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Spoilers With Speculation

SueB

By SueB
in Supernatural

ohjoy
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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PeterKahlke
PeterKahlke

NEXT ON SUPERNATURAL Sam and Dean search for the yellow-eyed thing that killed their mom.

devlin
devlin

I don’t care who JA is going to be playing. I could seriously watch this guy read the phone book and be completely enthralled. I am just looking forward to some powerhouse acting full of nuances by wh

gonzosgirrl
gonzosgirrl

So, so over it. You're a big boy - if you don't agree, put up or shut your judgey piehole.

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SueB

SueB

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"... break your mother's back"?????? I don't think Mary is in tonight's episode.  Although Dabb's little hints have been less than stellar... so .... this is one I'll have to look at AFTER the episode.

I just REALLY want Sam and Dean, when asked "Do you know God?" to FOR ONCE say "Yes, in fact we do.  He eats bacon, has family issues, and would think you guys are dicks."

That's NOT going to happen, BTW.  It's just a fantasy.

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goldy

goldy

(edited)
26 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

Since this is the episode about the ultra-religious family, I assumed it was more about that mother, not Mary.

Yeah, I agree.  One of the promotional pics that were posted for this episode is also have the mother from tonight's episode holding what looks like a whip.

SN1204b_0116b.jpg

But maybe, since this episode is about an unusual family and what looks like a dysfunctional mother, they'll try and connect it to what the boys have happening with Mary??

Edited by goldy
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rue721

rue721

2 minutes ago, goldy said:

Yeah, I agree.  One of the promotional pics that were posted for this episode is also have the mother from tonight's episode holding what looks like a whip.

SN1204b_0116b.jpg

But maybe, since this episode is about  what looks like a dysfunctional family and a dysfunctional mother, they'll try and connected it to what the boys have happening with Mary??

Yeah, I think probably (to both those ideas).

I think the lesson is pretty likely to be about how destructive having a(n obsessive, too-involved) mom around can be, given that they're upset right now about their mom leaving/them not having one really.

They'll probably learn to appreciate that Mary didn't take her issues out on them or something.

This sort of reminds me of that S1 episode, Nightmare, in that I figure that they're going to run into a truly awful family and it's going to make them appreciate theirs (and each other) more.

Just my guess.

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goldy

goldy

Talented young star Gig Morton chats guest role on ‘Supernatural’

http://us.blastingnews.com/showbiz-tv/2016/09/talented-young-star-gig-morton-chats-guest-role-on-supernatural-001110073.html

 

Quote

Colleen Bement: You just filmed a guest spot on CW's huge show 'Supernatural'. I know you can't say too much about it. Let me just ask you two questions. 1.) Can you tell my readers what it was like being on the set? 2.) Will 'Supernatural' fans love or "love to hate" your character?

Gig Morton: To answer your first question, being on set of ‘Supernatural’ was an amazing experience. Everyone, including the crew, was always in a great mood and entertaining to be around. Both Jared and Jensen are not only extraordinarily nice, but also really fun to work with. To answer your second question I don’t think fans will either love or love to hate my character per se, but rather have compassion for him. 

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SueB

SueB

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1 hour ago, Binns said:

The preview for next week...died laughing at Dean with the grenade launcher. JA brings that up all the time at cons..."Why don't they use the damn grenade launcher?!?"

Me too. And I love Sam's "no".  Like this was the 79th time Dean tried for the launcher.

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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

7 hours ago, Binns said:

The preview for next week...died laughing at Dean with the grenade launcher. JA brings that up all the time at cons..."Why don't they use the damn grenade launcher?!?"

WEEEEE!!! Now, they just need to find a use for those throwing stars! ;)

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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

Dean should simply take it if he wants to. He is the only one who should get a say in what weapon he wants to take to a fight. Screw everyone else. They can decide the same in return. For their own weaponry, that is. 

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Diane

Diane

39 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Dean should simply take it if he wants to. He is the only one who should get a say in what weapon he wants to take to a fight. Screw everyone else. They can decide the same in return. For their own weaponry, that is. 

Oh good grief!

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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

This is where I meant to post.  Bah!

1 hour ago, Demented Daisy said:

Harry Potter speculation ahead.  Fair warning.  Feel free to skip.  :-)

While skimming this week's episode thread (because, honestly, I can't read the Sam/Dean arguments any more), I noticed, for the first time, that Lady Toni's last name is Bevell.  It reminded me of the Peverell brothers and the origin of the Deathly Hallows.

Of course, Potterphiles will already be familiar with the story, and it doesn't have much bearing here -- except one was the "master of Death", hmmm....  Sorry.  As I was saying, I'll go ahead and skip their story.  Suffice to say, they were an old, powerful family that eventually died out (in the male line, anyway).

Harry Potter is a descendent of Ignotus Peverell.  It makes me wonder about Lady Toni's son.  We must have been shown him for a reason.  Theoretically. This show has, from time to time, abandoned stories that didn't work.  But I digress.

Harry's aunt Petunia was not a witch, though his mother was.  Lily's family were Muggles, non-magical people.  Petunia was very jealous of Lily and became vociferously anti-magic.  When Harry's parents died, she did everything she could to keep Harry from developing any magical abilities.  Her fear and anger and hatred was scary at times.

What if Lady Toni comes from a family of witches (remember Rowena said some witches are born, not made) but had no magical ability herself?  (A squib, in other words.)  What if she joined the Men of Letters to learn the magic that came so easily to her family?  She's awfully fanatical about the Winchesters.  She has a lot of anger, for some reason.

And what if her son starts exhibiting magical abilities?  What if the Men of Letters turn against her son?

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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

26 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

Harry Potter speculation ahead.  Fair warning.  Feel free to skip.  :-)

While skimming this week's episode thread (because, honestly, I can't read the Sam/Dean arguments any more), I noticed, for the first time, that Lady Toni's last name is Bevell.  It reminded me of the Peverell brothers and the origin of the Deathly Hallows.

Of course, Potterphiles will already be familiar with the story, and it doesn't have much bearing here -- except one was the "master of Death", hmmm....  Sorry.  As I was saying, I'll go ahead and skip their story.  Suffice to say, they were an old, powerful family that eventually died out (in the male line, anyway).

Harry Potter is a descendent of Ignotus Peverell.  It makes me wonder about Lady Toni's son.  We must have been shown him for a reason.  Theoretically. This show has, from time to time, abandoned stories that didn't work.  But I digress.

Harry's aunt Petunia was not a witch, though his mother was.  Lily's family were Muggles, non-magical people.  Petunia was very jealous of Lily and became vociferously anti-magic.  When Harry's parents died, she did everything she could to keep Harry from developing any magical abilities.  Her fear and anger and hatred was scary at times.

What if Lady Toni comes from a family of witches (remember Rowena said some witches are born, not made) but had no magical ability herself?  (A squib, in other words.)  What if she joined the Men of Letters to learn the magic that came so easily to her family?  She's awfully fanatical about the Winchesters.  She has a lot of anger, for some reason.

And what if her son starts exhibiting magical abilities?  What if the Men of Letters turn against her son?

Oh, now there are some interesting possibilities here. I was working on the assumption that Lady Toni's raison d'etre was probably just that someone she loved ever so much, like the kid's father or her parents, was killed by something supernatural--that is the show's general raison d'etre, anyway--but this is very interesting and I think somewhat novel for the show.

10 minutes ago, SueB said:

IA. I think she's hiding something.  I just struggle for redemption after what she put Sam through. 

I'm not banking on redemption for her, nor do I want it. I think she's the big bad, myself.

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goldy

goldy

Quote

And what if her son starts exhibiting magical abilities?  What if the Men of Letters turn against her son?

I think that her son is obviously very important to her and that she's a very devoted mother (it's all about mothers this season isn't it?)  and he is probably one of the reasons she's such an extremes, she's thinking about her son and trying to make the world a better place for him by killing monsters. 

I also think that her son would be the reason she'll eventually leave the BMoL and join Sam and Dean "team" and become more moderate. I think that like you said; her son will develop some kind of supernatural ability and that would be enough for the BMoL or  Mr. Ketch to kill him like they did Magda. Another possible scenario could be that her son would die and Cas will bring him back to life and that too would be enough for the BMoL/Ketch  to consider him supernatural and wanting him dead.

Speaking of  Mr. Ketch; I have this crazy speculation that he might be Crowley's son Gavin. I know he's coming back this year but we havn't seen any build up for that storyline. Granted, it is possible that he'll come back much later in the season and this is why we didn't see any build up so far...I don't know, just a thought...
 

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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

3 minutes ago, goldy said:

I also think that her son would be the reason she'll eventually leave the BMoL and join Sam and Dean "team" and become more moderate.

I keep seeing people saying they think she'll switch sides, but I'm not sure what I'm missing here. I get the distinct impression she dug her heels in deeper after her encounter with the Winchesters and won't ever be able to see their side of it. I'm also thinking she's going to be a sort of counterpoint to Mary, so I'm not sure she'll be switching sides. It could happen, but I'm not sure I see it yet?

6 minutes ago, goldy said:

Speaking of  Mr. Ketch; I have this crazy speculation that he might be Crowley's son Gavin. I know he's coming back this year but we havn't seen any build up for that storyline. Granted, it is possible that he'll come back much later in the season and this is why we didn't see any build up so far...I don't know, just a thought...

Oh, speaking of Gavin, I was working on the assumption Lucifer would nab him and try to use him as leverage of some sort...maybe even try to use him as a vessel, but perhaps he's the compromising agent in the US? It could be that he just went around blabbing shit after Crowley let him go?

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goldy

goldy

(edited)
30 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I keep seeing people saying they think she'll switch sides, but I'm not sure what I'm missing here. I get the distinct impression she dug her heels in deeper after her encounter with the Winchesters and won't ever be able to see their side of it. I'm also thinking she's going to be a sort of counterpoint to Mary, so I'm not sure she'll be switching sides. It could happen, but I'm not sure I see it yet?

 

The main reason I think she'll redeem herself is because the show made it a point to show us that while she was HORRIBLE in the way she tortured Sam (and later Dean too) she also has more human sides to her; her son is the main clue and another clue for me was the way she disapproved of Mr. Ketch.

Edited by goldy
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MysteryGuest

MysteryGuest

Isn't it getting a bit old to keep bringing Crowley's son back to use as leverage?  That's been done multiple times already.  If they must bring him back again, at least give him some other purpose.  

As much as I don't want it to happen, I totally see Toni coming to the boys for help in the end, and her son is the obvious reason why.  She's afraid of Ketch, so there has to be some history there.  A son who has supernatural powers would be an interesting twist, but you'd think the BMOL would have discovered that already.

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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

39 minutes ago, goldy said:

The main reason I think she'll redeem herself is because the show made it a point to show us that while she was HORRIBLE in the way she tortured Sam (and later Dean too) she also has more human sides to her; her son is the main clue and another clue for me was the way she disapproved of Mr. Ketch.

See, I think they set it up for Mr. Ketch to not be the psychopath she said. It seems to me, pretty much everything Lady Toni thinks, is turning out to not be quite right. I think the show is working on the theme of "You can know someone or something, but still not know them at all." So, I just wonder if at some point the Winchesters will have to save Mr. Ketch's ass and he'll see them in a different light?

I dunno. But, I think the reason they made Lady Toni so "horrible" is because she's a fanatical who can't see the whole picture .I believe I remember Dabb saying she's a part of a group of extremists working within the MoL. I'm just not sure she'll ever be able to see the whole picture. 

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Dobian

Dobian

(edited)

Adding to the Harry Potter references, if Lady Tonibaloney went to Hogwarts, of course she would have been a Slytherin.  I don't care if she redeems herself, she has already been portrayed not as a normal person out for revenge or whatever, but a sick sociopath.   I'm sure she experimented on small animals as a kid.

I imagine Mr. Ketch as Agent 47.  I can see the bar code on the back of his head already.

Edited by Dobian
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goldy

goldy

(edited)
44 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

If she does come back, I sincerely hope that it's not another case of Sam just overlooking everything she's done to him personally, and accepting her as a part of the team.

If she truly redeem herself and become a real ally to Sam and Dean I have absolutely no problem if Sam (or Dean for that matter, because she tortured him too) will overlook everything she's done to them. 

See, the way I see it, she thought she was doing the right thing, and who knows better than anyone how good intention often lead us to do bad things? Sam was thinking he was doing the right thing when he drank demon blood and he ended up freeing Lucifer. And Dean was thinking he was doing the right thing by letting Godreal possess Sam and he ended up with Godreal killing Kevin.

 

40 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

See, I think they set it up for Mr. Ketch to not be the psychopath she said. It seems to me, pretty much everything Lady Toni thinks, is turning out to not be quite right. I think the show is working on the theme of "You can know someone or something, but still not know them at all." So, I just wonder if at some point the Winchesters will have to save Mr. Ketch's ass and he'll see them in a different light?

I dunno. But, I think the reason they made Lady Toni so "horrible" is because she's a fanatical who can't see the whole picture .I believe I remember Dabb saying she's a part of a group of extremists working within the MoL. I'm just not sure she'll ever be able to see the whole picture. 

Maybe you're right. I don't rule anything out. I guess we'll have to wait and see :)

Edited by goldy
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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

(edited)
5 minutes ago, goldy said:

See, the way I see it, she thought she was doing the right thing

Oh, I definitely think she thinks she's doing the right thing. Most villains think they're the hero, though.

Edited by DittyDotDot
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goldy

goldy

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

Oh, I definitely think she thinks she's doing the right thing. All villains think they're the hero, though.

And sometimes the heroes act like villains ;)

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MysteryGuest

MysteryGuest

I think ultimately the BMOL will be made to realize that by not allowing for any gray area in their systematic determination to kill off every evil thing, they have become the very monsters they hate.  Mr. Ketch is an assassin, nothing more.  A cold-blooded killer.  Since they went to the trouble to introduce us to Toni's son, I have to believe he's going to play a role in how this story ends.

Lady Toni is misguided, but probably not irredeemable.  She obviously loves her son, so they've shown us her humanity.  I don't see it as a very difficult task to turn her thinking around, especially if her son is threatened.

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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

11 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I think ultimately the BMOL will be made to realize that by not allowing for any gray area in their systematic determination to kill off every evil thing, they have become the very monsters they hate.  Mr. Ketch is an assassin, nothing more.  A cold-blooded killer.  Since they went to the trouble to introduce us to Toni's son, I have to believe he's going to play a role in how this story ends.

Lady Toni is misguided, but probably not irredeemable.  She obviously loves her son, so they've shown us her humanity.  I don't see it as a very difficult task to turn her thinking around, especially if her son is threatened.

I agree it wouldn't be that hard, but I'm not convinced that's what they're doing is all. And, I agree the BMoL will be made to realize there is lots of gray out there, but I think the Lady Toni will stand outside the general BMoL. She has so far. She wasn't ordered to do anything with Sam and Dean, she was ordered to make contacts. She tortured Sam all on her own volition. 

The thing about Mr. Ketch is, I don't know that he's just simply an assassin. I think he's following orders right now and, for whatever reason, he thinks those orders are right and valid. He's not acting on his own volition, though, Lady Toni is. So, I actually think it will be far easier to "redeem" Mr. Ketch than it is for Lady Toni.

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MysteryGuest

MysteryGuest

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

The thing about Mr. Ketch is, I don't know that he's just simply an assassin. I think he's following orders right now and, for whatever reason, he thinks those orders are right and valid. He's not acting on his own volition, though, Lady Toni is. So, I actually think it will be far easier to "redeem" Mr. Ketch than it is for Lady Toni.

Ketch is following orders, but that's what most assassins do.  They're called in to do the dirty jobs, and they do them with no hesitation, no emotion.  That to me is cold-blooded.  Lady Toni was definitely acting alone, but we haven't yet been given her motivation.  I'm going to guess that it will be something that will make her at least a bit more sympathetic to us and the Winchesters.  

We've seen her show fear a few times, and even concern when she thought that Sam had cut his own throat.  And it didn't appear to be just because he'd be of no further use to her dead.  She's doing what she has to do (or at least what she thinks she has to do), but she doesn't seem completely in her comfort zone to me.

It's all speculation at this point, so I guess we'll have to wait to see what happens next.

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Dobian

Dobian

8 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

Lady Toni is misguided, but probably not irredeemable.  She obviously loves her son, so they've shown us her humanity.  I don't see it as a very difficult task to turn her thinking around, especially if her son is threatened.

There's misguided and there's sadistic.  To relish in the things she was doing to Sam you're at Nazi SS level.  You really have to have the empathy part of your brain shut off to be able to engage in that stuff.  Now if they portrayed her as being personally tortured by what she was doing to Sam, not wanting to do what she was doing, then I could buy the redemption arc.  But this is your basic hack television writing, where they first portray someone as the shallow, uber-evil villain so that they're scary and you hate them, and then we learn several episodes later that their mom and their pet dog are being held prisoner and being slowly poisoned to death, and all of a sudden they 180 into this sad little victim just trying save their loved ones.  That doesn't work with me.  If you're going to do the redemption thing, then you need to write that consistently from the beginning.  Otherwise just go full-on evil and be done with it.

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RulerofallIsurvey

RulerofallIsurvey

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Oh, no Lady McTorturerPleaseShootHerInTheFace,Dean is getting no redemption from me. She can die a miserable painful death.

I really agree with this.  Except that I hope Sam is the one to shoot her in the face, since he's the one she actually tortured.  

And yeah...I'm vindictive like that.  ;) 

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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

1 hour ago, Dobian said:

There's misguided and there's sadistic.  To relish in the things she was doing to Sam you're at Nazi SS level.  You really have to have the empathy part of your brain shut off to be able to engage in that stuff.  Now if they portrayed her as being personally tortured by what she was doing to Sam, not wanting to do what she was doing, then I could buy the redemption arc.  But this is your basic hack television writing, where they first portray someone as the shallow, uber-evil villain so that they're scary and you hate them, and then we learn several episodes later that their mom and their pet dog are being held prisoner and being slowly poisoned to death, and all of a sudden they 180 into this sad little victim just trying save their loved ones.  That doesn't work with me.  If you're going to do the redemption thing, then you need to write that consistently from the beginning.  Otherwise just go full-on evil and be done with it.

Exactly!

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MysteryGuest

MysteryGuest

2 hours ago, Dobian said:

There's misguided and there's sadistic.  To relish in the things she was doing to Sam you're at Nazi SS level.  You really have to have the empathy part of your brain shut off to be able to engage in that stuff.  Now if they portrayed her as being personally tortured by what she was doing to Sam, not wanting to do what she was doing, then I could buy the redemption arc.  But this is your basic hack television writing, where they first portray someone as the shallow, uber-evil villain so that they're scary and you hate them, and then we learn several episodes later that their mom and their pet dog are being held prisoner and being slowly poisoned to death, and all of a sudden they 180 into this sad little victim just trying save their loved ones.  That doesn't work with me.  If you're going to do the redemption thing, then you need to write that consistently from the beginning.  Otherwise just go full-on evil and be done with it.

I didn't say it was good writing.  I just think that's how they're going to go with this one.  I think if she were going to remain the baddest of the bad guys, they wouldn't have introduced us to Ketch, and they wouldn't have shown that she's afraid of him.  They also wouldn't have shown us her adorable little boy.  I think they're going to give us some excuse for why she suddenly went rogue, and we're going to be expected to accept that explanation.  Sam and Dean wouldn't let a little torture keep them from helping her, if she's truly shown to have a reason for what she did.

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catrox14

catrox14

20 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I really agree with this.  Except that I hope Sam is the one to shoot her in the face, since he's the one she actually tortured.

I was thinking about "I will stab you in your face" motif that Dean usually throws out. Also, the opposite brother killing the other brother's tormentor thing. Dean kills Azazel. Sam kills Alastair

 

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goldy

goldy

Well, it looks like Gavin is not Mr. Kaetch. This is the actor plaing him.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0427869/

 

8 hours ago, Dobian said:

There's misguided and there's sadistic.  To relish in the things she was doing to Sam you're at Nazi SS level.  You really have to have the empathy part of your brain shut off to be able to engage in that stuff. 

I get what you're saying but you have to remember that from what she knows about them they are, in her eyes, no better than any monster out there. They're human, yes, but (in her mind) they ruin the world, they befriend monsters and set them free on the world. Of curse she's totally wrong about them, but the way she sees them NOW, is the same way Sam and/or Dean will see a demon that they torturer, like it doesn't deserve mercy or compassion.

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