Spoilers With Speculation

[MysteryGuest]

So then the theory is that God just took over Chuck's persona?  Because even Chuck thought he was just Chuck in The Monster at the End of This Book.  And if he later morphed into God somehow, that's pretty creative writing.  Oh well, it won't be the first season finale I haven't liked.

[Demented Daisy]

I think it's possible that Chuck was God in S5, but not necessarily in S4.  And not just Swan Song, but the entire season.

 

Is it possible that the archangel that smited the crap out of Cas was God appearing to Chuck?  Consider what Castiel trying to talk to Dean did; imagine if God did the same.  I think He could quite easily blow Castiel to smithereens, convince Chuck to be His vessel, then bring Cas back.

 

I'm not saying that's what happened, but I accept it as a possibility.

 

Edited for clarity.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Demented Daisy

[Aeryn13]

Don`t remind me, so God was all high on a Sam-girl? Jeez. The meta-statement, it burns.

 

I think they will just handwave it if he is God. Put some Chuck clips in the previouslies, then bring the character back in and don`t refer much back to Seasons 4 and 5. Then they will proceed to do to God what they did to Death for me: destroy the character. I just see them pulling off any kind of scenario where they can make it work. And what they`ve established so far about God doesn`t make him terribly admirable, likeable or appealing in the first place, Death at least had cool points on his introduction.

 

But with not having God on physically so far, I can at least give him the benefit of the doubt in my mind. Once he is brought in as a character and acts in a certain way, spouts certain dialogue, that`s over and done with. You only have one chance to make a good first impression. Right now it is still vague enough and not 100 % confirmed that I believe this is the first impression. 

 

And heck, if he was God, I would want him blown to smithereens for 5.22 and that assy monologue alone. Man, that was insult to injury.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Aeryn13

[MysteryGuest]

Aeryn13, that's exactly what I think.  If God doesn't make an appearance, then that's consistent with what he's always done.  He created the heavens and the earth, and then he's left us to our own devices to either sink or swim.  I can deal with that.  But if he shows up now, why is that?  Is he truly afraid of Amara?  Is he suddenly concerned for his human creation?  Is he going to pitch in and help the boys lock up his little trouble makers, or will he just zap them somewhere else?  I wouldn't think he'd need to get his hands dirty, nor do I see him wanting to join Team Free Will.  It's really kind of silly if you think about it.   I just don't see this ending well.

[trxr4kids]

If Chuck is God and has been him since at least Swan Song, it just makes him look horrible and hypocritical IMO.

 

Going back to the dialogue from Swan Song:

CHUCK (VOICEOVER):" So, what's it all add up to? It's hard to say. But me, I'd say this was a test... for Sam and Dean. And I think they did all right. [Flashbacks play.] Up against good, evil, angels, devils, destiny, and God himself, they made their own choice."

 

"They chose family. And, well... isn't that kinda the whole point?"

 

So if he is God he just said they were up against not just him but everything else as some sort of warped test they A) didn't know they were taking and B) didn't have the text book to study for.

 

So the whole point was choosing family? head desk Amara, Lucifer, Michael, Gabriel, Raphael? Bueller anyone?

 

Edited for punctuation and clarity

 

Edited a second time to add: So if he was God he was perfectly happy with the collateral damage his test cost and He didn't interfere then. I'd say the apocalypse caused more deaths and destruction than Amara has.

Edited April 19, 2016 by trxr4kids

[Demented Daisy]

Aeryn13, that's exactly what I think.  If God doesn't make an appearance, then that's consistent with what he's always done.  He created the heavens and the earth, and then he's left us to our own devices to either sink or swim.  I can deal with that.  But if he shows up now, why is that?  

 

Because no threat has been able to destroy not just humanity, but the whole of creation in the way that Amara can.

[MysteryGuest]

Ok, so Amara's been set loose on the world.  Then why has he waited so long to answer her?  Why has he allowed her to suck up souls all over town, and murder countless others if he knows what she's capable of?  I know...dramatic effect.  I suppose it stands to reason that in the SPN world, God will be no more likable than the angels we've met...with the exception of Cas.

[Aeryn13]

 

"They chose family. And, well... isn't that kinda the whole point?"

 

And they didn`t even. Sam put his plan in action to save the day and Dean didn`t stop him. Or tried to. If you wanted to make an argument, then he actually chose the world over freaking family. Nor did Sam "choose family" there. 

 

Then again, as we learned from Amara and Metatron, God is the poster boy for NOT choosing family. He incarcerated his sibling for creation.

 

If he gave little thought or care to said creation till now, I don`t understand what would change even if Amara threatened to erase it. If he doesn`t care about his toy anymore, he shouldn`t care if it gets broken either. Unless it is a problem of ego since Amara plans to do her own creation afterwards. Where presumably she would be worshipped and not him.

[Myrelle]

I hate the whole concept of the SPN God "testing" his creation. Screw that. It doesn't make him any better than the angels, IMO. And I think he's showing up now because his own ass is on the line and he knows that he can't handle the problem on his own. That's it. And I further think that he'll just use the faith card and the "rewarding" of those who've always had faith in him as his reason for showing up now. IOW, IMO, the SPN God will "play" humanity as he's always played them, and as Amara pointed out that he has and does to that one priest in that one episode this season.

[catrox14]

I get not liking Chuck as God but I don't think you can say it's complete bullshit or pulled out of nowhere for a new

 

 

 

Controversial theory ahead. This is just some speculation.I have always been interested in the story of Jesus Christ if not necessarly a Christian. So everything I say going forward is massive speculation born of not being a religious scholar and knowing just enough to probably be dangerous.

 

I've thought maybe Chuck is Jesus

 

 I've pondered this for a little while because of the following reasons:

 

Chuck was expecting a call from Mistress Magda which implied she was a hooker or an escort.Perhaps that was a clunky nod to Mary Magdalene (although not accurate because she was not a prostitute by all accounts. Just an unmarried woman who chose to follow Jesus). But why have a call from an escort to God? Why would God not know Sam and Dean?

 

--Jesus was a man and drank wine.

 

--Jesus is  thought of as a prophet at minimum by many religions and of course the Son of God by Christians.

 

Perhaps Chuck is Jesus in the missing years between his birth and his ministry.  Sure the timelines are wonky but why not?  Maybe that's why the Amulet didn't work around him because he's not yet divine. Like he's being tested by God to help the Winchesters and writing their lives as part of his burgeoning divinity.

 

Perhaps he was learning to understand humanity so that he could then bring his teachings to his followers. Jesus was known to spend time with persons of ill-repute.

.

It could explain why Joshua said God was on Earth because it was the Son of God but maybe Chuck wasn't ready to be part of the Holy Trinity yet but Joshua knew he was the Son of God.

 

I have a little headcanon that the test was not just for Sam and Dean but for him too.

 

Sure its totally wackadoo Wibbley Wobbley Timey Wimey Stuff

 

but a human Jesus who has not yet become divine but is made divine because he tried to help the Winchesters as much as could seems....nice.

[DittyDotDot]

Ok, so Amara's been set loose on the world.  Then why has he waited so long to answer her?  Why has he allowed her to suck up souls all over town, and murder countless others if he knows what she's capable of? 

 

I go back to Joshua saying, "Why does he allow evil in the first place? You could drive yourself nuts asking questions like that."

 

Wizards, I tell ya. ;)

[catrox14]

I go back to Joshua saying, "Why does he allow evil in the first place? You could drive yourself nuts asking questions like that."

 

Wizards, I tell ya. ;)

 

And this is the exact problem I had with bringing God into the mix at all. It's bullshit. 

 

Dean had already answered himself that evil is just random and he accepted that. But now Dean is being told that there is a God who just doesn't give a shit. It's not clever IMO. It's not thought provoking.  Like it's this great mystery than he won't answer. That's why SPN!God is a jerk.

 

Sorry Andrew Dabb but posing the question you never really intend to answer is bullshit

Edited April 19, 2016 by catrox14

[Demented Daisy]

And this is the exact problem I had with bringing God into the mix at all. It's bullshit. 

 

Dean had already answered himself that evil is just random and he accepted that. But now Dean is being told that there is a God who just doesn't give a shit. It's not clever IMO. It's not thought provoking.  Like it's this great mystery than he won't answer. That's why SPN!God is a jerk.

 

Sorry Andrew Dabb but posing the question you never really intend to answer is bullshit

 

I understand that's your interpretation of the events of Dark Side of the Moon, but I vehemently disagree.  If God didn't care, He never would have brought any of them back from the dead, nor allowed his angels to drag Dean from Hell.

 

That's right.  IMO, if it weren't for God, Dean would still be in Hell.  It was His plan that the angels were following, even if they altered it to serve their purpose.

[AwesomO4000]

If it was His plan, wouldn't that mean that He meant for Dean to go to hell in the first place? And that would mean that He also meant for Dean to kill Sam as Lucifer, so what would've happened to Sam? Sam just goes poof with Lucifer?

 

If I were Sam and Dean, I would think that that was a pretty crappy plan myself.

[Demented Daisy]

If it was His plan, wouldn't that mean that He meant for Dean to go to hell in the first place? And that would mean that He also meant for Dean to kill Sam as Lucifer, so what would've happened to Sam? Sam just goes poof with Lucifer?

 

That's where my line about the angels altering His plan to serve their purpose comes in.  We don't know how much -- if any! -- of God's plan the angels adhered to.  We don't know how much Azazel or Lilith or Ruby knew.  Did they think they were just freeing Lucifer?  Or did they know that the Apocalypse was the endgame?

 

Some terrible things have happened to Sam and Dean, I think we can all agree on that.  How much of that is free will and how much is God's design?  We just might find that out in the upcoming episodes.  *shrug*

[catrox14]

God left Dean there for 40 years before he gave a shit enough to get him out. He let him be tormented for 30 years and only got him out after Dean broke the first seal which only broke because a Righteous Man in Hell could no longer take the torment of 30 years. God getting Dean out of Hell was not a kindness or a favor especially now. God OWED him that considering this is actually all his fault to begin with and God owes the whole Winchester family a big fat fucking apology for messing up their lives.

[DittyDotDot]

Ya know, it's hard for me to get worked up about God yet because I'm still not sure they're gonna actually come out and state whether Chuck is God. Lord knows I expect them to screw it all up in the end--they always screw it up--but for some reason I just don't care this year.

 

Perhaps I've been possessed by something evil? ;)

[trxr4kids]

Perhaps I've been possessed by something evil? ;)

I'm voting on the dreaded Apathy Monster, a close relative of the Repetition Monster. ; )

[Demented Daisy]

God left Dean there for 40 years before he gave a shit enough to get him out. He let him be tormented for 30 years and only got him out after Dean broke the first seal which only broke because a Righteous Man in Hell could no longer take the torment of 30 years. God getting Dean out of Hell was not a kindness or a favor especially now. God OWED him that considering this is actually all his fault to begin with and God owes the whole Winchester family a big fat fucking apology for messing up their lives.

 

Yeah, definitely gotta agree to disagree on that one.  Dean had to pay for selling his soul.  That's the way it goes in this universe.   

 

Besides, Dean breaking a seal in Hell only released Lucifer.  It didn't actually start the Apocalypse, nor did Sam killing Lilith.  That's why it's "The Apocalypse that Wasn't" -- Lucifer and Michael never took their vessels.  Not their true vessels, anyway.  And they never engaged in battle for the souls of earth.

 

I once said that the Winchesters were special in the eyes of God -- and I stand by that.  They've been helped more than anyone else in the SPN universe, as far as we know.  But they have made mistakes.  They have exerted their free will.  I don't believe that God saying that Sam and Dean would be Lucifer and Michael's vessels meant that the events were preordained.  Possibly the opposite.  If God had a specific plan for how it was supposed to happen, then the angels wouldn't have been able to create their own plan, I would expect.

[catrox14]

 

Yeah, definitely gotta agree to disagree on that one.  Dean had to pay for selling his soul.  That's the way it goes in this universe.

 

Dean going to Hell for one day would have been payment enough because that would have been a year. 

 

So if God was doing Dean such a favor why did he wait 40 years?

 

. But God literally didn't care about Dean UNTIL he broke the first seal.

[Demented Daisy]

Dean going to Hell for one day would have been payment enough because that would have been a year. 

 

So if God was doing Dean such a favor why did he wait 40 years?

 

. But God literally didn't care about Dean UNTIL he broke the first seal.

 

No, that's not what happened.  Castiel said that as soon as they figured out what Alastair's plan was, they laid siege to Hell.  They were trying to rescue Dean before he broke the first seal.  Unfortunately, they were too late.

 

Now, did some of those angels perhaps not fight as hard as they could have to save him before he broke?  Maybe.  But that was their plan, not God's.

 

As for how long Dean was in Hell, compared to how long others have to spend in Hell for selling their souls, I'd say he was incredibly lucky to only get 40 days/years.

[MysteryGuest]

Castiel told Dean that God commanded that he rescue him from hell.  But if that's the case, it was just because they needed to use him as a pawn in their little chess apocalypse game.  He wasn't saved because God thought he had suffered enough and that he deserved to be saved.  They needed him.  As Cas has said about his own resurrections, they feel more like punishment than anything else.  Dean and Sam have been brought back so many times, just so they could suffer some more.  Now I realize that's the whole point of the show, but it certainly doesn't paint God in a good light.

 

Edited to add that I hate autocorrect!

Edited April 20, 2016 by MysteryGuest

[catrox14]

 

Besides, Dean breaking a seal in Hell only released Lucifer.  It didn't actually start the Apocalypse, nor did Sam killing Lilith.  That's why it's "The Apocalypse that Wasn't" -- Lucifer and Michael never took their vessels.  Not their true vessels, anyway.  And they never engaged in battle for the souls of earth.

 

The Apocalypse actually started the moment Dean broke the first seal. That was confirmed by Cas. Sam jumping in the pit stopped it.

 

 

CASTIE:: You need to be more careful.

DEAN: You need to learn how to manage a damn devil's trap.

CASTIEL:That's not what I mean. Uriel is dead.

DEAN:Was it the demons?

CASTIEL:It was disobedience. He was working against us.

DEAN:Is it true? Did I break the first seal? Did I start all this?

CASTIEL:Yes. When we discovered Lilith's plan for you, we laid siege to hell and we fought our way to get to you before you—

DEAN:Jump-started the apocalypse.

CASTIEL: And we were too late.

DEAN  Why didn't you just leave me there, then?

CASTIEL It's not blame that falls on you, Dean, it's fate. The righteous man who begins it is the only one who can finish it. You have to stop it.

[Demented Daisy]

The Apocalypse actually started the moment Dean broke the first seal. That was confirmed by Cas. Sam jumping in the pit stopped it.

 

From the bit you quoted:

 

The righteous man who begins it is the only one who can finish it. You have to stop it.

 

 

Which proves that the Apocalypse never actually started.  If only the "righteous man" can finish it, then Sam couldn't have stopped it by jumping in the pit.

[catrox14]

From the bit you quoted:

 

 

Which proves that the Apocalypse never actually started.  If only the "righteous man" can finish it, then Sam couldn't have stopped it by jumping in the pit.

 

 

Who is the Righteous Man?

Who was Cas talking about?

Why would Cas say that Dean did jump start the Apocalpyse if that wasn't the case?

Edited April 20, 2016 by catrox14

[Demented Daisy]

Castiel told Dean that God commanded that he rescue him from hell.  But if that's the case, it was just because they needed to use him as a pawn in their little chess apocalypse game.  He wasn't saved because God thought he had suffered enough and that he deserved to be saved.  They needed him.  

 

We know that's not the case.  Cas has never actually spoken to God.  Most likely, an archangel told the lower angels that God commanded Dean be saved.  Again, the angels' plan, not God's.

Who is the Righteous Man?

Who was Cas talking about?

 

You said yourself that Dean was the Righteous Man:

 

 

God left Dean there for 40 years before he gave a shit enough to get him out. He let him be tormented for 30 years and only got him out after Dean broke the first seal which only broke because a Righteous Man in Hell could no longer take the torment of 30 years.

 

 

If Dean broke the first seal, then he was the Righteous Man.  If Dean was the Righteous Man, then Sam couldn't have stopped the Apocalypse because only the Righteous Man could stop it.

[DittyDotDot]

No, that's not what happened.  Castiel said that as soon as they figured out what Alastair's plan was, they laid siege to Hell.  They were trying to rescue Dean before he broke the first seal.  Unfortunately, they were too late.

 

Well, from Castiel's POV, that's what happened, but since the arc angels were deceiving most of the lower order angels, including Castiel, by keeping them only on a need-to-know basis, I'm not sure that's what really happened. I wouldn't be surprised to learn the arc angels knew all along what Alastair was up to and waited until it was too late to give the order to rescue Dean.

 

I can understand why God wouldn't intervene on Dean's behalf in Hell, though. Dean used his free will and chose to sell his soul knowing the consequences for doing so. Who was God to swoop in at the last minute and take that choice or consequence away from Dean?

 

However, I don't think it was God's plan to have Dean in Hell, necessarily. I don't think he had a clear cut plan but was running an experiment to see what humanity, via Sam and Dean, would do. He couldn't intervene and stop it all because it was a test to see if humanity was ready to stand up and defend themselves. So, I don't think he knew what was going to happen, but probably could see all the different lines of possibilities and had to stand back and see which choices would be made.

 

It's like Carver saying he had 3-year plan at the start of S8. I don't believe for a minute he had every detail planned out for every episode for the next three years, but a basic outline the general journey. The specifics got filled in as they went along and made choices and some of the plan shifted due to those choices changing things on occasion.

 

Okay, I realize that's a bad analogy because we all know, if Carver once had a plan, that plan has long ago been left in the dust and they're just making shit up as they go along anymore. ;)

[catrox14]

We know that's not the case.  Cas has never actually spoken to God.  Most likely, an archangel told the lower angels that God commanded Dean be saved.  Again, the angels' plan, not God's.

 

You said yourself that Dean was the Righteous Man:

 

 

I am asking if YOU think Dean is the Righteous Man or not.

 

You might have missed my other question.

 

Why did Cas say that Dean jump-started the Apocalpyse?

[MysteryGuest]

It could have been a message from God to his higher ups, or it could have just been manipulative angels acting for their own selfish purposes.  But if God didn't ask for Dean to be saved, then what makes us so sure that God put them on that plane, or that he really spoke to Joshua, or that he's ever intervened at all?  And if he hasn't before, then why would he now?

 

We can certainly go round and round on this till the cows come home, but ultimately, the writers are going to do whatever they feel like doing, whether it makes sense, or fits the canon.  I just wish they were more creative than that.  It's sort of cheating to go back and change what happened just to serve the story today.  They need to think first before they write themselves into these predicaments.  

Edited April 20, 2016 by MysteryGuest

[Demented Daisy]

I am asking if YOU think Dean is the Righteous Man or not.

 

You might have missed my other question.

 

Why did Cas say that Dean jump-started the Apocalpyse?

 

Dean has to be the Righteous Man because the seal was broken.

 

As for Cas, he didn't say that.  Dean said that he jump-started the Apocalypse.  Cas didn't confirm -- he said that the angels were too late.  He did say that Dean broke the first seal and "started all of this".  Now, it's up to interpretation what "all of this" is, but I believe that they never actually had an Apocalypse.  Mileage varies, of course.

 

 

It's sort of cheating to go back and change what happened just to serve the story today.  

 

 

I don't think TPTB are doing that -- mostly because I haven't seen what the story is for the rest of the season.  It's all speculation at this point.

[MysteryGuest]

Well, if they don't go there, I will be the first one to commend them for not doing so.  

[trxr4kids]

If Dean broke the first seal, then he was the Righteous Man.  If Dean was the Righteous Man, then Sam couldn't have stopped the Apocalypse because only the Righteous Man could stop it.

Thanks Demented, now I have Sesame Street's Which Comes First the Chicken or the Egg stuck in my head. ; )

[catrox14]

 

As for Cas, he didn't say that.  Dean said that he jump-started the Apocalypse.  Cas didn't confirm -- he said that the angels were too late.  He did say that Dean broke the first seal and "started all of this".  Now, it's up to interpretation what "all of this" is, but I believe that they never actually had an Apocalypse.  Mileage varies, of course.

 

CASTIEL:Yes. When we discovered Lilith's plan for you, we laid siege to hell and we fought our way to get to you before you—

DEAN:Jump-started the apocalypse.

CASTIEL: And we were too late.

 

Definiitely agree to disagree. The AND sure seems like tacit and implied confirmation that Dean did in fact start the Apocalpyse. Cas didn't correct him to say 'No, Dean, you didn't. It doesn't start until Lucifer is freed". There was no equivocation by Cas.

 

I get why the Apocalpyse never started is a thing. But IMO that just lets the writers off the hook for botching and/or  erasing Dean as the Righteous Man from the narrative. The end result is that Gamble wanted Soulless Sam. That's why Sam had  to go into the pit alone. Dean had to be topside and living the apple pie life so he could freaked out over Soulless Sam. 

 

So yeah I still think God is a jerk

 

On topic:  God has a lot of splainin' to do IMO no matter what. He owes the Winchesters a lot.

[DittyDotDot]

One could argue Dean--The Righteous Man--did in fact stop it by driving onto that cemetery and standing with his brother instead of battling him. Which would've been the apocalypse, as in, the end of the world as we know it (and yeah, I'm pretty sure I would've felt fine). ;)

 

However, if you take the literal translation of apocalypse--a disclosure of knowledge--and apply it to Supernatural. I guess the apocalypse started in S4 with them all learning what the angels and demons had been up to and what it was all accumulating to.

[catrox14]

Jensen has wrapped it seems. 

 

Jensen Ackles Verified account ‏@JensenAckles

Some of us had to stay back and finish out the season strong. #lastday #SPNFamily #baby

[trxr4kids]

 Which would've been the apocalypse, as in, the end of the world as we know it (and yeah, I'm pretty sure I would've felt fine). ;)

It's slightly better than Sesame Street : )

[SueB]

And it doesn't bother you that one little "poof" scene totally negates everything that came before it?  Chuck was not God in any of the prior episodes that season, so unless he miraculously turned into God, that final scene is just silly.  I bet Becky didn't know she was dating God.

 

4th subtick in previous post - I think Chuck was Chuck right up until the very end of Swan Song.  Below is the picture of Chuck through him telling Dean to go to Stull Cemetary.  The second is "Chuck" at the end who goes "poof".  It's a different countenance IMO.  Intentional IMO.

 

I hate the whole concept of the SPN God "testing" his creation. Screw that. It doesn't make him any better than the angels, IMO. And I think he's showing up now because his own ass is on the line and he knows that he can't handle the problem on his own. That's it. And I further think that he'll just use the faith card and the "rewarding" of those who've always had faith in him as his reason for showing up now. IOW, IMO, the SPN God will "play" humanity as he's always played them, and as Amara pointed out that he has and does to that one priest in that one episode this season.

 "God and his shiny red apples." (per Cas) is pretty par for the course, based on the lore they are pulling from.  Sure SPN takes what they want and makes up the rest, but I don't think they are intending God to look like an asshole.  I could be wrong, of course, but since God was Team FreeWill over the years (saving Sam and Dean, resurrecting Cas, etc...) I'll be surprised if he comes off as the villain.  

 

So, I DO think it's kinda controversial for them to "go there."  If Chuck/God is not a villain than those who hate him (SPN-verse God) will be at odds with the show.  But I think after 11 years, they push the envelope if they think they have a good story to tell.  Since I like Chuck/God and think he's still a good guy (I accept the notion that bad things happen to good people and that's okay because Free Will), I'm looking forward to the story. 

 

Regarding God's involvement in the last Apocalypse; my personal headcannon is that was ALL the Archangels doing.  They took the Revelations playbook (which does not have a "Righteous Man" character --- SPN construct) and hurried up the Apocalypse because they were tired of waiting. Cas and others indicated God had been missing for centuries and that Angels hadn't walked the earth for 2000 years.  Raphael specifically scoffed at the 20th century as a sure sign God was dead.  Clearly not, but that says to me that the Archangels were calling the shots for the 20th century.  Which means: getting a Cupid to match John & Mary was the Archangel's idea.  And YED picking up on Mary being "special" and Sammy being "his favorite" was playing right into the Archangel's hands (who, along with Lucifer, had the 'playbook' that said it would be a prize fight). And although Cas said "God commanded it", Cas never spoke to God directly.  He took his orders from the Archangels.  So either Cas said "God" when the word "Heaven" was more appropriate OR the Archangels & Zachariah LIED to Cas.  Since we know they were lying to all the "grunts", that fits the story we saw.

 

And I DO think that 1) Dean was the Righteous Man and 2) that it was the real Apocalypse -- just rushed by the Archangels and foiled by Team FreeWill with a little assist from God himself.

 

Dean being the Righteous Man: Dean broke the first seal. I see no reason for Cas or Alastair to lie about it.  For Cas, he was still falling in love with humanity at that time and not yet back at Bible Camp. For Alastair, why lie when the truth is so much more damaging?  And I DO believe that the Righteous Man ended it.  Because I believe that if Dean hadn't gone to Stull Cemetery and shown his self-sacrificing love to his brother, Lucifer would have never felt the pain of jealousy that those memories evoked.  Sam would never have been able to take back control and jump into the pit.  Even the scene STARTED with Dean putting in the tape.  I recognize that many think that this is not true because they feel Dean was useless in Swan Song.  But just because someone writes it down 1000 times and says it with fervor, doesn't make it true.  So, if in Kripke's mind, Dean "ended" the Apocalypse by showing up in the cemetery so Sam would not be alone... THEN in Kripke's mind, Dean WAS the Righteous Man and the show didn't mess up the canon.  That doesn't mean that you have to believe Kripke "sold" Dean as valuable.  And you can still say Dean was not the Righteous Man.  But there is at least ONE logic path that bears out that Dean was the Righteous Man who both started and stopped the Apocalypse.  And here's another thought:  What if Sam is ALSO considered a Righteous Man.  Yes Cas/Alastair said "THE" Righteous Man, but many said Sam "started" the Apocalypse by breaking the last seal. And Sam jumped into the pit.  So.. maybe BOTH Winchesters are Righteous Men.  As Cas said, the Bible gets more wrong than right. 

 

But... getting back to the upcoming appearance of Chuck/God (IMO)....

 

What was God's role in the first Apocalypse?  Well, I'd say he cheated a little.  He let the Archangels run with scissors all over his creation but he saw Sam and Dean and put his thumb on the scale in their favor a few times.  Putting them on the plane and resurrecting Cas (twice). So why have Joshua tell Dean to 'buzz off?"  Well, IMO, perhaps it's because God wanted humanity to keep fighting for themselves, even if He wasn't around.  And Chuck/God's commentary at the end, where he said it was all a test.... he said Sam & Dean passed.  They kept fighting for humanity with all they had. Each making a horrible sacrifice that tested them in their own way.  But he didn't mention if the Archangel's passed.  I'm going to say they failed. Big Time.  Which is why Micheal was sitting next to his brother in the cage for so long.  And then the rest of the Angels mostly failed when given the ability to choose.  They sort of grouped like lemmings and only a few seemed to get the concept.  And those who did, thus far, have died.  So personally, I'm hoping Cas & Chuck/God have a good conversation about what the hell he was doing with the rank-n-file Angels.  I do think, perhaps, that the Angels remaining have redeemed themselves because they've taken up their mission again (to protect humanity). Gone are the likes of Uriel.  Who was a major ass.  So maybe God let events play out because he wanted the Angels to grow some too. I've never bought that they don't have Free Will (like Anna said).  Or else Anna couldn't have chosen to rip out her grace in the first place. 

 

 

On topic:  God has a lot of splainin' to do IMO no matter what. He owes the Winchesters a lot.

On this we agree.  I'm hoping that 4 episodes will allow it to play out naturally and not feel like an exposition dump.

 

One additional point, while I realize Metatron is a lying liar who lies... if he WAS telling the truth and Creation was HARD... maybe God set up the rules and He himself has to live by them. Maybe that's part of the power required to make the Universe.  So... Free Will and a God-class Prime Directive of Non-Interference.  I could see that being something we hear about.  It wouldn't satisfy many, but it's not out of family with what they've shown us thus far.

 

Finally, just because I have a head canon that works for me that makes Chuck/God still a good guy doesn't mean the show/writers will go in that direction.  He could be Slimey McSlimey.  I'll be bummed but not devastated.  I think Dabb & Company are happy to fly without a net if they think it's a good story.  We may disagree but I could see them taking bigger risks at this point.  One reason I'm feeling fairly optimistic is because, from the conventions and tweets, I think the boys (J2) LIKE S11.  I think we'd see more silence and less talk about the season if they didn't.  And both of them were worried about involving Angels and God in the first place.  They are not likely to be happy if they think it's offensive. So, perhaps it's not as bad as some are fearing.

Edited April 20, 2016 by SueB

[catrox14]

 

But just because someone writes it down 1000 times and says it with fervor, doesn't make it true.

 

Okay. I generally never bristle at this kind of thing. But respectfully, this is rather dismissive and a tad reductive to completely valid intepretations of Dean's role or lack there of in Swan Song. If it was that straight forward I feel pretty sure there would not be such a divide in the audience about Swan Song and I'm not even talking about God. 

[catrox14]

 

What if Sam is ALSO considered a Righteous Man.  Yes Cas/Alastair said "THE" Righteous Man, but many said Sam "started" the Apocalypse by breaking the last seal. And Sam jumped into the pit.  So.. maybe BOTH Winchesters are Righteous Men.  As Cas said, the Bible gets more wrong than right.

 

This would really piss me off quite a bit. Not only would this erase Dean as the Righteous Man, but he's also erased as Michael's Vessel. I would rather think the writers just did not give a crap that Dean had ever been called 'Righteous Man' or that he was there to save Sam making him the Righteous Man. 

[SueB]

Okay. I generally never bristle at this kind of thing. But respectfully, this is rather dismissive and a tad reductive to completely valid intepretations of Dean's role or lack there of in Swan Song. If it was that straight forward I feel pretty sure there would not be such a divide in the audience about Swan Song and I'm not even talking about God. 

My apologies and not my intent.  My point is that it's often stated (as in at least once a week) as fact on this site that Swan Song was a complete abomination for Dean. And I'm arguing that there is more than one interpretation.  I thought the gist of your argument was that Dean's role as the Righteous Man was invalidated because of Swan Song.  My point was to say "not necessarily".  I'll acknowledge, I'm tired of the insistence that this is "fact" so that undoubtedly colored my phrasing.  Again, my apologies.  I wasn't trying to be dismissive.  

[catrox14]

 

'll acknowledge, I'm tired of the insistence that this is "fact" so that undoubtedly colored my phrasing.  Again, my apologies.  I wasn't trying to be dismissive.

 

Thanks for the reply. I understand where you are coming from.

 

I see it as more of strongly worded, passionate opinions on all sides of the debate vs "fact". 

[SueB]

I don't think the promo photos have been posted yet for EP20: http://www.thetvaddict.com/2016/04/19/supernatural-1120-photos-s11e20-dont-call-me-shurley/

[ahrtee]

Sorry if I'm changing the subject, and I'm not sure if this is the proper thread or if it should go under the WTFery thread (no spoilers but there is some spec); but having just rewatched season 10 on TNT, two things struck me:

 

In The Executioner's Song, Cain's comment that hit Dean the hardest was (paraphrasing):  "You're living my life in reverse."  Telling Dean he'd first kill Crowley, then Cas, and finally, the final thing that would turn him into a demon forever, would be that he would kill Sam.  That was what convinced Dean that he had to be stopped before it happened, and IMO settled his resolve to turn to Death as his only option.

 

The next thing was in My Brother's Keeper, when Death insisted that Dean be the one to kill Sam, handing him the scythe and stepping back.  No matter how hard I tried, I could never ever figure out why Dean had to do it.  (There was a lot of hand-waving involved in why Sam had to die at all, but in particular why it had to be Dean, other than the obvious angst.)  

 

So...combining the two, it looks like Death wanted Dean to kill his brother...just a few episodes after Cain had declared that would be what would turn Dean into a demon once and for all.    Was that just really, really bad writing (ie, no one had read the previous script or remembered it) or do you think there was something else going on?  Death wasn't really Death?  Or had some ulterior motive?  Or was under orders from...someone?  Or this was another test for Dean to see if he really was like Cain?  After all, Dean *hadn't* killed either Crowley or Cas, even though he had the opportunity and means; but he'd stopped himself in time.  

 

Or maybe I just want things to make sense and am looking in the wrong places.  And of course I'd like to have some explanation about why death could be killed so easily without any repercussions.  

 

Any thoughts?

 

 

[catrox14]

Sounds like Emily Swallow (Amara)was on set today....

[SueB]

Indeed: https://www.instagram.com/p/BEZCiswNHR-/

 

So Jared wrapped yesterday but Jensen and Emily are on set today... probability of Dean/Amara cliffhanger increasing....

Edited April 20, 2016 by SueB

[catrox14]

Indeed: https://www.instagram.com/p/BEZCiswNHR-/

 

So Jared wrapped yesterday but Jensen and Emily are on set today... probability of Dean/Amara cliffhanger increasing....

 

They shoot out of order so the final scene they shot today may not be  the final scene of the episode. All I know is there better not be another GD kiss LOL

[AwesomO4000]

Wow, I missed a lot while I had to be away...

 

One last thing to throw on the pile... speaking of angels who tried to get on board with the Winchesters and died. I think maybe the monkey wrench here is Gabriel. Gabriel also seemed to think the apocalypse with Sam and Dean was pre-ordained. "Ever since Dad flipped the light on around here, we all knew it was gonna end with you." But Gabriel was not really going along so to speak with the rest of the angels. He may have been tuned into "angel radio," but I'm not so sure how much he knew about Zachariah's plans. So was Gabriel lying? Or what did he mean by saying the above? I guess it could've been a general plan - in other words it might've ended up being someone else, but his words seem to suggest that he (Gabriel) always knew that there was going to be a plan like this, and wouldn't that idea/notion have to have come from something God said or implied?

[Demented Daisy]

The hair and the uniform make her look like Kirsty Hinchcliffe, aka Officer Rafferty on Haven.  (You also might know her as Lucas Bryant's wife.)

 

 

 

Wow, I missed a lot while I had to be away...

 

One last thing to throw on the pile... speaking of angels who tried to get on board with the Winchesters and died. I think maybe the monkey wrench here is Gabriel. Gabriel also seemed to think the apocalypse with Sam and Dean was pre-ordained. "Ever since Dad flipped the light on around here, we all knew it was gonna end with you." But Gabriel was not really going along so to speak with the rest of the angels. He may have been tuned into "angel radio," but I'm not so sure how much he knew about Zachariah's plans. So was Gabriel lying? Or what did he mean by saying the above? I guess it could've been a general plan - in other words it might've ended up being someone else, but his words seem to suggest that he (Gabriel) always knew that there was going to be a plan like this, and wouldn't that idea/notion have to have come from something God said or implied?

 

 

I kind of addressed this yesterday when I suggested that God said that Sam and Dean would be the vessels, but not necessarily that he had a set-in-stone plan.  Because, theoretically, if God preordained the events, then the angels couldn't have come up with a plan of their own.

 

It's one of the many, many thing open to interpretation, IMO.

[catrox14]

Sorry if I'm changing the subject, and I'm not sure if this is the proper thread or if it should go under the WTFery thread (no spoilers but there is some spec); but having just rewatched season 10 on TNT, two things struck me:

In The Executioner's Song, Cain's comment that hit Dean the hardest was (paraphrasing): "You're living my life in reverse." Telling Dean he'd first kill Crowley, then Cas, and finally, the final thing that would turn him into a demon forever, would be that he would kill Sam. That was what convinced Dean that he had to be stopped before it happened, and IMO settled his resolve to turn to Death as his only option.

The next thing was in My Brother's Keeper, when Death insisted that Dean be the one to kill Sam, handing him the scythe and stepping back. No matter how hard I tried, I could never ever figure out why Dean had to do it. (There was a lot of hand-waving involved in why Sam had to die at all, but in particular why it had to be Dean, other than the obvious angst.)

So...combining the two, it looks like Death wanted Dean to kill his brother...just a few episodes after Cain had declared that would be what would turn Dean into a demon once and for all. Was that just really, really bad writing (ie, no one had read the previous script or remembered it) or do you think there was something else going on? Death wasn't really Death? Or had some ulterior motive? Or was under orders from...someone? Or this was another test for Dean to see if he really was like Cain? After all, Dean *hadn't* killed either Crowley or Cas, even though he had the opportunity and means; but he'd stopped himself in time.

Or maybe I just want things to make sense and am looking in the wrong places. And of course I'd like to have some explanation about why death could be killed so easily without any repercussions.

Any thoughts?

 

Death was killed by his supposed own scythe but it was vastly different from his scythe in Two Minutes to Midnight.  Could Death have more than one scythe?  Any stupid thing is possible with LOL Canon Carver, but IMO no. There should be ONE and ONLY ONE way to kill Death and that is with ONE and ONLY ONE scythe which we saw in 5.21. Not copies or different iterations of his scythe. So then why have a different style of scythe that is almost as tall as Death? Answer: Plot contrivance so Dean could swing it around and kill Death from 2 feet away.   

 

Death can stop time. The instant he saw that blade come even from a distance he could have stopped time and taken the scythe from Dean or he could have  sent Dean to outer space and killed Sam himself..in a literal instant yet he did not.

 

Surely Death would know better than to hand over his scythe to Dean knowing Dean. He had to know there was a chance he wouldn't kill Sam and risk his own death.  So why make Death stupid here?  Answer: To remove Death to keep him from sending Dean into outer space

 

So for me it's likely stupid writing with no attention to Death's characterization...OR

 

Being magnanimous to the Carver, killing actual!Death would work IF Death expected or wanted Dean to kill him. But why would he want that? To what end? Was he tired of being Death? Was it part of some grand scheme between Death and the Darkness, yet to be revealed?

Edited April 20, 2016 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

If that was Actual!Death then I wonder if he wanted or expected Dean to kill him. But why would he want that? To what end? Was he tired of being Death?

 

I still wonder if killing Death was an integral part of releasing the Darkness. I look at it like how Sam had to kill Lilith to release Lucifer back in S4. Lilith had to push Sam to do it in the end by taunting him. What better way for Death to get Dean to kill him than to tell him he had to kill Sam. Sure, Death said the Mark was the lock and key, but perhaps he omitted a piece of the puzzle to ensure Dean would kill him? It could explain Death's interest in Dean over the years and certainly would make Death handing Dean that scythe and his insistence that Sam had to die (and by Dean's hand, no less) make more sense.