Aaron Hotchner: High and Tight

[smoker]

and the soapy soap continues :(

http://www.tmz.com/2016/08/18/thomas-gibson-criminal-minds-writer-past-fired-before/

[autumnmountains]

7 hours ago, zannej said:

It sounds like this *was* a second chance. Or that maybe he had more than one second chance. He only had 8 hours of anger management before and I doubt it accomplished much of anything.

You talk about his family and such, but what about the other workers and their families? What if this was seen as an escalation of problematic behavior and they were concerned that the next step could be even more violence?

Just forget that this is TG we're talking about. Imagine this was any other workplace and a co-worker was getting increasingly erratic? What seems to be described is classic behavior of someone prior to going postal and killing people. I'm not saying it was going to escalate to that, but the higher ups couldn't be sure of that. They could not legally allow their employees to be exposed to danger and if someone was assaulting people. They have to protect those people. Failure to do so leaves them liable for future altercations, and they could have one hell of a lawsuit on their hands.

We don't even know if Thomas ever apologized, although I hope that he did. But, apologies don't undo what was done. A person can be sorry that they did something but still have to deal with the consequences. It doesn't matter if a verbal argument is heated or not, it does not justify physical violence.

I don't know if "celebrated" is the word. I had not heard about any of that. Sounds gross, but it does not equate physical violence. They can choose to not open packages from him.

I still respect TG's acting and as a human being. I recognize that he's not perfect. Same with Virgil. I don't wish either of them ill. At first I thought that maybe Virgil had instigated, but the more I hear I realize that it is likely that TG was either just having a bad day or just a bad moment and snapped. It can happen, but unfortunately, the employers have to cover their asses to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Exactly. And it's  not all about litigation - a huge part of it is about safety  ( as you rightly mentioned), someone who kicks someone or does anything physical to someone  else  could very well escalate.

There's also the matter that whether it would escalate  or not, even a single, simple kick could severely hurt someone. I'm not saying that  in this case it did, but that it could. I know I put up with a lot of crap  at work but someone hit or kick me? They'd be walking out with shiny "bracelets" on their wrists. And me? I would be making a visit to the hospital/ patient first  center for x-rays   ( not because i'm quick to sue or make mountains out of any hills, I have a bone disease and someone doing that to me could immediately break my bones or cause stress on them where they would break later.). And I know that VW probably doesn't have a bone disease or anything, but as employer,  it's your duty to protect  every employee.

Thomas is lucky to not have had the police come.

Edited August 18, 2016 by autumnmountains

[Danielg342]

35 minutes ago, smoker said:

and the soapy soap continues :(

http://www.tmz.com/2016/08/18/thomas-gibson-criminal-minds-writer-past-fired-before/

Sounds like Gibson is grasping at straws. Virgil may also have a temper but he still hasn't hit anyone.

[Old Dog]

It seems to me that a lot of people on here and other internet sites as well as the press and media, especially the gutter press, are quite happy to paint things as black as possible on the barest of information. The fact is that none of us really know what happened or the full circumstances, and those witnesses who do know have been quickly told to keep quiet. Suddenly after years of being told what a family the CM set is, what a pro TG is to work with, watching those hilarious gag reels on the dvds etc etc - now I see everyone painting TG as a drunk, angry man with mental issues! There are a lot of inconsistencies in this and I for one would welcome it going to court in hope that the true picture comes out. Of course nothing excuses physical violence but there have been reports that were swiftly silenced suggesting it was more self defence. I'll hold judgment until more information comes out and gosh, I hope I never have to appear in court with some of the people commenting on the jury against me as I've seen the mad rush to heap condemnation without full disclosure, the twisting of the flimsiest of information to paint the worst possible picture. At the moment too much of it is mere speculation and there are more questions than answers.

[FormerMod-a1]

4 minutes ago, Old Dog said:

... now I see everyone painting TG as a drunk, angry man with mental issues! ...

I have not seen this at all, at least not here.  Saying someone deserved to be fired is not the same as saying he's a "drunk, angry man with mental issues".

[Old Dog]

Maybe I've read too much on the internet but it seems the one DUI incident 3 years ago means he has a drink problem, the one shoving incident 6 years ago where he was angry about safety issues on set and the 8 hours of anger management courses he had to attend means he has an unstable personality with anger issues - my point is that people are taking these incidents and extrapolating the worst possible scenarios from them. I just want to know the truth as so far most of it is conjecture. The way Shemar's video has been interpreted (or possibly misinterpreted) across the media is an example of this.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Old Dog

[Mysteyman]

1 hour ago, aquarian1 said:

I have not seen this at all, at least not here.  Saying someone deserved to be fired is not the same as saying he's a "drunk, angry man with mental issues".

Exactly.

[Mysteyman]

I wonder what the reaction would have been if the writer TG kicked were FEMALE?

[Old Dog]

Male or female it shouldn't make any difference. My point is that no-one here or in the press actually knows the circumstances so it is impossible to say whether he "deserved to be fired" or not.  That's why a lawsuit might be a good thing so the real facts come out and not just those extrapolated from the barest of details and a lot of speculation.

[Mysteyman]

If there is a lawsuit, I hope that everything is documented and made part of the public record not only what Virgil  said and did but any conflicts TG might have had with his colleagues.

[tobeyoungagain]

LOL!  Truth!

On ‎8‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 10:34 PM, Mysteyman said:

Perfectly said.

[smoker]

It had to be an accident. Who is gonna kick someone in the shin? If you are going to be involved in a fight and you know you are going to be fired, you don't shyly kick someone in the shin, you use the flying kick to the head hahahaha, sorry, but I have to laugh

Edited August 18, 2016 by smoker

[thewhiteowl]

IDK, people don't get fired for shy, accidental skin kicks. We do know TG was fired. 

[AstaCharles]

6 hours ago, smoker said:

It had to be an accident. Who is gonna kick someone in the shin? 

I don't know,  I can picture a scenario:  "shut up,  get out of here and let me do my damn job" and a kick to show you are pissed...or something along those lines.

ETA:  and I  just found out he was directing, so yeah, I can totally see a scenario like that

Edited August 18, 2016 by AstaCharles

[autumnmountains]

3 hours ago, aquarian1 said:

I have not seen this at all, at least not here.  Saying someone deserved to be fired is not the same as saying he's a "drunk, angry man with mental issues".

Exactly. Actually, and definitely not accusing anyone or anything, but where I first saw the "mental issues" was in a post elsewhere defending him, not that it matters. The fact is, he kicked someone. He got fired for doing so.

[LisainCali]

22 hours ago, millennium said:

While elsewhere Jared Leto is celebrated for sending anal beads and used condoms to his co-workers.

I don't think that's true.  Jared Leto is seen as a very talented, but troubled actor.  Not celebrated for his crap.  I think if he wasn't such a d-bag, he would have had a much greater career.  At least so far...Redemption is great. 

Thomas Gibson was in a powerful position on CM.  Probably the MOST powerful position.  If he had been a decent guy, I just don't think that Virgil would have had the power to get him fired.  Sorry!  Pay the money, have Virgil move to another show.  

[Danielg342]

13 hours ago, Old Dog said:

Maybe I've read too much on the internet but it seems the one DUI incident 3 years ago means he has a drink problem, the one shoving incident 6 years ago where he was angry about safety issues on set and the 8 hours of anger management courses he had to attend means he has an unstable personality with anger issues - my point is that people are taking these incidents and extrapolating the worst possible scenarios from them. I just want to know the truth as so far most of it is conjecture. The way Shemar's video has been interpreted (or possibly misinterpreted) across the media is an example of this.

We can only speculate on what we're given, true, and there's probably lots we don't know. However, here's what I will say- these things, they don't happen in a vacuum. Something spurs them on, because we all rationalise what we do even if others don't agree with what we've done. So, I know in my case when I say "Gibson has issues" it's really just to attempt to explain why he did what he did. I certainly don't mean to denigrate him as a human being (while still not offering apologies for what he did).

[millennium]

30 minutes ago, LisainCali said:

 

Thomas Gibson was in a powerful position on CM.  Probably the MOST powerful position.  If he had been a decent guy, I just don't think that Virgil would have had the power to get him fired.  Sorry!  Pay the money, have Virgil move to another show.  

I don't know if there has been any discussion about this, but is it possible Gibson was fired as a cost-cutting measure, with the kicking incident serving as the excuse needed to break his contract?

[Willowy]

34 minutes ago, LisainCali said:

Thomas Gibson was in a powerful position on CM.  Probably the MOST powerful position.  If he had been a decent guy, I just don't think that Virgil would have had the power to get him fired. 

Agree, but I don't think Virgil did 'have the power' to get him fired. I think there were eyewitnesses, a report to HR, an investigation, and the studio had no choice but to fire Thomas. It was Thomas's behavior that got him fired, not a Virgil vendetta. 

[ForeverAlone]

If the network wanted to cut costs by firing actors, it would simply be easier to not pick up their contract options over the summer hiatus. It is WAY messier to have to fire someone for cause partway through the season, and make sure everything is kosher. Sure it would have caused an uproar if they fired Thomas like that, but they caused an uproar firing him this way (and depending on how it goes, possibly opened themselves up to a lawsuit). Plus if they were simply trying to save money, you think they would have fired Joe, because he makes the most money, and you can EASILY justify letting him go for creative reasons. No, I don't think this was some great conspiracy to get rid of Thomas, and I agree, Virgil doesn't have the power to directly fire anyone. Ultimately this was the network's call. 

Edited August 19, 2016 by ForeverAlone

[Danielg342]

It's probably costlier to fire someone after production started, because of the threat of a lawsuit. The possibility might still occur even if the network doesn't renew a contract, but at least in the case of a non-renewal, the network knows it would have much more of an ironclad case that would make litigation difficult, if not impossible. In the case of a firing, the threat of litigation is almost a given and since firings can be messy, there's always the chance the network didn't "do it properly".

[zannej]

Here's an article discussing the fandom's reaction to the incident.  http://www.complex.com/pop-culture/2016/08/criminal-minds-fandom-torn-after-thomas-gibson-firing

I know people talk about how the cast talk about what a family they are and how they all get along: This is typical Hollywood smoke blowing. A lot of the times they put on a happy face and claim everything is peachy and years later it comes out that some of the people actively hated one another or someone was showing up drunk all the time or that things were a mess. They are paid to play their characters and promote the show. If people think they aren't as close as they pretend, it might ruin the show for them (I know it wouldn't ruin it for everyone, but some people care about that sort of thing). And really, admitting to not liking other cast members while still working with them is bound to cause stress.

I don't know what TG is like or if he has mental problems or if he's just going through rough times right now.

As for kicking in the shin-- I've seen it done a few times (but not by adults). I remember we were getting on the schoolbus and I said "bye" to a friend of mine who happened to be black. A racist asshole kid who was the same age as me said "What are you talking to that n***er for?" My little brother charged over and kicked him in the shin. Kid hopped up and down and held his shin and then made some weak threat. He knew he couldn't get away with hitting a kid that much younger and smaller than him on the bus.

So, yeah, people do kick others in the shin. I imagine it isn't unheard of for adults to do it too.

Edited August 19, 2016 by zannej

[Old Dog]

Tari Jordan certainly doesn't speak for me! I'm still amazed that so many people commenting and posting seem to have been present at this incident - they must have been to comment so judgmentally on what happened (sarcasm). Details of what actually went down are still not clear and cast and crew have been hushed up. I have seen a comment from a witness that was pulled that implied that the kick was a reaction in self defence. I simply do not believe that the kicking came out of nowhere without extreme provocation. There's more to this story than they are letting on and I prefer to reserve final judgment until actual facts are known and not believe everything I read from people who obviously weren't there and are condemning because of hearsay and opinion. JMHO.

[zannej]

There really does seem to be a divide among the fans on this topic. I just wish that more people were hashing it out more civilly like we are doing here.

It is a shame that people are attacking others for not sharing their opinions.

Hopefully that will die down with time.

I just hope the writers handle the exit story well.

[JMO]

That 'article' is an opinion piece.  Like Old Dog, I prefer to represent my own opinions, and not be represented by others.  

From the beginning of this, the discussion has been driven by presumptions, "sources on set", "sources close to Gibson", intimations of chronic discord, proclamations by fans, hints by "industry insiders"-----all informed by one degree or another of personal bias. The only "official statement" announced the firing of Gibson, for which no reason was given. It's not unlike watching political pundits opining on matters to which they are not privy. 

We may or may not be given the actual facts on this, ever. While I'm as curious as the next person, I would be content to live in ignorance, if it meant that private business had been conducted privately.  

[smoker]

It's funny there were people/articles acusing some fans of not separating Hotch from TG when many of us fear for how they are going to treat a character as important as Hotch under this circumstance. I think every character is far away from their shining selves so whatever you like the character or not, nobody can deny it's a central one.

we all want a good exist story and a good end for Hotch, @zannej. Although it will be awfully difficult without a few scenes including Hotch. I shiver when I think of the "talented" writing staff and the crafty work they need to do.

Edited August 19, 2016 by smoker

[normasm]

3 hours ago, Old Dog said:

Tari Jordan certainly doesn't speak for me! I'm still amazed that so many people commenting and posting seem to have been present at this incident - they must have been to comment so judgmentally on what happened (sarcasm). Details of what actually went down are still not clear and cast and crew have been hushed up. I have seen a comment from a witness that was pulled that implied that the kick was a reaction in self defence. I simply do not believe that the kicking came out of nowhere without extreme provocation. There's more to this story than they are letting on and I prefer to reserve final judgment until actual facts are known and not believe everything I read from people who obviously weren't there and are condemning because of hearsay and opinion. JMHO.

Just quoting this so people might read it again - you put this beautifully, Old Dog.

Edited August 19, 2016 by normasm

[Willowy]

I don't think that particular article is an opinion piece, is it? Kristen Yoonsoo-Kim seems to be reporting the facts so far. I have seen several opinion articles though, with widely varying takes on what happened.

[JMO]

23 minutes ago, Franky said:

I don't think that particular article is an opinion piece, is it? Kristen Yoonsoo-Kim seems to be reporting the facts so far. I have seen several opinion articles though, with widely varying takes on what happened.

Yes, I was referencing that article.  She's pretty open about inserting her own opinion in it, and then citing a single fan who proactively emailed her.   Since the only fact we know so far is that Thomas GIbson was fired, all of the rest of it is heavily colored speculation. 

[orza]

It is a fact that Gibson kicked Williams. There were eye witnesses. No one involved is disputing that fact, not even Gibson.

[Willowy]

And there were eyewitnesses, and an investigation. Like it says in the article, Virgil wasn't disciplined. So I guess I don't see anything wrong in what Kristen, or the fan, said. People are allowed to give their opinion on what's happening. Also she emailed the fan, not the other way around. 

I'm surprised at the hostility towards the article, given many here share the same opinions stated. 

[JMO]

There were obviously eyewitnesses, none of whom have spoken publicly.  Until or unless there is formal, public disclosure from them, by name, and without substantial conflict among the various accounts, we have only the leaked reports of individuals who have chosen to leak, each for a reason.  That doesn't make their accounts wrong, but nor does it make them right.  It's understandable that people would draw conclusions about which type of account is correct based on the ultimate outcome, but it doesn't make those conclusions correct.

For the moment, we have only two things as fact: Thomas' acknowledgement of a disagreement, and the announcement of his firing.  The networks involved were free to say why they'd fired him, but didn't choose to do so.  They also didn't choose to address whether they'd disciplined Virgil.  I don't know how we would know, without hearing it from them, or him.  Not every form of discipline is publicly accomplished.

Edited August 19, 2016 by JMO

[FormerMod-a1]

I thought part of the announcement was they fired him due to the kicking incident and prior history (the shoving).

[Willowy]

I don't think the eyewitnesses are aloud to speak publicly until everything is settled, right? They may have spoken privately, however, to people not bound by employment restrictions or gag orders. 

[JMO]

This is the only statement I've seen from them.  Has there been something else?

Quote

"Thomas Gibson has been dismissed from Criminal Minds," reads a statement released to PEOPLE by ABC Studios and CBS Television Studios. "Creative details for how the character's exit will be addressed in the show will be announced at a later date." 

My guess is the same as yours, Franky, that those on set that day are not permitted to speak publicly yet, so there's no way to know who saw things one way, and who another.

[Willowy]

And this from Variety, what some consider the industry's 'bible': "Gibson’s dismissal comes after “Criminal Minds” producer ABC Studios conducted an internal review of an incident that came during filming about two weeks ago. Gibson is said to have kicked a producer on the show who has been identified by TMZ as Virgil Williams."

None of this is new, but that's the timeline we know so far. 1) Incident 2) Investigation 3) Firing. This is what every news outlet has reported. I'm willing to believe that's what happened until something else comes to light. Virgil was assaulted, by Thomas. Not to beat a dead horse. :)

[JMO]

That horse is well and truly dead, and has taken all of his secrets to the grave with him!

[MMC]

Has anyone seen any sort of evidence that the current cast has taken sides with Virgil Williams over Thomas Gibson like this one person on IMDb seems to be claiming. I haven't seen anything to suggest it. My guess would be they are trying to be as neutral as possible. I feel sorry for them I really do. They didn't do anything wrong, but their jobs may very well be in jeopardy. Yes there is a good chance CM might have ended this season anyway. But than it also might have lasted another 2 or 3 seasons. Although with this current situation that doesn't seem likely now.

[Old Dog]

I haven't seen any of the cast say anything - except one cryptic tweet from Kirsten about only liking shading if it comes from trees. I did note that TG's new Twitter account is followed by Larry Teng and Linda DeAndrea and of course Larry Teng tweeted nicely about working with TG. That IMDB poster seems to be another one making a lot of assumptions not based on facts.

[Mysteyman]

7 hours ago, MMC said:

Has anyone seen any sort of evidence that the current cast has taken sides with Virgil Williams over Thomas Gibson like this one person on IMDb seems to be claiming. I haven't seen anything to suggest it. My guess would be they are trying to be as neutral as possible. I feel sorry for them I really do. They didn't do anything wrong, but their jobs may very well be in jeopardy. Yes there is a good chance CM might have ended this season anyway. But than it also might have lasted another 2 or 3 seasons. Although with this current situation that doesn't seem likely now.

That could depend on how they handle this.

They have a casting vacancy.

A hole in the fabric of their show.

How will they fill that hole?

Stay tuned.

[Danielg342]

Usually shows hate turmoil...

...but this is, by far, the most I've seen anyone in the wider media talk about Criminal Minds since, well, ever (okay, maybe since the halcyon days). This can't entirely be a bad thing, can it?

[ForeverAlone]

The last time Criminal Minds got this much media coverage was when they fired AJ and Paget. :) :) :) The wider media really only cares much about Criminal Minds, when there is turmoil on set. It's just not the cool show to write about in its own right. 

[LonelyTown]

I don't get why people are so mad, though. He obviously kicked someone and he apparently has had altercations in the past. I feel for people who are going through a rough patch but I can't find a way to defend violence. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and there's no reason to be upset at anyone. He got fired due to his actions. I'm sure the powers that be didn't say "I KNOW! Let's fire one of our most prominent characters!" 

Im going to my happy place (the Reid section!) 

[ReidFan]

yeah, the silver lining may very well be the huge neon light that screams LOOK AT CRIMINAL MINDS! now because of Kickgate..

[Willowy]

You may be right, ReidFan, although I do think if anyone cares it's because we're already watching. Not sure a kicking controversy would garnish new interest in the show, except for a couple of drive-bys maybe?

Regardless, maybe a bunch of old viewers who left the show will re-tune in to see how Hotch is dispatched. And I cringed when I just wrote that last part. *sad*

[ReidFan]

I dunno. I'm a relatively new fan myself. Only started 1 1/2 years ago myself. And I started with the reruns. The new episodes conflicted with hockey games on tv so they had to go to PVR lol....But it was 'Revelations' that hooked me on the show. If I'd been watching just the 'new' episodes, I probably wouldn't've bothered continuing, it was Season of JLH, and while I don't have anything against her, her character was awful and didn't mesh for me at all. If it weren't for Mr Scratch and Nelson's Sparrow, I wouldn't have bothered with the DVDs either.

I think I find/found the personnel changes easier to take than a lot of people *because* I wasn't ten years deep invested into them. I didn't know about the Mandy thing, didn't know about the AJ & Paget thing. Because it's a police show and I'm from a police family, I find the comings and goings entirely realistic, it's what happens; there's turnover, both out of the career altogether and just changes from one unit to another. 

I hope people who liked Adam Rodriguez on whatever show he was previously on (LOL, isn't that terrible? I don't even know!) will come check it out. I hope people that love Shemar will keep watching, knowing that he'll probably be back sooner or later. And while it seems uncertain they'd ever bring Thomas Gibson back, I hope Hotchner's exit is done in a respectful manner too.

[thewhiteowl]

I hope his exit will be well done but  so little has been the last several seasons that I won't expect it. For the fans it should be done with respect but not so much for TG.  He pooped on his own character and on everyone who depends on the show for work because he lacked self control IMO.  I hated working with those that suffered from testosterone poisoning which is what I think happened here. 

[normasm]

I disagree with you, whiteowl, that this is testosterone driven, but i realize either one of us could end up being at least correct, perhaps both incorrect. 

 

I do agree with you that respect should be paid to the character of Hotch, not connected with TG, because things happened there that may preclude his deserving of the tribute himself. Sadly.

[Willowy]

I don't disagree with you, thewhiteowl, or with you, normasm. You both make great points. If temper is driven by testosterone (I don't really know if it is or isn't, except when driven by steroids - that can make people pretty freaking insane), then what I do believe is that he did lose control, and because of that, all of us lost Hotch. :'(

[Droogie]

I think we could all agree that Aaron Hotchner deserves a loving and respectful send-off, even if we don't agree whether the behind-the-scenes circumstances warrant it.

As fans of the character and the show, it is unfair to expect us to swallow some sort of haphazard, one-sentence explanation and then move on with whatever wearisome plot devices are in store for the season.  I want to see the team miss him, speak about him with respect, and I want to see them struggle in his absence.