Unpopular Opinions: All Alone in Purgatory

[phoenics]

Frankenhenry!! LOL! That's funny.

[VanillaBear85]

I don't know where else to put this. Okay. This is going to ruffle some feathers, but, I'm sick to death of hearing the "white privilege" or "white male privilege" slur. . YES, slur. ... because, that's how it's being used . It's just as offensive as "angry black woman" as a slur and cliche. Sometimes a woman, who happens to be black, is angry. Sometimes, a person who is white, happens to write for a particular actor.

I'm sorry, but, this has been percolating for sometime as I've seen this slur flung around nonchalantly on various websites. Hate breeds hate. .. no-one owns racism, bias, hate. .. no-one is immune. .. and, all slurs are offensive. .. to me. All slurs are cliche.

I'm sorry, but this is just how I feel.

Are you offended  by the term or the meaning behind white privilege? It is not a slur. Angry black woman is a stereotype and/or a trope.

Edited February 22, 2015 by VanillaBear85

[jhlipton]

Are you offended  by the term or the meaning behind white privilege? It is not a slur. Angry black woman is a stereotype and/or a trope.

So's "white privilege".

Please see my comments re "structural racism".

[AgentRXS]

Here's mine: As much as I love Tom, Nicole, Orlando. and Lyndie, I absolutely hope FOX does NOT renew this show for Season 3. I am that pissed off by this season, and felt like the finale was the perfect way to wrap up this show.

I don't feel like the writers deserve the benefit of the doubt to get another chance. I learned from watching soaps how pissy and vindictive showrunners can get when the network interferes with their vision of the show. The minute FOX releases it grip, expect Katrina and Hawley 2.0 to appear. No thanks. The writers came into this season with fan loyalty riding high, and gave us all the finger until FOX stepped in to ensure they saw a profit from this season. Unless FOX does a clean sweep with the whole writing team, it just isn't worth it to invest in a Season 3 (although if it is renewed I will watch, because I do love the 4 main actors).

 

It still amazing how they fucked this show up so spectacularly.

[HalcyonDays]

As much as I love Tom, Nicole, Orlando. and Lyndie, I absolutely hope FOX does NOT renew this show for Season 3.

 

I disagree. RENEW but get rid of Goffman, Metzner and Kim. Get Len Wisemen to direct more. Then all will be well.

[DJG1122]

Len Wiseman is directing the pilot for 'Lucifer' for FOX.

[HalcyonDays]

Len Wiseman is directing the pilot for 'Lucifer' for FOX.

Yeah, the pilot. Then after that? Also, there have been multiple directors for SH this season and last, so he can direct an episode here or there. Direction is really not the problem. it's those three people and their "vision".

[DJG1122]

Yeah, the pilot. Then after that? Also, there have been multiple directors for SH this season and last, so he can direct an episode here or there. Direction is really not the problem. it's those three people and their "vision".

Fingers and toes crossed. Len Wiseman would be a great showrunner with some good writers. What about Damian Kindler and Phil Iscove?

[jhlipton]

Goffman et all must go.  They can keep their titles,but they must have no input to the show.  Who knows, if they sand-blast these tossers, we might even get Indi back.  LOL

[OnceSane]

Topic, please.

[Nanrad]

I don't know where else to put this. Okay. This is going to ruffle some feathers, but, I'm sick to death of hearing the "white privilege" or "white male privilege" slur. . YES, slur. ... because, that's how it's being used . It's just as offensive as "angry black woman" as a slur and cliche. Sometimes a woman, who happens to be black, is angry. Sometimes, a person who is white, happens to write for a particular actor.

I'm sorry, but, this has been percolating for sometime as I've seen this slur flung around nonchalantly on various websites. Hate breeds hate. .. no-one owns racism, bias, hate. .. no-one is immune. .. and, all slurs are offensive. .. to me. All slurs are cliche.

I'm sorry, but this is just how I feel.

You shouldn't feel sorry about feeling this way and I do believe that it's misused sometimes, but I wouldn't call it a slur and I have to disagree that it's just as offensive as angry black woman. The latter has roots back to slavery all the way to present day. This stereotype has very real consequences on black woman in everyday life. While white (male) privilege may offend some, it doesn't have the same consequences-or even close to it. Black women often have to express their true emotions, which can be detrimental for some, in order to not be stereotyped. Whites (as while as white men) do not suffer from the same generalization in every day life. But, the internet is the internet, so there are a lot of zealots who overuse or misuse terms.

 

No one owns discrimination, but there are groups who suffer far worse than others or where some are unscathed where as the same cannot be said for the other group. 

 

The problem for some isn't that a white person just happened to write for another white person, but rather how often that writing happened and pushed a POC to the sidelines who is supposed to be a main character. 

 

So's "white privilege".

White privilege isn't a stereotype or trope, it's societal privileges that whites receive in America. Just take off of white and substitute heterosexual, Christian, etc and you'll have a better understanding of the phrase. It's usually privileges that majority groups or accepted groups in a culture/country get that they don't (always) realize and/or blinds that to the struggles other groups face without said privilege. That's probably a terrible definition, but that's the gist of it. 

 

Mods: was it okay that I said that?

 

Unpopular opinion: I'm indifferent to Frank. I want to like him because others like him and I ship him with Jenny, but other than that, I don't care for him. I want him to like because he doesn't deserve all that happened to him, but I wouldn't have minded if he had stayed oblivious to everything. I liked Corbin way better--I guess the actor just had presence. BUT, Frank is way preferable over the other lady, which, can someone explain the point of her character?

[FurryFury]

OK. I'll say lots of unpopular things, but what the hell, this is what this thread's for.

 

The show was vastly overrated in Season One. The pilot and a few other episodes were really, really good - but the others? From mediocre to bad. Ichabod and Abbie really were the best thing about the show, but this is mostly the casting's doing. Some of the stand-alones were SyFy-level bad.

 

Henry was awful even before being revealed as Ichabod's son. It was clear the writers wanted the audience to love him but couldn't write him well enough. Noble was completely miscast, and I'm saying this as a big fan of Walter Bishop.

 

Frank and Jenny are overrated. Well, at least were in s1, because I haven't seen s2 - maybe I will if the show gets renewed and back on track.

 

And the last, really controversial one - I feel like racial issues are way overblown in fandom. I have no idea why Abbie was sidelined and I do consider this absolutely idiotic - she is my favorite character, hands down. But thinking Goffman must be racist to do it? This has never been proven in any way. For all we know, he's just a bad writer who's struck a nice friendship with KW, thought of a cool story for Katrina and could never realize it. Also, while I've hated Katrina basically since before I've seen her (I remember rolling my eyes at the lines about the hero and his ghostly wife in the show description before it had even aired), I definitely don't think every person who likes her and dislikes Abbie (even if I have no idea why anybody would dislike Abbie) is racist, and I've seen quite a few sentiments about this. 

Edited March 15, 2015 by AmandaPanda
mod edit

[FurryFury]

Wow, seriously? Deleting? I've said nothing offensive. Good to know I shouldn't visit this forum.

[HalcyonDays]

Not deleted.

 

The posts were reported, and are being reviewed by the mods of this board, and most likely to return in a bit. Standard procedure.

 

ETA: If you will notice, your posts have reappeared.

[jhlipton]

I haven't seen s2

Then you don't know [a] how badly Abbie was minimized, how she was inclined, how she was forced to agree with every stupid idea of the StruggleWitch; and how the other 2 POC, Frank and Jenny, were pushed off screen to make way for white guys Hawley and Abraham.

Very few people are saying that Goffman is a racist; however, there is no denying that he endorsed the idea that white people make better TV than people of color (what I call "structural racism"). Even when out-and-out racists started to applaud, he still thought he had done nothing wrong. *(see also: white privilege -- whites are the status quo, so pushing white people forward at he expense of POC is seen as normal.)

That's the problem.

[Miss Dee]

Thanks, jhlipton, for putting it so succinctly. I don't like accusing people of overt racism unless I'm a lot closer tothe situation than I am to this one to make that judgment. But I think he's racist in the way most of us white people are unconsciously racist, in that we don't understand our own privilege and how the actions we would take towards a white person can have a very different meaning and effect when taken towards a person of colour.

In which I include myself; just because I try to be aware of it doesn't mean I'm not guilty of bit at times myself. Isn't there a song that goes "Everybody's a Little Bit Racist"? I think that's true of white people anyway, when you're talking about structural racism. Although maybe we need a different word; there's a lot of power in the word "racist", and maybe it shouldn't be diluted down to where someone can go "Yeah, I'm a little racist, but so is every white person, right? I'm working on it." That would seem a bit... blasé. Or am I out to lunch on this?

*ahem* Topic? Don't mind if I do! I guess I'm saying that I believe Goffman really doesn't get race relations and has blinders on when it comes to privileging white actors over actors of colour, but I don't think that necessarily means he thinks people of colour should be treated differently (lesser than) white people as a general rule. But is that a popular or unpopular opinion? I'm not sure. I've heard plenty of people say or suggest that they think he's racist, but what do we mean when we use that term? There is, to me, a range of behaviour between "He doesn't understand his own privilege and how his writing decisions affect the show" and "He's deliberately trying to erase the diversity of the show to make it a show of white actors with one token minority actor." Both are racist, but have very different levels of knowledge, intention, and consciousness of behaviour.

And maybe we should be saying none of that matters a fig, because the only thing that does matter is the effect. But I have a hard time accepting that on general principle.

[jhlipton]

There is, to me, a range of behaviour between "He doesn't understand his own privilege and how his writing decisions affect the show" and "He's deliberately trying to erase the diversity of the show to make it a show of white actors with one token minority actor." Both are racist, but have very different levels of knowledge, intention, and consciousness of behaviour.

Yes, exactly but in general, I'd go a bit further to include the frat boys at SAE and other flat-out racists. Take Ferguson, MO, for example. There were a few cops and police employees who were out-and-out racists (on the far end of this range), but most, if not all, of the entire city structure was willfully blind to the bias against blacks.

Where does Goffman sit on this scale? It's impossible to know, but I doubt he's at either end. Almost certainly closer to the 'white privilege" end than the deliberate racist end.

[phoenics]

And the last, really controversial one - I feel like racial issues are way overblown in fandom. I have no idea why Abbie was sidelined and I do consider this absolutely idiotic - she is my favorite character, hands down. But thinking Goffman must be racist to do it? This has never been proven in any way. For all we know, he's just a bad writer who's struck a nice friendship with KW, thought of a cool story for Katrina and could never realize it. Also, while I've hated Katrina basically since before I've seen her (I remember rolling my eyes at the lines about the hero and his ghostly wife in the show description before it had even aired), I definitely don't think every person who likes her and dislikes Abbie (even if I have no idea why anybody would dislike Abbie) is racist, and I've seen quite a few sentiments about this.

I think your argument is a straw man because no one said that Goffman was racist in the overt way you're suggesting. What people said was that his view of "diversity" had an adverse effect on the racial makeup on the show. There was a lot of nuance in people's arguments about this - please don't reduce it in such a simplistic way.

ETA: I agree that the term "racist" has been overused and we've all become sensitive to it. I know terms like "white privilege" and "white fragility" (new one!! look it up!) have been suggested as ways to discuss racism without people becoming immediately defensive... it's hard. It takes an extraordinary amount of humility and compassion to discuss racism rationally amongst races.

Edited March 15, 2015 by phoenics

[OnceSane]

Back on topic, please.

[HalcyonDays]

I'm rewatching the Wendingo/Joe Corbin episode....and honestly, my UO is that I do not need Henry Parrish/Jeremy Crane on my scene or in my show. First, I've never watched Fringe, so I don't have that nostaligia/love of Noble's character, second, I (now) feel that Henry/Jeremy partially ruined SH. So, just like Katrina, I bloody hate/cringe/get angry when this person appears on my screen. But I know that John Noble is an amazing actor and he is, but his character is just annoying and irrtating to me, that I do not want to see him.

 

But I will say this - whenever Katrina's name is said, I "raise my fur". Fuck, I hate any mention of her. It just brings me anger and hatred to a degree I cannot. I never want to hear her name from Crane's lips again, that's how much I hate it...

[jhlipton]

I'm rewatching the Wendingo/Joe Corbin episode....and honestly, my UO is that I do not need Henry Parrish/Jeremy Crane on my scene or in my show. First, I've never watched Fringe, so I don't have that nostaligia/love of Noble's character, second, I (now) feel that Henry/Jeremy partially ruined SH. So, just like Katrina, I bloody hate/cringe/get angry when this person appears on my screen. But I know that John Noble is an amazing actor and he is, but his character is just annoying and irrtating to me, that I do not want to see him.

 

But I will say this - whenever Katrina's name is said, I "raise my fur". Fuck, I hate any mention of her. It just brings me anger and hatred to a degree I cannot. I never want to hear her name from Crane's lips again, that's how much I hate it...

 

I sincerely doubt that either of these, at least on this forum, are unpopular opinions, but are rather Statements of Facts.

[HalcyonDays]

I sincerely doubt that either of these, at least on this forum, are unpopular opinions, but are rather Statements of Facts.

 

Well, I have read that many people love John Noble and wish he stayed on as the Sin Eater, so I think for the most part, it was only turning him into a whining man-child was the problem, along with CFD.

 

But yeah, the dislike of the wife is a popular opinion, but does she make your fur raise? Or like me, now when I hear the name of the wife, I get angry. *sigh*

[jhlipton]

But yeah, the dislike of the wife is a popular opinion, but does she make your fur raise?

 

It's Nikki that makes my "fur raise".  I'll be in my bunk...

[phoenics]

LMBO!

[DJG1122]

It's Nikki that makes my "fur raise".  I'll be in my bunk...

Like I said, every male on the planet..........

 

 

 

 

We have Nikki photos for ALLURE for the guys. Okay, gents, your turn. Tom & TheOrlandoJones, shirts off please.

Edited April 17, 2015 by DJG1122

[HalcyonDays]

Like I said, every male on the planet..........

We have Nikki photos for ALLURE for the guys. Okay, gents, your turn. Tom & TheOrlandoJones, shirts off please.

 

I completely agree. Nicole (and Lyndie) are gorgeous, but I'm here for some Mison. Orlando's a hottie too, so if media could please find ways to let me objectify them in a magazine or whatever also, I would be much appreciated. Equal opportunity, you know.

 

*thinks about SecretDiaryofACallGirl1stEpisode*

[jhlipton]

There are people who complain about "the male gaze" -- apparently, it's news that men like T&A.  But one thing I've found is that there is a "female gaze" which is somewhat different from the male gaze.  First, many women do like looking at the bare chests of men they find attractive.  Second, women are far more likely to be attracted to an image of a man who dresses well.  I see a lot of comments from women on how great ab actor looks in this suit, or that costume.  I find this very interesting.

[HalcyonDays]

There are people who complain about "the male gaze" -- apparently, it's news that men like T&A.  But one thing I've found is that there is a "female gaze" which is somewhat different from the male gaze.  First, many women do like looking at the bare chests of men they find attractive.  Second, women are far more likely to be attracted to an image of a man who dresses well.  I see a lot of comments from women on how great ab actor looks in this suit, or that costume.  I find this very interesting.

 

Nah, not me. (I'm weird). I tend to like guys with scruff and longish hair. Always have. Any corporate-looking guy that are perfectly put together are not my thing at all (I think they are shady self-absorbed assholes - no history about that at all...not at all).

Anyway, jeans and T-Shirt sort of person, or a casual look preferred.

 

For example, take my love of the Chameleon (I dubbed Mison that because he always looks different depending on hair/glasses/beard.)

 

Drops Dead on Floor with a Thud shot to me. (I believe it's an early casting head shot).

 

I think it all depends on the person and what they like. Second, I like taller slender guys. Some woman love the really bulked muscled up ones, but not me - too big. :')

 

You know what else? The joke about a guy with an English or Aussie accent being something that makes men even more attractive, along with being someone who can make a woman laugh. Makes a big difference on attractiveness.

 

ETA: Got pulled away before I could finish my post.

 

So my UO would be that I find Mison hot even though he's not the textbook Hollywood definiton of a buff leading man -  a la a Chris or Liam Hemsworth, Chris Evans, Bradley Cooper, etc. Any of those big buff guys you see on screen today. He could, like those other guys who worked out, but I get the feeling he's like "Meh. Not here for that."

[DJG1122]

 But one thing I've found is that there is a "female gaze" which is somewhat different from the male gaze.  First, many women do like looking at the bare chests of men they find attractive.  

It's the romantic/manliness thing. Notice how on a lot of the Harlequin Romance/bodice ripper book covers, the man is bare chested. One episode of 'Haven', Adam Copeland, aka Edge (former WWE wrestler) had his shirt off and the forum went nuts.

It is true that women don't view totally naked men the same way men view totally naked women. A man walks into his home, finds a totally naked woman and it's "Well, hello-o-o". A woman walks into her home, finds a totally naked man and runs screaming out the door.

Edited April 18, 2015 by DJG1122

[HalcyonDays]

It's the romantic/manliness thing. Notice how on a lot of the Harlequin Romance/bodice ripper book covers, the man is bare chested.

 

The early Harlequins, what did the chests look like? - cause Hair matters. Have you ever seen the shot of Burt Reynolds as the centerfold of Playgirl?? That was the 70s I believe.

 

Would you ever see a guy that hairy today as a centerfold now? No way. Muscle definition yes. Hair, no. Changing times, man.

 

It is true that women don't view totally naked men the same way men view totally naked women. A man walks into his home, finds a totally naked woman and it's "Well, hello-o-o". A woman walks into her home, finds a totally naked man and runs screaming out the door.

 

Here is another reality. A completely naked woman is beautiful to look at, elegant, with the curves and slopes a body has (wish mine did....*lesigh*)

 

However, a man looks good until you get to their...*ahem* bottom area. The items "hanging there" are not always so elegant looking. Again, different reality. A woman in a bikini bottom can look amazing. A man in a bikini bottom...eh, not so much....

[jhlipton]

However, a man looks good until you get to their...*ahem* bottom area. The items "hanging there" are not always so elegant looking. Again, different reality. A woman in a bikini bottom can look amazing. A man in a bikini bottom...eh, not so much....

 

So you have no love for Michelangelo's David?  LOL

Someone must have thought men look good in bikini bottoms -- Speedos didn't come out of nowhere!

[DJG1122]

So you have no love for Michelangelo's David?  LOL

Someone must have thought men look good in bikini bottoms -- Speedos didn't come out of nowhere!

Vince McMahon has made a fortune with men in Speedos.

[HalcyonDays]

So you have no love for Michelangelo's David?  LOL

Someone must have thought men look good in bikini bottoms -- Speedos didn't come out of nowhere!

 

Hips up only. Though it is a beautiful statue (and physique)

 

And boxers are sexy on men. :') Tighty whities, speedos etc are. Functional yes, but not so attractive. Again, possibly an unpopular opinion. Possibly not *grin*

 

Vince McMahon has made a fortune with men in Speedos.

 

Very true. But it's mostly kids watching wrestling (I was one of them).

[OnceSane]

IDA. I still watch wrestling and know plenty of adults who watch. Who do you think got the kids into wrestling and buys all the tickets and merchandise?

[RiddleyWalker]

So you have no love for Michelangelo's David?  LOL

Someone must have thought men look good in bikini bottoms -- Speedos didn't come out of nowhere

The mention of Michaelangelo's David made me think of the Romans and Greeks before with their classical male nudes. Going on the little I know of Greek culture,  I suspect it was other men that liked those bits and later invented Speedos. ;)

[Miss Dee]

I have seen Michaelangelo's David in person. It made me cry, it was so beautiful. But the dangly bits were the least interesting; it was the sheer genius of how he carved a realistic man's body, with all the lines and curves, out of a solid piece of stone.

I appreciate the lines and curves of the human form, male and female. The sexual areas are not really beautiful in either; I think we (general we) only find them titillating because they're usually hidden from view.

[phoenics]

I guess my UO is that when I saw Michelangelo's David, I wasn't really blown away. I mean - it was nice and kinda amazing (up close the marble is just gorgeous)... oh never mind... I guess I was blown away.

[OnceSane]

Let's get back on topic.

[RiddleyWalker]

Not sure if this an unpopular opinion or not, but since this is the "hot stove league" season for SH fans, I thought I'd throw this out. It's certainly off-topic.

 

So, I'm currently watching one of my favorite cheesy 70's Sci-Fi movies, The Omega Man with Charlton Heston. My first thoughts watching this again are that this would truly be hell. Not that CH is (apparently) the last man on earth besides the infected "Family," but that he's stuck in the 70's. Good Lord! Those clothes, and having to use an 8-track player for music. Not to mention that the only movie he can watch is Woodstock. Did I mention those clothes? He can go in to any store in LA and pick out what he wants--but it's the 70s! (He does, however, pick up a cool pleated, pirate-like shirt that he wears for much of the movie that Ichabod would surely approve of.  ;)  )

 

That, however, is not my point. What makes this relevant to SH is Charlton Heston and his relationship with the AA character Lisa (played by Rosalind Cash). The kiss between her character and CH's was one of the first interracial kisses in a movie.(That kiss apparently made an impression on Whoopie Goldberg with humorous ramifications for her when she met Charlton Heston later) I do see some parallels between this movie and the COL Neville/Lisa relationship and the Abbie and Ichabod relationship on SH. 

 

For those who have seen the movie, any thoughts?

 

ETA: Here's a quote from wikipedia regarding this (Neville/Lisa) relationship:

 

Heston wrote in his autobiography, In the Arena, that The Omega Man was the first leading role in a film for actress Rosalind Cash, and that she was understandably "a little edgy" about doing a love scene with him. Heston explained, "It was in the seventies that I realized a generation of actors had grown up who saw me in terms of the iconic roles they remembered from their childhoods. 'It's a spooky feeling,' she told me, 'to screw Moses.'"

 

Edited April 24, 2015 by RiddleyWalker

[DeLurker]

I vaguely remember seeing the movie, but I am unsure of what your opinion is.  My reading comprehension might be a tad low due to a caffeine deficiency.

 

In terms of the interacial kiss, it didn't strike me as a big deal - in fact, I did not even remember it until you wrote about it*.  Granted, I was a kid when I saw it so kissing was still Ewwww! Gross!, but interracial stuff wasn't a big deal.  Grew up a military brat and there were lots of mixed marriages (including my folks).  Mixed marriages were more commonly Asian-White or Asian-Black in my experience (maybe based on where Pops was stationed), but there were some that were Black-White.

 

*I seem to recall my older brothers murmurring about seeing some girl parts though.  They were Equal Opportunity Oglers so race wouldn't have been an issue in getting to see girly bits.

[RiddleyWalker]

I vaguely remember seeing the movie, but I am unsure of what your opinion is.  My reading comprehension might be a tad low due to a caffeine deficiency.

 

In terms of the interacial kiss, it didn't strike me as a big deal - in fact, I did not even remember it until you wrote about it*.  Granted, I was a kid when I saw it so kissing was still Ewwww! Gross!, but interracial stuff wasn't a big deal.  Grew up a military brat and there were lots of mixed marriages (including my folks).  Mixed marriages were more commonly Asian-White or Asian-Black in my experience (maybe based on where Pops was stationed), but there were some that were Black-White.

 

*I seem to recall my older brothers murmurring about seeing some girl parts though.  They were Equal Opportunity Oglers so race wouldn't have been an issue in getting to see girly bits.

 

I'm not sure quite what my point is , either. Watching the movie, which is from 40+ years ago, and seeing an interracial romantic and sexual relationship while there are still so many people today that are against Ichabbie as a romantic couple makes me a bit sad about how little things have changed in parts of American culture, I suppose. It also makes me think there was a lot of (perhaps) naive optimism at the time The Omega Man came out regarding the future of race relations in America that we don't have currently.  That being said, even though the optimism may be gone, overall, I do think things are better, it's just a slower process than many hoped for.

[MissAlmond]

My UO - Talk of More Grace, More Jenny,  gives me the nagging fear Season 3 will simply swap The Crane Family Drama with The Mills Family Drama, of which I also have no interest in.  I also don't want Jenny to turn out to be the true second witness and not Ichabod.  I  still want my Ichabbie end game as fate, but my wish for Season 3 is to delve into the mystery on why the town of Sleepy Hollow was chosen for all these strange things to happen.

Edited April 25, 2015 by MissAlmond

[jhlipton]

Grace and Jenny have agendas and desires beyond being a Mills; and neither of them suffer drama gladly.  I think they (especially Jenny) can have a lot moe screen time with her becoming a Witness.

[MissAlmond]

Said with respect to all:  I’ve always been “meh” on Jenny, I stand with Savinggrace and (by me, much missed,) LinaLamont on her character.  I also can’t justify to myself complaining about Goffman’s desire to elevate Katrina’s screen time only to turn around and see it done for, what was, the “third” female lead.  IMO, Ichabod and Abbie need to be The Two Witnesses, period;  destined by fate to form a bond across time and space to battle evil.  There is a world of possibilities SH could explore to take them on a wild, crazy roller coaster ride in Season 3.  My UO remains Jenny should only pop up now and then to participate in it.   And to that, I'll add the old "agree to disagree" statement. 

Edited April 26, 2015 by MissAlmond

[DearEvette]

I completely agree.  I don't want S3 to swap CFD to become MFD.  As much I love the Mills Sisters that is a big NOPE for me. I think Grace works well in very small doses.  it was nice to see her once in S1.  It was nice to see her in the S2 finale.  And it is nice to have her journal as a counterpoint/companion to Washington's Bible. And it may be nice to see her in an occasional flashback a la the ones we get from Ichabod.  But that is all.

 

But that said,  in Necromancer when this exchange happened:

 

Irving "A dead guy, a mental patient and a time traveler from the Revolution,”

Abbie “That’s our team.”

 

A sort of energy clicked together in the show. When Irving and Jenny were dealing with the Hessians and Abbie & Ichabod were dealing with Headless, it felt like the show had settled into itself and the cast felt comfortably complete.  So in that sense I like the idea of the team of four that we are left with.  As long as Abbie & Ichabod are still indisputably the focus, with Irving & Jenny as support I am good.

 

I thought both Jenny and Irving  had just the right amount/type of inclusion in S1.  It was their S2 involvement that was problematic.  If they can bring them back to S1 levels I think that would be great.

 

Funny thing:  In Irving's comment about the 'dead guy'  he was referring to Andy of course.  But even without Andy, the assessment of their team is still true, b/c Irving has replaced Andy as the requisite 'dead guy'  LOL.

Edited April 27, 2015 by DearEvette

[HalcyonDays]

I completely agree.  I don't want S3 to swap CFD to become MFD.  As much I love the Mills Sisters that is a big NOPE for me.

 

Considering many people want focus on Abbie, I'd say this is definitely an UO, and I do agree with it. I also don't want one mess of drama being replaced by another mess of drama, though CFD was epic in it's pointlessness and utter boring scenario.

 

I want the focus on my Mulder/Scully quirky time travelling Witness team, with Jenny and Irving in the background. That's the team and works beautifully together.

[Indi]

I object to the idea that any focus on the Mills family would inevitably bring drama or that it would be equal to the abhorrent CFD, when everything we've seen points to the opposite. Granted, the show has a different boss now and this could change (hopefully not), but any drama on Abbie's side has been confined to two episodes per season at most.

 

Grace has been useful and heartwarming in her short appearances. Far from any tedious drama Ichy seems to attract. Even Jenny's beef with her sister hasn't reared its ugly head as often as I feared and I hope it stays that way.

 

That said, and even though I like Grace a lot, I think her role should end with the S2 finale. Short and sweet. That's how I'd keep her memorable and not let her overstay her welcome. I would like to see Abbie's other ancestors though. Those women, who sacrificed themselves for the mission, deserve, at the very least, the same attention Ichabod's famous friends get in the show. Abbie was able to interact with Grace on a spiritual level in S1 and I think she could have the ability to do the same with her other ancestors. That's the kind of Mills Family focus I'd love to see, something similar to Ichabod's flashbacks, not something like the drawn out horrible Crane family drama.

 

As for Jenny, I like her well enough... in small doses and well utilized. I kind of resent the fact that she was given more character development and inner life than Abbie so far, thanks to the awful people in charge of this show, and I hope that changes completely in S3.

 

Now for the really unpopular opinion. Since I'm truly fed up with everything and anything Ichy... While I expect the partnership between the Witnesses to be the main relationship, I hope they put his personal life on hold for most part of next season and focus on Abbie's life out of work, including friends and boyfriends. Anyone that is not her partner, who has been sucking the life out of her, since he was resurrected. I don't care how small those moments are or that they don't happen every episode, it's time to give her, what she has been denied so far.

[DeLurker]

I'll hold out until I see the new season with the new kids in town.  They've got good bones to work from if they go back to Season 1, but the majority of Season 2 was shite so trying to work continuity from there will be a thankless task.

 

I think they can spend more time exploring the Mills Family history without turning it into the MFD, but I admit that S2 makes me gunshy.

[RiddleyWalker]

I was thinking back on the Jenny from S1 and realized how edgy and dangerous she was (or seemed at the time) she was a mental patient after all and possessed by a demon at one point. She was also on the outs with Abbie at the time and her anger was palpable. If I remember correctly there was also scene with her doing pull-ups in her room at Tarrytown Psych. I'm not sure there's a way to get back to that edgy character, but that's when I liked Jenny best. Short leather skirts and flirting with bartenders? Meh...

[jhlipton]

That said, and even though I like Grace a lot, I think her role should end with the S2 finale. Short and sweet. That's how I'd keep her memorable and not let her overstay her welcome. I would like to see Abbie's other ancestors though. Those women, who sacrificed themselves for the mission, deserve, at the very least, the same attention Ichabod's famous friends get in the show. Abbie was able to interact with Grace on a spiritual level in S1 and I think she could have the ability to do the same with her other ancestors. That's the kind of Mills Family focus I'd love to see, something similar to Ichabod's flashbacks, not something like the drawn out horrible Crane family drama.

 

 I hope they put his personal life on hold for most part of next season and focus on Abbie's life out of work, including friends and boyfriends. Anyone that is not her partner, who has been sucking the life out of her, since he was resurrected. I don't care how small those moments are or that they don't happen every episode, it's time to give her, what she has been denied so far.

 

Other Mills women have had a hand in the spell-book, right?  We can have episodes devoted to Abbie's ancestors and their contribution that helps put down the Monster of the Week, or that helps move along the season arc.  And since they wouldn't be directly interacting with Abbie or Jenny, there wouldn't be any MFD.  Plus, this would provide work for more women of color.

 

I totes agree wrt Abbie having a social life.  When the show started, there was an article on how white female stars always have a romantic relationship, but bloack women do not.  Let's change that -- and preferably not as dysfunctional as Cookie on Empire, Olivia on Scandal or Anna on HTGAWM.