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Spoilers With Speculation

SueB

By SueB
in Supernatural

ohjoy
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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PeterKahlke
PeterKahlke

NEXT ON SUPERNATURAL Sam and Dean search for the yellow-eyed thing that killed their mom.

devlin
devlin

I don’t care who JA is going to be playing. I could seriously watch this guy read the phone book and be completely enthralled. I am just looking forward to some powerhouse acting full of nuances by wh

gonzosgirrl
gonzosgirrl

So, so over it. You're a big boy - if you don't agree, put up or shut your judgey piehole.

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AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

An imaginary friend? For me the way that makes the most sense is if Sam's imaginary friend had been Azazel. Lucifer would also have been cool, but he probably wouldn't have been able to get messages through the cage that easily since it took Azazel quite the spell to make that happen. Now if somehow, that guy was Azazel's previous host - that would be cool, but since Azazel is destroyed, that no longer would be kosher for him to return, but we do know that Azazel had demons watching Sam... so if that guy was one of the hosts/demons who had watched Sam and maybe got into his dreams or daydreams and young Sam mistook him for an imaginary friend... that would be a cool thing from the past, and I could get behind that.

 

I'm kinda hoping that's what this is now rather than an actual imaginary friend.

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ZennyKenny

ZennyKenny

but since Azazel is destroyed, that no longer would be kosher for him to return, but we do know that Azazel had demons watching Sam... so if that guy was one of the hosts/demons who had watched Sam and maybe got into his dreams or daydreams and young Sam mistook him for an imaginary friend... that would be a cool thing from the past, and I could get behind that.

 

I'm kinda hoping that's what this is now rather than an actual imaginary friend.

 

I like this idea. It does fit in with the whole "you can't outrun your past" theme. Your theory about getting into his dreams makes me wonder if Sam's imaginary friend will have any relation to the visions that he thinks are from God.

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SueB

SueB

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(edited)

I'm starting to come around to catrox (I think it was catrox's theory) that the start of S11 is a semi-AU.

 

1) First we have Carver saying that EP1 and EP2 are really a two-parter.  My read into this is: don't drop the show on the first episode, wait until the end of the second episode to see how it really is going to pan out.

2) Then we have the new description for EP2

 

https://twitter.com/clarissa373

#Supernatural 11.02 synopsis "Form and Void" (October 14)

DEAN AND SAM FACE THEIR OWN BATTLES — Dean (Jensen Ackles) helps Jenna (guest star Laci J. Mailey), the nurse he met after the Darkness fell, get back home safely and then sets off to help Sam (Jared Padalecki) deal with a town infected by a mysterious and deadly gas. However, when Jenna falls into dangerous hands, she calls Dean for help and Sam tells him to go back to her. Unfortunately for Sam, he isn’t able to handle the townspeople turned monsters as easily as he thought. Phil Sgriccia directed the episode written by Andrew Dabb.

Seems to me that EP2 is STILL in the zombie-apocalypse mode.  Yet we know that EP3 is not a world-wide zombie apocalypse.  So either the bulk of EP1/2 is a local phenomena OR it's semi AU.

3) Sam getting infected (in what looks like a hospital) could easily be in this second epsiode when he's on his own.

4) I think the boys kinda EXPECT an apocalyptic-like world.  That this is where their brain goes makes kinda sense IMO.

5) There are CLEARLY flashback or AU moments (Sam in hell-space, Dean in grey space, Dean with the triplets....)

6) EP 3 we have BTS pictures that indicate the rest of the world is not wonky.

 

Bottom line: Sam getting infected in a zombie-apocalypse is JUST what  we'd expect.  But he's not infected in EP3 (based on photos).  I think EP1/2 is a mislead. 

Edited by SueB
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SueB

SueB

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I'd love for the Alpha Vamp to come back though you think he would have put out a blanket "stay the Hell away from the Winchesters" command to his children.

Exactly. It's clear all demons have Sam and Dean mugshots with a message from the King 'Don't touch my stuff'. Not that he would phrase it that way. He would phrase it as 'don't touch things above your pay grade, they are likely to kill you and I have a purpose for their existence'. Frankly, after all the demons they've killed, you'd have to be insane to go after them.

Which brings up an interesting point: if Crowley didn't need them to clean up the Darkness mess, would he declare open season on Sam and Dean or would he want to do the deed himself?

Which also brings up another point: what if Crowley is 'dead' in the Possible Darkness-inspired AU and that's why Mark says he's dead. There's something there. Mark is a first class troll with regard to spoilers but I can't believe his 'Crowley is dead' is withiut SOME rationale. Of course Carver has thrown his trolling little behind under the bus, so IDK.

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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

Exactly. It's clear all demons have Sam and Dean mugshots with a message from the King 'Don't touch my stuff'. Not that he would phrase it that way. He would phrase it as 'don't touch things above your pay grade, they are likely to kill you and I have a purpose for their existence'. Frankly, after all the demons they've killed, you'd have to be insane to go after them.

Which brings up an interesting point: if Crowley didn't need them to clean up the Darkness mess, would he declare open season on Sam and Dean or would he want to do the deed himself?

Which also brings up another point: what if Crowley is 'dead' in the Possible Darkness-inspired AU and that's why Mark says he's dead. There's something there. Mark is a first class troll with regard to spoilers but I can't believe his 'Crowley is dead' is withiut SOME rationale. Of course Carver has thrown his trolling little behind under the bus, so IDK.

 

Point one: I think he'd want to do it himself. And, in my own head, he's had a plan on how to do it, but needed Dean to be rid of the Mark first.

 

Point two: I still say Crowley is going to at least try and become Death. Still not convinced he can actually be Death, but Crowley's all about the power grab, so...

 

What I think the interesting point is: Does the Alpha Vamp actually have any control over his "children" anymore now that Eve is dead? I thought his "connection" to them was a direct result of Eve's presence trying to rally the troops. It seems like the vamps of S8-S10 are more like my daddy's vamps of S1-S5 and are back to having their own isolated nests. Hmm?

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Omegamom

Omegamom

I do think there are going to be some twisty-turnies at first...I'm intrigued by Crowley in the priest outfit, in the church. What if in the AU, he actually *is* a priest? Imagine locals saying, "Check with the padre, he might know" (something about The Darkness), Sam and Dean go there, and it's mild-mannered Father Crowley?!? Whoa.

But I'm sure it's some scheme of his. Maybe he's hiding out from The Darkness.

Only a week and a half!

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

HOLD UP!!!  I just thought of something

 

RE: The angel/winged thing coming out of the Darkness

 

Didn't all the angels lose their wings when they fell  to Earth, which is why they drive everywhere? Or am I misremembering?  Even though Cas got his grace back his wings were still burned.

 

So unless the Darkness gave them all their wings back, theoretically, shouldn't that limit us to Michael or Lucifer since they  were in the Cage when the angels fell?  

Edited by catrox14
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7kstar

7kstar

Right now the imaginary friend storyline sounds really stupid.  The actor doesn't look promising.  Maybe if I'm ready for a really bad ep when it airs I'll be surprised.

 

I'm more forgiving if they tried something really cool and it failed vs they tried a really stupid idea and it failed.  Shame they weren't going for "Harvey".  An invisible white rabbit might be more interesting than this one...

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7kstar

7kstar

Hee hee.  No wonder Sam is scared of clowns. 

 

Of course when I read that I remembered my dog "Bozo".  He got his name for falling off the picnic table backwards and whining about not being able to put another bone in his mouth.  Never mind he had his mouth stuffed with 3 bones already.  We were watching Bozo the Clown when we gave my dog his name.  My Dad and I said it at the same time. 

 

Now I wonder what Story Dean could share about Sam.  I'm sure he was scared of Bozo...so when did the fear begin?  :)

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rue721

rue721

Eh, sometimes fears just crop up. I'm kind of terrified of dolls. But no doll ever did anything awful to me.

 

I like the idea that Sam's imaginary friend was a clown who ultimately turned on him (which soured Sam on clowns for life), though.

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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

I like the idea of the clown and seeing where Sam might have gotten his clown-phobia, but not sure if that will fit considering who they cast for it. I've seen the guy a couple times and he seems to always be the goofy, naive and totally exuberant oddball friend. Oh, wait, maybe that would work.

 

I guess I don't care what the monster is as long as the episode is good. I'm guessing it's gonna be one of the "funny" ones, but I kinda hope it's more of a mind screw. Do we know who's writing this one? 

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SueB

SueB

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(edited)

I don't know why, but the imaginary friend thing kinda reminds me of the Cupid ep, that kind of vibe.  

His smile looks a bit like Cupids?

 

I got the impression that the IF (imaginary friend), was in trouble.  Therefore, real.  And tied to Sam being open to seeing him.  I wonder if he's actually some sort of supernatural creature that only kids could see (think BtVS episode "Killed by Death"). Particularly kids who have a vivid imagination or slightly psychic?

So... with Sam praying to God again.  Perhaps this being comes to see him because he needs his help and Sam is more capable in the psychic department.  It would be interesting if he showed up inside the bunker but if he's real, I'm going to guess not.

Also, I could certainly see it having a comedy bent in the episode.  Sees natural to me.

 

 

ETA:  The Women of Letters Podcast has a bit from Jensen's M&G which talks about how Jensen approaches his character (per episode) versus Jared (per arc). Also, I personally think his comment that first talks about how he learned who Dean was in S1 is interesting but more importantly, he's indicated that it's far more than that now that so much time has passed.  In short, I think the theory of S1 Dean "personality" is not supported with this comment.  The M&G part starts at 1:35:30 and goes for 5 mins. 

http://womenoflettershalfhour.podomatic.com/entry/2015-09-26T19_42_15-07_00

Edited by SueB
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ZennyKenny

ZennyKenny

Right now the imaginary friend storyline sounds really stupid.  The actor doesn't look promising.  Maybe if I'm ready for a really bad ep when it airs I'll be surprised.

 

I'm more forgiving if they tried something really cool and it failed vs they tried a really stupid idea and it failed.  Shame they weren't going for "Harvey".  An invisible white rabbit might be more interesting than this one...

Or Frank the 6-ft tall bunny.

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

Dean just doesn't seem like Dean to me in this clip. He's carrying himself differently. There is just something....off.  I can't explain it. It's almost like future!Dean lite but no thigh holster(which is really disappointing). Sam doesn't entirely seem like Sam either. 

 

I'm still sticking with some kind of bizarro!verse or altered states!verse

 

Also, why does the CW spoil EVERYTHING. Like why not end it with the showing the cop coming out with the gun and leave it there?  Sigh.

 

I'm still laughing that Jared flat out spoiled the psuedo-zombie thing.  LOL oh Jared.

Edited by catrox14
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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

Why does the police woman have to look like a model?

 

I have to say, I didn't think she looked like a model. She seemed fairly short and not super thin. I thought she gave off a Jody Mills/Donna Hanscum vibe. She has a pretty face, dark hair and striking blue eyes....

 

I really hope Dean doesn't hook up with her...because well if it's not Castiel, or Aaron, or Benny....I want it to be Donna.  I ship the hell out of Dean/Donna.

Edited by catrox14
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catrox14

catrox14

I was going to post the sneak peak but you beat me to it! I am so looking forward to this season!

 

I don't know if I'm looking forward to it or not.   I'm still just so disappointed with Dean's MoC and Demon!Dean  arc going nowhere interesting in the end that I'm side-eying this long and hard for now. But I'm definitely going to watch the first 4 episodes....can't promise after that.

 

I'm not feeling particularly thrilled or angry like I was about demon!Dean to see what happens. Like I'm feeling more meh than anything.  Which I think is worse then being like "fuck this" or excited about it.  If that makes any sense.

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

Here's the you tube link

 

S11 Premiere clip. 

 


Wait a minute. That promo voiceover  says the season premiere is THIS wednesday. LOL OMG they can't even put the right date on the promo.  I swear they aren't even trying anymore. WTF CW Promo monkeys

Edited by catrox14
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AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

I have to say, I didn't think she looked like a model. She seemed fairly short and not super thin. I thought she gave off a Jody Mills/Donna Hanscum vibe. She has a pretty face, dark hair and striking blue eyes....

 

I wasn't thinking runway model, because yes, she was a bit on the curvy side, but I saw the skin, face, make-up, eyes, hair, etc. and immediately thought "make-up or skin care ad in a magazine" rather than "policewoman," whereas I didn't have that immediate reaction when I saw Jodi and Donna. Maybe it was the way she moved.

 

On second look, I think it's the make-up and eyebrows - the kind you see in TV shows or movies, but not often in real life. That may be because in my work environment, I don't tend to see women who wear that much make-up (if at all - I don't wear any even though I give presentations on a regular basis - it's just not that kind of profession, and it might even be seen as pretentious.) But I wouldn't expect a police job to be the kind to have professional-looking make-up like that either - with perfectly arched brows and defined lips and cheekbones. It just seems impractical, and I guess it took me out of the scene. Especially since she's supposed to have been wounded in the side by a rebar (car accident?)... and somehow, her make-up and hair is still in perfect order? So no sweating, tears, or anything? Maybe when it plays out in the show and after seeing more than what's here, I won't have that same reaction.

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SueB

SueB

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Well.... if this was happening as something inside either of the boy's head, then her being prettier-than-should would kinda fit with how they might imagine it.

For example, Dean seems to be tied to this cop in the spoilers.  If this is in his head, I could see him painting her "pretty".  Although the rebar is a bit odd.  Does he have a pain kink?

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catrox14

catrox14

I can see what you mean about the eyebrows.  I guess that didn't even stand out to me at all. I've worked with women in the sciences, in programming and IT and have known Navy women and a couple of female cops (my cousin was a deputy sheriff and a former beauty queen and she always was well groomed with hair and face etc. but would kick your ass in a heartbeat).

 

Donna was well groomed and so was Jody. I guess to me they all look appropriately groomed and attractive but not overly sexualized but still kind of sexy.

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

Well.... if this was happening as something inside either of the boy's head, then her being prettier-than-should would kinda fit with how they might imagine it.

For example, Dean seems to be tied to this cop in the spoilers.  If this is in his head, I could see him painting her "pretty".  Although the rebar is a bit odd.  Does he have a pain kink?

 

 

My latest WAG based on my immediate reaction to the pics and now this clip is the following

 

This is almost like a heightened reality of who they are. Maybe like a Tall Tales thing? Maybe the Darkness messes with how they view themselves or view each other?  Maybe we are going to see each of their own versions of what happens after the Darkness falls.  Or they are each being shown something different? 

 

Dean here just seems almost robotic. Like there is nothing below the surface. I'm not getting that underlying 'warmth' of regular!Dean and he doesn't seem to be crazy!pant!MoC!Dean or who gives a fuck demon!Dean. It's kind of like future!Dean but he was angst ridden if hardcore. He was just going to do whatever he had to do kill Lucifer but he certainly cared and was desperate.  I just realized he seems like Mystery!Spot!Sam where it was hunt, hunt kill, eat angrily.  

 

And I can't quite put my finger on what is different about Sam here.

Edited by catrox14
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ZennyKenny

ZennyKenny

This clip succeeds in getting me kind of excited about the premiere!

 

I'm getting a "surgeon mode" vibe. Like how Turk on the show Scrubs described it: when he operates, he no longer sees a person but rather parts that need to be fixed. Sam and especially Dean are 100% serious, straight down to business, unemotional, being very cautious because they don't know what to expect but they know the weight of the situation.

 

I also don't think that there is any alternate reality happening. I mean I admire your guys' creativity, but I really don't think the writers would get that surreal about the Darkness; I think they want to use the intro of the new season to set down some ground rules about what it is and an au would just confuse the issue.


Oh btw, what does WAG stand for?

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

 

Dean are 100% serious, straight down to business, unemotional, being very cautious because they don't know what to expect but they know the weight of the situation.

 

 

Carver and Dabb have mentioned that both Sam and Dean will have visions/premonitions and that things might not be quite what they seem.  Carver has further said that we needed to wait until the end of the 2nd episode before deciding anything about it. Hence those comments along with my opinions about Dean and Sam's manner in the snippet informs my "creativity". It's not just pulled out of thin air.

 

As soon as the Mark was removed from Dean, he seemed like regular!Dean almost immediately to me. His manner, his voice, his snark about "Well, I'm sure everything will be fine" to me was immediately recognizable as unaffected!Dean. I don't get that from the Dean in the clip.

 

The boys have spent their entire lives going into situations that wherein didn't have all the information or even any information but neither ever switched off their emotions to do the job before and he used his emotions and instincts for hunting. That would be quite the departure for Dean just to turn all that off.  But maybe so.

 

We'll see.

Edited by catrox14
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AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

(edited)

(my cousin was a deputy sheriff and a former beauty queen and she always was well groomed with hair and face etc. but would kick your ass in a heartbeat).

 

Your cousin sounds like an interesting person. : ) . And like she could wipe the floor with me. Heh. kinda like Sandra Bullock in "Miss Congeniality"... except not tripping. Or being dorky.

 

As for the well-groomed thing... that's kind of the odd thing. We dress up for meetings - nice suits, dresses, etc., hair nice,  and also for some presentations (audience dependent for me: dress nice for the master gardeners, but nice jeans and a polo shirt for the pest control guys*) but still generally no make-up (nails can go either way, often depending on the degree of gardening and/or field work). I was almost always that way - especially since I started out in field work - but was surprised to find it similar in the various universities I was in as well.

 

And you're right about them being more well-groomed than anything else. Guess if the rebar thing is real, though, I would've expected her to be a little more mussed.

 

* From my experience, they prefer someone who looks like they would / could do inspection work. They want to be able to relate to you as you're telling them about bugs. Whereas the master gardeners want more to be students and prefer things a little more "formal." The suits, however, are usually for the professional meetings. The pest control professional meetings fall in the middle, like with master gardeners.

 

 

Well.... if this was happening as something inside either of the boy's head, then her being prettier-than-should would kinda fit with how they might imagine it.

For example, Dean seems to be tied to this cop in the spoilers.  If this is in his head, I could see him painting her "pretty".  Although the rebar is a bit odd.  Does he have a pain kink?

 

Interesting theory, SueB, and that would make sense, especially if we're talking a "Tall Tales" kind of thing as catrox suggested. I'm remembering Dean's version of the woman in the bar scene there was very well put together for a college bar hangout, while Sam's version was more along the lines of what I remember from my college days ; ) - except maybe the fishnet stockings (I think Sam had her in).

 

I don't know about Dean and a pain kink. Dean tends to be adventurous - "I'll try anything once" - but somehow I don't picture that as being his kind of thing.

Edited by AwesomO4000
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catrox14

catrox14

 

I don't know about Dean and a pain kink. Dean tends to be adventurous - "I'll try anything once" - but somehow I don't picture that as being his kind of thing.

 

I agree. I think Dean would be up for some kinky things like you know being tied up or what have you but  given all the torture he experienced in Hell I don't think real pain would be something he'd be into. 

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ZennyKenny

ZennyKenny

Carver and Dabb have mentioned that both Sam and Dean will have visions/premonitions and that things might not be quite what they seem.  Carver has further said that we needed to wait until the end of the 2nd episode before deciding anything about it. Hence those comments along with my opinions about Dean and Sam's manner in the snippet informs my "creativity". It's not just pulled out of thin air.

 

i hope that my post didn't come off as dissmissive or snarkish, as that was not the intent.

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SueB

SueB

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It's all good. And nothing would thrill me more than to have a legit zombie-Apocalypse type year. I was thinking more along the lines of getting a premonition of what is to come if they don't fight back the darkness than true AU. Then a reset by the end of the second episode. Otherwise, I think the Zombie-Apocalypse must be a local phenomenon for the rest of the season spoilers to make sense.

WAG means Wild Ass Guess.

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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

(edited)

I got a Good God, Y'all vibe from the whole thing. 

 

I also don't think that there is any alternate reality happening. I mean I admire your guys' creativity, but I really don't think the writers would get that surreal about the Darkness; I think they want to use the intro of the new season to set down some ground rules about what it is and an au would just confuse the issue.

 

I don't think they are in AU either. Looks pretty straight forward "what hell is going on" to me, but I'm routinely sucky at this game, so anything could happen. I wouldn't be surprised if the next episode has some mind-fuckery in it though. Again, I don't think the boys are "other", but I think the Darkness is going to maybe mess with their heads a little. Maybe dreams? I don't know.

Edited by DittyDotDot
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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

And as to the AU-ish aspect, it's not out of the realm of possibility for the show.  THE END did it and it worked because it was Zachariah messing with Dean and showing him what either would happen or could happen if Dean didn't say yes to Michael. 

 

I've pondered if there might not be a similar thing here with Sam and Dean. We see Sam being tortured and Dean looking really confused in a literal dark place.

 

To me if this huge thing called the Darkness has enveloped the earth and is from before God, it could alter some things be it time, or just the boys minds in some way.

 

They had the badass no nonsense attitude in Good God Y'all but they also had the angst brewing underneath because of what happened with the Apocalypse.  They both seemed like Sam and Dean to me.  What can I say, just something is pinging odd for me.

Edited by catrox14
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ZennyKenny

ZennyKenny

(edited)

I think the reason they seem normal to me is because of Dean's quippy dialogue ("Oh that's not good", "Kinda narrowing my options here"), and because of his immediate concern at seeing the policewoman was hurt.

Edited by ZennyKenny
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SueB

SueB

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I just watched again. I noticed little brother Sam STILL take a quick look at Dean and they both chamber a round. It's a subtle thing but it's one of those dynamics that I think always is between them (except for S10) IMO.

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ZennyKenny

ZennyKenny

It's all good. And nothing would thrill me more than to have a legit zombie-Apocalypse type year. I was thinking more along the lines of getting a premonition of what is to come if they don't fight back the darkness than true AU. Then a reset by the end of the second episode. Otherwise, I think the Zombie-Apocalypse must be a local phenomenon for the rest of the season spoilers to make sense.

 

I would love a zombie apocalypse-type year, too.

 

I agree that theorizing about an au makes sense in the context of the "give it until the end of episode 2" comment. I guess I just don't like that idea because I'm not fond of the "it was all a dream" types of deus ex machina. I'd rather that things be dire and them find legitimate solutions.

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