Spoilers With Speculation

[catrox14]

I've got some comments on the spoilers in that promo. If you want to skip feel free, I would spoiler tag my comments but I don't think we are allowed spoiler tag about spoilers in the spoilers comments...are we?

 

 

 

Here's what is really upsetting me.  Dean's eyes.  They're dead. He's never had a dead look in his eyes other than being dead. But this is a different kind of dead. There is no anger. No rage. No snarky scary demon!Dean. No I-want- to- rip- your- throat- out-with-my-teeth demon!Dean. No smarmy asshole season 3 demon!Dean.  There is nothing. I really really don't like that at all. He seems devoid of any thing and that's .....awful :(

[Aeryn13]

 

the look on Dean's face?  I gotta say, it sure seems like Sam was justified that Dean was ready to snap.

 

He wasn`t specifically UNTIL their efforts to cure him resulted in this latest kerfluffle. I hardly think one gets to retroactively pat themselves on the back for being right about a negative change if one brought that negative change about themselves. There really is a chicken and an egg here IMO.

 

However, in terms of the extended  promo, put me down for the entire bunker scenes being a hallucination. Dean will not kill Crowley, Cas or Sam. How do I know? They are all around in the final episode as per the summary. Crowley will duke it out with Rowena and Cas will be caught in the middle, Dean will likely summon Death and Sam will do something with the Book and the spell Charlie translated.

 

A kill-vision like that would successfully freak Dean out enough to bring out the big guns aka summoning Death.  

[GirlyGeek]

Oh who am I kidding, of course I watched it!  :)
I guess I'm not seeing the BIG spoiler-y thing though (other than, of course, its a promo).

We can discuss, right?!  It *is* the spoiler thread!
just in case...
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So, if the BIG thing was Dean shooting the gun at Cass in the LoL, I don't see the big deal.  It won't kill him (of course, its not a good thing that Dean would shoot Cass ever).
Also, I don't think Sam's saying "All of this is your fault" to Dean.  He's saying it to Crowley or Rowena (looks like he's in the dungeon room/cellar)

Also, Dean is scary.

[catrox14]

Okay my thoughts on the promo. Spoiler filled, fair warning.

 

::Le Sigh:: More blaming each other and saying stuff they can't take back. Business as usual with Carver's stint. *

 

* I know it's happened in the past with other showrunners, but never, in my opinion, as badly or as often as it does under Mr. Carver.

 

 

I agree, SueB, we've got evidence on both sides for maximum division... though, I couldn't help but notice they also added Sam's "This is all your fault" (Nyah!) as well, so that's not going to sit well at all with Team Dean I don't think, depending on the context of that comment. Mr. Carver's working really hard to make sure there's division, in my opinion **... asshole indeed... or, dare I say it, assbutt.

 

** Which I think I predicted? I'm just so weary of it all that I've forgotten.

 

 

Okay, after watching that promo a few times, I'm feeling a bit better and alternately annoyed because I don't think the trailer is as spoilery as I thought. I think it's different scenes out of context. Just like the promo for Angel Heart when they spliced together Claire telling Dean he's old and Dean saying "How dare you". That scene never happened.

 

If it makes you feel any better, I'm not convinced that Sam is talking to Dean. There is that red-pink background which I can't remember being anywhere in the bunker and there is an echo in the room. I think he's saying that to Crowley.  I could be wrong but that's how it seems to me.  It could also be Sam yelling at Cas for letting the cat out of the bag. Possibly Rowena for annoying Charlie to the point Charlie left.

 

The scene with Cas in the bunker standing in front of Dean and Dean turns to him Dean does not have a gun in his hand and he's not bloody.  The scene where he raises the gun he's bloody, so that seems to be two different scenes

 

I'm almost wondering if it's all going to be a big fakeout and is Dean dreaming like he was in The Things We Left Behind.

[catrox14]

 

So, if the BIG thing was Dean shooting the gun at Cass in the LoL, I don't see the big deal.  It won't kill him (of course, its not a good thing that Dean would shoot Cass ever).

 

For me the BIG spoilery thing was

 

.

.

.

.

.

.

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.Crowley being shot and the bodies in the bunker.  Why are there bodies in the Bunker? Is it Crowley and Sam lying about after Dean killed them and Cas is left standing? Is it the Stynes? Who blew the door off the bunker?  Cas? The Stynes?

[Aeryn13]

 

Why are there bodies in the Bunker?

 

That`s what I`d like to know. The floors seem littered with people. Even if it is because Dean rampaged on them, where did they come from in the first place? Did Sam put out an ad looking for roommates after all? And they all showed up on the one day when Dean comes in in a spectacularly bad mood?

 

Did the Stynes find them? Can`t say that would surprise me. Since the Winchesters moved in, the location of that super-sekrit bunker might as well have been posted online. Fuck, everyone has been there. Eldon escaped with barely a scratch - hey, ask the Black Knight about it, that wasn`t even a flesh wound.

[SueB]

I'm 99% certain Sam is talking to Crowley

[GirlyGeek]

Why are there bodies in the Bunker? Is it Crowley and Sam lying about after Dean killed them and Cas is left standing? Is it the Stynes? Who blew the door off the bunker?  Cas? The Stynes?

 

 

That`s what I`d like to know. The floors seem littered with people. Even if it is because Dean rampaged on them, where did they come from in the first place? 

Yes, that was interesting me too.  Though the shoes of the one on the left don't look like a male (or at least not Sam and probably not Crowley)

I also noted that the scene between Dean and Cass are spliced together.  Dean has blood all over his ear when he's walking away, too, and when he's facing Cass, I don't see it.

 

*edited: on second look, the shoes all do look male, but none of the shoes or legs look like a Sam  :)  I'm going to assume the Stynes found the LoL and caught Dean on a bad day 

Edited May 11, 2015 by GirlyGeek

[AwesomO4000]

Also, I don't think Sam's saying "All of this is your fault" to Dean.  He's saying it to Crowley or Rowena (looks like he's in the dungeon room/cellar)

If it makes you feel any better, I'm not convinced that Sam is talking to Dean. There is that red-pink background which I can't remember being anywhere in the bunker and there is an echo in the room. I think he's saying that to Crowley.  I could be wrong but that's how it seems to me.  It could also be Sam yelling at Cas for letting the cat out of the bag. Possibly Rowena for annoying Charlie to the point Charlie left.

I'm 99% certain Sam is talking to Crowley

 

These things all make sense. Thanks, guys. I didn't have time to analyze the promo enough to get that detail. And I also forgot how tricky those promo monkeys can be.

 

Also that makes sense. Sam finally getting to tell Crowley personally what he was yelling at him at the end of season 9 (when Crowley wasn't answering). It could also be Rowena... though I'll roll my eyes at Sam for that one, because duh, Sam, you brought her into this and you knew she was a wicked with (TM Castiel) at the time, so that would be at least partially your fault. So I'm hoping it's Crowley as that would make more sense, and be a bit more accurate than if it was Rowena.

 

Crowley being shot and the bodies in the bunker.  Why are there bodies in the Bunker? Is it Crowley and Sam lying about after Dean killed them and Cas is left standing? Is it the Stynes? Who blew the door off the bunker?  Cas? The Stynes?

 

Could it actually be Sam that shoots Crowley after he says "this is all your fault!" ? He is supposed to kill Crowley for Rowena to help. It might not stick of course, but...

 

As for the bodies in the bunker... a Dean hallucination does sound probable...

 

Though if Dean's arm did get harvested and end up on someone, maybe the arm points the way back to the bunker (*snort*) and that's how some Stynes get in - with Dean's arm of a men of letters. And so then Dean has to kill them all to protect the bunker. (sorry gotta be a little silly to pass the time before the episode without going a little nuts.)

[DittyDotDot]

Eh, seems like they cut together scenes totally out of context to me, I'm not going to get worked up about it. I will not give those promo hacks the satisfaction!

[Aeryn13]

 

Though if Dean's arm did get harvested and end up on someone, maybe the arm points the way back to the bunker (*snort*) and that's how some Stynes get in

 

Since Eldon escaped from the bunker, the Stynes will have no difficulty at all finding it. And I`m guessing whatever protection spells and wards ever were there are long gone by now. In other words, they are probably storming the place. In which case, it ain`t a hallucination but Dean coming after them.

 

Which is somewhat ridiculous. Dean goes to their fancy mansion to kill THEM. Meanwhile, they are going to the bunker for the book, presumably. Then Dean has to follow them from their fancy mansion back to where HE lives to kill THEM somemore. Really, show?

[AwesomO4000]

Since Eldon escaped from the bunker, the Stynes will have no difficulty at all finding it. And I`m guessing whatever protection spells and wards ever were there are long gone by now. In other words, they are probably storming the place. In which case, it ain`t a hallucination but Dean coming after them.

 

Which is somewhat ridiculous. Dean goes to their fancy mansion to kill THEM. Meanwhile, they are going to the bunker for the book, presumably. Then Dean has to follow them from their fancy mansion back to where HE lives to kill THEM somemore. Really, show?

 

I was mainly kidding about Dean's arm... still having fun from my exploits of Dean's evil hand from earlier, but didn't they make a point of saying that the bunker was tricky to find unless you knew where to look and that even after having been there you could get lost? (I might have imagined that though.) I thought that Charlie mentioned something about GPS or something not working in the area. Also if Sam and and Dean didn't double up on the warding and protection spells and such after Eldon escaped, then they deserve to get raided. I mean geesh, there has to be some spell / warding / something that would exclude people without all their original and/or extra body parts. * And what kind of progeny of John Winchester are they if they don't set up a bunch of booby traps in case of unwanted entrance into the bunker?

 

* (Which reminds me, Now I'm wondering what they are going to do with those harvested eyeballs: attach another one on the back of their heads or something? Because wouldn't it be easier to figure out how to fix your own body parts rather than harvest someone else's? I mean I guess an eye could be damaged beyond use, but two? How often does that happen to an already enhanced individual who is generally considered expendable according to them anyway? Ehn - unless they are building people from scratch: which just seems impractical when you could go necromance and/or resurrect a whole dead person. So far I do not get these Frankensteins or what they are doing or why.)

[catrox14]

I think there must be a reason they harvest from live victims. I suspect it's the best way to enhance or build with good live tissues.  That's my head!canon anyway

[Demented Daisy]

Meh.  

 

No, seriously.  Meh.

 

Overkill, Carver.  

[rue721]

Ehn - unless they are building people from scratch: which just seems impractical when you could go necromance and/or resurrect a whole dead person. So far I do not get these Frankensteins or what they are doing or why.)

 

I would think that they're trying to build Golems to use as sort of super-soldiers? If they were working with the Nazi Necromancers, who were after the actual Golem, you'd think they'd use the idea as an inspiration.

 

But what I don't get about making people wholesale is that they're a FAMILY. Can't they just have babies? Can't they create people/soldiers wholesale the old-fashioned way? (Like John Winchester did. heh).

 

No offense to actual Southerners intended, but I think that with the Stynes, the show is trying to use the shorthand of Southern & Nazi = white supremacist. Similarly to how the show used to use the lazy, thoughtless shorthand of heavy drinking = feelz, back in the day. But the thing about white supremacists, and the Nazis in particular, is that they were obsessed with *breeding* and specifically breeding "super" humans or the perfect/pure human. Which is why I find it so off-putting that the show has gone in the direction of the Winchesters being "bred" by God or whoever to be the perfect hunters (BLECHHHH) since around S4 or S5. But anyway, so you'd think that a family who's linked with ~human husbandry~ programs to create the ~ubermench~ via a ~pure~ bloodline would:  1. not be creating human bodies from scratch, but would rather be breeding people 2. know about the Winchesters, who apparently have some ~illustrious~ bloodline.

 

LOL can you tell how much I hate this storyline?

 

Well, tbh, I hate it WAY MORE THAN THAT but I am trying to be very restrained so as not to vomit negativity all over the board. :P

[catrox14]

I don't think they are going for the white supremacist angle. I think they are going for the conspiracy theorist angles and the Illumati stuff.  Skulls and Bones for the monster age or some such.  I mean they already said as much by comparing them to the DuPonts. Although this does give them an opportunity to bring back Aaron. I'd be all for that.

 

Speaking of old characters, apparently at the Asylum 14 con this weekend J2 said they would rather bring back Benny than Adam if they had to choose. Poor Adam

Edited May 11, 2015 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

But are they building the perfect human or just reanimating an already existing human? What I mean is, I think they're using the harvesting to extend the lives of the people they already have not necessarily to make the perfect race. Someone loses their eyesight, they go find someone else who has matching features to harvest from. That way they keep the people who already have the skills and knowledge around as long as they can rather than having to continually re-teach the same skills to every generation.

[catrox14]

That's my understanding @DittyDotDot.  Now they could be building an army of super soldiers to fight wars and stuff and this is just the first steps to see if it can work. 

[rue721]

But are they building the perfect human or just reanimating an already existing human? What I mean is, I think they're using the harvesting to extend the lives of the people they already have not necessarily to make the perfect race.

 

If they're just harvesting organs in order to do lots of organ donations on their family members, that seems...pointless. I mean, you can give someone all the new eyeballs you want, but there's still only so much that organ donation can extend a person's longevity.

 

There was that doctor who Sam found in S3 who was "immortal" because he continually harvested organs, but he looked and acted like a dead thing/monster. The Stynes don't look or act like that. It seemed like their own "body modifications" were relatively limited.

 

And isn't overuse of organ donation thinking really, really small (as far as Centuries-Long Nefarious Plots go)? Even Dr. Frankenstein wasn't about messing with people who were already alive, let alone himself or his (hypothetical) children, because it would have been too petty/pointless. He was interested in creating life, because he had a God complex/fantasy.

 

Anyway, imo, the show has made it clear that there's some kind of "bloodline" component to what the Stynes are interested in, because obsession with "heritage"/race is exactly what American slavery and now the American South, and what the Nazis are most infamous for, and because the Stynes aren't a secret society, they're a literal, biologically-related family. But we'll see, I guess.

 

The super soldier idea seems less likely, though. Since the Stynes are sending out relatives to do their dirty work, and trying to armor them by giving them extra hearts and stuff (so it seems like they're habitually sent out to do the dirty work). But if they're harvesting organs and trying to create some kind of super humans -- reanimated corpses built out of human body parts, or by modifying themselves -- then it begs the question of what they want these super humans to DO for them?

Edited May 11, 2015 by rue721

[catrox14]

If they're just harvesting organs in order to do lots of organ donations on their family members, that seems...pointless. I mean, you can give someone all the new eyeballs you want, but there's still only so much that organ donation can extend a person's longevity.

 

There was that doctor who Sam found in S3 who was "immortal" because he continually harvested organs, but he looked and acted like a dead thing/monster. The Stynes don't look or act like that. It seemed like their own "body modifications" were relatively limited.

 

And isn't overuse of organ donation thinking really, really small (as far as Centuries-Long Nefarious Plots go)? Even Dr. Frankenstein wasn't about messing with people who were already alive, let alone himself or his (hypothetical) children, because it would have been too petty/pointless. He was interested in creating life, because he had a God complex/fantasy.

 

Anyway, imo, the show has made it clear that there's some kind of "bloodline" component to what the Stynes are interested in, because obsession with "heritage"/race is exactly what American slavery and now the American South, and what the Nazis are most infamous for, and because the Stynes aren't a secret society, they're a literal, biologically-related family. But we'll see, I guess.

 

The super soldier idea seems less likely, though. Since the Stynes are sending out relatives to do their dirty work, and trying to armor them by giving them extra hearts and stuff (so it seems like they're habitually sent out to do the dirty work). But if they're harvesting organs and trying to create some kind of super humans -- reanimated corpses built out of human body parts, or by modifying themselves -- then it begs the question of what they want these super humans to DO for them?

 

For a super soldier demon army. Build superhumans to be possessed. Abaddon was building an army through stealing souls until Dean killed her.  Hell, maybe even Crowley is supporting the Schteens that would explain why they want the book of the damned.

Edited May 11, 2015 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

And isn't overuse of organ donation thinking really, really small (as far as Centuries-Long Nefarious Plots go)? Even Dr. Frankenstein wasn't about messing with people who were already alive, let alone himself or his (hypothetical) children, because it would have been too petty/pointless. He was interested in creating life, because he had a God complex/fantasy.

 

This show doesn't always follow the lore exactly, but didn't Frankenstein's interest in reanimating the dead stem from the loss of his mother and other family members? I'm not sure it was a God complex as much as he was trying to find a way to keep all his family alive even after death--which is what it appears the current family is doing too. It's been so long since I read the original and there's all the adaptations rattling around in my brain, it's really hard to keep them all straight.

 

Anyway, I haven't seen any suggestion it's about making a superior race, but it's not outside the realm of possibilty.

 

There was that doctor who Sam found in S3 who was "immortal" because he continually harvested organs, but he looked and acted like a dead thing/monster. The Stynes don't look or act like that. It seemed like their own "body modifications" were relatively limited.

 

That was just weird science though, the Stynes have the use of magic behind them. I'm imagining they're also using spells to extent their lives too.

Edited May 12, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[7kstar]

Ahhhhh..... do I click on the link??!!  I have no willpower!!!

Ah look, cause it usually isn't what you think it is, EVER!

 

Okay one minute Dean is a prisoner and then he is on a killing spree???  I agree the splicing is designed to stir up emotions and dividing the fandom could be a death sentence to the ratings. 

 

I'm still on the fence.  I will watch, but it looks like once again they are stuffing too much into the last few instead of balancing it along the season. 

 

On a sour note, about Supernatural...I saw the new Avenger's movie, the thing I really liked and something that Supernatural use to be good at, is mixing humor with depressing.  But somewhere across the line they have just turned to angst.  Yet they have the perfect characters to mix up the drama & the humor....Maybe it would be best if next year was the last....The show needs to reinvent itself, but I just don't see them doing it...ARGH!  So frustrated right now.  :(

Edited May 12, 2015 by 7kstar

[SueB]

So I see everyone else has already spotted all the cutting and what-not.

mini-hyperanalysis of new bits (mostly summarizing what others in this thread have already implied or guessed with a few extras):

- Dean appears to be handcuff to a chair in more of a bull-pen kinda location and somehow gets the drop on the guy and stomps on him while still handcuffed. Then he seems to be beating up the actual sheriff in his office

- The Stynes are stealing shit out of the MoL bunker and then planning on torching it (see gas cans). A little more look at potential-Charlie (and the shoes and side face-ish are kinda Charlie but the bottom half of the body looks too big) but it's more likely random Styne#12 who is thrown on the MoL floor (again books strewn about and gas can). Given how upset Robbie Thompson was, and then spoke about how he fought to not kill off Charlie at the DePaul conference this weekend, I just don't think it's Charlie. If it is, Robbie is a really really good actor.

- Dean kicks down a door in the Styne house is intercut with someone else blasting down the MoL door. I have no problem with the Stynes knowing where the MoL bunker is since they let Eldon escape from it. But blasting down the door? How did they get inside? IDK. But Dean is not kicking in the MoL door, it's someone/thing else.

- Dean IMO is the one who just is shooting the Stynes dead and leaving dead bodies on the floor. Timing wise I think Dean goes: burial pyre, sheriff (maybe 2?), Styne house rampage, prisoner, melee to get free, return to the bunker, kill a bunch of Stynes, some sort of stand-off with Cas.

- I presume Dean gets bloodied up killing Stynes in the MoL. I don't think he aims the gun at Cas, I think that's a mislead.

- Sam's story seems to take place in the brewery - after getting verbally berated by Dean. And per the sneak peek he's apparently promised to shut down the effort. Not likely to succeed is my guess.

- Crowley has found the brewery (I think all his scenes in the promo take place there). I think Sam is yelling at Crowley but I don't know who shoots him, Sam or Rowena. Since Sam goes through an interior window and Crowley is talking about being the "good guy", I'm thinking Crowley comes to "rescue" Rowena and she starts a ruckus.

It's a bit odd how the promo leads us to Dean/Cas at the bunker and Sam/Crowley at the brewery. Given we know Cas gets between a Crowley/Rowena battle and Sam and Dean fight in the bunker, it seems like Cas and Sam need to somehow switch locations during the finale.

Styne motivation: I expect more villain monologuing in this episode when Daddy Styne is about to cut into Dean.

ETA: is it me or does Dean sound like he's channeling John Winchester in asshole mood when he barks at Sam?

Edited May 12, 2015 by SueB

[AwesomO4000]

ETA: is it me or does Dean sound like he's channeling John Winchester in asshole mood when he barks at Sam?

 

I was getting Dean season 2 post John's death vibes. Dean told Sam something similar then with his assertion that Sam didn't get to use the "do what Dad would have wanted" reasoning and/or feel guilty and sorry about John's death, because it was "too little, too late" since Sam had fought with John so much before he died. But it seemed even more than that: like because Sam argued so much with John (and left for college), Dean almost didn't seem to feel that Sam had the right to be as affected by John's death as Dean did. I don't think Dean blamed Sam for John's death like he appears to blame him for Charlie's, but he seemed to blame Sam for the division in the family, and so therefor objected to Sam's version of grieving having to do with John's wishes.

 

In either case, Dean seems to feel like he "earned" the grieving more than Sam. Dean is somewhat channeling John here, but he'd have to maybe run off and ignore the situation and/or be drinking heavily to complete the package.

[mertensia]

Yeah I'm not sure Dean's being rational at the moment about Charlie and grieving.

Apparently goodbye Styne ancestral home. How have they survived so long if they act like this all the time? Crowley would have obliterated them years ago just for being obnoxious.

[SueB]

Yeah I'm not sure Dean's being rational at the moment about Charlie and grieving.

Apparently goodbye Styne ancestral home. How have they survived so long if they act like this all the time? Crowley would have obliterated them years ago just for being obnoxious.

1) Yes, Dean's irrational, influenced by the Mark of Cain and hopefully knows better. It bothers me so much because of his tearful apology to Kevin when Kevin showed up as a ghost.  After that, who is DEAN to say Sam can't apologize?  BUT, I totally get Dean is in anger mode (as AwesomeO said....in S2 'just wants to hit something' state of grieving).  As someone who felt pissed last week (I love the person who came up with meme about 'the SPN Fandom to the writers: Don't touch me!'), I get the anger and lashing out. I know I totally skipped Denial and went straight to Anger.  I might have dipped my toe in and out of Bargaining.  I can't even make it to Depression and I'm years away (if ever) from Acceptance. 

 

2) Stynes certainly looking like they win the Darwin award due to the existence of Eldon.  I can't believe Eldon is the first over-the-top-arrogant ass out of the Styne family.  Unless it's a ruse to get Dean to find the Stynes, Eldon repeated the body left behind mistake.  In which case, he's smarter than he acted.  It IS possible -- because we see Dean under the knife in the Stynes basement and Stynes robbing the MoL and preparing to destroy it.  So for a few minutes, at least, the Stynes may look brilliant: access to MoC body, access to MoL bunker.  But they (of course) are underestimating Dean on a rage-bender.   

Edited May 12, 2015 by SueB

[catrox14]

Supernatural - The Prisoner (Sneak Peek):

Edited May 12, 2015 by catrox14

[catrox14]

You know. I'm having a hard time with the idea that the MoC is the only thing driving Dean to vengeance. Regular!Dean would do the same thing and has before, when he went after Dick Roman for killing Bobby. The only difference between regular!Dean and MoC!Dean is that he's just more physically powerful and he gets in the thrall of bloodlust.  That's scary for anyone in his vicinity.  But he doesn't have the First Blade, so he probably won't become as enthralled as he might be with the First Blade, which  BTW surely we'll seem him wield that thing again before the season's over. Also, am I the only one thinking that maybe Cas gave the FB back to Crowley since he owed him for the grace boost? 

 

Remember the pic Jensen tweeted of him being all bloody and the Knight's helmet was over his shoulder on the bookcase?  That had to be from this episode and now I'm really hoping that was a little spoiler hint from Jensen about a Knight of Hell.

 

Being the demon!Dean trash that I am (WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO ME!?), I wouldn't mind at all if something the Stynes do causes demon!Dean to come out and whooo boy, demon!Dean is not gonna be happy with them trying to take his arm, which I would think is what they will try to do along with other organs. Then maybe we can see him fling someone across the room with a flip of his hand. And maybe when he comes back to the bunker, he'll be in demon!Dean mode. 

 

 

 

1) Yes, Dean's irrational, influenced by the Mark of Cain and hopefully knows better. It bothers me so much because of his tearful apology to Kevin when Kevin showed up as a ghost.  After that, who is DEAN to say Sam can't apologize?  BUT, I totally get Dean is in anger mode (as AwesomeO said....in S2 'just wants to hit something' state of grieving).  As someone who felt pissed last week (I love the person who came up with meme about 'the SPN Fandom to the writers: Don't touch me!'), I get the anger and lashing out. I know I totally skipped Denial and went straight to Anger.  I might have dipped my toe in and out of Bargaining.  I can't even make it to Depression and I'm years away (if ever) from Acceptance.

 

 

I have a little different perspective on this. I think(hope) there will be more to that conversation between Dean and Sam than him just saying you don't get to apologize. But even if that is all there is to it, IMO that isn't Dean telling Sam how to grieve. Dean gave Kevin a Hunter's funeral and he threw things around the lair but he didn't apologize to him. He told Cas he was stupid for doing everything he did. Then he and Cas took Crowley on the road trip to find Gadreel. He was in vengeance and redemption mode before he got the Mark and it was only when Kevin showed up in the bunker that he apologized. If not for that, I doubt he would have ever apologized, because IMO for Dean apologies without action to redemption or vengeance are meaningless. IMO that is what Dean is doing here with Sam.  My bet is that he's telling Sam you don't get to apologize unless and until you do something to make it right and even then you can't make it right, because he never could make right what happened to Kevin because of his choices.  Hell, Dean trying to make it right made things worse! 

 

But the other aspect is that Dean has not been out of control for a long time. It's bugging me that we keep being told how out of control or borderline out of control he has been, but it's not showing IMO other then Dean being edgy.  His stalking around Sam was a heightened version of his stalking around Sam in the past when he's been angry with Sam, like in Metamorphosis when he punched Sam twice.

 

I think going,  forwardDean is laser focused and he knows exactly what he wants and needs to do. I don't get the sense though that despite it being scary for anyone in the vicinity, that he will randomly go after anyone. He seems to have a filter now or more control. He bashed Ronnie's face into the table only AFTER Ronnie called Claire a bitch. I don't think he was going to do that until that happened. Granted, I think he was looking for a reason, but there seems to be more judicious use of Dean's whatever it is than before.  He chose to not unleash on those kids in the bar that Rowena hexed.

 

I don't think he'll slaughter indiscriminately now like he did in The Things We Left Behind. But that almost makes Dean even more scary because now his choice to kill is purposeful and I doubt anyone is going to be able to stop him. And I don't know whether that's better or worse. /meep

Edited May 12, 2015 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

You know. I'm having a hard time with the idea that the MoC is the only thing driving Dean to vengeance. Regular!Dean would do the same thing and has before, when he went after Dick Roman for killing Bobby. The only difference between regular!Dean and MoC!Dean is that he's just more physically powerful and he gets in the thrall of bloodlust.  That's scary for anyone in his vicinity.

{Snip}

 

I don't think he'll slaughter indiscriminately now like he did in The Things We Left Behind. But that almost makes Dean even more scary because now his choice to kill is purposeful and I doubt anyone is going to be able to stop him. And I don't know whether that's better or worse. /meep

 

The interesting thing is that the monster equivalent maybe might be werewolf Madison. I'm not saying that Dean is a monster here, I'm just saying that his modus operandi sort of reminds me of how Madison was as a werewolf as compared to other types of monsters (who for example kill for food or fun, but aren't hitting specific targets). She may not be representative of all werewolves, but she at least didn't go around killing just random people when she turned into a werewolf. She targeted specific people who had been a "threat" to her or pissed her off in the past. As regular Madison, she might have thought about or wished she could do something about her boss or her ex-boyfriend, but as werewolf Madison, she just did it. On steroids. Her wrath was targeted but maybe unproportionally brutal. And I can see Dean influenced by the mark maybe being similar. Normally he might think about revenge or even act on it some by targeting Eldon, but he'd likely have more of a plan. With the influence of the mark, Dean's maybe just going to do it, brutally and on a wider scale and likely with less concern for the consequences and/or safety of his methods.

 

Now whether most werewolves eventually end up like that sister who just went around killing for fun or they can continue to control it (like Garth and friends or Crissy(?)) is an interesting question, and may also apply to Dean. The question will be once Dean gets set off like this, will he be able to continue being specific in his targets, or will the mark eventually want too many victims to keep it targeted? Or will it even want or coerce Dean into going for "innocents" because they might "feel" better * - like a bigger fish like Abaddon felt better? Will Dean be able to keep semi-rational thought in it? And I guess that's the question that's going to be the most critical - and maybe most difficult for Dean - to answer.

 

* Since we already know that the mark wanted Dean to use the Book of the Damned to do "bad" things, so after a while killing monsters and people who likely deserve it may not be "bad" enough any more for its liking, and it might want Dean to kill more indiscriminately.

Edited May 12, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[Aeryn13]

 

I don't think he'll slaughter indiscriminately now like he did in The Things We Left Behind

 

He warned them about engaging him yet they not only didn`t listen but kicked him when he was on the ground. To me, that is the opposite of killing "indiscriminately". If he had then marched out and slaughtered Sam and Claire as well or gone off and whacked a couple people just because they were there, that would fit the bill. But despite excessive force, it was still self defense in that episode.

 

Heck, if the promo is even halfway correct and Dean kills those who strapped him to the operating table, that is still self defense. If he then goes to the bunker where the Stynes are trying to burn it down and whatnot, he still has a legit reason to kill them. Outside of the writers making them ridiculously evil and kinda unhuman in the first place, that is.

 

So far Dean has not killed indiscriminately once with the Mark. And I doubt he will in the next two eps either. It`s not how the show rolls. 

[catrox14]

I shouldn't have used the word "indiscriminately" because that's not really what I mean at all. Also I never said Dean killing Randy and the Rapists wasn't self defense. In fact, I have argued ad nauseum that it was self defense ad nauseum in this very forum. I have zero problem with Dean killing all of them.

 

What I was trying to get at is that Dean is in control now.  I think he has a handle on how much 'bloodlust' he can manage without it taking him over. I'm thinking back to Abaddon and how he couldn't stop stabbing her until Sam intervened or how he unloaded the entire clip into the shapeshifter. I suspect that when he killed Randy and the Rapists there was more influence of the bloodlust that fueled him. Even when he killed Cain, unless it happened off screen, he didn't stab Cain over and over.  

 

I'm saying that NOW he's less likely to let the bloodlust manage his planning and his behavior as we saw with the kids in the bar. I think he'll have a plan of sorts now, and he won't waste his energy on those that are just bystanders, if that is what he did with Randy and the Rapists. He still feeds it with vampire kills and what have you but IMO he's very much managing his "addiction" .

 

I'm saying that now, when he goes after the Stynes, it will be a combination of purpose and who he wants to kill versus possibly going over board to feed the bloodlust.

[catrox14]

Supernatural - Inside: The Prisoner:

Producer's preview. MEEP no seriously. This is upsetting. :(

[SueB]

Oh Dean.  That sucked. I know it's rage, but it's still nopeville for me. Don't get me wrong. Still 100% love the guy.  Just wish he wasn't feeling this way.

[oliverwendell]

Yikes.  The only thing I can say to that is there is no way Dean would wish Sam dead in place of Charlie if he didn't have the Mark.  Just nope.  No way.  But man, there's gonna have to be some apologizing and some hugging when this is all over.

 

Also, anyone who thought the writers wouldn't make Dean into too much of an asshole with the Mark because they were too unwilling to dirty him up?  I don't think they can say that any more.  Because he looks pretty dirty from where I'm sitting.

Edited May 13, 2015 by fourteenwords

[SueB]

Yikes.  The only thing I can say to that is there is no way Dean would wish Sam dead in place of Charlie if he didn't have the Mark.  Just nope.  No way.  But man, there's gonna have to be some apologizing and some hugging when this is all over.

 

Also, anyone who thought the writers wouldn't make Dean into too much of an asshole with the Mark because they were too unwilling to dirty him up?  I don't think they can say that any more.  Because he looks pretty dirty from where I'm sitting.

I know.

 

Dean's defining characteristic is his love for Sammy.  The ONLY time he's ever been like this was:

1) That civil war wrathful spirit dude oozing green slime outta his ear

2) When he was a DEMON and told what's-his-butt to go ahead and kill Sam in the S10 premier

3) When he was a DEMON and chased Sam thru the bunker

 

So, while it sure SEEMS like just uber-pissed off Dean -- my gut says the Mark is really twisting his soul.  He's saying the ONE thing to Sammy that would really hurt (it's your fault and I wish it was you and not her).  I'm pretty gutshot over the comment.  But it's so far out of Dean's normal personality, it almost makes it easier to accept he's altered.  If it was just "it's your fault", I'd think Dean is really pissed and saying hurtful stuff.  But even saying he wishes Sam was dead instead of Charlie?  Even Cain recognized that Sam's death would break Dean. 

[7kstar]

so should I watch with my eyes closed?

 

All I can say, not a happy camper...not at all.  Now it looks like let's make both brother's look like asses.  :(  My guess is both brother's get in trouble...oh yeah...NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SueB]

So I watched again, trying to inure myself to Dean's vitriol. And I just gotta ask... does anyone else think Sam/Rowena would be an awesome Crack!Ship? Just me then?

[rue721]

Wow, that's pretty out of character.

 

Poor Sam, he must miss his real brother so much. This isn't Dean.

 

And I just gotta ask... does anyone else think Sam/Rowena would be an awesome Crack!Ship? Just me then?

 

Not just you, I brought up that crack!ship a while back. It's totally batshit but...They've got some real chemistry, and in a sense, she's just Sam's type. Smart, takes charge, kinda bitchy and kinda a monster. Who woulda thought.

 

Also, I enjoy imagining Crowley's reaction to that.

[GirlyGeek]

My heart. It hurts. All my fandoms are killing people I like and now this? Dean is not Dean. Poor Sam

[catrox14]

Guys, this is worse than Demon!Dean. My only hope is that maybe this is really demon!Dean talking. I just cannot accept Dean ever saying something like that. Not ever. Ugh.

[AwesomO4000]

And I just gotta ask... does anyone else think Sam/Rowena would be an awesome Crack!Ship? Just me then?

 

She's just too evil for my tastes - even as a crack!ship...I might be able to see it more if I could get beyond that, but she's just too casual about killing people... waaay too casual about killing people. I'd rather Sam and creepy ass Becky than Sam /Rowena, and that's saying something. Sorry : (  (I'm still Sam/Jody at this point if anybody. Sam/Cas is my crack!ship.)

[mertensia]

Oh I could see an awesome comedy with Rowena always trying to kill people and an exasperated or bitchfacing (depending on the person) Sam explaining that NO she can't. Then the squabbling about why not and she finally gives in by turning them into chickens or kittens and then Sam has to Latinate them human again while she seethes.

******

Yeak MoC or not Dean is out to obliterate and this is never ever a good thing. The Stynes should just make out their wills now.

[Demented Daisy]

Eh, Dean is probably lashing out at Sam because he knows that it's Dean's fault.  He took on the Mark recklessly.  Didn't, for a second, think about possible consequences.  Didn't care, if it meant that he could kill Abbadon.  

 

So, yeah, Charlie's death?  That's on Dean.  He can blame Sam all he wants, or Cas for not protecting Charlie, but none of it would have happened if he hadn't taken on the Mark.

 

Sooner or later, that reality is going to catch up to Dean and I'm not looking forward to the angsty fall out.

[catrox14]

Dean already knows he fucked up back when he didn't let Sam die. Kevin and Charlie would be alive. So maybe his anger is really based in "If I had let Sam die, none of this would have happened" but it's coming out as "I wish you were dead instead of charlie"

Edited May 13, 2015 by catrox14

[mertensia]

Yeah I think deep down Dean blames himself. He'd blame himself if she'd gotten pancreatic cancer and died.

[catrox14]

I would find it refreshing if Dean could find a way to share the blame with Sam. I mean we could devolve into the never ending blame game and trace it all the way back to Mary for making the first deal. Of course now with Cains deal with Lucifer we could just decide to blame Cain for everything and the DNA of death and deal making. But I find it more helpful to blame everyone for their roles in the shit rolling downhill.

But ultimately it's on Metatron and Crowley. They both planned for this. Metatron had a spell to make the angels fall which ended up with Gadreel free and then he uses Gadreel to kill Kevin. Crowley knew enough to take the chance on manipulating Dean into the spot where he will make that deal for the Mark.

I would find it interesting if we found out that Crowley and Metatron had been in cahoots the whole time to take down the Winchesters from the inside out. Sowing the seeds if distrust and mistrust.

[Aeryn13]

 

So, yeah, Charlie's death?  That's on Dean.  He can blame Sam all he wants, or Cas for not protecting Charlie, but none of it would have happened if he hadn't taken on the Mark.

 

Interesting how Dean is at fault for everything. Last week there was a lot about it being Charlie`s choice and being a grown woman and plot stupidity and everything but apparently Dean being to blame overrides everything and every personal choice others made as well as the culpabiliity of the people who actually killed her.. 

 

Well, they sure aren`t pulling their punches with the character now. It`s basically an offering for a hate-fest. And now that we`re finally seeing true effects of the MOC, I already read a lot about how this must be ALL him, no Mark influences in sight.  Because Dean has always been so hateful and all, I guess. And there is a big difference between anger - which he has been - and hate - which IMO is something new. 

[DittyDotDot]

I definitely think Charlie is dead because Charlie put herself in a stupid place--she had choices and knew the risks and still chose to be there--but I can see that Dean is probably thinking it's all his fault and lashing out at Sam as a way to misplace guilt right now. He did the same thing after John died. He knew his dad it was dead and it was probably because of him that Sam lost a dad too. Quite frankly, this is exactly the reaction I expected from Dean so I'm kinda bored with the idea already.

 

The more things change, the more they stay the same on this show.

[oliverwendell]

 

Well, they sure aren`t pulling their punches with the character now. It`s basically an offering for a hate-fest. And now that we`re finally seeing true effects of the MOC, I already read a lot about how this must be ALL him, no Mark influences in sight.  Because Dean has always been so hateful and all, I guess. And there is a big difference between anger - which he has been - and hate - which IMO is something new.

 

Yes, I'm hearing that, too, and I don't even venture far outside this forum.  I'm not sure what the writers intend by this, but the cynical part of me wonders if they are trying to even the score between Dean and Season 8 Sam.  In other words, if Sam's failure to look for Dean in Purgatory was the worst thing Sam has ever done to Dean, and turned some viewers irrevocably against the character, maybe the writers are trying to fix that by having Dean do something equally rude and unforgivable to Sam.  Like look him in the face and tell him he wishes he were dead.  That would be poor writing, in my mind, but I'm not entirely sure Carver is above that sort of thing.

 

On the other hand, the more generous part of me wants to give them the benefit of the doubt.  Maybe they are trying to show us (rather than just tell us) the Mark's influence is growing by having Dean do something that goes so directly against the way he is wired that it can't be explained any other way than by the Mark.  Telling Sam he wishes he were dead instead of Charlie would qualify, in my mind.  

 

I guess I'll just have to wait and see how it plays out over these next two episodes.  

[rue721]

It's Jacob Styne's fault that Charlie's dead. She didn't murder herself.

 

Dean saying that it should have been Sam's body on the funeral pyre goes way beyond anything that he or Sam have said to each other before. After John died, Dean's angry outbursts were about things like Sam not dealing with John's death that well, or about whether John should have let him die. He never said anything NEAR "it should have been you."

 

This is much more similar to how Dean talked to Sam when he was a demon than how he usually talks to him. It makes me think that Dean might be more Mark/demon than he is himself at this point.

 

I'm surprised to be so taken aback by something as small as Dean saying something nasty to Sam. But wow, I would never have expected that to come out of Dean's mouth. It's so unlike him that I just can't believe that it IS him. That must be the Mark talking.