Ratings and Scheduling: Hail to the Gods

[kismet]

Make sure every one send them a wave as they pass by. I don't think we will be seeing them next week.

I feel like they literally sabotaged the Arrow part of the crossover just to see if they could see what the bubble of people is. Because I really can't see how they thought that BM BS would maintain new viewers. It's fighting against retaining current viewers.

 

I never really want ARROW to fail, but I really do want it to fail next week. And fail on Mon Night.

[kismet]

I was thinking last night how much I wish we could do a superhero-for-superhero swap with The Flash. They take Laurel and we take Barry. Sounds fair to me!

It sounds great for us.... I love Barry! But there is no way LL is fair compensation. That's like trading a used smart car with rear end damage and getting a Maserati in return. Just to be clear we will be getting the Maserati.

Edited December 5, 2015 by kismet

[BkWurm1]

I feel like they literally sabotaged the Arrow part of the crossover just to see if they could see what the bubble of people is. Because I really can't see how they thought that BM BS would maintain new viewers. It's fighting against retaining current viewers.

 

I never really want ARROW to fail, but I really do want it to fail next week. And fail on Mon Night.

I hear ya.  Monday might tank (though even a third of the audience and they'd be happy) but I don't think that's happening with the mid season finale.  There will be those that are holding hope that the BM drama is fixed right away.  And 4-10 will have eyes back to see the cliffhanger whatever it is resolved.  After that though, as the manufactured angst is piled on, then we may finally see those numbers drop BUT by then I won't want the numbers to drop since I want a bump for Felicity heavy (or Donna or DaddySmoak) stuff.  Chances are I won't get what I want.  

Edited December 5, 2015 by BkWurm1

[wingster55]

It sounds great for us.... I love Barry! But there is no way LL is fair compensation. That's like trading a used smart car with rear end damage and getting a Maserati in return. Just to be clear we will be getting the Maserati.

How about...Flash gives..Caitlin for Thea? 

[dtissagirl]

I'd be down with that. Barry and Thea can date, Oliver can be grumpy about it and I'll LOL at him, and Team Arrow needs a doctor way more than it needs redundant muscle anyway.

 

Hell, I'll trade Laurel AND Thea for Caitlin. Felicity needs a lady character nearby that the writers aren't afraid to make her talk to.

[wingster55]

Or Thea could either give Barry a good kick in the ass and make him be a friend to Iris again...or be one herself. 

[kismet]

How about...Flash gives..Caitlin for Thea?

Caitlin is nothing special. So I wouldn't trade away anyone for her. I would probably even keep LL. But if you wanna throw her in to get rid of her. Sure we'll take her as a bonus, she does have some skills.

I like Thea now. But I could be tempted to give her away as part of the package to get Barry. I would be reluctant to do it since they really be improved her character. But we do get BA & I'm tired of having to watch the Flash most of the time.

[Starfish35]

I like Caitlin. Laurel for Caitlin would be a more than fair trade, for me. (But then I wouldn't be able to watch Flash anymore.) But I'd hate to lose Thea.

[wingster55]

Let's be semi-realistic...Arrow will never get Barry.

 

IMO any trade for Caitlin would be a loss for Arrow...worst (and most subtly problematic) actress in the Flarrow-verse. 

[Starfish35]

We really should take this conversation to the Mind Your Surroundings thread if we plan to continue it.

[Starfish35]

Replying in the Mind Your Surroundings thread.

[Genki]

Wendy contributes to this Vulture piece about TV professionals and their relationship with ratings.

 

Puts in words what we know goes on in the writer's room.

 

 

Now Arrow has settled into a pretty constant number — we have an incredibly devoted audience — but the truth is, the anxiety never really goes away. It just changes. In the beginning, we were worried about getting big enough ratings to earn a season two; now we’re worried about holding on to those ratings, and more importantly, holding the audience’s interest. No matter how long your show has been on, you always want to be relevant — you want to reward your longtime fans for their loyalty and at the same time try to bring new viewers into the fold. To do that, you have to keep coming up with new stories, cool action sequences you haven’t done before, shocking plot twists, surprising character revelations — and you have to do it in a way that’s fresh and exciting. Whether or not you’re succeeding at this has a huge impact on the future of your show since ratings in the fourth season are sometimes viewed as a bellwether: If you’re holding your numbers, your chances of getting another five years out of the show are much higher.

[statsgirl]

Bless her,  But another five years?  Is she smoking what MG is?

[BkWurm1]

Whether or not you’re succeeding at this has a huge impact on the future of your show since ratings in the fourth season are sometimes viewed as a bellwether: If you’re holding your numbers, your chances of getting another five years out of the show are much higher.

 

Anyone else feel like she pretty much confirmed (if there was any doubt) that Felicity is NOT dying?  If they are really concerned about not rocking the rating boat this season, then no way would they put her in the ground and then have 3-4 more episodes just dangling out there to possibly take the hit.

 

As for the another five year remark, hey, they are on the CW, they can reasonably dream big as the number two highest rated show.  As long as the network doesn't fold and as long as they can keep SA, they could conceivably go longer than 9 seasons.  Of course the character's chances of being recognizable at that point are really slim but perhaps by then WM will be running the show and the crazy twist will be turning out a wonderfully written product.

 

It's funny, I'm sure Arrow one way or the other will be around through the sixth season but I don't know if I want to root for good ratings or bad. 

Edited December 6, 2015 by BkWurm1

[quarks]

Supernatural has lasted for 11 seasons, and although the ratings have, not surprisingly, fallen over that time, the show still enjoys strong DVD sales, with season 10, released back in September, at 210 for all Movies and TV over on Amazon.com; the Blu-Ray is at 509. It's more than understandable that Berlanti has hopes that Arrow or Flash or both could replicate that success. How realistic those hopes are is another question.

[tv echo]

Haven't the EPs learned anything from the fact that the lighter Flash is getting higher ratings than Arrow?  Or the fact that S3 ended on a happy note with O&F driving off into the sunset and S4 (401) debuted with the highest season premiere ratings since the pilot?

 

Arrow doesn't have to be as light as Flash, but too much doom & gloom is not going to help ratings.

Edited December 6, 2015 by tv echo

[quarks]

Haven't the EPs learned anything from the fact that the lighter Flash is getting higher ratings than Arrow?  Or the fact that S3 ended on a happy note with O&F driving off into the sunset and S4 (401) debuted with the highest season premiere ratings since the pilot?

 

Arrow doesn't have to be as light as Flash, but too much doom & gloom is not going to help ratings.

 

That might not be the viewpoint of the producers, for any number of reasons:

 

1.  Leaving aside reality shows and the NFL, the ratings/total viewers winners for the fall season so far have been serious dramas. Empire has regularly beaten everything else in the ratings (and clearly dominates Twitter), including The Big Bang Theory and Modern Family; Grey's Anatomy, Scandal, NCIS,  The Good Wife and even Blindspot have often beaten popular comedies like The Middle and The Goldbergs. 

 

Meanwhile, Game of Thrones is doing great five seasons in, although "doom and gloom" is arguably a bit too mild a term there, and Netflix reports that Jessica Jones is doing very well for them.

 

So yes, Flash seems to be the exception, not the rule here.

 

2. The demo is only one factor. The demo is only one factor. The demo is only one factor. I really can't emphasize this enough, but if you don't believe me, check out that article that was just linked, where the producers are talking about focusing on things other than the demo, and outright stating that they are as nervous about Live+3 and Live+7 ratings as the demo. That tells you where the money is.

 

(And the reason I tend to focus more on total viewers is that, although I know it's against the accepted wisdom of fans, in my current experience, total viewers are more important to networks than the demo. Fox recently announced that they aren't even going to be looking at/reporting the demo anymore since it's no longer a useful metric to them. The CW, because of the affiliate issue, is a little different, and the demo is still important to those affiliates, since they depend on ad buys, but as CBS and now Time Warner keep telling us, CW shows earn most of their revenue from post views, not live views/ad buys.)

 

3. We don't have access to the numbers for another important factor - just how many people are buying episodes to stream on Amazon, iTunes, Google Play and other streaming services. Without those numbers, I have no idea how much revenue Arrow generates from these sales (some? A lot? who knows?) or how those numbers respond to anything happening on the show.

 

Or, for that matter, which show is selling better on streaming services. Sure, it's probably Flash, but for what it's worth, Supernatural season 10 DVDs got a higher ranking on Amazon in the first sales week than Flash season 1 did, even though Flash's ratings/viewers are considerably better than Supernatural's.  (Flash outsold Arrow  in DVDs/Blu-rays, though, so my guess is that more people are streaming Flash than Arrow through Amazon and other services. But I really don't know, and I could easily be wrong here.)

 

4. Having said all that, up until this episode, Arrow HAS taken a much lighter touch this season.  And even in this last episode, the biggest moment of doom and gloom - everyone dying - was immediately undone by Barry. The other serious plot - Samantha - was only one third of the episode, and the episode still had a number of lighthearted moments and jokes.  So, Arrow already seems to be responding to your complaint - with this one exception.

 

5. From a purely production standpoint, episodes 408/409 were already blocked out, scripted, and in some cases partly filmed before the producers had any chance to react to the higher demo for the more lighthearted episode 401. 

 

6. I think that Arrow's producers do focus on ratings trends and viewer responses - Barry Allen keeps making appearances on the show; Laurel was dropped as the love interest; after fan complaints about the Oliver/Sara hookup, and when Arrow's ratings/viewers dropped off at the second half of season 2, Sara was killed off; after the infuriated fan response, Sara was brought back.  It's why I'm expecting Barry Allen to cross over in Legends of Tomorrow and Arrow again, and why, after this week, I'm not too worried about Samantha sticking around.  This doesn't mean that Arrow always gauges viewer reaction correctly - in more than one case, I'd argue that they completely misjudged the audience response.  But that does happen in television; it's hardly unique to Arrow.

[Guest]

Ten seasons of Arrow? Uh, no thanks.

[SmallScreenDiva]

That might not be the viewpoint of the producers, for any number of reasons:

 

1.  Leaving aside reality shows and the NFL, the ratings/total viewers winners for the fall season so far have been serious dramas. Empire has regularly beaten everything else in the ratings (and clearly dominates Twitter), including The Big Bang Theory and Modern Family; Grey's Anatomy, Scandal, NCIS,  The Good Wife and even Blindspot have often beaten popular comedies like The Middle and The Goldbergs. 

 

Meanwhile, Game of Thrones is doing great five seasons in, although "doom and gloom" is arguably a bit too mild a term there, and Netflix reports that Jessica Jones is doing very well for them.

 

So yes, Flash seems to be the exception, not the rule here.

 

2. The demo is only one factor. The demo is only one factor. The demo is only one factor. I really can't emphasize this enough, but if you don't believe me, check out that article that was just linked, where the producers are talking about focusing on things other than the demo, and outright stating that they are as nervous about Live+3 and Live+7 ratings as the demo. That tells you where the money is.

 

(And the reason I tend to focus more on total viewers is that, although I know it's against the accepted wisdom of fans, in my current experience, total viewers are more important to networks than the demo. Fox recently announced that they aren't even going to be looking at/reporting the demo anymore since it's no longer a useful metric to them. The CW, because of the affiliate issue, is a little different, and the demo is still important to those affiliates, since they depend on ad buys, but as CBS and now Time Warner keep telling us, CW shows earn most of their revenue from post views, not live views/ad buys.)

 

3. We don't have access to the numbers for another important factor - just how many people are buying episodes to stream on Amazon, iTunes, Google Play and other streaming services. Without those numbers, I have no idea how much revenue Arrow generates from these sales (some? A lot? who knows?) or how those numbers respond to anything happening on the show.

 

Or, for that matter, which show is selling better on streaming services. Sure, it's probably Flash, but for what it's worth, Supernatural season 10 DVDs got a higher ranking on Amazon in the first sales week than Flash season 1 did, even though Flash's ratings/viewers are considerably better than Supernatural's.  (Flash outsold Arrow  in DVDs/Blu-rays, though, so my guess is that more people are streaming Flash than Arrow through Amazon and other services. But I really don't know, and I could easily be wrong here.)

 

4. Having said all that, up until this episode, Arrow HAS taken a much lighter touch this season.  And even in this last episode, the biggest moment of doom and gloom - everyone dying - was immediately undone by Barry. The other serious plot - Samantha - was only one third of the episode, and the episode still had a number of lighthearted moments and jokes.  So, Arrow already seems to be responding to your complaint - with this one exception.

 

5. From a purely production standpoint, episodes 408/409 were already blocked out, scripted, and in some cases partly filmed before the producers had any chance to react to the higher demo for the more lighthearted episode 401. 

 

6. I think that Arrow's producers do focus on ratings trends and viewer responses - Barry Allen keeps making appearances on the show; Laurel was dropped as the love interest; after fan complaints about the Oliver/Sara hookup, and when Arrow's ratings/viewers dropped off at the second half of season 2, Sara was killed off; after the infuriated fan response, Sara was brought back.  It's why I'm expecting Barry Allen to cross over in Legends of Tomorrow and Arrow again, and why, after this week, I'm not too worried about Samantha sticking around.  This doesn't mean that Arrow always gauges viewer reaction correctly - in more than one case, I'd argue that they completely misjudged the audience response.  But that does happen in television; it's hardly unique to Arrow.

 

quarks, would you mind sharing a few more recent moments whee you think the show completely misjudged audience response?

[quarks]

The reaction to this Samantha plot comes immediately to mind.

[wonderwall]

quarks, would you mind sharing a few more recent moments whee you think the show completely misjudged audience response?

I'm not Quarks but:

• the reaction to the Samantha Plot
• Every single Laurel arc
• Felicity dating Ray
• Ray
• Entirety of Season 3

[TyranAmiros]

Don't forget leaving Roy potentially dead and The Lunge.

[quarks]

Leaving Roy potentially dead doesn't count; that was a production error. One that I think Arrow should have caught, granted, but that wasn't deliberately written into the script in the hopes that audiences would enjoy it or at least be intrigued.  That's more an example of hasty writing and forcing writers to also work as producers on each episode.

[statsgirl]

I'd guess they didn't anticipate the reaction to Sara's death. They probably hoped we would be upset but not the rage that many of us felt.

 

They probably thought that Ra's was a good villain too.

 

And Felicity telling Laurel that she has a light Sara didn't was a huge fail.

Edited December 7, 2015 by statsgirl

[Sakura12]

And Felicity telling Laurel that she has a light Sara didn't was a huge fail.

 

But now we'll have Laurel telling Sara to go fight in the light. Sara needs Miss heavenly light to to give her light to be a hero. I know they probably want that to be a sweet scene but they've tainted the sisterly relationship so badly that it looks to be Sara needing Laurel to tell her to be a hero. When Sara's been helping people and wasn't doing it for hero accolades. Even when she had no soul she was protecting women from rapists. She doesn't need Laurel to tell her do what's right, she'll do it anyway. 

 

They definitely misread the Laurel using Sara's voice to trick her father into believing Sara's still alive storyline. I have no idea what they expected from that. I mean, how could they not see how disrespectful that was to Sara and to Quentin? 

Edited December 8, 2015 by Sakura12

[statsgirl]

I think they tend to go overboard on the comics fanboy stuff and don't think that it doesn't appear that way to many of us in the audience.

[tv echo]

Regarding ratings for last night's re-airing of the Flash/Arrow crossover eps...

And on The CW, encores of The Flash (1.1 million/0.3 rating) and Arrow (1 million/0.3 rating) pulled similar ratings to the most recent episodes of Jane The Virgin and Crazy Ex-Girlfriend.

TV Ratings Report: Telenovela is DOA
Paul Dailly at December 8, 2015 11:30 am
http://www.tvfanatic.com/2015/12/tv-ratings-report-telenovela-is-doa/

Edited December 8, 2015 by tv echo

[kismet]

Regarding ratings for last night's re-airing of the Flash/Arrow crossover eps...

TV Ratings Report: Telenovela is DOA

Paul Dailly at December 8, 2015 11:30 am

http://www.tvfanatic.com/2015/12/tv-ratings-report-telenovela-is-doa/

Not that I watched it, but somehow a Dec Mon premiere is certainly not "the best lead-in" for any new show, that seemed an odd statement by the author.  Telenovela might be DOA, but NBC wasn't setting it up for success.

 

Its interesting that the FLARROW Xover reair got the same ratings as the standard CW Mon fare. Perhaps that's just what CW can garner on a Mon night and it doesn't matter what they put on the air. Since it seems those numbers have been consistent on Mondays.

[catrox14]

How about...Flash gives..Caitlin for Thea? 

 

Hell no. Thea stays on Arrow. FIGHT ME

[Morrigan2575]

Monday has been a problem for the CW for awhile now. I'm actually surprised they haven't tried SPN out on Monday nights. Might be the only show that can get decent (for the CW) ratings.

[kismet]

Monday has been a problem for the CW for awhile now. I'm actually surprised they haven't tried SPN out on Monday nights. Might be the only show that can get decent (for the CW) ratings.

My guess is the content is not really 8pm appropriate all the time & they don't want to put it up against Gotham @ 9p. Not that Gotham is knocking it out of the park. But it seems like it would draw from the same audience. Plus Mon has seemed to be one of their "female" blocks, so perhaps that's another reason since SPN is a gender neutral or "male" show. SPN has a very loyal fanbase, so like I've said before I think it would follow it to wherever the CW put it.

[Morrigan2575]

SPN does have a loyal fanbase which is why I'm surprised they never tried it out on Monday nights.  Monday's have been issues for a long time and SPN has been on every weeknight except Monday.  I doubt it's Gotham since SPN and iZombie air opposite Agents of Shield, in fact many people predicted SPN would be crushed when AoS moved from 8 PM to 9 PM but it held steady.

 

SPN is (or at least was) Gender Neutral but maybe they don't want it to go up against Monday Night Football?  I thought for sure they'd move Flash to the Thursday night spot this season but someone on SpoilerTV pointed out that Flash skewed young male and they wouldn't put it up against Thursday Night Football.  

[Sasha]

Maybe someone can explain to me why the young male demographic is so important? My son, 24, doesn't watch any of these shows. I am the one that buys the dvds and has a collection of Arrow funko pops. I'm the one that watches live and sits through commercials. I've stuck with SPN all these years and tend to stay loyal to my shows. But Arrow season three sucked hard and I don't watch live anymore. I had the Nielson people call me but I didn't fit the demo they were looking for in my zip code. Too old I suppose! I find the entire rating thing rather insulting.

[Morrigan2575]

I think the Male Demo is important to the CW because for years under Dawn O. they were the "teen girl" channel.  Dawn O's plan to market the channel to one very specific demo 18-34W was a massive bust and one of the things Mark Pedowitz has done is try to bring in male viewers.  He's been very vocal about courting the male (18-34M) demo which I think people mistake for CW only cares about Young Men.  From everything I've read and from the shows The CW develops Mark P is trying to strike a balance between young male/female demo.  

 

Arrow, Flash, LoT, are geared towards 18-34M

The Originals, Vampire Diaries, Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, Reign and Jane the Virgin are geared towards 18-34W

 

SPN has historically been a 50/50 split between 18-34M and 18-34W demo.  

 

I'm not certain about i-Zombie and The 100, they both have female protagonists but are genre shows. 

Edited December 9, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[kismet]

SPN does have a loyal fanbase which is why I'm surprised they never tried it out on Monday nights.  Monday's have been issues for a long time and SPN has been on every weeknight except Monday.  I doubt it's Gotham since SPN and iZombie air opposite Agents of Shield, in fact many people predicted SPN would be crushed when AoS moved from 8 PM to 9 PM but it held steady.

 

SPN is (or at least was) Gender Neutral but maybe they don't want it to go up against Monday Night Football?  I thought for sure they'd move Flash to the Thursday night spot this season but someone on SpoilerTV pointed out that Flash skewed young male and they wouldn't put it up against Thursday Night Football.  

I thought about MNF as another possible reason, but it's less than half the actual season. Doesn't Big Bang Theory then takes its place on Mondays? That combination of slot fillers is probably a contributing reason. I have NO idea what the appeal of BBT is, but apparently everybody LOVES it. I wonder what will happen if LoT does get a second season? Because then it would have the same problem with Thurs NF. SPN never being on Mon in the 11years it has been on TV is truly astounding considered it has moved a lot in the past decade.

 

I just hope they never move ARROW to Monday or Thurs, because I personally would have TV conflicts. I think ARROW is perfect on Weds or Tues and when its dying Fri works as well.

 

I agree about Pedozwitz and aiming for balance. From everything I've read he is trying to maintain a balance of gender demographics and genres on the CW. Which I think he has succeeded at. I'm not even sure CW care as much about ratings as the standard networks do. But they do care about cultivating a fandom & a following. They need people to want to watch their shows so they can sell them in the other markets. So ratings are important, but they are only part of the equation to Pedowitz's plan. I do feel like where ratings come into play is in the actual scheduling of the shows once they are purchased. That is where your ratings matter because certain goals & profits need to be made on certain nights.

[Morrigan2575]

MNF is on ESPN all season long  

 

Thursday Night Football is split between NFL Network and CBS.  CBS had weeks 2-8 and NFL has weeks 9-16 with CBS running those games only in the local markets.  Big Bang Theory was moved to Monday's for the start of the Football season and now is back on Thursday Night, with Supergirl taking TBBT's spot on Monday Night before Scorpion.

[dtissagirl]

I agree about Pedozwitz and aiming for balance. From everything I've read he is trying to maintain a balance of gender demographics and genres on the CW. Which I think he has succeeded at. I'm not even sure CW care as much about ratings as the standard networks do. But they do care about cultivating a fandom & a following. They need people to want to watch their shows so they can sell them in the other markets. So ratings are important, but they are only part of the equation to Pedowitz's plan. I do feel like where ratings come into play is in the actual scheduling of the shows once they are purchased. That is where your ratings matter because certain goals & profits need to be made on certain nights.

 

Pedowitz is probably the one person involved in this that's worried about ratings still, since he's the one that has to spin those numbers to ad buyers and affiliates. I'm pretty sure Live/SD ratings are not that much relevant anymore for the CW -- there was a quote from him from TCA, I think, saying the Flash's total audience was made of something like 75% post-live broadcast? So L+3 and L+7 [all the way to L+30] definitely matter to a dude running a network. But he doesn't have much to do with selling the shows to other markets, or to other digital platforms. I don't think that brings significant revenue back to the CW.

[kismet]

Pedowitz is probably the one person involved in this that's worried about ratings still, since he's the one that has to spin those numbers to ad buyers and affiliates. I'm pretty sure Live/SD ratings are not that much relevant anymore for the CW -- there was a quote from him from TCA, I think, saying the Flash's total audience was made of something like 75% post-live broadcast? So L+3 and L+7 [all the way to L+30] definitely matter to a dude running a network. But he doesn't have much to do with selling the shows to other markets, or to other digital platforms. I don't think that brings significant revenue back to the CW.

I was referencing only the standard neilsen live ratings with the age demos attached. Not the post-live ratings, digital download/streamings. Those are the bread & butter of the CW shows. Sorry if I wasn't specific :)

[quarks]

Maybe someone can explain to me why the young male demographic is so important? My son, 24, doesn't watch any of these shows. I am the one that buys the dvds and has a collection of Arrow funko pops. I'm the one that watches live and sits through commercials. I've stuck with SPN all these years and tend to stay loyal to my shows. But Arrow season three sucked hard and I don't watch live anymore. I had the Nielson people call me but I didn't fit the demo they were looking for in my zip code. Too old I suppose! I find the entire rating thing rather insulting.

 

Blame television history. For decades television shows were paid for by ad buys. Over time, the demo became a simplified way of determining ad buy rates for nightly primetime shows, under the theory that the "demo," unlike other gender/age groups, represented a target audience willing to buy big ticket items like cars. 

 

For a number of reasons, networks are moving away from this model - Fox just dropped it entirely - and are looking at other revenue sources (Fox), working to provide new ways of providing more effective audience outreach to their corporate partners (CBS), leveraging their quality family entertainment as part of a global synergy model that continues to keep their worldwide franchises among the most recognized and popular in the world (ABC) and trying to get a clue (NBC.)

 

The CW is in a different situation, since they don't own their broadcast stations. Those stations, in turn, are still making their revenue through ad buys, not to other methods. So for the stations, the ad buys are still important - even though Arrow gets most of its revenue from post-views.

 

The Nielsen thing about the demo and the zip code is a separate issue. Nielsen works with statistics/sampling, which means that within a certain zip code, they need to have the people using their boxes correspond fairly closely to U.S. Census reports for that zip code, otherwise the sampling doesn't work. Basically, they were already getting info from someone else in your zip code of the same age/gender. They've turned down households that are within that demo because they already have enough for that zip code.

[dtissagirl]

I was referencing only the standard neilsen live ratings with the age demos attached. Not the post-live ratings, digital download/streamings. Those are the bread & butter of the CW shows. Sorry if I wasn't specific :)

 

Yeah, but it's what @quarks just posted. Because the CW is a special snowflake network, Pedowitz has to justify Live ratings to affiliates. Maybe that'll change soon -- hopefully ASAP now that FOX announced they think overnight numbers are irrelevant. But the affiliate thing means that right now, local ad buyers looking into putting their money in a CW commercial break are still only concerned with overnights.

[Morrigan2575]

I don't see it changing because of FOX's moves.  FOX is relatively irrelevant on this one, they're doing it because they're L+SD ratings are horrible and they're only doing it for their scripted shows.  They're still putting Releases out for their Sunday Sporting events, so it's more of a smoke screen to cover the fact that they're sinking to CW territory.

 

I can't remember if it was 2013 or 2014 TCAs but Les Moonves mentioned that CBS has started using L+7 ratings in their ad rate pricing scheme.  The only way the importance on the demo or which ratings Live, L+SD, L+3 or L+7 changes is if both the Networks and the Media/Ad Buyers agree to move towards a new standard and, even then it'll be slow going.  

[quarks]

I don't see it changing because of FOX's moves.  FOX is relatively irrelevant on this one, they're doing it because they're L+SD ratings are horrible and they're only doing it for their scripted shows.  They're still putting Releases out for their Sunday Sporting events, so it's more of a smoke screen to cover the fact that they're sinking to CW territory.

 

I can't remember if it was 2013 or 2014 TCAs but Les Moonves mentioned that CBS has started using L+7 ratings in their ad rate pricing scheme.  The only way the importance on the demo or which ratings Live, L+SD, L+3 or L+7 changes is if both the Networks and the Media/Ad Buyers agree to move towards a new standard and, even then it'll be slow going.  

 

I think television will - slowly - shift towards a model where budgets are based on all revenue sources, not just live views/ad buys - if only because the revenue from those live views/ad buys has dropped so significantly for everything outside of sports, just as HBO is posting revenue gains and revenue from Amazon/iTunes/international views is increasing.  But this shift doesn't seem to be happening quickly, at least from my viewpoint.

 

With Arrow, I'm mostly carping because CBS and Time Warner quarterly reports are now saying that most of the revenue for Arrow and Flash is coming in from post-views, and yet, the budget for both shows still seems to be constrained by ad buys, which is frustrating me as a viewer.  

[Morrigan2575]

Oh, I agree, it should shift and eventually I think it will shift but, it will take time and be a slow progression.  Nothing changes overnight even if people know it's a flawed model.

 

ETA: Flash scored a 1.2 in the demo last night.  Last week Arrow actually tied Flash in the demo, I wonder if it could tie or beat Flash this week?  More than likely Arrow will drop to a 1.1 or a 1.0 but it would be interesting if Arrow managed to beat Flash.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Velocity23]

I didnt find the Flash promos all that exciting to be honest. Especially for a midseason finale.  And i dont think Trickster is everyones favorite cup of tea.

[way2interested]

It was probably because Zoom, or anything Earth-2 related, weren't even featured heavily in promotion or in the episode in general. This episode was fine as an episode, but for a midseason finale it really under-performed. I'm not sure why the writers thought that this would be a good way to excite people to come back for 2b. If it was for Mark Hamill's appearance, they did that in a regular episode in 117, did they expect a renewed excitement because of the midseason placement? The promos screamed, "This is a villain-of-the-week episode that has no effect on the plot," and even the most influential parts for long-term plot lines in the episode (Wally, Harry's secret) were secondary to the villain plot.

 

Here's hoping that the dramatic promotion for tonight's episode didn't create an underwhelming episode.

[dtissagirl]

Does this go here? Return dates for all CW shows:

 

[Morrigan2575]

Thanks. Very helpful

[tv echo]

As for The Flash, it saw a drop after last week's crossover with Arrow. It shed three-tenths a of a point in the key demo to an average 1.2 rating among adults 18-49.

TV Ratings: 'Scream Queens' Wraps Steady Season, Victoria's Secret Pops for CBS

DECEMBER 09, 2015 9:39am PT by Michael O'Connell

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/tv-ratings-scream-queens-wraps-847043

[Sasha]

Thanks for all the great breakdowns from everyone. I suppose there must be some science behind the 18 to 49 males with deep pockets. Guess I was raised differently where the women in the family control the money. My Dad still gets a weekly allowance from my Mom. I think tonight I will actually watch the commercials and see what these guys are selling and who they think is buying. I bet it won't be diapers or cholesterol medication.

On a related note when I was in high school my Dad worked for a large liquor distributor and got me a job watching tv for a wine cooler company. I would write down every commercial and highlight the "bad" ones. They didn't want any other alcohol advertised during the same 30 minutes or really bad was bodily functions. No tampons or laxatives next to the booze!

Edited December 9, 2015 by Sasha

[Starfish35]

The Flash was adjusted up to 1.3. Still a season low, but only off 0.1 from last week.

http://www.showbuzzdaily.com/articles/showbuzzdailys-top-150-tuesday-cable-originals-network-update-12-8-2015.html