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Spoilers With Speculation

SueB

By SueB
in Supernatural

ohjoy
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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PeterKahlke
PeterKahlke

NEXT ON SUPERNATURAL Sam and Dean search for the yellow-eyed thing that killed their mom.

devlin
devlin

I don’t care who JA is going to be playing. I could seriously watch this guy read the phone book and be completely enthralled. I am just looking forward to some powerhouse acting full of nuances by wh

gonzosgirrl
gonzosgirrl

So, so over it. You're a big boy - if you don't agree, put up or shut your judgey piehole.

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Pete Martell

Pete Martell

I'd love to see Danneel on the show, especially since I believe the main reason she never appeared was because she knew some fans hate her so much.

 

I wouldn't want to see her in this role because it sounds like it may be some type of dubious consent scenario, and I don't want to see a husband and wife playing those scenes. I don't want to see anyone playing them.

AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

@catrox14: If it was a buxom woman in thigh high boots with a riding crop, Demon Dean would so be the bottom, in my opinion. Even regular Dean was into that kind of thing a bit I think from what I saw in "The Slice Girls." He seemed to be enjoying that Amazon woman throwing him around.

 

I could imagine Sam similarly, but for different reasons. Sam might go for more pain (he doesn't deal with guilt so well, and I could see him letting it go that way).

SueB

SueB

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I could imagine Sam similarly, but for different reasons.

 

Okay. Stop now.  I can't get this image (of either Sam OR Dean out of my mind).  So... I have to comment:

- Sam likes to dominate IMO.

- Dean likes the girl on top (only love scene where that didn't happen was the quick to cut one w/ Lisa).  But will Demon!Dean have the same preferences? IDK.

catrox14

catrox14

What I find so funny and alternately absurd about the notions that Dean is a misogynist dick that hates and likes to control women and "they" point to his sexual behavior and I just laugh. Sure Dean is a horndog and likes casual sex, but IMO he's more respectful than not towards these women and he's almost always the bottom unless he's topping from the bottom and I don't think that's true at all. 

 

That's why sexual behavior as marker of Demon!Dean seems so inconsequential

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AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

Okay - this is probably more thought and words than this deserves, so feel free to skip some. Heck hubby's on a work trip and I was bored and avoiding housework, so... I'll highlight the important parts for you guys.

- Sam likes to dominate IMO.

 

I can see this, but I tend to go both ways on this point. I tend to think more aggressive than dominant.

 

I just watched "Heart" today, and though the scene with Madison was shot choppily, and I agree that Sam is more aggressive than Dean, it appears, (and he likes to bite), Madison was on top some of the time, too, and she bit right back (which Sam seemed to enjoy.) Sam also seems to really like the sitting up face to face position (which happened both with Madison and Ruby) and a lot of kissing during sex*. But in part, I agree. I think Sam either likes to be dominant or Sam goes both ways (not like that ;) - mind out of gutter guys - heh) But, I think Sam let Ruby dominate him from the bottom as you say. She had the strings in that sexual relationship, in my opinion, and Sam continued to go back... and likely only partially for the blood. So in a relationship, I can see Sam going both ways in that department. Not so much Soulless Sam though.

 

But the reason I said  "for different reasons" was... I was trying to subtly say that I could imagine Sam indulging in something like that for mostly non-sexual reasons. In other words, masochism/pain for a release of guilt or to punish himself... sort of like the torture he put himself through with his Lucifer hallucinations yet thought he somewhat deserved them and/or thought he was getting off easy with only having them.

 

* For me that seems to be the biggest difference. Dean seems to be more about just looking at his partner (like Anna for example) for connection while Sam likes kissing.

 

Now that I let myself get distracted by that and have obviously thought waaay too much about it - but hey if you're going to be a somewhat obsessive fan, dang it, go for it I say - back to the topic at hand...

 

 

But will Demon!Dean have the same preferences? IDK.

 

This is the question I guess, but the show is going to have to approach it carefully in my opinion, and more importantly decide what it means. For example, showing Sam having sex casually and - maybe more importantly - with married women, something he'd normally be appalled that he'd do in the past (and again, dammit Carver, for screwing with that also) as examples of his soullessness made sense, because of the point they were trying to make with that: not his aggressiveness or rambunctiousness about it, because that part was already in Sam's repertoire, but that without the soul restraint, Sam would just go for it whenever and with whoever without guilt. So it was showing that Soulless Sam = lack of guilt and restraint.

 

But is that what they want to show with Demon Dean? And if so, how would that change with sex? Because I agree with @catrox14 that it wouldn't make much sense. Dean didn't really have the... hang-ups * I guess you'd call them about sex that Sam did, so lack of inhibition isn't going to show any change... unless he goes for more as in more... which was where I was going subtly again (which apparently I'm bad at ;) ) with the thigh high boots and riding crop comment. If they are going for a Dean doesn't give a crap as in he doesn't feel enough any more, I could imagine Demon Dean needing more - as in just regular sex isn't enough, but him needing something more intense, and since he'd need to be the one feeling it... that's where that came from... the physical sensation needing to be more.

 

* For example: Ava. Sam wouldn't even consider pursuing her romantically, because she was engaged. Dean - "so?" (I'm guessing not married = fair game for Dean... and in a way it is, but Sam had an obvious hang-up about that and was somewhat appalled at the thought.)

 

If they are supposedly  going to be trying to show Demon Dean as being "evil" through sex... I don't think the show is going to want to go there. The only exception I could see - and let's for fun tie this in with the pissing off the bar with song question - would be Dean purposely seducing another man's wife, girlfriend, etc. away from him just for kicks. As for example, maybe that karaoke song could be something like "Let's Get It On" dedicated especially to the ladies in the bar - which could potentially piss off a bunch of drunk and jealous boyfriends or husbands I can imagine... and start a bunch of bar fights to boot. Now for me that would work, because I don't think it's something regular Dean would purposely do, but Demon Dean wouldn't give a crap about how the other guys would feel and it would be bad behavior. But that's the only thing that I can think of that wouldn't verge into non-con territory that would be sexual behavior that's non-regular Dean and at least jerky if not really evil.

 

The other way they could go in a sexual way with Dean not giving a crap... well they won't go there either. For example Vampire Willow at the time definitely had broader sexual horizons than regular Willow. Similar for vampire Spike, who was a stuffy little poet until he became a vampire. However, Buffy also had no qualms about non-con being common with their vampires either... all indulged as far as I remember - Angelus preferred nuns even - and the show didn't hide that at all. So Vampire Willow being bi-sexual was minor compared to that... I forget sometimes that in some ways Buffy was darker than Supernatural.

 

I guess what I really would want would be that sex not be used to show Dean's being a demon at all - because as @catrox14 said, it either seems a strange choice based on regular Dean or the implications are going to be nasty and they should be ready for the consequences. It seems that there would be much easier and demonstrative ways to show Dean being a demon than that. The only exception that I can see would be the one I mentioned above.

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SueB

SueB

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(edited)

 

I guess what I really would want would be that sex not be used to show Dean's being a demon at all - because as catrox14 said, it either seems a strange choice based on regular Dean or the implications are going to be nasty and they should be ready for the consequences. It seems that there would be much easier and demonstrative ways to show Dean being a demon than that. The only exception that I can see would be the one I mentioned above.

I think we are not actually going to like Demon!Dean -- so being icky is within the realm of what they might write IMO.  This is something to be fixed.  Just like they went "too far" it seemed with Soulless Sam trying to kill Bobby.  We have to want Dean to NOT be a demon.  Jensen said it's NOT funny.  So, I'm gearing up for "ugly".

 

Dean has been a little more laid back since Emma (you know, the monster daughter Sam killed because Dean couldn't... yeah, I'm a bit bitter that was never mentioned again).  But if you look at his one night stands since Emma was born he's had very little and even mentioned the episode afterwords he was going to start being more careful. In S8, with the exception of being flustered over Aaron pretending to hit on him, Dean didn't even talk about having random hookups.  Plenty of Japanese cartoon porn tho.  In S9 he mentions his "dates" ended when the singles ran out (i.e. he's paying for dances, not sex?). Then he has sex with the chastity counselor.  Now on the one hand that's kinda Amazon-woman stupid because he had sex in the middle of a case and they are researching sex-related disappearances. OTOH, he apparently "knew her work" enough that her being a supernatural monster seemed less likely.  So... I can see that as "safe sex" -- supernaturally speaking.  Later, post Kevin's death (as he's on his downward spiral), he's giving an eye to a waitress and Sam talks about him lying about his age to another waitress.  So he may have started to revive his hound dog ways in the later half of S9 but not in a big way.

 

So... Dean going on a sex bender because he doesn't care --- makes sense if you see that he had been restraining himself after the unplanned monster pregnancy.  One could also argue his sexual appetites had been reduced as he reached mid-thirties. In that case, demon stamina may have fired his libido back up some.  In either case, I think the audience would need to hear WHY he's sleeping around so much or something along the lines of feeling like he's 20 years old again to make the connection that being a demon changed his sexual behaviors.  Otherwise, the show is really counting on us to have paid attention to Dean being less active.  OR...they do a squick thing as suggested above... OR they show it takes more extremes to make him sated. 

 

Rambling now....

 

ETA: And I agree with your assessment of Sam's proclivities @AwesomeO4000.  I was just being thrifty with words at the time.

Edited by SueB
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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

If they go for rape or something like that, I`d consider it nothing but character bashing when of course for Soulless Sam they not only had to give him the ultimate white-wash but also took care to present it as "oh, look at the stud, isn`t he great?" I hate their versus writing with Dean always being on the losing end as it is, throwing the character down the river because of some "oh, dark" kink would be the final straw.

 

From what Jensen said, I imagine Demon!Dean is gonna be a dick to women in the sense of "the morning after". Like, he is capable of turning on the charme to get laid. And he - as well as the woman - has a fun time during. But afterwards he is getting snarky and mean. Maybe unfavourably commenting on their looks, performance, prospects. Which is not what regular Dean would do in the slightest.    

catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

It's one thing for Soulless Sam to pay for hookers, or sleep with someone whilst on  a case, which by the way he did even as Regular!Sam in Sex and Violence, or to beat a cop because he thinks the cop is going to compromise a mission or even try to kill Bobby who Soulless Sam perceived to be a threat, but Soulless Sam never sexually assaulted anyone or coerced anyone into sex, not that I can remember.  Even when Sam was hopped up on demon blood the only person he actually harmed other than the nurse, was Dean, generally speaking.

 

But Demon!Dean is Dean Winchester (/gross sobbing) It's Dean's mind and body with Dean's memories and Dean's newly twisted and broken soul. He's not being possessed by another demon and he is not soulless. He's evil now. :(:( (ARGGHHHH).

 

Dean might not always have been a nice guy, but IMO he was a good person at heart who generally meant well. He made a lot of mistakes and did some really questionable and outright terrible things in order to Save Sammy and the whole Lisa/Ben mind wipe disaster. His greatest gift was his own imperfect humanity and his love for humanity and all things human. Outside of Castiel and Anna, he didn't want to be friends with demons or angels and wanted Earth for humans, not demons or angels. 

 

Part of Dean's wonderful humanity was being a notorious flirt and having casual sex with consenting partners. He calls demons and monsters "bitch" but he never crossed those lines with human women. And IMO he was always respectful with his partners.

 

So for me, if we take into account Jensen's own description that "Dean doesn't care about anyone or anything" and that he's going to do what he wants, when he wants and I presume that means taking what he wants if it's not given. Combine that with a lifting of Dean's sexual repression that sure points to some potentially really terrible sexual behavior on Dean's part. It would make Dean a sexual predator and he has NEVER been that. It's asking an awful lot from a largely female audience to watch your previously heroic character commit sexual assault or be abusive and then forgive it, just because he's Demon!Dean, no matter how much we love Dean Winchester.  That's why I really hope they don't use sexual behavior as a signpost for Demon!Dean.  I don't see how they can fix him being a sexual predator if that is what he does. :(

Edited by catrox14
Aeryn13

Aeryn13

(edited)

 

It's asking an awful lot from a largely female audience to watch your previously heroic character commit sexual assault or be abusive and then forgive it, just because he's Demon!Dean, no matter how much we love Dean Winchester.

 

Ironically, and especially on this network, it is generally NOT too much to ask. Vampire Diaries, Originals and heck, even the more "grounded in real life" Gossip Girl pulled it off, with a female teen fanbase to boot. Buffy pulled it off, too.

 

However, I don`t think it would work on Supernatural.This is not the kind of show that has taken so much moral liberties with its characters previously that audience take it in stride when they stray or stray again. At least not acknowledged moral liberties because the cold stabbing of demon hosts has been going on for years. 

 

But Supernatural works differently in how it chooses to depict its protagonists so far and how far they have taken them. So I do hope they don`t throw out only and specifically Dean`s character over any lines they can`t take him back from simply because they are careless or even intentionally.

 

That said, Jensen also in the first interviews said that in his opinion Demon!Dean doesn`t do anything that regular Dean would feel overcame everything good he ever did. And for an actor who back in Season 1 even initially refused to portray his character hitting a female character onscreen, I think he`d balk at the depiction of rape. Back in Buffy, James Marsters really had a problem with it.

 

Also, there is textually no need to do it. Demon!Dean is not Quasimodo. Nor is he incapable of acting a certain way. Like for exampe, be charming for a minute or so. It is in no way stretching the realms of credibility that if he wants sex, he has no problem finding WILLING partners.

Edited by Aeryn13
catrox14

catrox14

That's a good point @Aeryn13 about Jensen's comments. That does make me feel a little bit better but I guess I still have issues.  As to your point about Vampire Diaires and the Originals, I don't watch those but I would imagine that  the characters being vampires and monsters are considered heroes in their monster worlds where there would be monster mobsters and they would do some really shitty things like rape etc but because it's monsters it's kind of, I dunno, part and parcel of their world? So the audience might even want to see that kind of behavior in those stories? I guess I'm thinking of the Twilight crowd vs the Angel/Buffy crowd.  I really don't know, just guessing.

 

For me the difference is that Sam and Dean have always been human heroes fighting the monsters. Now, personally I think Carver has either forgotten that about his two lead characters or that he actively wants to make them dark anti-heroes (who's the real monster...blah).

catrox14

catrox14

If Demon Dean rapes a woman, I am done with this show.

 

I know people say that a lot, but continue watching.  Not me.  Not this time.  

 

I'm not asking anyone to join me.  I'm only stating my intent.  

 

I would probably watch only to see if how they handled it.  Of course, poor Castiel was raped and that was played off like a joke :(.

 

If that did happen, I don't think regular!Dean could live with himself anymore knowing he did that as Demon!Dean.  I think he'd kill himself or just flat out go on another suicide mission. 

Aeryn13

Aeryn13

 

For me the difference is that Sam and Dean have always been human heroes fighting the monsters. Now, personally I think Carver has either forgotten that about his two lead characters or that he actively wants to make them dark anti-heroes (who's the real monster...blah).

 

If he actually wanted to explore that,there would be ample opportunities without going the demon route. The callous killing of the hosts alone would provide it. 

 

I`m already wary of Demon!Dean killing random folks because he picked a fight with them/they with him. They could still easily make it other demons/monsters he killed. And I`d readily believe Demon!Dean to be the kind of guy who doesn`t suddenly cuddle up to other demons but to fight with anyone and anything. Just for fun.

 

As for the shows I mentioned being VERY lenient with the morality of its characters, it isn`t even because they are vamps/supernatural so much so that on those shows a little bit of murder/mayhem/sexual abuse is just considered akin to "acting up" or "having a bad day". It`s just not a big deal. The only standard of good behaviour is following their tribal mentality to a T. What Dean did last year with Gadreel via healing Sam would be met with a "that was kinda not okay but actually really fantastic, high five" reaction. And any mayhem as a demon readily waved away within seconds afterwards. It can work if that has always been the reality and context of a show because you always know what you get.  

AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

So... Dean going on a sex bender because he doesn't care --- makes sense if you see that he had been restraining himself after the unplanned monster pregnancy.

 

This is a good point, @SueB. It wouldn't be "evil" (nor would it be out of usual character per se as it generally was for Sam), but it would be different than Dean's current norm, though I agree that just a little explanation may help remind those of us who need it... however as we both said, how it is presented may likely also depend on what they want to communicate Demon Dean as. If it's just not caring anymore, then I suspect that they could take away the lightness and flirtyness of his usual hook-up - i.e. it's all business with little lightness. If they want to show that Dean isn't getting what he needs anymore from the liaisons and that this frustrates and angers him, then I could see @Aeryn13's scenario with Dean lashing out and being a little nasty afterwards.

 

If they go for rape or something like that, I`d consider it nothing but character bashing when of course for Soulless Sam they not only had to give him the ultimate white-wash but also took care to present it as "oh, look at the stud, isn`t he great?" I hate their versus writing with Dean always being on the losing end as it is,

 

I didn't see much whitewash for Soulless Sam. They were very clear that he slept with married women and was rather careless about it - in other words he wouldn't have cared if the husband found out. I wouldn't call that showing him as "isn't he great" at all, but "what a jerk," especially since it was coupled with Soulless Sam using the other husband as bait - with the large probability that he'd be killed or become a monster (which both happened). Even with the prostitute... And I interpret that scene differently with Sam's second offering of money being a tip, because I would suspect that escort would get paid up front for the main business (this was a high-priced escort) and all her "oh I almost forgot" banter to be trying to "butter" Soulless Sam up (i.e. an act) - like Jane Fonda's character when she was playing a hooker moaning loudly but actually looking at her watch - for repeat business along with talking about how all mysterious he was, but Soulless Sam just creepily stared at her and couldn't have cared less. So then she offered "call me on my day off" (yeah right, like Sam would know her day off - she would totally have asked for money) to save face, because she was obviously making little impression with her fake fawning, and creepy Soulless Sam just threw her number in the trash, because either he saw through her act or didn't care about her "praise." My impression was "wow, what a jerk. Who is that?" rather than "what a stud." Even though the visuals were quite nice in my opinion, I found the behavior entirely creepy, somewhat misogynistic*, and bordering on psychotic with the staring and lack of response/regard. He was simultaneously "look at me, look at me, and give me compliments" and "your compliments are pathetic and my due." Total dick**. He gave me the creeps... and if I were the escort, I would've run for the hills as soon as I got out of there, feeling lucky I was still alive. (I personally thought Jared played Soulless Sam very well.)

 

Compared to Vampire Dean - which I thought entirely portrayed Dean on the winning end of a whitewash, because he couldn't have come out looking better (except for the lack of judgement part by visiting Lisa in the first place) - I thought they portrayed Soulless Sam pretty brutally, myself. I thought Soulless Sam was awesome in his own way, but awesome in the Hannibal Lector kind of way in that he's a complete psycho, totally awful, and okay kind of funny, but if I were Dean I would totally want to stab him in his sleep, because holy shit guy's gotta go. I was ready to have real Sam back by the time he came. And I suspect they'll likely do a similar kind of thing with Demon Dean.

 

* And I generally don't take offense in that regard, so that stood out for me.

** Or as Gabriel would put it: a huge bag of dicks.

 

It's one thing for Soulless Sam to pay for hookers, or sleep with someone whilst on  a case, which by the way he did even as Regular!Sam in Sex and Violence, or to beat a cop because he thinks the cop is going to compromise a mission or even try to kill Bobby who Soulless Sam perceived to be a threat, but Soulless Sam never sexually assaulted anyone or coerced anyone into sex, not that I can remember.

 

 

I saw Sam's casual sex in "Sex and Violence" and his disregard that it could be dangerous as a sign that "Something's wrong with Sam" and coupled with Sam's bashing of Dean was, in my opinion, entirely part of destroying Sam's character as we knew him in season 4. I hated that episode with a passion.

 

And for Soulless Sam, he didn't just beat up a cop on that case. He used an innocent guy as monster bait without a second thought and then carelessly shot all the rest of the victims without making sure that was the foolproof way to kill the monster. Soulless Sam also killed a bartender being used as a shield without a second thought. I got the impression from all of that that we only got a small taste of the horrors that Soulless Sam perpetrated. Even though we didn't see it, I could have easily imagined coercion - at the least - for Soulless Sam. For me, the only thing that might have stopped him in that regard might have been his ego. It wouldn't have been because he actually would've given a crap about the women, because Soulless Sam wasn't really capable of that. They didn't have to show it for me to get the picture - they showed pretty well what Soulless Sam was with the picture that they did give.

 

Where am I going with all of this? (I promise there's a point)...

 

I don't think they'll go too far with Dean, but if they do, just because it's Dean's mind and thoughts, his soul is twisted. In some ways this is worse than Soulless Sam who was just lacking a soul and restraint. Dean actually has the added detriment of a broken, twisted soul influencing him - a condition Dean entirely didn't want and made clear that he didn't want -  so I, for one, will be entirely sympathetic. Just as Sam didn't ask to be soulless, Dean specifically asked not to become a demon. It's not his fault that no one listened to him, and instead thought that him being a demon would be a good idea - which really Crowley? You forgot your own advice to not underestimate the Winchesters. Pretty dumb on your part and you'll be lucky to get out of it alive.

 

I don't care what Carver says: this is not going to be Dean. This is going to be Dean influenced by a twisted, damaged, corrupted soul. Period. No question for me that this is not really Dean.

7kstar

7kstar

I really doubt that Jensen would be okay with rape.  I think he would make calls.

 

So it has to be a fine line, something that he could go along with.  Since he has said that he doesn't believe "I'm proud of us" has been destroyed at least not in the 1st three eps, I think they wouldn't go there.  It would not be kid friendly and they do have a kid base of fans.

 

I know on a soap it was a very popular pairing even though he had raped her.  But even the soap took on a backlash for the pairing.  Much later they actually dealt with it saying that they loved each other in-spite of what happened and they did over come it, and he regretted it.

 

I can see him flirting having heavy sex and then when she asked him to call him, not doing it.  Her promising I'll never do it with him again and giving in once again.  Demon Dean enjoying being in control and not acting like Dean because he always puts the woman's feelings above his own.  Most of the sex stuff that people have gotten upset about, I think it happened because the writers never thought about the consequences of what they were implying.  But this show is weird about sex sometimes.

 

Now if Demon Dean suddenly became bi, that would be something very different than Dean.  Just hoping they don't really go too far, because as we have seen with Sam, once they harm a character, they are terrible at fixing it.  But if they want to make sure the show only goes another season, well they could do something stupid.

catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

Now if Demon Dean suddenly became bi, that would be something very different than Dean.  Just hoping they don't really go too far, because as we have seen with Sam, once they harm a character, they are terrible at fixing it.  But if they want to make sure the show only goes another season, well they could do something stupid.

 

Oh Gods. As much as I would love for the show to explore Dean's possible latent bisexuality, to do so via Demon!Dean is so filled with horrible unfortunate implications I don't want it.  Now, I could see where demon!Dean might sexually harass a man in a way like the demons sexually harass Dean and Sam, but to have Dean have an actual sexual encounter with a man as Demon!Dean would be problematic because it would have the unfortunate implication that bisexuality is an evil thing and ugh...no...just no.  I'm not even sure they could successfully use it to explore that in Dean after the fact either because how can they explain why it took Dean becoming a demon to realize he might like boys and girls?

I think Soulless Sam was let off the hook about everything because "No Soul" = Sam didn't know any better and couldn't have stopped himself.  To me Demon!Dean probably won't get that pass because he knew what he was doing and he didn't care. 

Edited by catrox14
AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

I think Soulless Sam was let off the hook about everything because "No Soul" = Sam didn't know any better and couldn't have stopped himself.  To me Demon!Dean probably won't get that pass because he knew what he was doing and he didn't care.

 

I disagree. Sam was off the hook because Soulless Sam was not entirely Sam and he didn't choose to be that way. But Soulless Sam, I think, did know better - he knew enough to fake it when he had to - he just didn't care, because doing the right thing often hindered his goals. Soulless Sam's faking it showed that he was perfectly capable of stopping himself... he just more than not chose not to stop himself and preferred it that way - as seen in "Clap Your Hands If You Believe."

 

However, I think Dean should also get a pass, because Dean also did not choose to be a demon. Yes, he took the mark not knowing the consequences, but he specifically chose to die rather than become a demon, even if there was the possibility he could end up in hell again because of his deal with Cain - which is pretty self-sacrificing and heroic if you ask me. It looked to me that Crowley took away that choice of Dean's by putting the blade in his hand and thereby completing the process to turn Dean into a demon.

AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

For me, Bobby actually kind of did at least for a little while - showing that Bobby can spread the jerk around to both brothers when he wants to. Bobby actually was skittish around Sam for a while after his souling, didn't trust him, and openly refused to do a case with Sam and Dean because he didn't want to be around Sam because of Soulless Sam trying to kill him. Sam, of course, didn't know what was going on with Bobby at first, because he didn't remember it, but he figured out pretty quickly that Bobby was acting weirdly around him (unlike Bobby with Soulless Sam - "Well, Dean, maybe that's just Sam, now" indeed. Ouch), and it was likely one of the things that clued Sam in to the fact that they weren't telling him everything and one of the reasons why he was hurt/guilty after he got Castiel to spill the truth - because then Sam found out why Bobby was avoiding him and treating him oddly. Dean was very busy trying to get Sam to not scratch the wall for Sam to know how Dean felt otherwise, and then there was the WTF show? season 8 finale confession thing with Dean (if I were Sam, I would've bitch-faced too) which didn't help matters.

 

Unfortunately for Sam by that point in the show, there wasn't anyone else that really mattered that knew much about his being soulless - except maybe Castiel, who ironically caused it - for him to talk to, because Dean was too concerned with the wall problem for Sam to discuss seriously how he was feeling, and Sam doesn't do the stuffing it down thing very well. (Sam really, really needed/needs a friend, in my opinion.)

 

Let's hope the show learned its lesson and doesn't do this bringing stuff up later thing to Dean once he's back to himself, because Dean's already got a major guilt complex as it is. And that the show actually lets Dean have someone to discuss this with - even if it's an outsider - Dean stuffing it deep down works for him better than it does Sam, but apparently - as we saw last season - even that comes back to bite him in the ass eventually, so that needs to change, in my opinion.

SueB

SueB

  • Author

 

I really doubt that Jensen would be okay with rape.  I think he would make calls.

Indeed.  I think both Jensen and Jared have the ability to draw a line now if they choose.  I think they will let the writers do their thing and trust them to craft the story -- even if it's waaaaayyyyy out there.  But if they feel they are doing something OOC, they'd stop it.  Something odd was said at the Nerdist panel -- Mark Sheppard looked at Jensen and asked if "you'd" pay for it (to go to England and do a SuperWhoLock crossover).  I know they are NOT producers so I don't think he has a financial vote on the show (except an obligation as a director to come in under budget).  But there was also a moment where one of the writers (sorry, can't remember who) implied Jensen (and presumably Jared) was "their boss".  Add this to the bit where Jensen called Bob Singer about adjusting a key speech and Singer was "do it" without hesitation.  I just think Jared and Jensen wield a lot of creative power IF they choose to exercise it. 

 

So... the key is whether or not Jensen would say that rape is OOC even for Demon!Dean.  My suspicion is yes.  There's nothing carefree about rape. And he certainly doesn't need to force the issue with most women.  I doubt Dean would set his mind on someone not interested. It just wouldn't be worth his time.  It doesn't develop the story any -- it's just shock-value awful and really debatable in terms of action for the demonic version of the character. So, I just don't see it happening. 

7kstar

7kstar

(edited)

Both actors could walk as their contracts end this season and Jensen has made it clear as long as he is excited about the stories...I just don't see him being excited about rape and hopefully the writers are smarter than that. 

 

Jensen had a little control in Season 5 because Krikpe asked him about getting rid of the necklace so I would say this shows that they run the big stuff by the actors because really unhappy actors will kill a show.  Also every interview I've seen, all have been so much upbeat about this, giddy almost unless Jensen was really tired after directing.  So for right now I'll trust them to know which pitfall to avoid.  The ones they have done that have been a bit tasteless has always been more a one up-man-ship.

 

Almost we got away with that in that show let's see if we can push the bar a little bit more.  They have always been protective of keeping Dean the hero.  John not so much but they have to have a way to get back to that.  Season 9 was the one where they could have gone too far and instead they seem to attack Sam instead to keep the spin of Dean's a hero but he is a bit out of control. 

 

I think that Demon Dean will be let's see what Dean would look like if he ever let his killer instinct loose and the demon's that tortured him in hell should be very scared.  I think even Crowley should be a bit scared. 

 

I also agree that Crowley took Dean's control of death out of his hands by putting the blade in his hand.  Now my question is, where on earth is that darn blade?

Edited by 7kstar
catrox14

catrox14

I had forgotten that Bobby skittish of Sam and as it happens that episode was on TNT this week and my DVR caught. it. So I watched it again last night. 

 

Bobby had no problem forgiving Sam for beating the shit out of Dean when he was hopped up on demon blood and then Bobby shamed Dean for wanting to let Sam go off on his own after that beating  But boy, you're right that Bobby was really leery of Soulless Sam after he experienced Soulless Sam threats.  Bobby is kind of a hypocrite isn't he? 

AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

(edited)

I'm assuming you meant that Bobby was leery of Souled Sam afterwards, and yes he really was. I remembered it well, because I remember feeling bad for Sam, who didn't even know what had happened and was just happy to be back. And here's his substitutte father figure giving him the side-eye like Sam's going to go homicidal at any minute - when he had no idea what he did and he didn't even choose to be soulless in the first place. And yet, as you said, Bobby sent Dean back to a demon blood-roided up Sam and didn't worry about the implications, so yes Bobby is a bit of a hypocrite (his not taking his being stuck in a wheelchair well was another example).

 

But that doesn't bother me too greatly - he's human, and I prefer my characters flawed. If Bobby didn't have flaws like that, he'd be too Mary Sue.

 

This is why I'm not going to wring my hands too much about Demon Dean. As far as I'm concerned, it wasn't Dean's choice, and as long as he doesn't get all high and mighty on Sam later on for his screw up in whatever Sam does bad to find Dean *... Though then again... that would be a different flaw for Dean - sort of - and might be a nice break from his self-esteem issues and maybe we can feel some sympathy for Sam for once (pfft yeah right, like the show is going to allow that.... they'll have Sam do something awful or blame Dean for being a demon or something, because that seems to be how they roll recently... but hope springs eternal...)

 

Okay shutting up now, since I seem to have lost my point...

 

Oh yeah, it was that I'm not going to worry too much about demon Dean... nor believe Carver when he makes it sound like what Dean's going to do as a demon is something Dean has "control" over and is regular Dean's fault. I mostly hope this because if Carver does do that, him having Sam do something totally horrendous to compensate will likely follow - and I'll hate that with a passion. It's time Sam got to be himself (and by that I mean season 6.5 - 7 Sam) again. Please?

 

* sigh, but I guess Sam doesn't want to make the not looking for Dean mistake again and goes overboard in the other direction. Sam can be a kind of an overbalancer, though, so that's consistent at least.

Edited by AwesomO4000
Aeryn13

Aeryn13

 

in a way, yes., so Demon!Dean can get the same whitewash Soulless Sam got, which is not a lot.

 

If I was assured that Demon!Dean would get the exact same amount of whitewash Sam has gotten in the entirety of the show, demon blood, soullessness and all tha, I`d be perfectly happy. Because then all the responsibility would get pawned off on Sam for being the sole disturbing factor in the relationship. Granted, that would be deeply slanted and biased writing, I acknolwledge that but if for once, Dean profits from it? No complains.

catrox14

catrox14

I think both brothers have had their share of slanted writing and character arcs wherein one brother is shown more favorably than the other and vice versa. Both have dirty hands if we get down to brass tacks. It's just a matter of what made the hands dirty and if those hands can ever be made clean or at least less dirty.

 

Thinking more about the "whitewash" matter. Maybe I'm not understanding what whitewashing really means, but if it's a matter of the character being forgiven by  the audience and/or other characters within the show eiher short term or long term, I would say that both brothers have benefited from that kind of forgiveness at varying times.

 

I think the only dividing line is that Sam didn't look for Dean in s8 which apparently is being made up for in s10. And for me, turning Dean into a demon is pretty much the literal worst thing that can happen to a character in this show becomes it has condemned their soul to being evil.  But like I said maybe I don't entirely understand the concept of "whitewash".

Aeryn13

Aeryn13

 

Thinking more about the "whitewash" matter. Maybe I'm not understanding what whitewashing really means, but if it's a matter of the character being forgiven by  the audience and/or other characters within the show eiher short term or long term,

 

For me it means ready-made excuses that absolves the character of all blame and/or the past misdeeds retconned to retroactively pin the blame on someone or something else. Redemption is fine, As is forgiveness. Or growing from mistakes. Giving sympathetic reasons for why they did it or show a character`s POV, all not whitewash for me.

 

For example, I felt that in Season 4 Sam`s pride got adressed as a character flaw. He went wrong with it, not everyone else in not bowing down to him. The journey of Season 5 on the other hand showed him as actually "the one and only hero" and everyone learned to bow down and accept their little helper roles. My conclusion? He didn`t have a character flaw in the first place (how can you be prideful if the sun really does shine out of your ass?) and everyone else`s, mainly Dean`s behaviour, had been the actual problem. Retroactively, THEY were wrong, not Sam who got the big hero story as a reward. And by "reward", I don`t mind not having personal suffering or anything, I mean the reward of the story. Not to mention "it wasn`t him, it was the demon-blood". That is white-wash to me.  

 

I can`t recall an example of Dean having that over the course of the show. Maybe when he was possessed by that creature that made him kill the Campbell girl, Gwen. He couldn`t be held accountable for it.

 

The way Carver spoke with the "all Dean, all in control" seems like he rather gleefully sees the character as real Dean, regardless of the demonization. I`m not sure how that tracks because the point of Demon!Dean is that he isn`t normal!Dean, otherwise he wouldn`t be a demon. But it sounds as if no supernatural leniency is to be granted.  

catrox14

catrox14

The way Carver spoke with the "all Dean, all in control" seems like he rather gleefully sees the character as real Dean, regardless of the demonization. I`m not sure how that tracks because the point of Demon!Dean is that he isn`t normal!Dean, otherwise he wouldn`t be a demon. But it sounds as if no supernatural leniency is to be granted.  

Yeah, I'm not sure what to make of Carver's remarks about Dean. Of course, I've long posited that I think Carver thinks Dean is actually a dick and a jerk and that this would be real Dean if Carver had his way. I don't think being evil is a true Dean Winchester character trait. :(

shang yiet

shang yiet

Oh, don't worry, Sam is the real monster according to Carver so Demon!Dean will look like a boy scout in comparison. The worst he will do is kill other demons, sleep around and be misogynist. He'll still have the high moral ground.  He won't be blamed for turning into a demon because it's all Sam's fault for hurting his feelings and anyway, it wasn't him, it was the Mark of Cain. 

 

I must have missed the season when it was made clear the sun shone out of Sam's ass or that the whole apocalypse was Dean's fault.

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AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

For example, I felt that in Season 4 Sam`s pride got adressed as a character flaw. He went wrong with it, not everyone else in not bowing down to him. The journey of Season 5 on the other hand showed him as actually "the one and only hero" and everyone learned to bow down and accept their little helper roles.

 

My conclusion? He didn`t have a character flaw in the first place (how can you be prideful if the sun really does shine out of your ass?) and everyone else`s, mainly Dean`s behaviour, had been the actual problem. Retroactively, THEY were wrong, not Sam who got the big hero story as a reward. And by "reward", I don`t mind not having personal suffering or anything, I mean the reward of the story. Not to mention "it wasn`t him, it was the demon-blood". That is white-wash to me.

 

I can`t recall an example of Dean having that over the course of the show.

 

I took my response to the all seasons thread so as not to go too off topic. I'll write more here later on how I think this will affect the coming season.

catrox14

catrox14

I don't agree that Dean becoming a demon will be blamed on Sam.

 

I always thought Dean taking on the MoC was the 'punishment' for letting an angel possess Sam without Sam's knowledge which resulted in Kevin's murder. Then Crowley took advantage of Dean's self-recriminations and turned him into a demon.  So for me I don't think Sam is going to be blamed at all for Dean becoming a demon, nor do I think he should be. I think he will be questioned as to his apparently questionable tactics in trying to find Dean.

SueB

SueB

  • Author

 

I always thought Dean taking on the MoC was the 'punishment' for letting an angel possess Sam without Sam's knowledge which resulted in Kevin's murder.

I would categorize it as "grief driven folly" rather than punishment.  He did it. He KNOWS he did it.  Sure Crowley tricked him but if he KNEW Crowley was manipulating him when he was at the house with Cain -- because the flashback showed Crowley smiling behind the "shaking" tea cup.  Cain called it "Impulsive but brave."  That's our Dean.  It has paid off for him on SO many occasions but that's when he had a reliable partner (Sam).  Not his King of Hell bestie.  I still love that moment BTW -- Crowley describing them as "besties" and Dean saying "NOT HELPING."  Hee. 

 

Other indicators that they will be holding Dean (vice Sam) responsible for Dean's demon state:

- Carver said Dean made a "choice" to face Metatron alone. By punching out Sam he broke the rule of them being better as a team.  I was surprised by that because frankly, with Metatron (like Abaddon), Sam would have been so easy to take hostage.  But Carver made a point that Dean's culpable for chosing to act in a solitary fashion. 

- They are given Sam a dark arc too -- with whatever it is he does in the first couple of episodes.  If they were going to be bashing Sam for Dean's demonocity (I just made that word up .. I like it but my apologies to the English language), I think they wouldn't need to heap on questionable acts. Further, they are once again separating Cas from Sam (and Dean).  Which means Sam has no-one to pull him back if he goes too far.

 

I'd LIKE to be mad that Cas and Sam didn't notice Dean racing headlong into disaster at the end of S9 but I can't.  The distance last season, while supported with plot, was still pretty transparently designed to isolate Dean.  So...I'm having a hard time blaming the characters. Plus they gave us enough to let Sam and Cas get a bit of a pass.  Specifically, Cas IMMEDIATELY noticed there was something wrong with Dean and called him on it.  But then he was swept up in the Angel story. Sam was pretty fried by Dean's choice with Gadreel but he still showed concern and Dean was hiding shit.   So... between the spoilers and the way they drove Dean's isolation w/ plot, I'll be surprised if anyone (but perhaps Demon!Dean and Crowley twisting the knife) crabs at them about not being there for him.

 

Ah Crowley ... so we have he's in over his head and calls for help.  I'm convinced he calls Moose.  He's got enough time observing the Winchesters in their natural habitat. That's the smart move.  Perhaps this is how Sam finally catches up w/ Dean.  But what IS Crowley going to do if he hand Dean back to Sam?  They've made him a regular.  I don't think it's just so they can guarantee Mark Sheppard's availability.  What will be his arc if the bros are riding down the highway again after the first few episodes?  

catrox14

catrox14

 

- Carver said Dean made a "choice" to face Metatron alone. By punching out Sam he broke the rule of them being better as a team.  I was surprised by that because frankly, with Metatron (like Abaddon), Sam would have been so easy to take hostage.  But Carver made a point that Dean's culpable for chosing to act in a solitary fashion.

- They are given Sam a dark arc too -- with whatever it is he does in the first couple of episodes.  If they were going to be bashing Sam for Dean's demonocity (I just made that word up .. I like it but my apologies to the English language), I think they wouldn't need to heap on questionable acts. Further, they are once again separating Cas from Sam (and Dean).  Which means Sam has no-one to pull him back if he goes too far.

 

JEEBUS CARVER, make up your godsdamn mind! He's giving me whiplash with how he views the brothers relationship. He's been saying that the brothers are codependent etc. 

 

But Carver is now saying that Dean should not have gone on his own, despite making it so that Dean really had no other option and his punishment for finally accepting that Sam wanted the distance and to keep Sam out of harm's way in the fight against Metatron is to be turned into a fucking demon?  WTF is Carver smoking? Seriously. 

oliverwendell

oliverwendell

(edited)

Crowley's arc?  I wonder if it has anything to do with this Scottish witch they've just cast?  A descendant of Crowley's, perhaps, or even someone he knew when he was human?  Also, if the Mark of Cain is sticking around (as it seems it is), he's tied to that.

 

I agree with SueB that Sam won't be blamed for Dean's becoming a demon.  During Comic Con Carver kept talking about how the boys are on the same page now, and not fighting each other or blaming one another for shit or hiding shit from one another -- this being after Dean gets un-demonated, I mean.  (Yes, I made up that word, too.  But I like it!) 

 

Plus they seem very much to want to redeem Sam's failure to look for Dean in Purgatory by having him really look for him now -- to the point that he compromises his morals in the process.  Blaming him for Dean's demonation would undermine that effort, I think.

Edited by fourteenwords
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7kstar

7kstar

They better fix the car when Dean is back to being human.  I can understand your weeping but so far everytime they've harmed Baby, she's been rebuilt better than ever...Dean will take care of it the question is when???

 

I saw Dean taking the mark because he was punishing himself, he felt the weight of the world on him and was basically it's the only way I can fix this mess, what I did to Sam and mostly to fix Kevin getting killed.

 

Also Dean felt it wasn't his brother's fight, his words, so he falls back to old patterns of protecting brother and the end result his death...he just didn't know Crowley's plan.

 

So if anyone will be blame...It's CROWLEY's fault...all of it.  Sam you need to kill him or at  least attempt to and only a very GOOD reason should stop it.  But just because they made Crowley a regular doesn't mean he can't be gotten rid of it just gives him a bit more rights than a guest star.  But the history of this show unless you are a brother be very scared, because they haven't brought Jim back that often and I know they like him as an actor, but there isn't a good reason to bring him back, yet.

 

Evil I know.  :)

 

 

AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

@SueB - Carver said Dean made a "choice" to face Metatron alone. By punching out Sam he broke the rule of them being better as a team.  I was surprised by that because frankly, with Metatron (like Abaddon), Sam would have been so easy to take hostage.  But Carver made a point that Dean's culpable for chosing to act in a solitary fashion.

 

Oh wow. Interesting. I never would have thought of that, because as you said, it made logical sense for Dean to go alone. Also weird, because didn't Dean say he would rather die than be a demon after that? So if not for Crowley and potentially Sam calling Crowley - and that is mostly where I was worried that Sam might've been blamed some: if Sam's calling Crowley to come fix things with Dean was how Crowley ended up there - Dean maybe just would've died. Sure it might've been more his fault he was killed, but unless just the mark would make him a demon, Dean's choice to go alone to get Metatron was not what made him a demon... it would've just made him dead. So now I'm confused.

 

@SueB - I'm convinced he calls Moose.  He's got enough time observing the Winchesters in their natural habitat. That's the smart move.  Perhaps this is how Sam finally catches up w/ Dean.  But what IS Crowley going to do if he hand Dean back to Sam?

 

@7kstar - Sam you need to kill him [Crowley] or at  least attempt to and only a very GOOD reason should stop it.

 

I wonder if these two might be related. If Crowley is smart... and he is... he will make it somehow seem like he is helping Sam more than vica versa. Sam doesn't know exactly what happened, so Crowley can make it seem like he's helping Sam find Dean and in return he might somehow get Sam to agree to not kill him. Because I agree @7kstar, Crowley might have some weird something concerning Sam, but Sam hates Crowley, and he's been wanting to kill him for a long long time (since season 5 actually). Crowley killing Sarah was just the icing on the Sam hate on for Crowley cupcake. So as you said, Sam would have to have a really good reason not to kill Crowley... having Sam promisie not to kill him if Crowley "helps" him with Dean might be just the leverage Crowley needs, and the main reason I can think of that Sam wouldn't kill him. Even worse if Sam has to make an actual deal for it... and wouldn't Crowley love that: he'd get to seal the deal with Moose... but instead of Sam's soul, the payment would be Crowley getting off-the-hook/no kill benefits and if Sam breaks the terms, he ends up in hell.

 

If the above happens: Oh man that would be just the worst for Sam. He would want to kill Crowley so badly - especially when he finds out Crowley's role in Dean becoming a demon - and he wouldn't be able to, because "gotcha!" deal in place. (If Sam becomes desperate or pissed off enough later I can almost imagine he might just say "oh f&^% it" and do it anyway. He better be blood-roided up then and take over hell.)

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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

Also Dean felt it wasn't his brother's fight, his words, so he falls back to old patterns of protecting brother and the end result his death...he just didn't know Crowley's plan.

 

I still am not sure that Crowley made it happen--I think he let it happen. And I don't think Crowley actively turned Dean into a demon as much as the Mark did...but those are just semantics right now.

 

Anyway, I'm beginning to think that maybe Crowley's plan was to make his own Knights of Hell. He gets Cain to give and Dean to accept the Mark Of Cain, then waits and watches to see if that old wives' tale about Cain was true and if/when Dean becomes a demon he thinks he can control Dean and get him to make some Knights like Cain did. Food for thought, folks. ;)

SueB

SueB

  • Author

I think the Mark kept Dean alive.  Perhaps the Blade was a little "go juice" in his hand, but I think if Sam had tried to cremate Dean he wouldn't have burned up.  Okay, gross...but I think he was "dormant", not dead.  Being burned would have probably got him going too I suspect.

 

I think Crowley certainly manipulated Dean to kill Abaddon.  Getting him to be a Demon might have been part fantasy, part plan.  Even if Dean just died from the MoC that' would have been okay I suspect for Crowley.  Except he would miss him and if Dean did go to Hell (perhaps taking on the MoC tarnished him or something), Crowley would definitely have a new playtoy.  So... win win. 

 

I completely forgot about the witch.  Yeah, Crowley's got a plot to keep him busy.  Now I hope they integrate Cas back into the bro's story. 

7kstar

7kstar

I still am not sure that Crowley made it happen--I think he let it happen. And I don't think Crowley actively turned Dean into a demon as much as the Mark did...but those are just semantics right now.

 

Anyway, I'm beginning to think that maybe Crowley's plan was to make his own Knights of Hell. He gets Cain to give and Dean to accept the Mark Of Cain, then waits and watches to see if that old wives' tale about Cain was true and if/when Dean becomes a demon he thinks he can control Dean and get him to make some Knights like Cain did. Food for thought, folks. ;)

I guess the reason I used those words although I can agree with you, Is the ep...I forget the name where Crowley tests Dean.  He gives Dean a chance to allow someone to kill Crowley and when Dean saves the man, although we later find out he is really a demon, Crowley thinks that proves Dean is loyal to him.  Really Dean was trying to save the man and he still needed Crowley alive. 

 

I do believe Crowley hoped he could have Dean as a friend to go play with, at least until he got bored, being alone isn't always that fun even if you are doing all the things you enjoy.  It is much more fun to share those things with someone and if Dean became his knight, he could mentor Dean and show him all kinds of new things.  JMV but I don't think I'm really that far from yours either.

 

I think the Mark kept Dean alive.  (snip)

 

I think Crowley certainly manipulated Dean to kill Abaddon.  Getting him to be a Demon might have been part fantasy, part plan.  Even if Dean just died from the MoC that' would have been okay I suspect for Crowley.  Except he would miss him and if Dean did go to Hell (perhaps taking on the MoC tarnished him or something), Crowley would definitely have a new playtoy.  So... win win. 

 

I completely forgot about the witch.  Yeah, Crowley's got a plot to keep him busy.  Now I hope they integrate Cas back into the bro's story. 

I think to a degree Crowley is bored and if you can't beat the Winchesters because it's hazard to your lifeline, then getting them to join you is the next best thing.  Having control of Dean also gives Crowley an edge to keep Sam from killing him.  Crowley is very much attached to his head. 

 

Cas is more interesting when he is with the boys  and I would love to see Cas and Crowley having a bit of a showdown.  It might be funny in a twisted way to see both of them fighting over Dean. 

Aeryn13

Aeryn13

I`ve read that Becky is gonna be the one producing the play on the Winchester`s life in that "funny" meta episode that is supposed to be a "love letter to fans". Considering what kind of fan Becky is, which fans will that letter be adressed to?

 

And I can already see what the play is gonna be like then. Maybe she self-inserted again to kneel adoringly before Sam on stage? I assume Dean is a tree or something for all she cares about the character.. 

catrox14

catrox14

I'm hopeful that Becky will have learned her lesson from her terrible treatment of Sam. I would be very surprised if Carver and Co. resorted to outright mocking their audience that has gotten them to 10 seasons.  I think it will be gentle teasing with love like they did with the Real Ghostbusters.. at least I hope so.  

 

I really wish we could get Edlund back in the mix because he seemed to know how to mix the mocking with love and the funny with the sad.

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Mcolleague

Mcolleague

I cringed when I first saw the news of Becky's return too, but now I kinda think it might be a good thing they are bringing her back. At least the fan avatar's last appearance won't be to kidnap and roofie somebody. Fingers crossed that they redeem her and fix the travesty of the wedding episode. Since it's a Becky episode, there will probably be a good amount of Sam!pimpage though. /eyeroll

 

I have to say that while I love Ben Edlund's wacky creative genius as a storyteller, he has messed up just as badly with consent issues. Wishful Thinking had the dude who mind controlled a woman into sleeping with him, and portrayed it as if it was some tragic thing when he gave her up. So creepy. 

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ohjoy
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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