Sonik Tooth

Fat chance. As long as he likes what he’s doing/ is having fun, and as long as people respond positively about it, they won’t leave their bubble of moral uproar. It’s just too good a feeling to stop. Those infected by the zeitgeist of self-righteous zealousness will just adjust and expand the narrative. They’ll keep going as long as there is an echo chamber (which isn’t really hard to find on the internet/social media). Even so we don’t exactly know if Forbes was just too lazy to mention their respective other projects, it would be much of a coincidence that they both end up with 12 millions. (Even if one considers rounding differences to the next level – 11,5 or 12,5) If it is all Castle, I can’t really agree with the equal pay talk. If I work 32 hours per week and get the same money as my colleague who works 40 hours per week, I wouldn’t consider it equal payment. I don’t recall actual airtime of both characters but I remember a distinct unhappiness about fewer Beckett scenes in some corners. I won’t argue about the quality of the output from Castle writers as it seems to vary depending on theme, tone and – well - dialogue of an episode. And to each his/ her own. But with fanfic writers (and I might or might not be wrong as I haven’t read that many fanfics) for starters the ratio/ structure is mostly completely off. It’s not so much about the case of the week but a personal journey/ something personal/ something relationshippy. It’s not about all characters, it’s only an outtake prolonged or changed of something that has happened. It doesn’t really reflect what the series is about week after week. And of course they don’t actually write a script that also comes with certain restrictions as time and structure. It’s not anti-fanfic and I’m not diminishing any writing talent (as I myself have none) but they are taking a vast amount of liberties in story-telling and character descriptions as far as I have seen.

I was wondering about Stana’s two movies. But Forbes said nothing about them, so I guess one is to assume that the 12 m are all Castle related (they mentioned other endorsement and licensing deals inflating earnings regarding other actresses). No, idea. My guess is it’s just Season 8 with or without the overseas deals for the season. No syndication. That’s how I would interpret backend profit and how Forbes is able to estimate for 2016. Agree, it’s insane amounts. I’m also contemplating the corporate side. It’s a multi million/billion dollar business. Soccer, music, film, TV. The “talent”, drawing the money in, should be compensated accordingly IMO. The ratings were indeed lower for Season 8 but more or less consistent considering the overall drop in ratings network wide. The real drop - as you mentioned - happened from Season 6 to 7. I too would have thought that would make renegotiating Season 8 contracts pretty tough. Please don’t forget the extra money (and effort) for introducing the new character Hayley to compensate for her limited screentime! And I might add, the money for the two consultants in logistics who were hired to apportion script time of Castle and Beckett for the writers to ensure there is no breach of contract : Logistics: Yo, is it strictly 2 days per week or are we allowed to stretch it over the whole season. Is it whole workdays or if they only work for x hours a day, we get a third day à y hours? What about incidents due to force majeure? Are there additional constraints we have to consider? Other actors availabilities and sensitivities? Locations? Legal: Don’t get it wrong or he sues for compensation! Creative writer folks: I don’t really understand the optimization calculations we are getting from logistics. I think I messed it up. Nathan: Ha! That was more than two days a week. I want my money! ABC: We are soooo lucky. Nathan is our precious unicorn. Take my money! Mind you, could be all true:-)

I think there are cases where such distinction is indeed relevant (can’t think of one at the moment) but if there is tension in the workplace, I can’t work properly and someone makes me cry, I would definitely have issues.

Sorry, here's one link for example: http://www.usmagazine.com/entertainment/news/stana-katic-would-cry-in-her-castle-dressing-room-over-nathan-fillion-w203418 The relevant statement is in brackets of course. And I somehow don't believe that publicly commenting would have helped the issue because those people wanted to believe 1. it's all Nathan's fault and 2. Hollywood is sexist through and through. They would have spun it around again to make it fit. Like, she had to say it, she was pressured because she wouldn't get a job anymore if she stayed mum on the issue. Of course there's still a chance that it's all Nathan's fault but there's also a chance that for centuries the Katic's and the Fillion's are having a family feud each searching for the Umbilicus Mundi...

I’m going with the most unspectacular narrative: After playing Beckett for seven seasons with an increasing workload up to season 6 (I think season 7 was already a bit lighter), she may have wanted to expand her acting/directing/producing horizon or have a better work/life balance. Normal stuff you think about when you have been with a job for a few years. Sometimes it works out and you get to keep your old job at a reduced workload, but sometimes you are in a position where you are indispensible and the company rather hires somebody else if you aren’t willing to work full time. Something like that might have happened. She wasn’t asked back because it was a creative challenge (less Beckett like last season) and because she might be relatively expensive. Hence budgetary reasons. I would disagree. As soon as the tabloids picked up on alleged feuds and Nathan’s alleged nastiness towards her, Stana’s rep – when contacted – denied any issues with her co-star. I would solely hold the tabloids and blogs that withheld the information, and of course the “fans” responsible. Not only hardcore Stana fans but also those entitled entities who expected complete dedication and identification from the actors. And with those butt-sored fans, Nathan long lost their favour for not being a public shipper, for not publicly admiring Stana enough like his character admires Beckett, for treating the series like a job and “abandoning” them for valuing Firefly. And so these whiny little internet creatures strike back… As for the leaking, maybe somebody picked up on her tweeting about the end of an era or something like that and asked their "sources".

It’s legitimate to have an opinion or to formulate criticism. With or without further explanations, although those are indeed very helpful when entering a debate. I wouldn’t categorize the habit of name calling and threats as opinion/ criticism either. They are just that, insults and threats. (My fault in my last post, I wanted to highlight the contrary opinions by exaggeration) So, it being called (my) opinion or (my) criticism, I go d’accord with. Always have. Everybody else can decide if they agree with me, if they have something to add, if they would alleviate the comment a bit, if they think I’m nitpicking, if they can’t fathom it or if they indeed think it’s crazy. But by calling my criticism legitimate, I either imply that opposing opinions on that matter are illegitimate or that there is an official and objective standard or benchmark everybody is privy to. Or that my standard is the one that is setting the bar, meaning everybody else with e.g. no criticism is just too dumb, too deluded or too unobservant to get it. As an example, I take Beckett’s metamorphosis. What would be legitimate criticism as opposed to an opinion I have (which people can agree with or can’t fathom why this would be even up to debate?) What are the standards for realism in the Castle-Universe? Do Beckett’s heels outweigh Castle’s writer vest? If the showrunners say, we try to make the show as realistic as possible showing daily police work, and by that setting a (more or less known) objective standard, outcries about, well, nearly every aspect of Castle would become legitimate criticism. For me, this has nothing to do with being a good fan, bad fan or any fan at all. It’s about the difficulties evaluating art/ entertainment. And that is, as you and I both said, in the eye of the beholder. Mostly, only the creators do know what they want to achieve, which poses another problem. (Although critics should have figured out Adam Sandler movies by now ;-)

I would say it’s a case about social identity. Your group’s worth isn’t defined by your own group’s achievements but by comparison with another group. And social media makes it so easy, and maybe even addictive. You can be a whole different person, you can be important. You have more fave/likes when saying something derogatory about the other group than friends in real life. This may even persuade people to change sides if they think their chosen group is losing. Rabid fans aside, I find it hard to define legitimate criticism. When I’m looking for spoilers for other shows on this board, I sometimes find the criticism (about characters or storylines) so absurd, I wouldn’t even know how to start an argument. It’s because I thoroughly enjoy the show how it is. I don’t want characters to change or to get less screen time or to be a couple asap. I couldn’t care less about a plothole because it’s insignificant to me or the benefit/outcome outshines said plothole for me. On this board and elsewhere I can’t grasp the notion why the portrayal of the couple “Caskett” must be linked to BTS issues between Fillion and Katic. That’s not because I categorically rule out any tensions between them but because I don’t see a reasonable connection. Because they don’t like each other they won’t do what exactly? What would differ if they liked eacher other? It also may originate from the question what is Castle about (for you)? What defines the series (for you)? If I have a quick look at the season 7 reviews on amazon (4 and a half stars), it’s about the friendly antagonistic relationship between Castle and Beckett and the more outlandish cases. They mostly find it charming and funny… Insert inner fictional dialogue with my pet peeves about season 7 and the amazon reviewer bunch: (Me): But don’t you see the continuity problem? Castle was missing for weeks! Weeeeeks!!! (Them from amazon): Bugger off! That’s not what the show is about. It’s not a damn serial, you nitwit! (Me): A Richard Castle character study? Wut? Everything was totally plot driven! (That person who thinks season 7 was a RC character study): Chill! Many cases had a special Richard Castle connection or had him perform special tasks. You need to get your unhealthy obsession looked at! Guess it’s all in the eye of the beholder. And the boards seem to be more on the negative side in general.

Nah, she’s actually one of the Caskett-Brigade who also joined the Fillion’s-Fault-Brigade. And there may be some subsidiaries she’s also part of. To avoid sounding too snarky I confess to belong to the Leave-me-alone-with-Caskett-Brigade and the Fillion-Fangirl-Brigade. But without being overly grumpy towards the Caskett-Brigade and without being overly fannish in the Fillion-Fangirl-Brigade. If someone has an overly interest in the WTWT part of a TV series or the love story between main characters – good for them. If they try to get pseudo-scientific about it, and declare it one of the main reasons people watch (or stop watching because they don’t like the way it is portrayed) by citing sources that on closer examination might also have a different explanation - or even worse - neglect to mention other important details, I can only shake my head in desperation. (Or be in exasperation). This time round it’s the Nielsen Ratings listed on the Castle Wikipedia page. So, not very much to see there, but it seems Castle gained some overall traction the first four seasons. But then, whoops!, “the single best episode ever about a “will they or won’t they” couple getting together aired” and people don’t want to catch the next episode? Did they die of bliss? Or what’s wrong with those 2 Millions? Thankfully your syndication friends TNT and Broadcast are there to help the series out (also in the wiki article). It’s also speculation, but I think syndication brought new live viewers to Castle from which season 5 and 6 profited. But unfortunately with time, every source dries up. So Castle ended up losing viewers again. Rather quickly this time. If it happened because of illogical mythologies, raising a wrapped up storyline from the dead, Caskett wedding finally happening, people just getting more and more tired of police procedurals, the overall decline in viewership and ratings etc., that’s everybody’s guess.

I don’t unterstand why it needs to be explained again and again. Why do you stop watching a TV show? „Because I’m psychic and I gradually stop watching the show x episodes from now“ might not be the common answer. If you are dissatisfied with the content, the not watching always starts afterwards. Cause and effect. It isn’t really that complicated. Entitled fans and bullies. I make the distinction as follows: There are entitled fans that are also bullies. Some fans like to bend the circumstances of their perceived decline of the show to their liking or world view, social status or sensitivities. In a lot of those cases assumptions are made about people involved in the show which IMlegalO tend to be on the defamation of character side on the law. Spreading lies or half truths that could hurt someones character is textbook bullying. Furthermore, If I expect a TV show to cater to my liking, I’m entitled as fuck IMO. I said before it is the show’s prerogative what kind of story it wants to tell and how it wants to evolve. And one can very well see the difference between criticism of plotholes, characterization etc.and entitlement. And even unsolicited criticism or ridicule from someone like me without ever knowing the big picture is kinda sketchy.

I don't think it is a question about whether he can carry a show. They thought he could carry a show 8 years ago, so now with even more exposure to the public eye, why would they suddenly think otherwise? If it is worth to carry on with Castle without one established co-lead, that's another question. And who is to say he is as front and center as the first three years? If he didn’t re-up bis workload, Castle would become more of an ensemble show. Even more than this season. On another note: I find it funny that the showrunners were talking about season 9 being even less serial, and now ABC bought even more shows with probably strong serial elements. Communication problems?

I’m not surprised they cancelled the show per se (8 years old, low ratings, one remaining lead), but I’m rather surprised what lengths they went only to announce cancellation at the end. They greenlit going forward with only one of the show’s two leads, they had actors secured, showrunners working on outlines and probably a whole lot of other things that are time consuming. In the end, didn’t Castle meet its cost target? Or is it with existing shows just like with new pilots? Different choices being presented to pick from at the very end? As with all TV shows I’ve watched, I’m not particularly sad to see Castle gone. It’s entertainment, and the supply is enormous and time is precious. (And over the last 4 seasons, nobody watched with me anymore…traitors:-) I wish the Castle cast and crew all the best. I’m definitely in for everything Nathan Fillion does next (except a Caleb like role, urgh) and will also watch out for new projects of the remaining cast. Witnessing all the drama surrounding the show (especially on Twitter with a large enough crowd and fave button), I’m looking forward for a few things: Lots of people quitting their jobs, going on strike, starting campaigns to alter the climate towards equal opportunities and diversity in their own working environment/ at school (wouldn’t that be great?!), papers on group dynamics and cognitive allusions in certain parts of the TV fandom, classes where they teach the difference between a value judgement and a factual claim (which can be true or false) regarding defamation (of character).

I agree. But that would mean even screen time for both of them. But annec was refering to Stana's diminished screen time which was caused by the 2 day stipulation. But as you pointed out, and what I was trying (and failing to transport in my first post), they could have had even screen time over the course of the season.

I can’t say anything about Nathan’s stipulations for this season as I’m not familiar with them, but even a 2 days filming together combo doesn’t explain less screen time for Stana. There have been plenty of scenes neither Nathan nor Stana had been in. Can’t argue with FF fun times, but he had FF fun times before and after with Stana in the episode. GDS, YMMV, but if that was another pitch for Castle P.I., they didn’t do a good job (and I like Castle P.I.). I saw it more as getting involved in the mandatory COTW without the 12th precinct.

Tim, I didn’t mean the “you” as in you personally would do something, I meant to say “one would…” (as I was once told that the “you” although meaning “one” is more common in the English language). The context wasn’t your post alone. It was your post replying to TWP replying to sugarrush’s post that dealt with fans wanting the show to get cancelled. I’m sorry if that wasn’t clear.

I think the example is not quite accurate. You don’t only just stop eating there (stop watching), you also start a campaign to shut the restaurant down (cancel the show). Surely there are still some people who might want to eat there because they like the other half of the food and maybe the location (might want to watch for other reasons than Caskett). But people make up their own story all the time. They take characters, twist them to their liking, twist storylines and write fanfiction about it. I don’t think the ardent fans on social media are responsible for Castle’s long run. What they do is enhancing the show’s visibility by posting reviews on media sites, creating their own sites, talking about it on Twitter etc. This kind of online word-of-mouth recommendation may persuade other people to give the show a shot and probably reach more people than my offline “Dude, you gotta watch Suits” to friends. That may save advertising money if you have some real multipliers in the fandom.