Spoilers With Speculation

[catrox14]

Sorry for the extra mouse click, but I posted it under a spoiler bar because it was something someone claimed on Twitter but had no pictures but BIG IF TRUE.  I blew it off at first but thought well it was kind of interesting but it was late and I was getting sleepy and I didn't feel like digging for the tweet again.  If there would have been pictures I would have linked the pictures...like I ALWAYS do..see the YVR cemetery pics I linked just above the Mary rumor.  

 

In reply to #IronAngel Dawn

ristin ‏@NovaksMinion 13h13 hours ago

@SuperWhoDawn @andrewdabb considering Cas, God, and Mary Winchester are filming? VERY

 

https://twitter.com/NovaksMinion/status/720074066254774275

 

^^^^This was the tweet I saw and there was back and forth in the Twitter mentions. Y'all can do more digging but that was all I saw. I didn't just pull this out of my ass LOL. But who knows if the Twitter person did.

Edited April 13, 2016 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

So, someone saw Mary Winchester's name on a trailer, but no one has yet to see either actress or anything? I wouldn't be surprised to have a quick scene with her, but not sounding entirely like it's happening either. Interesting.

 

IF Mary in it it, dear god, the cup runneth over. In between giving this new girl Lady Toni Something at least a cameo, having Chuck, Crowley and Rowena there, having a failed? attempt with a spear from Cas as per Misha`s little vid and most likely Sam defeating at least Amara, maybe Amara and Lucifer, if they also brought in Mary, this episode sounds seriously overburdened. Why do at least 15-16 weeks of filler and then throw everything and the kitchen sink at the Finale?

 

That's kinda their standard MO, though. The last two episodes are generally overpacked so much they lose their punch, IMO. Ah well, whatcha gonna do?

Edited April 13, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

I'm thinking that Mary was in the Empty and a reaper put her there under the orders of Lucifer or Michael to ensure that there could be NO do overs and no ghost Mary to undo anything. 

 

OR they are visiting Mary's grave site again and it's some kind of pocket universe and they see Mary again

 

OR it's another djinn mind screw and Sam has wished for Mary or John to live and this is their alternate life. 

 

OR the boys decide that they want or need to bury all their family heirlooms in Mary's grave before sacrificing themselves together to save the World.

 

OR The Darkness was in the Empty and any soul that was sent into the Empty she would eat and hold inside of her forever so she thought she was alone but she has Mary and John inside her.   She might want to use them to recreate Dean and Sam's life with a different outcome. Man I don't want that kind of reset that's for sure.That would be the literal worst. The show better not erase their 11 years of history. If they reset part of this season or back to last season MAYBE.

 

Or IF the Mark messed with Dean's mind and he's actually still a demon, Sam has been trying to cure him for months but he can't and Charlie is still alive.

 

OR there is a time anomaly takes us back to Dean back in the Vortex with Amara but this time he kills her because he's seen what will happen if he doesn't. He sees Mary in the Vortex behind Amara...waiting for him.  Sam wakes up and Dean is gone and he looks for him in the flower fields but Dean is nowhere to be found. Sam goes back to the car and finds Dean behind the wheel of the car. He killed Amara but killing her mortally wounded him. Sam pushes Dean over to the passenger side of the car and gets the car out of the rut. Sam is driving as Dean is dying in the passenger seat. Dean tells Sam it's time for him to go and he tells him that Mom is waiting for me in the Empty. Dean dies, Billie takes his soul to the Empty and Sam's mission in s12 is to now to get Mary and Dean out of the Empty for s12.

[SueB]

There were two other ghosts (#1 & 2) listed on the trailer so I'd say 'ghost' Mary aka Samantha Smith.

And they apparently filmed the Dean/Cas hug enough times that it's important. I take that as a positive indicator that Cas gets free of Lucifer. Cause Dean is NOT hugging Luci.

If Mary is involved, I'm leaning toward her being there for Dean. It's not that she isn't important to Sam, just that the strongest emotional beat is through Dean.

I'm starting to think Yellow Crayon speech may be invoked. (Gratuitous Buffy reference).

[catrox14]

Wait, there is a Dean/Cas hug!!

Maybe the hug is a reunion hug like the one in Purgatory.

[rue721]

Mary was a ghost after she died -- she was finally "laid to rest" in Home in S1. So if ghosts go to the empty after they "die," then it would make sense for Mary to be there.

 

I agree that if Mary's there, it likely has more to do with Dean's storyline than Sam's. Not that Sam would be unaffected, but Sam never even got a chance to know her. He doesn't have the kind of mother/son connection to her that Dean has (poor Sam!).

 

If this were more about Sam, I think that the show would go the same route they did with Lucifer's dream-messages to Sam, and have John appear instead. That made sense to me because John is the parent that Sam actually knew and remembers.

 

I'm still not really understanding the Empty. Is it like the old Catholic concept of Limbo? And why does it exist? Why would God (or whoever) create a vacuum just to have this perpetually empty space? And if the space was created just to be empty, then isn't it going against the natural order for Reapers/Death to fill it with some dead people's souls? Or can you put things in it while keeping it empty; is it like a black hole, and once you're in it, you're crushed into non-existence, too (or is that not how black holes work?). Ok, once I'm asking about astrophysics, it's a sign that I've gone off on a pretty random tangent. Will end the comment now. Signing off. :P

Edited April 13, 2016 by rue721

[Aeryn13]

 

I think that the show would go the same route they did with Lucifer's dream-messages to Sam, and have John appear instead. That made sense to me because John is the parent that Sam actually knew and remembers.

 

They seem to want to go with the actual parent though, that is not the young version, and that doesn`t work for John because of JDM`s availability. There is precedence for Sam and Mary. She was one of Sam`s hallucinations in the penultimate episode of Season 4 and told him he was strong and Dean was weak and he was the only one who could do it. Back then that was about defeating Lilith but they could play it for real here and have actual!ghost!Mary appear to tell Sam he can do it and defeat Amara and Lucifer and tell Dean he has to stand aside and let Sam go.

 

Now I reckon God will tell them a similar thing so bringing in Ghost!Mary for the same purpose would appear somewhat redundant but that hasn`t stopped them before.

 

If believe this episode will be more or less the Season 5 Finale with everyone in the same roles, just with a larger bunch of guest stars thrown in. .

[catrox14]

 

Mary was a ghost after she died -- she was finally "laid to rest" in Home in S1. So if ghosts go to the empty after they "die," then it would make sense for Mary to be there.

 

Maybe the Empty is actually the part of the Darkness where she keeps the souls/life forces of those she eats. She told Dean she kept those souls to live forever inside her. So maybe she had life forces of all of God "first drafts" of humanity. He would screw it up, abandon his failed attempts or try to kill them and she scavenged those life forces for safe keeping. Maybe God had her locked away because she kept trying to put those life forces back into the universe causing chaos and messing with the natural order.

 

Okay this is getting weird.   If Amara is the Empty and Dean is attached to Amara because of the Mark and Death was maybe going to send Dean into the Empty then would that mean that Dean would have been inside Amara...and that's why he wouldn't be able to kill her because he would be killing himself? 

 

Emptyception?

 

 

Or alternately maybe the Empty is a space that Death created to make sure that the life forces Amara would scavenge and release would be sent and then God locked her away to keep her from scavenging more of his messed up creations. 

 

OMG what have I done....O_O

 

If believe this episode will be more or less the Season 5 Finale with everyone in the same roles, just with a larger bunch of guest stars thrown in.

 

I really hope you are as wrong as you can be. But I fear you may be right. :/

Edited April 13, 2016 by catrox14

[catrox14]

More set pictures

 

http://www.popsugar.com/entertainment/Supernatural-Season-11-Finale-Set-Pictures-40923733?slide=0

 

 

 

[Aeryn13]

I`m thinking the hug is a scene, considering the very somber look and the other pics are candid.

[Demented Daisy]

There were two other ghosts (#1 & 2) listed on the trailer so I'd say 'ghost' Mary aka Samantha Smith.

And they apparently filmed the Dean/Cas hug enough times that it's important. I take that as a positive indicator that Cas gets free of Lucifer. Cause Dean is NOT hugging Luci.

If Mary is involved, I'm leaning toward her being there for Dean. It's not that she isn't important to Sam, just that the strongest emotional beat is through Dean.

I'm starting to think Yellow Crayon speech may be invoked. (Gratuitous Buffy reference).

 

I was thinking Harry and the resurrection stone, walking into the forest to meet Voldemort.  He used the ring to bring back the ghosts of those he loved most, to assist him in his sacrifice....

[catrox14]

I think the one of Cas(ifer?) is a scene too. He looks like he's standing off waiting for Dean or something. Hard to know. I guess it depends on whether that scene is the beginning of the episode or towards the end since they don't film scenes in order.

[NoWillToResist]

*shrug*  I believe that Sam and Dean are special in the eyes of God.  The entire canon of the show is proof enough for me.  But, as I always say, mileage varies.

 

Wasn't it assumed that God got them off that doomed plane back in...oh, man...S5?

 

Well, the fact that they are hinting so much about Chuck being God makes me think that they won't actually go there.  Maybe that's just wishful thinking on my part, but if they were going for that big reveal, I wouldn't think think they'd tease about it.  But then what do I know?

 

It was canon that Chuck was a prophet, right? All the God spec is because he disappeared at the end of an ep and made a cameo in Fan Fiction, yes? Now that Kevin is dead, is there any likelihood that Chuck is simply reactivated as a prophet?

 

 

Wait, there is a Dean/Cas hug!!

Maybe the hug is a reunion hug like the one in Purgatory.

 

Apparently it's better since I think the person stated that while Dean instigated the hug, it was returned. *sob of stupid "shipper" joy* ;)

[Demented Daisy]

Wasn't it assumed that God got them off that doomed plane back in...oh, man...S5?

 

 

It was canon that Chuck was a prophet, right? All the God spec is because he disappeared at the end of an ep and made a cameo in Fan Fiction, yes? Now that Kevin is dead, is there any likelihood that Chuck is simply reactivated as a prophet?

 

Yes, Cas suggested that God put them on the plane and Joshua confirmed in Dark Side of the Moon.  

 

The "Chuck is God" spec is a result of Chuck's disappearance at the end of Swan Song (in addition to contextual clues, some of us believe) plus Rob Benedict's later assertions that Kripke (and others on set) asked him how it felt to play God.  For more on the issue, I recommend the Super-wiki article on God.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Demented Daisy

[MysteryGuest]

So back at the end of season 10 when Death was telling Dean he could send him somewhere where he wouldn't be able to hurt anyone else, are we assuming that was the Empty he was referring to?  Or is this just some place that Billie mentioned for the first time this season?  I didn't get the impression that Death was actually going to kill Dean, just that he was going to send him away.  The joke was outer space, but that wasn't what he meant.  Whatever the Empty actually is, I have a sneaking suspicion we're going to find out.

 

I really would like them to do something else besides kill off one of the main characters, just to have them come back next year.  They've done that enough already and it's almost a little silly now.  We know there's a season 12, and we know that at least Jensen and Jared are going to be part of the season, so can't they please come up with a new idea?  Maybe they can spend next season thinking of a way to free their parents from whatever limbo state they're in.  Since they're not in heaven (per Ash, at least), and we saw John climb out of hell, maybe they're in the Empty.  I don't know.  I want an exciting final episode, and a good hook for next season, but killing off Sam or Dean isn't going to do it for me.

[catrox14]

 

It was canon that Chuck was a prophet, right? All the God spec is because he disappeared at the end of an ep and made a cameo in Fan Fiction, yes? Now that Kevin is dead, is there any likelihood that Chuck is simply reactivated as a prophet?

 

I get so leery of even going down the canon path these days because it gets usurped, erased, ignored, and retcon'd left and right. LOL. I'm starting to go with text these days. It's the only way I can take all the LOLCanon shit in this regime.

 

But yeah Chuck is God is only spec at this point. And my ongoing theory has been exactly what you said, that Chuck is an inactive prophet and since there can only be one active prophet on Earth at time, that explains Chuck pretty easily for me. YMMV Plus I just flat out don't want Chuck to be God at all.

 

Joshua said God put them on the plane. If Joshua told the truth then yes God helped them. But the question in that whole exchange was the boys not really being sure Joshua was telling the truth, but his words hit Dean hard enough for Dean to dump the amulet and could have been another manipulation by yet another another angel to drive Dean to saying yes to Michael.

[Demented Daisy]

Joshua said God put them on the plane. If Joshua told the truth then yes God helped them. But the question in that whole exchange was the boys not really being sure Joshua was telling the truth, 

 

I disagree.

 

CASTIEL: Maybe… maybe Joshua was lying.

 

The brothers look at him. Dean already has on his jacket; his bag is packed.

 

SAM: I don’t think he was, Cas. I’m sorry. (He sighs.)

 

[catrox14]

Here is the entire scene with Joshua. Y'all can decide for yourselves.   Cas the angel thought Joshua the other angel might have been lying. Sam didn't think he was.  I think it's still open for interpretation IMO.   As is a LOT of s5 including the ending . s5 annoys me greatly.

 

 

SAM: This is heaven’s Garden?

DEAN: It’s-it’s nice… ish. I guess.

JOSHUA: You see what you want to here. For some it’s God’s throne room; for others it’s Eden. You two, I believe it’s the Cleveland Botanical Gardens. You came here on a field trip.

Sam nods in agreement and remembrance.

SAM: You’re Joshua.

JOSHUA: (nods) I’m Joshua.

SAM: So, you talk to God.

JOSHUA: Mostly, He talks to me.

SAM: Well, we need to speak to Him. It’s important.

DEAN: Where is he?

JOSHUA: On Earth.

DEAN: Doing what?

JOSHUA: I don’t know.

SAM: Do you know where on Earth?

JOSHUA: No, sorry. We don’t exactly speak face-to-face.

DEAN: I… I don’t get it. God’s not talking to nobody so…

JOSHUA: Why’s he talking to me. I sometimes think it’s because I can sympathize—gardener to gardener—and, between us, I think he gets lonely.

DEAN: (disgusted) Well, my heart’s breaking for him.

SAM: (interrupting) Well, can you at least get him a message for us?

JOSHUA: Actually, he has a message for you. Back off.

DEAN: What?

JOSHUA: He knows already. Everything you want to tell him.

DEAN: But…

JOSHUA: He knows what the angels are doing. He knows that the Apocalypse has begun. He just doesn’t think it’s his problem.

DEAN: (stunned) Not his problem?

JOSHUA: God saved you already. He put you on that plane. He brought back Castiel. He granted you salvation in heaven (he turns to face Sam directly) and after everything you’ve done too. It’s more than he’s intervened in a long time. He’s finished. Magic amulet or not, you won’t be able to find him.

DEAN: But he can stop it. He can stop all of it.

JOSHUA: I suppose he could, but he won’t.

DEAN: Why not?

JOSHUA: Why does he allow evil in the first place? You could drive yourself nuts asking questions like that.

DEAN: So he’s just going to sit back and watch the world burn?

JOSHUA: I know how important this was to you, Dean. I’m sorry.

DEAN: (emotional) Forget it. Just another dead-beat dad with a bunch of excuses, right. I’m used to that. I’ll muddle through.

JOSHUA: Except… you don’t know if you can, this time. You can’t kill the Devil, and you’re losing faith, in yourself, your brother, and now this?

Sam looks at Dean. He’s realizing just how desperate and depressed Dean really is.

JOSHUA: God was your last hope. I just… I wish I could tell you something different.

SAM: (concerned) How do we know you’re telling the truth?

JOSHUA: You think that I would lie?

SAM: It’s just that… you’re not exactly the first angel we’ve met.

JOSHUA: I’m rooting for you boys! I wish I could do more to help you, I do! But... I just trim the hedges.

DEAN: So what now.

JOSHUA: You go home again. I’m afraid this time, won’t be like the last. This time, God wants you (he lifts a hand) to remember.

There’s a whooshing sound and a bright light, similar to the one at the convent, blinds them.

Edited April 13, 2016 by catrox14

[Demented Daisy]

Here is the entire scene with Joshua. Y'all can decide for yourselves.  Sam saying he didn't think he was lying is just Sam's opinion. Cas the angel thought Joshua the other angel might have been lying. Sam didn't think he was.  I think it's still very open for interpretation.  As is a LOT of s5 including the ending . s5 annoys me greatly

 

Possibly because Cas didn't talk to him.  And that's what Cas wanted to believe.  

 

In the end, Sam voices his skepticism, but decides that Joshua was telling the truth.  Since Dean tosses the amulet and discontinues his search for God, I would say that means he also believed Joshua.  That, to me, contradicts your statement that the "whole exchange was the boys not really being sure Joshua was telling the truth".  Which is why I disagreed.

[MysteryGuest]

I always thought Joshua was telling the truth there myself, and that the boys believed him, as well.  That scene is one of the main reasons I don't want God showing up now.  It's not what he does.  I get that he locked Amara up, and now she's free and wreaking havoc on his creation.  But he'd locked up Lucifer, too, and he got out and was pretty much doing the same thing during the apocalypse, and he chose not to intervene then, so why now?  

 

I'm just going to hold out hope that Chuck is still a prophet, and that he assists in some way.  Otherwise, God comes to town, deals with Amara and Lucifer, and then what?  Does he just walk away again?  I don't like it.

[Demented Daisy]

I always thought Joshua was telling the truth there myself, and that the boys believed him, as well.  That scene is one of the main reasons I don't want God showing up now.  It's not what he does.  I get that he locked Amara up, and now she's free and wreaking havoc on his creation.  But he'd locked up Lucifer, too, and he got out and was pretty much doing the same thing during the apocalypse, and he chose not to intervene then, so why now?  

 

Because Amara is infinitely more powerful than Lucifer?

 

I don't think that God will show up just to fix everything, then disappear again.  That's not good storytelling.  It's not creative.  It's bland and dull.  I expect much, much more from the show.

 

In addition, I think adding God to the show gives Sam, Dean, and Cas a chance to do some soul-searching.  I think it would create a great opportunity for character growth.  That is, if Chuck is God; if Chuck tells them that He is God.  We, the audience, might know, but Chuck might keep that tidbit from them.

 

I don't know what is going to happen, but I don't think that introducing God would do any damage.  I think it could be a great story, for everyone.  But, as always, mileage varies.

[MysteryGuest]

Absolutely, to each his own, but I've had enough issues with the whole "God's sister" storyline, so having God himself show up would be the worst thing they could do...again, in my opinion.  But since I have very little faith in the writers, I am fully prepared to be disappointed.  They struggled this season with fulfilling the whole Darkness threat from the end of last year, and I don't think they pulled it off very well at all.  So how do they come back next year after God shows up at the end of this year?  They're in way over their heads, and it shows, unfortunately.

[trxr4kids]

Here is the entire scene with Joshua. Y'all can decide for yourselves.   Cas the angel thought Joshua the other angel might have been lying. Sam didn't think he was.  I think it's still open for interpretation IMO.   As is a LOT of s5 including the ending . s5 annoys me greatly.

You know reading it textually gives it a different spin for me. Joshua really preys on Sam and Deans insecurities and guilt issues. Had Zachariah delivered the same lines I would have called him a lying liar who lies.

 

ETA: If Chuck does turn out to be God, do we call him Chod or Guck? ; )

Edited April 14, 2016 by trxr4kids

[catrox14]

 

In the end, Sam voices his skepticism, but decides that Joshua was telling the truth.  Since Dean tosses the amulet and discontinues his search for God, I would say that means he also believed Joshua.  That, to me, contradicts your statement that the "whole exchange was the boys not really being sure Joshua was telling the truth".  Which is why I disagreed.

 

 

I guess I can see how you see it as contradicatory since I was just being kind of general in my comment there. 

 

My overall point was really more that since the entire episode leading up to that moment had been filled with truth, lies and deception like with Zachariach with the Mary avatar that having the characters openly question Joshua's trustworthiness leaves that open to interpretation.

You know reading it textually gives it a different spin for me. Joshua really preys on Sam and Deans insecurities and guilt issues. Had Zachariah delivered the same lines I would have called him a lying liar who lies.

 

ETA: If Chuck does turn out to be God, do we call him Chod or Guck? ; )

 

I like Guck.  Although Chod could be mispronounced as chode....and well you know that fits too considering he bailed on like ERRYONE.

 

RE: The Joshua scene. Right? I've thought many a time that Joshua came in as the Good Cop, the  benevolent manipulating angel, because Zachariah was not really getting anywhere by bullying Dean and torturing him. I mean did Zachariah just forget that Dean was in Hell for 40 years?? (probably becausae the show sure AF did). He brings in Joshua to tell Dean that God helped them once but now he's done after Dean just learns that Sam didn't think of him during his most happy times. Reminds Dean that Sam left them in the middle of the night...abandonment, God abandons them. Sure bring in the kindly gardener to trim that hedge just a little bit more for Dean to see there is no hope and pushes him to say yes.

Edited April 14, 2016 by catrox14

[SueB]

The biggest indicator the Joshua was telling the truth was that he stopped Zachariah torturing the boys a be it pissed Zachariah off. Joshua threatened him with God's wrath and Zachariah backed off.

A second indicator is that they never followed through on Joshua lying. The scene played straight. No sly looks from Joshua to indicate deception.

Third, the message fits with God (Chuck) saying it was a test and the Winchesters passed. The purpose of Joshua relaying the 'do not disturb' message from God was to put primarily Dean to the test. Was Dean going to give up and let 'destiny' win? And he almost did. But Sam's faith in him helped him to regain his belief in Free Will. This was the result God wanted. He wanted Sam and Dean to choose their own destiny and not wait for God to bail them out.

THIS time, this is God's own mess that he needs to clean up. God locked away Amara and she's pissed at Him (God). Amaea is God's family. He's going to need to help in the cleanup IMO. But I don't remotely think it's going to be easy. It appears it takes at least 4 episodes to resolve.

[catrox14]

 

The biggest indicator the Joshua was telling the truth was that he stopped Zachariah torturing the boys a be it pissed Zachariah off. Joshua threatened him with God's wrath and Zachariah backed off.

 

And that's the part where I think Joshua could have  intervened because Zachariah was never going to get anywhere being the bully and threatening. All that was going to do was get Dean to fight back more.  Zachariah was losing control and being petty. That's why I called him the Good Cop. He had to threaten God's Wrath to get Zachariah to stop.  I'm not saying Joshua didn't wasn't the person that God talked to but I'm not 100% convinced he was not part of the Angel Apocalpyse Conspiracy. He just used another tactic.

 

 

A second indicator is that they never followed through on Joshua lying. The scene played straight. No sly looks from Joshua to indicate deception.

 

That's not an indicator to me of anything.  That could just be Joshua not showing his hand and is a better liar than anyone else.

 

Third, the message fits with God (Chuck) saying it was a test and the Winchesters passed. The purpose of Joshua relaying the 'do not disturb' message from God was to put primarily Dean to the test. Was Dean going to give up and let 'destiny' win? And he almost did. But Sam's faith in him helped him to regain his belief in Free Will. This was the result God wanted. He wanted Sam and Dean to choose their own destiny and not wait for God to bail them out.

 

And this is just another reason I don't like Swan Song and  I part company with this interpretation. I don't believe it was a test from God. I think God was gone. Didn't care. At all. To the bitter end. He didn't want to help so he didn't. There was no lesson here. It's an asshole God who didn't give a shit about his OWN angels trying to destroy the world and Sam and Dean paid for God's BS.

 

And it's another reason I don't want Chuck to be God I still like Chuck. Not a fan of God in this universe at all.

Edited April 14, 2016 by catrox14

[SueB]

Absolutely, to each his own, but I've had enough issues with the whole "God's sister" storyline, so having God himself show up would be the worst thing they could do...again, in my opinion. But since I have very little faith in the writers, I am fully prepared to be disappointed. They struggled this season with fulfilling the whole Darkness threat from the end of last year, and I don't think they pulled it off very well at all. So how do they come back next year after God shows up at the end of this year? They're in way over their heads, and it shows, unfortunately.

I totally disagree. I think they've set up the last four episodes perfectly. I think it'll all come together. I see a TON of layered storytelling and setup. Key elements coming together:

- Sam and Dean are united, this is an all hands on deck season

- Amara is God's opposite but his sister. Metatron said Creation was hard work and he had to make a sacrifice (his sister). Seems logical that he couldn't create AND let his sister exist in that universe. So God's motivation for Creation is something I want to hear. Was it really about his ego? I think we'll find out.

- The Hand of God artifacts. Delphine was most successful. Does intent and bearer matter? Watching Dean watch Delphine (the repeat they chose to air tonight) he's taking something away from this episode. I really feel that.

- Dean's bond with Amara. Did God set that up? She is confused like Dean. She isn't doing it. What role will it play in the plot resolution. I suspect God WILL reveal himself to the boys and explain WHY the bond. I'm worried Dean may have to betray Amara to save the universe.

- Casifer plot. I think at a minimum Lucifer is going to realize wanting to rule is more interesting than actually ruling. If he survives, I think Lucifer is going to be permanently changed by this. And Cas? Cas is going to learn how much he means to the boys (my guess).

-The existence of the Empty and the pocket universe out of time? That'll come into play.

-And Sam & Dean? Well I think they get some answers and hopefully end the threat.

It's all adding up IMO. Now I get some people don't like the slow burn but I think S11 has possibly been the BEST season of the series. I'm stoked.

[catrox14]

 

I'm worried Dean may have to betray Amara to save the universe.

 

 

Betrayal implies that Dean wants to be loyal to Amara in some way.  And boy am I going to fucking pissed off the came back with Dean WANTING to not hurt her or some shit, when she's eaten souls, was likely going to succ out his soul, zaps him wherever and kisses him against his will. And how is now the Cas that she said was worthless and engraved a message on Cas' chest. 

 

 

Now if Amara is torturing Lucifer to get him out of Cas that might be a gift to Dean from Amara, but I don't think she's planning to play nice with Cas. 

 

Why is this a worry? Is your worry that Amara will try to kill Dean for his " betrayal"?

[SueB]

And this is just another reason I don't like Swan Song and I part company with this interpretation. I don't believe it was a test from God. I think God was gone. Didn't care. At all. To the bitter end. He didn't want to help so he didn't. There was no lesson here. It's an asshole God who didn't give a shit about his OWN angels trying to destroy the world and Sam and Dean paid for God's BS.

And it's another reason I don't want Chuck to be God I still like Chuck. Not a fan of God in this universe at all.

Just because you didn't like the story doesn't change what was on the screen. They had God (per the show creator) break the fourth wall and tell the audience explicitly that it was a test that Sam and Dean passed. It was Kripke's thesis statement. Free Will over destiny. You generally don't break the fourth wall to lie to the audience.

Personally I get the motivation for God to be absent. But I understand mileage varies.

ETA: if that's a goodbye hug in that pic, Dean doesn't look upset enough for it to be Sam gearing up to risk his life. The hug either jeans something else or Dean is about to do something risky.

Edited April 14, 2016 by SueB

[catrox14]

 

's all adding up IMO. Now I get some people don't like the slow burn but I think S11 has possibly been the BEST season of the series. I'm stoked.

 

Whoa now...let's not get carried away.  You think 11 is better than 2? or 4?

[SueB]

Whoa now...let's not get carried away. You think 11 is better than 2? or 4?

It's getting close. I'll see how it ends.

[catrox14]

 

Just because you didn't like the story doesn't change what was on the screen. They had God (per the show creator) break the fourth wall and tell the audience explicitly that it was a test that Sam and Dean passed. It was Kripke's thesis statement. Free Will over destiny. You generally don't break the fourth wall to lie to the audience.

Personally I get the motivation for God to be absent. But I understand mileage var

 

 

 

CHUCK (VOICEOVER): So, what's it all add up to? It's hard to say. But me, I'd say this was a test... for Sam and Dean. And I think they did all right. [Flashbacks play.] Up against good, evil, angels, devils, destiny, and God himself, they made their own choice. They chose family. And, well... isn't that kinda the whole point?

 

Assuming you are speaking of this part ^^^^, Kripke poses this as a question to the audience and answers it with equivocation. "It's hard to say. But me, I'd say" is open to interpretation that Chuck is giving his opinion vs stating this to be a fact.

[SueB]

Yes, I'm speaking of that part.  And if you want to interpret it as not a test, that's your business.  From a literary point of view, I think it's been reasonably established that in THAT moment, this was God who was also Kripke from a meta perspective.  He's provided his (the show Creator's) POV. He's also provide (in universe), God's POV. 

That's good enough for me. 

[AwesomO4000]

Whoa now...let's not get carried away.  You think 11 is better than 2? or 4?

 

Better than season 2 I'm not sure of, but for me, season 4 - most likely it will be for me in the end. So far it definitely is.

 

Long explanation as to why I think this way is detailed below and which everyone is welcome to skip...

 

I found season 4 unnecessarily grim, and that the conflict they created between Sam and Dean - usually at Sam's character's expense - unnecessary and a bit jarring as they moved from the beginning of the season to the middle*. The writers made it ugly when that wasn't really necessary to understand the difference in the brothers' positions, and was an example for me of the "angst for angst's sake" thing that seemed to get picked up again in season 8 and which can really mar the enjoyment of the show for me.

 

Also a little less enjoyable for me was the whole tone of season 4 that Sam and Dean were destined to fail at the hands of the angels and demons who manipulated them at every turn. That this is exactly what happened was more depressing than surprising - like the end of "Drag Me to Hell" or "The Cube" where I thought "really? After all that, the bad guy and all his or her manipulation wins? Well, that sucks." I mean some downer endings I can say "okay, bummer, but I get it" (example: "The Mist"), but the end of season 4, especially in retrospect, wasn't that for me. There were too many "Don't do it, Sam. Bad things will happen" anvils and "Dean isn't going to be able to stop it" anvils, so that when it did happen, it was more "of course Sam let Lucifer out" annoying than "Sam let Lucifer out?!?" surprising. Season 5 made up for it for me, but on its own, season 4 is actually my least rewatched season of the first 7.

 

So so far, I'm agreeing with SueB on this season being better - for me - than season 4. I like that Sam and Dean are working together, and I actually have some hope that they can defeat The Darkness somehow. We've had more than 3 or 4 fun or upbeat ending episodes (all there was for me in season 4) with some really good (for me) MoW episodes (as compared to say ones like Yellow Fever, Family Remains, Chris Angel..., Sex and Violence, and to a lesser extent Metamorphosis in season 4.) So, yes, so far, I am enjoying this season more than season 4, and if they pull it off, I think it can be a better overall season than season 4 for me.

 

* In other words what I saw in the beginning of the season didn't seem to lead to what happened in the middle or the end, and there wasn't a satisfactory explanation - for me - for the seemingly abrupt shift in tone. I guess my complaint can best be explained by comparing the teamwork and confidence in each other we saw from Sam and Dean in "Heaven and Hell" to what we saw in "Sex and Violence" 4 episodes later. To me, how we got from A to B was poorly explained and it made little sense, and this colored the whole rest of the season for me. That between these episodes we also had "Chris Angel..." and "Afterschool Special" which had completely conflicting messages despite being one after the other, just muddied things even further. So the plot and tonal shifts of season 4 were mostly a bust for me with too much plotonium affecting the characterization for both Sam and Dean.

[catrox14]

Yes, I'm speaking of that part.  And if you want to interpret it as not a test, that's your business.  From a literary point of view, I think it's been reasonably established that in THAT moment, this was God who was also Kripke from a meta perspective.  He's provided his (the show Creator's) POV. He's also provide (in universe), God's POV. 

That's good enough for me

 

 

 

 

 

If it was that reasonably established fandom wouldn't have this ongoing debate. But I'm going to live this here because it's a circular argument. I have my intepretation and you have yours. Both are valid. 

[Demented Daisy]

More set photos for ep 23 -- including Rowena and Chuck!

[Demented Daisy]

Time for TVLine's May Sweeps Scorecard!  I figure Supernatural could be in the following categories:

 

Fatalities: 14  (Wow, it's gonna be a deadly year for network TV.)

 

Possible Fatalities: 11

 

Resurrections/Big Returns: 10

 

Number of Time Warps/Jumps: 1

 

ETA  Remember, it's not just the season finale that these categories cover.  It's May Sweeps, which covers April 28th to May 25th.

 

Update:  Make that 17 fatalities.  Eep!

[DittyDotDot]

THIS time, this is God's own mess that he needs to clean up. God locked away Amara and she's pissed at Him (God). Amaea is God's family. He's going to need to help in the cleanup IMO. But I don't remotely think it's going to be easy. It appears it takes at least 4 episodes to resolve.

 

But, is it really God's mess anymore than Lucifer was God's mess? One could argue, God mopped up his mess by locking Amara away--granted it wasn't the squeakiest mop job--and it was the Winchesters who came along and tracked mud all over the floor again.

 

Same with Lucifer. God had Lucifer locked away and the Winchesters came along and set him free.

 

Personally, I think it's Sam and Dean's mess as much as it is God's. Doesn't mean God can't pitch in and help put things right, but not sure why this one is on God?

Edited April 14, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

But, is it really God's mess anymore than Lucifer was God's mess? One could argue, God mopped up his mess by locking Amara away--granted it wasn't the squeakiest mop job--and it was the Winchesters who came along and tracked mud all over the floor again.

Same with Lucifer. God had Lucifer locked away and the Winchesters came along and set him free.

Personally, I think it's Sam and Dean's mess as much as it is God's. Doesn't mean God can't pitch in and help put things right, but not sure why this one is on God?

Fair. And I love your analogy.

Maybe events are unfolding such that the Winchesters can't do it alone and he feels he's going to have to step in.

[DittyDotDot]

Fair. And I love your analogy.

Maybe events are unfolding such that the Winchesters can't do it alone and he feels he's going to have to step in.

 

Heh, kinda like how I tend to rewash the dishes my 8-year-old niece washes? ;)

 

There were two other ghosts (#1 & 2) listed on the trailer so I'd say 'ghost' Mary aka Samantha Smith.

 

Thinking about this more. Remember in Swan Song when Lucifer-in-a-Sam showed Sam all the little "devils" that had been watching over him and messing with him his whole life? I'm sorry, I can't help it, everything is just screaming flipped S5 to me lately.

 

So, if one of Dean's little "angels" is Mary, who do you guys think the two ghosts would be? Ellen? If it weren't for JDM's busy schedule..., and we've already had Bobby this season...hmm? Kevin, maybe? Hmm...?

 

I'm still not really understanding the Empty. Is it like the old Catholic concept of Limbo? And why does it exist? Why would God (or whoever) create a vacuum just to have this perpetually empty space? And if the space was created just to be empty, then isn't it going against the natural order for Reapers/Death to fill it with some dead people's souls? Or can you put things in it while keeping it empty; is it like a black hole, and once you're in it, you're crushed into non-existence, too (or is that not how black holes work?). Ok, once I'm asking about astrophysics, it's a sign that I've gone off on a pretty random tangent. Will end the comment now. Signing off. :P

 

Perhaps the name "The Empty" doesn't refer to the space itself, but to the souls that inhabit it? Perhaps the souls there are powerless--or empty? For instance, if Mary was in the Empty that would make sense because her and the poltergeist's energy cancelled each other out. Perhaps this is a plane of existence that isn't powered by the souls that inhabit it?

 

I really don't know, the show hasn't gone there yet (heh) so I don't have enough information, just a bunch of wild ass spec on my part. I was just thinking that if the show did decide to go there, it might actually make a certain amount of whack-a-doodle sense.

[dragonsbite]

Otherwise, God comes to town, deals with Amara and Lucifer, and then what?  

 

God drops the mike and walks away. The ultimate Deux Ex Machina!   (sorry, couldn't resist)

[RulerofallIsurvey]

And this is just another reason I don't like Swan Song and  I part company with this interpretation. I don't believe it was a test from God. I think God was gone. Didn't care. At all. To the bitter end. He didn't want to help so he didn't. There was no lesson here. It's an asshole God who didn't give a shit about his OWN angels trying to destroy the world and Sam and Dean paid for God's BS.

 

And it's another reason I don't want Chuck to be God I still like Chuck. Not a fan of God in this universe at all.

 

Wow.  I had a completely different interpretation of that scene.  I don't think God didn't care.  He did.  He cared enough to save Sam and Dean and Castiel.  He told the  Winchesters to Back Off.  (Probably because they'd already screwed up enough - especially Sam at that point.)  Didn't mean God didn't have a plan or would just let the Apocalypse happen.  

 

But in typical Sam and Dean fashion, they didn't listen.  So God had to go with Plan B.

 

I found season 4 unnecessarily grim, and that the conflict they created between Sam and Dean - usually at Sam's character's expense - unnecessary and a bit jarring as they moved from the beginning of the season to the middle*. The writers made it ugly when that wasn't really necessary to understand the difference in the brothers' positions, and was an example for me of the "angst for angst's sake" thing that seemed to get picked up again in season 8 and which can really mar the enjoyment of the show for me.

I just recently started watching SPN - and I'm only up to early S6 on Netflix (but watching new eps as they air and already know the basic arcs for the other seasons) but I had to agree with this.  I could barely get through S4.  I almost quit watching, even though I knew they were already on S11 and obviously the fellows survived.  It was damn depressing.

[Aeryn13]

I think the intent was to present Chuck as God in 5.22 but since I utterly hated the episode and thought what he spouted was ludicrous and not remotely shown as the message of the episode/Season or series so far, I just gave God!Kripke a big middle finger. Even if the writing is really good, I find it pretentious to break the fourth wall and monologue to your audience what they supposedly should come away with from the writing. It`s so much worse if they completely failed to get across what they monologued to me. At least Joss Whedon was only snippy in the Buffy Finale commentary and I can turn off a commentary track more easily than erase an actual ep from my mind.

 

So, I`m now of the mind that Chuck is most likely God and he`ll probably "help" a little bit and give some lip service to why he won`t or can`t deal with the situation wholesale. Maybe he will throw in some whining on how everyone else screwed up but it`s not as if my cup floweth over with sympathy or anything. If Amara killed him, I wouldn`t give a rat`s ass. Maybe even cheer a little.

 

Of course this is highly unlikely because I doubt they`d have the balls to do it.

 

I guess the only question is which random even bigger evil they will release by dealing with Amara. She said there were no parents but hey, maybe before God and Darkness, there was Chaos or something.   

[catrox14]

We need a stinking flowchart of responsibility here and Dean and Sam are the literal last people who should share any of the responsibility for what God fucked up in the first place and that includes the Apocalpyse and releasing the Darkness. The way I see is this. 

 

Demons exist because Lucifer made them when he was cast into Hell. Brother's Keeper retconned Lucifer's rebellion to being influence from the Darkness via the Mark. Seems to me if God never put the Mark on Lucifer in the first place and kicked him into Hell whilst still bearing the Mark neither the Apocalpyse nor the Darkness being released would have happened. 

 

All of it is God's fault.  If Chuck has been on Earth as God since Fan Fiction...and he didn't step in to tell Dean what the Mark was for and let Dean suffer well then God's an asshole again! Dean deserves to stab him in the face.  This whole Darkness thing is really stupid the more I think about. LOL

Edited April 14, 2016 by catrox14

[trxr4kids]

I guess the only question is which random even bigger evil they will release by dealing with Amara. She said there were no parents but hey, maybe before God and Darkness, there was Chaos or something.   

Now of course all I can picture for the finale is Butters as Professor Chaos being released. His plan to flood the world with a garden hose was arguably more effective and frightening than whatever Amara's been doing.

[catrox14]

I also don't think it's effective storytelling when the writer has to write a monologue to explain what it all meant. That should have been clear throughout the storytelling. But when you change carts midstream then I guess he had to give God a reprieve with that monologue.  So yeah I still think it's open to interpretation and it's bad storytelling

 

For me the monologue explains nothing and is a borderline retcon of the s1-5 arc of the relationship between the boys and John, the absentee father paralled in s5 with The Archangels and God, the absentee father.  The message being hammered home was that God and his family are basically John and his family.  That John probably did love his boys and tried to protect them but his own vengeance mission mattered more. That was the parallel to God but here God was just hands off, you kids fight it out. And he didn't intervene when Sam and Dean needed his help. That was just like John ignoring Sam's calls and Dean's call when they were desperate. I don't think John was supposed to have been testing his boys and making sure they would be okay, so I don't quite swallow that God was testing Sam and Dean all along. I think it was more that Kripke needed a happier ending with the renewal and he (maybe the network) didn't have the nerve to leave God looking like a jerk. 

[Demented Daisy]

Standard disclaimers.

 

This is God's mess because of the leaky Mark that allowed the Darkness to seep through.  It's Dean's mess because he recklessly took on the Mark.  It's Sam and Cas and Rowena and Crowley's mess because they had a hand in recklessly removing the Mark.

 

So, in this case, all hands on deck!  Though I haven't seen Crowley in any of the pics yet.  Wonder what's up with that....

 

Anyway, it's all about free will for me.  God is a parent who lets the kids make mistakes so they'll learn.  However, every now and then, the kids do something that they can't fix so mom or dad have to step in.  This is one of those times.

[Aeryn13]

Set reports all put Crowley there as well so I think he just hasn`t been caught in a pic. 

 

It`s probably not gonna happen but if Chuck is God, I would love to see a scene where Amara beats him within an inch of his life. If he just waltzes back in with an "oh, I guess you need me now", I would go for anyone socking him because the nerve and all but her punches would likely hurt.   

[catrox14]

 

Supernatural 11x20 “Don’t Call Me Shurley” - Synopsis

ROB BENEDICT RETURNS - Amara (guest star Emily Swallows) unleashes a dark fog on a small town, causing everyone to go mad. Dean (Jensen Ackles) and Sam (Jared Padalecki) realize this is a stronger version of the original black vein virus Amara previously unleashed. They team up with the sheriff to protect the town but their old remedy no longer works. Meanwhile, Chuck (Rob Benedict) returns with an interesting proposal. Robert Singer directed the episode written by Robbie Thompson. Original airdate 5/4/2016 (x)

[catrox14]

So I've been obsessing on Dean's clothing in those picks. Is this basically Dean's battle uniform?

 

It looks like he same coat he wore when he first touched the First Blade

 

It's a similar style to the coat he wore when he first took the Mark, different color

 

He wore another blue jacket with a similar look but heavier, more wintry when he went against Metatron

 

 

and when he killed Cain.