Spoilers With Speculation

[Myrelle]

14 hours ago, catrox14 said:

So, when is Dean going to find out about the Colt?

Probably when Sam kills Dagon with it. Those pics foretell very little for Dean or this Deanfan in this one. Again. Oh joy.

Quote

My sole hope for the episode is Dean getting a win.

I'll be waiting to hear... 

Edited April 4, 2017 by Myrelle

[catrox14]

28 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

robably when Sam kills Dagon with it. Those pics foretell very little for Dean or this Deanfan in this one. Again. Oh joy.

I was just coming here to say, I think if he doesn't already know, he'll find out when he sees it being used on someone else. 

Which I really hope all the dirt comes out about Mary's role in getting the Colt.  Dean only knows that whatever Mary did almost got Cas killed but somehow I think when he finds out it was the Colt, he'll be REALLY pissed that she would give over that weapon to the BMoL. 

[Myrelle]

I think that everyone who they want to redeem and who is as deeply involved with the Brits as Mary and Mick are going to be redeemed through the use of some sort of a compulsion spell being used on them. They will either fight it off or die. I'm sure that Mother Mary will eventually fight it off. Mick might die or get shot in tonight's episode. I haven't checked to see if he's listed in the credits for the rest of the season. Ketch might even kill him.

 FWIW, I DO agree with Aeryn that the birth of the nephilim is most likely to be the cliffhanger of this season finale. And as we speak/type, I think Cas is being prepared to take out either mother and child or just the baby when it's born, but either scenario will not bother the angels in the least.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Myrelle

[rue721]

If anyone kills the baby, I think Crowley will probably be the one to do it, because the optics of Cas (or any of the good guys) killing a baby are just too horrible.

That said, I don't think they've been too convincing about the baby actually being evil in any way, and I kind of doubt it's going to be murdered. Maybe they'll even go super corny, and Kelly will die in childbirth, and Mary will take the baby to raise it off the grid.

[Aeryn13]

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Maybe they'll even go super corny, and Kelly will die in childbirth, and Mary will take the baby to raise it off the grid.

A super-baby that could go either good or evil being raised by the returned-from-the-dead mother of the protagonist(s). Oy, if I were the producers of Grimm, I would call and want my storyline back. It`s a very feasible theory, though. Could see it happen. If they don`t have the cojones to kill off Mary again, handing her a baby and writing her into offscreenville seems a tailor-made solution  

Of course I had a lot more faith in the mother on Grimm. Mary is at such a point that I think the child will turn evil for sure if raised by her.  

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

A super-baby that could go either good or evil being raised by the returned-from-the-dead mother of the protagonist(s). Oy, if I were the producers of Grimm, I would call and want my storyline back. It`s a very feasible theory, though. Could see it happen. If they don`t have the cojones to kill off Mary again, handing her a baby and writing her into offscreenville seems a tailor-made solution  

I think it would be a big mistake for the show to give the baby to Mary.

It would rather undermine  her entire "I am your mother, but I am NOT JUST A MOM" speech to Dean. It also, makes her look even MORE cruel to think she'll run off and protect the nephilim and maybe even raise it but still not take time to bond with Dean AT ALL in any way, shape or form.  Dang, I mean I suppose they could but that really won't do Mary any favors IMO.

[Aeryn13]

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Dang, I mean I suppose they could but that really won't do Mary any favors IMO.

I agree but it would be pretty consistent with the character as is now. She takes pretty much every excuse ever to not even truly get to know her sons. That she would rather bond with any third party is very much in line with that. And I don`t see that changing. 

[SueB]

15 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Going by the pictures it seems that the Brits find a lead on Kelly Kline and order the Winchesters to take her out.   Mick meets with Sam and Eileen (not sure if she' working for them or not) and Mick hands Sam the colt and says he's going to tag along.  Probably because he got in trouble for letting Claire go. 

Sam, Eileen, Mick and unnamed guy find and confront Dagon over Kelly.  Since we see Dean putting Kelly in the Impala I'm guessing Dagon either gets away or Sam kills her.

In between we get scenes of Ketch/Mary and Lucifer/Crowley since Jared and Jensen seemed to have only filmed 3 days this ep.

Dean...probably ends up driving up after the situation is under control and thanks the BMoLs for looking out for Sam since he got lost (again).

The video shows Dean is there when Sam confronts Dagon.  These two frames show Dean in the green jacket and then Dean just on the edge of the scene as Sam is pointing a gun at Dagon.  The next frame (not included here) also shows BOTH Sam and Dean starting to 'crumple' as Dagon's 'force push' knocks them back. This is the shot that we see from behind in the 10th picture in the post above.  I'm not sure how you don't see that this is Dean in that picture.

While the bridge in the background certainly indicates its the same location as where Sam and Dean confront Dagon, I'm not sure what convinces you that Sam, Eileen, Mick and random are confronting Dagon over Kelly.

The video ALSO shows Dean telling Mick he doesn't "have to do this" and apparently pointing a gun at them and Eileen.  Sam is in this scene as well. And Mick crying out "yes I do".  So, although there is no static picture with Sam, Dean and Eileen being confronted by Mick, the video makes this clear. 

I put a red circle around Dean's fuzzy shoulder and the clip shows Dean speaking to Mick at this crisis moment.

I think it's reasonable to suggest that Mick's crisis is near the episode climax since the emphasis is on the "British Invasion" and Mick being told to kill the Winchesters is at least ONE of the plots.

Being a B-L it would appear we have a possible FOUR-FIVE different plots:
1) Dagon, Kelly & the boys
2) Mick, Sam, Eileen, and Random together
3) Mick being told to kill the Winchesters and confronting them later (this may be tied to #2)
4) Mary and Ketch
5) Crowley and Lucifer

So, per usual, it's an overly packed episode.  

And while it's also possible that Dean is missing from the #2 plot, I'm not sure that's as big of a deal as "Dean...probably ends up driving up after the situation is under control and thanks the BMoLs for looking out for Sam since he got lost (again)." 

In terms of sequence, I could see Mick being asked to provide the Colt AFTER Sam and Dean fail against Dagon.  In otherwords, the Dagon confrontation may occur early in the episode. I think it's also possible Eileen in the bunker is part of the coda because her hair is down.  In the video we see her confronting the demon dumping a body and her hair is pulled back.  When Mick is there, her hair is pulled back.  But in the bunker, with her hair down, suggests to me that this is after all the crises are over.  As for the Mary & Crowley scenes, like usual, I expect those to be randomly shoved into the episode to bring us up to speed on what these two characters are doing away from the Sam & Dean.

[SueB]

Under the "WTF was Michael's thinking" category... I'm posting a real doozey

WARNING:  REAL SCRIPT STUFF FROM EP12.22

Just zooming on my phone I can decipher the following from the script:

The bottom scene involves Dean, Mary (I THINK... she's in the stage notes) and Cas.

On my phone I can read

Dean saying to Cas: "You lied to me. You said my mom would be safe...(more I can't read)

Cas responding: On November 1st, 1983, the Yellow Eyed... (more stuff)

 

Immediate thoughts:
- This is a foiler or their f*cking with time again.  
- Cas seems different -- like S4 Cas

I need my 24 inch screen with photo edit software to read more.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Cas responding: On November 1st, 1983, the Yellow Eyed... (more stuff)

I can't read anything clearly but assuming it says what you're saying, then my thoughts are 

--Foilers. There are pink pages in between the white pages which I think are the actual production script pages. During the Rome con joint panel,Jensen was looking for a script on their phones to read from and Misha said , "make sure it's a blue revision you don't want the production draft.' which I think are the pink pages which cannot be copied.

 

--if its legit then maybe it's a look at an  timeline/alternate past, because the YED came for Sam on November 2, 1983 not  November 1, 1983.

So somehow maybe Cas is trying to stop everything by going back to the day before the YED showed up. Maybe it was a different YED on Nov 1 vs Nov 2.

-- if it's a legit oops spoiler maybe they are reviewing the script for continuity because November 1st , 1983 has never been an important date in the show.

Edited April 5, 2017 by catrox14

[ILoveReading]

So it seems its similar to s6 when they aired episode 21 and 22 on the same night.

[catrox14]

Yeah I think they are doing it make sure they get into May sweeps which ends on May 24 and to fill up the hour for Riverdale which has its finale on May 11.

If that script is legit I wonder if they are really going to do a reset to save Mary. Im thinking that maybe Mary can't get back into Heaven because Cas killed Billie. And no other reaper is willing to do whatever Billie was offering. I also wonder if Cas is being punished in Heaven for killing Billie.

[DittyDotDot]

55 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

-- if it's a legit oops spoiler maybe they are reviewing the script for continuity because November 1st , 1983 has never been an important date in the show.

I can't see anything clear enough either, but since it's not clear, perhaps it does indeed say November 2nd... ?

[Diane]

[ILoveReading]

So the Brits are ordering the death of other Hunters for not obeying.  Not sure why Dabb still thinks these are the good guys.  Hopefully tearing asunder means Sam and Dean end their relationship with them

Edited April 5, 2017 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

I looked at  the pic in Photoshop and I think it does read November 1 but it's not 100%. Whether it's Nov 1 or Nov 2, 1983 why is it there? I'm more curious and kind of scared about Dean apparently saying  to Cas "You lied to me. You said my mom would be okay.'   

So, if  it's legit spoiler then  a few additional specs.

--Conversation in the present: it's something  Cas knows NOW that he didn't before, maybe information gained during this Heaven trip.  For instance,  maybe it's a conversation about the events of "In the Beginning".  Like maybe Cas learned something new from Joshua that changes Cas' reasons for sending Dean to the past were not what Cas thought they were.

--Conversation in the present: There is opinion that Dean's trip was a closed loop and that it's his fault that YED came after Mary to begin with.  Perhaps, Dean and Cas had a conversation  once Dean was in the past wherein Dean questioned the whole time travel thing  and would it change things and maybe Cas assured him it would be okay. So Dean thinks it's Cas lying vs Cas just being wrong. 

-- Conversation in the present:  Cas tells Dean he can take Mary back to the past so she  never makes the deal with Azazel promising Dean nothing bad will happen to Mary but something goes wrong or Cas is given bad information and Mary is endangered anyway. 

-- Conversation in the present: Cas is telling Dean additional information about the night BEFORE the YED shows up to explain why Mary is possibly in danger.

[ILoveReading]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I looked at  the pic in Photoshop and I think it does read November 1 but it's not 100%. Whether it's Nov 1 or Nov 2, 1983 why is it there? I'm more curious and kind of scared about Dean apparently saying  to Cas "You lied to me. You said my mom would be okay.'   

So, if  it's legit spoiler then  a few additional specs.

--Conversation in the present: it's something  Cas knows NOW that he didn't before, maybe information gained during this Heaven trip.  For instance,  maybe it's a conversation about the events of "In the Beginning".  Like maybe Cas learned something new from Joshua that changes Cas' reasons for sending Dean to the past were not what Cas thought they were.

--Conversation in the present: There is opinion that Dean's trip was a closed loop and that it's his fault that YED came after Mary to begin with.  Perhaps, Dean and Cas had a conversation  once Dean was in the past wherein Dean questioned the whole time travel thing  and would it change things and maybe Cas assured him it would be okay. So Dean thinks it's Cas lying vs Cas just being wrong. 

-- Conversation in the present:  Cas tells Dean he can take Mary back to the past so she  never makes the deal with Azazel promising Dean nothing bad will happen to Mary but something goes wrong or Cas is given bad information and Mary is endangered anyway. 

-- Conversation in the present: Cas is telling Dean additional information about the night BEFORE the YED shows up to explain why Mary is possibly in danger.

Was it definitive that it was Cas he was talking too.  I saw something on Tumblr that Misha wasn't in this episode.  But that could be wrong. 

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

So the Brits are ordering the death of other Hunters for not obeying.  Not sure why Dabb still thinks these are the good guys.  Hopefully tearing asunder means Sam and Dean end their relationship with them

Didn't we all predict this when Sam and Mary were all, "GOOD" when "Chief" Hunter was taken away by Ketch to evidently be tortured? 

I figured Dean would be the target eventually no matter what.  So now it's Sam and Dean.

I'm guessing Mary will be in danger as some kind of extortion device to get them to join up. 

Alternately, maybe Ketch has actually fallen for Mary, so he'll squirrel her away to safety.  Who the hell knows.

And YAY it's another BL plotty mcplot fuck continuity, stupid death, inappropriate sexual references. Dean will probably ogle some chick when there is no reason for him to do so, he'll probably call someone a bitch, Cas may or may not be in the episode. I don't even know what they will do with Sam here TBH.  

Dabb and Singer recorded all these  producer's previews at the same time, given they are wearing the same clothes for I think ALL or MOST of them?  So they've known for quite some time the season arcs, which kind of runs contrary to the idea that they alter course during the season. OR their producer's previews don't match the ultimate outcome of the SL.

Oh and Bob Singer, fuck off man.  He's all "Well it's a journey for Sam" NO,  Sam was MIND RAPED in the scripts you and Dabb approved, Bob. That's not a journey, especially when YOU NEVER ADDRESSED IT AFTER IT HAPPENED.  WHY DO YOU DO THIS!? ARGGH. 

[companionenvy]

Based on that promo, I now REALLY hope that we find out the "old men" have a different agenda than simply ridding the world of the supernatural. Otherwise, ordering the executions of all hunters who won't join with them seems like a trip into mustache-twirling territory. 

Doing things like killing Magda and the soldiers at the black ops site is evil, but it is within the realm of rational behavior -- and behavior that someone who isn't quite at a Hitler McHitlerson level of evil could theoretically justify to oneself as being for the greater good. But...what is even the point of killing American hunters? It isn't like they are actively trying to take down the BMOL. 

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Was it definitive that it was Cas he was talking too.  I saw something on Tumblr that Misha wasn't in this episode.  But that could be wrong. 

Misha wouldn't necessarily have to have filmed for 12.22 for it to be something in 12.22. He could have filmed it during 12.19 and they use it in 12.22 for shock and awe or something.   

[catrox14]

Some possible spoilers from IBelieveInTheLittleTreeTopper for 12.20. 

I know we've been zeroing in on 12.19 since it's a rare Cas-centric episode but I'm wondering where 12.20 fits in the scheme of things.  10.20 and 11.20 were pretty big eps in s10 and 11

10.20 was Angel Heart which was a big Cas episode with Claire.
11.20 was Don't Call Me Shurley and HUGE for the entire series.

I wonder what 12.20 will be after 12.19

It's a Steve Yockey script who wrote Asa Fox and Lily Sunder eps, with Dick Speight directing. 

It has the Hunter twins and I guess their mother. Seems like it should be important to the boys and/or Cas given 10.20 and 11.20....

Then again 9.20 was Bloodlines....Hmmmm.  I dunno just looking for patterns here.
 

Quote

Episode 12x20  

Title: Twigs and Twine and Tasha Banes

Written by: Steve Yockey

Director:  Richard Speight Jr

Filming Dates: March 13  - 22

Airdate: May 4

Castiel? No. Crowley? No.

Guest stars: David Haydn Jones (Mr. Ketch), Kara Royster (Alicia Banes), Kendrick Sampson (Max Banes), Alvina August (Trisha Banes), Tim Carlson (Andy), Samantha Smith (Mary Winchester), Elizabeth Blackmore (Toni Bevell)

Other Spoilers/info (newest to oldest):

Jared’s daughter was born during filming.

Scenes with Mr Ketch take place in the British Men of Letters temporary base seen in 12x14 (and 12x17). J2 and the twins are not in these.

Looks like the witch twins may be back in this episode!

Steve Yockey and Meredith Glynn were in Vancouver/on set during filming

May be a Sam lite ep because Jared’s daughter is Due in March?

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Some possible spoilers from IBelieveInTheLittleTreeTopper for 12.20. 

I know we've been zeroing in on 12.19 since it's a rare Cas-centric episode but I'm wondering where 12.20 fits in the scheme of things.  10.20 and 11.20 were pretty big eps in s10 and 11

10.20 was Angel Heart which was a big Cas episode with Claire.
11.20 was Don't Call Me Shurley and HUGE for the entire series.

I wonder what 12.20 will be after 12.19

It's a Steve Yockey script who wrote Asa Fox and Lily Sunder eps, with Dick Speight directing. 

It has the Hunter twins and I guess their mother. Seems like it should be important to the boys and/or Cas given 10.20 and 11.20....

Then again 9.20 was Bloodlines....Hmmmm.  I dunno just looking for patterns here.
 

I wonder if the Brits are going after Max and Alicia since they're a witches.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I wonder if the Brits are going after Max and Alicia since they're a witches.

That's what I was thinking.  I just hope they don't die.  (RIP Wally!)

ETA: I wonder if they have to get Sketch's Ex involved again because Mick is either killed or turned to the Winchester's side after this week's ep. 

Edited April 5, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey

[Aeryn13]

Quote

But...what is even the point of killing American hunters? 

They want to play the Supernatural field the way they see fit - their methods, their obedient lackeys - so US hunters who don`t bow to that would be in the way. It makes sense to kill them in that case.

As for mustache-twirlingly evil, sure, but if the brothers are shocked by any of this stuff in the episode, I will roll my eyes. How did they not see this coming? The BMOL were not really shy about either their goals and their methods. It`s obvious where that eventually leads for people who don`t play ball. 

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

They want to play the Supernatural field the way they see fit - their methods, their obedient lackeys - so US hunters who don`t bow to that would be in the way. It makes sense to kill them in that case.

As for mustache-twirlingly evil, sure, but if the brothers are shocked by any of this stuff in the episode, I will roll my eyes. How did they not see this coming? The BMOL were not really shy about either their goals and their methods. It`s obvious where that eventually leads for people who don`t play ball. 

I don't think Dean would be shocked. I think Dean would be more like "I KNEW IT! I knew better than to trust these asshats" whereas I do think Sam might be shocked because, IMO, he's been trying to give them benefit of doubt. I don't understand WHY he's been doing that but well, I guess maybe for Sam the risk is worth it if he thinks it will eradicate most if not all the monsters. 

Barring that, maybe they would be shocked if they've been unwittingly subjected to being drugged by the BMoL little by little. Like maybe there is a drug filtered through the BMoL or in the coffee or tea that they drink at BMoLHQ. That maybe the scotch Dean and Ketch shared was tainted in some. Cause otherwise I got nuthin.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Barring that, maybe they would be shocked if they've been unwittingly subjected to being drugged by the BMoL little by little. Like maybe there is a drug filtered through the BMoL or in the coffee or tea that they drink at BMoLHQ. That maybe the scotch Dean and Ketch shared was tainted in some. Cause otherwise I got nuthin.

I don`t think so but it would be an explanation at least. Though in that case, I would probably call them on their stupidity in accepting food and drink from the shady BMOL. Instead now, I call them on their stupidity for actually working for them instead of trying to dig up all the dirt on them. Sure, Dean never trusted them and I even get why he threw his hands into the air and went along since the alternative to being played for a fool by the BMOL was apparently being played for a fool by his family.

But I wanted him to investigate. His instincts are usually right. He should have followed them more. And you don`t even need good instincts to tell the BMOL would be bad news. Wally, rest in peace, found that out during a lunch conversation. 

It`s all so disappointing when your characters are plot dumb. And the audience is way ahead of them. That makes this upcoming "betrayal" way less shocking and heartbreaking and more like when Azazel snarked at Jake about "curse your sudden and unexpected betrayal" that had been totally obvious. That makes me feel compelled to laugh AT the Winchesters along with the BMOL. And I can`t stand the BMOL.  

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

But I wanted him to investigate. His instincts are usually right. He should have followed them more. And you don`t even need good instincts to tell the BMOL would be bad news. Wally, rest in peace, found that out during a lunch conversation. 

This is the part that makes NO sense to me whatsoever.

The only thing I have is that Dean has been so upset about Mary's freezing him and Sam out that he's stopped being smart. I hate it too. Like he's smart on cases still of course, yet this one he's just blowing off?

So aggravating.

[companionenvy]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

They want to play the Supernatural field the way they see fit - their methods, their obedient lackeys - so US hunters who don`t bow to that would be in the way. It makes sense to kill them in that case.

I get that, but it is still pretty tortured reasoning, even by BMOL standards. Awful as it is, there's a logic to the notion that any supernatural creature is a threat that must be eliminated, or even the idea that if Sam and Dean Winchester are going to be any use to them, they can't have a team of feds on their tail.

But...Sam and Dean are a long way from declaring war on the BMOL, and the other hunters matter even less. Unless they are actively interfering with BMOL efforts to kill supernatural threats, it is hard to see why they'd be enough of an obstacle to be on a hit list, especially if the BMOL are still hoping to recruit more hunters to their cause. It isn't like the BMOL can't kill tons of vampires and werewolves without the permission of the Winchesters and the other American hunters. Even the Winchesters' policy of not killing certain monsters doesn't stop any other hunter coming along and finishing the job, as Ketch did with Magda. It doesn't leave the BMOL or society at large worse off than they would be if the Winchesters weren't dead; it simply --from the BMOL perspective -- makes them bad at their jobs. It would take some impressive mental gymnastics to go from there to execution.

So, there will have to be a lot more at stake than "these American boys are too soft" for me to think putting a hit on the Winchesters makes any tactical sense - unless the BMOL have a different agenda than they are claiming. 

[ILoveReading]

7 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

So, there will have to be a lot more at stake than "these American boys are too soft" for me to think putting a hit on the Winchesters makes any tactical sense - unless the BMOL have a different agenda than they are claiming. 

Its possible Mick went back to his bosses and informed them about the werewolf cure working, and mentioned that Sam and Dean might have a point in that no all monsters should be eliminated.  It's too fast but these writers usually have major pacing problems. 

Unless Dean and Sam stop Kelly Kline from being killed and that scene where she's saying all American Hunters must assimilate is at the end of the episode.

33 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

But I wanted him to investigate. His instincts are usually right. He should have followed them more. And you don`t even need good instincts to tell the BMOL would be bad news. Wally, rest in peace, found that out during a lunch conversation. 

There is one pic where it looks like Dean is sitting in the Impala.  I was hoping it would be Dean checking up on Claire or following one of the Brits.  They shouldn't trust that they'll leave her alone.

[catrox14]

I think what's gotten lost is the entire reason Lady McTorturesAlot captured Sam. and was going after Dean.  She was trying to  extract intel on the Hunter network. That was her entire goal.  That tells me that she wasn't actually rogue at all. She was getting the info her superiors wanted. And Sam would not give up those names.  It seems to me that would still be the primary goal for the BMoL with the Winchesters. They want them to either recruit the other Hunters for sheer numbers or they them to give up names. It's like it's a pyramid scheme with the BMoL.

IMO, if the BMoL put a hit out on the Winchesters it's because there is some other big move that requires the  Winchesters and if the Winchesters don't cooperate then they'll actually become dangerous to the other plans, so it's time to eliminate them.  

[Aeryn13]

Quote

So, there will have to be a lot more at stake than "these American boys are too soft" for me to think putting a hit on the Winchesters makes any tactical sense - unless the BMOL have a different agenda than they are claiming. 

I don`t think this is so much a tactical move - though it would serve as a reminder why they are to be obeyed or else, if people like Mick step out of line and start thinking for themselves, the horror - as being done on principle. They feel so superior, they want underlings or noone at all. It might not be of any great benefit right now to kill the Winchesters but it also costs them nothing. So they can afford to do it just for the sheer pleasure of gloating about it.

Granted, there might also be a revelation of their higher-ups being monsters/demons/evil and have an altogether different agenda. But the attitude that woman showed in the clip makes it palatable to order a hit for nothing else than snobby superiority. Apparently, they think hunters - and freelancers at that - are barely a step above monsters. And they certainly have no qualms exterminating the latter.  

[catrox14]

So the Ibelieveinthelittletreetopper  has this analysis of that script page.

Interesting

http://ibelieveinthelittletreetopper.tumblr.com/post/159211011928/dean-says-something-to-mary-about-lying-and

 

Quote

Jim Michaels tweeted a picture where we can see a page of the script.

Here’s what I can make out of Dean’s lines to Mary:

“You lied to me. You said you’d keep me safe but the deal you made with Azazel - you saved Dad’s life but there was a catch.” 

[Tight on Mary, Dean is getting to her]

“On November 2, 1983, Yellow Eyes Waltzed right into Sam’s room, thanks to your deal. After that…”

[Aeryn13]

Dean is saying that to Mary? None of this is news to her. She knows what happened. That makes very little sense. 

[ILoveReading]

Not sure if these mean anything but its Adam and David's response to the Producer Preview

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Dean is saying that to Mary? None of this is news to her. She knows what happened. That makes very little sense. 

Unless Mary doesn't actually remember the deal. She remembered dying that night but maybe she doesn't remember the deal. she actually made. Or somehow maybe when Amara resurrected her she took that memory away.

I've always thought it was peculiar that she and the boys never discussed the deal. There would be nothing in John's journal because I don't think he ever knew she made the deal, he only knew that the YED came for Sam and killed Mary. 

[Wayward Son]

This is a case of perfect timing as I happened to rewatch Mamma Mia this morning. The episode doesn't explicitly reference the deal, but it hints heavily Mary is aware of her culpability. 

 

Quote

MARY: And when we do find Sam... how am I gonna face him? 

DEAN: What do you mean? 

MARY: That yellow-eyed thing would never have come for him that night if I... I started all of this.

I took it as she was referring to the fact it was her deal that gave yellow eyes permission to come to their house that night!

 

I'll be amused if they retcon it so she doesn't know about the deal since both episodes were written by the nepotism duo haha

Edited April 5, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Unless Mary doesn't actually remember the deal. 

Didn`t she refer to it in either the Season Opener or episode 2? Just in passing but I think she does remember it.

This scene snippet reads as if Dean hits Mary with some truths she had been previously unaware of. He has been really angry at her before this Season so this seems to come out of nowhere.  

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

Didn`t she refer to it in either the Season Opener or episode 2? Just in passing but I think she does remember it.

This scene snippet reads as if Dean hits Mary with some truths she had been previously unaware of. He has been really angry at her before this Season so this seems to come out of nowhere.  

If Dean is talking about that night, I hope its about how that deal also affected him, something Mary seems oblivious too.  

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

This is a case of perfect timing as I happened to rewatch Mamma Mia this morning. The episode doesn't explicitly reference the deal, but it hints heavily Mary is aware of her culpability. 

 

I took it as she was referring to the fact it was her deal that gave yellow eyes permission to come to their house that night!

Ah, I forgot about that. She maybe have remembered giving permission but she may not have known that the YED was there for Sam until later.  That's where HOME mucks with this because Mary told Sam she was sorry, saved them and then burned up. So whatever she is in Heaven maybe she only knows that her deal set John on a path of finding the YED but not realizing it meant that her deal was for Sam's life essentially. 

What is curious to me though is why Dean said she would protect him from Azazel, because I don't remember that being a thing at all from "In the Beginning". 

Well then maybe that page is a foiler after all. LOL

[SueB]

6 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

So the Brits are ordering the death of other Hunters for not obeying.  Not sure why Dabb still thinks these are the good guys.  Hopefully tearing asunder means Sam and Dean end their relationship with them

How did you get Dabb thinks the BMoL are good guys after that preview?  He's giving Mick Davies some potential credit for starting to admire the boys.  That's not a declaration of BMoL are good guys.

And Bottom Line, this is Dabb's story.  Dabb's CLEARLY setting them up as the villain.  You can't order the death of your two main characters and be considered good guys. The Brit gal is practicing evil villain monologuing for pity's sake. 

On the script.... I'll have a better view on my home computer late tomorrow night.  No help til then.

[rue721]

6 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Based on that promo, I now REALLY hope that we find out the "old men" have a different agenda than simply ridding the world of the supernatural.

 

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I think what's gotten lost is the entire reason Lady McTorturesAlot captured Sam. and was going after Dean.  She was trying to  extract intel on the Hunter network. That was her entire goal.  That tells me that she wasn't actually rogue at all. She was getting the info her superiors wanted.

Maybe their primary goal has been to exterminate the hunters, not the monsters?

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

How did you get Dabb thinks the BMoL are good guys after that preview?  He's giving Mick Davies some potential credit for starting to admire the boys.  That's not a declaration of BMoL are good guys

I honestly don't know which way this might go.

I'm not entirely convinced that Dabb is setting them up for TOTAL villainy. I say this because Sam has chosen to work with them. If the Good Guy goes to work for them, isn't that kind of giving them some kind of tacit approval?

Thus far there is no indication that Sam is running a long game of some kind. I truly cannot find any logical character reason for Sam working with them. Not even his love for Mary. There is no world ending calamity like the Darkness, that is compelling Sam to work for the very people who literally physically, mentally, emotionally and sexually tortured him. Like NONE. I don't care that Ketch CLAIMS Lady PleaseWalkIntoAFire was a rogue actor, she was obviously a part of the organization or Mick wouldn't have shown up at the torture site. And Ketch has a personal  reason to besmirch her as being outside them because they 'dated' and clearly it did not go well, considering she called him a psychopath.

If Sam, our hero, who suffered greatly at their hands, opts in, the doesn't that KIND OF imply that they really aren't that bad? Or is it saying something else about Sam that I don't get? 

Edited April 6, 2017 by catrox14

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

If Dean is talking about that night, I hope its about how that deal also affected him, something Mary seems oblivious too.  

What do you mean, Also?  If the reading of that page is correct, then what Dean is saying there is all about how it affected him: "You lied to me. You said you’d keep me safe but the deal you made with Azazel - you saved Dad’s life but there was a catch.”  Or maybe you missed that line?

20 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

If Sam, our hero, who suffered greatly at their hands, opts in,

Dean, our hero, also opted in.  Yes, it was initially to appease Sam and Mary, but the bottom line is he still opted in.  

Why are people trying to make this a Sam vs. Dean thing when it is obviously going to be a Winchesters vs. HMSS thing?  

[ILoveReading]

8 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

What do you mean, Also?  If the reading of that page is correct, then what Dean is saying there is all about how it affected him: "You lied to me. You said you’d keep me safe but the deal you made with Azazel - you saved Dad’s life but there was a catch.”  Or maybe you missed that line?

?  

No, I didn't miss that line, and its follow up line, not sure if you saw this one

Quote

“On November 2, 1983, Yellow Eyes Waltzed right into Sam’s room, thanks to your deal. After that…”

Dean could easily turn the conversation to what happened to Sam and Sam alone  I find the show tends to gloss over things that happen to Dean, as no big deal or ignore them all together.   When I say I want Dean talk about how he was effected I want him to tell Mary about he was forced to grow up over night, how he was suddenly responsible for Sam while their father became obsessed.  Mary knows her deal effected Sam but she's never acknowledged that Dean suffered because of it too, and I want Dean to be able to express this.

I've always wanted Dean to have that 'Sacrifice' moment where he gets to unload 30+ years of grief, pain and guilt and then not apologize for saying it.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

12 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Dean could easily turn the conversation to what happened to Sam and Sam alone

He could just as easily not.  

[SueB]

11 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I've always wanted Dean to have that 'Sacrifice' moment where he gets to unload 30+ years of grief, pain and guilt and then not apologize for saying it.

Didn't he do that at the start of The Raid?  I personally found it VERY cathartic.  Now if your issue is that he apologized for saying he wanted Mary to just 'be their mother' which SHE interpreted as 'just (i.e. ONLY) be their mother', then I don't know if you'll get that.  I agree that apology was not warranted but he was making peace. M'kay.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

14 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I find the show tends to gloss over things that happen to Dean, as no big deal or ignore them all together.

Like when Dean said to Mary, "I never had a childhood." ?  That was about him and him alone.  Either one of us, or both of us could be wrong, but I really don't see your scenario happening after that line this season.  

[catrox14]

37 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Dean, our hero, also opted in.  Yes, it was initially to appease Sam and Mary, but the bottom line is he still opted in.  

Why are people trying to make this a Sam vs. Dean thing when it is obviously going to be a Winchesters vs. HMSS thing?  

My comment was about Sam and SAM ALONE because Sam is the character  who was grievously harmed by the BMoL and still chose to work for them.  How is that Sam vs Dean wank when I LITERALLY never mentioned Dean because Dean wasn't the character who was tortured and wasn't the character I was discussing?

It really is possible to actually discuss one brother or the other separate from the other brother without it being Sam Vs Dean.

If Dean had been the one being tortured and had opted in after suffering the same torment as Sam, I would literally be asking the same question but he wasn't. So again how is that Sam vs Dean? 

Edited April 6, 2017 by catrox14

[ILoveReading]

8 minutes ago, SueB said:

Didn't he do that at the start of The Raid?  I personally found it VERY cathartic.  Now if your issue is that he apologized for saying he wanted Mary to just 'be their mother' which SHE interpreted as 'just (i.e. ONLY) be their mother', then I don't know if you'll get that.  I agree that apology was not warranted but he was making peace. M'kay.

No, the end ruined the opening speech for me.    What's the point of speaking your mind if your just going to take it back.  We can agree to disagree on this.

 

10 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

He could just as easily not.  

Which is what I said in my original post that I hope he doesn't.

 

8 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Like when Dean said to Mary, "I never had a childhood." ?  That was about him and him alone.  Either one of us, or both of us could be wrong, but I really don't see your scenario happening after that line this season.  

But it was ignored with Mary focusing on Dean's "be a mom line." and Dean later apologizing and basically saying that he was upset for her not singing hey jude and making soup. The "I never was a child" seemed to be lost on Mary.   They have a good opening if that line is accurate I was just expressing hope they would take it. 

Edited April 6, 2017 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, SueB said:

Didn't he do that at the start of The Raid?  I personally found it VERY cathartic.  Now if your issue is that he apologized for saying he wanted Mary to just 'be their mother' which SHE interpreted as 'just (i.e. ONLY) be their mother', then I don't know if you'll get that.  I agree that apology was not warranted but he was making peace. M'kay.

That wasn't enough carthasis for me. It was more like Catharsis Interruptus, for this viewer, since he ended up apologizing and "making peace" when it should have been Mary doing that.