always kind of annoyed that it was Sam that killed Alastair and not Dean.

 

For some reason the show likes to do that. At least Dean got to torture Alastair for a moment anyway, even if he didn't get to kill him. I felt similarly about Azazel. He was associated with Dean also - since Azazel killed their mom - but Sam got pretty much no closure there. Considering all that Azazel did to Sam personally with the demon blood, having Jess killed, getting Sam killed, and it turned out having demons manipulate him, I was kind of bummed that Dean (with the help of John) was the only one who got to be involved with killing him. Dean was also the one to go back in time and confront him there as well.

 

So yeah the show likes to do the bait in switch with who gets to kill the bad guy sometimes. They likely wouldn't even think of giving demon Dean a chance with Alastair.

Edited by AwesomO4000
SueB

SueB

  • Author

It's their idea of balance.  It takes both of them to take out major bad guys.  They never would have gotten the Alpha Vamp blood if Sam didn't pitch "let's negotiate".  Dean, bless him, would have screwed the pooch on that one due to anger.

 

But who will kill Crowley? Sam, Dean, or Cas? Or will he be left in charge of Hell because he's better than the other whack jobs?

 

Back to spoilers: I seriously want an answer on this -- what are they going to do about Timothy Omundson's BEAUTIFUL hair?  Last year he had the majestic beard.  Now with Galavant

pwl4aGc.jpg

 

Well. I just don't know how to explain the hair.  He goes 6000+ years with short hair and NOW he grows it out?  And really, do we want that hair cut?  It's the definition of Magnificent.  It's a problem.

ohjoy
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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