Spoilers With Speculation

[ILoveReading]

This promo doesn't have such a close up of scene of Dean firing the gun.  Does it look like blood on his hand?

Since the show loves its parallels, I wouldn't be surprised if Dean was left the last man standing like Sam was at the end of s7.

Edited May 9, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Jonesy]

14 hours ago, Mick Lady said:

If they kill off Crowley or Cas, I'm not watching next season!

Okay, you know me, I didn't mean that, but I feel better throwing a temper tantrum! *stomps foot*

Wayward Son, admit it, you live to give me panic attacks!

Welcome Jakes! You just joined the best site on the internet!

Thanks Mick Lady!  I really don't think you need to worry about Cas as I mentioned in earlier post.  Also add that The J's and Misha seem happy and strife free...no inkling of Misha being pushed out.  And no way IMO that Misha quits...it's a great steady gig and Misha loves the cast and crew.   So Cas being off the show I see as a zero possibility.  Now Evil Cas or spawn influenced Cas--see that as very unlikely...even the finale description says the boys and Cas are allied again.  I see Cas allied with the boys next year and being point man with the Lucifer challenge.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

This promo doesn't have such a close up of scene of Dean firing the gun.  Does it look like blood on his hand?

Since the show loves its parallels, I wouldn't be surprised if Dean was left the last man standing like Sam was at the end of s7.

Ha, I said the exact same thing this morning. ETA: I have a gut feeling that Crowley is toast.

So now you wanna punch something in the face, Sammy? All I know is, if the words "I should have listened to you, Dean" don't come out of Sam's mouth (and preferably Mary's too) before this season is over, I'm gonna be pissed.

Edited May 9, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Idahoforspn]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Ha, I said the exact same thing this morning. ETA: I have a gut feeling that Crowley is toast.

So now you wanna punch something in the face, Sammy? All I know is, if the words "I should have listened to you, Dean" don't come out of Sam's mouth (and preferably Mary's too) before this season is over, I'm gonna be pissed.

Your not the only one.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, Idahoforspn said:

Your not the only one.

I know what Dabb said about no vindication for Dean (Chuck forbid), but regardless of his response to it, he deserves to have those words spoken out loud.

[Idahoforspn]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I know what Dabb said about no vindication for Dean (Chuck forbid), but regardless of his response to it, he deserves to have those words spoken out loud.

I agree. Don't have my hopes up though.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I, for one, am kind of glad to hear Sam get angry enough to say he wants to punch something.  Imo, Sam rarely gets that angry - and I can't remember ever hearing him say he wanted to hit something (usually that's Dean.)  Sam has been too Zen for a while now, playing mediator.  There's also no reason, imho, for Sam to say that he should have listened to Dean, since Dean agreed to join up with the BMoL of his own free will also - and didn't catch on to what they were doing behind their backs any earlier than Sam.

[companionenvy]

I really hope Eileen doesn't die. Not only do I like the character, but I think there was enough of a clear flirtation between her and Sam that she'd count as another in his long, sad line of dead love interests.

The "I want to punch something" actually gives me some hope that it isn't Eileen, as that wording just doesn't strike me as appropriate in her case, given Sam's apparent regard for her. I would find it slightly less jarring if he were referring to Garth, but I'm thinking/hoping he's referring to some hunter they've just met casually a couple of times, a la the hunters they met in the Asa Fox episode. Part of my rationale here is that it seems like Sam and Dean are at first going to see the deaths of other hunters as a mystery to be solved, rather than immediately tying it to the BMOL. But since Garth is a werewolf and Eileen killed a MoL, if either of them die, the BMoL should be Sam and Dean's first thought.

On another topic, I agree with RulerofSurvey that there really isn't much call for an I told you so at this point. Sam and Dean were on more or less the same page again within an episode of Sam joining the MoL -- by which he apparently meant nothing more than agreeing to take cases from them. Sam came clean fairly quickly and acknowledged that he shouldn't have gone behind Dean's back; Dean moved on and agreed that working with the MoL made a certain amount of sense, even if he continued not to like it. Both were horrified by the MoL code. There's no reason for Sam to grovel.

[Idahoforspn]

7 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I really hope Eileen doesn't die. Not only do I like the character, but I think there was enough of a clear flirtation between her and Sam that she'd count as another in his long, sad line of dead love interests.

The "I want to punch something" actually gives me some hope that it isn't Eileen, as that wording just doesn't strike me as appropriate in her case, given Sam's apparent regard for her. I would find it slightly less jarring if he were referring to Garth, but I'm thinking/hoping he's referring to some hunter they've just met casually a couple of times, a la the hunters they met in the Asa Fox episode. Part of my rationale here is that it seems like Sam and Dean are at first going to see the deaths of other hunters as a mystery to be solved, rather than immediately tying it to the BMOL. But since Garth is a werewolf and Eileen killed a MoL, if either of them die, the BMoL should be Sam and Dean's first thought.

On another topic, I agree with RulerofSurvey that there really isn't much call for an I told you so at this point. Sam and Dean were on more or less the same page again within an episode of Sam joining the MoL -- by which he apparently meant nothing more than agreeing to take cases from them. Sam came clean fairly quickly and acknowledged that he shouldn't have gone behind Dean's back; Dean moved on and agreed that working with the MoL made a certain amount of sense, even if he continued not to like it. Both were horrified by the MoL code. There's no reason for Sam to grovel.

I didn't take it that anyone wanted Sam to grovel but I can't speak for them.

[Jonesy]

About Dean saying I told you so to Sam--I agree Dean was more on the ball than Sam and especially Mary regarding the BMOL.  That said I don't need an I told you so.  Dean, Sam and Cas are all under Dabb are more understanding of faults now...though not always.  But yes Dean was right in his instincts and he gave it a chance while being leery and supported Mary and Sam.  The show has portrayed Dean as more on target--more important than an I told you so.  If we get one, I'm fine with that but I don't find it necessary.

[Idahoforspn]

12 minutes ago, Jakes said:

About Dean saying I told you so to Sam--I agree Dean was more on the ball than Sam and especially Mary regarding the BMOL.  That said I don't need an I told you so.  Dean, Sam and Cas are all under Dabb are more understanding of faults now...though not always.  But yes Dean was right in his instincts and he gave it a chance while being leery and supported Mary and Sam.  The show has portrayed Dean as more on target--more important than an I told you so.  If we get one, I'm fine with that but I don't find it necessary.

This is probably under the wrong comment but just wanted to say: The comment wasn't wanting Dean to say I told you so. I don't want that either.  It was a statement saying some of us would like Sam and Mary to acknowledge that Dean' has pretty good instincts. That doesn't require Sam or Mary groveling in any way.

Edited May 9, 2017 by Idahoforspn

[Aeryn13]

At this point I`ll just count my blessings if they don`t retcon shit and somehow Sam doesn`t get an "I was right, what were you thinking" speech to Dean. 

But I absolutely want Mary to grovel. She made her own bed with the BMOL and was haughty and manipulative. I hate Lady Deadeyes as much as the next person but I can`t muster up much sympathy for Mary for the trashing she is apparently about to get. 

I think it`s hilarious that Ketch and goons apparently storm the bunker for a good old-fashioned shoot-out. No funky gadgets? No gas attack? Heck, they could have shot them in their sleep. Poisoned their food/clothing the last time they were there. What the hell do they teach at Horror Hogwarts? 

[Idahoforspn]

3 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

At this point I`ll just count my blessings if they don`t retcon shit and somehow Sam doesn`t get an "I was right, what were you thinking" speech to Dean. 

But I absolutely want Mary to grovel. She made her own bed with the BMOL and was haughty and manipulative. I hate Lady Deadeyes as much as the next person but I can`t muster up much sympathy for Mary for the trashing she is apparently about to get. 

I think it`s hilarious that Ketch and goons apparently storm the bunker for a good old-fashioned shoot-out. No funky gadgets? No gas attack? Heck, they could have shot them in their sleep. Poisoned their food/clothing the last time they were there. What the hell do they teach at Horror Hogwarts? 

That's funny. Good one. LOL

[catrox14]

I'm going out on a limb here and guess that Sam is talking about Magda. I'll bet they find out she's been murdered, but he doesn't know why so he says "I wanna punch something in the face"  in a general way. If he was talking about Eileen,  Garth, Claire, he better damn will say, "I wanna kill someone" because a punch in the face is not sufficient IMO. 

Edited May 9, 2017 by catrox14

[Jonesy]

1 minute ago, Idahoforspn said:

The comment wasn't wanting Dean to say I told you so. I don't want that either.  It was a statement saying some of us would like Sam and Mary to acknowledge that Dean' has pretty good instincts. That doesn't require Sam or Mary groveling in any way.

Now I wouldn't mind if they do that to just acknowledge Dean.  Though I still don't need it but it could be nice if they do it the right way.  I'm fine either way on this point--more importantly is the show clearly portrays Dean as having the best instincts on the BMOL.  And whether Sam or Mary explicitly says so in dialogue--the results will be clear to all the characters that Dean's suspicion was wise.  So I'd be fine with the dialogue but I don't need it.  Dean will get his props either way by how the story turns.

[Idahoforspn]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm going out on a limb here and guess that Sam is talking about Magda. I'll bet they find out she's been murdered, but he doesn't know why so he says "I wanna punch someone in the face"  in a general way. If he was talking about Mary, Garth, Claire, Cas or Dean, he better damn will say, "I wanna kill someone" because a punch in the face is not sufficient IMO. 

I think that sounds really plausible.

[catrox14]

20 minutes ago, Jakes said:

Now I wouldn't mind if they do that to just acknowledge Dean.  Though I still don't need it but it could be nice if they do it the right way.  I'm fine either way on this point--more importantly is the show clearly portrays Dean as having the best instincts on the BMOL.  And whether Sam or Mary explicitly says so in dialogue--the results will be clear to all the characters that Dean's suspicion was wise.  So I'd be fine with the dialogue but I don't need it.  Dean will get his props either way by how the story turns.

For me, it's not a matter of wanting to hear it for my own sake, even though YES I DO, but I think DEAN the character deserves to hear validating words from the people who supposedly admire and respect him yet seem to disregard his advice and tend to invalidate his emotions to his face. I was thinking back to the Asa Fox episode when he was so proud of killing Hitler and he IMO, like a little kid, he sought Jody's validation that he did a good job. Jody also validated his emotions about Mary's return in her own smart way.  That came on the heels of Mary rejecting him and Sam and Sam telling him he had to just let her alone which he did do in his own way only to find out that she had time to go to ad dead hunter's funeral in Canada but not spend time with her adult children.  AND NO, this is not me saying Dean is a poor woobie who needs his mommy. 

I'm saying that all human beings need to be validated on some level. Dean's emotions have been invalidated  most of the season. And whilst Jody certainly helps, I think Sam and Mary owe Dean validation at least about the BMOL if nothing else.

Edited May 9, 2017 by catrox14
clarified thoughts

[Idahoforspn]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

 Dean's emotions have been invalidated  most of the season. 

This!

[Diane]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

For me, it's not a matter of wanting to hear it for my own sake, even though YES I DO, but I think DEAN the character deserves to hear validating words from the people who supposedly admire and respect him yet seem to disregard his advice and tend to invalidate his emotions to his face. I was thinking back to the Hitler episode when he was so proud of killing Hitler and he IMO, like a little kid, he sought Jody's validation that he did a good job. That came on the heels of Mary rejecting him and Sam and Sam telling him he had to just let her alone which he did do in his own way only to find out that she had time to go to ad dead hunter's funeral in Canada but not spend time with her adult children.  AND NO, this is not me saying Dean is a poor woobie who needs his mommy. 

I'm saying that all human beings need to be validated on some level. Dean's emotions have been invalidated  most of the season. 

I am sorry I just have to disagree, I don't think Dean is that needy.  He is a grown man and as him and Sam both said they save the world.

[Demented Daisy]

Sam and Ketch on Thursday night's episode.  ;-)

[Idahoforspn]

2 minutes ago, Diane said:

I am sorry I just have to disagree, I don't think Dean is that needy.  He is a grown man and as him and Sam both said they save the world.

Probably should move to Bitch/Jerk thread.

[Diane]

13 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

Probably should move to Bitch/Jerk thread.

I don't need to, I don't think this is a brother vs. brother argument for me.  I think they both know how important they are. I am hoping we don't get any big apologies or I told you so, that is not what I want to hear or see.  I am loving the fact that Sam & Dean are working together and are acting their ages this season.  No over the top mood swings and jealousies.  YMMV.

Edited May 9, 2017 by Diane

[Idahoforspn]

2 minutes ago, Diane said:

I don't need to, I don't think this is a brother vs. brother argument for me.  I think they both know how important they are.  YMMV.

OK I don't really understand the rules here yet.

Edited May 9, 2017 by Idahoforspn

[Diane]

11 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

OK I don't really understand the rules here yet.

That's ok, I didn't mean anything by it.  Just that I think of that thread as being brother vs. brother and that wasn't where I was going, that's all.

[Idahoforspn]

2 minutes ago, Diane said:

That's ok, I didn't mean anything by it.  Just that I think of that thread as being brother vs. brother and that wasn't where I was going, that's all.

No problem. I didn't take it as anything negative. 

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Diane said:

I am sorry I just have to disagree, I don't think Dean is that needy.  He is a grown man and as him and Sam both said they save the world.

 It's not pathetic or sad or not adult. It's human. Dean is not that needy.  But Dean does need it.  JMHO. 

[Idahoforspn]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 It's not pathetic or sad or not adult. It's human. Dean is not that needy.  But Dean does need it.  JMHO. 

I'm with you. Actually, I need it too. The treatment of Dean has broken my heart this year.

Edited May 9, 2017 by Idahoforspn

[gonzosgirrl]

22 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

For me, it's not a matter of wanting to hear it for my own sake, even though YES I DO, but I think DEAN the character deserves to hear validating words from the people who supposedly admire and respect him yet seem to disregard his advice and tend to invalidate his emotions to his face. I was thinking back to the Asa Fox episode when he was so proud of killing Hitler and he IMO, like a little kid, he sought Jody's validation that he did a good job. Jody also validated his emotions about Mary's return in her own smart way.  That came on the heels of Mary rejecting him and Sam and Sam telling him he had to just let her alone which he did do in his own way only to find out that she had time to go to ad dead hunter's funeral in Canada but not spend time with her adult children.  AND NO, this is not me saying Dean is a poor woobie who needs his mommy. 

I'm saying that all human beings need to be validated on some level. Dean's emotions have been invalidated  most of the season. And whilst Jody certainly helps, I think Sam and Mary owe Dean validation at least about the BMOL if nothing else.

Yes, yes, and yes. As I said originally, I don't care what Dean's response is to it - even him affirming that he agreed to it* will be okay -  but he (and we as his fans) absolutely deserve to hear it. A simple, heartfelt, "I'm sorry, you were right, I/we should've listened" isn't grovelling.

 

*Although in my opinion, Dean went along to get along. History has taught him what happens with his family when he doesn't.

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, Diane said:

I don't need to, I don't think this is a brother vs. brother argument for me.  I think they both know how important they are. I am hoping we don't get any big apologies or I told you so, that is not what I want to hear or see.  I am loving the fact that Sam & Dean are working together and are acting their ages this season.  No over the top mood swings and jealousies.  YMMV.

 I would much prefer Sam or Mary tell Dean to his face, that they regret not listening to him sooner, or that Mary regrets that she was pushing them away when they were reaching out.

IMO, that has nothing to do with mood swings, childish behavior, or petty jealousies between the brothers. I guess I don't quite understand how that is what you got out of me hoping that Dean gets some measure of validation.

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 It's not pathetic or sad or not adult. It's human. Dean is not that needy.  But Dean does need it.  JMHO. 

Again, agreed. I see this implication so often that it makes Dean 'needy' if he wants (or yes, needs) an apology (or validation, or simple gratitude) that anybody else would demand. I've even seen it applied to Jensen IRL, but that's another post for another time.

[Diane]

Just now, catrox14 said:

 I would much prefer Sam or Mary tell Dean to his face, that they regret not listening to him sooner, or that Mary regrets that she was pushing them away when they were reaching out.

IMO, that has nothing to do with mood swings, childish behavior, or petty jealousies between the brothers. I guess I don't quite understand how that is what you got out of me hoping that Dean gets some measure of validation.

I don't think that Dean needs any validation, Sam hasn't done anything wrong.  Dean agreed to work with the BMOL and they both agreed to stop if things went south.  Again they are grown men who make their own choices.  Dean hasn't shown any behavior that tells me he need them to tell him that they are sorry and we are wrong. Mary hasn't been there for either of her sons.  I think that she will regret that, but I also think she has no idea how to be a mother to 2 grown men. This is my opinion, I hope they don't waste the time on big apologies, I think they boys have worked past that already.

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, Diane said:

I don't think that Dean needs any validation, Sam hasn't done anything wrong.

Validation doesn't mean Sam did anything "wrong". I"m saying that maybe Sam will realize he as a little too dismissive of Dean's concerns and how Dean handled things early on. I do see a parallel with Max saying that he should have paid more attention to Alicia's instincts.  I don't think either is "WRONG" because it's more nuanced than that IMO. 

As to the BMOL, yes Dean did agree but my reading on how that whole thing went down is probably different than other viewer's.  IMO, Dean joined for emotional reasons rather than practical, hunting reasons. I've said before that IMO Dean acquiesced more than really being happy to join.  Sam joined because Mary joined. IMO, Sam saw it as a way to bond with Mary and for hunting reasons.  I've spoken of those before so I won't spend any more time on it.

I'm not trying to get you to see it my way, just elaborating on why I don't see Dean needing validation = Dean being needy. 

Edited May 9, 2017 by catrox14

[Geordiegirl1967]

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

On another topic, I agree with RulerofSurvey that there really isn't much call for an I told you so at this point. Sam and Dean were on more or less the same page again within an episode of Sam joining the MoL -- by which he apparently meant nothing more than agreeing to take cases from them. Sam came clean fairly quickly and acknowledged that he shouldn't have gone behind Dean's back; Dean moved on and agreed that working with the MoL made a certain amount of sense, even if he continued not to like it. Both were horrified by the MoL code. There's no reason for Sam to grovel.

I totally agree. I see no reason why Dean needs to be 'vindicated' or why Sam needs to eat humble pie. It was Sam who was tortured by them. If he could get past that to grudgingly and reluctantly and with his eyes open agree to do nothing more than take cases they sent their way, there is no reason for Dean to disagree. And based on what they knew it was by no means a stupid decision for either Mary or D&S to work with them. They are very good at killing monsters. They have amazing tech and research capacity. They save lives. And Mick was actually a good guy in the end. So working with them, based on what they knew (remember they knew nothing about their killing of the psychic girl or the soldiers) was perfectly reasonable. Just because Dean took more convincing and because it turns out they can't be trusted doesn't mean Dean is 'vindicated' or Sam or Mary have to apologise.

[Idahoforspn]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Validation doesn't mean Sam did anything "wrong". I"m saying that maybe Sam will realize he as a little too dismissive of Dean's concerns and how Dean handled things early on. I do see a parallel with Max saying that he should have paid more attention to Alicia's instincts.  I don't think either is "WRONG" because it's more nuanced than that IMO. 

As to the BMOL, yes Dean did agree but my reading on how that whole thing went down is probably different than other viewer's.  IMO, Dean joined for emotional reasons rather than practical, hunting reasons. I've said before that IMO Dean acquiesced more than really being happy to join.  Sam joined because Mary joined. IMO, Sam saw it as a way to bond with Mary and for hunting reasons.  I've spoken of those before so I won't spend any more time on it.

I'm not trying to get you to see it my way, just elaborating on why I don't see Dean needing validation = Dean being needy. 

IMO Sam and Mary chose the BMoL. Dean chose his family. Anyhow, that's how I see it.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 hours ago, companionenvy said:

The "I want to punch something" actually gives me some hope that it isn't Eileen, as that wording just doesn't strike me as appropriate in her case, given Sam's apparent regard for her.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I'm going out on a limb here and guess that Sam is talking about Magda. I'll bet they find out she's been murdered, but he doesn't know why so he says "I wanna punch something in the face"  in a general way. If he was talking about Eileen,  Garth, Claire, he better damn will say, "I wanna kill someone" because a punch in the face is not sufficient IMO. 

I really hope you are both right about this!  I was afraid (still am a little) that it was going to be Eileen on the table and about whom Sam was speaking when he says he wants to punch something.

I'm not sure Dean even deserves to be 'vindicated' in the way some obviously want.  The way I look at it is this: regardless of his reasons, he still agreed to work with the BMoL, and if his instincts were so good, then he should have continued doing more research into them on the side to prove he was right.  But we haven't seen that at all.  

[Idahoforspn]

7 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I really hope you are both right about this!  I was afraid (still am a little) that it was going to be Eileen on the table and about whom Sam was speaking when he says he wants to punch something.

I'm not sure Dean even deserves to be 'vindicated' in the way some obviously want.  The way I look at it is this: regardless of his reasons, he still agreed to work with the BMoL, and if his instincts were so good, then he should have continued doing more research into them on the side to prove he was right.  But we haven't seen that at all.  

And how exactly is Dean supposed to research the BMoL better than Sam and Mary have been able to do as they have been working for them for weeks.   I see it as recognizing Sam and Mary have been on the inside for weeks and should know something about them. I also think that whereas Sam and Mary chose the BMoL, Dean chose his family despite his gut feeling about the BMoL.. 

[Aeryn13]

Dean overdosed on valium for the last couple of episodes, that`s why he couldn`t investigate the BMOL. 

However, `Dabb already said there will be no validation. Though I reckon I will get some reverse-vindication via the bad guys. Mary obviously gets some good old BMOL "justice" from the other side of the table. And I reckon Ketch is probably gonna recount gleefully how he killed Magda and those Black Site operatives. So even if noone is saying anything, there would be egg all over their faces. Yeah, curse your sudden and unexpected betrayal. And if Dean sends a memo to himself to listen to his instincts in the future, I consider it a win.     

[Idahoforspn]

Just now, Aeryn13 said:

Dean overdosed on valium for the last couple of episodes, that`s why he couldn`t investigate the BMOL. 

However, `Dabb already said there will be no validation. Though I reckon I will get some reverse-vindication via the bad guys. Mary obviously gets some good old BMOL "justice" from the other side of the table. And I reckon Ketch is probably gonna recount gleefully how he killed Magda and those Black Site operatives. So even if noone is saying anything, there would be egg all over their faces. Yeah, curse your sudden and unexpected betrayal. And if Dean sends a memo to himself to listen to his instincts in the future, I consider it a win.     

Ditto.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

And how exactly is Dean supposed to research the BMoL better than Sam and Mary have been able to do as they have been working for them for weeks.

Well, he could put to use some of those sharp researching skills some people are so adamant which he possesses!  Why should Sam or Mary have been researching the BMoL at all after they agreed to work with them?  Seems to me, if you're wanting vindication for Dean's instinct that he was right to not want to work with them, he's the one who should have been working to prove it.  Then he would really have earned that vindication.  But by going along himself - regardless of his reasons - he accepted them at face value also.  No vindication earned for that.  

6 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

it as recognizing Sam and Mary have been on the inside for weeks and should know something about them.

By this time, Dean has also been on the inside for weeks - he's been to the compound, even interacted with Sketch more than Sam.  So, Dean should also know something about them.  But apparently, he doesn't either.  

8 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

I also think that whereas Sam and Mary chose the BMoL, Dean chose his family despite his gut feeling about the BMoL.. 

I don't know about Mary, but Sam chose to work with the BMoL for the same reason which Dean ultimately agreed to work them also: they got more cases than the Winchesters did doing it their old way, which meant that they (the brothers) saved more people.    

[Idahoforspn]

8 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Well, he could put to use some of those sharp researching skills some people are so adamant which he possesses!  

WOW!!

8 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

 

 

8 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Why should Sam or Mary have been researching the BMoL at all after they agreed to work with them?  Seems to me, if you're wanting vindication for Dean's instinct that he was right to not want to work with them, he's the one who should have been working to prove it.  Then he would really have earned that vindication.  But by going along himself - regardless of his reasons - he accepted them at face value also.  No vindication earned for that.  

By this time, Dean has also been on the inside for weeks -

He didn't know he was working for them. Sam hid where he got the cases from. The only time he'd been to their base was when he rushed(so very slowly) to save Mary.

Quote

he's been to the compound, even interacted with Sketch more than Sam.  So, Dean should also know something about them.  But apparently, he doesn't either.  

I don't know about Mary, but Sam chose to work with the BMoL for the same reason which Dean ultimately agreed to work them also: they got more cases than the Winchesters did doing it their old way, which meant that they (the brothers) saved more people.    

We'll just have to disagree on that one. Like I said, I think it was more Dean wanted to stay with his family and the only way to do that was to work with the BMOL. It was obvious Sam wasn't going to stop.

[gonzosgirrl]

36 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

<snip>

I'm not sure Dean even deserves to be 'vindicated' in the way some obviously want.  The way I look at it is this: regardless of his reasons, he still agreed to work with the BMoL, and if his instincts were so good, then he should have continued doing more research into them on the side to prove he was right.  But we haven't seen that at all.  

So that he could be told he doesn't trust/respect his brother or his instincts, or treat him as an equal? They had him specifically say he's going along for Sam, trusting [his] instincts over his own. Nobody is asking the to have Sam grovel, but having a little vindication for Dean after all the shit he's made to eat would be nice.

[catrox14]

I don't understand why the onus should be on Dean to do more research into a group that had already shown their shitty hand. Dean deemed them NOT worthwhile for the strongest personal reason imaginable: they tortured Sam and tried to kill both of them.  He didn't forget that. He didn't care that Lady PleaseGetPokedIntheEyewithaRustySpork was being painted as a rogue.  He rejected that right away and he only acquiesced after Sam joined. Why should he have bothered to prove something was already known? 

[MysteryGuest]

I have a feeling it might be Crowley that we lose this season.  I've been checking out his Twitter account, and most of his tweets are about the band he's now playing with.  He might have decided he wants to pursue that for a while.  I hope it doesn't happen, but I won't be terribly surprised if it does.

I don't need or want anyone to grovel to Dean, and he wouldn't want that either.  What I do want though is for Mary (if they don't kill her off first) to apologize to both Sam and Dean for lying to them for months about what she was doing, and for dragging them into this BMOL mess.  Sam's willingness to join up made zero sense to me, considering it came right on the heels of a serious fuck up that almost got everyone killed.  There was absolutely nothing to be impressed about, but it was evidently enough for Sam.  Because it made no sense, my head canon is that Sam joined simply to be there for Mary, not because he thought it was such a great idea.  The BMOL are exactly who Lady Dipshit showed them to be, so they were absolutely right to not trust them at all.  

I want Mary to take some responsibility for her bad choices, rather than trying to justify them, which is what she's done so far.  But I really don't want this to be some big death scene confession.  I want her to live this season so Sam and Dean can have their mother back, at least for a while.  She doesn't need to be in as many episodes next season, if they don't want her to be, but I will be pissed if they kill her off just when she's finally starting to act like a mother to the boys.

[Demented Daisy]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

As I said originally, I don't care what Dean's response is to it - even him affirming that he agreed to it* will be okay -  but he (and we as his fans) absolutely deserve to hear it.

As a Dean fan, I'd like to say that I don't need (or deserve) to hear it.

[auntvi]

1 hour ago, Idahoforspn said:

The only time he'd been to their base was when he rushed(so very slowly) to save Mary.

He went to the base with Sam to meet with Mick to get specific info on werewolves in ep  16.

[Idahoforspn]

1 minute ago, auntvi said:

He went to the base with Sam to meet with Mick to get specific info on werewolves in ep  16.

I believe that occurred in Ladies Drink Free which was the next episode after the episode where Dean agreed to work with the BMoL if that's what Sam wanted.

[ILoveReading]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So that he could be told he doesn't trust/respect his brother or his instincts, or treat him as an equal? They had him specifically say he's going along for Sam, trusting [his] instincts over his own. Nobody is asking the to have Sam grovel, but having a little vindication for Dean after all the shit he's made to eat would be nice.

I'd like to see this as well. I don't need Sam to grovel, or for the scene to go on for five minutes or for the past to be brought up, just Sam saying he should have listened to Dean's instincts, just like Max said he should have listened to Alicia.   

I've always felt that Sam didn't' join just for Mary.  I feel like even without Mary he still would have eventually asked for a decoder ring.  After all he was the one who contacted Mick (behind Dean's back) before they even tried to recruit Mary.  I think Mary might have been a part of it, but I think he mostly joined up because he was impressed by their tech, and their mission startment.  He did tell Mick that he wanted to be a part of their team and we saw him having very little contact with Mary after that.

Yeah, Dean spent time with Ketch but he immediately knew he was bad news. 

[Idahoforspn]

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I'd like to see this as well. I don't need Sam to grovel, or for the scene to go on for five minutes or for the past to be brought up, just Sam saying he should have listened to Dean's instincts, just like Max said he should have listened to Alicia.   

I've always felt that Sam didn't' join just for Mary.  I feel like even without Mary he still would have eventually asked for a decoder ring.  After all he was the one who contacted Mick (behind Dean's back) before they even tried to recruit Mary.  I think Mary might have been a part of it, but I think he mostly joined up because he was impressed by their tech, and their mission startment.  He did tell Mick that he wanted to be a part of their team and we saw him having very little contact with Mary after that.

Agreed!

[gonzosgirrl]

57 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

As a Dean fan, I'd like to say that I don't need (or deserve) to hear it.

Point taken. I honestly thought twice after typing that, and you're right. I should have said "I" not "we". Mea culpa.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 hours ago, Idahoforspn said:

He didn't know he was working for them. Sam hid where he got the cases from. The only time he'd been to their base was when he rushed(so very slowly) to save Mary.

Moved to All Episodes, because I don't think any of this is speculation.