Spoiler Discussion: The apple was poisoned?!

[Curio]

I know the Storybrooke citizens have thrown lots of parties at Granny's before, but has there ever been a party specifically thanking Emma for being the Savior? If that hasn't happened, and if this ball is specifically a celebration to welcome the return of the Savior to Camelot, Dark One Emma is going to be pissed. (And with good reason.)

[YaddaYadda]

I know the Storybrooke citizens have thrown lots of parties at Granny's before, but has there ever been a party specifically thanking Emma for being the Savior? If that hasn't happened, and if this ball is specifically a celebration to welcome the return of the Savior to Camelot, Dark One Emma is going to be pissed. (And with good reason.)

It goes to show how Emma has been taken for granted, that the things she does are expected of her.

 

I'd be pissed too and I'd refuse to help too. Emma has every right to give everyone the finger. 

 

I wish Emma didn't love Henry so much. He moves from believing that one mom is the Savior to the other one being able to be the Savior when the first one is out of commission. 

 

*Serenity now*

[Serena]

So if the Marine Garage is after the jump, I'm guessing whatever he does, works?

Or, the *real* baddie of the season sees them holding hands, and makes Hook jump to piss off DS?

[Scovies]

I'm really hoping they don't have Hook jumping just to force Emma to save him -- of course the writers would do something like that to the healthiest relationship on the show -- but apparently Emma and Hook are walking hand-in-hand afterwards? What on earth is going on here?

 

Video of them walking off, and then Colin and Jen being goofy. Heh.

[kili]

Okay, why couldn't they have made it the first ball Regina actually wanted to attend instead of her "First Ball"?

 

I can buy that Regina may have not wanted to attend the balls her mother made her go to. I can understand her not enjoying the balls when she was married to Leopold. I can even see her realizing in retrospect that terrorizing people at balls after Leopold died was actually a pretty unfulfilling exercise.

 

So, this could be the first ball she wanted to attend and the first ball she attends where the person she loves can attend too. Her first official dance with somebody she wants to dance with. That would be fine.

 

But no, they can't have that. They have to make it supercalifragilisticexpialidicious - it must be specialer than anything else ever could be - so they invent the ridiculous idea that Regina has never been to a ball before.

 

And then they have Charming teach Regina how to dance - something he hasn't even done for his own daughter because of Regina.

 

I don't know if this will contribute in Emma becoming the Dark Swan, but it's certainly feeding my inner rage monster.

[HoodlumSheep]

I don't know what to think. It seems strange that CS would be walking and holding hands so casually after Killy jumps. So maybe that means that the scene leans more towards the "someone pushes him (or something like that)" category. Unless they are filming out of order.I'll just have to pray to the tv/abc gods that the jumping scene doesn't turn out to be emotionally manipulative.

Edited October 2, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[YaddaYadda]

Okay, why couldn't they have made it the first ball Regina actually wanted to attend instead of her "First Ball"?

 

It sort of makes Regina look a tad pathetic since I think the ball is for the Savior which she ain't.

[mjgchick]

Colin and Jen are life ruiners

[Mari]

And then they have Charming teach Regina how to dance - something he hasn't even done for his own daughter because of Regina.

I don't know if this will contribute in Emma becoming the Dark Swan, but it's certainly feeding my inner rage monster.

Yup.

For one thing, why would David, the poor shepherd with the drunken father, know how to do the dances the royalty do, but the person who was raised to be queen, and had to have been to numerous balls, no matter what these delusional writers and actor think, did not? What? And what?

Plus, we've had little to no family scenes with Emma and the Charmings, but now we get scenes where they coach and tutor and faux parent Regina through her "first ball?" What?

That fire breathing gif from a few posts back? That's me.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Mari

[kili]

It sort of makes Regina look a tad pathetic since I think the ball is for the Savior which she ain't.

 

Regina spent 50 years seeking revenge against a 10 year old who told a secret. I think the "Tad Pathetic" ship sailed many years ago.

 

I hope A&E get asked about this ridiculous situation - I'm sure their explanations will be amusing.  Cora was actually a hermit who could never bring herself to attend a ball after that horrible Eva tripped her. Leopold never held balls because Evil Eva had made him self-concious about being bald and his two-left feet (the psychological damage she inflicted out-lived her). Regina was only at Prince Jame's engagement ball for 3 minutes and all dancing stopped while she was raging about arresting people (those party-goers were so rude! Didn't they realize that they were ruining the first ball for Regina - a poor miss who had forever been denied one - and you'll note who caused her to have to arrest people instead of dancing - those evil Whites Snow and Emma). Ta-da! Poor Regina really does get the worst of it and you can blame it all on Snow and her Mom.

Edited October 2, 2015 by kili

[october]

So, this could be the first ball she wanted to attend and the first ball she attends where the person she loves can attend too. Her first official dance with somebody she wants to dance with. That would be fine.

 

But no, they can't have that. They have to make it supercalifragilisticexpialidicious - it must be specialer than anything else ever could be - so they invent the ridiculous idea that Regina has never been to a ball before.

 

Wow. I've joked about how the writers won't rest until they've transplanted as much as they can from Emma's story onto Regina's, but this is amazing. And as people have pointed out it doesn't even make sense. That it's her first ball with Robin is meaningful enough. Hell, why not have her teach Robin to dance?

 

This show makes me so uncomfortable.

[mjgchick]

Seriously it should've been Regina teaching Robin how to dance. It could be been a cute scene between the couple.

Let's guess what else Regina's character will have that the show has done with either Emma or Snow already.

[Curio]

Seriously it should've been Regina teaching Robin how to dance. It could be been a cute scene between the couple.

 

Right? I bet they'll spend the majority of the episode on Regina freaking out over her first ball—choosing what to wear, how to dance, how to behave—and then completely ignore the fact that Robin is probably even more out of his depth. But Robin is a cardboard prop for Regina so he doesn't need any character development.

 

Let's guess what else Regina's character will have that the show has done with either Emma or Snow already.

 

Let's take this to another thread...

Edited October 2, 2015 by Curio

[RadioGirl27]

 

And for all those pirate lovers who are dying to discover more about Killian's mysterious past, we have some amazing news for you: "We are going to see that, most likely, in the second half of the season," Kitsis revealed. "We're going to see more of Hook's life." (Now would be a great time to get out your inhaler and just remember to breathe, Oncers.)

"With this season, we do plan to see more of Hook's life and his backstory," Horowitz added.

Let me translate this before you all get too excited: "We would maybe give Hook a flashback in the second half of the season if we don't get distracted by our new toys, or by Regina's needs".

[HoodlumSheep]

*violently screeches* If you go back on your A&E...

Bless Leanne for that article!

I watched the video of Colin's stunt double jumping (or at least one of the takes?). It's kind of confusing. If Hook had lost balance, then he would have probably waved his arms a bit more. His arms stay rather static. But then, why the heck would he fall/jump head first. That seems unnatural.

Still confusing.

[Shanna Marie]

Let me translate this before you all get too excited: "We would maybe give Hook a flashback in the second half of the season if we don't get distracted by our new toys, or by Regina's needs".

They did say "most likely" and "plan to." Which might be a step up from "we hope to see that" or "we'd be disappointed if we didn't see that." At least they sound almost like they're taking responsibility for what happens in their own show and admitting that they're they ones who make the plans rather than sounding like the show just sort of magically happens, with them having no control over it.

 

And the phrase "focus on our core characters and their relationships" didn't come up.

[Curio]

And for all those pirate lovers who are dying to discover more about Killian's mysterious past, we have some amazing news for you: "We are going to see that, most likely, in the second half of the season," Kitsis revealed. "We're going to see more of Hook's life."

 

Now to interpret whether this falls under "We're Really Excited to Explore Will A Lot More in 4B" territory or not...

Edited October 2, 2015 by Curio

[HoodlumSheep]

I don't think they can push off Hook's storyline as easily as Will's though. Hook is a pretty popular character. It's one thing to push off minor characters' storylines or even Emma's house (because at the end of the day it's more of a material object than a story line). Basically, A&E have dug their own graves even if they say "most likely".

So if we do get Hook back story, then we'll have that and Lily's backstory to deal with in 5b. Huh.

[YaddaYadda]

I watched the video of Colin's stunt double jumping (or at least one of the takes?). It's kind of confusing. If Hook had lost balance, then he would have probably waved his arms a bit more. His arms stay rather static. But then, why the heck would he fall/jump head first. That seems unnatural.

 

She dared him to do it, he thought about it a bit, then went for it, because he still trusts her and that's the most important thing to her right now? Because if he trusts her, it means she can trust him?

 

I don't know...the whole thing is a bit weird, especially if they're having a deep conversation afterwards and leave the place holding hands. What is that, a breakthrough? 

 

Also, the sneak peek...Excalibur is missing? I'm assuming Emma has it stashed somewhere. Maybe that's what they go searching for in 5x05 after she and Henry leave her place.

 

Arthur and Guinevere do not seem like a couple that has ever had a problem. They seem happy to see each other and Emma seems to have put the mind wipe on everything.

 

Also...Regina, how does it feel to have someone tell you you can't do it? That's how Emma felt back in 4x03 with that snide comment about the Savior needs saving. Sucks when the tables turn like that.

Edited October 2, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[HoodlumSheep]

That cgi. Also, don't care about your problems, Regina. So the Camelot crew is being stuck with the Merry Men? Or at least, they're stuck sleeping in tents. I expect bonfires and singing.

Also, Arthur and Guinevere seem to be getting along in that sneak peek.

*I wrote something, but then realized I have to remember that they have memory loss after they enter the castle. Because otherwise, I was going to question how Arthur was surprised about David knowing about Excalibur. It's hard to believe they wouldn't discuss or mention it. Like I said, nevermind.

[ABitOFluff]

So, Robin is now the show's new damsel in distress.

[Curio]

Doesn't Storybrooke have any other places these people can stay? Why can't the Camelot guests shack up with the current citizens in their cozy houses temporarily? Why force them to live in tents? That's kind of barbaric.

 

Oh, and let me play a sad song on the world's smallest violin for you, Regina. Seriously...self awareness. Get some. Whatever Emma told you in this episode is right up there with the shit you gave her during 4A and especially "Breaking Glass." So shut up and woman up.

[HoodlumSheep]

^ I think that might be considered an upgrade for him.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Arthur and Guinevere do not seem like a couple that has ever had a problem. They seem happy to see each other and Emma seems to have put the mind wipe on everything.

Guinevere reminds me of Marian. Same color design, similar looks. Wouldn't it be weird if she was Marian's identical twin played by Christie Lang? Oh well.

 

That sneak peek makes me want to gag. Is this what Outlaw Queen is always going to be? Regina feeling sorry for herself and Robin looking constipated for her? If you want to be a leader Regina, then stop trying to get people to feel sorry for you and get your butt in gear. I'm not too thrilled about CGI Monster #2481516 either.

Edited October 2, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

That sneak peek makes me want to gag. Is this what Outlaw Queen is always going to be? Regina feeling sorry for herself and Robin looking constipated for her?

 

This is how they've been ever since they came back from the Missing Year. I don't know what else you were expecting.

[HoodlumSheep]

I wonder if the snowglobe object Killy's hanging onto in some of the spoiler pics is the new magical "plot contrivance" object of the season.

*also, lol at Colin wanting to do the stunt himself. Of course he would.

Edited October 2, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[RadioGirl27]

From oner of the set stalkers:
 

@CaptainSwaann He is getting Emma to appear by jumping (she saves him before he lands)

As I have said before, I hate this and the terrible message it sends.

 

And LOL at the snowglobe.

[Curio]

Are we going to get some Citizen Kane parallels with that snow globe? Who or what is Emma's Rosebud? (Maybe that's why there've been so many rose sightings this season...)

Edited October 2, 2015 by Curio

[HoodlumSheep]

I'm still confused as to why he'd need to jump in the first place. Calling her name however many times should have been enough, yet he jumps. ??? There has to be some reason. We're still missing the context of what is happening.

They appear to have a talk and stuff, but from the pics Emma doesn't seem too upset or phased?

This is a scene where I'm going to have to wait and actually see it unfold before I properly judge it, I guess.

* I think I'd be able to live with the scene if it ends up paralleling Emma jumping into the ocean more so than other scenarios.

Edited October 2, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[YaddaYadda]

This whole he tries to commit suicide? I don't think it's remotely in the ball park.

 

I think he finds out something in Gold's shop that he needs her to know about. She probably cut herself off from everyone, so he resorts to drastic measures to get her to come to him.

 

Is it stupid? Yeah! But that's Hook's m.o when he is emotionally compromised. Hook does stupid things. See cursed lips, cursed hand, and now this. This isn't remotely shocking or unexpected from him.

 

Let's wait and see.

Edited October 2, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[Serena]

Yeah, it's not suicide, because she can save him with a flick of the wrist, so she'll never be seriously concerned he may die. It's more like a toddler falling on the floor and yelling to get mom's attention.

[HoodlumSheep]

^ that's maybe what I was thinking. Maybe she cut them off, maybe she's off doing evil stuff and by Killian doing something drastic maybe he's luring her away in a certain sense (maybe he ends up saving the baby hobbit from being turned into stone), maybe she's gone extra evil where that's a last ditch effort to get her attention or knock some sense into her?

But yeah, Hook is rash, but couldn't he (or I guess the writers) have found something equally as drastic that would trigger less people?

Edited October 2, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[KAOS Agent]

Are we entirely sure that Emma cast the memory curse? I still think that there might be something else at work here like Merlin cast it because of prophesy reasons and Emma countered the memory wipe on her own because it suited her purposes.

 

I'm considering not watching the rest of the season at this point. This show has some real problems and if they take an episode and want it to be Regina experiencing a bunch of unbelievable firsts while Emma's family rally around her and make it all cute and fun while Emma is suffering torment and struggling to maintain control, I don't know that I'll continue. It's not even that it's Regina at this point. The messaging on this show is that doing good will result in endless punishment and doing bad will get you everything you want and everyone will fete you when you expend minor effort to turn yourself around. That's not hopeful. That's just depressing.

[Rumsy4]

I'm so glad Robin gets to be the Damsel in Distress this time instead of Hook!

 

Jen and Colin are so freaking cute with that hand-swinging and skipping. 

 

Regina's whining took a break for one episode. Woegina's back... 

 

Hook always gets a centric per season. I hope this will be more Good Form than the Ursula episode (can't even remember its name now!).

[YaddaYadda]

Are we entirely sure that Emma cast the memory curse? I still think that there might be something else at work here like Merlin cast it because of prophesy reasons and Emma countered the memory wipe on her own because it suited her purposes.

 

I think Merlin is as shady as they come. He fails with Nimue or screws her over somehow...because prophecy. Enter Emma. What in the world has he been doing with Emma exactly? Waiting for one of his prophecies to happen? I will not be surprised at all if 5x08 is Merlin's swan song at Emma's hand.

[BoPeeps]

The.Jolly.Roger.

 

Yessssss.

[Dianthus]

As for Regina and dancing...I say bring on the red-hot iron shoes! In one version of Snow White the prince condemns the Evil Queen to "dancing" in the above mentioned footwear, IIRC.

 

The depth of my loathing re: the idea that Hook jumps on purpose is like a bottomless pit. He's supposed to be fighting for her, dammit. There's bugger all he can do for Emma if he's dead. Bring on the crappy CGI whatever, too.

[Serena]

So the script tease seems to confirm that Regina DID use the dagger on Emma.

[october]

Also...Regina, how does it feel to have someone tell you you can't do it? That's how Emma felt back in 4x03 with that snide comment about the Savior needs saving. Sucks when the tables turn like that.

 

Exactly. Regina has, repeatedly, insulted and demeaned other people and their abilities. From her treatment of Emma (especially during 4x05) to making cracks about Hook's disability to those disgusting things she said to young Pinocchio (all of which she did without being possessed by darkness). So I'm entirely unmoved by her existential crisis.

 

Also, Regina is still mayor (isn't she?) So technically she's in a leadership role already even without this 'saviour' business. Or is the town mayor just a figurehead now, while the towns people expects the saviour to do the actual work in keeping the town safe and secure? If so, Emma's role and life is starting to look even more unfair. This is one of the few shows where I'm rooting for the hero to just pack up and leave town for good.

[Serena]

Well, it's not like she was elected, and we haven't really seen her do any "mayoring" except sit in her office and whine about how her life is unfair, so she might as well be a figurehead?

[YaddaYadda]

Ok, a quick thought.

 

Yesterday, we were discussing whether Arthur or someone from his group unleashes the furies on the ball in order to smoke out the real Savior, but what if Emma is the one that does that? I think Emma might be pissed enough to do that, especially since part of her seems to still identify herself with being the Savior.

 

I can see her wanting to teach Regina a lesson for trying to usurp her title and for the dagger control and what better way to do it than during a ball that Regina is starring in.

[Dianthus]

YaddaYadda, on 03 Oct 2015 - 05:09 AM, said:YaddaYadda, on 03 Oct 2015 - 05:09 AM, said:

Ok, a quick thought.

 

Yesterday, we were discussing whether Arthur or someone from his group unleashes the furies on the ball in order to smoke out the real Savior, but what if Emma is the one that does that? I think Emma might be pissed enough to do that, especially since part of her seems to still identify herself with being the Savior.

 

I can see her wanting to teach Regina a lesson for trying to usurp her title and for the dagger control and what better way to do it than during a ball that Regina is starring in.

ITA. Hell, I'm awfully close to "Hulk Smash!" myself at this point, what with f*cking Regina getting all the shiny. She might not even being doing it on purpose.

Edited October 3, 2015 by Dianthus

[KingOfHearts]

Not sure if this was already mentioned, but Hook jumping off the library sounds just like 3x01 when Emma jumped off the ship into a sea of deadly mermaids to get the Nevengers' attention.

I'm actually intrigued by 5x02. For once we're seeing Regina as the Savior in a negative light, and despite the Mary Sue syndrome, someone close is *gasp* unhappy with Regina for an understandable reason. Now, what A&E plan to do with that remains to be seen.

[Serena]

Ok, a quick thought.

 

Yesterday, we were discussing whether Arthur or someone from his group unleashes the furies on the ball in order to smoke out the real Savior, but what if Emma is the one that does that? I think Emma might be pissed enough to do that, especially since part of her seems to still identify herself with being the Savior.

 

I can see her wanting to teach Regina a lesson for trying to usurp her title and for the dagger control and what better way to do it than during a ball that Regina is starring in.

I don't think Emma would do it in Camelot, but it's possible she does it in Storybrooke. On the other hand, Jen said that DS is not the one causing trouble, she just refuses to help.

[YaddaYadda]

I don't think Emma would do it in Camelot, but it's possible she does it in Storybrooke. On the other hand, Jen said that DS is not the one causing trouble, she just refuses to help.

 

Okay, then Merlin does it from his tree because he's a jerk that way?

 

#blameMerlin

[Mari]

I'm actually intrigued by 5x02. For once we're seeing Regina as the Savior in a negative light, and despite the Mary Sue syndrome, someone close is *gasp* unhappy with Regina for an understandable reason. Now, what A&E plan to do with that remains to be seen.

Based on the show's history?  Blame the other person.

 

I have trouble imagining them actually, truly, blaming Regina for something, even if they are worried about Regina Syndrome Backlash.  If it happens, I'll cheerfully, blissfully admit I was wrong.

[Shanna Marie]

For once we're seeing Regina as the Savior in a negative light, and despite the Mary Sue syndrome, someone close is *gasp* unhappy with Regina for an understandable reason. Now, what A&E plan to do with that remains to be seen.

If we're going by history, being unhappy with Regina for an understandable reason will be shown to be a sign of great darkness. Regina will be a martyr, and the other person will end up groveling in apology after overcoming the darkness.

[Rumsy4]

What if Nimue is the real villain of 5A? Just throwing this out there. I know a lot of us think she was the Original Dark One. What if she's still "alive" in some form a la Rumple? Maybe she's also trapped somewhere like Merlin.

Merlin seems MIA in Storybrooke. I hypothesized a while back that Emma offing him is when she truly gives in to the Darkness. But what if Nimue was behind this?

The Nevengers could have inadvertently brought her back/set her free thinking she could help defeat the Darkness, despite Emma's misgivings. Only, Nimue has no intention of helping anyone. She wants to take revenge on Merlin, and manipulates Emma into killing him/doing some other Dark act. She could be the one setting the Furies on the Nevengers in Camelot/Storybrooke. And she is the one who poses an unknown threat in Storybrooke. Dark Swan being the main villain of 5A makes no sense to me.

[Serena]

Yeah, Dark Swan seems to be the Elsa to Merlin/Nimue's Snow Queen. Or maybe it would be better to say, she's the Snow Queen to Merlin/Nimue's Rumple. The one presented as the villain, but there's another one lurking in the shadow. 5A will end with everyone discovering who's behind the various machinations (I actually don't really think it's Merlin. He's shady, but not that shady. Nimue seems more likey - they do like to have female villains) and Dark Swan will join the fight against him/her.

[YaddaYadda]

Just throwing this out there. I know a lot of us think she was the Original Dark One. What if she's still "alive" in some form a la Rumple?

 

I've been thinking that Nimue is alive and is very much the Lady of the Lake. If there is a baby being born in 5x08, I think it's hers (and not Merlin's). I think they chose to go with Nimue instead of Morgan Le Fay for a reason. I think the reason they didn't/won't go with Morgan is because of the ick factor. And since this show enjoys their "twists"...

 

Nimue could have been in control for a very long time, centuries before she lost her shit and something pushed her over the edge. I could be completely wrong which is very, and I mean very frequent, but if that kid they cast is hers, I'm willing to bet that it was taken from her because (wait for it!) prophecy! She embraces her darkness completely, she and Merlin do battle.

 

Only, Nimue has no intention of helping anyone. She wants to take revenge on Merlin, and manipulates Emma into killing him/doing some other Dark act. She could be the one setting the Furies on the Nevengers in Camelot/Storybrooke.

 

Maybe she is. If he did something horrible to her for the sake of the stories he's been writing through his prophecies, it makes him no different than the Author imo. People may or may not have destinies that have to be fulfilled, but Merlin seems to be messing around with free will by writing down the future or what the end result of something might be. 

 

No one who isn't Arthur can have Excalibur, unless your name is Emma apparently. And Arthur has been sitting around waiting for the Savior to show up to free Merlin from his "prison". These people take his visions seriously. I still think that Emma gets fucked over because of one of his prophecies. And it's not just that, Excalibur was protected by magic, so how many people with the same thoughts as Kay were incinerated for trying to pull that sword out? And Emma was born with magic which he knew before she was even conceived, and he basically sent Ingrid to her when he granted her passage to the LwM, before Emma was ever set to arrive there.

 

These people who star in his prophecies, how much of their lives have been theirs? 

 

Merlin may have been missing, and he may have been trapped in his tree, but dude has been keeping busy.

 

Also, the clip that was posted yesterday. That fury that snatches up Robin has some serious boobage of evil going on. It has to be a dude doing that CGI because, hello! Those are some serious melons.