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Spoilers With Speculation

SueB

By SueB
in Supernatural

ohjoy
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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ILoveReading

ILoveReading

(edited)

Very little about the BMoL's has made sense since they were introduced. 

The said they've been watching Sam and Dean for a long time and considered them a threat, so they decide the time to act on this is literally when there are hours left for the world.  So Lady Toni gets on a plane to go find them rather than spend those few precious hours with her son. 

Then she kidnaps and tortures Sam even though she actually wants his help to recruit American hunters to help rid the world of monsters.  You would think asking politely would get a better response. 

The only thing I can think of is that Dabb seems to have a limp Sam fetish.   No other logic makes sense. 

Then there was the interview Dabb gave about how things changed drastically when Sam and Dean were locked up, Mary and Cas bonded, and how Sam and Dean would come to respect their British counterparts.  None of that actually played out on screen.

We only saw them try to recruit one hunter and he turned them down flat.  Mary still cold and unattached to anyone, and we know that in 3 more episodes they are going to betray Mary.  So I don't see Sam and Dean respecting them at all. 

Since Dabb wrote this episode and it seemed the exact opposite of everything he said in the interview, I'm guessing TPTB don't have a clue what they are really doing either.

Edited by ILoveReading
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PeterKahlke
PeterKahlke

NEXT ON SUPERNATURAL Sam and Dean search for the yellow-eyed thing that killed their mom.

devlin
devlin

I don’t care who JA is going to be playing. I could seriously watch this guy read the phone book and be completely enthralled. I am just looking forward to some powerhouse acting full of nuances by wh

gonzosgirrl
gonzosgirrl

So, so over it. You're a big boy - if you don't agree, put up or shut your judgey piehole.

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catrox14

catrox14

12 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The only thing I can think of is that Dabb seems to have a limp Sam fetish.   No other logic makes sense. 

Ha, and I thought he had a SuperSam fetish given Red Meat and even the torture episode where I thought it was supposed to show just how much Sam can endure and still fight back as much as he can.  I guess Dabb has both fetishes!

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ILoveReading

ILoveReading

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Ha, and I thought he had a SuperSam fetish given Red Meat and even the torture episode where I thought it was supposed to show just how much Sam can endure and still fight back as much as he can.  I guess Dabb has both fetishes!

I should have said a Limp SuperSam fetish.  He also seems to have a weak Dean fetish.  In his last few episodes Dean's been reduced to a literal babysitter (Form and Void), written out with Smitting sickness (which we've never seen before or since.)  He was easily taken down in Red Meat, as well as the Bristish Men of Letters lady in 12.1.  Now this ep he had to show us Dean breaking and calling Billie.

I don't count Alpha and Omega because from the sounds of it, it was heavily re-written with a lot of input from Jensen, Jared, Misha and Mark.  I'd be interested in reading Dabb's original script.

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catrox14

catrox14

9 minutes ago, SueB said:

This calculates filming thru late April.  If correct, that's going to be a strain on Gen and Jared with the baby coming in March.

Maybe not.

If Genevieve is due towards the end of March they might just film the episodes out of order to accommodate Jared maybe missing a few days and then be on hiatus a couple of weeks later. Jared said that Shep and Tom were born in Seattle, so maybe that will be the same for the new baby.  If so then they only have to worry about a quick flight or drive from Vancouver to Seattle. Jensen was filming right up to hours before the twins were born.  And then he went to a con that same weekend. and the Christmas break came like a week later I think. 

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I don't count Alpha and Omega because from the sounds of it, it was heavily re-written with a lot of input from Jensen, Jared, Misha and Mark.  I'd be interested in reading Dabb's original script

Yeah from what Jensen said those final 4 episodes were all reworked and collaborative.  Who knows!

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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

(edited)
2 hours ago, ZennyKenny said:

The more I think about it, the less sense the first two episodes of the season make. We're being introduced to these new BMoL guys who are taking the friendliest approach possible; using calm logic and reason, and not even retaliating when being insulted to their face by hunters, as seen in this episode.

So what the hell was the point to all that torture from Lady McWhatever & her partner? I mean they aren't even around anymore, and no one else acts like them! I mean sure she might show up later on, who knows. But my point is that was the worst possible way to introduce this whole new world of people to us. The more I think about it the more it irritates me.

My theory is the BMoL has an extremist group working inside it being led by Lady Toni. I think that group is the Big Bad for the season. I'm guessing, eventually Mr. "Nice" BMoL will team up with the Winchesters to rid the BMoL of these extremists. I'm not sure which camp Mr. Ketch will end up in. As of now, I'm thinking he'll stick with the extremists in the end.

Edited by DittyDotDot
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MysteryGuest

MysteryGuest

I think the whole plan is to keep us guessing on the BMOL.  They've set it up right now to look like Lady Toni is the bad guy, Mr. Ketch is the clean up man, and Mr. Nice Guy just wants to be helpful to the American hunters, but I'm not falling for it.  

First off, Ketch is a killing machine with no qualms about killing the innocent, or killing humans.  He can play up the James Bond act, but he's a monster, himself.  Mr. NIce Guy is fully aware of what Ketch does, in fact I think he gives him his orders, so even though we're seeing him as Mr. Affable, I'm not buying it for a second.  And I still think that they showed Lady Toni being a loving mother in the beginning so that we could think of her as a sympathetic character later in the season, even after the torture episodes.  We'll be given an explanation for why she went off the rails, and she will be the "good guy" who comes around to Sam and Dean's way of thinking, probably when her child is threatened in some way.  At least this is what I think for now. 

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ZennyKenny

ZennyKenny

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Then there was the interview Dabb gave about how things changed drastically when Sam and Dean were locked up, Mary and Cas bonded, and how Sam and Dean would come to respect their British counterparts.  None of that actually played out on screen.

Good god, I really hope they don't  consider that whole "Let's go kill the monsters together", "nah I suck" conversation between Mary & Cas as "bonding".

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goldy

goldy

29 minutes ago, catrox14 said:
Jared spotted on set. Wonder if this might be a Claire episode

According to this site, it is.

Quote

Guest stars: Kathryn Love Newton (Claire Novak),, Adam Fergus (Mick), Ryan McDonnell (Connor), Abby Ross (Hayden Foster), Miranda Frigon (Abby’s mom), Manoj Sood (Doctor).

Other Spoilers/info (newest to oldest):

Jared and Kathryn were spotted filming outside by a car

Jared and Jensen filmed in a set looking like a hotel/nice house with Adam (Mick)

Also saw some more pics here:

 

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SueB

SueB

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(edited)

Poor Sam!  Mom and Dad are fighting.  Good on him for forcing the conversation.   See... the sad thing is that Cas learned a lot of his interpersonal skills from Dean.  THIS IS A BAD THING.  And I find the fact that an Angel and a guy are having a silent-off pretty funny.  I'm sure it's not actually a funny situation, but I thoroughly enjoyed that clip of non-talk and appreciate little moments of everyday funny in otherwise dire circumstances.  

I'll also bet Cas is pissed at Dean for the whole "deal" thing again.  

But since Dean says "Oh, he talks!" dripping with sarcasm.  I'm guessing that Cas is in trouble, doesn't want the boys to help, they are not going to let him deal with this alone and Cas is not talking about it.  

In the immortal words of Hermione Granger: "Boys."

ETA: That LOOK Cas gives Dean at the end?  Oh boy, is he pissed or what.  Dean you in trouuuuuubbbble.

Edited by SueB
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catrox14

catrox14

19 minutes ago, SueB said:

Poor Sam!  Mom and Dad are fighting.  Good on him for forcing the conversation.   See... the sad thing is that Cas learned a lot of his interpersonal skills from Dean.  THIS IS A BAD THING

Seems to me Dean was expecting some kind of answer from Cas about something given him saying "Oh, he speaks".    I guess I don't get why is Dean getting grief here for Cas not talking? They are clearly having a spat of some kind.

Cas is a thousands-year old supernatural being who has been on Earth for 8 years and has had exposure to humanity including when he was  human and Dean wasn't even around him. Sorry but it's not like Dean raised Cas or that Cas doesn't have his own personality and can't make his own choices to not communicate. We saw him do that in s6 when he was lying to Dean's face.

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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

It`s probably gonna be some "mean Dean, wah" stuff. Where Sam fills the saint role again. Whatever. Personally, I don`t think Cas is that much of a woobie he can`t handle people being mad at him. Nor do I think Dean is "mean" when he is angry at someone. Or at fault for everything. No matter what bs they try to sell me.

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Diane

Diane

(edited)

My take on it is Dean is mad and Cass is pouting.  As far as I can tell it has never been all of Dean's fault, there has been plenty of that to go around.  YMMV

Edited by Diane
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catrox14

catrox14

I think all three are scared and angry with each other. So they are sniping at each other. Dean is likely angry with Cas for killing Billie  which puts Cas  in the reapers cross hairs. Cas is angry with both Dean and Sam for making a deal leaving him to feel compelled to kill a reaper to save them. I had the impression that Cas felt the world needed the Winchesters more than not, to risk Billie reaping one of them, which makes me wonder what Cas knows that they don't.

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Diane

Diane

It didn't look like Sam was mad more frustrated or uncomfortable riding with both Dean and Cas not talking. I think we are all probably reading more into it then what it is. 

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ahrtee

ahrtee

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I'm guessing Dabb's tweet is a line from Lily, Crowley or Rowena

Well, since Lily has apparently waited 100 years for revenge....I'm guessing it's her line?

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catrox14

catrox14

So there were no reprecusssions when Dean killed actual!Death and a reaper, but now ther is for Cas. I'm guessing the rationale will be angel on angel death but that always been a thing. And honestly Dean and Sam being mad at Cas for saving them, as that clip implies, is bullshit, unless the anger is rooted in their fear for Cas' safety

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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

Yeah, I find it annoying too. I guess the reason is that killing "Death", either the old Death or now upstart Billie, really does mean nothing and has no consequences but breaking that utterly stupid, overdramatic deal does. In which case, you can blame it on the brothers more than Cas for making the deal. 

That said, why did killing Billie break it? Couldn`t another Reaper cash in? Why was that deal tied to Billie`s life? Oh, I know, because of reasons. And if either brother (or Mary) kills themselves and fulfills the deal after all, consequences are off? Or was it specific to that day? Why bother, the writers didn`t care to think of a plot that makes sense, why should I. 

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ILoveReading

ILoveReading

(edited)
Quote

Yeah, I find it annoying too. I guess the reason is that killing "Death", either the old Death or now upstart Billie, really does mean nothing and has no consequences but breaking that utterly stupid, overdramatic deal does. In which case, you can blame it on the brothers more than Cas for making the deal.

I saw on Tumblr that Misha at Houston Con that Cas is more powerful than he's supposed to be.  So I'd guess that Cas becomes a reaper and he has to fulfill the deal and pick a Winchester to die.

Dean broke a deal too when he killed Death.  So other than its Dean, who Dabb has no interest in, I can't think of any other reason why there would be consequences.

Edited by ILoveReading
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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)
16 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I saw on Tumblr that Misha at Houston Con that Cas is more powerful than he's supposed to be.  So I'd guess that Cas becomes a reaper and he has to fulfill the deal and pick a Winchester to die.

Cas could just go into Hell, get Adam, expel Michael with the magic egg, resurrect Adam and send him to Heaven.

What still doesn't make any sense is that reapers do not kill. They just reap those that die.  So if Dean and/or Sam reneged on the deal what would Billie have even done? She would be going outside of reapers rules to kill one of them. So what would have to happen is one of them kills themselves or the other one. So I don't see how Cas killing her changes anything.

Edited by catrox14
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ZennyKenny

ZennyKenny

I have a question: Why is Billie the only reaper pissed off enough that Dean murdered Death enough to want him dead? I get that there's probably a hierarchy and Billie was just the next in command, but why aren't there like a thousand other reapers waiting in line to take Billie's place?

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auntvi

auntvi

You're right, where are the rest of the reapers?  At the beginning of season 11, Billie tells Sam that Death enjoyed Sam & Dean but I don't remember if she mentioned other reapers. The only other reaper we've met is Tessa, right? Demon-Dean killed her and there were no cosmic repercussions that I remember.  

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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

(edited)

Since the reapers all seemed to have went rogue back in S8, I'm guessing they're probably happy Death is dead. Probably would like to throw Dean a party. ;)

ETA: So, Dean's pissed because Cass saved them and damned the cosmic circumstances? Hypocrite much?

Edited by DittyDotDot
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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

So this is SPN's Kill Bill episode?

I can't begin to say how annoyed i am with, "Angels hadn't been on earth for thousands of years... well... except this one time...."  Ugh.

21 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

So, Dean's pissed because Cass saved them and damned the cosmic circumstances? Hypocrite much?

I know, I can almost hear him now.  "Cas, it was our deal.  You screwed all of us now.  Blah blah blah."

I had hope, when the BMoL was introduced, that we would finally have a season of (what was left of) TFW working together again, against an enemy.  But no, here we are again, fighting amongst themselves because they had the audacity to save each other.  

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catrox14

catrox14

1 hour ago, auntvi said:

You're right, where are the rest of the reapers?  At the beginning of season 11, Billie tells Sam that Death enjoyed Sam & Dean but I don't remember if she mentioned other reapers. The only other reaper we've met is Tessa, right? Demon-Dean killed her and there were no cosmic repercussions that I remember.  

Maybe Billie was the last reaper? And she was working overtime? Maybe now we get the no one should die or the dead never get reaped now? So they just wander the earth?

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MysteryGuest

MysteryGuest

I think what's supposed to have made this deal "different" is that they took a blood oath.  That must make it an extra super special deal.  But what other cosmic consequences can there be?  Does God have another pissed off sibling hiding somewhere?

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ZennyKenny

ZennyKenny

1 hour ago, Demented Daisy said:

I can't begin to say how annoyed i am with, "Angels hadn't been on earth for thousands of years... well... except this one time...."  Ugh.

I know, right? It's just so out of left field, and doesn't serve any purpose other than needlessly complicating the lore.

Plus, it's a tad unbelievable. So God charges the angels to watch over mankind, a command that not only do they take very seriously, but are bored out of their skulls doing it (as per Cas). But they don't come down for a visit even once? Oh excuse me, I mean 'even twice'? No interaction, no intervening, not even when a particularly obnoxious demon or two starts being disruptive? Why even bother watching over the humans then?

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catrox14

catrox14

You know what I could buy is if they were a group of Grigori angels that chose to fall like Anna but don't remember and then they all remember for reasons at the time period in the flashback and get there grace etc.

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catrox14

catrox14

http://www.spoilertv.com/2017/02/supernatural-episode-1213-family-feud.html

Quote

“Family Feud” — (8:00-9:00 p.m. ET) (Content Rating TBD) (HDTV)

SAM AND DEAN ASK ROWENA TO FIND CROWLEY’S SON – When Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) look into a murder at a museum, they learn a ghost from a merchant ship that sunk in 1723 may be at the heart of the mystery. After realizing “The Star” was the same ship that Crowley’s (Mark A. Sheppard) son Gavin McLeod (guest star Theo Devaney) should have been aboard, they enlist help from Rowena (guest star Ruth Connell) to track Gavin down. Kelly Kline (guest star Courtney Ford), still pregnant with Lucifer’s child, takes refuge with a demon after an angel attempts to kill her. PJ Pesce directed the episode written by Brad Buckner and Eugenie Ross-Leming (#1213). Original airdate 2/23/2107.

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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

12.11 "Regarding Dean" Trailer

 

::snort:: "Do we have to fix him?"

Oh, Rowena, you are a delight!

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

“Family Feud” — (8:00-9:00 p.m. ET) (Content Rating TBD) (HDTV)

SAM AND DEAN ASK ROWENA TO FIND CROWLEY’S SON – When Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) look into a murder at a museum, they learn a ghost from a merchant ship that sunk in 1723 may be at the heart of the mystery. After realizing “The Star” was the same ship that Crowley’s (Mark A. Sheppard) son Gavin McLeod (guest star Theo Devaney) should have been aboard, they enlist help from Rowena (guest star Ruth Connell) to track Gavin down. Kelly Kline (guest star Courtney Ford), still pregnant with Lucifer’s child, takes refuge with a demon after an angel attempts to kill her. PJ Pesce directed the episode written by Brad Buckner and Eugenie Ross-Leming (#1213). Original airdate 2/23/2107.

Preparing for more nonsensical suckage.

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