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turnitwayup

By turnitwayup
in Castle [V]

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WendyCR72
WendyCR72

Let me introduce you to How I Met Your Mother...

Sara2009
Sara2009

Tbh, this drama is more interesting than the show has been in quite some time.

oberon55
oberon55

This is completely true. But at the same time I watch TV for escape. I watch all kinds of shows & have different expectations depending on the show. When I watch gritty shows like Breaking Bad or

CheshireCat

CheshireCat

43 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

But I also don't get why they haven't decided. Nathan signed, Hawley and Winter are onboard, Stana's definitely out, what else do they need? I don't think they'd hold up announcing because of an issue with Jon or Seamus's contracts, or even Molly Quinn's.  So what gives?

I read that one of the reasons why Criminal Minds wasn't renewed sooner because the network wanted to negotiate reduced license fees. So maybe, while we're all wondering, it's just something as simple as that.

Or they're still debating over pilots.

 

1 hour ago, verdana said:

I couldn't believe it when Marlowe had the nerve to blame the new directors for some of the show's failings under his stewardship, that was pathetic. It was HIS show and if the more inexperienced directors were falling short of the mark or not doing what he wanted then why didn't he do something about it?

 

Well, that's a different question. But I don't know if Marlowe was on set all day, every day, I know that many exec producers aren't, so there might have been little he could have done about it. Once you see the finished product, you can give out directions, however, what those who get the directions do with them is another matter. So, even if he tried to do something about it, maybe the directors/writers etc didn't apply his directives?

Fact is, as the performer, you're a puppet. And you can be the greatest actor or dancer or painter or whatever else. If the tools that you get are only mediocre than your product can only be that good.

WendyCR72

WendyCR72

3 minutes ago, TWP said:

Busy place this afternoon after such quiet all week.  Wonder why?  ::scratches head:: ::crosses eyes:: ::winks::

PTB: Announce the damned thing already so we can get on with drowning our sorrows (whatever the sorrows may be).

Watch, ABC will wait 'til Monday, just to piss folks off further!  :-P

TWP

TWP

(edited)
8 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

Watch, ABC will wait 'til Monday, just to piss folks off further!  :-P

ABC never said they would announce at all.  Deadline would be the ones who warrant our verbal knives and pitchforks.  Of course, I got put on time out over there for saying that statements that start with "I hear" are not real journalism, so any true pitchforking should be done via Twitter ;-).

Edited by TWP
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MaryM47

MaryM47

A quote from Robert King re the ending of The Good Wife that all show writers would do well to follow (from ew.com):

Quote

 It’s almost mindless to keep writing as if there is no end. That’s not really storytelling. That’s just like trying to imitate life or about making money. It helped us kind of feel that there was some shape to the series.

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WendyCR72

WendyCR72

Reading comments from a number of places from Beckett fans, I admire their passion. However, looking at it objectively, I do wonder if the seeming swell of overly-devoted support can hurt Katic going forward.

I know it's basically the loud and the few, but if you have fans attacking TPTB and costars and just generally not acting as adults, would anyone want to take on any actor with such baggage?

Every actor and actress no doubt has this, but it just seems that this could hurt in the long run, SK, NF, anyone. As unfair as it is, it could reflect on the actor. Ditto the "leak", if ABC really was blindsided with the initial announcement.

I do wish Katic luck in future endeavors, but I can't help but wonder if she should go one of two ways: Implore the more devoted to respect the decision and be happy for her future projects or distance herself from it all, maybe better for future employment.

BTS is a hell of a lot more fascinating than the show, IMO.

 

ETA: Because a show is very different from a shoe!

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madmaverick

madmaverick

17 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

/So maybe we're all just reading too much into Twitter?

Ha,  You think? ;)  I find it funny that some people always decipher tweets by Castle actors as being related to fellow Castle actors, as if there's nothing else in the lives of these people but Castle 24/7.  

That said, people can judge for themselves whether this is Castle related.

Quote

 

Jose Molina ‏@JoseMolinaTV  

I don't understand people who campaign to cancel shows. Don't like it? Don't watch it. Why screw over those who still want to watch?

 

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KaveDweller

KaveDweller

4 minutes ago, madmaverick said:

That said, people can judge for themselves whether this is Castle related.

Jose Molina ‏@JoseMolinaTV  

I don't understand people who campaign to cancel shows. Don't like it? Don't watch it. Why screw over those who still want to watch?

That guy also tweeted specifically about how millions of people still want to watch Nathan, so he is definitely talking about Castle.  I think the number of people who still want to watch is not necessarily known (and I guess ABC is gambling on it being high), but I agree with his point.  I'd certainly rather it end than go on without Beckett, but I'm not going to go as far as campaigning about it. 

WendyCR72

WendyCR72

2 minutes ago, CheshireCat said:

If Mr Molina was indeed referring to Castle then it seems he needs to take a closer look. I find it pretty clear why people are asking for cancellation and it's not really because they don't like the show anymore.

But there ARE those, some right in this thread, who don't mind the change and would be willing to give the revamp a chance.

So why should their wants be ignored, either?

It's no win, but I get what Mr. Molina is saying. Sure, maybe the revamp would fail. But maybe it would survive.

But if those that like the old formula don't want to watch a new one, they can turn the channel.

I personally have no investment either way, but one side is going to be disappointed. No way around it.

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WendyCR72

WendyCR72

I see Molina is/was a writer for the show. So his ire makes more sense to me. The writing may not be all that good now, but it's a pay check. Not sure I'd be all that jazzed if folks were trying to take away my income, either.

That said, if ABC axes the show now or later, it won't last too much longer. So I hope Mr. Molina is thinking ahead and exploring other opportunities.

BlakesMomma

BlakesMomma

(edited)
48 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

I see Molina is/was a writer for the show. So his ire makes more sense to me. The writing may not be all that good now, but it's a pay check. Not sure I'd be all that jazzed if folks were trying to take away my income, either.

That said, if ABC axes the show now or later, it won't last too much longer. So I hope Mr. Molina is thinking ahead and exploring other opportunities.

He's not a Castle writer, if that's what you mean. Or are you referring to Agent Carter?

Edited by BlakesMomma
WendyCR72

WendyCR72

2 minutes ago, BlakesMomma said:

He's not a Castle writer, if that's what you mean. 

Not now, perhaps, but this was on Wiki:

More recently, he has written the episodes "Famous Last Words" and "Suicide Squeeze" for the television series Castle

Also said he was co-EP at some point. So he does have a connection, be it maybe in the past. Either way, it sounds like those BTS are getting testy!

Mom x 3

Mom x 3

On May 5, 2016 at 5:31 PM, TWP said:

Still rooting for all a dream, it was all a book reading, it was all a TV script he was showing to ABC (too meta?).....

Please don't kill Beckett.

PS:  I'm still wondering about the last item on this page....had to divorce her because he couldn't have children? ::chuckles::

I'm with you.  I think we will be shown that Kate Beckett is the name of the actress hired to play Nikki Heat, and that Castle will not have been married at all.  

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TWP

TWP

I had already mentioned once or twice how the leaks didn't help Stana at all, but I didn’t think about the damage that her more over the top fans might do. Yes, I would think networks wouldn't want that troup to come along, so they'd likely think twice about hiring Stana. I think it might be a great time for her to make a statement to quiet them down. I doubt she will. The current craziness probably makes her feel better about things, but I wonder how she'll feel if someone tells her "no" in the future because of some of her fanbase. For comparison, I'll have to go look and see how McDreamy's fans behaved when he was cut. Maybe internet fans are just like that.

I think this announcement delay isn't a good sign. Or--I know--maybe Toks is holding out and they need to get her on board before they finalize things!!!! I just made myself laugh.

Yep, Molina is a past Castle writer, wrote some pretty good  episodes if my memory serves in my favorite seasons, 1 and 2. I agree with him.  Vote with your feet! Somehow the only job that seems to matter is Stana's. There was previously no outrage about Penny. Reading tea leaves, maybe Penny's ouster was to make financial room for Stana's raise. Who knows.

sugarrush

sugarrush

I think it's understandable that fans who've been emotionally invested in Castle and Beckett for years want the show to get cancelled. They know they've shot two endings. And they know that if the show goes on without Beckett, they're gonna go with an ending most fans won't like, because it can't possibly end well for Caskett. It's not about wanting people to lose their jobs. It's about fighting for a couple they've spent 8 years rooting for. And if I worked on Castle and found out that they fired 50% of what made the show what it was? I'd be looking for a new job just in case, anyway.

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WendyCR72

WendyCR72

1 minute ago, westwingfan said:

It seems that Ausiello jumped the gun by posting this and then having to pull it. I can't seem to post the tweet properly so you can see what was pulled but it was a picture of fillione in his Writer vest with the first few lines of an article reporting that show had been renewed.

 

 

Hmm. Ausiello has sources. Either ABC is having second thoughts OR ABC is trying to hold the renewal announcement for Monday. Or maybe (unrealistic, given the age of the 'net) upfronts? Either way, he had to get that tidbit from somewhere!

westwingfan

westwingfan

14 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

 

Hmm. Ausiello has sources. Either ABC is having second thoughts OR ABC is trying to hold the renewal announcement for Monday. Or maybe (unrealistic, given the age of the 'net) upfronts? Either way, he had to get that tidbit from somewhere!

With all the online sites gradually weighting their articles more and more towards a renewal, as you say probably based on some substance, could ABC really be wavering at this late hour, or just the latest example of how they have mismanaged this affair. The Deadline article on pilots suggested that some final decisions were still being made, so could ABC be reconsidering something as a possible replacement even now. It would seem from Tamala's comments that ABC's original strategy may have been to announce the renewal after the finale to give the cliff hanger more impact at the same time as the cast changes, so that any backlash didn't impact on the final few episodes, but that's been blown out of the water. Wouldn't it have made sense to announce the renewal already to get all the negative issues out of the way, this way the renewal announcement is just going to prolong all the twittering, or do they consider any chatter about the show is positive?

verdana

verdana

I saw on twitter a collection of messages this fan had been sending to ABC over the past few weeks and one of them said "It's not *just* a TV show. It's a beacon of hope in a world that needs it." 

In a world where it looks as if Trump may get the nomination, yeah it needs all the hope it can get right now lol. 

I'm perplexed at the delay too, seems to me it's been a foregone conclusion they're moving towards a S9. 

  • Love 1
verdana

verdana

(edited)
7 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

Well, that's a different question. But I don't know if Marlowe was on set all day, every day, I know that many exec producers aren't, so there might have been little he could have done about it. Once you see the finished product, you can give out directions, however, what those who get the directions do with them is another matter. So, even if he tried to do something about it, maybe the directors/writers etc didn't apply his directives?

Fact is, as the performer, you're a puppet. And you can be the greatest actor or dancer or painter or whatever else. If the tools that you get are only mediocre than your product can only be that good.

But irrespective of if Marlowe was around or not who does the buck stop with? The guy in charge because Marlowe is responsible ultimately for everything that goes out (okay the network has the final say) but Marlowe has to see the final product and it's no good the boss blaming his underlings for the show's failings. If they don't do what he says then it's on him to do something about it. 

As for the actors being poorly directed, I use the example of the Christmas episode, the ending saw some of the worst acting from Stana and Nathan I've ever seen and certainly the director should have stepped in but equally it's on the actors to do the best they can which would have improved things greatly even with the uneven writing but they clearly have both checked out at this point more often than not.  As an actor they can choose to be a puppet if they wish but it's not obligatory, they can do things to make even dross better or "rise above" as SweetTooth rightly suggested and be praised for it instead of just going with the flow. I don't believe many actors are just puppets, they have power to influence, some have a great deal of power the more famous they become and have no qualms in using it to get what they want. 

Edited by verdana
verdana

verdana

Trawling twitter is painful right now in more ways than one, fans are posting pictures and gifs that remind me of what the show used to be.

Quote

 

Sana Katic Croatia ‏@StanaKaticCRO  9h9 hours ago

We watch it because of this. Because of them. This is #Castle. Not just one of them. #NoCastleS9

https://twitter.com/StanaKaticCRO/status/728698252812505089


 

I loved that little moment between them in Cops & Robbers and then of course there was the wonderful end scene (admittedly blighted with an interruption). God what I wouldn't give to have that level of chemistry, decent writing and depth of feeling back between them which was present back then.  

westwingfan

westwingfan

9 minutes ago, verdana said:

Trawling twitter is painful right now in more ways than one, fans are posting pictures and gifs that remind me of what the show used to be.

I loved that little moment between them in Cops & Robbers and then of course there was the wonderful end scene (admittedly blighted with an interruption). God what I wouldn't give to have that level of chemistry, decent writing and depth of feeling back between them which was present back then.  

And that was a TPW episode, it's like he's had a lobotomy since he was made showrunner.

westwingfan

westwingfan

27 minutes ago, verdana said:

Yeah I know it was him, it's one of my all time favourites, bizarre isn't it? Where did it all go wrong lol....guess he's not showrunner material. 

Remember that scene in That 70s Show when they are acting out the scripts provided by Martha and Castle says "My God, who wrote this?" I wonder if anyone was tempted to say that for real in recent seasons LOL

TWP

TWP

7 hours ago, sugarrush said:

I think it's understandable that fans who've been emotionally invested in Castle and Beckett for years want the show to get cancelled. They know they've shot two endings. And they know that if the show goes on without Beckett, they're gonna go with an ending most fans won't like, because it can't possibly end well for Caskett. It's not about wanting people to lose their jobs. It's about fighting for a couple they've spent 8 years rooting for. And if I worked on Castle and found out that they fired 50% of what made the show what it was? I'd be looking for a new job just in case, anyway.

It's about fighting. for a. FICTIONAL. couple, whereas for the people working on the show, the jobs. are. REAL.  Thus, what you're saying is no justification at all.

I think it's hard for some people to even grasp anything but what they're seeing on the TV.  And I personally think those people should probably take a break because they've crossed a line that isn't emotionally healthy for them.  It's an obsession, not normal.

When it's fiction, you have the option of deciding how it ends. You can pretend the show ended in Season 7!  People should pick an ending based on what's aired already and enjoy that! 

  • Love 3
Tim

Tim

29 minutes ago, TWP said:

It's about fighting. for a. FICTIONAL. couple, whereas for the people working on the show, the jobs. are. REAL.  Thus, what you're saying is no justification at all.

I feel it is more like the example someone gave about Would you go to your favorite restaurant IF they removed 50% of your favorite meals JUST to save the jobs of those still working at the restaurant, Save me the speech, those in the job know they are only employed one season at a time and choose to work in that industry, I worry about their jobs as much as they worry about mine, Empathy yes, but they chose the field and reap the rewards or consequences based on the product they turn out.  Hanning and Creasey saw the writing and bailed, who knows how many others IF they get S9 which for the remainder of the crew I would not wish harm, BUT my choice is made and I really don't think You know the entire FANDOM well enough to make a statement about crossing the line or unhealthy behaviors, respect, but disagree totally with your argument.

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Kromm

Kromm

54 minutes ago, TWP said:

It's about fighting. for a. FICTIONAL. couple, whereas for the people working on the show, the jobs. are. REAL.  Thus, what you're saying is no justification at all.

I think it's hard for some people to even grasp anything but what they're seeing on the TV.  And I personally think those people should probably take a break because they've crossed a line that isn't emotionally healthy for them.  It's an obsession, not normal.

When it's fiction, you have the option of deciding how it ends. You can pretend the show ended in Season 7!  People should pick an ending based on what's aired already and enjoy that! 

You've certainly a right to think that way, and I understand on one level, but I can't disagree more.

First, on the subject of what a lot of us call "fan entitlement". I agree it's out of control, destructive and often outright ridiculous. That said, for me it's not either/or with this issue. I believe there's a line to be drawn. If the fan entitlement is interfering with a LEGITIMATE artistic vision of it's creator, then the entitled fandom can--and I won't pull my punches here--go fuck themselves. They can feel how they want (including betrayed or angry), but if they simply always had misunderstood a creator's vision and put their own demands on a story or characters, the fault is on them. 

But for me things are totally different if the show is question isn't (or isn't anymore) the vision of someone who created and steered the idea as their vision. If a show never was, or no longer is, a product of an Auteur, as the French would call this kind of person. Some may laugh at the pretentious sounding name (which sound like "author" but more often refers to a director or producer, and today would most likely be a series creator), but it's a meaningful term. If a show has devolved simply into some corporate product, without the vision of the original figure who made the whole thing work in the first place, then the fans point of view is far more important (and legitimate). Some might argue the moment an Auteur figure leaves, perhaps something should end, but if we're realistic and recognize that this just doesn't happen, then the only reason to support a show still existing IS fan service. Something that's horrifying when in the way of a real vision, but at least in some reasonable form seems to make some sense in this situation. 

Just saying "make your own ending in your mind', by the way, is really insulting, in my opinion. Clearly you don't have a specific target in this case for the comment, but I'm just saying over all that it's an insulting concept.  It totally removes any responsibility for misuse of characters, franchises, etc. and acts like readers/viewers shouldn't care at all about context, but should just make themselves intentionally schizophrenic in how they appreciate their art/entertainment. Should people get super-worked up about things that aren't real?  Of course not. But a "make your own ending in your mind" suggestion is too far the other way. It toes the line of insulting any critical reaction people have as inherently childish, of just dismissing them as idiots.

For me, more realistic advice is just "have some perspective". I'd never suggest people shouldn't be upset, or that they should play make believe and make their own mental firewall between what they like and don't like. Instead I'd say that they should just have enough perspective to put a cap on how much they let that upset affect them. It IS in the end just a TV show. The reactions are legitimate (and it's a low blow to act like they're not)... just at the end of the day not that important to their lives. I'll quote William Shatner when he said "Get a Life People" in that SNL skit. People misunderstood that joke in its time. It wasn't the intent of the SNL writers who came up with it to de-legitimatize the feelings of the fans the skit was parodying. It was more a statement that they could feel what they want, but shouldn't let it affect the rest of their lives. This is no different, IMO.  People have every right to be upset at how this show is being handled, and because it's not any kind of controlled artistic vision, maybe as I said even MORESO. They just need to take a breath every once and a while and think a bit about how much they want to worry/rant about it--how much energy and frustration it's worth.

  • Love 3
Kromm

Kromm

(edited)
54 minutes ago, Tim said:

I feel it is more like the example someone gave about Would you go to your favorite restaurant IF they removed 50% of your favorite meals JUST to save the jobs of those still working at the restaurant, Save me the speech, those in the job know they are only employed one season at a time and choose to work in that industry, I worry about their jobs as much as they worry about mine, Empathy yes, but they chose the field and reap the rewards or consequences based on the product they turn out.  Hanning and Creasey saw the writing and bailed, who knows how many others IF they get S9 which for the remainder of the crew I would not wish harm, BUT my choice is made and I really don't think You know the entire FANDOM well enough to make a statement about crossing the line or unhealthy behaviors, respect, but disagree totally with your argument.

Yeah,for me it's a total non-starter to talk about the jobs of the people who work for the show, as if that creates a condition where something should remain going as a production simply because of that. The viewing audience are, at the end of the day, consumers. While as I've said in my last response there can with some things be a strong component of artistic vision that can be more important than the feeling of these consumers, if that artistic vision is removed from something, as has clearly happened with this show, at the end of the day that consumer relationship is certain what remains most prominently. So yeah. just because people work making what's apparently become an inferior product doesn't mean there's some inherent obligation to them to continue supporting it. That's just not how a free market system works. If there was an argument to be made that something with artistic merit was being threatened, that's the time when we go against the free market. But simply out of obligation to support something that STOPPED having merit, because people work there?  No.

Edited by Kromm
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sugarrush

sugarrush

2 hours ago, TWP said:

It's about fighting. for a. FICTIONAL. couple, whereas for the people working on the show, the jobs. are. REAL.  Thus, what you're saying is no justification at all.

I think it's hard for some people to even grasp anything but what they're seeing on the TV.  And I personally think those people should probably take a break because they've crossed a line that isn't emotionally healthy for them.  It's an obsession, not normal.

When it's fiction, you have the option of deciding how it ends. You can pretend the show ended in Season 7!  People should pick an ending based on what's aired already and enjoy that! 

Well, that not-so-normal obsession is one of the reasons these people have even HAD a job for this long. And it's not just the die-hards who would rather have the show end on a high note: https://www.facebook.com/Castle/?fref=ts 

Do I think people should actively send ABC messages asking for cancellation? No. Do I think they're perfectly justified to openly express on their personal social media accounts that they're not gonna watch S9 and would rather have it end now? Yes. Besides, even IF people ask for cancellation, I doubt it'll change anything. If the overwhelmingly negative response to Katic's exit won't change anything, then nothing will. 

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CheshireCat

CheshireCat

(edited)
15 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

But there ARE those, some right in this thread, who don't mind the change and would be willing to give the revamp a chance.

So why should their wants be ignored, either?

Well, everyone is welcome to start their own "campaign" so those who want the show renewed could set up a petition and do twitter calls etc, too (but I've not seen that, so I would think the majority of online supporters infavor of S9 doesn't care enough to bother) However, I still think that if they absolutely want to renew then they should do both - the happy ending and no cliffhanger and then write her out after that happy ending. There are a ton of possibilities for that and I think it would be the best to respect all of those loyal fans who've invested in the love story and suffered with their favorite couple as they suffered and rooted for them to get their happy ending and it'll give ABC the opportunity to go on and give those who want the more-or-less-spin-off a chance to continue watching and thus would respect those fans as well.

Edited by CheshireCat
Kromm

Kromm

See, I don't buy any of this. I think if you really wanted to keep the intellectual property of the show alive and egos weren't involved there could have been any number of ways.

The first--just as a stab in the dark because the character isn't that popular--would be the Castle 2.0 kind of concept, starring Alexis (who wow... magically has the same last name so you can call it the same thing) Again, the chance of this working is virtually nil, because I think viewers barely tolerate her much less would want to see her as a lead, but it would be a cheap solution to try and see if they get lucky, and then you simply have Rick drop in every few episodes to spike viewer interest (and an easy situation where Beckett showing up is easy to explain, because lets say Alexis relocated to start a Detective Agency in another city... bingo... explanation given why Dad might drop by but not necessarily Step-Mom--who has a JOB elsewhere whereas Dad can travel).

The second idea would be to end it with the happy ending and do something shows of this type often did in previous decades. Specials/Periodic TV movies. The number of Detective shows that did this reads almost like a history of the TV Detective genre. It would have been a reasonable way to carry on the show in a lower risk manner. 

Sonik Tooth

Sonik Tooth

4 hours ago, Tim said:

I feel it is more like the example someone gave about Would you go to your favorite restaurant IF they removed 50% of your favorite meals JUST to save the jobs of those still working at the restaurant, 

I think the example is not quite accurate. You don’t only just stop eating there (stop watching), you also start a campaign to shut the restaurant down (cancel the show). Surely there are still some people who might want to eat there because they like the other half of the food and maybe the location (might want to watch for other reasons than Caskett).

3 hours ago, Kromm said:

Just saying "make your own ending in your mind', by the way, is really insulting, in my opinion. Clearly you don't have a specific target in this case for the comment, but I'm just saying over all that it's an insulting concept.  It totally removes any responsibility for misuse of characters, franchises, etc. and acts like readers/viewers shouldn't care at all about context, but should just make themselves intentionally schizophrenic in how they appreciate their art/entertainment. Should people get super-worked up about things that aren't real?  Of course not. But a "make your own ending in your mind" suggestion is too far the other way. It toes the line of insulting any critical reaction people have as inherently childish, of just dismissing them as idiots.

But people make up their own story all the time. They take characters, twist them to their liking, twist storylines and write fanfiction about it.

2 hours ago, sugarrush said:

Well, that not-so-normal obsession is one of the reasons these people have even HAD a job for this long. And it's not just the die-hards who would rather have the show end on a high note: https://www.facebook.com/Castle/?fref=ts 

I don’t think the ardent fans on social media are responsible for Castle’s long run. What they do is enhancing the show’s visibility by posting reviews on media sites, creating their own sites, talking about it on Twitter etc. This kind of online word-of-mouth recommendation may persuade other people to give the show a shot and probably reach more people than my offline “Dude, you gotta watch Suits” to friends. That may save advertising money if you have some real multipliers in the fandom.

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