Spoilers With Speculation

[Diane]

After rewatching the interview I would again say my interpretation is its a one off, but who knows.

[DittyDotDot]

Guys, after watching that video of Dabb, it gives me great hope about the season. I especially liked how he said the show would be more earth-based and grounded this season. I seriously like the guy in interviews. Which means...I'm so screwed! ;)

Anyway, sounds like it'll take two episodes to wrap up S11 and get us going on S12 because he said episode 3 will be a ghost story; episode 4 they're doing something with psychics; episode 5 is the Hitler episode; and episode 6 is a hunter's wake episode. Sounds like episodes 3-6 are standalones and I bet they get back to the MoL and the mythology on episode 7.

I also pinged on his comment that Lady WhatsHerName does not represent the whole British MoL, but is part of a group of extremists within the organization. That makes much more sense as to why she would be more hands on than what we've seen previously of the MoL. 

Sounds like they're being cautious not to make Mary's storyline antagonistic. As long as they don't use the mid-season finale to kill her off--again--I think I kinda might, maybe, sort of, somewhat...be on board.

So screwed! ;)

[goldy]

Well, if you liked that interview, maybe you'll like this one too. Also from SDCC:

The most interesting part, I thought, was when he get asked if they're gonna go back and look at why Mary died and he says that they already explored that in the time traveling episodes in the past and that the more interesting thing for them is exploring what has she been doing that we haven't seen.

The story always been that once Mary settled down and married John, she stopped hunting, but we're gonna found out maybe that's not the whole story.

[DittyDotDot]

Thanks @goldy, that was also interesting. I really didn't delve into much of the Comic Con stuff this year. Just watched the main panel, but now considering I might want to watch a few of them. Anyway, despite Dabb being a fast fast-talker, he makes a lot of sense. Seriously, seriously screwed!

Anyway, that's interesting about Mary, I've always been curious about Mary and John's early married life. I'm not generally into fan fiction--not because there's anything wrong with that, I just prefer to have only the one version of the show running around my head at a time--but I ran across one when I first started watching the show that was about Mary at this time. Although she wasn't actively hunting anymore, she hadn't forgotten her hunter instincts entirely. It was a nice little character piece and made me think there could be some very interesting story there.

In general, I'm far less apprehensive about the show this season than I have been in years, despite not really finding the MoL or more mommy issues all that interesting. Is that weird? ;)

[Demented Daisy]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Is that weird?

Weird is what we do.  ;-)

[MysteryGuest]

I'm definitely down for more MOTW episodes this season.  Smaller arcs, less angels and demons...that works for me.  If we have to have Mary back as a regular or semi-regular, then exploring her past could be interesting.  Not only what she may have done after her marriage, but where was she after her death?  She wasn't in heaven, and there's no reason to assume she was in hell, so where does that leave her?  

We've pretty much gotten past stressing over Sam and Dean's fates, since they aren't dying until the show ends, if then.  But adding Mary does give the writers a way to ramp up the angst in a natural way, since we truly don't know whether they will kill her off, or not.  It could make things more interesting.

I am determined to remain optimistic until we see where they go with the show this year.

[Hana Chan]

Not going to lie... I am still rather dubious about bringing Mary back into the storyline but if it's handled right, it could be an interesting development. While both Sam and Dean has had some interactions with Mary with their jaunts to the past, they've got a very limited viewpoint of who she is. Growing up, she was almost a sainted figure - a martyr who was sacrificed in order to fulfill Yellow Eye's plans. And while Dean had some childhood memories of her, they were a child's memories of his "Mommy". Sam has no real memories of her of his own and only what he was told by his father.

Finding out that Mary was a hunter from a long family line of hunters is one thing, but I don't think that either Sam or Dean really grasps that it was Mary's actions that not only was the direct catalyst for setting Sam and Dean on this path as hunters, but that she sold out Sam to Azazel before he was even conceived. That everything bad that's happened to the boys - Jess's death, both Sam and Dean going to Hell and all the suffering and loss they've endured - can be directly traced back to Mary's deal with Azazel. Leaning that is going to fundamentally shift how Sam and Dean see their mother and I'm really curious to see if the show is going to have the guts to take that fact head on and not try to whitewash it as they've done before when a character did the potentially unforgivable.

[Aeryn13]

But they`ve both known that for years. I get that it is easier to not think ill of the dead but I would still find it weird if they were really antagonistic towards her for that reason. I reckon both Dean and Sam made peace with the deal Mary made. And it`s not like they didn`t fuck over the universe through reckless actions to save a loved one before. Noone should be casting stones in this family.

As for Mary "selling Sam out", I don`t think she ever did. If she had at least known she was making a deal that had in any way to do with a child - like in many fairytales - okay, I could see it but all she knew is that the demon wanted to come back in 10 years. That`s it. Could have come for her, could have come for John, could have come for a favour. It was super-foolish not to ask for clarifications maybe but if she never had children at all or didn`t have one at that specific time, she would have been home free even. To me, if someone sells out someone else, they must at a very minimum be aware that they are doing it.  

Edited August 14, 2016 by Aeryn13

[trxr4kids]

I can't actually blame Mary, I blame the angels. If Dean hadn't gone back in time and been manipulated by Castiel, Mary wouldn't have crossed Azazels path. It was just the first step in the set up towards the apocalypse IMO.

[Demented Daisy]

Too many people have made too many mistakes to start pointing fingers at anyone, IMO.  

[DittyDotDot]

I'm not sure what casting stones at Mary would accomplish at this point. She can't undo what happened and can't unmake who Sam and Dean became. I think all they can do at this point is move forward. 

[MysteryGuest]

Mary may have made a deal with the devil, but she had no idea what she was agreeing to, other than he would bring John back, and she needed to not interfere when he returned in 10 years.  That's all he told her.  Sure, if she had been thinking clearly, she should have asked for clarification, but she'd just lost both parents and the man she loved in the span of about 5 minutes, so I'm willing to cut her some slack.  

Sam and Dean both know what happened, so I certainly hope the writers don't play this part up as some sort of revelation they now have to deal with.  I think just finding out about the parts of her life they are not aware of, and dealing with her potential return to hunting will be enough.  I was absolutely against them bringing Mary back, but I do like when the show gives us glimpses of the Winchester's family history, so if they do this right, it might make for an interesting storyline.  

Edited August 14, 2016 by MysteryGuest

[catrox14]

I gotta say that I legitimately do not understand where Dabb got the idea that the boys especially Dean saw Mary as a saint. I really, really don't.  IMO, Dabb is pulling this out of his ass.  Dean met Mary. He knows she was a hunter. He knows that she made a deal. He tried to stop her but got there too late.  I don't think Dean ever really held it against her that she succumbed to the major duress she endured watching her mother, father and fiance killed in the span of one night when she was 18/19.  

AFAIK, that was never wiped from his memory. It's just not something he talked about. Now the only way out of this is for Dabb to retcon 'In The Beginning" with saying that when Michael wiped Dean's memories he took the stuff from In the Beginning too. But the Dean went to Heaven and he REMEMBERS going to Heaven and knew that their marriage wasn't perfect. But that's not sainthood for Mary, that's a memory of a 4 year old that just wanted to make his Mommy feel better when she argued with John. 

Even Dean's memories of Mary in the wishverse didn't go into saint territory. just a place of love and comfort. But he knew it wasn't real.

Dean looking fondly and longingly at pictures of he and Mary when he was a boy is NOT putting Mary on a pedestal. Sam using the pictures to pull Dean back from killing Sam and sending himself to oblivion in 10.23. IMO isn't putting Mary in a saintly place either. It was  Sam using Dean's love of Mary to remember how to find his way back to love. 

So I am genuinely flummoxed why there is some push that "Mary had secrets" the implication being negative or bad secrets, to take her off a pedestal that IMO she was never actually on. Except maybe for John, but John's not involved here so I just do not get it.  

Edited August 14, 2016 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

Sam and Dean both know what happened,

I'm still not convinced of this myself. I don't think that Sam actually does know. Dean told Sam some details of his trip to the past, but not everything. Dean hadn't, for example, told Sam about Azazel dripping blood into Sam's mouth - Sam knew that from Cold Oak - because Dean called Sam out for not telling him (which in my opinion was kind of hypocritical, since Dean himself wasn't going to tell Sam about it this time, but...) So, if Dean didn't tell Sam that important detail, how can I be sure that Dean told Sam about Mary's deal? I kind of doubt it, as Dean is generally protective of Mary and secretive about such things with Sam. Even way back when they were kids, Dean would sometimes snap at Sam if Sam even dared to ask any questions about their Mom.

So for me, if they treat it as new news for Sam, I don't think that will be much of a stretch at all. As for a reaction, I think that Sam would be a bit shocked about it, but I doubt he would hold it against Mary. My guess is that it would be more guilt inducing than anything else, because he would feel bad for putting so much blame on John.

3 hours ago, trxr4kids said:

I can't actually blame Mary, I blame the angels. If Dean hadn't gone back in time and been manipulated by Castiel, Mary wouldn't have crossed Azazels path. It was just the first step in the set up towards the apocalypse IMO.

I agree. I like Castiel, I do, but where Dean is concerned, Cas sure seems to be covered in Teflon. Of course, Castiel was played by Michael and Zachariah, true, but as I had said in another thread, Sam was also played by the angels (and Ruby). Sam just got stuck taking the bulk of the blame.

19 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I gotta say that I legitimately do not understand where Dabb got the idea that the boys especially Dean saw Mary as a saint. I really, really don't.  IMO, Dabb is pulling this out of his ass.

My opinion only here:

Maybe saint is a strong word, but I do think that Dean for a long time saw Mary through rose-colored glasses, and part of that is because of John. Yes, he knows that Mary was a hunter, but also that she tried to protect her family from that - a noble goal in Dean's mind. He also knows that she made a deal, but that was something Dean himself did, and so he understands that. From what we saw, the not perfect marriage did not seem to be because of anything that Mary did. That looked more to be on John's shoulders, so Mary trying to make things good for Dean when he was a kid, in my opinion, would only elevate her in Dean's mind. His almost bulldog-like protection of her, even from Sam when they were younger - and maybe potentially later (if Dean didn't tell Sam the truth about the deal), to me does lend some credence to Dean preferring to see Mary as doing no wrong.

As for Sam, I can see how Mary would be this almost mythical figure for him. He only knows about her from what he saw those brief couple of times and what he has been told, which was either skewed (John's accounts) or not very much at all (Dean). Dean was perfectly fine with letting Sam believe the half-truths John told about their previous family life, so much of what Sam knows about Mary has been skewed towards a larger than life mother figure who seldom if ever did wrong.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, AwesomO4000 said:

when he was a kid, in my opinion, would only elevate her in Dean's mind. His almost bulldog-like protection of her, even from Sam when they were younger - and maybe potentially later (if Dean didn't tell Sam the truth about the deal), to me does lend some credence to Dean preferring to see Mary as doing no wrong.

 Dean never espoused that Mary could do no wrong because he has no framework for that. He's never said anything that was in great defense of Mary. He was angry in the pilot for Sam talking about Mary never coming because IMO Dean's still mourns her and misses that love and comfort he had and he was pissed that Sam was somewhat matter of fact/cold about her death, in Dean's mind IMO. But again, not sainthood or even pedestal putting IMHO

Mary is mythologized by the show, but not by her children IMO. So if the show wants to show us Mary's life in flashbacks to round out her character, fine. But I will be mighty unahppy if they make it so that Sam and Dean are flummoxed that their mother is a real person. I mean Dean again, already knows that about her.

Dean RELATING to Mary about making deals to save the life of someone in the family is not the same as canonizing Mary or protecting Dean's decisions.  To me that's Dean's innate ability to empathize and show compassion towards his mother like he was towards John for so many years. It's only in later life that Dean starting realizing John's parenting was less than ideal and kind of did a number on Dean and Sam. 

Since Mary apologized to Sam in s1, I'm pretty convinced that Sam realized in retrospect why she apologized so to me he knows she made some kind of deal about him.

[MysteryGuest]

At this point in the Winchester saga, I find it hard to believe that Sam doesn't know exactly what happened and why as far as the YED is concerned.  It's just not plausible to me that Mary's deal with Azazel will come as a surprise to him, and I hope they don't go there.  It will be enough to show Mary's reaction when she sees what that deal meant for her husband and children.  I imagine she'll have some guilt to work through.

[Bessie]

 I think the show can really go either way when it comes to Mary's relationship with her son's. I do think that Dean tends to put her on a pedestal, which is completely predictable given that she died when he was only four years old.  

And I also think the show could go either way when it comes to whether or not Sam knows if Mary made a deal because they never provided evidence of that one way or the other. They can always claim that Sam does know and it happened offscreen or they can say that he was never told.  They also never really explored how Dean felt about Mary making that deal. I think there are a lot of different ways this could go. 

But I do believe that the show has become primarily plot driven as opposed to character driven so they may not even touch on the deal Mary made. 

Edited August 14, 2016 by Bessie

[Demented Daisy]

27 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I imagine she'll have some guilt to work through.

I would much rather see that than Sam and/or Dean blaming her.

Plus, you know... like mother, like son....  I kid, I kid....  Kinda.  ;-)

[Demented Daisy]

I thought that this had been posted, but I guess not.

http://tvline.com/2016/08/13/supernatural-spoilers-season-12-mary-secret-past/

 

Quote

“Sam blames Dad for all the hunting stuff, but really, you could argue it’s Mom’s fault,” Jared Padalecki points out. “She was the hunter. It was the Campbell family, not the Winchester family. It wasn’t her fault, but it was her lineage that led us to where we are now.”  But rather than focusing on who’s responsible for their current gig, “the boys know that this is their life, this is what they’re good at [and] this is the way they can best help the world,” Padalecki continues.

Quote

 

Meanwhile, Dean’s got his own response to Mary’s return, and it ain’t pretty:  “If you saw the trailer [at Comic-Con], [his] reaction is done face down in the dirt because she flips him,” Ackles shares. (Good to know death hasn’t dulled Mary’s fighting skills!)

“It’s interesting because, yeah, she’s his mother, but she’s also a stranger,” Ackles adds. “That adjustment is going to be very tricky.”

 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Now the only way out of this is for Dabb to retcon 'In The Beginning" with saying that when Michael wiped Dean's memories he took the stuff from In the Beginning too. 

Michael wiped Mary`s (and likely John`s) memories, not Dean`s. There would be no need for it after all.  

Quote

I'm still not convinced of this myself. I don't think that Sam actually does know. Dean told Sam some details of his trip to the past, but not everything. 

For me, the show made it very clear that he knows and that Dean told him after the time travel. Anything else, I would view as a ludicrous rectcon, only done to cast some blame Dean`s way for the next stupid secreths and lieths thing. I wouldn`t put this past the show for that exact reason but I`d regard it as the same bullshit. Also, for that exact reason.  

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Michael wiped Mary`s (and likely John`s) memories, not Dean`s. There would be no need for it after all.  

I guess when he put his fingers to Dean's forehead it was just to send him back to the present. But for some reason I thought he wiped Dean's memory, too. Thanks for correction.

[MysteryGuest]

Both Sam and Dean have made deals and decisions that they knew weren't smart, but that would save the other from dying.  For that reason alone, even if somehow Sam doesn't know about Mary's deal, I can't see that revelation being that much of a shock to him.  If anything, it just shows that they come by their "family first" behavior, naturally.  

[AwesomO4000]

11 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

For me, the show made it very clear that he knows and that Dean told him after the time travel. Anything else, I would view as a ludicrous rectcon, only done to cast some blame Dean`s way for the next stupid secreths and lieths thing. I wouldn`t put this past the show for that exact reason but I`d regard it as the same bullshit. Also, for that exact reason.

If the show made it clear to you, that's fine, but I missed the definitive evidence. I saw just as much evidence that Dean didn't tell Sam as I saw evidence that he did which is why I don't think it would be a ludicrous retcon, done just to cast blame on Dean in some unearned way if Sam didn't know. It was shown by just that snippet of scene that we did see that Dean didn't tell Sam all of the details, including at least one extremely important one. The evidence is right in the dialogue:

Quote

Sam: It's just, our parents. And now we find out our grandparents too? Our whole family murdered and for what? So Yellow Eyes could get in my nursery and bleed in my mouth?
Dean: Sam, I never said anything about demon blood. You knew about that?

So if Dean didn't tell Sam about the demon blood, which is the whole reason why Yellow Eyes was there in the first place, and the reason why Mary was killed, because she walked in on that, then what else didn't Dean tell Sam about what he found out? What other edits in the story did he make? I personally don't know, because the conversation happened off camera.

The only thing I know for sure is that Dean didn't tell Sam all of what he'd found out. The demon blood was the main thing that Castiel supposedly sent Dean to find out about. It was the reason why Dean was supposed to be stopping Sam from using his powers and the potential root of Sam's powers. But I can only guess that Dean didn't want to deal with and/or acknowledge that piece of information, didn't want to have to discuss it with Sam, or both. Dean not being quite ready to deal with Mary's role in what happened or wanting to have to discuss that with Sam either - especially in light of recently finding out about what Sam was doing with Ruby - seems, to me, at least somewhat believable. Dean easily could've told the story without referring to Mary's deal. To me, that would've been a much easier edit than skipping the entire reason that Yellow Eyes was in Sam's nursery in the first place. And it's not like Dean hasn't been protective of Mary's memory before - in my opinion - so in light of all of that, it's not out of the realm of possibility for me that Dean would've skipped that particular detail about Mary making the deal.

I think both interpretations are valid and could be supported by show canon and evidence, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Since Mary apologized to Sam in s1, I'm pretty convinced that Sam realized in retrospect why she apologized so to me he knows she made some kind of deal about him.

In "All Hell... pt 1," Sam is surprised that Mary seems to know Yellow Eyes, and to me, he didn't appear to connect any dots there. However, with Dean telling his story in "In the Beginning," about Azazel showing up and killing their grandparents, now Sam had a reason that Mary would know of Yellow Eyes, so her apology could just have been related to that - i.e. bringing hunting and Yellow Eyes into her children's lives.

To me, I don't think it would necessarily have to follow for Sam that Mary's "I'm sorry" would lead him to conclude that she made a deal with Yellow Eyes 10 years before he was born. And with the added information Dean provided about their grandparents, Sam would have even less reason to come to that conclusion - in my opinion anyway - because now he had a reason that Mary would know Yellow Eyes before that night in his nursery.

But I guess we'll have to wait to find out what happens in the show.

[catrox14]

I'm saying many years later, in retrospect, that Sam has put it all together. Not even necessarily during s4 or s5 but by now? Yeah, I think he has to have figured it out.  Honestly, Sam would be kind of a dolt to not suss it out and Sam most definitely, is not a dolt.

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

So if Dean didn't tell Sam about the demon blood, which is the whole reason why Yellow Eyes was there in the first place, and the reason why Mary was killed, because she walked in on that, then what else didn't Dean tell Sam about what he found out? What other edits in the story did he make? I personally don't know, because the conversation happened off camera.

Considering that Sam did know Yellow Eyes was making deals for access, I would guess Sam probably put it together.

[trxr4kids]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I guess when he put his fingers to Dean's forehead it was just to send him back to the present. But for some reason I thought he wiped Dean's memory, too. Thanks for correction.

I agree with Aeryn13 that his memory was intact and he was just zapped back fwiw.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Considering that Sam did know Yellow Eyes was making deals for access, I would guess Sam probably put it together.

Oh, I didn't remember that Sam knew that from the next generation of kids. I can't even remember what episode that was in, now. I had it in my head that only Dean knew that. Then yes, that would change things, and Sam might have figured it out.

[MysteryGuest]

I think we can safely say that Mary's return will be a huge adjustment for all 3 of them.  Sam has no childhood memories of her and Dean probably doesn't have many.  Since her death, they've both had an opportunity to meet her as a young woman, and various renditions of her have been used by their enemies as a means of manipulation.  I'm not sure they know who she is at this point.

As for Mary, she last saw her children as a 4 year old and a 6 month old, so she's definitely in for a bit of a jolt.  Finding out that her sons were raised as hunters.  Learning that her husband spent the rest of his life trying to track down her killer and was eventually killed again by the YED.  Hearing that her father was brought back from the dead, only to be killed again by Sam.  Not to mention just her own resurrection from the dead.  Yeah, she's going to need lots of therapy!

[catrox14]

One thing I am interested in is how Billie is going to react to Mary not being dead. Regardless of Guck or Amara, Death is death. He hated the natural order being messed with and seemed to only tolerate it because of the Winchesters.  So to me even if Mary's resurrection doesn't screw with a timeline it IS screwing with the natural order.   Death tolerated the Winchesters but Billie is less inclined.  I think the threat of the Empty is still probably going to be a thing. I can't help but think she's gonna have a big problem with this.

[SueB]

I think Dean has definitely put his Mom on a pedestal. In his mind he understands what has happened, how she lived. He saw her make the deal under a no-win situation. But all that does change the fundamental connection he feels towards her. At four, she was LOVE. She was SAFE. She was HOME. And those were all ripped away from him in an instance. He was so traumatized he didn't talk for months. He tried 'everyday' to be brave for his Mom. He loves pie because it's MOM. The memory of a four year old IS idealized and his few interactions are not likely to have shifted his view. If she was still not a huge part of his heart, Amara would not have brought her back. 

Speaking of which, how will Dean feel if Mary was ripped from Heaven just to keep HIM company? And how do you explain that she's alive because The Darkness wanted to give him a gift?

Edited August 15, 2016 by SueB

[catrox14]

I legit don't understand why loving his mother is tantamount to putting her on a pedestal. That just escapes my thinking.  He can have a deep emotional attachment to that sense and desire to be loved and cared for by his mother like he was at 4, that MOM = LOVE. 

Where is the idealization? He already dealt with knowing what she did and IMO he either forgave her or just understood her impossible situation and loved her anyway.  Is he supposed to be angry with her, or berate her choice to someone else to prove he doesn't put her on a pedestal?  Being traumatized and wanting the comfort pie brings him =/= idealizing his mother.  It's his happy place. I mean I remember a lot of things about my mom that are my happy place, but I also know she made a lot of mistakes. Dean knows Mary made mistakes. He still loves her and loves the comfort of pie. Maybe by now he just likes pie for pie's sake.  

Whatever idealized view of Mary he had before s3, changed after he met her in the past.

ETA: To me it's dismissive of Dean and Mary as fully formed, multi dimensional and flawed humans to say that Dean didn't see Mary as a full person but as only an ideal.

Edited August 15, 2016 by catrox14

[Demented Daisy]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

ETA: To me it's dismissive of Dean and Mary as fully formed, multi dimensional and flawed humans to say that Dean didn't see Mary as a full person but as only an ideal.

It's one of his flaws.  Besides, he doesn't know enough about Mary to think of her as a full person.  He has his childhood memories of her -- in which she was an idealized version -- and a couple of days worth of memories of her as an adult.  That's nowhere near enough to erase the idealized memories.  She was a tragic victim of Azazel, just like the rest of them.  Then she became another victim of Michael and the angels.  She had no idea that she was fighting against "destiny".  She didn't even know that she had to fight.

His whole life, she has been his tragic hero.  How can he see her as a person, independent of that?

[DittyDotDot]

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I mean I remember a lot of things about my mom that are my happy place, but I also know she made a lot of mistakes. Dean knows Mary made mistakes. He still loves her and loves the comfort of pie.

Yes, but you have a lifetime of memories of your mom--the good days and the bad--you saw her in the morning with her hair all messed up; saw her when she was bone tired; saw her when she was happy; saw her when she was sad. You actually knew your mother as a whole person because you knew her.

Dean only has a few "comfort" memories of her and and a bunch of stories John told to reinforce that. I doubt Dean can remember a time Mary lost her temper or even had a bad hair day. They briefly met her in the past, but that only served to bolster the legend of her. She's young and vibrant and, well, awesome. Losing her parents and making a deal with a devil was just another tragic sidenote to all that. Dean's--and Sam's for that matter--entire childhood was mourning this woman they never really knew and the life that could've been if she hadn't died. She's the hero who would've saved their family if only she wouldn't have died.

Perhaps what we're going to see is that things aren't really all that simple and their lives wouldn't been all that much different if Mary had lived? Less monster hunting, probably, but John could've become an alcoholic without Mary's death. And without the monster hunting, maybe it would've been worse for them? Maybe Mary would've became paranoid as a parent of two small children knowing what was out there in the dark? You just can never tell what would've been.

Edited August 15, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[Aeryn13]

Quote

It's one of his flaws.

If he just never really had the opportunity to relate to Mary as an adult - until now - and only has the idealized memories as a child plus two days of time travel where they also couldn`t interact as parent and adult child, how is it a flaw in his personality? I do believe his view of Mary now is more complex than that of a literal four-year-old and that is what is to be expected in the situation. To me a flaw is something you can correct about yourself to some degree but what was he supposed to do about growing up without his mother and never building different memories? 

[Demented Daisy]

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

To me a flaw is something you can correct about yourself to some degree but what was he supposed to do about growing up without his mother and never building different memories? 

You can realize that your mother was an actual person, not an idealized version of her.  I'm not convinced Dean has done that.  Of course, that's easier for him to do if he's confronted with the person his mother actually was.  However, I don't feel it's necessary.

Does Dean put Mary on a pedestal?  I think so, yes.

Is it reasonable, based on their history, for him to do so?  Again, IMO, yes.

Could he, as an adult, have realized that she was a person separate from his perfect mother?  Yes, I believe he could.  I think it's a personality flaw that he hasn't done so yet.  He's had a lifetime to take John off the pedestal, but I'm not convinced he's done that, either.

I don't think any of those ideas are mutually exclusive.

[catrox14]

Obviously Dean doesn't have a lifetime of memories like I do or anyone else that was fortunate enough to have a long time with their mother. HE DOES, though, have memories of her as a young woman making some questionable choices.

Dean seems to have only ONE picture of Mary with him which he put on the nightstand when he moved into the bunker, during his nesting phase. That picture is referenced and used to amp up the angst but it shouldn't subvert what Dean already remembers about Mary. To me idealizing her (putting her on a pedestal) would be ignoring anything negative about her and there is no evidence that he has done that because she became a non-entity in the show after s6, meaning she wasn't really talked about at all. She existed only as a picture for Dean to gaze fondly upon which doesn't/oughtn't negate what Dean already knows and has accepted as part of Mary's life.

Here are the scenes that adult Dean has related to Mary  

s1- Pilot: ON the bridge "Don't talk about her that way".  Angry Dean that does not want Sam to speak of Mary as being just this dead thing that will never come back.  Dean knows she's dead but he's still grieving and it's messed up him up and it hurts him. He doesn't know anything about her past yet.  Does this count as idealization? or complicated grief? Maybe both.  He has memories of soup, pbjs, and her burning up in his presence and running out the door with Sam in his arms.  Trauma and complicated grief.   

s1- "Everyday I try to be brave because my mom wants me to be brave" Dean is using his trauma and experience to get help the kid in Dead in the Water to talk to his Mom, Andrea.  Does Dean want to be brave because of his mom? Sure, why not? He's also a hunter trying to solve a case. To me that's more honoring her memory and trying to make something good out of her death more than idealization, but I can see a case for both.

s1 - Ghost!Mary sees Dean and only says his name. No discussion. No interaction beyond that.  Dean is both in awe, IMO and totally confused about why she's sorry. He's happy to see her face again and it probably did trigger his 4 year old needs for his Mommy to take care of him on some basic level but I'm not seeing the idealization here either. 

s2 - Is Mary even talked about in s2 before the wishverse?  I have trouble recollecting that. Dean sees an adult Mary after John has died. The Mary that the djinn is creating to manipulate Dean so that Dean remains in the wishverse headspace so that the Djinn can use him for his blood.  Dean is put into a world he did not actually have and it couldn't have been built on Dean's actual memories because he doesn't have any. Idealized life for Dean in the wishverse where he's an alcoholic that doesn't get along with his brother? Hard to know here. IMO

s3- Is there any mention of Mary? I legitimately can't remember one.

s4 - Dean meets young Mary. Sees her with his grandparents. Sees her as a young adult being wooed by John who is different than the man he grew up with.  He sees her work a case. Sees her talk to a victim. Knows she can fight.  Understands that she's a good hunter.  He knows here that Mary kept it a secret from John that she was in a family of hunters.  To me, this episode alone, reorients Dean's previous thinking about Mary and John. He saw them differently and that stuck with him.

Dean's alternate life as Dean Smith is Ellen and Bobby as mom and dad not Mary and John. Sam doesn't have any parents that he talks about, which is really sad when you think about Zach taking away their memories for this exercise. 

s5 - Dean sees Mary as a 25 year old woman, now married to John and she's trying to hide from John that she knows Dean already. He saw her fight Anna and the angels. And he convinced her that if they were never born the apocalypse never happens. And by then IMO if she wasn't already pregnant(which yes she could have had an abortion but lets be real, that's not something the show was ever going to do). Here Dean sees her as a young adult making some difficult life choices, further changing his viewpoint of her.

s5 - DSoTM. His heaven memory is a 4 years old. It's that deep happy safe place that he wants to remember and feel again. That happy place filled with nothing but love. Because he's 4 years old.  But he's watching it through his adult eyes. Seeing Mary argue with John. His perspective has changed. So again, to me, not seeing any actual idealization of Mary now. By the end of the episode Zachariah is pawing Mary and Dean is seeing a distorted view of her because Zach is trying to crush Dean's spirit. Dean knows that's not real Mary. He gets it.

s6- Eve!Mary.  Dean is shaken to see his mother's face being used against him. But he's able to do what he has to do knowing that's not really Mary.

s7 - Is Mary mentioned at all? I legitimately don't remember on mention of her.

s8- Dean moves into the bunker, nests and puts the ONE picture he has of he and Mary on his nightstand.  Mary is not really discussed, but Dean's memories are intact AFAIK.  Also, Dean just got out of Purgatory so maybe seeing Mary and him at 4 is more comforting than the past year he spent fighting monsters in Purgatory trying to save Castiel. Idealization or comfort? I'm going with comfort

s9- Is Mary mentioned or referenced beyond the nightstand picture?  I can't remember.

s10 -The picture of Dean and Mary is in Dean's room which Sam finds in Black because demon!Dean left it behind. Turns out it was Chekhov's picture because Sam used it to get through to Dean..to remember what love was.  Dean idealizing Mary or was Sam here?

s11 - Amara resurrects Mary as a gift to Dean. 

I have a bit of a head!canon that at some point, before Dean was going off to be the soul bomb that in his heart, or his mind, he wished for Sam to have Mary to help Sam since Dean would no longer be around for that. I mean Dean has been both mother and father to Sam a many points in their lives.  Maybe when he visited Mary's grave with Sam, he had a thought of "Gods, I want to see my mom again before I die" hence the wink of that he would see her again. Perhaps when  Dean talked Amara off the ledge she pinged on that moment he had when he was facing his certain death (again).

Amara saying "I'm giving you what you need the most" which is not the same thing as "I'm giving you what you wished for".  And the "you" might have been collective of both Dean and Sam. And Amara, lacking human understanding, took it literally as in "Okay Here is your mom back".

I dunno. I guess my long winded and winding post is basically that I don't see any compelling evidence that Dean is still idealizing Mary. To me he hasn't since s4..maybe even s1 after Home.  YMMV and all that.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Could he, as an adult, have realized that she was a person separate from his perfect mother?  Yes, I believe he could.  I think it's a personality flaw that he hasn't done so yet. 

I think he has done it but you wouldn`t necessarily see it much because what would it look like? I believe he does get the abstract idea that Mary existed as a person beyond "mommy" but there is not that much he knows about that person. Some of it from the time travel eps but not nearly enough to create much of a vivid picture.  So it wouldn`t really inform the way he talks about her, reacts to her memory or looks at her picture.  

My Dad died when I was young, I only ever saw him a couple times in my life and I remember those as joyfull occassions. Of course I now know more about him, his life, mistakes and vices but those are stories. Mind you, I have no reason to doubt them and I have no problem accepting them but I just pretty much relate to him as I always have. I don`t know what I could change, should change about that etc. It just confuses me. So, if things appear to stay the same for ages 10, 15, 20, 30 or 40, I just file that under "normal". 

[DittyDotDot]

10 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

If he just never really had the opportunity to relate to Mary as an adult - until now - and only has the idealized memories as a child plus two days of time travel where they also couldn`t interact as parent and adult child, how is it a flaw in his personality? I do believe his view of Mary now is more complex than that of a literal four-year-old and that is what is to be expected in the situation. To me a flaw is something you can correct about yourself to some degree but what was he supposed to do about growing up without his mother and never building different memories? 

I think Dean has a tendency to not always see people close to him as who they really are. John, for example and Sam back in S1 and 2. I'd say he tends to see the positive in people he's close to. I'm not sure I'd call it a flaw, exactly, but is kinda a set up for heartbreak later.

Edited August 16, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[Demented Daisy]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'd say he tends to see the positive in people he's close to. I'm not sure I'd call it a flaw, exactly, but is kinda a set up for heartbreak later.

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong in seeing the positive in people, either.  Especially those you love.  But I also tend to think that putting anyone on a pedestal is a flaw.  In adults, anyway.  

I tend to think that Dean's version of Mary in What Is and What Should Never Be is the idealized version of her.  I think the djinn pulled it right from his head.  That's the "apple pie life" Mary that he always thought he wanted.

But, hey, mileage varies and art is subjective, right?  ;-)

[AwesomO4000]

22 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Considering that Sam did know Yellow Eyes was making deals for access, I would guess Sam probably put it together.

20 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Oh, I didn't remember that Sam knew that from the next generation of kids. I can't even remember what episode that was in, now. I had it in my head that only Dean knew that. Then yes, that would change things, and Sam might have figured it out.

Off current topic - so sorry about that - but this is bugging me. I'm usually good at remembering show stuff and it bugs me when I can't. Could you please remind me which episode this was in, DDD? (No rush, just if and when you have the time and if you know.) My subtle *hint, hint* in my above post was I guess too subtle - I thought someone would jump at the chance to post "Oh, yeah, it was in such and so episode, and here's what happened" or "here's the dialogue." (Wait, what do you mean I resemble that comment? Okay yeah, you're right - it's a sickness...)

I've gotten a bit more obsessive about some stuff in my older age, and for my brain's sake, I want to know where this was - and I'm betting it's probably in an episode that I don't like much and usually skip in rewatch and so that's why it's escaping me ...And considering I've got a lab class to prepare for, I don't have time to look for  it myself. (What? Okay yes, so I did look for it and couldn't find it, but I stopped myself... so progress?)

And if anyone else beats DDD to it, that's okay also. I just need to shut up the little, obsessive Detail Gremlin in my head who wants to know.

And an advanced big "Thank you" for the information. I'll owe you internet cookies or a hat or something.

[DittyDotDot]

25 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Off current topic - so sorry about that - but this is bugging me. I'm usually good at remembering show stuff and it bugs me when I can't. Could you please remind me which episode this was in, DDD? (No rush, just if and when you have the time and if you know.) My subtle *hint, hint* in my above post was I guess too subtle - I thought someone would jump at the chance to post "Oh, yeah, it was in such and so episode, and here's what happened" or "here's the dialogue." (Wait, what do you mean I resemble that comment? Okay yeah, you're right - it's a sickness...)

I've gotten a bit more obsessive about some stuff in my older age, and for my brain's sake, I want to know where this was - and I'm betting it's probably in an episode that I don't like much and usually skip in rewatch and so that's why it's escaping me ...And considering I've got a lab class to prepare for, I don't have time to look for  it myself. (What? Okay yes, so I did look for it and couldn't find it, but I stopped myself... so progress?)

And if anyone else beats DDD to it, that's okay also. I just need to shut up the little, obsessive Detail Gremlin in my head who wants to know.

And an advanced big "Thank you" for the information. I'll owe you internet cookies or a hat or something.

Sorry, I thought I'd responded already. Anyway, I thought it was in All Hell Breaks Loose part 1, but thinking about it more it's just that Mary recognized Yellow Eyes. But, the dialogue in Metamorphosis suggests to me he knew the deals Yellow Eyes was making was for access:

Quote

It's just, our parents. And now we find out our grandparents too? Our whole family murdered and for what? So Yellow Eyes could get in my nursery and bleed in my mouth?

I don't know. Maybe Sam doesn't know, but it just seems unlikely at this stage in the game he doesn't. So many of these conversations happen off screen, it's hard to tell.

Edited August 15, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[goldy]

[Demented Daisy]

http://tvline.com/2016/08/16/colton-haynes-arrow-return-season-5-roy-spoilers/
 

Quote

 

Question: How long will Mary be sticking around on Supernatural? Is Samantha Smith a series regular? —Amanda

Ausiello: She’s not a regular but showrunner Andrew Dabb confirms that Sam and Dean’s mom “is certainly a presence for a while,” adding, “She’s not a one-episode character, let’s put it that way. That’s something we’re going to explore over the course of the season.”

 

[Demented Daisy]

TVLine Blind Item: Casting Stunt

As always, I bring this here because it could be Supernatural, not that I think it definitely is.  A couple of ideas floating in the comments are JDM and William Shatner.

Personally, JDM makes sense (since they've brought back Mary -- a flashback wouldn't be out of place), but he seems awfully busy at the moment.

Any thoughts?

Edited August 17, 2016 by Demented Daisy
To fix capitalization.

[Diane]

JDM does make sense, but good grief I would love for it to be Shatner.

[catrox14]

JDM wouldn't be spit take level of stunt because we've been jonesing for it and it wouldn't be particularly shocking IMO. Immensely exciting and fun but IMO not spit take shock value.

I would rather not with Shatner but that's just me. HOWEVER, if it is him I think the only thing he would play is Sassy!Fat!Zombie!Hitler but that isn't supposed to happen until ep 5 and the spoiler says the character is in EP1. 

BUT in the sizzle reel that is 12.01, the people that are fighting Dean and Cas are wearing long black coats reminiscent of the Thule and they seemed to be able to take out Cas and Dean somewhat handily. So MAYBE they show us SassyFatZombie!Hitler played by Shatner as the tag at the end of the episode akin to how we met Rowena.

I do think we might see Missouri again this season given Dabbs mention psychics.

[goldy]

[catrox14]

I love Dean's hair this season. It's almost demon!Dean like. Sigh.

 

[SueB]

First: now I NEED Shatner as SassyHitler

Second: Hair is nice, on both.

[goldy]

Two more pics from set: