World-Building: Where the Hell Is It?

[CletusMusashi]

Hobbes wrote that without strong modern government and civilization, the natural state of man was "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short." But actually, the history of human race shows that, wherever you put us, we persevere. We adapt. And we not only learn the things every other animal knows, like "try to avoid being eaten by a polar bear," but we invent things and build cultures. And ultimately, the polar bears lose.

 

What we see on TWD is a mix of:

1. Postapocalyptic scavengers, like Joe.

2. Groups like the hospital that have managed to hold on for a while to what the original infrastructure gave them, at least until they hit a speedbump, and

3. Groups like Woodbury and Ricktator Prison and, hell, even Terminus, that, good or bad, are trying to build a functioning society in the new world. This category is the one that I always have the highest hopes for, and continue to be let down because the writers honestly don't seem to give a fuck.

 

Woodbury fascinated me. Not just "Wow, that Governor guy sure is a crazy. I think I'll call AMC and see if I can buy a "Governors B Whack" lunchbox. But... it seemed like it worked, and the people had a decent standard of living, and a functional balance of bread and circuses, but... how did it work? If you're going to have zombie fights, you're going have people betting on them. Does money still have value? If so, how has the ease with which it can be looted affected that value? Maybe pennies are like dollars, because copper is so useful for other things? Or maybe it's all barter. Barter is world-building, too, if it's done right. Is a gold ring still worth more than a horse? That tells us something. Is it worth less than a chicken? That tells us something as well.

 

Terminus could have been fascinating with a longer story arc. And, you know, writers who wanted to tell a story beyond "They're screwed up because they were abused." But they obviously were not interested, and don't seem to grasp that anybody else might be. I understand the "he who fights monsters" aspect of it. What I don't understand is how they built up that city in the first place! Or how they kept zombies outside their crappy little gate.

 

Even at the prison, I rarely had any idea what most people's day to day jobs were. Did they make Merle scrub the bathrooms? Or did Carol just do everything herself? What did they do socially? We occasionally saw books. And of course Beth singing. But we never had a sense of what the characters do together normally outside of an immediate survival context. There were kids there, yet we never saw how kids in the ZA play. And don't try to tell me they don't. There should be a version of tag called Living and Dead. They should be throwing pebbles at a tree to see who can hit at head-level first. And they should only be using a tree because Rick (or Carl,) told them that throwing rocks at zombies is not funny. Even the adults should have some kind of social life. I'd love to see a poker game episode about who has to clean the septic tank. Or a zombie-fighting adventure that only happens because the softball went over the fence and the losing team wants it back so they don't have to forfeit.

 

I get that it's meant to be a bleak barbaric world. But in real life, the concept of the stupid unwashed barbarian was always more propaganda than observation. Even in modern times, people often deride, say, a group of very destructive airplane hijackers, as "stupid goat herders," instead of simply as cruel and philosophically dissonant. While Romans made jokes about northerners being naked stone age cannibals, Celtic smiths invented maille armor while Germanic merchants maintained huge, centuries-running trade roads throughout northern Europe. Later, while the rest of Europe mocked the savage and allegedly beastlike Vikings, the Vikings fended off disease-infested fleas by shaving their faces, wearing their hair short, bathing frequently, and finding a whole new continent to colonize for 500 years. In other news, the Huns revolutionized warfare by inventing the stirrup. The MesoAmericans selectively bred corn from the hardly-worth-noticing teosinte plant, and once they had a decent crop staple were on the cusp of a bronze age when smallpox defeated them.

People do scavenge things. But it's not all they do. it's never been all they do, in any society, ever. People build themselves up. Not all people, not every single individual, but many. Enough that if you see a society, it was built by generation after generation of people workng at doing things better. Even if their only motivation was laziness, that still counts.

Honestly, it just seems implausible to me that, of the ones who are still alive, they seem to think so little about anything beyond where they are going to forage their next can of Beefaroni from. People have been foraging and watching out for predators for most of our species existence. Yet, in real life, Eskimos learned how to start fires in the Arctic. Because otherwise they'd freeze to death. In TWD's world, people are still struggling with ideas like "Bathing is good?" If this were 2 weeks after the outbreak, I'd get it. We're an affluent society, and when zombies attack, the spoiled and weak need a little bit of time to die off.

But the people who are left are (supposed to be) survivors! Shouldn't we at least see Daryl learning to make his own arrows by now?

Edited December 12, 2014 by CletusMusashi

[ganesh]

For me, I'd either be building my own radio or trying to modify any to see if there's others out there doing the same. Obviously, making sure they survive is most important to the group, but the lack of curiosity of the state of the world seemed weird to me. It was also surprising that no one asked Abraham et al., where they've been, who they talked to, did they know everyone is infected, etc. 

[walnutqueen]

CletusMusashi - if wanting to marry your post is wrong, I don't want to be right,  And I am NOT the marrying kind.  :-)

[CletusMusashi]

If they want to have eternal gasoline... that's bad science. But once I suspend my disbelief, let's assume gasoline does last forever.  In that case, why not use cars and trucks as electrical generators?

I started out by focusing my wrath on the alleged Builder societies. But even with Scavenger and Hoarder societies, the standard should be higher than it is. Grady, for example, was ruled by one dominatrix, half a dozen cops, one doctor, and then all the peasants seemed to be pretty much interchangeable. So do they or do they not have somebody who maintains the EKG machine? Do the plumbers have to fold laundry? There's all kinds of answers they could give to these questions, good and bad. In the long run, I'm actually more forgiving of bad writing than I am of no writing.

[Bongo Fury]

... Shouldn't we at least see Daryl learning to make his own arrows by now?

 

As I recall, Daryl was making arrows back in S2 at the farm.

[kikismom]

They could be making their own gas (diesel at least), think of all the fry-grease tanks that no one is scavenging. You only need a couple chemicals available in all these auto parts stores and hardware stores.

They could be stripping out RVs. Those have come a long way, and the appliances like tankless water heaters, stoves, refrigerators, etc, are better for this context than those designed for home use. They need less energy, and they are designed to run off three power sources, propane, electric by direct hook-up, or battery.

 

There are many other practical solutions we have discussed in the surviving the ZA thread; but as a social structure I would suggest the Beehive model which worked well for remote communities in Old Europe, and for new communities in the early colonies.

 

The Beehive posits that all members are equally valuable; and each segment in worthless without the other. There are workers, soldiers, and family care. Without soldiers, there's no point in raising young or gathering food it just becomes trophies for invaders. Without food and shelter there's no point having defenders or future generations. Without babies and children, it's all going to be wasted effort.

 

Everyone's contribution matters and everyone is respected, but specialization makes better results than random job-switching with inexperience baby nursery caregivers working as warriors or construction---and vice versa.

 

In Nora Waln's book The Approaching Storm, she described successful (for centuries) old German villages where farmers didn't have their own plots of land---all the farmland, vinyards, orchards, etc. belonged to the village. All the adults worked to propagate and the harvest was divided. This saved time, labor, vast amounts of money that would be wasted by each man replicating the equipment and tools (200 plows is dumb when 20 will do if shared.)

But it also built up mutual consideration and bonds of unity.

[kikismom]

I truly enjoyed reading these following short pieces; I hope if anyone has any extra 1 or 2 minutes you will take a look:

 

http://backspace.com/notes/2003/08/gaviotas.php

 

http://boingboing.net/2005/07/12/water-pump-driven-by.html

Edited December 12, 2014 by kikismom

[walnutqueen]

They could be making their own gas (diesel at least), think of all the fry-grease tanks that no one is scavenging. You only need a couple chemicals available in all these auto parts stores and hardware stores.

They could be stripping out RVs. Those have come a long way, and the appliances like tankless water heaters, stoves, refrigerators, etc, are better for this context than those designed for home use. They need less energy, and they are designed to run off three power sources, propane, electric by direct hook-up, or battery.

 

There are many other practical solutions we have discussed in the surviving the ZA thread; but as a social structure I would suggest the Beehive model which worked well for remote communities in Old Europe, and for new communities in the early colonies.

 

The Beehive posits that all members are equally valuable; and each segment in worthless without the other. There are workers, soldiers, and family care. Without soldiers, there's no point in raising young or gathering food it just becomes trophies for invaders. Without food and shelter there's no point having defenders or future generations. Without babies and children, it's all going to be wasted effort.

 

Everyone's contribution matters and everyone is respected, but specialization makes better results than random job-switching with inexperience baby nursery caregivers working as warriors or construction---and vice versa.

 

In Nora Waln's book The Approaching Storm, she described successful (for centuries) old German villages where farmers didn't have their own plots of land---all the farmland, vinyards, orchards, etc. belonged to the village. All the adults worked to propagate and the harvest was divided. This saved time, labor, vast amounts of money that would be wasted by each man replicating the equipment and tools (200 plows is dumb when 20 will do if shared.)

But it also built up mutual consideration and bonds of unity.

 

Sounds Utopian, but like the 1950s perfect family, it is probably a myth.  Because women always get the shit end of the "progress stick", and have been treated badly by men and history.   Their efforts and contributions have rarely, if ever, been valued and appreciated in patriarchal societies ...  :-)

 

But I like the Beehive idea, if only because the entire colony is expendable, so long as it keeps their Queen (and her babies) alive.  It's good to be a Queen Bee, I guess.  :-)

Edited December 12, 2014 by walnutqueen

[CletusMusashi]

I don't remember seeing Daryl making his own ammo, but I'm glad they covered it. One less question to worry about.

[maplebrew]

It's amazing to me that they don't have any 'how to' books easily obtainable from libraries and any store with a book collection. I know they can't tote around books but some of those wilderness survival books are portable and would be helpful to the Atlanta urbanites within their group. For my part though, if I survived, I'd be the crazy hermit Morgan type rather than deal with the two legged pack animals like Joe, etc. 

[CarpeDiem54]

I truly enjoyed reading these following short pieces; I hope if anyone has any extra 1 or 2 minutes you will take a look:

 

http://backspace.com/notes/2003/08/gaviotas.php

 

http://boingboing.net/2005/07/12/water-pump-driven-by.html

Very cool! I particularly liked the first article.

[Nashville]

It's amazing to me that they don't have any 'how to' books easily obtainable from libraries and any store with a book collection. I know they can't tote around books but some of those wilderness survival books are portable and would be helpful to the Atlanta urbanites within their group. For my part though, if I survived, I'd be the crazy hermit Morgan type rather than deal with the two legged pack animals like Joe, etc. 

 

Shoot, a few books out of the Foxfire series should do them just fine.

[Pete Martell]

If they ever do any of this, critics and many fans will endlessly slam the show as being "boring" and "pointless." The heavy backlash against the farm pretty much killed that side of the show. I'd say if you want to see this you should get in touch with Telltale - it sounds like something that could work in a game. Or if you can find any fic that isn't about shipping, fans might read it.

[CletusMusashi]

You could be right. But the farm was mostly, I believe, considered boring because it didn't feature zombie fights every week. At the time, people were still excited about zombies. Now, they just aren't that scary.

 

People suddenly become uncharacteristically afraid of them when the plot requires them to abandon the church or to General Lee an ambulance off a precipice, but the rest of the time it's pretty obvious that Judith was protecting Tyreese by swinging a baby rattle.

 

People who are still watching, for the most part, don't want zombie after zombie. They want story. After a certain amount of time, any work of fantasy or scifi that does not really care about the details of its own fictional world is going to lose people. And, yes, there are zillions of continuity and/or plausibility flaws in Buffy, Star Trek, Harry Potter, Babylon 5, Xena, Being Human, Alien Nation, Max Headroom, Wolf Lake, et cetera ad infinitum. But at least they cared enough to try. TWD, I fear, relies heavily on the "Dude, it's a show about fuckin' zombies! It doesn't have to make sense!" card.

 

And... sorry. Yes it does. I can forgive the zombies not making sense. But why don't the people?

Edited December 14, 2014 by CletusMusashi

[Pete Martell]

Some people were upset because there was too much talking and planning therefore nothing was happening.

 

The same criticism helped kill Survivors (the original version).

 

I think your ideas are interesting. I just don't trust viewers to accept them. With that said, at this point the show does need to take a risk.

Edited December 14, 2014 by Pete Martell

[diebartdie]

Excellent topic Cletus! I just finished reading Zomblog saga which did a TON of world bulding! Not just with how living humans deal with the zombie apocalypse but even with what happens to the zombies themselves. For instance, in the story, any time a herd passes through, the main group of shamblers is followed by "creepers", zombies with no legs, that's great! Even better is after the ENTIRE herd passes, where it had been the ground is littered with gore, body pieces and even the occasional (still lethal) head. Great stuff there. The humans fell roughly into three groups, Travellers (people who wandered all the time, never groups larger than 5 who scavenged constantly), Raiders (very bad people like Joe's gang at best and indescribably evil at worst. Seriously, one group of Raiders were so bad the author left it up to the imagination what exactly they had been doing but enough of the picture was painted you got it) and regular people who were doing their best to rebuild society. The world building was so rich, descriptions of dams failing, nuclear power plants failing, ammo running out, fuel spoiling, even road ways deteriorating due to no regular maintenance as well as the always encroaching nature. Society was shown to change in that regular people stopped being hung up on things like who is gay and who isn't, what race someone is, what god they prayed to (or didnt...although religious extremism was also a HUGE part of the story. I guess that sound contradictory but really, its not).TWD could take a page ot twenty from Zomblog imo.

[Nashville]

I just finished reading Zomblog saga which did a TON of world bulding!

 

THAT's on the Amazon wish list.

[diebartdie]

Go on and treat yourself Nashville, it's only 99 cent!

[CarpeDiem54]

Go on and treat yourself Nashville, it's only 99 cent!

Thanks! Picked it up.

[kikismom]

I love it!

 

Go on and treat yourself Nashville, it's only 99 cent!

Thanks for the tip diebartdie!

[mandolin]

I just grabbed it too. 

 

Another kindle book that's zombie-ish and free is Slow Burn. It has characters that halfway turn and are kind of invisible to the zombies. It was a good read at that price! No world-building in book 1, which is all I've read, however.

[Nashville]

Go on and treat yourself Nashville, it's only 99 cent!

 

Ka-ching.

[raven]

 

People who are still watching, for the most part, don't want zombie after zombie. They want story. After a certain amount of time, any work of fantasy or scifi that does not really care about the details of its own fictional world is going to lose people.

Has the show's rating gone down?  I'm not being sarcastic, I really don't know.

 

Could be the audience who don't post here like seeing zombie after zombie.  I do agree that it can be tedious in its own way.  I'm all for world building - or destroying, I watched all of the Life After People episodes - I don't know how dramatic that would be for TV.  I agree with Pete Martell, the audience would think it boring to watch houses and windmills being built.  

 

Could be that TWD is focusing on our band as being out of whatever the norm is.  Woodbury and Terminus had societies where there was structure, people were clean and all that.  Even Dawn's rape hospital central had that.  "The Group" that we're following aren't thugs like Joe's group but haven't fit in to any group they've come across.  Maybe that is the point?  OK, I'm reaching here, I doubt the show has thought that far ahead.  

 

If consensus among the show runners is that world building, in the sense of setting up a permanent society would be too dull for the fans, we're left with constant threats to whatever they're trying to establish.  The zombies are manageable.  Though I would have found it interesting to watch them try to set up a society in the prison, with an uneasy truce with Woodbury maybe, I don't know if that would fly for prime time television.

[kikismom]

If consensus among the show runners is that world building, in the sense of setting up a permanent society would be too dull for the fans, we're left with constant threats to whatever they're trying to establish.  The zombies are manageable.  Though I would have found it interesting to watch them try to set up a society in the prison, with an uneasy truce with Woodbury maybe, I don't know if that would fly for prime time television.

The constant threats can't be the same threats, handled the same way, just with different faces. To me, that is a huge problem.

Nothing stays the same; nature does not allow stasis.

I would suggest a change that is believable and scientifically possible, changing the entire context of the situation.:

• The animals start showing susceptiblity of infection---species jumping does happen.
• Walkers start to divide behaviourly into sub-groups. Not just lurkers and biters and shufflers; but some showing learned behavior, or comprehension or language, or packs with not random just-come-across-prey behaviour but organized hunting. Even bees communicate a map to a food source, triggerfish can learn sequences with better long-term memory than short-term.

OR---

• Double-edged sword: Radio transmissions re-start on limited basis; some govt./military structure at the most basic level is established. The news is good/bad. The country, the states, are being divided for easier "management". The divisions are not just geographical, but categorical; i.e. one "sector" is for those adamant about religious principles, one sector is families and farming but no say in war or law and order; one sector is medical care/research/concentration of energy source supply and must be supported by everyone else, etc. Like most federal plans that think labeling people into boxes will be helpful, it only creates more shitstorms. Fun!

 

 

My very-out-there suggestion would be my dream of a show like this; instead of eking out material, admit from the beginning that the story will only cover say three years in show-universe-time and 2 seasons in real time---at which point the story begins at the beginning again, with those "roads not taken" played out with their consequences and results. Then after 2 seasons of that---if TV viewers are ready for this kind of sea-change---the story goes back to start for a third "evolution".

 

In the manner of Run Lola Run. Or am I crazy? ( A girl can dream!)

Comments?

Edited December 19, 2014 by kikismom

[raven]

 

The constant threats can't be the same threats, handled the same way, just with different faces. To me, that is a huge problem.

Oh for sure.  I am somewhat optimistic because I've enjoyed pretty much this season so far - yes, even Slabtown - I like being out in the world and see what's going on.  I just wish they would vary it from "only the crazies can run whatever group this is" - though I guess who else would really want to?

 

Not sure about species jumping, but I'm probably tainted by how campy they look on Z Nation.  I love me some camp but, though TWD needs some real-world humor, I don't want camp.

 

I like the zombie sub-grouping idea, especially for fresher ones.  There's good idea exploration there.  I don't think the show is ready for zombie consciousness yet (as with the vampires in I Am Legend) but to see the *mindless* creatures acting cohesively would be interesting and dramatic.  Like velociraptors, circling their victims, herding them into a closed space.

 

It kind of doesn't make sense that I like apocalypse stories so much because they usually just run circles around "people are bad!".  Yes, I get it, people are the real threat.  Why are we always shown devolving as soon as we lose electricity and indoor plumbing?  I wouldn't mind our group as nomads probably because I want to see what the rest of the world looks like.  Too expensive for the show, I suppose, but they've lived in their own narrow space for too long, isn't anyone curious?  They should all trust each other now, we can move past that BS.  

 

I'm rambling here; like I mentioned earlier, is our group supposed to be so damaged that they can't really settle down?  I don't think the show is going for that but it would be interesting if they were.  They've all gravitated to each other and destroy most things in their path, not always intentionally hah.  Except for Judith of course.

 

The RLR idea is intriguing.  What if Rick got bit instead of Jim, or if Rick never woke up, etc?  Must think on that a bit!

Edited December 20, 2014 by raven

[kikismom]

The RLR idea is intriguing.  What if Rick got bit instead of Jim, or if Rick never woke up, etc?  Must think on that a bit!

• What if Andrea made it into the truck, but Lori was left behind and found by Michonne, and after a winter together they were taken to Woodbury? Where Judith is born, and it is Lori that gets involved with the Governor, who wants to keep Judith to replace his daughter Penny? And Rick and the group had thought all this time that Lori was dead, until Merle tells them about the hot monkey love with Michonne's friend Lori?

 

• What if Too Far Gone had:

 Michonne stacking bodies outside the fence---and getting captured--- with Beth---who gets decapitated by the Governor,  Daryl and Sasha are stuck on the lam with Lizzie and Mika, one-legged Herschel would be alive...accompanied by Tyreese. Rick and Michonne escape the prison but Carl, who ran off alone, is forced to join the Claimers.

Edited December 20, 2014 by kikismom

[CletusMusashi]

Well, for one thing, if Lori had ended up with The Governor, his daughter would have gotten lost long before Michonne ever had a chance to kill her.

[Nashville]

I think yall are overlooking the obvious.  Years of societal living have conditioned humans in general so that, in times of times of chaos, their natural response is to flock to anyone or anything which promises a restoration of order.  The manner in which that order is created and/or maintained is secondary.  TWD has already demonstrated this in multiple microcosmic scenarios; Woodbury, Terminus, the merry moveable feast which is CDB, even.

 

The logical next steps will be to continue moving up to greater and greater macro scales - larger camps, then regional enclaves, then city-states (which may or may not claim descendancy from the pre-ZA government structure).  Story-wise, this presents opportunities for crises of greater impact and intrigues of greater subtlety, heroics of grander scale and failures of greater depth.  Think Revolution's Monroe Republic, with zombies.  :)

[CletusMusashi]

I agree. People do flock together into societies.

And those societies tend to kick the asses of smaller hunter-gatherer bands. 

So why has nobody yet managed to assemble a group that can survive conflict with Rick Grimes, a guy who still has not figured out that "Lori was not the world's only source of clean underwear?"

CDB, if they're going to be the show's official group of field adventurers, should be the "losers," the outcasts, the ones who are more worried about where their next meal is coming from or where their next place of rest will be, There should be Woodburies and Gradies and Termini all over the place, each perhaps with reasons that CDB do not want to live under such a government, but still with enough societal inertia that surviving a battle against them should be a huge deal.

Seeing these different large groups hang around for a while, and have trade and alliances and betrayals and wars with each other, while also seeing how the "outlaw" types, which is what they' probably consider our heroes, deal with this constantly shifting political landscape, would be a lot more interesting, to me, than "Posture, Battle, Repeat."

Edited December 20, 2014 by CletusMusashi

[kikismom]

I think yall are overlooking the obvious. 

Years of societal living have conditioned humans in general so that, in times of times of chaos, their natural response is to flock to anyone or anything which promises a restoration of order.  The manner in which that order is created and/or maintained is secondary. 

The logical next steps will be to continue moving up to greater and greater macro scales - larger camps, then regional enclaves, then city-states (which may or may not claim descendancy from the pre-ZA government structure). 

[ganesh]

I think they actually should go to DC even if Eugene was full of it. I would think a lot of people would end up making there way there for lack of any option. I'd be a little sick and tired of just scraping by and basically knowing next to nothing about the state of civilization. I can't imagine there aren't people trying to piece together what happened. I know it's not the point of the show to explain that, and I actually don't care to know, but there should be some people who are trying. 

[Nashville]

Ok, I give. It rings a bell - pretty loudly, actually - but I can't place it. What's the source?

[kikismom]

Ok, I give. It rings a bell - pretty loudly, actually - but I can't place it. What's the source?

Jericho! (of course!)

 

I should say Jericho Revisited by Alternate Reality.

Talk about world-building; they go up to 2025.

 

Edited December 20, 2014 by kikismom

[Maverick]

 I thought it looked like Jericho from the "original nuclear attack" and Montgomery as capital, But Jericho was in Kansas, which was part of whichever of the six regions included the western and mid western states, not Texas so that threw me.  I wonder what the rationale was for Arkansas staying in tact.  Did no one want it?  And why was St. Louis relocated there.  

[kikismom]

It changes; at first the govt. is destroyed and temp gov. are set up here and there...which soon leads to fighting over which one is the "real" American govt.. Then states and regions start seceding and uniting and civil war ensues in a land of nuclear destruction.

All this is complicated by the possibility that it was the Federal Govt that did it in the first place...or at least a creepy Vice-President *cough cough* . Remember Blackwater/Ravenwood?

Remember Lennie James (Robert Hawkins) "BlackJack Map"?

Here are some different Jericho maps/diagrams---note that at one point there are 5 Capitols of the United States.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_kJLrriuC968/SXD3t8i5x-I/AAAAAAAAAQk/Md8L4ozfP1A/s400/Screen_Cap_From_Jericho_1-13_--_Map-1.jpg

http://www.drlverse.com/images/Autoduel/AD-map-JerichoUS.jpg

http://www.thetvaddict.com/blogpics/jerichomapbig.jpg

http://comicattack.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/jerichomap.jpg

 

Here is a really good explanation for newbies; and a fun refresher/trivia for Jericho fans: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locations_in_Jericho_(TV_series)

[diebartdie]

I would love at least one episode exploring what has happened to the rest of the world. Has England managed to seal itself off? For that matter, what about other island nations / states? Has continental Europe fared any better than continental America? Has peace finally found the middle east? Who has access to all those nuclear weapons? (my wife is sitting here reading what I just wrote and she chimed in with "well what about all the nuclear power plants? They would all meltdown within 3 months." I told her we've all more or less agreed to ignore that pesky detail)

[CarpeDiem54]

I would love at least one episode exploring what has happened to the rest of the world. Has England managed to seal itself off? For that matter, what about other island nations / states? Has continental Europe fared any better than continental America? Has peace finally found the middle east? Who has access to all those nuclear weapons? (my wife is sitting here reading what I just wrote and she chimed in with "well what about all the nuclear power plants? They would all meltdown within 3 months." I told her we've all more or less agreed to ignore that pesky detail)

Agreed. I'd love to know this stuff, too. What about the Chinese? A billion zombies sounds beyond frightening.

I'd really like to know about island nations like Malta, the Greek Islands, the UK, Ireland, Iceland, etc. And what about scientists stationed in Antarctica?

[kikismom]

. What about the Chinese? A billion zombies sounds beyond frightening.

You think that's scary? An hour later they're hungry again!

(I'll be here all week; don't forget to tip your waitress)

 

Edited December 21, 2014 by kikismom

[CarpeDiem54]

You think that's scary? An hour later they're hungry again!

(I'll be here all week; don't forget to tip your waitress)

Hahaha!

[Nashville]

You think that's scary? An hour later they're hungry again!

(I'll be here all week; don't forget to tip your waitress)

 

FTW

[Bruinsfan]

 I wonder what the rationale was for Arkansas staying in tact.  Did no one want it?  And why was St. Louis relocated there.  

I remember being taught in school that Arkansas was the one state that could easily become self-sufficient with its diversity of natural resources - it wouldn't be as dependent on trade, out-of-state water, etc. Of course I can only assume from the map that the entire state was invaded by refugees from Missouri who renamed the capital after driving Arkansans into the hills.

[maplebrew]

Maybe I'm channelling a different ZA type show but didn't the CDC guy tell Rick and crew that early in the ZA they were in contact with a French or other European CDC but then lost contact? It was a fleeting reference but if I'm remembering right, we were left with the impression that the ZA was happening in Europe too. 

 

It is interesting to think about how the ZA would go over in other countries. I figure that any low tech culture that was living close to the land would do fine. Remote Amazonian tribes people would carry on as usual. Densely populated developed places like NYC would be a zombie convention where the few survivors go to war over the last can opener. Not picking on New Yorkers here, but every second disaster movie is set there. 

 

In some parts of the world, the ZA would create certain political freedoms. Restrictive borders would collapse. Repressive national governments would collapse. New fiefdoms would start up in many places, but the ZA is an opportunity to socially start over again. A new, possibly more libertarian social contract would emerge. You know, make zombie-ade out of zombies. 

Edited December 30, 2014 by maplebrew

[Bongo Fury]

Maybe I'm channelling a different ZA type show but didn't the CDC guy tell Rick and crew that early in the ZA they were in contact with a French or other European CDC but then lost contact? It was a fleeting reference but if I'm remembering right, we were left with the impression that the ZA was happening in Europe too. 

 

Yes, the French were nearly unscathed by the ZA since the walkers couldn't distinguish a living Frenchman from a dead rotting one by smell. 

 

;-)

[kj4ever]

The prison always bugged me, and Alexandria has the same feel even if people there have "jobs".  I'm not sure how many people were at the prison, but you have Rick, Carl, and sometimes Hershel growing food?  I would think every abled bodied man, woman, and yes, child (my ass worked in fields by the time I was 5!) would be out there that didn't already have something important to do.  I mean they were at the prison what, 7, 8 months and it seemed the majority of their resources were coming from runs or Daryl's hunting.

 

Alexandria seems the same way, and it just seems so stupid.  Actually Alexandria seems worse because looking at 360 they don't even have gardens, and they have been protected enough that they at least should be growing some damn tomatoes!  You would think to build a community, to rebuild civilization you would need to make life sustainable where you are, especially if you track dead people that want to eat you back to your home every time you make a run.

 

I disagree that it would be boring to see this.  Just the personalities involved in buiding civilization trying to mesh together would be interesting enough.  I loved season 2 until we got to the Randall part.  There were certain things they drug out in that season that totally killed the flow.  The sickeness in the prison also were some of my favorities episodes.  Carol murdering people, Tyreese's tantrums, Herschel risking his life, the run with one of my favorite Daryl moments of the entire series (I will beat your ass in the ground)....So many things can come from them rebuilding.

[NurseGiGi]

I would love to see some world building, too, and actually thought I would be seeing this when the series first started.  I think it's perfectly reasonable to see gardens growing and lots of how to books on the shelves, at least in background shots.  But then I remember that I'm watching a show based on a comic book series and Kirkman is a 14 year old boy trapped in a man's body.  So, yeah, I don't think it will happen anytime soon.

 

ETA:  I downloaded the zomblog series, too.  Thanks for the tip.

Edited April 6, 2015 by NurseGiGi

[Nashville]

Maybe I'm channelling a different ZA type show but didn't the CDC guy tell Rick and crew that early in the ZA they were in contact with a French or other European CDC but then lost contact? It was a fleeting reference but if I'm remembering right, we were left with the impression that the ZA was happening in Europe too. 

CDC guy???

WTH are you talking about!?!?

Repeat after me:

Nobody in this show has EVER contacted the CDC.

The CDC doesn't even exist.

You are obviously mistaken.

These are not the droids you are looking for.

Whoops - sorry. Gets away from you sometimes, donchaknow.

[kj4ever]

I would love to see some world building, too, and actually thought I would be seeing this when the series first started.  I think it's perfectly reasonable to see gardens growing and lots of how to books on the shelves, at least in background shots.  But then I remember that I'm watching a show based on a comic book series and Kirkman is a 14 year old boy trapped in a man's body.  So, yeah, I don't think it will happen anytime soon.

 

ETA:  I downloaded the zomblog series, too.  Thanks for the tip.

Every time I've seen an interview with Kirkman I want to punch him in the face.  He is such a condescending asshole.

 

He also could care less about the virus so I think unless AMC gets the chance to ditch him we are out of luck on how/why/where/ of the virus is completely out of our reach.  As as Nashville so eloquently put it....CDC?  What CDC?  Nothing to see here because Kirkman says so.

[Nashville]

ETA:  I downloaded the zomblog series, too.  Thanks for the tip.

I'm up to June 22, 2029 (Zomblog: Snoe). :)

[mandolin]

I finished the zomblog stuff. It was decent, especially for the price! I recced Slow Burn by Bobby Adair, but I've since read his Ebola Z, and I really liked it! It could be considered just barely pre-apocalyptic seeing as it's about Ebola. /OT More fall of civilization than rebuilding.

[NurseGiGi]

I'm up to June 22, 2029 (Zomblog: Snoe). :)

Okay then (overachiever!  teacher's pet!)  I'm going to start reading now.