Spoilers With Speculation

[Diane]

https://twitter.com/correagabe/status/716055899895279616

 

[Demented Daisy]

Well, isn't that interesting....

[DittyDotDot]

Ewww...it's not so marvy Marv! Quick someone pull out an angel blade! ;)

 

I just love how these guys who have only done a few episodes come together and hang out on set. Pretty cool!

[catrox14]

Ugh. Fucking Metatron.  Welp I knew that that dirtbag would show up again.  Sigh. 

Ewww...it's not so marvy Marv! Quick someone pull out an angel blade! ;)

 

I just love how these guys who have only done a few episodes come together and hang out on set. Pretty cool!

[ahrtee]

I still wonder if killing Death was an integral part of releasing the Darkness. I look at it like how Sam had to kill Lilith to release Lucifer back in S4. Lilith had to push Sam to do it in the end by taunting him. What better way for Death to get Dean to kill him than to tell him he had to kill Sam. Sure, Death said the Mark was the lock and key, but perhaps he omitted a piece of the puzzle to ensure Dean would kill him? It could explain Death's interest in Dean over the years and certainly would make Death handing Dean that scythe and his insistence that Sam had to die (and by Dean's hand, no less) make more sense.

But that would mean that someone *wanted* the Darkness released, and Death was working with  him/her.  So who would that be?  And why?  Or do you just think Death was trying to start another form of the Apocalypse (that is, wipe out all humanity) and therefore reap all souls?  

 

One last thought...back in 5.21, Death said that eventually he would reap God, which to me implies that he would be the last thing standing after all else, which would imply (to me, at least) that he can't be killed.  Of course, that was many, many writers ago.

 

But I agree with everyone who thinks that wasn't really Death (or at least, not the real Death) who was killed, and I wonder/am hoping that that will come into play soon.  Maybe Death facing God to explain whatthehell happened?  Or the two of them together facing the Winchesters?  

[DittyDotDot]

You know, all this talk about whether Chuck is God or not has reminded me of some of the spec at the end of S5 that Chuck was Metatron--a prophet who, in some scriptures, was raised to Heaven and transformed into an angel when his work for God was done. Of course the show created a different Metatron, so I hadn't really thought about it much until this debate started brewing again. Anyway, I was just thinking it would be funny if Chuck is Metatron, or was possessed by Metatron at the end of Swan Song and not so marvy Marv is just a wannabe impostor. I doubt that's what the show will do, but it would crack me the hell up. ;)

 

But that would mean that someone *wanted* the Darkness released, and Death was working with  him/her.  So who would that be?  And why?  Or do you just think Death was trying to start another form of the Apocalypse (that is, wipe out all humanity) and therefore reap all souls?  

 

One last thought...back in 5.21, Death said that eventually he would reap God, which to me implies that he would be the last thing standing after all else, which would imply (to me, at least) that he can't be killed.  Of course, that was many, many writers ago.

 

But I agree with everyone who thinks that wasn't really Death (or at least, not the real Death) who was killed, and I wonder/am hoping that that will come into play soon.  Maybe Death facing God to explain whatthehell happened?  Or the two of them together facing the Winchesters?  

 

TBH, I think it was Death. Nothing about the character made me think it wasn't actually death, it's just his story made me think he wasn't telling the whole story. But I never thought it wasn't Death. Plus, with Billie the reaper on her little vengeance tour makes me think it was actually Death and that he is indeed dead. However, it wouldn't be the first time the show didn't make sense, so, ya never know. 

 

I really don't know if Death was trying to get Dean to kill him, but it makes more sense to me that he was. There could be a lot of reasons Death wanted the Darkness released. Perhaps Death is part of God's family--it wouldn't be the first time this show pulled a half-brother out of their asses--and was pissed God locked up Amara? Perhaps he was tired of this little planet and the annoying little human protozoa who populate it and wanted it destroyed? Perhaps God always intended to release Amara and Death was a part of that plan? I really don't know.

Edited April 20, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

Death was killed by his supposed own scythe but it was vastly different from his scythe in Two Minutes to Midnight.  Could Death have more than one scythe?  Any stupid thing is possible with LOL Canon Carver, but IMO no. There should be ONE and ONLY ONE way to kill Death and that is with ONE and ONLY ONE scythe which we saw in 5.21. Not copies or different iterations of his scythe. So then why have a different style of scythe that is almost as tall as Death? Answer: Plot contrivance so Dean could swing it around and kill Death from 2 feet away.   

 

Death can stop time. The instant he saw that blade come even from a distance he could have stopped time and taken the scythe from Dean or he could have  sent Dean to outer space and killed Sam himself..in a literal instant yet he did not.

 

Surely Death would know better than to hand over his scythe to Dean knowing Dean. He had to know there was a chance he wouldn't kill Sam and risk his own death.  So why make Death stupid here?  Answer: To remove Death to keep him from sending Dean into outer space

 

I think it was another test IMO.  Dean letting himself be taken away from the rest of humanity was a righteous act.  Dean killing Sam was not IMO.  It wasn't well justified by Death.  If Death wanted Sam dead, he could do that in a minute.  It was about putting the scythe in Dean's hand and making him choose.

Again, I think Dean choose wisely. Sam and Dean are NOT inherently evil nor are they trying to damage the world (okay, yes, they make mistakes that make messes they have to clear up but that's not intent to harm).  I think Death put that Scythe into Dean's hand to see how far gone he was or if he could still make the correct moral judgement.

 

I'm not sure that Death was certain Dean was going to swing all the way around and stick him.  But I don't think Death is dead.  Like, not at all.  He's gone somewhere but Dean didn't really "kill" Death.  I think Death is "in" on whatever long-term plan God has.

 

ETA:  Oh yeah, Marvatron.  Well, I think that's part of the cleanup God is coming to do by engaging directly in the Amara issue. I expect it to go poorly for Metatron.  Then again, maybe God sent the hemorrhoids. 

Edited April 20, 2016 by SueB

[Omegamom]

There's Chuck Shurley the prophet in multiple episodes, and there's God manifesting himself as Chuck Shurley in Swan Song. Doesn't mean that it was Chuck Shurley we actually saw in Swan Song, just God being a joker dressed as Chuck. As DittyDotDot (?) says up above, God can appear as a kumquat if he wants to. Maybe he just borrowed Chuck's body for that small slice of time. Maybe it was a copy, and the real Chuck was off happily getting drunk and calling up Mistress Magda.

[Myrelle]

If Chuck is God and has been him since at least Swan Song, it just makes him look horrible and hypocritical IMO.

 

Going back to the dialogue from Swan Song:

CHUCK (VOICEOVER):" So, what's it all add up to? It's hard to say. But me, I'd say this was a test... for Sam and Dean. And I think they did all right. [Flashbacks play.] Up against good, evil, angels, devils, destiny, and God himself, they made their own choice."

"They chose family. And, well... isn't that kinda the whole point?"

So if he is God he just said they were up against not just him but everything else as some sort of warped test they A) didn't know they were taking and B) didn't have the text book to study for.

So the whole point was choosing family? head desk Amara, Lucifer, Michael, Gabriel, Raphael? Bueller anyone?

Edited for punctuation and clarity

Edited a second time to add: So if he was God he was perfectly happy with the collateral damage his test cost and He didn't interfere then. I'd say the apocalypse caused more deaths and destruction than Amara has.

 

I hope that if the SPN God brings up the idea of "testing" his creation as a reason for what's happened to and with the Winchesters, that Dean will take a good, hard swing at him-especially if it does turn out that he locked his sister away, alone, simply in order to make a more "perfect" creation of his own. He'll deserve to be clocked, IMO. I don't  see them making the SPN God a villain, but no better or worse than The Darkness? Sure. It's what this show has been predicated on, IMO. The idea that Dark beings can be just as noble and honorable and deserving of life as those who claim to be of the Light. I think that what God did to his sister was wrong, especially if choosing family IS truly "the whole point". And I'd love to see Dean school God on that thought by refusing to betray Amara again if that is a part of His new plan and especially if God's Chosen One turns out to be Sam(which I'm sure it will be-the set-up has been there for Dean to be The Chosen One of the Darkness(Amara) and Sam to be the Chosen one of the Light(God) from the beginning of the season), and as such the only one who can wield the god weapon that will destroy her, but that will likely take him also(as per The Vessel). A better ending to me, would be for a very IC, wild card Dean to find another way to lock the Darkness away again-and one that doesn't include Sam having to sacrifice himself this time. Now that I think about it, Dean offering to sacrifice himself, to "become one" with her or go with her if she will agree to leave humanity alone would fit into this storyline perfectly if it IS a reversal of the S5 finale instead of simplya complete redux. And Humanity, as represented by the most human of characters on this show, would get the BDH moment this time around. And he would save his brother and the world in that way also. I should probably post this in the Supernatural Wish List thread, though, because that's likely all that it is.

[catrox14]

 

But that would mean that someone *wanted* the Darkness released, and Death was working with  him/her.  So who would that be?  And why?  Or do you just think Death was trying to start another form of the Apocalypse (that is, wipe out all humanity) and therefore reap all souls?  

 

One last thought...back in 5.21, Death said that eventually he would reap God, which to me implies that he would be the last thing standing after all else, which would imply (to me, at least) that he can't be killed.  Of course, that was many, many writers ago.

 

But I agree with everyone who thinks that wasn't really Death (or at least, not the real Death) who was killed, and I wonder/am hoping that that will come into play soon.  Maybe Death facing God to explain whatthehell happened?  Or the two of them together facing the Winchesters?  

 

Who would gain the most from Death's murder? OH MY GODS. How was this NOT a thing? Seriously. We could have had a whole season of Who REALLY was Behind the MURDER of Death!  BUT NOOOOO.  And sheesh Death never even got a damn memorial service!

 

I'm still sticking with Rowena with a side of Crowley and Lucifer. Metatron is my dark horse.

 

Rowena playing all sides just like Crowley.

 

Since Rowena is the only person could read the BotD what if she found a spell that bound her to Death.  She could have used her  eyeball tracker to follow Sam knowing where to direct her energies.  

 

Her spellwork could have been controlling Death and making him hand over his scythe to Dean and not allowing him to stop Dean from killing him. Rowena may have been banking on Dean being so upset that Death was demanding Sam's head that Dean would kill Death. With Death dead, there is no where for Dean to go with the Mark and boom the Mark is removed and the Darkness is freed. 

 

Lucifer:

Why would Lucifer come to Rowena at all in the first place? Why would she matter to him? Other than using her to get out of the Cage. She believes that Lucifer would be grateful to her letting him out of the Cage but he kills her instead and now she's trying to hitch herself to Amara 

 

Why would Rowena do this? Because the BoTD had writings that told her the Darkness would remake the world in a way that Rowena would have been on board with.

[catrox14]

I think it was another test IMO.  Dean letting himself be taken away from the rest of humanity was a righteous act.  Dean killing Sam was not IMO.  It wasn't well justified by Death.  If Death wanted Sam dead, he could do that in a minute.  It was about putting the scythe in Dean's hand and making him choose.

Again, I think Dean choose wisely. Sam and Dean are NOT inherently evil nor are they trying to damage the world (okay, yes, they make mistakes that make messes they have to clear up but that's not intent to harm).  I think Death put that Scythe into Dean's hand to see how far gone he was or if he could still make the correct moral judgement.

 

 

Death's thing is the natural order. He doesn't care about morality AFAIK.  He gave Dean his ring to put Lucifer back in the Cage because Lucifer was using Death to disrupt the natural order.  Death tested Dean in s6 because he needed Dean to pay attention to the soul harvesting in s6 and to teach Dean about the natural order. Where is the threat to the Natural Order that Death would be testing in Dean? I just don't think Death gives a crap about Dean's state of morality even if he likes Dean on some level. Death does not make those judgments.

 

If that test came from God, well God's an even bigger dick than I thought.

 

Because where did the test begin?

 

If it was a test of Dean letting go of Sam, why did God ignore Dean's prayers before Ezekiel answered? 

Does God only answer when his name is invoked?

Why did God never come forth to let Dean know what that Mark did and what it was for and what would happen to Dean see turning into a demon?

[Actualized Peggy]

This question may belong in the all season thread, but I feel it borders on spoilery, so I felt safer asking here :

 

We the fans have some evidence that Chuck is God, or at least we have seen enough to make this a very popular speculation. But do Sam and Dean have any inkling that Chuck was anything more than a “prophet”?

I feel like they have no clue, but my memory of the last few seasons is too fuzzy for me to be certain.

[ahrtee]

AFAIK, no, they don't.  The only time they mentioned Chuck in the last x-number of years was when Kevin became a prophet; as I recall, they asked Cas what that meant for Chuck (since there could be only one prophet at a time), and he said something like, "he must be gone," which indicates that they believed he was "just" a prophet.  

 

Chuck was alone at the end of Swan Song when the spec started; and I don't think he showed up again (or was mentioned, except for that one comment above) till Fan Fiction, after the boys left.  

 

 

[catrox14]

This question may belong in the all season thread, but I feel it borders on spoilery, so I felt safer asking here :

 

We the fans have some evidence that Chuck is God, or at least we have seen enough to make this a very popular speculation. But do Sam and Dean have any inkling that Chuck was anything more than a “prophet”?

I feel like they have no clue, but my memory of the last few seasons is too fuzzy for me to be certain.

 

That's the funny thing about the Chuck is God debate. No one in the show in the show has ever suggested that Chuck is or isn't God. It was never a question posed by anyone IN the show to anyone else IN the show about God's identity being anyone on screen.  Cas wanted to find God, Dean said he would hunt God.

 

This debate literally only exists in fandom because of the scene with Chuck disappearing that some viewers interpret as Chuck being God and others do not.

 

Considering Kripke and Company could have LONG ago set the record straight, unequivocally that Yes Chuck is God ...or No he is not. But they purposefully refused to say it.  It's the longest troll manuever EVER.

[catrox14]

Because I have become obsessed with Dean's wardrobe.  

 

The beautiful coat is back. I love this coat. I'm pretty sure the one and only time we saw this was in Love Hurts wherein he admits that Amara scares him and controls him and that he can't kill her.

 

I love his wide burgundy blue striped tie.  It's one of my favorite ties of his. He last wore this tie and shirt combo in O Brother Where Art Thou wherein Amara kidnapped and kissed him.

 

Not gonna lie I'm a little worried about bringing the coat and tie together here. LOL Yes I am reading into things LOL

 

[catrox14]

So....thinking about Chuck as God.

 

How would Chuck be outed as God?

Does he say he is God? If he says he is why would the boys or Castiel believe him? Why wouldn't Dean want to stab him in his face immediately?

If Metatron says he's God, why should anyone necessarily believe him? Metatron lies

Will the boys demand him to prove he's God? I know I sure would. Yes because oh ME of little faith LOL

 

 

This question may belong in the all season thread, but I feel it borders on spoilery, so I felt safer asking here :

 

We the fans have some evidence that Chuck is God, or at least we have seen enough to make this a very popular speculation. But do Sam and Dean have any inkling that Chuck was anything more than a “prophet”?

I feel like they have no clue, but my memory of the last few seasons is too fuzzy for me to be certain.

[Demented Daisy]

That's the funny thing about the Chuck is God debate. No one in the show in the show has ever suggested that Chuck is or isn't God. It was never a question posed by anyone IN the show to anyone else IN the show about God's identity being anyone on screen.  Cas wanted to find God, Dean said he would hunt God.

 

This debate literally only exists in fandom because of the scene with Chuck disappearing that some viewers interpret as Chuck being God and others do not.

 

That seems an unfair burden to place on the show.  Dean never, last season, said that he was slowly turning into a demon again.  However, people accept that he was based on Jensen's assertion that it was happening and context clues.

 

With Chuck, we have Rob Benedict saying that Chuck is God and various context clues that point to that possibility.

 

Both are open to interpretation, but it seems a bit of a double standard.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Demented Daisy

[MysteryGuest]

I'm not sure that Death wanted Dean to kill him, since I honestly think that Dean had totally bought into the "Sam must die" theory.  I think Dean was fully prepared to do it until Sam pulled out the photographs.  I wish there were more to the story than that, because you'd think killing Death would have more repercussions, but I"m not convinced that there is.  It's too bad, really...he deserved a better send off.

 

As for Chuck, I'm just going to hold out hope that the writers don't go there, and that they're just leading us on a bit because they know the fans want Chuck to be God.  It just doesn't work for me any other way, and it's going to ruin these last few episodes for me.  Not to mention what next season will bring.  

Where did Rob Benedict come out and say he was God?  I never saw that.  I can't imagine they would be happy with him spilling major plot secrets.  In what context did he say it?

[SueB]

So....thinking about Chuck as God.

 

How would Chuck be outed as God?

Does he say he is God? If he says he is why would the boys or Castiel believe him? Why wouldn't Dean want to stab him in his face immediately?

If Metatron says he's God, why should anyone necessarily believe him? Metatron lies

Will the boys demand him to prove he's God? I know I sure would. Yes because oh ME of little faith LOL

 

I'm going to go with "dawning awareness".  Like God starts talking and the boys start to realize he's God.  No spoiler data here, just thinking out loud.  I imagine it'll begin with an apology.

 

 

I'm not sure that Death wanted Dean to kill him, since I honestly think that Dean had totally bought into the "Sam must die" theory.  I think Dean was fully prepared to do it until Sam pulled out the photographs.  I wish there were more to the story than that, because you'd think killing Death would have more repercussions, but I"m not convinced that there is.  It's too bad, really...he deserved a better send off.

 

As for Chuck, I'm just going to hold out hope that the writers don't go there, and that they're just leading us on a bit because they know the fans want Chuck to be God.  It just doesn't work for me any other way, and it's going to ruin these last few episodes for me.  Not to mention what next season will bring.  

Where did Rob Benedict come out and say he was God?  I never saw that.  I can't imagine they would be happy with him spilling major plot secrets.  In what context did he say it?

 

Rob acknowledged it years ago based on what Kripke told him for Swan Song.  Then he acknowledged it again after "Not Bad" in Fan Fiction.  And at DC Con earlier this month, they had somebody (Matt? Misha?  I can't remember) get killed by another "guest" and Rob "resurrect" him.  

[SueB]

Death's thing is the natural order. He doesn't care about morality AFAIK.  He gave Dean his ring to put Lucifer back in the Cage because Lucifer was using Death to disrupt the natural order.  Death tested Dean in s6 because he needed Dean to pay attention to the soul harvesting in s6 and to teach Dean about the natural order. Where is the threat to the Natural Order that Death would be testing in Dean? I just don't think Death gives a crap about Dean's state of morality even if he likes Dean on some level. Death does not make those judgments.

 

If that test came from God, well God's an even bigger dick than I thought.

 

Because where did the test begin?

 

If it was a test of Dean letting go of Sam, why did God ignore Dean's prayers before Ezekiel answered? 

Does God only answer when his name is invoked?

Why did God never come forth to let Dean know what that Mark did and what it was for and what would happen to Dean see turning into a demon?

 

While it's true Death is all about the Natural Order, he's acknowledged that he and God have 'debated' who is older.  Now, as far as I can tell, Amara is and she doesn't know "Death".  So LoL!Canon at work.  

 

But I could see God asking Death to test Dean to see if he was strong enough to withstand Amara.  And Amara doesn't want to just escape, she wants to erase the Natural Order and put her own chaos (the anti-order) in. So yes, just PURE speculation, I could see God trying to resolve his long standing issue with Amara because he saw Dean as "worthy". He didn't have that opportunity when Cain held the Mark because Cain had no chill for centuries and then he lost his chill as soon as Dean kicked over the bees' nest (metaphorically).  But when Dean took on the Mark and was de-demonized, God may have seen it as an opportunity to release Amara knowing she'd be attached to Dean.   And the test was to make sure that despite the twisting of his soul, Dean was still "worthy".  

Edited April 21, 2016 by SueB

[MysteryGuest]

I really don't like the idea that the last 11 years have just been one long test for Sam and Dean.  That will really piss me off.  So God is testing them by fucking with them relentlessly, only to see if they're strong enough for him to fuck with them some more?  I have to say, I really hope that's not what this turns out to be.

[Demented Daisy]

Where did Rob Benedict come out and say he was God?  I never saw that.  I can't imagine they would be happy with him spilling major plot secrets.  In what context did he say it?

 

 

 

 

There are actually a ton of these, but I do't want to post too many at one time.  Rob has talked about Chuck as God many, many times.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Demented Daisy

[SueB]

I really don't like the idea that the last 11 years have just been one long test for Sam and Dean.  That will really piss me off.  So God is testing them by fucking with them relentlessly, only to see if they're strong enough for him to fuck with them some more?  I have to say, I really hope that's not what this turns out to be.

 

Not what I was trying to say.  I'm saying that when the Archangels pushed the Apocalypse forward (and thus the Archangels were the ones who had a Cupid arrange the Winchester/Campell union and put the boys in the cross-hairs), God realized that Sam and Dean were in fact special.  THEY went up against all the odds and won.  So when the opportunity came again to potentially resolve his own long-standing dirty little secret (locking away Amara), he realized he had a pair of champions for humanity who were about to let her loose.  So... in my little PURE SPECULATION theory... I'm saying God tested Dean before Sam released Amara and the Darkness.

So... the boys were first put on the path by the Archangels.  Then Dean chose to take on the Mark and Sam chose to use the Book of the Damned to remove the Mark and unwittingly-ish free the Darkness.  I'm suggesting that God encouraged Death to clue the boys in to the stakes and see if Dean was still in touch with his humanity despite what was  going on.  And Sam, BTW, was also prepared to die for the greater good in that moment.  So... still very good champions for humanity despite everything they had been through.  So... God did NOT organize the circumstances (Dean taking on the Mark, Sam's actions releasing the Darkness) but he didn't step in and stop them either.   He just did (again, in my little theory) a vector check to make sure they were up to the task that he was hoping they'd take on.  Which, of course, they did.  

Edited April 21, 2016 by SueB

[catrox14]

That seems an unfair burden to place on the show.  Dean never, last season, said that he was slowly turning into a demon again.  However, people accept that he was based on Jensen's assertion that it was happening and context clues.

 

With Chuck, we have Rob Benedict saying that Chuck is God and various context clues that point to that possibility.

 

Both are open to interpretation, but it seems a bit of a double standard.

 

Dean, Sam, Cas and Crowley all discussed the certainty that Dean WOULD become a demon again if he died. Other conversations between Sam and Cas implied Dean was getting worse whatever that meant. In Inside Man, Dean's eyes flashed black the implication being that Dean might be on his way back to demonness. There was enough textual evidence presented on screen to support a reveal of demon!Dean regardless of Jensen saying he was playing it that way or not. Jensen could say he wasn't playing it as Dean reverting and the text would still strongly support such a reveal. 

 

There were no conversations between characters implying that Chuck might be God other than Chuck saying he was A god but that was subverted when it was revealed he was prophet.  If other people had a conversation that Chuck might be God in the show. please point me in that direction. Chuck showing up in Fan Fiction may or may not be something that is evidence because we don't know really how Fan Fiction fits into the narrative if it does at all.  And Chuck could have been returned to earth By God to resume being a prophet

 

YMMV

[MysteryGuest]

Ok, so if Rob has been openly talking about how he was God in Swan Song, then I guess there's no mystery.  So why are they being so cagey now?  There shouldn't be any ambiguity.  He wasn't God until they decided they wanted him to be God, and now maybe he is or he isn't?  That's not messed up at all.

[DittyDotDot]

I really don't like the idea that the last 11 years have just been one long test for Sam and Dean.  That will really piss me off.  So God is testing them by fucking with them relentlessly, only to see if they're strong enough for him to fuck with them some more?  I have to say, I really hope that's not what this turns out to be.

 

Personally, I don't think he was testing them to see if they were strong enough, but was testing to see if humanity, via Sam and Dean, was ready to stand on their own. I don't think he was messing with them, though, but allowing them to make use their free will to make mistakes and then fix their own mistakes.  I believe he has interfered and helped them many times over the years--like putting them on that plane--but only when it's dire. He can't really step in each and every time they spill their milk (or break the world) because how will they ever learn to clean up their own messes if he doesn't let them make a mess. Plus, he gave humans free will to make choices, he can't then step in and take that away from them when he doesn't like how they use it.

 

 

Ok, so if Rob has been openly talking about how he was God in Swan Song, then I guess there's no mystery.  So why are they being so cagey now?  There shouldn't be any ambiguity.  He wasn't God until they decided they wanted him to be God, and now maybe he is or he isn't?  That's not messed up at all.

 

Well, the show's official stance has always been they've left it up to interpretation whether Chuck was God. It's their standard operating procedure, they don't want to alienate any sect of the audience. That's why I'm not sure they will come out and say it now. But, maybe they figure it's time? Who knows?

Edited April 21, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

 

But I could see God asking Death to test Dean to see if he was strong enough to withstand Amara.  And Amara doesn't want to just escape, she wants to erase the Natural Order and put her own chaos (the anti-order) in. So yes, just PURE speculation, I could see God trying to resolve his long standing issue with Amara because he saw Dean as "worthy". He didn't have that opportunity when Cain held the Mark because Cain had no chill for centuries and then he lost his chill as soon as Dean kicked over the bees' nest (metaphorically).  But when Dean took on the Mark and was de-demonized, God may have seen it as an opportunity to release Amara knowing she'd be attached to Dean.   And the test was to make sure that despite the twisting of his soul, Dean was still "worthy".

 

 Death is a Horseman. He's not in God's Family. He exists outside of God's rule and shenanigans. It's never been implied that Death works for God or would do God's bidding. Death doesn't seem to have been involved in Amara's exile he just knows about it.

 

I still don't see what motivation Death has to participate in such a thing with those annoying protozoa. 

 

 

Personally, I don't think he was testing them to see if they were strong enough, but was testing to see if humanity, via Sam and Dean, was ready to stand on their own. I don't think he was messing with them, though, but allowing them to make use their free will to make mistakes and then fix their own mistakes.  I believe he has interfered and helped them many times over the years--like putting them on that plane--but only when it's dire. He can't really step in each and every time they spill their milk (or break the world) because how will they ever learn to clean up their own messes if he doesn't let them make a mess.

 

Talk about your Small Sample Size! God needs to really rethink his test plan.

Edited April 21, 2016 by catrox14

[Demented Daisy]

Ok, so if Rob has been openly talking about how he was God in Swan Song, then I guess there's no mystery.  So why are they being so cagey now?  There shouldn't be any ambiguity.  He wasn't God until they decided they wanted him to be God, and now maybe he is or he isn't?  That's not messed up at all.

 

I'm sure that somewhere along the way, someone said that they preferred to leave it up to interpretation (Sera Gamble, definitely, maybe others), so they've backtracked a bit.  In one video, Rob discusses the reason he hasn't been on the show since the reveal was because they didn't know how to write a good story for it. They can't just have God walk in and say, "What's been going on, guys?"

 

So, maybe even Kripke thought they jumped the gun a bit in letting everyone know that Chuck was God.  I know that one of the writers -- dammit, I wish I could remember who it was -- said he'd love to bring Chuck back, if they could find the right story for him.  Maybe they've finally found the right story.  *shrug*

[catrox14]

 

Well, the show's official stance has always been they've left it up to interpretation whether Chuck was God. It's their standard operating procedure, they don't want to alienate any sect of the audience. That's why I'm not sure they will come out and say it now. But, maybe they figure it's time? Who knows?

 

TROLLS! THEY ARE TROLLING US HARD

[DittyDotDot]

So, maybe even Kripke thought they jumped the gun a bit in letting everyone know that Chuck was God.  I know that one of the writers -- dammit, I wish I could remember who it was -- said he'd love to bring Chuck back, if they could find the right story for him.  Maybe they've finally found the right story.  *shrug*

 

Sera said it once or twice, but I wouldn't be surprised if others haven't either. Now I'm thinking Carver may have said it back in S8 or S9, too?

Edited April 21, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[MysteryGuest]

Well, if they're going to bring him back, then they need to man up and pick a side.  Either he is or he isn't.  The only reason it's been left up to interpretation is because they have sent out totally mixed messages.  He absolutely wasn't God at first, and then look...now he is.  That's just bad or lazy writing, not clever mystery.

[catrox14]

Sera said it once or twice, but I wouldn't be surprised if others haven't either. Now I'm thinking Carver may have said it back in S8 or S9, too?

 

I think they've all said at one point or another. But honestly, they could easily bring him back as a prophet no problem because Kevin died and no other prophets were active on Earth during this time. So just because he poofed out at the end of Swan Song doesn't mean they can't bring him back as regular Chuck again.

 

Personally I prefer that they never answer the question.  Never go FULL GOD!

Edited April 21, 2016 by catrox14

[Demented Daisy]

Sera said it once or twice, but I wouldn't be surprised if others haven't either. Now I'm thinking Carver may have said it back in S8 or S9, too?

 

Wait -- who said what?  ;-)

 

Found it:

 

http://www.eonline.com/news/596947/oh-my-god-we-need-to-talk-about-that-shocking-return-on-supernatural

 

"We knew that the musical would be based on his books, so we knew that we were going to bring him back. It was just a question of, ‘In what capacity?'" Thompson told E! News. "I have been trying to bring Rob back for three years! And I keep inserting him into episodes where he doesn't need to be there. Like in one episode, Charlie [Felicia Day] is like, ‘Oh yeah I found the unpublished books!' And that was just because I wanted to say Chuck's name again."

 

 

"I love the theories!" (Robbie) Thompson said. "I love every single one of them. I think it's fantastic. People reacting to a show with that level of passion where they want to dot all the I's and cross all the T's and perhaps even write fan fiction inspired by the work itself, I find it really inspiring. And I agree with all of the theories. I always view Rob's character as a proxy for [creator] Eric [Kripke], but Chuck is my God. I agree with that theory and I love it."

 

Robbie Thompson wrote Don't Call Me Shurley, for what it's worth. 

[DittyDotDot]

I meant, I though, Gamble and Carver both said they'd love to bring Chuck back, they just needed to find the right story. I'm sure they both said Chuck being God was left up to interpretation, too, but I was speaking to your second point, DD.

[ZennyKenny]

Death was killed by his supposed own scythe but it was vastly different from his scythe in Two Minutes to Midnight.  Could Death have more than one scythe?  Any stupid thing is possible with LOL Canon Carver, but IMO no. There should be ONE and ONLY ONE way to kill Death and that is with ONE and ONLY ONE scythe which we saw in 5.21. Not copies or different iterations of his scythe. So then why have a different style of scythe that is almost as tall as Death? Answer: Plot contrivance so Dean could swing it around and kill Death from 2 feet away.   

 

Death can stop time. The instant he saw that blade come even from a distance he could have stopped time and taken the scythe from Dean or he could have  sent Dean to outer space and killed Sam himself..in a literal instant yet he did not.

 

Surely Death would know better than to hand over his scythe to Dean knowing Dean. He had to know there was a chance he wouldn't kill Sam and risk his own death.  So why make Death stupid here?  Answer: To remove Death to keep him from sending Dean into outer space

 

So for me it's likely stupid writing with no attention to Death's characterization...OR

 

Being magnanimous to the Carver, killing actual!Death would work IF Death expected or wanted Dean to kill him. But why would he want that? To what end? Was he tired of being Death? Was it part of some grand scheme between Death and the Darkness, yet to be revealed?

 

I definitely agree with this, as well as the post you were responding to. That whole episode just made no sense to me. There have been a lot of events that I have disagreed with on SPN, but I gotta say that Dean killing Death was, for me, the true "jump the shark" moment.

[Myrelle]

Personally, I don't think he was testing them to see if they were strong enough, but was testing to see if humanity, via Sam and Dean, was ready to stand on their own. I don't think he was messing with them, though, but allowing them to make use their free will to make mistakes and then fix their own mistakes.  I believe he has interfered and helped them many times over the years--like putting them on that plane--but only when it's dire. He can't really step in each and every time they spill their milk (or break the world) because how will they ever learn to clean up their own messes if he doesn't let them make a mess. Plus, he gave humans free will to make choices, he can't then step in and take that away from them when he doesn't like how they use it.

 

I think the beings he hurt the most by his "disappearing" were the angels-who were not built/made/created to handle free will. And it was through the hurt that the angels experienced that Dean and Sam have been hurt the most. It can even be put forth that they only exist because Dad flew the coop and the kids ran amok when they thought that he didn't care and was never coming back. I can totally see them going for the God/John parallel  as far as dads who say they care while actually rarely showing it or themselves-and helping from the "shadows" while no one even knows that they're being helped doesn't help when what matters more and most is the thought that your parent simply cares enough to want to help you during your most trying times-that your parent hasn't abandoned you to the whims of fate completely and w/o even caring that they did that. If they care, then the child needs to know that. Faith in the unseen is actually more workable and understandable for those who live in relative ignorance of the kind of evils that Dean and Sam fight every day, IMO. And then there's the whole resurrection thing that they also know about now. God might not feel that he owes anyone any explanations, but I'd disagree with him vehemently on that if I were one of the Winchesters-or an angel for that matter. And now there is this matter of him having possibly, cruelly, and unjustly(again, especially if it involved some sort of "contest" between the two dieties as to who could make a more "perfect" creation) having locked his own sibling away for what he'd hoped would be forever.

 

I think my biggest concern with these writers actually bringing God into the picture is that their writing has always been far too simplistic for some of the storylines that they've often introduced in the past and this one would be their most ambitious yet so if it's going to come down to their just making it all about the importance of having blind faith in the unseen...Well, that would be the biggest cop-out ever to me and I sure do hope that that's NOT where they're headed with this.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Myrelle

[MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND]

I don't think Chuck is God. If anything God took Chuck as a vessel at the end of Swan Song. I cant imagine he was God all along-just doesn't make any sense....... certainly would ruin Monster At The End Of This Book for me.....

 

I hope he comes back as the prophet Chuck -maybe he has some insight that God told him that he can share with the boys but other than that NO please NO!

[catrox14]

I think the beings he hurt the most by his "disappearing" were the angels-who were not built/made/created to handle free will. And it was through the hurt that the angels experienced that Dean and Sam have been hurt the most. It can even be put forth that they only exist because Dad flew the coop and the kids ran amok when they thought that he didn't care and was never coming back. I can totally see them going for the God/John parallel  as far as dads who say they care while actually rarely showing it or themselves-and helping from the "shadows" while no one even knows that they're being helped doesn't help when what matters more and most is the thought that your parent simply cares enough to want to help you during your most trying times-that your parent hasn't abandoned you to the whims of fate completely and w/o even caring that they did that. If they care, then the child needs to know that. Faith in the unseen is actually more workable and understandable for those who live in relative ignorance of the kind of evils that Dean and Sam fight every day, IMO. And then there's the whole resurrection thing that they also know about now. God might not feel that he owes anyone any explanations, but I'd disagree with him vehemently on that if I were one of the Winchesters-or an angel for that matter. And now there is this matter of him having possibly, cruelly, and unjustly(again, especially if it involved some sort of "contest" between the two dieties as to who could make a more "perfect" creation) having locked his own sibling away for what he'd hoped would be forever.

 

I think my biggest concern with these writers actually bringing God into the picture is that their writing has always been far too simplistic for some of the storylines that they've often introduced in the past and this one would be their most ambitious yet so if it's going to come down to their just making it all about the importance of having blind faith in the unseen...Well, that would be the biggest cop-out ever to me and I sure do hope that that's NOT where they're headed with this.

 

 

The bolded part is REALLY problematic for me with Dean.

 

Despite the use of religious lore and mythology, they've never been Touched by an Angel, 7th Heaven or Highway to Heaven, which thank the Flying Spaghetti Monster for small favors! The religious element has always been used  as part of the storytelling and even with Sam believing in angels and God they have mostly avoided prostelyizing. Or at least had a balance.  sidebar:  Although I could make a case that the easy killings of the most powerful non-Judeo-Christian and pagan gods in Hammer of the Gods is pretty borderline. 

 

Dean was/is agnostic/borderline atheist and I love that about him. In Paint it Black, Dean said "I believe there is a god but I'm not so sure in believes in us". That is not the same thing as Dean saying that he believes in God. There wasn't/isn't an implied judgment that Dean was any more or less valued nor less or more happy in life because he didn't believe in God or angels. He was/is a hero no matter. And we already have Sam who does believe in God and angels to kind of represent the "believers" side of the equation.

 

I'm not here for a show that wants to tell me that every horrible shitty thing Dean experienced is a lesson that for Dean to have blind faith in A God vs the Flying Spaghetti Monster or NOTHING AT ALL. It would be too close to invalidating a person of science or a skeptic. This show must retain as much of that balance as it can for me to really not be turned off by it.  YMMV

 

ETA:  From an acting POV I still would like to see what Jensen would do with a Michael characterization and it would pay off the Chosen Vessel 2 year bait and switch. They could actually write that without changing Dean's role as a skeptic because he may just find out that he's not all that much like Michael as Michael wanted him to think he was and all the angels are full of shit (aside from Castiel of course)

Edited April 21, 2016 by catrox14

[SueB]

If they make Chuck God, that does change what Dean believes in. He knows a God exists and is likely not dead. But this is in the SPN Universe. But as you said, that doesn't mean he believes 'in' him. I imagine Dean has a lot of complicated issues with God. And God flat out told him to stop asking for help. So, whether or not he shows up is not going to immediately change how Dean feels about God's worth to the planet.

It's a fictional universe and French Mistake (which ALSO isn't our universe because Misha is alive and well) made parallel universes a thing. Plus I don't think they've been remotely pro-religion or in anyway implied those who believe 'in' SPN's non-pagan God are better than than those who do not.

And frankly, I'm not interested in placing the responsibility on the show to not offend any one group on this topic. I think they've shown a deft hand on this issue and I don't expect it to suddenly change. I want them to show a story in their universe and I think they've set up this event as a natural fallout of where the story has been building this year.

[catrox14]

If they make Chuck God, that does change what Dean believes in. He knows a God exists and is likely not dead. But this is in the SPN Universe. But as you said, that doesn't mean he believes 'in' him. I imagine Dean has a lot of complicated issues with God. And God flat out told him to stop asking for help. So, whether or not he shows up is not going to immediately change how Dean feels about God's worth to the planet.And frankly, I'm not interested in placing the responsibility on the show to not offend any one group on this topic. I think they've shown a deft hand on this issue and I don't expect it to suddenly change. I want them to show a story in their universe and I think they've set up this event as a natural fallout of where the story has been building this year

 

 

I DID say they have avoided endorsing any religion or taking a PRO or ANTI religion stance and that's because they HAVE kept a balance. I think it's a completely reasonable concern that they might be tempting fate by bringing God as a defined character into the mix. 

Edited April 21, 2016 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

Once God shows up on the show, then that changes everything, and not for the better.  Right now, God is this mythical being that some people pray to for guidance, intervention, etc.  He is the beacon of hope for people who are desperate for there to be some higher being who will help them in their hour of need.  Once he appears and cleans up this latest mess, then what happens?  He becomes a series regular?  He disappears and tells Sam and Dean never to call him again?  Does he go back and face all the angels who've been begging for him to show himself?  What about all of humanity?  I just do not see how this plays out in a positive way for the show.  And I will continue to hope that Chuck comes back as Chuck, possibly as a messenger from God, and that God himself does not show his face.

[SueB]

I agree they are tempting fate.

[Demented Daisy]

I tend to fall in the South Park camp when it comes to the portrayal of religious figures -- either it's all off limits, or none of it is.

[Omegamom]

Didn't really know where to put this...TippiTV's lovely, snark-filled recap of "Hell's Angel":

http://tippitv.tumblr.com/post/143190020867/previously-on-supernatural-theyre-going-to

Edited April 22, 2016 by Omegamom

[catrox14]

Wednesday May 11

 

SUPERNATURAL

“All in the Family” — (9:00-10:00 p.m. ET) (Content Rating TBD) (HDTV)

THE WAR CONTINUES – Amara (guest star Emily Swallows) shows Dean (Jensen Ackles) how she’s torturing Lucifer (Misha Collins). Worried for Castiel, Dean and Sam (Jared Padalecki) come up with a plan to rescue him from Amara’s clutches. Thomas J. Wright directed the episode written by Eugenie Ross-Leming & Brad Buckner (#1121). Original airdate 5/11/2016.

Edited April 22, 2016 by catrox14

[SueB]

Oh. Lovely. Poor Cas. I NEED the boys to rescue him and I need Cas to know he's worth more than being Lucifer's vessel.

[MysteryGuest]

I really want to see Cas snap out of whatever trance or spell he's under and actually be a part of his own rescue.  I hate that they've made him so pathetic this season.  They really do need to send Lucifer packing.  

[catrox14]

I really want to see Cas snap out of whatever trance or spell he's under and actually be a part of his own rescue.  I hate that they've made him so pathetic this season.  They really do need to send Lucifer packing.  

 

I think Amara did something to him when she belittled him and burned the message on his chest.  I think the attack dog spell messed with him too.

[MysteryGuest]

Right, he spent the first half of the season recovering from Rowen's spell, only to then sign up for the Lucifer show.  I guess I'd just like his choice regarding Lucifer end up somehow being a good decision.  I don't think that's going to happen, though.

[auntvi]

episode written by Eugenie Ross-Leming & Brad Buckner

 

 

That's not a sign that things will work out well for Castiel.