TCM: The Greatest Movie Channel

[Suzn]

Quote

Was up late enough to see the first ten minutes or so of Gone With the Wind. The opening shots of slaves in the field, and then the prologue over these shots with its words yearning for a time of "Cavaliers and Cotton Fields," the "pretty world" of "Gallantry," of "Knights and their Ladies Fair, of Master and Slave," followed by the comedic moment of the black "foreman" calling quitting time (when in fact the foremen in the fields were whites with whips), revolted me as never before. It really felt different to me this time. I've always been one to say, "hey, cut it slack, the movie was from a different time, it's art, enjoy it for what it is." But this time, the movie, in normalizing (to use a contemporary word) the evil it portrayed, struck me as a malignancy that ought never be shown on our screens again.

Oh, please no censoring of history - the history of "normal" attitudes.  We need to see what was acceptable in times past  to examine and discuss them.  Let's never pretend that these ideas were not accepted in our very recent history.

My opinion of Gone With the Wind is complicated and has changed in several ways through the years.  I've always been very aware of the casual, matter of fact racism in it and it does, in fact, bother me more as time goes by.  One ironic thing is that I believe they thought they were removing the racism in the book, which was much more blatant.

Gone With the Wind was my favorite movie for many years.  What resonated with me was combination of the most shallow of reasons and much deeper ones.  I loved the clothes and still think they were splendid.  On a deeper level was the connection with the land and the family home and the women displaying their strength in varying ways.  Scarlett gets the most attention, but I always admired Melanie the most.  I named my daughter for her.

There was a point that I said I would never watch it again unless it ended differently.  Now I can watch and appreciate parts of it.  It is a magnificent and deeply flawed movie that deserves to be remember for the good and the bad in it.

Edited February 12, 2017 by Suzn
Correction

[Crisopera]

I can't watch GWTW any more, even having loved it as a teenager (and the book as well).  Just can't do it.  Doesn't matter that the production is magnificent, as are the performances.  The attitudes are just too grotesque.  I agree with Suzn above, though, that it certainly shouldn't be banned, just as Birth of a Nation shouldn't be banned  - people need to know just how poisonous and insidious racial stereotyping is.  

On a completely other tack, I watched Good News for the umpteenth time.  Now, this is a movie which is quite flawed (it's hard to believe that MGM considered June Allyson a "singing" star with her foghorn, the women's costumes and hairstyles barely make a nod to the 1920s period - open-toed platform anklestrap sandals!  Shoulder pads!  Form-fitting, ever-so-slightly dropped-waist dresses!), but I just love it.  The skinny, British Peter Lawford, while hardly credible as a football star, is absolutely adorable, Joan McCracken and Ray MacDonald are wonderful dancers and charming together. The number "The French Lesson" always gives me a laugh when it becomes readily apparent that Peter Lawford is much more comfortable with French than June Allyson, who is supposed to be teaching it to him.  Some of the numbers are fabulous.  And here I'm going to be a hypocrite - "Pass That Peace Pipe", even with its blindingly-white cast and use of stereotypical "Injun" imagery, is still one of my favorite numbers of any musical.  That and "The Varsity Drag."   Love this movie.

Edited February 13, 2017 by Crisopera

[Rinaldo]

46 minutes ago, Crisopera said:

the women's costumes and hairstyles barely make a nod to the 1920s period - open-toed platform anklestrap sandals!  Shoulder pads!  Form-fitting, ever-so-slightly dropped-waist dresses!)

That's so characteristic of so many big-budget movies of that time -- I mean, I know we've all discussed here how "period" costuming in movies is hardly ever accurate because it inevitably bears the stamp of the current time and taste, and in general I'm happy to accept a modest gesture and go with it. But sometimes one just has to laugh a bit, even as one continues to enjoy the movie. I recently saw all of East of Eden for the first time, and it was disconcerting, 10 minutes in, to realize that it was supposed to be set during WWI, because till then it had looked like pure 1950s leisure wear, with the preppy sweaters and all. And I've noticed how many Judy Garland movies set in a previous time will outright abandon it to show off her figure in one song: it happens in In the Good Old Summertime when she performs with a band and suddenly the turn-of-the-century look is abandoned for a hotcha red dress, and in For Me and My Gal, which overall has a fairly convincing 1915 look, but then she and Gene Kelly do "Ballin' the Jack" onstage and she's wearing short shorts that are a bit startling even now.

56 minutes ago, Crisopera said:

And here I'm going to be a hypocrite - "Pass That Peace Pipe", even with its blindingly-white cast and use of stereotypical "Injun" imagery, is still one of my favorite numbers of any musical.  That and "The Varsity Drag."

I'll join you at the hypocrite table, because I can't bring myself to resist "Pass That Peace Pipe" either. Not only does it have tremendous verve and fun, it (the whole movie, but especially this song) is just about our only chance to enjoy the considerable talents of Joan McCracken on film. And speaking of foghorn voices! One doesn't expect a noise like that from the mouth of a little slip of a thing like McCracken. She was a fascinating figure, one of that wave of early-40s ballet-trained people who went into acting (Bambi Lynn, James Mitchell, Allyn Ann McLerie), and someone who was pretty near a star onstage (and Bob Fosse's second wife) but never quite clicked in the movies. Her story is told in one of the best show-business biographies ever, The Girl Who Fell Down. (The title derived, of course, from the bit of business that made her stand out from the dancing ensemble in Oklahoma!) The author makes a good case that hers was the combination of gifts at the right time to create the category of "dancer-comedienne" that made possible a career like Gwen Verdon's.

[Milburn Stone]

+1 for Joan McCracken and "Pass That Peace Pipe."

There's a great performance of the song by Sammy Davis Jr. on a long out-of-print LP on MGM Records (never reissued on CD) called That's Entertainment, with Nelson Riddle orchestrations more in his movie-musical-scoring vein than in his jazz-pop vein.

https://www.discogs.com/Sammy-Davis-Jr-Thats-Entertainment/release/2390991 

[Crisopera]

1 hour ago, Rinaldo said:

I recently saw all of East of Eden for the first time, and it was disconcerting, 10 minutes in, to realize that it was supposed to be set during WWI, because till then it had looked like pure 1950s leisure wear, with the preppy sweaters and all. And I've noticed how many Judy Garland movies set in a previous time will outright abandon it to show off her figure in one song: it happens in In the Good Old Summertime when she performs with a band and suddenly the turn-of-the-century look is abandoned for a hotcha red dress, and in For Me and My Gal, which overall has a fairly convincing 1915 look, but then she and Gene Kelly do "Ballin' the Jack" onstage and she's wearing short shorts that are a bit startling even now.

It took me at least a couple of viewings of Ziegfeld Girl to realize that it was set in the 1920s.  It wasn't till I paid more attention and realized that James Stewart was actually playing a bootlegger - the costumes don't even make a nod to the 1920s.  Still enjoy the silly thing, though.

Walter Plunkett was one of the few designers who really made an effort to be historically accurate - look at Singing in the Rain and, ahem, Gone with the Wind.

Edited February 13, 2017 by Crisopera

[Milburn Stone]

10 hours ago, Crisopera said:

Walter Plunkett was one of the few designers who really made an effort to be historically accurate - look at Singing in the Rain...

Great observation. His wardrobing is one of the things that makes the movie as much fun as it is.

[prican58]

Over time I have seen this actor in movie after movie from the 30s-60s and I never learned his name. Saw him for the first time in Roaring Twenties and just now I saw him in The Informer. I decided to look him up and damn if he didn't have a fairly interesting life.  Joe Sawyer.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0768178/?ref_=nmbio_bio_nm

Edited February 14, 2017 by prican58

[SeanC]

From today's TCM schedule, I watched Imitation of Life (1934) & Imitation of Life (1959). Both films were considered progressive for the time period, but in that regard the 1959 version has aged a lot better overall. Both films involve a white woman and her black maid, and their relationships with their children; in the latter case, the maid's very light-skinned daughter really wants to pass for white, to the point of renouncing her connection with her mother. The 1934 version, which is more faithful to the source material from what I've read, has aged a lot worse, e.g., Claudette Colbert basically uses her maid's pancake recipe and labour to found a business empire, offers her 20% ownership of a business wholly founded on her contributions, and the maid turns this down because it turns out she doesn't want to be rich or have her own house, she just wants to stay and look after the white folks. Honestly, the maid's daughter in this version should be genuinely pissed off with her mother about that. Conversely, the 1959 film omits the pancake business stuff entirely in favour of Lana Turner being merely a successful actress and the maid, played by Juanita Moore, just being a helpful maid. In that sense, perhaps, she's less of a contributor, but it also avoids making her a doormat Mammy stereotype (the plot really wouldn't work if Moore's character became a rich and successful businesswoman).

The 1959 film is a Douglas Sirk film, the best of the four I've seen by him yet. The Technicolour cinematography is ravishingly beautiful, and he knows his way around making melodrama work. He's also bulked up the black characters' plot relative to the original, which spends a disproportionate amount of time on a rather dull plot involving the white characters; the revised version of the latter plot in the 1959 film is also better, evidently a vehicle for Sirk to express his feelings about Hollywood. If there's one way I think the 1934 film has a real advantage, it's that the maid's daughter is played by an actual light-skinned black actress there; the 1959 version casts an actress who is half-Jewish, half-Mexican. Claudette Colbert is also a better actress than Lana Turner, but Turner's fine.

[ratgirlagogo]

A disheartening event - the IMDB is disabling its message boards as of February 20th.

http://www.imdb.com/board/announcement

I never used them that much since I found them to be so troll-heavy that it was hard to have any kind of serious discussion there for long - but I did consult  them and the idea that things like Twitter and Facebook and Pinterest will provide  a useful alternative is nuts to me.  Especially for discussing the older films we talk about here.  Thank all the gods for PreviouslyTV - like TCM, it is So Much Better Than It Has To Be (to quote TWOP).

Edited February 15, 2017 by ratgirlagogo

[Rinaldo]

Awww... I hate that. I admit I didn't use the message boards often, and a substantial percentage of those who did use them were trolls and idiots. But for seldom-screened movies, that was sometimes the only place I could find any comments at all. That discussion is not going to be picked up on social media. I have to believe that there's some additional reason that they're not telling.

[Calvada]

I never used the IMDB message boards.  I really enjoy this forum, as I enjoyed the forum at TWOP.  What I really like about this particular thread is the respect for the opinions of others that runs through it.  If I say I like a particular movie, someone else can say they've never enjoyed that movie and why, but I don't feel as if my opinion matters less, or that I've been attacked for having it. 

On another topic, I am thrilled to learn that the theme for TCM in April will be character actors.  I can't wait for the discussions about Thelma Ritter, Edward Everett Horton, and the many others who will be featured. 

[Padma]

Ah,TCM! Thanks for putting "A Hard Day's Night" on On Demand for those of us who missed the letter "H". I'd forgotten how great it is--acting, directing, script and, of course, music.  Half a century ago and still so fresh and clever and fun..

[Rinaldo]

Today the M's brought us The Music Man -- which TCM has given us several times lately, but I don't care because I never get tired of it. We talked about it many pages back, so I needn't again, but I just love it. Thank you, Meredith Willson, Morton Da Costa, Onna White, Robert Preston, Shirley Jones, Ronny Howard, Pert Kelton, Buffalo Bills, Paul Ford, Hermione Gingold, Timmy Everett, Susan Luckey, and on and on....

Edited February 19, 2017 by Rinaldo

[Padma]

We didn't go to movies much when I was a child, but we did go to The Music Man. They were in the train scene when my mother decided it was one of the worst movies she'd ever seen and we all had to leave.

When I saw it years later I was shocked that it was so wonderful, including the fantastic train scene setting up Hill's character in such a clever way. I've seen it now so many times--only caught the last half today, but it's always enjoyable and has the greatest group of character actors that are each important (fitting ensemble for the small town feeling).  Hard to imagine Jack Warner wanted Grant to replace Preston (saved by Grant's good sense on things like that).  Bringing it full circle with my other film of the night, Meredith Wilson's widow said they made more royalties from the Beatles' recording of "Till There Was You" than from the musical itself.  It would be hard to choose the most quintessentially "American" musical, but for me it would probably be a toss up among Music Man,  West Side Story and Porgy and Bess  -- although Music Man is the one of the three that I'd most easily watch over and over again.

[Wiendish Fitch]

I love The Music Man! Okay, maybe the resolution is kind of iffy, but the movie as a whole is so breezy and high-spirited that all is forgiven. Robert Preston is an exquisite Harold Hill, making him so fun, energetic and charismatic that it's easy to forget he's one of the biggest anti-heroes in musicals. The speak-singing he does (since Preston had never sung in his life) actually works perfectly, because Hill does operate like an auctioneer and/or evangelist preacher.

And am I the only one who thinks "Shipoopi" is one of the most gorgeous dance numbers ever? I'm a sucker for the aesthetic of various shades of pink against a dark blue background, and it just makes for a visual feast. It makes me despise the 2003 ABC/Wonderful World of Disney remake of The Music Man where the whole damn film is sepia-filtered within an inch of its life. Yeah, yeah, maybe they were trying to recreate photographs of that era, but why would you want that aesthetic in a family film anyway?

Edited February 19, 2017 by Wiendish Fitch

[Rinaldo]

I left the TV on this morning while I went upstairs and showered, and when I emerged to get dressed, I heard the faint strains of a piano playing "Night and Day" under two people talking. So I thought, "Cool, we've reached N and the Cole Porter bio Night and Day!" when the soundtrack thundered out with the big theme from the Tchaikovsky "Pathetique" symphony, and I was flummoxed. What movie in the world could contain both those pieces of music? and then I heard the musical theme that became the song "Wrong, Would It Be Wrong?" and I realized the answer. Now, Voyager, of course!

7 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Robert Preston is an exquisite Harold Hill, making him so fun, energetic and charismatic that it's easy to forget he's one of the biggest anti-heroes in musicals.

Agreed about Preston, of course, but is it true about Harold Hill? I once sat down to figure out how his "boys' band" con works, and deduced that it must be the most inept con ever. What do the townspeople pay for? Instruments, which they get. Uniforms, which they get. (And they may not even pay all they owe on those, as Marcellus has to dash around collecting payment at the last minute, once the threat of exposure is imminent.) They don't get the promised lessons, but have they paid for them in advance? Meanwhile, Hill himself must be paying the vendors for the instruments and uniforms -- otherwise he couldn't work the con more than once. OK, maybe he charges a markup on all those and pockets the difference. And he skips out on his hotel/etc. bill. But he has to stick around this town for weeks, and in the end has rather little in his pocket to show for it.

Actually (I said this here a year ago, I know) Hill is one of the great examples of that American folk hero, "the fraud who really isn't" (even he himself thinks he's a fraud). He promises to bring music to a joyless town -- and he does. He turns the squabbling school board into a barbershop quartet, the town gossips into a dance troupe, the troubled kid from the wrong side of the tracks into a drum major, a sad self-conscious little boy into their star cornet player. The fact that the band doesn't sound good is really minor by comparison.

7 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

And am I the only one who thinks "Shipoopi" is one of the most gorgeous dance numbers ever

The only one?? I thought that was an opinion pretty widely held. (And I totally agree about its visual gorgeousness too. That's one benefit of moving it from its stage placement -- top of Act II -- to near the end, despite the mild plot mismatch it creates. Everybody gets to dress up in their party best.) It certainly made my short list on the first page of the "Dances in Movies" thread here. Onna White is one of the unsung Great Choreographers, as far as I'm concerned. (Fun fact: she and Susan Luckey, the dancer who plays Zaneeta in this movie, were successively married to the same man.) We have had stage revues devoted to the work of Jerome Robbins, Bob Fosse... I think Onna White deserves one too. Except that all her great dances that I can think of are for big groups (the whole cast and chorus) -- no solos or duets. What would go on the list? "Shipoopi," "Marian the Librarian," "Consider Yourself," "A Lot of Living To Do," "Mame," and from the stage "I Had a Ball" (look for the Ed Sullivan Show video). Great stuff.

7 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

It makes me despise the 2003 ABC/Wonderful World of Disney remake of The Music Man

I really really tried to be fair to this when watching, telling myself "don't compare, see it on its own merits," but any virtues it has are incidental, and the missteps are big. One of the biggest is the handling of "Shipoopi." They put it near the end like the movie (but still restored the "Pickalittle" reprise halfway through, which it's supposed to motivate), but absolutely killed its point. It's a burst of high spirits for everyone, yes, but it's also the moment when Harold and Marian publicly pair off and lead the fun in front of everyone, showing them the newfangled One-Step. And none of that happened. (And with a terrific choreographer too, Kathleen Marshall. She must have been asked specifically for this.) A big problem was that the supporting cast is designed to be inhabited by a great group of character actors, as @Padma pointed out above, and instead we had... I don't know what they were thinking. Victor Garber and Molly Shannon are fine performers within their own ranges, but that range isn't within a mile of the Shinns. Do we just not have character people any more, or did they feel the need to have equally "off" casting in all those roles to match the oddness of Matthew Broderick?

Edited February 19, 2017 by Rinaldo

[Padma]

9 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

....Agreed about Preston, of course, but is it true about Harold Hill? I once sat down to figure out how his "boys' band" con works, and deduced that it must be the most inept con ever. What do the townspeople pay for? Instruments, which they get. Uniforms, which they get. (And they may not even pay all they owe on those, as Marcellus has to dash around collecting payment at the last minute, once the threat of exposure is imminent.) They don't get the promised lessons, but have they paid for them in advance? Meanwhile, Hill himself must be paying the vendors for the instruments and uniforms -- otherwise he couldn't work the con more than once. OK, maybe he charges a markup on all those and pockets the difference. And he skips out on his hotel/etc. bill. But he has to stick around this town for weeks, and in the end has rather little in his pocket to show for it.

Very interesting info about Onna White and I wish that "retrospective" would come true, would love to see it.

Also very happy to know that others enjoy"Shipoopi". Beautiful choreography and so much romanticism. I just love when Tommy calls to Hill (reinforcing how sophisticated, yet kind, a figure he's become in this town) and Hill, of course, quickly complies showing them the "latest", politely dancing with the two nearest girls before winding up with Marion who flows with it just as if they were always meant to be. So fun.

But mainly, I wanted to post re Rinaldo's observation above which I'd "like" 20xs if PTV made it possible. Because...why didn't I ever think of that? What the heck kind of con man is Harold Hill anyway? It's set up from the beginning that he was the bane of other salesmen, and until right now I've always bought into it. But, you're so right.

It's probably the lamest "con" in history! He collects -some- of the money, gives them their instruments and gets the rest when the uniforms come then will get out of town, taking money. But... he still leaves them with instruments and uniforms. He's no music teacher, and he may be stiffing the hotel, but how much -really- could he be absconding with? Wouldn't a -real- con man take money and leave BEFORE the (non-existent) uniforms and instruments arrived?

And yes he can't play anything and obviously can't read a note of music so ... not much of a band leader, but the town more than got their money's worth.

Quote

Actually (I said this here a year ago, I know) Hill is one of the great examples of that American folk hero, "the fraud who really isn't" (even he himself thinks he's a fraud). He promises to bring music to a joyless town -- and he does. He turns the squabbling school board into a barbershop quartet, the town gossips into a dance troupe, the troubled kid from the wrong side of the tracks into a drum major, a sad self-conscious little boy into their star cornet player. The fact that the band doesn't sound good is really minor by comparison....

I wasn't here a year ago so thanks for saying it again! I -love- this idea of Hill as an iconic folk hero who turns this dreary bickering town in a joyful town where people have come together and learned to get along all through music! (He was right about that pool hall all along--they DID need a boys' band.... and today it would be co-ed :)).

The idea of Marion falling for a conman was a little sketchy, but Hill-as-a-folk hero who now actually has hooked up with someone who -does- have musical knowledge makes it a perfect modern fable.  Nice insight, Rinaldo, and it makes me love this perfect movie even more!

Edited February 20, 2017 by Padma

[Crisopera]

Like everyone else, I LOVE The Music Man - what a great musical.  One of the very best.  For that awful TV remake - Kristen Chenoweth is fine as Marian, but how in God's name could anyone have thought that the introverted Matthew Broderick would have made even a passable Harold Hill?  I mean, almost anyone would have been better!  (I dream of a revival with Norbert Leo Butz, for example - that and A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum.)

[Rinaldo]

(Thanks for the kind words, @Padma.)

My own never-to-be dream casting for Harold Hill was Brian Stokes Mitchell. He has the outgoing persona, the charisma, the moves, the romantic charm to win Marian despite her best intention, the rhythmic snap in his delivery, and of course more than enough voice for the modest demands of the role. It's never going to happen now, of course, but it could have been a helluva production.

[mariah23]

Richard Schickel has died.

[Milburn Stone]

R.I.P. Richard Schickel. He was a good movie critic, and there never have been very many good ones.

Re Harold Hill, I love reading the sober analyses of why his con makes no sense. So true, yet I never thought about it! And of course the reason I never did is the same reason the show works, because there is a truth happening on another level. Namely, the truth that playing musical instruments is hard, and owning one is not the same as being able to play one. Generations of parents--millions and millions of parents--have learned the hard way that having a piano in the house is not the magical solution for turning children into musicians. Generations of teenagers have learned that getting a guitar does not magically turn you into a guitarist, no matter how much you thought it would. The American landscape is littered with musical instruments that never got mastered! And a town full of marching band instruments is, sadly, not a town that makes music. (At least we don't think it will be!) I think the plot works because so many in the audience have learned this bitter truth from their own lives, and it resonates with them on that level. And the fantasy of the ending is jubilant because for the time being it makes us believe the promise all over again. Meredith Willson was the real Harold Hill.

[ratgirlagogo]

8 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

 

R.I.P. Richard Schickel. He was a good movie critic, and there never have been very many good ones.

 

Very true.  Another 2017 bummer.

[Wiendish Fitch]

Lin-Manuel Miranda played Harold Hill (or a Hill-like character) in a Music Man parody on SNL, and, dammit all, I now want to see him in the part for real. Hey, why not? He has presence, charisma, can dance, sing, and his rap skills will more than come in handy.

[Rinaldo]

I hope I needn't add (I figured it was obvious) that my nitpicking the working of Harold Hill's scam does not affect my adoration of The Music Man one iota. I always enjoyed it, and in recent years have come to realize that it actually has touching depths as well. That "analysis" is the idle byproduct of devoted fandom. For those equally devoted, here's a glossary of the now-obscure terms and names Willson included. Here is an even more detailed reference source, including an answer to the question on everyone's mind, "Is it possible that those six great bandleaders could all have come to town on the same historic day?"

Another example of the "fraud who actually can do what he pretends to" scenario appears in N. Richard Nash's play The Rainmaker, about a traveling huckster who guarantees to bring rain for a price, and a lonely spinster in a parched Western town who blossoms under his attention. And one minute before the final curtain, of course it starts to rain. This was filmed with the beyond-perfect casting of Burt Lancaster and Katharine Hepburn, and was made into a musical (110 in the Shade) by the Fantasticks team, Schmidt and Jones. It's commonly summed up as "The Music Man with rain instead of band instruments," but it's a good musical, of let's say the second rank, that ought to be better known. Unfortunately it was never filmed.

[Milburn Stone]

40 minutes ago, Rinaldo said:

I hope I needn't add (I figured it was obvious) that my nitpicking the working of Harold Hill's scam does not affect my adoration of The Music Man one iota. I always enjoyed it, and in recent years have come to realize that it actually has touching depths as well. That "analysis" is the idle byproduct of devoted fandom.

You're right, it was obvious, and there was no misunderstanding on my part.

[Padma]

1 hour ago, Rinaldo said:

Another example of the "fraud who actually can do what he pretends to" scenario appears in N. Richard Nash's play The Rainmaker, about a traveling huckster who guarantees to bring rain for a price, and a lonely spinster in a parched Western town who blossoms under his attention. And one minute before the final curtain, of course it starts to rain. This was filmed with the beyond-perfect casting of Burt Lancaster and Katharine Hepburn, and was made into a musical (110 in the Shade) by the Fantasticks team, Schmidt and Jones. It's commonly summed up as "The Music Man with rain instead of band instruments," but it's a good musical, of let's say the second rank, that ought to be better known. Unfortunately it was never filmed.

I enjoy The Rainmaker (must remember to see if it's up in "R" on TCM, as it's been a while).  And Burt Lancaster is certainly a charismatic con man.  However, beyond the con--and the dreary town (that's a whole lot drearier than River City), I balk at the idea the story is very much like The Music Man.

Hill, as you pointed out so well, is a con man who actually delivers on his promise.  Lancaster is a con man, through and through. He takes the family's hard-earned $100 in exchange for bringing rain (and with the expectation of leaving with the cash and no rain.)  Yes, Lizzy finds love and her life "blooms" like a rain came into it (yep, obvious), but he still took their money under false pretenses.

And, yes, it rains.  But Hill actually brought music to RC.  Starbuck didn't bring rain, he just got lucky with nature's own timing. When it ends, his energy and charisma were a catalyst for changing people's lives, but he's still a con man moving on to his next con.  Very different from Hill, who throughout the story kept proving himself to basically be a very decent guy.

[Rinaldo]

I told myself "let it go" rather than continue the discussion with @Padma, but after 3 days I find that there are just a few more words I want to say on the subject. Really, I do agree with the overall point -- The Rainmaker (or 110 in the Shade) isn't as tightly knit in its elements as The Music Man, all the subliminal pieces don't click into place quite as satisfyingly, for the reasons mentioned. And for that reason, I think, it hasn't lived on in popular memory as other plays/musicals/movies have that really capture something meaningful for a lot of people.

But I'll still say that it has something, and there are some parallels even if they diverge. BOTH Harold Hill and Starbuck took the town's money under false pretenses: as far as their conscious minds were aware, they had no way of bringing music/rain into these people's lives, and they were going to skip town when the time was right. And they both found themselves trapped by the personal element. In Starbuck's case it's really one person rather than a whole family or community (and yes, to that extent less resonant), but the help is real, and on the whole (I write after not seeing it for a few years) offered without self-interest: we can say that it's part of his flimflam patter to flatter people, but he does lead her to see her own specialness and feel good about herself. The sexual encounter, if any (I forget how clear 1950s movie conventions, or indeed the original play, are about this), is secondary to that.

And the rain does come. I suppose one can debunk any miracle by saying that the miracle-worker got lucky, but in dramatic terms, the miracle happens because it's dramatically right that it happen. He fulfills his bargain with everybody. And there's the twist (which some viewers like better than others) that, having awakened to her own value, Lizzy chooses not Starbuck but the man she knows in her own town who likes her as she is and doesn't think she needs to be enhanced. Even if it's not a near-perfect embodiment of this folk myth as The Music Man is, it's still a good one.

On another point, it's entertaining to watch the movie now and see it almost bursting to become a musical. Alex North's score is very much in the foreground at times, and some scenes are very noticeably underscored, nowhere more so than when Burt Lancaster acts out his improvised story of King Hamlet and the fair Melisande. His physicality has seldom been better used, and the orchestra punctuates his moves ("Mickey-Mousing" is the technical term :) ) almost beat by beat.

[Rinaldo]

What a pleasure to find that The Seven Per Cent Solution is playing this evening. I adored this movie (having read the book it's based on) when it was new, and I haven't seen it for years now. A nifty idea (what if Sherlock Holmes was taken to Sigmund Freud to have his addiction cured, and then they solved a case together?), and entertaining casting. I'm no fan of Nicol Williamson in general, but as a nervous, twitchy, short-tempered Holmes he's just right. Beside him, Robert Duvall sporting a posh accent as Dr. Watson. Alan Arkin gentle but determined as Dr. Freud. And swirling around them, Vanessa Redgrave, Joel Grey, Laurence Olivier, and more. Lush design by Ken Adam, cinematography by Oswald Morris, and a score by John Addison (plus a new song by Stephen Sondheim). Yum.

[Milburn Stone]

Damn! Meant to DVR this. I enjoyed it back in the day.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Milburn Stone

[bmoore4026]

I could kick myself for missing 7 Brides for 7 Brothers.  I want to see it, in spite of the blatant Stockholm Syndrome undercurrents.  And, yet, Beauty and the Beast  continues to get flack for it.

[Milburn Stone]

8 hours ago, bmoore4026 said:

I could kick myself for missing 7 Brides for 7 Brothers.  I want to see it, in spite of the blatant Stockholm Syndrome undercurrents.  And, yet, Beauty and the Beast  continues to get flack for it.

Speaking of BatB, I saw a promo ad last night for what looks like a totally unnecessary live-action film remake of it from Disney. And what's worse, in the singing of the title song that was used in the promo, they got the melody wrong. (Instead of going for the low note on "rhyme" in the part at the end that goes "tale as old as time, song as old as rhyme"--a low note that seems to give the entire song its meaning, somehow--they changed it to a higher note. Why, why?)

[Rinaldo]

I haven't seen the promo (I'm trying to stay away from anything about this remake, as I think the animated film is magnificent), but is it possible they're re-using the pop version (Céline Dion & Peabo Bryson) that was sung over the end credits of that movie? Promos often do re-purpose older music, as they have to be made before the final cut of the forthcoming film is ready. (I'm trying to scrape together some vestige of hope.)

[Inquisitionist]

1 hour ago, Milburn Stone said:

Speaking of BatB, I saw a promo ad last night for what looks like a totally unnecessary live-action film remake of it from Disney.

Unnecessary is in the eye of the beholder.  My niece did some script research for the live-action version of Mulan that is also in the works, so I'm glad for her!

[Milburn Stone]

8 minutes ago, Inquisitionist said:

Unnecessary is in the eye of the beholder.  My niece did some script research for the live-action version of Mulan that is also in the works, so I'm glad for her!

So am I. :)

And your theory is plausible, @Rinaldo. The version in the promo is a duet, and it kind of sounded like them, and if Celine/Peabo changed the low note, that probably nails it.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Milburn Stone

[Charlie Baker]

I saw a promo for the live action BandtB that makes it look like a dark action/adventure non-musical.  Sigh.

I only wish there were more of "I Never Do Anything Twice" in Seven Percent Solution.  And one of my favorite Duvall performances, simply because it was so atypical for him and he pulls it off so well. 

Only caught a bit of the 1951 Show Boat this morning--but it was Marge and Gower Champion doing "I Might Fall Back On You" and worth interrupting my morning to watch.  Delightful number. And my, Gower was a handsome man.

[bmoore4026]

8 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Speaking of BatB, I saw a promo ad last night for what looks like a totally unnecessary live-action film remake of it from Disney. And what's worse, in the singing of the title song that was used in the promo, they got the melody wrong. (Instead of going for the low note on "rhyme" in the part at the end that goes "tale as old as time, song as old as rhyme"--a low note that seems to give the entire song its meaning, somehow--they changed it to a higher note. Why, why?)

That reminds me - animated movies won't ever be on shown on the 31 Days of Oscar, will they?  Mostly because a lot are owned by Disney or Sony.  Seems a shame. 

Also, on the subject of fairy tales, The Slipper and the Rose was on today.  It is more of a superior film than the Disney remake.  Songs, the acting, the cinematography.  And I like Richard Madden and Lily James and Cate Blanchett and all of them.  But Slipper and The Rose seems to have more heart.  Plus Sherman Brothers songs.  You can't go wrong with Sherman Brothers songs.  And the film isn't afraid to be a musical, largely because the mocking of musical tropes wasn't in vogue yet.  Maybe La La Land is changing that?

[Rinaldo]

5 hours ago, Charlie Baker said:

I only wish there were more of "I Never Do Anything Twice" in Seven Percent Solution.

I understand the feeling -- it's such a naughty double-entendre-laden song. But I feel like we get the right amount of it in the movie; we shouldn't stop for a whole cabaret number from Régine when the story needs to continue. And I have the feeling (indeed, I may have read it somewhere) that Sondheim figured that the real life of the song would be in separate performances, with just a sliver sufficing for the film.

5 hours ago, Charlie Baker said:

And one of my favorite Duvall performances, simply because it was so atypical for him and he pulls it off so well. 

Isn't that the truth. Somehow this doesn't often get mentioned among Duvall's great performances (of which there are many), and on one or two occasions I've seen the suggestion that the performance and his accent are embarrassingly bad. Hmpf. Those people are wrong, that's all. He's great. I wonder who first thought of him for Watson.

5 hours ago, Charlie Baker said:

Only caught a bit of the 1951 Show Boat this morning--but it was Marge and Gower Champion doing "I Might Fall Back On You" and worth interrupting my morning to watch.  Delightful number. And my, Gower was a handsome man.

Marge and Gower made regular appearances on the variety TV series of my youth, like Dinah Shore and Garry Moore. Yes, he was always a cutie. I must say, though, that delightful as their routine is in this Show Boat, they seem to be in a different movie from the one we've hitherto been watching. They're doing a slick nightclub routine, with trick editing to enable instant costume changes. Which I could enjoy, but in a different movie. (I actually have come around to a greater appreciation for this version of Show Boat than I used to have.)

Ah, The Slipper and the Rose: The Story of Cinderella ! (The movie title that sounds like a PhD dissertation title. ☺ ) I've loved it since I first caught it on opening day in DC. I enjoy watching it every time it comes up, even as I recognize that it's overextended for the kind of story it is. (It needed a ruthless American producer during production.) Doubly overextended: First the slipper search doesn't work, so time passes and then the valet just sort of accidentally notices Cindy and gets them together after all. Then she's a problem because, not being a princess, she doesn't provide the advantageous alliance needed, so she goes into exile. Then the prince snits that he'll marry whoever but never have sex with her. Then the fairy godmother shows up at the wedding, blows her magic bugle to bring Cindy back, and rearranges the couples according to their actual preferences (which she could have done months before). The end, finally. I'm all for upsetting our preconceptions in a well-known tale, but all this could have been handled more... deftly, I think.

AND STILL I love it all. I would definitely call this the Sherman brothers' best score, and it's aided enormously by fine vocal performances and the gorgeous orchestrations of Angela Morley. The waltz at the ball is 3 minutes of visual and aural bliss. And the performances of Margaret Lockwood and Annette Crosbie (of everyone, really, but I particularly adore them) are impeccable.

[Padma]

On ‎2‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 8:41 AM, Rinaldo said:

I told myself "let it go" rather than continue the discussion with @Padma, but after 3 days I find that there are just a few more words I want to say on the subject. Really, I do agree with the overall point -- The Rainmaker (or 110 in the Shade) isn't as tightly knit in its elements as The Music Man, all the subliminal pieces don't click into place quite as satisfyingly, for the reasons mentioned. And for that reason, I think, it hasn't lived on in popular memory as other plays/musicals/movies have that really capture something meaningful for a lot of people.

But I'll still say that it has something, and there are some parallels even if they diverge. BOTH Harold Hill and Starbuck took the town's money under false pretenses: as far as their conscious minds were aware, they had no way of bringing music/rain into these people's lives, and they were going to skip town when the time was right. And they both found themselves trapped by the personal element. In Starbuck's case it's really one person rather than a whole family or community (and yes, to that extent less resonant), but the help is real, and on the whole (I write after not seeing it for a few years) offered without self-interest: we can say that it's part of his flimflam patter to flatter people, but he does lead her to see her own specialness and feel good about herself. The sexual encounter, if any (I forget how clear 1950s movie conventions, or indeed the original play, are about this), is secondary to that.

And the rain does come. I suppose one can debunk any miracle by saying that the miracle-worker got lucky, but in dramatic terms, the miracle happens because it's dramatically right that it happen. He fulfills his bargain with everybody. And there's the twist (which some viewers like better than others) that, having awakened to her own value, Lizzy chooses not Starbuck but the man she knows in her own town who likes her as she is and doesn't think she needs to be enhanced. Even if it's not a near-perfect embodiment of this folk myth as The Music Man is, it's still a good one..

Yes, well, sorry to add just one more thing, but we definitely mostly agree about both movies. And I would have agreed with you even more about both movies/plays if I hadn't just revised my opinion after reading your post about Hill, that he wasn't really that much of a conman after all.  

But I still completely agree that both men show the -real- transformations that are possible, even (especially?) from a charismatic con artist. I'm not much for miracles. so I accept the rain as a metaphor.  For many, it would work literally as an affirmation of faith and, either way, it's a really good movie.  I'm fascinated by the psychology of the conman/huckster, so I wish more films would show it (having happy endings as Rainmaker and Music Man is a nice bonus.)

Just for fun, I think there's enough for a quick "Top 5 list" on this, re: voiceover's earlier idea:  
My Top 5 Con Artist Films

The Music Man
The Rainmaker
Elmer Gantry
Trading Places
Dirty Rotten Scoundrels

On another point, it's entertaining to watch the movie now and see it almost bursting to become a musical. Alex North's score is very much in the foreground at times, and some scenes are very noticeably underscored, nowhere more so than when Burt Lancaster acts out his improvised story of King Hamlet and the fair Melisande. His physicality has seldom been better used, and the orchestra punctuates his moves ("Mickey-Mousing" is the technical term :) ) almost beat by beat.

Couldn't agree more. It's such a natural.

[3pwood]

29 minutes ago, Padma said:

... Just for fun, I think there's enough for a quick "Top 5 list" on this, re: voiceover's earlier idea:  
My Top 5 Con Artist Films

The Music Man
The Rainmaker
Elmer Gantry
Trading Places
Dirty Rotten Scoundrels

...

 

Of that list, I've only seen Elmer Gantry, plus bits & pieces of The Music Man & The Rainmaker.  But what about The Sting?

[ratgirlagogo]

1 hour ago, 3pwood said:

My Top 5 Con Artist Films

Oh, this is a good one.  I'll be back once I think about it. Oh, WTF, I'll just do titles now and come back later.   The Sting is definitely one for me. The Lady Eve.  After the Fox.  The original Gambit.  Also Dirty Rotten Scoundrels kind of gets some kind of special prize for me because it is such a vast improvement on the original, Bedtime Story. Oh, and how could I forget The Wizard of Oz?

Edited February 26, 2017 by ratgirlagogo

[Rinaldo]

The alphabetical "31 days" this year gives us an unexpected TCM choice for the "prime time Saturday" slot: Summer of ’42. (Unexpected, not because I think it's worse than other things they've shown, but if it's remembered now, it's as a nice romantic summer-movie indulgence, right? It must have been an ideal dating flick.)

One thing comes to mind as I revisit the beginning: You know how they often say that Laura (whatever its others virtues) would never have become the classic it is without David Raksin's music? There aren't many examples of (nonmusical) movies "made" by their score, but I think Summer of ’42 is another. Man, is Michel Legrand's theme beautiful. The movie wouldn't be remotely the same without it.

[Silver Raven]

1 hour ago, Rinaldo said:

a nice romantic summer-movie indulgence

With an older woman and a teenaged boy.  Creepy.

[Sharpie66]

4 hours ago, 3pwood said:

Of that list, I've only seen Elmer Gantry, plus bits & pieces of The Music Man & The Rainmaker.  But what about The Sting?

The Sting is the film that made me fall in love with the con-man genre!! It really is the quill. 

[Rinaldo]

2 hours ago, Silver Raven said:

With an older woman and a teenaged boy.  Creepy.

Maybe, but to most straight teenaged boys at the time it probably looked like a dream come true. Especially as the "older woman" was played by a beautiful ex-model who was just 22.

[LauraAnders]

15 hours ago, ratgirlagogo said:

Oh, this is a good one.  I'll be back once I think about it. Oh, WTF, I'll just do titles now and come back later.   The Sting is definitely one for me. The Lady Eve.  After the Fox.  The original Gambit.  Also Dirty Rotten Scoundrels kind of gets some kind of special prize for me because it is such a vast improvement on the original, Bedtime Story. Oh, and how could I forget The Wizard of Oz?

The Lady Eve is probably one of my top ten all time favorites. I've never thought of it as a con man story. I'd call it a comedy and/or love story. But it is full of con people. So I guess that works.

But for anyone who has never seen it, I think it may well be Barbara Stanwyck's best movie. It's wonderful!

[Rinaldo]

Its so hard to choose a "best" from among all Stanwyck's movies, though, isn't it? She was invariably good, whatever the genre.

For another great "con artist" film, I would have to name The Grifters. It's not exactly a light happy experience, but it sure is masterfully made, with a screenplay by my favorite novelist, Donald E. Westlake. (He also wrote The Stepfather, a suspense masterpiece in a very different vein. Somehow, the movies adapted from his books by others never worked out as well.)

[Padma]

20 hours ago, 3pwood said:

Of that list, I've only seen Elmer Gantry, plus bits & pieces of The Music Man & The Rainmaker.  But what about The Sting?

The Sting is a great choice.  Thinking of Paul Newman reminded me of another great "con" film he did, The Hustler.  That's such a classic, but I also enjoyed the sequel with Tom Cruise as the young con man hustling pool games, The Color of Money.  Newman's great in that, too--and I think its the only film where an actor plays in the sequel as his original character, years later.

 

19 hours ago, ratgirlagogo said:

Oh, this is a good one.  I'll be back once I think about it. Oh, WTF, I'll just do titles now and come back later.   The Sting is definitely one for me. The Lady Eve.  After the Fox.  The original Gambit.  Also Dirty Rotten Scoundrels kind of gets some kind of special prize for me because it is such a vast improvement on the original, Bedtime Story. Oh, and how could I forget The Wizard of Oz?

Oh, I'd forgotten about Bedtime Story. "Vast improvement" is right! :)  Bedtime Story had Brando and Niven but was awful.  I'd never heard of After the Fox,.  As a fan of movie trivia, I enjoyed looking it up and finding out that it was Neil Simon's first screenplay.  The process of writing it sounds like a comedic nightmare in itself as director Vittorio De Sica hired as Simon's co-writer an Italian who didn't know English. They had to communicate (on writing a comedy in English) through interpreters.

As if that wasn't bad enough, De Sica's two editors didn't know English either so, as Simon later noted, they often missed the jokes.  Eventually, an editor who -did- know English (and was a favorite of John Huston), did recut it, but Simon still thought a some of Peter Seller's funniest moments were left on the cutting room floor in Rome.  Quite an initiation for him into the quirks of movie-making.

[prican58]

Any thoughts on this?

 

http://1166199035.rsc.cdn77.org/TCM-00125_NoirAlley-Schedule.pdf

[Pyralis]

It will mean I have something to watch during my Sunday breakfasts.

In today's programming - thanks to alphabetization - I'm getting to see two of my favourite movies "Them" and "The Thin Man".  This says something about my brain if I can only figure out what.

[Rinaldo]

And I'm enjoying my re-visit to The Third Man right now. My only previous viewing impressed me for sure, but it happened before I knew how to recognize Joseph Cotten or Orson Welles. 

Man, that Carol Reed....