Morality in Storybrooke / Social Issues: Threads Combined!

[Shanna Marie]

It's also kind of funny how for everyone else the lesson is you have to do it TOGETHER, including the present-day story of fighting against Cerberus.  Whereas with Snow in the flashback and Charming in "White Out", it's if you don't single-handedly do this yourself (and no, Hercules isn't going to help you), then you're a LOSER, a FAILURE and a SORRY EXCUSE FOR A LEADER (Snow) or a SNIVELLING COWARD (Charming).

That is a good point. Those flashbacks contradict the messages given in the rest of the show and by these same characters. Both of them learn a Valuable Lesson that they have to do things themselves, and then they turn around and preach the gospel of teamwork.

 

It would have been more in keeping with the values of the show if, instead of David getting one sword fighting lesson and then singlehandedly defeating a warlord and her goons, David had gained the courage to step up and rally the other farmers in the area to stand up to Bo Peep since she could only bully them one at a time, but they were stronger than she was if they stood together. And if, instead of Snow learning that she had to singlehandedly face down the bandits (and then let them go), she had instead learned strategy from the way Herc handled one of his Labors and maybe embedded soldiers in some villages to set a trap for the Bandits. She could still have done her fancy archery and been the face of authority as the bandits were captured, and that would have demonstrated true leadership and teamwork.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I liked Mulan in season two, but my one gripe about it is she felt very out of place in the Enchanted Forest because her backstory is kinda unexplored. Even the episode, "The Outsider" delegated the place she came from as some random village, and then her saying a throwaway line about serving in the army for the emperor.

In 3A and 5A, Mulan morphed into the token lesbian character. Her backstory has always been vaguely touched on and only plays into her current superficial role. Her pairing with Red is so contrived. It's as if the writers saw two strong females who weren't busy, not dating any men, were expendable, and thought they could work as a method of shoehorning in a lesbian couple. 5x09 jumped through so many hoops to get those two to meet. A&E don't care about Mulan as a character as much as they want to check "we tackled diversity" off their OUAT bucket list.

 

They showed Mulan so unhappy after being declined by Aurora. Then she meets another woman and she gets her spark back. This writing continues to preach that if you're single you should be depressed...

Edited March 27, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Faemonic]

I don't get it, and I especially don't see how Mulan might fall into the whole butch lesbian stereotype. Is it because of

 

Nope, not because of the trousers, not because of the sword, not because of the Dungeons and Dragons fighter class...okay, maybe because of that, if we counted Mulan's backstory and why it was So Important Thing that Mulan was a woman dressing as a man in order to be a soldier. Even if we weren't meant to know Mulan's backstory, the show goes through Mulan's gender with a highlighter in ways that it doesn't for the other princesses. She's been in the position of being the only woman Merry Man in Offscreenville before. Aurora mistakes Mulan for a man. Merida mistakes Mulan for a man. Belle's bullies mistake Mulan for a man. That's more misgendering than Snow, Nimue, and Jack combined. I wonder if the show is trying to tell us something with a shower of anvils.

 

I think Mulan fits in with the women of the show perfectly.

You're entitled to that. I on the other hand think that Mulan is othered as all Hades as has become the embodiment to me of the major issues of intersectionality on this show. (Because I think it's really the racism that makes Mulan's characterization so sexist.)

[Serena]

People only mistake Mulan for a man when they can't see her face, because most soldiers in the EF are men. Mulan has a traditionally male job. Emma is also called a "bailbondsman" before she corrects people and Snow gets the exact same "You're a girl." reaction from Charming that Mulan gets from Aurora.

 

Also, I wish people wouldn't call Mulan and Red lesbians. I know it'll happen, but they've both shown interest in men, especially Red.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Serena

[rainbowstickers]

I'm still somewhat skeptical about Mulan previously having feelings for Phillip. Has that been confirmed at all? Aurora was upset that Mulan and Phillip seemed close and even called out Mulan for being in love with Phillip (with the reasoning that she knows love, and knows what it looks like). I'm not for or against Mulan having feelings for Phillip first before she fell for Aurora, but the way it played out on the show, the writers made it very vague and open to interpretation.

[Camera One]

Everything in this show is a little vague and open to interpretation.  It gave them some wiggle room, though they also went out of their way to create the basis for both Mulan and Aurora to be in love with Philip if they wanted to go that way.

[Shanna Marie]

I'm still somewhat skeptical about Mulan previously having feelings for Phillip. Has that been confirmed at all?

I thought that was the way they played it -- she was with Philip helping him search for Aurora and seemed to have mixed feelings about him finding her, like she wanted to help him because she cared about him but knew if he found Aurora she'd lose him. She watched with some pain as he was happily reunited with Aurora, and at that time she hadn't met Aurora, so it wasn't because she was in love with Aurora then. After the wraith got Philip, she seemed to be putting up with Aurora for his sake, keeping her safe because she knew he loved Aurora. It really was only after the fan interpretation of what they saw as romantic subtext that the writers started writing Mulan as being in love with Aurora.

[Rumsy4]

From memory, the only "gods" mentioned in this show with regards to the magical realms have been from the ancient greek pantheon. With this arc, are we to understand that the greek gods form the main supernatural pantheon of these people? It doesn't seem like anyone follows religious mores, and we don't see people praying to these gods. There are no mentions of temples/places of worship in the Enchanted Forest. None of the gods seem morally superior either. Poseidon was making his daughter lure sailors to their death, and Hades has been choking up all exits from the UW. So, what makes these "gods" different from normal people? Where do the fairies fit in?

Also, for all the obsession with good and evil, it seems like dead people have a chance to do some sort of penance/deal with unfinished business, and move on to a happier plane of existence. The UW just seems like another realm, no big deal, and Hades is its ruler. We don't see the presence of gods influence the lives of people any other way.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

Replying in "Across All Realms" thread, since I definitely agree that it's just another realm.

[KingOfHearts]

So, Henry and the Pen. I don't get it. I get that absolute power leads to corruption and no one should have it. I understand fate shouldn't be tampered with. But if that's the case, why did Merlin and the Apprentice give such a powerful device to someone when they're only supposed to record? Is the show trying to teach you shouldn't use your gifts to help others? It makes no sense. Then to make it more complicated, the Apprentice helps Henry, who he knows wants to use its power, find it. 

Edited March 29, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I don't get it either.  Is The Apprentice's job to tempt others?  And apparently, his unfinished business is finished if Henry makes the right choice?  So The Apprentice has no control over his own destiny?  Didn't Henry already make the right choice before the pen "died"?  This universe is seriously messed up, on so many different levels.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

This episode featured a mass murderer moving on to heaven with his murder victims and you're trying to make sense of the morality? Liam didn't even apologize to those sailors (who'd been stuck in the Underworld for centuries without knowing why!) or feel bad about screwing over Killian's friends and everyone else stuck in the Underworld. The only thing that was a problem was that Killian was hurt by his actions and so he was going to take his brother's place in the fire river or whatever it is and that action meant he could go to a better place. What the hell, show? 

[Camera One]

Of course victims and the perpetrator would want to spent all of eternal afterlife together on the same ship.  On that front, what else is new?

Edited March 29, 2016 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

This episode featured a mass murderer moving on to heaven with his murder victims and you're trying to make sense of the morality? Liam didn't even apologize to those sailors (who'd been stuck in the Underworld for centuries without knowing why!) or feel bad about screwing over Killian's friends and everyone else stuck in the Underworld. The only thing that was a problem was that Killian was hurt by his actions and so he was going to take his brother's place in the fire river or whatever it is and that action meant he could go to a better place. What the hell, show? 

 

Let me add something to this. While Silver was an ass, I don't think he deserved to be thrown into the fires of hell.

 

There was no balance. Liam moves on, Silver burns for all eternity.

 

As someone who thought Liam was really stuck up in 3x05, can't say this episode made me like him. 

[Mathius]

I wouldn't call Liam a mass murderer, more like a mass manslaughterer.

Still, I agree that the image of him and the victims of his actions moving on together was messed up.

[Rumsy4]

Welcome to Once Upon a Time. Where morality is subjective and the victims don't matter.

[Shanna Marie]

The moral system of the afterlife really is rather screwy. It's "unfinished business" that keeps people in the Underworld rather than moving on, but all we've seen of people moving on because they wrapped up their unfinished business involved them moving to a better place, what's apparently heaven. People get tossed into the fiery pit or the River of Souls on the whim of someone with power, regardless of their own merits. We haven't seen how someone can complete unfinished business and end up in the worse place -- maybe if their unfinished business is revenge and then they kill the person they're after rather than giving up on revenge?

 

In a weird way, up to a point it looks rather like Protestant Christian theology. In spite of the pop culture depiction of heaven for good people and hell for bad people, that theology says that any sin keeps you out of heaven, and all humans are sinners, but you can get your sins erased and gain entrance to heaven by admitting your sin, repenting of it, and accepting the forgiveness of Christ. The Once afterlife skips the Christ part, but the way they've depicted the unfinished business does look a lot like admitting sin, repenting of it, and accepting (and giving) forgiveness. So we have Henry Sr. forgiving Regina and admitting his own fault in failing her, and we have Liam admitting his deal with Hades and making amends with his brother and the sailors he wronged. I suppose in a sense you might be able to imagine that the sailors had wronged Killian by omission in not protecting him from Silver's schemes so that they got in the situation they were in, and Killian inviting them to join Liam in the boat cleared that up. Neal did his confessing and repenting (well, at first, before they went to the "I had no choice" mantra) in life and made amends and apologized before he died, so he got to skip the Underworld and went straight to heaven.

 

However, that doesn't cover Herc and Meg, since I have a hard time believing that giving your life in trying to protect someone else, even if you failed to protect them, would count as a sin that needs to be confessed and repented. It was more like Herc had some kind of cosmic mission that had to be completed, though we still have no idea what Meg's deal was. And then there's the icky bit about the people who got tossed into the fiery pit, which seemed to have absolutely nothing to do with their own behavior. There was the guy Regina murdered who got sent to "hell" so Cora could prove her power. There was Silver, who I guess wasn't willing to own up to his unfair treatment of the Jones brothers, maybe? But mostly, he was sent into the pit because Hades was in a snit. And then there's Milah, who confessed and repented of her sin but who got sent to the River of Souls anyway, which had nothing to do with her and everything to do with her ex being a bastard. Liam nearly fell into the pit from protecting Killian, so would Killian have actually fallen into the pit in spite of the fact that he's admitted his sins and repented, and repented some more, and then repented a lot more, or would it have been like Liam, where it would have turned into heaven for him? Ditto with Henry, would Cora really have had that power to send him into the pit, or would it have backfired?

[KingOfHearts]

Remember when Henry said Dark Swan was worse than Rumple and Regina and the worst thing she ender up doing was rip peoples hearts out to do her bidding and turning a vengeful pirate into a crazy ass wizard?

Emma: "The difference is that you never held yourself as some paragon of virtue. Neither of you did. You were honest about who you were. My parents weren't. They said they were heroes."

 

It's that kind of thinking that creates this wonky moral standard. If a villain does something bad, they're villains so that's just what they do. If you're a hero who does something bad, you've fallen from grace and you're accountable for it.

Edited April 9, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

The moral rules of Storybrooke are very simple.

 

Mass Murderer > Hypocrite

 

Trying to kill you last month > Lying

 

Hope that helps!

[YaddaYadda]

Emma: "The difference is that you never held yourself as some paragon of virtue. Neither of you did. You were honest about who you were. My parents weren't. They said they were heroes."

See this part bugs me more because it almost sounds like it's Henry talking. Emma is a grown ass woman who lived in the real world, where people don't fall in one category or another. And the good thing about her was that she was always able to see people like that, and that's the reason she was able to see more in someone like Hook for instance.

 

This show loves categorizing people. You're either in column A or in column B.

 

It's like in 5x08 when Hook told Emma that Regina was right, and that she was now a villain. I get he had no memories, and assumed based on her behavior that she'd done something, but they were quick to throw into the villain category.

 

Or when Henry said Emma was just the worst EVER, and that his grandpa Gold and Regina had changed, and proven they had changed. 50% of that group changed, 50% got his heart cleaned up after centuries of evil.

 

I wish the writers didn't pull stuff like that all the time. 

[Camera One]

See this part bugs me more because it almost sounds like it's Henry talking

 

When I first skimmed the quote, I thought it was Henry talking too.  It's so scary.

[KingOfHearts]

 

See this part bugs me more because it almost sounds like it's Henry talking. Emma is a grown ass woman who lived in the real world, where people don't fall in one category or another. And the good thing about her was that she was always able to see people like that, and that's the reason she was able to see more in someone like Hook for instance.

Emma's been forced to change ever since the 3B finale. She has to leave her realism at home or else someone will snap at her for not accepting who she is. She has to call Snow and David "mom and dad" because the writing needed a cheap way to show her acknowledging they're her parents. It also requires her to use terms like "heroes and villains" to display her acceptance of fairy tale characters. I'm not sure why she can't bring her real world experiences with her and use them in a positive sense. She's forced to be sucked in with everyone else and neglect many of her good qualities.

 

 

This show loves categorizing people. You're either in column A or in column B.

It makes me cringe whenever I heard cast or crew say they're no heroes or villains on the show, that nothing is black and white. It totally is. In 4B, the characters act like it's a form of discrimination.

 

Snow: Doesn't matter. It's a bad idea. They're villains.

 

I know Snow was trying to cover her own crap up right there, but they're using a label as an excuse to not let Cruella and Ursula into town. It's as if it doesn't matter what they've done or what they're going to do. They're categorized villains and that's all that matters. It takes so little to become a "villain" as it does to become a "hero".

 

 

Or when Henry said Emma was just the worst EVER, and that his grandpa Gold and Regina had changed, and proven they had changed. 50% of that group changed, 50% got his heart cleaned up after centuries of evil.

The argument that wanting to change makes you better doesn't always work. Wanting to change and actually changing are two different things. You don't necessarily get the second just because you have the first. Like you mentioned, Regina got both and Rumple only got one. Emma got called out because they were afraid of her al a 4x07. They didn't believe in her and just assumed the power got to her with little evidence.

Edited April 9, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[InsertWordHere]

The format of 5B certainly lends itself well to keeping up a morality scorecard (even if some of the morality is still messed up) if we judge by which characters are helping people finish their business. Let's see:

 

Souls moved to a better place: Henry I (Regina), Hercules (Snow), Megara (Snow/Hook/Hercules), Liam and six sailors (Hook/Liam), someone offscreen during Our Decay (I choose to believe it was the guy Snow and Charming talked to at the haunting booth). 11

 

Souls lost for all eternity: Milah (Rumple) and Gaston (Belle). 2

 

Souls sent to fiery hell thingy: Blacktooth (Cora) and Silver (Hades). 2

 

Undetermined: Horse of mysterious origin (Regina).

 

Hmm it's almost like the show is trying to tell us something about the characters helping souls move on and the characters damning them. Too bad I don't trust this show's morality at all. 

[Curio]

Welcome to the Holy Church of Horowitz & Kitsis! If you would like to join our fellowship, please follow our sacred rules:

 

All sins are created equally. Did you lie to Emma by saying her outfit looked good even though you knew that shade of green doesn't suit her skin tone? Did you murder someone just for fun? It doesn't matter! Under the Church of H&K, all sins are on the same level of darkness. Stealing a pop tart and mass murder? Same level! No one is better than the other person in our eyes. And it doesn't matter how you sin. If you commit darkness, you've already submersed yourself in it, so you might as well accept it and move on. Besides, dark and light is all about perspective anyways.

 

We believe in predestination. (Shout out to Isaac! Hope things are well wherever you are in Storybrooke now.) Are you a fun villain who likes to chew the scenery and has a convenient regular cast contract? Congratulations! You've been accepted into Writing Heaven, personally hand-picked by H&K, so no matter what you do in your mortal life you don't have to worry about the fate of your character. Everyone else? Good luck getting on our good graces. Perhaps you might consider purchasing some indulgences to improve your chances.

 

An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth...unless you've been wrongfully abused by a villain. If you seek vengeance against your wrongdoer, you will be severely punished and your wrongdoer will be given many rewards. We do that so you learn your lesson the hard way and that you promise to never seek vengeance again.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Curio

[Mathius]

See this part bugs me more because it almost sounds like it's Henry talking. Emma is a grown ass woman who lived in the real world, where people don't fall in one category or another. And the good thing about her was that she was always able to see people like that, and that's the reason she was able to see more in someone like Hook for instance.

 

And literally the next episode, Emma said "there are no heroes and villains, just real people with real problems".

Edited April 11, 2016 by Mathius

[Rumsy4]

So now, we find that killing Ogres is evil. All these Ogre wars could have been averted if only humans had treated the poor Ogre children kindly.

 

Hmm it's almost like the show is trying to tell us something about the characters helping souls move on and the characters damning them. Too bad I don't trust this show's morality at all. 

 

Good list. I'm wary of trusting the writers to make anything out of this. But the difference is pretty stark. Belle needs to stop deluding herself about her morals.

[tennisgurl]

The problem with the morality on this show (and it might be more of a writing thing then a morality thing) is that the writers think they are writing moral greyness, when they are actually just writing excuses for villains, and out of character weirdness for the heroes. By forgiving everything bad the villains do, while demonizing the heroes, they are just writing in circles, making everyone a bad guy, instead of adding moral greyness. They do lip service to the bad choices of the good guys, and the sad pasts of the bad guys, but have no real interest in really looking into why people make the choices they do, and the complexity of the human experience. This aint The Wire. 

[Rumsy4]

By forgiving everything bad the villains do, while demonizing the heroes, they are just writing in circles, making everyone a bad guy, instead of adding moral greyness.

 

Nailed it. Someone gets to be the bad guy always. It's like dressing people in different clothes, and somehow saying they are completely different people. Come to think of it--that was exactly the Storybook AU in the S4 finale. I kept wondering why the AU was supposed to be where the villains won, but Isaac just made the heroes into villains and vice versa. Isaac was simply A&E on drugs. 

Edited April 12, 2016 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

By forgiving everything bad the villains do, while demonizing the heroes, they are just writing in circles, making everyone a bad guy, instead of adding moral greyness. They do lip service to the bad choices of the good guys, and the sad pasts of the bad guys, but have no real interest in really looking into why people make the choices they do, and the complexity of the human experience.

That's not entirely unique to this show, though. That's fairly common on modern American television. Even if it's not happening with the writing on the screen, that's the way the fans tend to see it, and that often creates a feedback loop in which the writers start writing that way because they see what's popular with the fans. On Buffy, during the era when Buffy was with "Captain America"-esque Riley while Spike was forced to do good by a chip in his head, both the show and the fans seemed to think that Riley hiding all that super soldier stuff from Buffy was far worse than Spike's century or more of mass murder, and Spike helping the good guys because he could only hit demons and so helping them fight was the only way he could get his violence on practically qualified him for sainthood.

 

On most shows, it's not necessarily outright villains vs. heroes, more like bad boy vs. nice guy, but the bad boy doing one good thing that's not even as nice as the normal everyday behavior of the nice guy elevates him to hero status, while if the nice guy puts one foot wrong or makes one mistake, not even out of malice, then he's practically condemned to hell. It sometimes seems as though trying to be good is the worst sin a person can commit. Just trying means you're being judgmental and think you're better than other people, which makes you a terrible person. But if you aren't really trying to be good and just happen to stumble upon it, then that's a sign of true inner goodness, or something like that. Throw in a sad backstory (a nice guy's sad backstory never counts), and the halo appears.

 

This show just seems to be more overt about it and worse about throwing around those "hero" and "villain" labels while the writers laud themselves for writing complex shades of gray.

[KingOfHearts]

This show has a toxic message regarding abuse. It believes the abuser (or wicked person in general) can be redeemed through their victims more often than not. Anyone like Snow or Belle who relentlessly pander their abusers could be killed. It's not hope or heroism as much as it is the effects of Stockholm Syndrome. While the show attempts to teach morals, it doesn't teach the value of boundaries or basic safety. Characters believed Regina and Rumple had good in their hearts, and they were freaking mass murderers. It's enabling, which is very dangerous. 

 

It gets even worse when babies and children are put into the mix. The belief that someone evil can turn their life around just through having a kid is asinine. All it does is give them a sense of control and affection while adding another helpless victim to their list. Regina was an abusive tyrant while mothering Henry for 11 years. Rumple was coming home to Bae with blood on his shoes. Children only make it worse because they give reasons to justify evil actions. "I was just trying to get to Bae!", "I don't have any regrets because it got me Henry!"

 

It bothers me especially because I've seen what situations like these can do in real life.

Edited April 17, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Dianthus]

So we were having a discussion over on the Ruby Slippers thread about the reaction in certain quarters (the fundies) to the relationship between Ruby and Dorothy. Evidently some of the worst elements on that side are going on about a same-sex couple "ruining" OUaT as a family show, never mind all the killing and torture and adultery. I read an article some time ago in EW examining the MPAA's rating system for movies, particularly when it comes to violence vs. sex. We seem as a culture to have a much higher tolerance for violence, whether in movies or TV shows, than we do for sex. The article certainly seemed to suggest this, by noting how much of one was tolerated in R rated movies vs. the other, and how much harder it is to get sex past the censors. It's such a shame to me, because sex is such a natural thing, and can be a really beautiful thing, whereas violence is unnatural (sorta) and ugly.

Of course, this is coming (ha-ha) from religious conservatives, people who think not 'naked = bad = cold', but 'naked = bad = shame.' These are also the same people who are going after the rights of LGBTQ folks and a woman's right to control her own body. You'd think people who claim to love God so much wouldn't be ashamed of the very bodies He gave them (according to their own beliefs).

 

For me, Spike was going against his vampire 'wiring' to do good things. Maybe it was mostly about getting his fight on in s4, but that changed over time as did he. Riley represented the elusive normal Buffy was always chasing, and that 'ship was pretty much doomed (Doomed?) to fail.

[KingOfHearts]

I've noticed the higher tolerance for violence over sex as well. Realistically, they're both things that can be portrayed in positive and negative ways. Violence can be a superhero saving lives, and sex can be a healthy, beautiful thing in a marriage. However, things like gang violence or adultery come with negative connotations. I think we should be aware and exposed to both the good and the bad (with a sensible mind), because both exist in real life. 

 

But here's Once's problem. It portrays things like adultery as dandy and murder as funny. It's not meant to be twisted, either. Mary Margaret, for example, is portrayed as an upright woman of purity. Since she's supposed to be this iconic hero of virtue, she's typically used as a mouthpiece for the show's moral lessons. (Lessons on hope, believing the best in others, etc.) Yet, later she condoned Regina sleeping with Robin with his wife in the next room. As much as the writers want to deny it, this show is attempting to teach the audience. That is just how fairy tales are structured. Adultery is okay as long as you really love someone and you're over your wife. #SnowWhiteSealOfApproval

 

(Please note my post had nothing to do with LGBT.)

Edited April 19, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Trepie]

For whatever reason TVLine has attracted the very dumbest homophobe who thinks "Adam and Eve" is a logical argument.  I think i read "Adam and Eve" more times yesterday on that board than I have in my entire life.

 

 

So we were having a discussion over on the Ruby Slippers thread about the reaction in certain quarters (the fundies) to the relationship between Ruby and Dorothy. Evidently some of the worst elements on that side are going on about a same-sex couple "ruining" OUaT as a family show, never mind all the killing and torture and adultery. I read an article some time ago in EW examining the MPAA's rating system for movies, particularly when it comes to violence vs. sex. We seem as a culture to have a much higher tolerance for violence, whether in movies or TV shows, than we do for sex. The article certainly seemed to suggest this, by noting how much of one was tolerated in R rated movies vs. the other, and how much harder it is to get sex past the censors. It's such a shame to me, because sex is such a natural thing, and can be a really beautiful thing, whereas violence is unnatural (sorta) and ugly.

Of course, this is coming (ha-ha) from religious conservatives, people who think not 'naked = bad = cold', but 'naked = bad = shame.' These are also the same people who are going after the rights of LGBTQ folks and a woman's right to control her own body. You'd think people who claim to love God so much wouldn't be ashamed of the very bodies He gave them (according to their own beliefs).

 

For me, Spike was going against his vampire 'wiring' to do good things. Maybe it was mostly about getting his fight on in s4, but that changed over time as did he. Riley represented the elusive normal Buffy was always chasing, and that 'ship was pretty much doomed (Doomed?) to fail.

 

I wonder if it's becaues people think that showing a lot of sex is going to influence minors more than violence?  With the homophobes I think it's pretty clear that a lot of them are terrified that their child is going to see a same sex couple on tv and be influenced to also act on same sex attraction.  It's okay to watch Regina murdering peasants because it's not something their precious child will want to do as well.  As a society in the US we seem to see an easy link between even a mention of sex and actually having sex, while we pretend violence on TV isn't going to influence us in real life.  

 

I don't usually frequent places with a lot of homophbic comments so it was jarring ot see so many people upset about a lesbian kiss on a show that often portrays really abusive situations as romantic love.

[profdanglais]

I have heard speculation that the US's puritanical traditions plus its glorification of violence (gun culture, Old West mythology, etc) is behind that, Dianthus. That seems plausible, if a bit simplified. It is certainly ironic that people don't mind their kids watching Hook kill his father, but two girls making out is a danger to their "family values". 

[tri4335]

Watch the documentary "This Film is Not Yet Rated" which gives a very good view on the MPAA movie rating system. It shows very clearly the standards of violence versus sex and then layers within sex - is it "normal" versus same sex versus fetish etc. I will warn you that the documentary is rated NC17 but it really has great insights.

[Camera One]

Mary Margaret, for example, is portrayed as an upright woman of purity.

 

The way she is portrayed in that case is that she's not truly an upright woman of purity.  The stress was that even she had committed adultery.  She was basically used by the Writers to show that no one should be able to judge Regina, not even saintly Mary Margaret.

[Dianthus]

I was thinking money too. Sex sells, but there's an entire branch of our federal gov't devoted to fighting with weapons. They need ships and planes to move the weapons around, and troops to wield them. Just look at the F35. It's a crappy plane (as I understand it) that the military doesn't even want, but the project is ongoing 'cuz it brings in the big $$$. Defense contractors make serious bank off our tax dollars.

[Shanna Marie]

I would say that this show may be less hypocritical than most in the "sex is bad, violence is okay" issue because they skim past violence just as much as they do actually depicting sex most of the time. Hook's bloody state was something we haven't seen the likes of before on the show, which has been mostly bloodless, and even there we didn't see anything actually happen to him other than Hades grabbing him by the hair. We didn't actually see the violence. The heart ripping and crushing are rather bloodless, with no blood shed, and the heart is a glowing crystal type thing. When it's crushed, the person just keels over. There are sword fights with no blood. We hear more about the village slaughters than we actually saw. We saw hardly any blood when Hook's hand was cut off and never saw the stump (compare to Jaime's hand being cut off on Game of Thrones).

 

With sex, they mostly just fade to black/the next scene, and then have the morning after scene, usually with only one person still in the bed and just a dent in the other pillow, and that's with the couples we know for sure are having sex. Otherwise they're pretty coy.

 

They don't seem to realize the ickiness of the other morality stuff, the implications behind the sex and violence. I still get the feeling that they don't understand why viewers call the situations with Graham and Robin rape, and we didn't really see it actually happen. It was just implied, or else we had to infer from the outcome (Zelena's pregnancy).

[DigitalCount]

I still remember how bizarre it looked when Ariel stabbed Regina in the neck with a forking fork. Lana sold it as well as she possibly could, but it was a neck stab with a fork that involved no blood at all. Couple that with the uncanny valley CGi sets and that scene still gives me the creeps.

[Mathius]

Yes, he helped Jack attack the giants, but Liam killed a boat full of men so that he could get a better job (keep in mind, he did not do it to save his brother, just so that they could get in the Navy. He could have saved everybody by sailing out of the storm which was the original plan).  He got to go to heaven, why not James?

 

OK, no.  You're assuming that "sailing out of the storm" would be an easy and likely successful thing to do, but it wouldn't. The storm was bad, and Liam looking at the map before Hades showed up shows that he has no clue how to navigate a ship (how could he, he's been a slave, not a sailor).  The choice was to risk his and his brother's life trying to escape the storm, or take a deal that guaranteed their survival and future.  Yes, it's terrible that the other men had to die and Liam regretted this, but keep in mind that he and Killian were slaves to this crew.  Liam had no obligation to them, but he did have obligation to his brother and was thinking of his well-being first and foremost.  Liam was no mass murderer, he was a mass manslaughterer (murder requires intent to kill, Liam's intent was for he and Killian to survive, Hades had the killing intent).  James, on the other hand, willfully and gleefully committed not only mass murder but genocide.  He also abandoned his lover/genocide partner to die while stealing treasure, without a shred of remorse.  He was flat-out evil.

 

For that matter, Henry Sr. (the other "but he got to go to Heaven, so why not James?") had the same thing happen to him that happened with Liam...he was about to go to Hell but fully accepted it as punishment because he regretted everything he had done wrong (with Henry, it was mainly the whole "didn't help Regina when Cora was abusing her" thing, since that directly led to all his other wrongdoings later given that they were all done for Evil Queen Regina in some way or other.)

 

If James goes to Heaven, it needs to be because he actually repents of what he did wrong like Henry Sr. and Liam did.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Mathius

[kili]

Yes, it's terrible that the other men had to die and Liam regretted this, but keep in mind that he and Killian were slaves to this crew. 

 

Liam and Killian were slaves to the Captain. We never learn what the status of the other crew members were. They could also have been slaves or desperate men.

 

The fact that those men quickly rallied around Liam likely means they did not consider him their slave. Why wouldn't one of them have tried to take charge if they considered him their possession?

 

Liam had no obligation to them, but he did have obligation to his brother and was thinking of his well-being first and foremost.

 

Liam most certainly did. As soon as he decided to take over as Captain, he is responsible for all the men on that ship.

 

Liam didn't just make a decision to risk these men's lives in an attempt to save his brother's life, he agreed to let them be killed.

 

Liam was no mass murderer, he was a mass manslaughterer (murder requires intent to kill, Liam's intent was for he and Killian to survive, Hades had the killing intent).

 

Liam is a mass murderer. Manslaughter is when you accidently kill people. He formed the intent. He accepted the deal. First degree murder is when you plan to kill somebody in advance. Second degree murder is when you intend to kill somebody, but don't plan it in advance. Manslaughter is when you didn't intend to kill somebody, but they die (the person could have wanted to stab another person, but not kill them. Or waved around a gun, but didn't intend to kill).

 

Liam purposefully drove that boat into the eye of the storm with the complete understanding that all those men would perish. He didn't do it just knowing it was dangerous, he knew they would die. He could have taken his chances with the storm, but he went for the sure thing and the job at the expense of those men's lives.

 

He made a choice to kill those men.

 

If James goes to Heaven, it needs to be because he actually repents of what he did wrong like Henry Sr. and Liam did.

 

Agreed. I hope that James is given the chance and that the writers let him take it. Let David get through to him. James is in many ways a victim of his parents who sold him for a better life. Did they even know what Rumpie was going to do to that baby?

[Mathius]

Liam is a mass murderer. Manslaughter is when you accidently kill people. He formed the intent. He accepted the deal. First degree murder is when you plan to kill somebody in advance. Second degree murder is when you intend to kill somebody, but don't plan it in advance. Manslaughter is when you didn't intend to kill somebody, but they die (the person could have wanted to stab another person, but not kill them. Or waved around a gun, but didn't intend to kill).

 

Wrong. Manslaughter is not accidental killing, it is killing "without deliberation, premeditation, and malice".  Liam didn't plan anything, he was literally JUST made that offer by Hades, who vanished before Liam gave any verbal acknowledgement of accepting the deal or not, and was caught in an imminent life-or-death situation with the storm at sea that Captain Silver had sailed them all into. He had to make a very fast choice, and he chose the one that was best for his brother.  At most, he's guilty of mass second-degree murder given that he didn't have the intention to kill the men until just a few minutes ago, that even then his intent was for him and his brother to survive rather than the men to die, and that it's not like he pushed them overboard or anything, the storm sank the ship and that's what killed them; Liam merely knew for a fact that he and Killian would wash up to shore alive while the others would not.  And even then, second-degree murder is a stretch given the lack of malicious intent. He was trying to save his brother, as he has always done.

 

Liam most certainly did. As soon as he decided to take over as Captain, he is responsible for all the men on that ship. Liam didn't just make a decision to risk these men's lives in an attempt to save his brother's life, he agreed to let them be killed.

 

Yeah, he agreed to let them be killed  in an attempt to save his brother's life.  If it was just "to get into the Navy", Liam would have taken the opportunity he had earlier with the papers, but he tore them up because he wasn't going to abandon Killian.  Yes, it was a bad choice that he regretted, but saying that somehow it's worth eternal damnation is veering into "Snow and Charming deserve damnation because they kidnapped Maleficent's baby". It was a bad deed not done with bad intentions but because Liam was a human being who was thinking of his brother whom he'd had to parent for years over a bunch of people he became responsible for only a few minutes ago.  That's not deserving of Hell.

 

James is in many ways a victim of his parents who sold him for a better life.

 

Sure, but that doesn't excuse what he chose to do with his life any more than any other villain with parental issues on this show. I'm sorry, I fail to see how "child slave who was forced into essentially the role of fatherhood for his little brother" is less sympathetic and deserving of Heaven than "spoiled prince who happily committed atrocities and now feels entitled to more while blaming his twin brother who had nothing to do with anything for what he lacks".  He's basically Zelena before the recent character development, I had no sympathy for her and I have no sympathy for James until he gives me reason to.  And the fact that he's currently shacking up with a born sociopathic murderer indicates he hasn't changed.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Mathius

[kili]

Liam merely knew for a fact that he and Killian would wash up to shore alive while the others would not. 

 

Liam was pretty trusting of some dude he just met.

 

And even then, second-degree murder is a stretch given the lack of malicious intent; Liam is the walking definition of "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions".

 

It is definitely second degree murder. You don't get to kill other people who aren't a threat just to improve somebody's chance at life. If Killian needed a heart transplant, would Liam be justified killing one of those men to get him a  new one? He decided that 30 men were worth killing to improve his brother's odds. He lied to those men to get them to help him continue to sail to their deaths.

 

I'm sorry, I fail to see how "child slave who was forced into essentially the role of fatherhood for his little brother" is less sympathetic and deserving of Heaven than "spoiled prince who happily committed atrocities and now feels entitled to more while blaming his twin brother who had nothing to do with anything for what he lacks".

 

I like Liam, but he did a horrible, terrible no-good thing. If he deserves redemption, I  think just about everybody deserves a shot. For a show that has given Rumple and Regina so many chances at redemption, I just don't think that James doesn't deserve a chance at redemption too.

 

James was used by King George. King George had no qualms about having James fight that giant that ultimately killed him. If he'd survived that, he would have been forced to fight a dragon that killed all of King George's other men and had probably run through quite a few of King Midas's men as well. He was raised to be who he was. He was sold into slavery just as much as Killian was. Sure, he had cushier arrangement, but his parents sold him and they didn't even know what would happen to him. His owner may have treated him like a son, but he was a commodity. David was right to ask if he would have ended up like James if his parents had switched who they sold. David may have a better heart than James, but even David would likely have been a bit of a jerk if he'd been raised by King George and treated as a tool to win money for the kingdom.

Edited April 20, 2016 by kili

[Mabinogia]

On this show, if you strike a deal to kill a bunch of people but you did it to save a loved one, that's not murder. (which is one of my biggest issues with this show, that anything done in the name of love is completely justified, it's not.) If Liam were a good person he wouldn't have sacrificed the lives of many for the life of one, no matter how much he loved that one. That's why I can't get behind Belle killing someone in an attempt to save her baby. Unless Gaston was actually threatening her child, it is just not justifyable to me. Nothing and I mean NOTHING Rumple has ever done has been justifiable to me. When he was doing all this horrible stuff in the name of Bae, he wasn't even really trying to save Bae's life, he just wanted to see him again. The fuck?

 

I honestly can't remember what James did. I know he was an ass, but I can't remember his body count or anything in particular. I do wonder, however, how much if it is that James was just the bad seed (though considering his parents pretty much sold their child, I'm thinking David might be the odd man out in that family) or that being raised by a King George made him worse than he would have been.

 

I do like the idea of redemption though. I just wish they were handling it better. I just feel like they try too hard to whitewash evil, telling us it's okay so long as the person did it for love. Personally, if I were say Killian, I would be furious at my brother for sacrificing so many for me. The guilt would destroy me. I would never want another person, let alone many, murdered to save my life. Not unless it was because they were trying to kill me.

[YaddaYadda]

I honestly can't remember what James did.

 

James killed the giants, Anton/Tiny's family. He killed, pillages and plundered, left Jacqueline to die up there even after she begged him to help her. 

 

Liam, I went from sort of liking the character to hating the character. If Gaston was such a horrific person because of what he did to the ogre who was scouting for the ogre army so that they could invade the kingdom, then Liam is beyond that because he let people die. And he made his decision after Hades mentioned how he would get his dream, so he wasn't trying to be completely selfless.

 

I've rewatched that episode on fastforward, because Liam is a douche. 

 

I am willing to bet that Killian wouldn't have taken that deal, especially since we saw him turn Hades down in 5x14.

Edited April 20, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Mathius]

If Gaston was such a horrific person because of what he did to the ogre who was scouting for the ogre army so that they could invade the kingdom

Gaston wasn't such a horrific person for that, at all, but that's a whole other issue.

 

And he made his decision after Hades mentioned how he would get his dream, so he wasn't trying to be completely selfless.

 

Again, if getting his dream mattered that much, he would have abandoned Killian to pursue it earlier on.  The whole scene with him tearing up the papers was to prove that his brother meant everything to him, and Hades' temptation was more about him and Killian entering the Navy and thus Killian turning his life around from the depressed alcoholic he previously was.  It's the same reason Liam lied to him afterward rather than come clean, because Killian seeing Liam as a hero helped him turn his life around.  That Liam isn't just Killian's brother but also his surrogate father is being overlooked here, Liam pretty much raised Killian and was in charge of his well-being, that kind of pressure for someone who wasn't that much older himself would lead to him taking that kind of deal.  What Liam did was wrong, but it wasn't this poorly-motivated unpardonable sin that people are making it out to be, you can see where he was coming from. Again I say that if we're condemning Liam for that, we oughta start condemning the Charmings for their eggnapping.

 

Personally, if I were say Killian, I would be furious at my brother for sacrificing so many for me. The guilt would destroy me. I would never want another person, let alone many, murdered to save my life. Not unless it was because they were trying to kill me.

 

Given that Killian still feels uncomfortable with Emma and her family risking themselves to save him, he almost certainly is furious about it.  Just because he still loves and forgives his brother doesn't mean he thinks what he did was all right.

 

That's why I can't get behind Belle killing someone in an attempt to save her baby. Unless Gaston was actually threatening her child, it is just not justifyable to me.

 

Actually, Belle did it to save Rumple, not her baby.  That just makes it completely unjustifiable, even she realizes this. 

 

Nothing and I mean NOTHING Rumple has ever done has been justifiable to me.

 

I think a few things were, but they are veeeeery few and far between.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Mathius

[Curio]

I can absolutely see why Liam took Hades's deal. It doesn't make his actions any better, but if I was given the option between a fate where I 100% knew my child would live versus a fate where there was a high probably my child would die, I'd probably take Option 1. In both cases, there was also a very good chance all the sailors would have died no matter what, so in Liam's mind, he was choosing the best outcome where at least there would be two survivors instead of none. Sure, there might have been a crazy chance where everyone survived if he turned down Hades's offer and tried to outrun the storm, but why risk that when you're given freedom on a platter and you can save the person you love most in the world? The crew might have trusted Liam in those final moments, but I never sensed that Liam and Killian were particularly close to the crew, especially if they didn't try to stop Silver from getting Killian drunk the day before.

[YaddaYadda]

I think that if Liam gets a pass on what he's done on the account that he was protecting his brother, and he wanted better for both of them, then Belle a pass on what she's done as well.

 

Belle was visited by Hades. Hades actually threatened her child directly. And she pushed Gaston the River of Lost Souls to protect Rumple. It's not the outcome she wanted though. 

 

Belle's actions are no different from Liam's actions, plus they both walk around like they have the moral high ground, with their judgey mcjudgier holier than thou attitude when they're none of that. 

 

The difference between the two right now is that Liam showed some remorse, while Belle regretted her actions because her baby isn't off the hook.

[Mabinogia]

The difference between the two right now is that Liam showed some remorse, while Belle regretted her actions because her baby isn't off the hook.

 

It would have been interesting to see how she felt if it had worked and her baby was no longer in danger. I don't think she'd be regretting it like she is now. She just regrets that she wasted her big killing moment and didn't get the result she wanted.

 

Sadly for dear Liam, if your name isn't in the main credits, you don't get a pass. He should have found his "true love" so he could be shuttled off to the forest with Robin instead of pushed into the river of no return (until the heroes free all the souls from said river because, well, they are heroes and need to do stuff like saving souls so we all forget all the terrible things they've done to save their loved ones. lol) Alas, since he isn't a frequently recurring character he will not be redeemed unless they decide they want Killian to look good by forgiving him.

[kili]

Sadly for dear Liam, if your name isn't in the main credits, you don't get a pass. He should have found his "true love" so he could be shuttled off to the forest with Robin instead of pushed into the river of no return (until the heroes free all the souls from said river because, well, they are heroes and need to do stuff like saving souls so we all forget all the terrible things they've done to save their loved ones. lol) Alas, since he isn't a frequently recurring character he will not be redeemed unless they decide they want Killian to look good by forgiving him.

 

Liam got to go to heaven in a row boat. He's all redeemed.

 

Even his victims jumped on board.