Spoiler Discussion: The apple was poisoned?!

[KingOfHearts]

Well, Hook is the dead man walking right now. But it sure sounds like a Robin centric...how do they kill off Robin when he's got 2 kids?

Honestly, it's this show. I wouldn't underestimate A&E. Killing off parents or sending them away is the norm for them.

Minors orphaned: Emma, Killian, Rumple, Greg, August, Gepetto, Liam, Hansel, Gretel, Baelfire, Wendy, Hipster Darlings, Percival, Anna, Elsa

Edited February 25, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

Well, Hook is the dead man walking right now.  But it sure sounds like a Robin centric...how do they kill off Robin when he's got 2 kids?

How can you kill off a character when you've just gone resurrecting one?

 

I'm having a difficult time with this. I hope the title is a play on words, but it seems to be falling in line with the speculations and what happened in 5x02 that Robin was basically a dead man walking. 

 

Is it bad that I'm hoping Zelena is the one who does him in because if he dies, I hope it has nothing to do with the Charming clan, and Regina blaming everyone for what happens to him.

Edited February 25, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Curio]

It would kind of be awesome if Robin wasn't allowed to leave the Underworld because that Fury came back and was like, "Hey, remember that lame attempt at copying Guardians of the Galaxy earlier this season? Yeah, that only stunned me temporarily. I'm here to collect your soul now." And then Regina would be like, "Wait! We already paid the price!" And the Fury would be like, "No, this is what you get for forcing Emma to try to revive your boyfriend using dark magic."

 

But that requires the writers actually using their own continuity, so this will probably be something made up at the last second involving Zelena or Hades.

[Souris]

It would kind of be awesome if Robin wasn't allowed to leave the Underworld because that Fury came back and was like, "Hey, remember that lame attempt at copying Guardians of the Galaxy earlier this season? Yeah, that only stunned me temporarily. I'm here to collect your soul now." And then Regina would be like, "Wait! We already paid the price!" And the Fury would be like, "No, this is what you get for forcing Emma to try to revive your boyfriend using dark magic."

 

But that requires the writers actually using their own continuity, so this will probably be something made up at the last second involving Zelena or Hades.

 

Yeah, I was wondering, if it is Robin, would the thing with the Fury come back into play? I'd prefer that to it happening because awful Emma got Regina's True Love killed because of going to the UW to save her awful boyfriend. (Note: sarcasm.) The hand-holding to save him really made NO sense.

[Serena]

Oh my. Prove me wrong, A&E. I still think you don't have the balls to kill Robin off. But... yeah. For as much as I don't care for Regina, as a character she has the potential to have a more entertaining love interest (one who calls her on her bullshit, preferably). But I don't think the writers are interested in giving it to her. Or capable. Or, frankly, have enough time left.

 

Unless there's a 1 year time skip between S5 and S6?

 

It WOULD be the ultimate test of her redemption arc, to put her in the same situation that "made" her the EQ and have her make different decisions...

Edited February 25, 2016 by Serena

[Rumsy4]

We have it. Last Rites. Oh, my. That sounds ... deathy.

 

This seems to indicate a Hades-centric.

 

I'm having a difficult time with this. I hope the title is a play on words, but it seems to be falling in line with the speculations and what happened in 5x02 that Robin was basically a dead man walking. 

 

I'm still not buying this theory that Robin is going to die. But even if he does, it will be a fake-out like Neal's death at the end of S2. I don't think I can bear it if S6 is S4 redux, and Regina whining over losing Robin all over again. 

[Curio]

Yeah, I was wondering, if it is Robin, would the thing with the Fury come back into play? I'd prefer that to it happening because awful Emma got Regina's True Love killed because of going to the UW to save her awful boyfriend. (Note: sarcasm.) The hand-holding to save him really made NO sense.

 

And it would also be something Regina brought upon herself. Again. The reason Robin was killed in Camelot was because of Percival seeking revenge on Regina. If Regina hadn't gone full-on psycho and burnt down Percival's village, Percival wouldn't have spent his entire life waiting for the opportunity to kill her. And if Regina hadn't lied about being the Savior, she wouldn't have received that necklace that allowed Percival to verify she was the Evil Queen. And then Regina forced Emma as The Dark One to use dark magic to bring Robin back to life. I don't think people realize how messed up that is. Instead of ethereal, angelic-looking Dark One Emma, imagine sparkly, lizard-looking Dark One Rumple performing the same task. The audience would immediately think, "Hmm, there's no way this is going to end well for Robin." Plus, furies are a part of Greek mythology and 5B takes place in the Underworld, so it wouldn't be surprising to see it come back into play this back half. So you have that, on top of the cop-out hand-holding, and the fact that Robin is barely used on the show as it is...and I'm starting to buy into this theory more.

[mjgchick]

Yeah I still don't think Robin dies. I'm banking on Emma ending Hades maybe.

[Shanna Marie]

If Robin dies, then according to the "Regina gets everything Emma has" rule, then the next arc will be about Regina finding a way to save him, with the help of all the others. Except he'll then be magically brought back to life in a way that has nothing to do with their efforts, or else after all their efforts they'll find that he isn't really dead, after all.

 

Meanwhile, the B-plot will involve some terrible anguish for Emma that keeps her from being happy. She'll either be unable to be happy with her own resurrected boyfriend while Regina is unable to be with her dead boyfriend, or resurrected Hook will be different in some way that resets their relationship, like he has things to work through and goes off on his own away from Emma, and she thinks he's mad at her but he's really just processing and mad at himself because his time in the Underworld forced him to confront his own bad deeds, still some more.

[YaddaYadda]

Souris, I have a quick question. Do Emma and Hades meet at all in 5x12? If it's too spoilery and you can't answer, it's all good.

[KingOfHearts]

They briefly show Snow talking to the Blind Witch at Granny's Underworld franchise in her interview with Kelly & Michael. (Silently) She looks pretty stunned to hear there's gingerbread and children on the menu. Can't wait for reactions like that.

[YaddaYadda]

They briefly show Snow talking to the Blind Witch at Granny's Underworld franchise in her interview with Kelly & Michael. (Silently) She looks pretty stunned to hear there's gingerbread and children on the menu. Can't wait for reactions like that.

I like how she has a coffee tray next to her. Coffee run at UnderGranny's!

[Souris]

Souris, I have a quick question. Do Emma and Hades meet at all in 5x12? If it's too spoilery and you can't answer, it's all good.

Nope. Hades is shown with only one other character.

[Serena]

Souris, what was your reaction as a CS shipper to the explanation why Emma didn't try to resurrect Neal? I saw people saying this gets addressed (her going for Hook and not Neal) with "brutal honestly" but I don't get what that means. Is that bad or good? 

[Curio]

Here's my wow-you-researched-that-WAY-too-much spoilery speculation...

There's a poem called "Last Rites" by Felicia Dorothea Hemans. In it, there are some Once-related stanzas:

By the mighty minster's bell,
Tolling with a sudden swell;
By the colors half-mast high,
O'er the seas hung mournfully;
Know, a prince hath died!

The prince could allude to the casting call for "Prince Marcus." So maybe he's the one who bites the dust.

 

By the pall of snowy white
Through the yew-trees gleaming bright;
By the garland on the bier,
Weep! a maiden claims thy tear—
Broken is the rose!

Snowy white...Snow White...the broken flower...the flower that fades in Hades's hand...

[YaddaYadda]

Maybe it's also the end of the Underworld as we know it, and everyone trapped there finally being able to move on.

[PixiePaws1]

Maybe it's also the end of the Underworld as we know it, and everyone trapped there finally being able to move on.

That was my first thought..that ominous as it sounds it might actually be a happy thing for those who Hades didn't want to let go... (Let It Go, Hades....!)

[KingOfHearts]

The prince could allude to the casting call for "Prince Marcus." So maybe he's the one who bites the dust.

So, similarly to "The Queen is Dead" and "Tricia Tanaka Is Dead", it alludes to a guest character dying.

 

Here's my wow-you-researched-that-WAY-too-much spoilery speculation...

The writing team is all over the place when it comes how clever their episode titles are. For every "Sympathy for the DeVil" and "The Heart is a Lonely Hunter" there's a "Sisters" or "Save Henry".

 

 

Yeah, I don't think they are killing Robin. And destroying the UW is a good way to justify not saving the next character that dies.

Given what little we have to go off. It's not impossible but not exactly probable either. If it did happen, it would be something like this:

 

Regina: "No Emma! I won't let you sacrifice yourself again! This time, I'm repaying the favor!"

Robin: "No you won't, Regina! I love your bold-and-audaciousness more than anyone! More than Roland, Pistachio, or Marian! For this reason, I will be the one to die so you can find happiness some other way."

Regina: "Don't Robin! If you go, I'll never get my happy ending!"

Henry: "Hey! What am I? Chopped liver?"

Edited February 25, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

Didn't it sound like they left in "Firebird"? I find it very strange that they would give an episode a title with such religious overtones. Maybe it's a Shady-centric and she has secretly been killing off citizens of Storybrooke in her guise of a nun. No? I would find that way more interesting than a Robin-centric where he fake dies again.

[RadioGirl27]

Maybe it's also the end of the Underworld as we know it, and everyone trapped there finally being able to move on.

Yeah, I don't think they are killing Robin. And destroying the UW is a good way to justify not saving the next character that dies.

[YaddaYadda]

Didn't it sound like they left in "Firebird"? I find it very strange that they would give an episode a title with such religious overtones. Maybe it's a Shady-centric and she has secretly been killing off citizens of Storybrooke in her guise of a nun. No? I would find that way more interesting than a Robin-centric where he fake dies again.

 

I'm sort of having problems with 5x20 because it doesn't seem like it resolved anything regarding Zelena being kidnapped by Rumple and Pan, or the whole James/David switching places.

 

But since they film a lot in studio, maybe it has had a resolution. I find the Hades/everyone else scene intriguing. Maybe he's telling them that no one is leaving until Zelena is found and returned.

 

I really think that Hades is going to get slapped down for what he's been doing in the UW, as in not letting death take its natural course, and hoarding souls.

[Souris]

Souris, what was your reaction as a CS shipper to the explanation why Emma didn't try to resurrect Neal? I saw people saying this gets addressed (her going for Hook and not Neal) with "brutal honestly" but I don't get what that means. Is that bad or good? 

 

I loathed that scene, even more than the 1,000 Regina scenes. I found it brutal only to me as a viewer.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Souris

[oliverwendell]

 

I saw people saying this gets addressed (her going for Hook and not Neal) with "brutal honestly" but I don't get what that means.

 

I don't know why this is an issue, other than for the sake of drama. Nobody knew it was possible to go to the Underworld and get somebody back from the dead when Neal died. I hope that's what Emma tells Neal, generously leaving him to assume she would have gone for him had she known she could. (And who knows? Maybe she would have.)

[ABitOFluff]

Didn't it sound like they left in "Firebird"? I find it very strange that they would give an episode a title with such religious overtones. Maybe it's a Shady-centric and she has secretly been killing off citizens of Storybrooke in her guise of a nun. No? I would find that way more interesting than a Robin-centric where he fake dies again.

I think they were filming 5X20 this week, so they're still in the Underworld. Various speculation seems to point to this being the last episode there, and the pics from the night filming indicate there are some kind of negotiations between the Nevengers and Hades.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Souris, what was your reaction as a CS shipper to the explanation why Emma didn't try to resurrect Neal? I saw people saying this gets addressed (her going for Hook and not Neal) with "brutal honestly" but I don't get what that means. Is that bad or good?

I don't understand why this even needs to be addressed. Emma didn't know about the Underworld until recently. Neal shouldn't even be on her mind at this point. I'm sure once she'd get to the Underworld, she'd realize Neal wasn't there anyway. Unless I'm missing something, it's moot.

 

Is there any speculation (or spoilers) that indicate what Black Tooth has to do with Regina? He's in 5x12, right?

Edited February 25, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[scenicbyway]

I loathed that scene, even more than the 1,000 Regina scenes. I found it brutal only to me as a viewer.

I take that to mean that she probably tells him she loves him again.  But of course can't save him....this time.  Whatevs

[RadioGirl27]

I loathed that scene, even more than the 1,000 Regina scenes. I found it brutal only to me as a viewer.

So the scene is going to be brutal only for the CS shippers who think that Emma is with Hook because she loves him and not because he was the only available option at that time. 

 

(Ugh, I really need to know what happens there to prepare myself)

Edited February 25, 2016 by RadioGirl27

[Serena]

I feel like some reviewers are straight up lying about that scene now. Claiming CS isn't "cheapened" when it looks like it is?

[YaddaYadda]

I feel like some reviewers are straight up lying about that scene now. Claiming CS isn't "cheapened" when it looks like it is?

 

I think everyone views scenes differently. Different people, different strokes, you know. 

 

Emma gets Neal in 5x12 and Hook gets Milah in 5x14. 

[Rumsy4]

I think there is no real consensus when it comes to Neal, even among CS shippers. I feel like some of them like Neal, some don't really care either way about how he is portrayed after he died, and some feel betrayed that he never got punched by Charming. So I'm guessing that scene may elicit different reactions from people.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Emma gets Neal in 5x12 and Hook gets Milah in 5x14.

We have to remember - the Underworld is about confronting your past. Neal was, whether we like it or not, a love interest in Emma's life at one point. Now he's dead, which means he's a prime candidate for an encounter. Even though he's not in Underbrooke, his appearance fits the topic well. It makes sense to me, but I agree with others that the scene will be interpreted differently by different people. I'll reserve my final judgement until I see it.

Edited February 25, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Selina K]

We have to remember - the Underworld is about confronting your past. Neal was, whether we like it or not, a love interest in Emma's life at one point. Now he's dead, which means he's a prime candidate for an encounter. Even though he's not in Underbrooke, his appearance fits the topic well. It makes sense to me, but I agree with others that the scene will be interpreted differently by different people. I'll reserve my final judgement until I see it.

 

I'm trying to reserve judgement because I don't really have strong Neal feelings other than that I didn't ship him with Emma.  But I may be in the table flipping camp if she says if she had known she would have saved him, too.  Saving Hook from literal death is a grand gesture of a TL romance, in my mind - Orpheus and Eurydice.  If it becomes an Oprah, and you get a save, and you get a save, and you get a save, what's the emotional resonance of the gesture?  Why wouldn't you just then save any average Joe on the street?

[RadioGirl27]

But the thing is that Emma and Neal doesn't have unresolved issues, everything was talked in the scenes in the woods before he dies. Neal has unresolved issues with his father and his son. But instead of going there, and have him confront his father or say goodbye to his son, the writers have chosen the romantic angle, that is the only one that doesn't make sense.
 

But I may be in the table flipping camp if she says if she had known she would have saved him, too.  Saving Hook from literal death is a grand gesture of a TL romance, in my mind - Orpheus and Eurydice.  If it becomes an Oprah, and you get a save, and you get a save, and you get a save, what's the emotional resonance of the gesture?  Why wouldn't you just then save any average Joe on the street?

And also this. Emma telling Neal that she would have done the same for him cheapens everything that happened in Birth and in Swan Song.

Edited February 25, 2016 by RadioGirl27

[Souris]

One word: IKEA

[YaddaYadda]

I've been wondering if Neal that appears to Emma is really Neal at all. From what I gather, he tries to stop her from going to the UW, and then Emma tells him exactly what she plans to do, which I don't know, sounds very off to me. And he appears only to her, not to Henry, or even Rumple. The whole thing just seems weird.

[scenicbyway]

I think there is no real consensus when it comes to Neal, even among CS shippers. I feel like some of them like Neal, some don't really care either way about how he is portrayed after he died, and some feel betrayed that he never got punched by Charming. So I'm guessing that scene may elicit different reactions from people.

Hasn't Emma and CS shippers suffered enough when the Charmings named their baby, Emma's brother after Neal?  Ugh.  Adam and Eddy also repeatedly said that Neal is dead and won't be coming back.  Now we know that really means he'll be back for the 100th just to remind us that Emma had a past.  If he was back to say goodbye to Henry, I'd be totally cool with it, but it sounds like it's just a Neal/Emma moment.

 

I do wish Charming had punched him and that they'd named the baby Leo instead.  I'm guessing the writers might wish they'd named the baby something else instead.

 

I find it bizarre that the point of the episode in the beginning is to "Save Hook" and they're in theory building on the momentum of the finale yet they won't be reunited with him and he's onscreen for less than 10 seconds.  ??

[KingOfHearts]

 

And also this. Emma telling Neal that she would have done the same for him cheapens everything that happened in Birth and in Swan Song.

This is part of the bigger issue, imo. If we can save Hook, why not other people in the Underworld? It's like Hook is a special case. We're going to see all these people in the Underworld, yet Hook (probably) will bet he only one who gets revived. I'm sure there's some magical reasoning to explain why they can only save Hook, but I can already see potential plot holes arising as we go along.

 

 

And he appears only to her, not to Henry, or even Rumple. The whole thing just seems weird.

It's because A&E are no doubt baiting shippers and throwing SwanFire fans a bone.

 

 

But the thing is that Emma and Neal doesn't have unresolved issues, everything was talked in the scenes in the woods before he dies.

I would disagree that there aren't still lingering issues, but I know they'll never be addressed.

Edited February 25, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[RadioGirl27]

I find it bizarre that the point of the episode in the beginning is to "Save Hook" and they're in theory building on the momentum of the finale yet they won't be reunited with him and he's onscreen for less than 10 seconds.  ??

Hook is just a plot device and "save Hook" is only for the promos, not the actual story of the season. They needed to kill someone as an excuse to go to the UW, and they choosed him like they could have chosen Grumpy or Happy.

 

I would disagree that there aren't still lingering issues, but I know they'll never be addressed.

Well, yes, but that Neal had unprotected sex with Emma when she was sixteen and then he sent her to prison for his crimes is never going to be addressed.

Edited February 25, 2016 by RadioGirl27

[Rumsy4]

But I may be in the table flipping camp if she says if she had known she would have saved him, too.  Saving Hook from literal death is a grand gesture of a TL romance, in my mind - Orpheus and Eurydice.  If it becomes an Oprah, and you get a save, and you get a save, and you get a save, what's the emotional resonance of the gesture?  Why wouldn't you just then save any average Joe on the street?

 

We know Snow and Charming are epic True Love because they literally would do anything for each other. We can't see Snow sharing her heart with James, or Charming going to the UW to save Abigail. In Emma's case, it seems like she just fell in love with the last man standing. But then, Emma took on the Darkness to save Regina (and everyone). So maybe she would have gone the UW to save any average Joe. With Hook, we know his love for Emma is above anything he has experienced before, without lessening Milah's significance. With Emma, the writers seem bent on equating Hook with all of Emma's former lovers. If that is what happens in 5.13, especially at the beginning of a #savehook arc, it might make CS seem a lukewarm romance than epic. 

 

I've been wondering if Neal that appears to Emma is really Neal at all. From what I gather, he tries to stop her from going to the UW, and then Emma tells him exactly what she plans to do, which I don't know, sounds very off to me. And he appears only to her, not to Henry, or even Rumple. The whole thing just seems weird.

 

It's most likely really Neal. Remember Merlin's warning to wee!Emma, and how important it turned out? The writers don't care about Bagel enough to give him a scene with Henry or Rumple. 

[sharky]

I find it bizarre that the point of the episode in the beginning is to "Save Hook" and they're in theory building on the momentum of the finale yet they won't be reunited with him and he's onscreen for less than 10 seconds.  ??

Well, we did go through a whole #DarkSwan hiatus only to find out it wasn't about Dark Swan. I do wonder if there's more insight to this -- does anyone know if this episode was filmed while Colin was shooting his movie? Because his "cameo" could have been edited in during post production with camera angles and such.

[YaddaYadda]

Well, we did go through a whole #DarkSwan hiatus only to find out it wasn't about Dark Swan. I do wonder if there's more insight to this -- does anyone know if this episode was filmed while Colin was shooting his movie? Because his "cameo" could have been edited in during post production with camera angles and such.

 

No, he was in NYC right after the Holidays, and they were starting to film 5x16. He missed the whole 1st week of that, and Jen wasn't in Vancouver either that week.

[Souris]

From set photos, it looks like Hades holds up the paper (contract?) and Regina snatches it. Then it ends up with Emma later. Hades seems to be talking mostly to Hook & Emma in a lot of the pics. Then later it's mostly Emma & Regina.

[mjgchick]

I'm assuming the only reason why Emma thinks she can save Hook is because she thinks he is her true love? I mean her parents share a freaking heart because their love is THAT strong. Maybe Emma thinks the same of her and Killian. Her saying if she could save Neal might end up sounding like her hero complex coming in. In fact I bet that's how I'll end up feeling during that scene. Emma takes the world on her shoulders. I bet if they could get Christian Grey she'd probably say the same thing to him as well. I mean did we not just seen her risk her life for everyone in the season 4 finale? The difference between Emma and her parents is that she doesn't just think about her happiness.

Edited February 26, 2016 by mjgchick

[KingOfHearts]

 

The writers don't care about Bagel enough to give him a scene with Henry or Rumple.

Who holds the Bagel mantle? Neal or Robin?

 

 

I'm assuming the only reason why Emma thinks she can save Hook is because she thinks he is her true love?

The whole heart-splitting thing isn't going to happen. I'm calling it now.  Emma had to have some sort of plan in order for the Underworld rescue to sound remotely feasible.  Operation Firebird will probably take care of Hook.

Edited February 26, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

The whole heart-splitting thing isn't going to happen. I'm calling it now.

 

I don't think it's happening either. I think the heart splitting was just used to illustrate where Emma's feelings are, and her equating what she has with Hook to what her parents have is a pretty big deal, especially to someone like Emma.

[oliverwendell]

 

The whole heart-splitting thing isn't going to happen. I'm calling it now.  Emma had to have some sort of plan in order for the Underworld rescue to sound remotely feasible.  Operation Firebird will probably take care of Hook.

I agree. Not happening. They'll find some loophole shenanigan that will get him out some other way. But I'd like for Hook to know she was willing to do it. :)

[Rumsy4]

I'm leaning towards the idea that Emma and Killian will share a heart, but that alone won't be enough to bring him back. 

 

Who holds the Bagel mantle? Neal or Robin?

 

Neal. The origins of this nickname are lost in the depth of meme. :-p

 

 

Her saying if she could save Neal might end up sounding like her hero complex coming in... 

 

I agree that Emma always feels like she has to save everyone, so that was probably it. Let's see how the scene plays out. 

[ABitOFluff]

I agree that Emma always feels like she has to save everyone, so that was probably it. Let's see how the scene plays out. 

I think that's exactly it. It would be out of character for her to say, "I totally would have saved you if you were my one true love, but you weren't sooo..."

 

If Emma could save someone, she would. That's our Emma.

Edited February 26, 2016 by ABitOFluff

[sharky]

I think there was a play on Baelfire/Bagelfire or a typo or something and it stuck.

 

As for the new photos from set, I noticed there are several people missing including Mary Margaret, Gold and Belle. I wonder if there's some issue with them already being gone from the Underworld like perhaps they were able to get out already or something. Also, I think we discussed the blind item from several months ago about a TV scrambling to adjust its story lines due to a baby boom. Maybe the adjustment is that not everyone has to go back together -- then you can get the pregnant people out of the way while still maintaining your story line.

Edited February 26, 2016 by sharky

[mjgchick]

 

I'm leaning towards the idea that Emma and Killian will share a heart, but that alone won't be enough to bring him back.

I think so as well. Maybe that's where the true loves kiss comes in.