The Writers of OUAT: Because, Um, Magic, That's Why

[Shanna Marie]

4 minutes ago, Camera One said:

How could "The Stable Boy" have been already planned if Snow tells Charming that The Evil Queen targeted her because she was prettier in "Snow Falls"?

I think the "prettier" line was to tie it into the original fairy tale and to hide the real story that they were trying to build up to. I never really got the impression that Snow was sincere about it. She said it kind of snarkily. It would have ruined the "surprise" of "The Stable Boy" if we'd known all along the reason, but Snow would have known the reason. Or would she? She didn't learn until later -- the apple, wasn't it? -- that Daniel had died and that Regina held her responsible. When Regina sent her with Graham to murder her and Snow wrote her apology note, I don't think she knew the real reason, so she still wouldn't have in "Snow Falls." When was it that she said it was because she ruined Regina's life and admitted that she did? It's all blurring. Anyway, I think the line was mostly the writers being "clever" with the callback to the fairy tale and not wanting to give away the real reason, so they had Snow say something that was actually insincere but that we wouldn't know was insincere because we'd accept it from the fairy tale. It was probably meant to be more evidence of what a terrible brat Snow was.

[Camera One]

12 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

When was it that she said it was because she ruined Regina's life and admitted that she did? It's all blurring. 

That was also "Snow Falls".

Never mind.  I mis-remembered.  The "prettier" line was from the pilot.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

 It would have ruined the "surprise" of "The Stable Boy" if we'd known all along the reason

I can't remember which episode it was, but in one of the earlier episodes of S1, someone flat-out says that Snow was the cause of Regina's boyfriend's death. Upon rewatch I noticed it and thought they exposed more of the "twist" than I thought they would have. Someone is bound to find it if not me.

Edited April 28, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Inquirer]

9 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I can't remember which episode it was, but in one of the earlier episodes of S1, someone flat-out says that Snow was the cause of Regina's boyfriend's death. Upon rewatch I noticed it and thought they exposed more of the "twist" than I thought they would have. Someone is bound to find it if not me.

No, that wasn't ever said in any S1 episode prior to "The Stable Boy".  What was said, in "The Heart is a Lonely Hunter", by Regina was that "I told her a secret that she couldn't keep", so we already knew that a breach in trust around a secret was part of why Regina hates Snow.  What we didn't know, of course, was why Snow told the secret - she was manipulated by a master manipulator and she wanted to help Regina, not out of any malice.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Inquirer

[RedKeep]

11 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I can't remember which episode it was, but in one of the earlier episodes of S1, someone flat-out says that Snow was the cause of Regina's boyfriend's death.

I think it wasn't quite flat-out, but I remember a line of dialogue between Regina and Maleficent in episode 2 that heavily hinted at what would then be explored in The Stable Boy, yes.

[KingOfHearts]

I remember both of those instances, and I still recall a third time.

[Tiger]

14 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I think the "prettier" line was to tie it into the original fairy tale and to hide the real story that they were trying to build up to. I never really got the impression that Snow was sincere about it. She said it kind of snarkily. It would have ruined the "surprise" of "The Stable Boy" if we'd known all along the reason, but Snow would have known the reason. Or would she? She didn't learn until later -- the apple, wasn't it? -- that Daniel had died and that Regina held her responsible. When Regina sent her with Graham to murder her and Snow wrote her apology note, I don't think she knew the real reason, so she still wouldn't have in "Snow Falls." When was it that she said it was because she ruined Regina's life and admitted that she did? It's all blurring. Anyway, I think the line was mostly the writers being "clever" with the callback to the fairy tale and not wanting to give away the real reason, so they had Snow say something that was actually insincere but that we wouldn't know was insincere because we'd accept it from the fairy tale. It was probably meant to be more evidence of what a terrible brat Snow was.

While they needed something with more depth than 'im prettier than her', it didnt matter whether the Daniel reveal had been episode 2 or 22 as its completely fucking ridiculous that Gina blamed Snow in the firat place for what CORA did.  Snow was a child who was manipulated by Cora.  Also, Cora actually killed him.  Gina blamed the wrong person.

[tennisgurl]

I'm pretty positive that Snow knew by wedding time why Regina was so pissed off, and the "I'm prettier than her" line was, in universe, Snow being snarky, and out of universe, a reference to the fairy tale. I get why they wanted to give Regina a more human motivation for hating Snow and being evil, but I think it would be interesting to have a few villains that run on fairy tale logic. It would be fun to see how modern storytelling conventions would handle the strange rules and motivations of old time fairy tales.

Like I said, I'm pretty sure Snow has known for awhile why Regina hated her, but it would be pretty hilarious is she didn't. Like, until she arrested her and almost executed her, she truly had no idea what the hell Regina's problem was. Then, when she's in jail, Regina goes into this whole evil monologue about how little Snow told Cora her secret and how she was the worst person ever and ruined her life just to be a dick, blah blah blah, and Snow has absolutely no idea what she's talking about. Like, she doesn't at all remember this seemingly random conversation she had as a little kid, and when she finally does, she's just like "that's it? That's seriously what this has all been about?!?!" That would have been amazing.

[Shanna Marie]

5 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Like I said, I'm pretty sure Snow has known for awhile why Regina hated her, but it would be pretty hilarious is she didn't. Like, until she arrested her and almost executed her, she truly had no idea what the hell Regina's problem was.

I don't think she learned the full story until just before the war. She didn't know Daniel was dead. She'd been told that Daniel left and Regina changed her mind about marrying Leopold. As I recall, it all came as a shock when Regina coerced her into eating the apple. Up to that point, she knew that Regina believed Snow had ruined her life, but she seemed a bit baffled as to why. Did she think she was the reason Daniel went away? As for the "prettier," while the trigger for Regina's hatred was Daniel's death, she also tended to blame Snow for everything she was unhappy about, and she really hated that people liked Snow more than her, which could roughly fall into a "prettier" category, if you're going by "pretty is as pretty does."

Given the way these guys write, they may very well have planned it all out, but they were more concerned with creating a certain impact at that point in the story than with any kind of coherence or continuity. And I maintain that they did it wrong and there was an easy fix if they wanted Snow to actually be in any way culpable and Regina to be in any way justified. But they started it one way and flipped when it turned into the St. Regina the Victim Who Always Gets the Short End of the Stick show, which was not what season one established.

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

Given the way these guys write, they may very well have planned it all out, but they were more concerned with creating a certain impact at that point in the story than with any kind of coherence or continuity. And I maintain that they did it wrong and there was an easy fix if they wanted Snow to actually be in any way culpable and Regina to be in any way justified. But they started it one way and flipped when it turned into the St. Regina the Victim Who Always Gets the Short End of the Stick show, which was not what season one established.

Probably to their regret. They were sure they laid down enough track for the audience to see that Snow was a horrible brat and Regina was the most sympathetic, tragic victim there ever was. They easily could have written the scene that way little Snow saw Regina with another man when she was engaged to her father, she really liked Regina and naturally hurt. They could have easily had Snow tell Cora so she'd get to keep Regina as her new mother but still not knowing that Cora would kill him. Instead they show Cora manipulating Snow who clearly is uncomfortable and trying to protect Regina but has no idea who she's dealing with. She's just a little girl who just lost her mother and truly believed every word Cora said. She also truly believed she was helping Regina end up with Daniel and keep her mother. For that Snow gets targeted her entire life, her father murdered, her kingdom stole, everything that happened to her. She really didn't deserve any of it. Regina knew what her mother was like Snow didn't. Regina knew Cora killed Daniel, she did so right in front of her. But Snow still got the blame. She still gets the blame even after Regina learned Cora murdered Snow's mother and everything was part of her plan for Regina to be Queen.

[Camera One]

3 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Probably to their regret. They were sure they laid down enough track for the audience to see that Snow was a horrible brat and Regina was the most sympathetic, tragic victim there ever was. They easily could have written the scene that way little Snow saw Regina with another man when she was engaged to her father, she really liked Regina and naturally hurt. They could have easily had Snow tell Cora so she'd get to keep Regina as her new mother but still not knowing that Cora would kill him. Instead they show Cora manipulating Snow who clearly is uncomfortable and trying to protect Regina but has no idea who she's dealing with. She's just a little girl who just lost her mother and truly believed every word Cora said. She also truly believed she was helping Regina end up with Daniel and keep her mother. For that Snow gets targeted her entire life, her father murdered, her kingdom stole, everything that happened to her. She really didn't deserve any of it. Regina knew what her mother was like Snow didn't. Regina knew Cora killed Daniel, she did so right in front of her. But Snow still got the blame. She still gets the blame even after Regina learned Cora murdered Snow's mother and everything was part of her plan for Regina to be Queen.

This is similar to what Eva did to Cora.   What an evil meanie she was.  

Edited April 29, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

The writers setup these no-win arcs, then choose the weirdest ways out of them. For example, no one could expect any good to come out of the Marian debacle. It could only be solved in one of three options - Robin chooses Marian over Regina, Robin dumps the mother of his child for her murderer, or Marian dies. None of those sounded appealing. But then - wouldn't you know it - the writers chose all three at different times, then ended up with a fourth option. Zelena was Marian the whole time! Take the Evil Queen split for another example. There were two possible outcomes - either Regina could have accepted and reabsorbed herself, or destroyed her lesser half altogether. What do the writers do? They teach Regina to love herself, and then they let the Evil Queen live happily ever after with Wish!Robin. 

The main issue is these resolutions are entirely disconnected from the setups. Zelena had nothing to do with Outlaw Queen, and the Evil Queen conflict had no relevance to a potential Robin AU whatsoever. It's all so contrived. There's nothing logical about it. Twists and turns need to make sense.

Edited April 29, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

10 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

The main issue is these resolutions are entirely disconnected from the setups.

It's that old Alien Vampire Bunnies issue -- spend the entire arc setting something up, then resolve it with something entirely unrelated that comes out of nowhere, and never really address all the stuff that was set up.

The Evil Queen resolution doesn't even really deal with the initial issue that set it off: They came up with the plan to split Regina's evil side off because Regina was unhappy being good. It had nothing to do with needing to love herself. She wasn't feeling guilt over her bad deeds and full of self loathing. She hated having to be good, hated not being able to just rip out Hook's throat when he got to come back to life and Robin didn't. She was miserable being good. The idea was that if she got rid of the evil side, she'd get rid of the part of her that hated doing good. I don't see how blending the hearts fixes that. Regina accepting her evil side as part of her doesn't address her unhappiness with being good. We never had any clue from her as to whether she was happier without her evil side -- was she still unhappy being good, or was she able to learn to enjoy it? I could kind of buy the resolution if she learned to be happy with doing good, and she was able to retain that after the heart blend and give some of that to her evil counterpart, but they never said anything about that. Basically, we got an arc about a narcissist learning to love herself even more. But, really, I doubt there was ever any actual story planned with the arc. It was just an excuse to get lots of fun, sassy, snarky Evil Queen in fabulous costumes.

[Inquirer]

28 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

They came up with the plan to split Regina's evil side off because Regina was unhappy being good. It had nothing to do with needing to love herself. She wasn't feeling guilt over her bad deeds and full of self loathing. She hated having to be good, hated not being able to just rip out Hook's throat when he got to come back to life and Robin didn't. She was miserable being good. The idea was that if she got rid of the evil side, she'd get rid of the part of her that hated doing good.

That was part of it, but a bigger reason was for Regina to be free from her bad karma...which clearly backfired since bad things still happened to Regina afterward, and her evil side that was supposed to now get all the bad karma instead got a Happily Ever After with Robin in the Wish Realm.

[jhlipton]

On 4/28/2017 at 2:20 PM, Tiger said:

Gina blamed the wrong person.

But that never happens!!!!

[Rumsy4]

10 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Basically, we got an arc about a narcissist learning to love herself even more.

Yeah. I never bought the idea that Regina secretly hated herself deep down, and she projected that outside by murdering and raping other people. Regina has always loved herself the most. 

[Shanna Marie]

10 hours ago, Inquirer said:

That was part of it, but a bigger reason was for Regina to be free from her bad karma...which clearly backfired since bad things still happened to Regina afterward, and her evil side that was supposed to now get all the bad karma instead got a Happily Ever After with Robin in the Wish Realm.

It's interesting that they don't seem to have considered that another way to be free of her bad karma might be to apologize to the people she hurt and try to make amends to them, like, say, giving back all those hearts, or at least doing something nice. And it's interesting and ironic that they followed the storyline that stemmed from Emma suggesting that Regina split herself to stop the bad karma with a storyline in which Emma broke off her engagement to Hook because he wanted to magically erase the memory of one bad deed he did that was haunting him and instead she wanted him to face David with the truth. They really have no consistent ethos in their world.

[Rumsy4]

This quote is from the Musical Q&A. Not linking here, but it's in the Spoiler's Only thread.

Quote

Q. What is your planning process like for OUAT?

Adam: Our what?

Moderator: Your planning process.

Eddy: You know, I think we need one. (Audience laughs)

Truer than they meant to convey. And we already know that a large part of their planning consists of "Wouldn't be cool if..." ;-)

[RulerofallIsurvey]

34 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

This quote is from the Musical Q&A. Not linking here, but it's in the Spoiler's Only thread.

Truer than they meant to convey. And we already know that a large part of their planning consists of "Wouldn't be cool if..." ;-)

(Audience laughs)<<--to keep from crying no doubt.  

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

And we already know that a large part of their planning consists of "Wouldn't be cool if..." ;-)

And with that strategy, you can win any war!

[Camera One]

It's not funny when it's not a joke.

[Camera One]

A&E: "Every year, we have a mini-camp... this year... we knew it would be Emma's wedding."  

If that were actually true, their pacing and "planning" of arcs is just horrific.  Instead of thinking about what emotional progressions the characters would need to go through before they were ready for this monumental step, they decided to do 6A of Emma keeping the secret that she was fated to die, which was quickly resolved with Hook moving in to the house.  And then in 6B, they decided to do Hook keeping the secret that he killed Charming's father, leading to misunderstanding as he is banished by Gideon, and then he returns and the engagement is back on.  Then for the finale, Emma is fated to die - again, but now they think it has been averted.  Throw in an episode in 6A of Henry hating Hook, and an episode in 6B of David hating Hook, before Hook wins them both over.  It's like they come up with the same storylines and then just plug different characters in, or reverse the situation and press replay.

Edited May 7, 2017 by Camera One

[Curio]

If they knew they were building up to Emma's wedding, then I really don't understand what in the world they were trying to accomplish with the Emma/Pinocchio episode. 

[Camera One]

18 minutes ago, Curio said:

If they knew they were building up to Emma's wedding, then I really don't understand what in the world they were trying to accomplish with the Emma/Pinocchio episode. 

BFF friendship, you know.

[Kktjones]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

A&E: "Every year, we have a mini-camp... this year... we knew it would be Emma's wedding."  

Wow - if that's true they utterly failed at planning. The Captain Swan relationship season was just "lie/confess>get separated/reunite" on repeat for 17 episodes. It felt like virtually no build-up to the engagement at all and very little to the wedding itself. I guess since they knew they were getting married they felt fine keeping them separated in different realms for 6 episodes so far this season? They basically gave them one episode with no secrets and no separation (6x18) to show how happy and in love they are. I'm excited for the wedding, but the season leading up to it should have been SO much better!

[Camera One]

Basically, the Writers' "planning" is always... how do we stall and keep the characters separated and/or in turmoil until the last-minute insta-happy ending/reunion/reconciliation which doesn't need to be built up or earned.

[Curio]

I feel bad saying this since I'm sure Adam and Eddy are lovely people to hang out with in real life, but if the show is cancelled and Jennifer's exit is a huge factor in that decision, they deserve what's coming to them. A&E dug their grave when they wrote the Season 5 finale and decided to make Season 6 mostly about Regina and the Evil Queen. You look at the screen time for each character in Season 6 and Regina by far has the most screen time. The issue is that Regina isn't the heart of the show and she never was going to be. A&E made the decision to revert Emma back to full-on walls mode in 6A, they're the ones who decided to turn Emma into a meek princess who couldn't stand up for herself in the weird AU, they're the ones who decided not to give Captain Swan much screen time even though they knew they were building up to a wedding... If A&E were at all surprised Jennifer didn't want to continue onto a Season 7, they only have themselves to blame. They put a lot of eggs into the Regina basket this season and it didn't pay off.

[Kktjones]

@Curio if I could give your post 100 likes, I would. I am completely baffled at what A&E thought they were doing with this season (really the last 3 seasons, but this one especially). My only thought is that they learned Jen wanted out early on and that's why they decided to sideline her so much. The screen time chart is very telling in that while Regina has BY FAR the most minutes, Hook is second is screen time for 6B. So they are leaning heavily on those two characters, possibly b/c they are the two returning next season. While I did grin like a loon during the wedding dance last night, I can say that, for me, this season has been a complete failure. I don't even hate Regina as much as some here do, but there was nothing to like this entire season. I really don't care one way or another about a Season 7. I don't want to say I hope they cancel it b/c a lot of people would lose their jobs, but I highly doubt I will be watching...

[Rumsy4]

19 minutes ago, Curio said:

If A&E were at all surprised Jennifer didn't want to continue onto a Season 7, they only have themselves to blame. They put a lot of eggs into the Regina basket this season and it didn't pay off.

100% agree. I'm blaming A&E for this shitty season, and not giving Jen a reason to continue. 

[asabovesobelow]

I don't think we can necessarily say that Regina's heavier presence is the reason for the ratings decline and/or Jen's departure. I love Lana/Regina/EQ, but I thought the entire storyline of this season sucked. I also blame A&E - this season is a plethora of fails. 

I did say earlier that I would still be in for a Season 7 at this point, but I have to amend that. If it takes place in the wish-realm, I am so far the fuck out I'll be selling walking sticks in Agrabah.

[Inquirer]

21 hours ago, Kktjones said:

Wow - if that's true they utterly failed at planning. The Captain Swan relationship season was just "lie/confess>get separated/reunite" on repeat for 17 episodes. It felt like virtually no build-up to the engagement at all and very little to the wedding itself. I guess since they knew they were getting married they felt fine keeping them separated in different realms for 6 episodes so far this season? They basically gave them one episode with no secrets and no separation (6x18) to show how happy and in love they are. I'm excited for the wedding, but the season leading up to it should have been SO much better!

They didn't even build up to the wedding much in the wedding episode itself!  Most of it was a musical in flashbacks and the typical "run around searching for a magical way to stop the Big Bad" in the present.  Heaven forbid they spend a whole episode just based around the characters preparing for a wedding and then having it, because where's the "drama" in that?  A&E are truly some of the worst television writers EVER.

Quote

I love Lana/Regina/EQ, but I thought the entire storyline of this season sucked. I also blame A&E - this season is a plethora of fails. 

Agreed.  Nobody, Regina fans included, has been satisfied with this season.  It's been bad for every character and every fan.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Inquirer

[Shanna Marie]

21 hours ago, Camera One said:

Basically, the Writers' "planning" is always... how do we stall and keep the characters separated and/or in turmoil until the last-minute insta-happy ending/reunion/reconciliation which doesn't need to be built up or earned.

That's the problem with the writing in general. They spin wheels instead of building up, then resolve things at the last second without laying the groundwork. There's so much potential in this series that the writers don't even seem to notice. The finished product comes across like a first draft that hasn't been revised in order to dig deeper, to fix continuity, or to ensure that it flows logically. It doesn't seem like there's any discussion or debate in the writers' room. Surely out of that whole team there's someone who would have pointed out such problems as the Black Fairy having absolutely no reason to want to kill Emma. We're beyond the fear of spoilers here. It's not being treated as a mystery to be solved. All the characters are just taking it as a given without any curiosity whatsoever. And either no one raised a hand to say, "Um, but why does she want to kill Emma?" or else they did and the showrunners disregarded them entirely.

There's also a vast disconnect between the show the writers seem to think they're writing and the show that's on our TV screens. They keep repeating that the show is about hope, and yet the characters are kept under a black cloud of doom non-stop. Since 4B Emma has been the target of someone who wanted to turn her evil, was possessed by evil, was in the Underworld after she had to kill the love of her life, and has been under a death sentence. Emma has yet to have a truly happy moment with Hook that hasn't been tainted by some bit of darkness. Their first kiss was ruined by Regina's "you ruined my life" temper tantrum, their first date was tainted by the "evil hand," she became the Dark One right after she said "I love you," their physical reunion after his death was interrupted by Hyde's airship, their engagement was ruined by the revelation of Hook's past, their second engagement was ruined by the discovery of her doomed fate, and their wedding was ruined by the Black Fairy's curse. True, a show about happy people being happy would be boring, but there can be moments of pure joy that aren't instantly ruined. I think that lack of joy is the main reason for the falling ratings. It started out as a fun, quirky show, but it started taking itself too seriously, and did so without owning that this was what it was doing. If they were going to do a dark, serious look at fairy tale characters, then go for it, but acting like they're doing a fun, quirky, fairy tale show about hope and happy endings while miring it in depression and gloom, with no hope for the main character (and while constantly going on about villains not get happy endings while writing the main good-guy character as being doomed from birth), you just get a depressing mess that people tuned out on.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

They keep repeating that the show is about hope, and yet the characters are kept under a black cloud of doom non-stop.

The final minute of the musical episode highlighted this. Everyone was happy, then oh no! Curse #5. Why should they see it as a "happy beginning" when there's constantly things trying to kill them? Do the characters no longer feel pain or fear?

Edited May 8, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

1 minute ago, KingOfHearts said:

The final minute of the musical episode highlighted this. Everyone was happy, then oh no! Curse #5. Why should they see it as a "happy beginning" when there's constantly things trying to kill them? Do the characters no longer feel pain or fear?

And why were they even shocked? They knew it was going to happen. They were doing the "Happy Beginning" song when they knew that before it was done, the black fairy dust was going to hit. Emma didn't defeat the Black Fairy or prevent the Final Battle. All she did was unfreeze her family and friends and keep her heart. The Black Fairy just poofed away to mwa-ha-ha another day, with the black fairy dust still in the clock tower, set to go off at 6. Maybe they should have done something about that instead of having a wedding?

[Curio]

Maybe they thought that if everyone in town sang together at the same time, that would be enough positive energy to defeat the Black Fairy's curse? Wasn't that kind of the whole point of the episode? The musical spell was created so that the power of singing goodness could defeat evil, and yet when everyone sung at the end, it wasn't enough to defeat evil. 

But, ya know, this show is about happiness and hope.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Curio

[Camera One]

4 hours ago, Curio said:

Maybe they thought that if everyone in town sang together at the same time, that would be enough positive energy to defeat the Black Fairy's curse? Wasn't that kind of the whole point of the episode? The musical spell was created so that the power of singing goodness could defeat evil, and yet when everyone sung at the end, it wasn't enough to defeat evil. 

Why were they all singing at the wedding anyway?  It doesn't seem like they were using it to ward off the Black Fairy's evil.  If it was just for fun, they *did* know everyone could die at 6pm, right?

[scenicbyway]

7 hours ago, Curio said:

I feel bad saying this since I'm sure Adam and Eddy are lovely people to hang out with in real life, but if the show is cancelled and Jennifer's exit is a huge factor in that decision, they deserve what's coming to them. A&E dug their grave when they wrote the Season 5 finale and decided to make Season 6 mostly about Regina and the Evil Queen. You look at the screen time for each character in Season 6 and Regina by far has the most screen time. The issue is that Regina isn't the heart of the show and she never was going to be. A&E made the decision to revert Emma back to full-on walls mode in 6A, they're the ones who decided to turn Emma into a meek princess who couldn't stand up for herself in the weird AU, they're the ones who decided not to give Captain Swan much screen time even though they knew they were building up to a wedding... If A&E were at all surprised Jennifer didn't want to continue onto a Season 7, they only have themselves to blame. They put a lot of eggs into the Regina basket this season and it didn't pay off.

I'm no Regina fan but I'm not convinced that Jen didn't ask for reduced screen time to work on other projects and be in LA more this season. Josh and Ginny just had another baby so if Jen wanted time off, who were they supposed to fill the void with?  Aladin? It was always going to be Regina or Rumple as the other mains who would share the load.

It sucks, I could've watched a whole season of Captain Swan and Snowing but the actors (not Colin) had other creative commitments. And it looks like Jen wants to pursue new endeavors rather than commit another 9 months to Once.

[Camera One]

Even if the actors asked for more time off, my problem has always been the poor use of their limited screentime, eg. Snow in 3B.  They chose to have Snow/Zelena/orange juice for 3 episodes instead of Snow/Emma.

35 minutes ago, AshhyOut said:

Pretty obvious ABC told A&E the show wasn't viable anymore at their price point and A&E decided to pitch a cheaper show instead of ending up at the unemployed line. Not that I blame A&E either cause who wants to be unemployed?

I do blame A&E, because knowing that certain original characters may be gone, they chose to risk extending the show with newbies instead of using the time to do a proper final half-season in 6B and honoring the characters with their final arc.  

They also knew who the reboot would exclude, and yet they've made little to no effort of using those characters more meaningfully in 6B.  This doesn't show they care about these characters.  It means they couldn't care less.  It's not the first time either.  They knew Robin was going in Season 5 but hardly used him.  They knew Neal was going in Season 3 but hardly used him.

Edited May 9, 2017 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

I think some of the problem is that they really don't have the creativity to extend beyond one character trait. The stories and ideas they come up with big picture are wonderful, but they get lost when it comes to the minutiae because instead of expanding or growing the characters, they try to shove them into their character box and fit that box into the story. Snow has hope, Emma has walls, Hook has revenge/remorse, Zelena has envy, Belle sticks to Rumpel's good heart, etc. Thus, we have what should be an interesting compelling story and it gets bogged down in repetitious nonsense.

[Camera One]

7 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

Snow has hope

And with Snow, they're not even consistent with that.  In this latest (musical) episode, once again, we began with:

DAVID: Snow, Snow, it's going to be okay.
SNOW: No, Charming, it's NOT!  You heard Rumple.  There is nothing we can do to stop the Evil Queen.
DAVID: I promise you we will find a way...

At this point, the show can write on autopilot.  Minus the singing, and insert MacGuffin of the Week, and we've seen this plotline a hundred times before.

[Shanna Marie]

Although Jen was very diplomatic in the way she phrased her departure message and praised the writing, I can also see how the writing might have been a reason she was ready to move on, and not because of screen time. She seems to be really involved in the craft of acting, the whole creative process behind it, and if that's an actor's joy, then a long-term series is always going to be an issue unless there's a lot of fun stuff to play with. On this series, she keeps being given the same few notes to play. Her character has flaws to overcome, but they're the same few flaws and the same process of overcoming. I would guess that season 5 was probably the beginning of the end for her. Remember all the research she did during the hiatus, before she got any of the scripts? She dug into fairy tales about swans, fairy tales about dark characters, etc. And then none of that meant anything with the scripts she got. Worse, the writing undermined all her efforts, since they didn't tell her what was really going on. In the early parts of the season, it did look like in her interactions with Hook she was trying to play the dark fairy tale stuff when she was trying to get him to accept him as she was and lure him to join her, and she was talking about the power and confidence she had. Then, surprise! It turned out that she wasn't really that dark and was just playing a game to keep him from figuring out what was going on before she could save him. That must have been incredibly frustrating.

And then there's that black cloud. If it's depressing for us, it must be hundreds of times worse for the actor playing it. She sounds like she's pretty Method in digging into the character's emotions by digging into her own past and finding comparisons and relating that to the character, really internalizing it all. For about three seasons, almost all she's had to play has been very dark and negative. She's had to spend three years digging into her worst experiences and biggest fears in order to play anger at her parents, enough fear and anger to kill, watching the death of someone she loves (repeatedly), killing someone she loves (she said that was a very emotionally wrenching scene to play), having to say good-bye to someone she loves, facing her own death, facing the possible end of a relationship, etc. There have been very few good, happy moments, and the darkness hasn't had any kind of catharsis to it because she doesn't get to be evil enough to really have fun camping it up, and she hasn't had any real triumphant moments of success because she's always been on the sidelines in the final fight. And during these years of emotional misery, she's had to go home alone in a place that doesn't feel like "home" and be away from her family and friends. Her friends locally are all from work, so they don't help to detach her from that stuff. There's a reason actors get really screwed up if they don't have good coping mechanisms, and it's smart to get out of a role that might be that draining.

[Inquirer]

Further proof of A&E's utter lack of self-awareness:

Quote

HOROWITZ: Do we ever not do hope?

[Souris]

20 minutes ago, Inquirer said:

Further proof of A&E's utter lack of self-awareness:

Sometimes I think they write the show in one universe, but we see it in some other, bizarro universe, because what they describe is never what is on our screens.

[KingOfHearts]

One of the biggest writing problems with the show is that characters are either too broadly attributed, or two-dimensionally narrow. Most of the main characters have to fulfill at least two contradicting roles in order for the plot to function. Emma, Regina, Rumple, and Snow all fall into this category. When they do something out of character, it's always without a solid reason. Emma totally giving up on Hook in 6B, for example. Oftentimes, the writers are attempting to paint a caricature at the expense of logical storytelling. They want the Evil Queen, but they also need Redeemable!Regina to prove her worth as a viable protagonist. Their work is frequently flawed at the planning stages, not always in the execution. By design, Regina's status as a main character makes no sense.

The secondary category is a form of flanderization. The unfortunate souls with this stigma include Belle, Charming, Robin, and Henry. You'll notice that whenever they briefly receive any form of free will, their decision backfires. Henry wanted to destroy magic. Belle wanted to use Rumple to stop the Snow Queen. Their ideas are always cast out by other characters, and the majority of their time is spent supporting them. Their main objective is propping up the others.

There are two characters that come dangerously close to both these issues, but manage not to splash in: Hook and Zelena. They're focused, but also believably complex. They do act as cheerleaders sometimes, but they do have the gift of making their own choices from time to time. IMO, they are written with the least amount of flaws. There's problems, sure, but not as many compared to the rest.      

[Inquirer]

6 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

There are two characters that come dangerously close to both these issues, but manage not to splash in: Hook and Zelena. They're focused, but also believably complex. They do act as cheerleaders sometimes, but they do have the gift of making their own choices from time to time. IMO, they are written with the least amount of flaws. There's problems, sure, but not as many compared to the rest.      

I agree.  Hook has always had a lot of fans here, but I also think that the past two seasons has done wonders for Zelena, who was a pretty weak character in 3B and 4B.  As I always say, her transition to being on the good guys' side is essentially how Regina's should have been written.

[Camera One]

I think it's a case of "in betweens".  A&E love Regina and Rumple too much, so they overuse them and alternate evil with woobification, ultimately destroying the characters.  A&E couldn't care less about the boring Wallemma or Snoozing, so they get to spin their wheels with occasional retcons of damaging proportions.  Hook and Zelena are the happy medium.  A&E think they're fun, but they get second billing.  They get the redemption without constantly going back to zany evil.   As Inquirer said, Hook and Zelena are basically how Rumple and Regina should have progressed.

[Souris]

I think A&E basically sacrificed S6 for a possible S7. They knew going in that the contracts were up for all the original cast members. I would bet they also knew going in that Gosh wouldn't be back -- and that Jen was unlikely to return. Instead of saying, "OK, let's wrap this up this season and end with the whole cast," they wanted to keep going. So they sidelined Emma, CS and Snowing even more to get fans used to that, and pushed Regina to the forefront even more, knowing that Lana was probably the most likely to return. ABC was probably more cautious, hence wanting A&E to pitch a possible S7 to them. Hook's three-ep adventures with all the guest stars were essentially A&E showing ABC what it could be, a version of a backdoor pilot.

A&E wanted to keep going more than they wanted to do right by the fans and the characters with a satisfactory closure.

[Rumsy4]

I think you hit the nail, @Souris. This perfectly explains the bizzare writing decisions of the season. 

[Camera One]

It's incredibly selfish of them.  Yes, I know it's their show, but Emma and Snowing fans who loyally gave them the viewership for six years are going to leave with very little satisfaction.  I'm not holding my breath that two episodes will make up for three and a half seasons of neglect, including this sixth season, when A&E knew full well Gosh and possibly Jennifer Morrison would be tossed out like last week's trash.  In fact, I'm guessing this Sunday's episode will barely attempt to use them in a meaningful way, except a hug at the end.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Inquirer said:

I agree.  Hook has always had a lot of fans here, but I also think that the past two seasons has done wonders for Zelena, who was a pretty weak character in 3B and 4B.  As I always say, her transition to being on the good guys' side is essentially how Regina's should have been written.

Zelena gained some self-awareness in 5A, and that was pivotal to making her character sympathetic or enjoyable. It's crazy how much adding awareness of character flaws, even from other characters, can make a character go from unwatchable to likable. 

While I love both Hook and Zelena, I don't think I'd want them in a spinoff or reboot season together. You'd have to start from scratch on their relationship. They have a few similarities, such as being abandoned as children, dedicating their lives to destroying another person, and redeeming themselves as villains. But who doesn't have those kinds of attributes on this show? Viewers would start shipping them, and that would be gross to me. I want the best for both of them, but on separate paths.

Edited May 11, 2017 by KingOfHearts