The Writers of OUAT: Because, Um, Magic, That's Why

[PixiePaws1]

What I saw on screen in 6a makes me think A&E have completely mentally disengaged and only take notice of the eps they're contractually obligated to deliver. It wouldn't surprise me if they write plot points on raffle tickets and whatever they draw out is what they throw through the slot in the writing room door...that's why there's an utter lack of narrative cohesion.

[YaddaYadda]

11 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

This makes me so angry at their hypocrisy. On Twitter, Adam claims that the EQ's wish clashed with Emma's wish to make her cowardly. But in interviews, he and Eddy talk as though this was a real exploration of how Emma's life would have turned out without the Curse, and how much she needed teaching a lesson. Anyway, in the episode, Emma thanked Regina becasue the wish-version of her "sucked". I just can't even with these two jokers.

We have seen Jane's and Adam's tweets and how different their answers were. Jane said it wasn't a real world and Adam said it was a real world, and contradictions went on that way.

A&E or someone else in the writing room came up with how to bring back Robin, and that's where the idea began and ended. 

"Wouldn't it be cool if Regina crushed Snowing's hearts, because they're not real, so who cares?"

That whole concept was so very bad! The way they went about it, imo, makes Regina's actions completely indefensible. When you can crush someone's heart out of anger, but make yourself feel better by saying they're not real, all the while refusing the hurt the son who shouldn't be real either and missing the only way home because of the dead lover who isn't real either...yeah, they really didn't think about much beyond, let's create a wish-realm where Emma is singing "someday my prince will come" while picking flowers, and let's knight Henry because he is Henry, and Violet's father was an old meanie to him back in 5x05 when he made fun of the whole writer thing, how dare he!

This whole universe that they created was Regina's wet dream. Instead of casting the dark curse, she should have found a magic lamp.

[maryle]

A and E. lost totally the little bit of credibility with me there.

I was prepared to not liking the final but journalist and A and E talked how we will be seeing Emma's life and her family without the curse so I did gain interest. That aspect solely with the captain charming bit was why I wanted to watched the final.

But, soon I realized this thing is nothing like a cannon alt if the curse was not...A and E. Knows it! the media know it! 

Since, everyone called it and still do the wishworld they just use the normal curiosity about Emma, the Charming, the EF life without curse for doing their twist EQ fantasy. 

Now, I am supposedly to believe them for the cs big adventure!

[Camera One]

Pearls of Wisdom from Adam for comic relief this weekend.

Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA  4 hours ago

@ButtercupOUAT @Sandraodc my advice? If you like the show, try going spoiler free. You may like it more!

Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA  4 hours ago

@DelphineWriting @YueSimpson I love that. We design the show so there are little clues hidden

Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA  4 hours ago

@ButtercupOUAT @Sandraodc but noone has full picture of what we're planning but me & eddy. So you're trying solve a puzzle w/out all pieces

----------

Not sure exactly what this is in response to (previous replies are not loading), but Adam is being pretty direct with whoever these people are.

Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA  4 hours ago

@FordMiss @ButtercupOUAT so what ? You don't know what we're shooting or planning

[Souris]

He's deleted those tweets, of course. He also said that 6b is "challenging" to write, but deleted that, too. Uh-oh, adjective of death! He & Eddy aren't up to any kind of writing challenge.

I believe the people he was talking to were talking about there not being any CS adventure together or something of the sort.

[Camera One]

4 minutes ago, Souris said:

He also said that 6b is "challenging" to write, but deleted that, too. Uh-oh, adjective of death! 

Wow, he actually admitted that something was challenging?  No wonder he deleted it. 

And whose fault is that... they're the ones who set up the idiotic premise for 6B.

Edited January 8, 2017 by Camera One

[Souris]

2 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Wow, he actually admitted that something was challenging?  No wonder he deleted it. 

And whose fault is that... they're the ones who set up the idiotic premise for 6B.

Someone asked him to sum up writing 6B in one word & that was his reply.

I did wonder if it's challenging because ABC told him S6 is it, no S7. It would be challenging to wrap it all up in a few eps. But, yeah, not up to the challenge!

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

I did wonder if it's challenging because ABC told him S6 is it, no S7. It would be challenging to wrap it all up in a few eps. But, yeah, not up to the challenge!

Jane said the most challenging episode for her to write was Bleeding Through. That doesn't instill much confidence.

Quote

@ButtercupOUAT @Sandraodc my advice? If you like the show, try going spoiler free. You may like it more!

A&E act like spoilers are different from the show's execution, but that just isn't so. In 3B, when Regina's white magic leaked, they implored us to believe it was out of context. But, lo and behold, it was just as contrived in the episode. In the S5 finale and 6A, the spoilers made no sense and we just had to assume we were missing pieces. But then - what a shock - it didn't make sense on air either! 

Quote

but noone has full picture of what we're planning but me & eddy. So you're trying solve a puzzle w/out all pieces

A&E have no "full picture". Their plans constantly change. It's been evident for a while that there is no long term plan.

[Camera One]

I did wonder if it's challenging because ABC told him S6 is it, no S7. It would be challenging to wrap it all up in a few eps.

Yeah, that was my first thought too.  I hope not, but it would be a challenge to wrap up all these pointless storylines that lack potential to allow time for an actual satisfying finale.

[Souris]

1 minute ago, KingOfHearts said:

Jane said the most challenging episode for her to write was Bleeding Through. That doesn't instill much confidence.

She did say it was challenging because they changed the story in the middle of her writing it (such great planning WTF!). So as awful as the ep was, I can see why that would make it challenging.

Edited January 8, 2017 by Souris

[Rumsy4]

28 minutes ago, Camera One said:

And whose fault is that... they're the ones who set up the idiotic premise for 6B.

Lbr, is there are several idiotic premises, but nothing one can highlight as the central theme. There's Emma's savior-shakes, Evil Cobra, and Gideon, but there's no unifying theme. It's like 2B, but messier. They need a pair of magic shears to cut the gordian knot ot plots, and borrow Henry's magic quill to finish the arc while they are sleeping.

Edited January 8, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

And then Adam argued with someone about how Writers don't ship, and it's something that fans do, along with the semantics of whether writers "create" ships or not.  As usual, he needs to learn to stop engaging.  What a pointless conversation.  Isn't there some script he could think more about instead?

Edited January 8, 2017 by Camera One

[RadioGirl27]

15 hours ago, Souris said:

I did wonder if it's challenging because ABC told him S6 is it, no S7. It would be challenging to wrap it all up in a few eps. But, yeah, not up to the challenge!

I don't know if this is the last season or not (probably yes, but who knows), but it really doesn't matter. Season 6 is so bad and the different storylines make so little sense that Shakespeare would find it challenging to write something watchable that makes sense, imagine A&E.

Adam was trying to convince some CS shippers disappointed with the last spoilers to keep watching because they don't know what it has been filmed or whatever. But really, if your actors are not even in the same country at the same time, it's difficult for them to film together.

Edited January 8, 2017 by RadioGirl27

[tennisgurl]

I am constantly on the verge of unfollowing all the writers, especially A & E, on all possible social media, because everything they say is just absolutely ridiculous, but I never do, because I tend to get a strange level of amusement in watching them try to cover their asses for their terrible writing choices. Its almost fascinating seeing the leaps and bounds they make to justify their terrible writing and character choices. I almost want to write a paper about them. 

[maryle]

Well, I have been burned for the last time with Adam this week.

So, I am done try to defense them. 

 I read on a  very level headed blogger that Adam was mostly in self  defense mode to CS (CS epic adventure) and snowing fans( snowing year) . I found interesting that she imply that CS will have a real reason to complain if after the season there was no CS adventure at all. Because he was so clairly promoting it.

I agree logically CS should at some point have a adventure together because of the proposal storyline and Adam keep imply it

Yea, I totally believe that 6b could be challenging there 4 main plot that don't go together or even can oppose each other. The Emma, Gideon, BF and rumbelle can become problematic if Emma is just passive because rumbelle need the storyline.

Emma's fate as Savior link to Aladdin and Gideon.  

There Regina unfinished storyline that mix with her new storyline OQ.

The infamous year of snowing and the darker Charming resolution.

The proposal storyline for CS beginning at the start of 6b. That do require CS to spend on screen time together 

 We know that by EP.15 all the storyline in some capacity are still at play. Very little time to finish them all.

It will be a mess!!! 

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, maryle said:

That do require CS to spend on screen time together

Sure--a two minute CS scene at the season finale after a two-hour epic Swan Queen adventure. 

[Camera One]

Adam seems really frustrated at all the speculation, but he doesn't seem to learn the lesson that replying in such a defensive way is counterproductive.  Clearly, the fans think that these Writers will fold when pressured, so they keep on hounding and they aren't afraid of biting the hand that feeds.  I don't think this is good for the writing.  The Writers already know the various passionate fandoms out there, and though it's not enough for each of the fandoms, it does seem like they spend more time making sure they cater to each of them, than they do creating a coherent theme for each half season.  At the end of the day, the pairing the Writers enjoy writing the most - SQ - is going to get more screentime (they got 2 full episodes in 6A).  However, the Chicken Little contingent on Twitter should be cognizant that the Writers did allot at least one quality one-on-one conversation between Emma and Hook in most of the episodes in 6A, and in both halves of Season 5.  It shows the Writers do care about CS to some extent, at least.  Emma wasn't getting happy home moments with Hook, but she was talking to him about the Savior stuff and her feelings on a regular basis.  Compare that to the last sustained and deeper (by that, I mean more than 30 seconds) one-on-one conversation Emma had with Snow, which was in 3A.   That's what an ignored character pairing *really* looks like.  To me, it wasn't a bad thing for Hook to get an episode with Belle, and an episode with Henry, and some screentime with Charming.

Edited January 8, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Sure--a two minute CS scene at the season finale after a two-hour epic Swan Queen adventure. 

This is what happens when you overcompensate for the "underdog". Swan Queen is more fun to write than Captain Swan because they have more nuance. In S5, the writers decided to go for the more traditional epic romance with CS. Now they're boring to them since they are a "happy couple no one wants to watch". SQ just has more perks, such as:

* Emma gets more opportunities to be the punching bag.
* It falls in line with the writers' main source of feedback - Twitter.
* It's more fun of a challenge to write a platonic pairing that does everything short of romance while also keeping shippers hopeful.
* Regina. Duh.

Edited January 8, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

It's interesting how the Writers seem to have the same pattern for each relationship they write, and they rarely deviate from it.  With Emma/Regina, Emma tends to be "the listener" while Regina is the "brutally honest" one.  It even became literal in "Wish You Were Here", where Regina had to be brutal to break Emma out of her denial of who she was.  The "wish" was like magical walls.  They certainly have a skill of writing the exact same thing with different wrapping.

Edited January 8, 2017 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

I was looking for something else today and was reminded of Pixar's Rules for Storytelling. I particularly like #21:

Quote

You gotta identify with your situation/characters, can’t just write ‘cool’. What would make YOU act that way?

I wonder, would these writers become best buds with someone who'd spent decades torturing them and trying to kill them? Split their good and bad sides of their personalities? Ditch a loved one who nearly died/died and came back from the dead to console a friend?

Would it be trolling to tweet this link to them with a "maybe this will help you, love, your audience" note?

[KingOfHearts]

Also, #2:

Quote

You gotta keep in mind what’s interesting to you as an audience, not what’s fun to do as a writer. They can be very different.

I'm sure Regina is a blast to write for, as are Rumple and the Big Bads. I'm sure it's fun to throw Mulan, Red Riding Hood and Merida in a room together. However, that doesn't translate well to the audience and the ratings show.

[Camera One]

#19 is a good one... "Coincidences to get characters into trouble are great; coincidences to get them out of it are cheating."  Though A&E actually does both.

A&E does take #37 to heart - "Come up with your ENDING before you figure out your middle.  Seriously.  Endings are hard.  Get yours working up front." 

[Shanna Marie]

6 minutes ago, Camera One said:

A&E does take #37 to heart - "Come up with your ENDING before you figure out your middle.  Seriously.  Endings are hard.  Get yours working up front." 

Sometimes. Sometimes I'm not sure they have a real idea of where they're going, and then when they need to wrap it up, that's when random magical objects start appearing. I got the feeling the Rumple plot in 4A was like that, where they started out with "cool" ideas like the sorcerer's apprentice and Mickey's hat, and maybe he could use it for a spell, and he could use Hook's heart, but they had no idea how they were going to resolve it (in spite of having laid down a superhighway of bread crumbs that could have provided ways), so at the last minute they threw in the random gauntlet to allow Belle to stop it. That's also probably why they repeated the same scene in just about every episode. Once they got the plot started, they had no idea what to do with it, and they had to let it run out until the arc finale.

They need a happy medium between "stuff happens, and then they get to the result we want" and "here's something cool, but now we don't know where we're going with it." When they know the ending up front, they don't bother with the middle.

[Camera One]

Maybe it's not the "ending" per se they come up with but a twist near the end.  I think that has been the case for most of the arcs.  In 3B, they likely started with the "twist" that Snow enacted the Dark Curse and that they would end with a time travel "There's no place like home" adventure.  With 5A, it's obvious they came up with the Dark Hook twist first.  With 4B, the twist that Lily was Maleficent's baby and Snowing/Emma together ruining her life was clearly planned from the start, along with the Author writing an Alt story they would need to get out of.

With the case of 4A or 5B, it's less clear, and almost like they came up with a cliffhanger for the next arc without thinking through what they planned to do or how to lead up to it.  The cliffhanger for 4A being Rumple being kicked out to NYC and finding The Queens of Darkness, and the cliffhanger for 5B being Regina splitting herself into two.  Both of these cliffhangers led to a mess of storylines that didn't connect with one another.

Edited January 10, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

The Wish Realm is a very "original" idea. Pocket universes are not new, but a world created via genie wish with its own set of rules does not follow cliches very well. The Wish Realm borrows elements from time travel and alternate universes, but it doesn't execute them consistently. It's full of broken rules.

Let's assume for a moment everyone in the Wish Realm is fake, like holograms. If that is the case, there needs to be something that proves their not real. We shouldn't have to go by Regina's dialogue alone. However, you can't conclude the people aren't real, because the world is real.  There's never been a law of magic saying life couldn't be created, just that the dead couldn't be resurrected. The characters in it have personalities and free will. Are they just soulless? If so, that is extremely confusing because there's no discernible difference in the eyes of the viewer.

The writers did not spend enough time explaining how their Wish Realm works. It's way too contrived of a concept for the audience to simply accept that its "real" but the people are "fake" except possibly Robin because reasons. I don't get why it's okay to kill off Snowing but Henry is just off limits. Gotta keep it PG because he's still a minor I guess? Or, you know. REC. The entire Wish Realm starts to make sense when you wrap it all around the REC.

Edited January 10, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Plus if everyone is fake, why should we care to spend any more time there? There are no rules, so one character (they choose to bring on) could exist in this world, while another character (they don't care about) would not exist.  The timeline for some people have stayed the same, while the timeline for other people have changed drastically.  We're not supposed to care about Snowing dying.  But we're supposed to care about Robin Hood appearing?  Writers can't dictate viewers to see one aspect of the show one way, and another aspect of the show another way.

Edited January 10, 2017 by Camera One

[Free]

14 hours ago, Camera One said:

Plus if everyone is fake, why should we care to spend any more time there? There are no rules, so one character (they choose to bring on) could exist in this world, while another character (they don't care about) would not exist.  The timeline for some people have stayed the same, while the timeline for other people have changed drastically.  We're not supposed to care about Snowing dying.  But we're supposed to care about Robin Hood appearing?  Writers can't dictate viewers to see one aspect of the show one way, and another aspect of the show another way.

Exactly, they aren't even doing anything interesting with the characters either.

[Camera One]

Adam deleted all his tweets from Saturday, and there were a lot of them.

[Rumsy4]

Lol. Why does he keep doing this??

[Free]

34 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Adam deleted all his tweets from Saturday, and there were a lot of them.

 

24 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Lol. Why does he keep doing this??

He must like being messy on Twitter, this keeps happening again and again.

[Camera One]

If it's any consolation, Adam is telling people on twitter to Relax.

[Free]

9 hours ago, Camera One said:

If it's any consolation, Adam is telling people on twitter to Relax.

Adam says a lot on twitter, so it's kinda hard to take him seriously.

[KingOfHearts]

S6 is the first season where it seems like the writers have no idea where they're going or what they're doing. Even though 4B was horrible, you could still tell the writers were chugging along toward something. They still had energy, even though at times they were just throwing things at the screen to see what stuck. Even in 2B, Neverland was always in the plans. In S6, nothing is heading anywhere. Hooded!Gideon is the catch-all big twist to encompass the first arc. That was what it all led up to. Everything else is just perpetually on ice. The setup for 6B is a character that will inevitably die anyway. For the first time, it really does seem like the whole cast and crew are running on fumes.

[Souris]

As I just saw pointed out, A&E knew the cast's contracts were up this season and this may be the final season -- but they've wasted this season so far on crap and double Reginas. Instead of working to end things, they've meandered about and squandered all sorts of storylines. CS moving in together, engagement, wedding? There's no time to do any of it properly.

A&E SUCK.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Souris

[Hookian]

Hopefully they get a S7 to wrap everything up without rushing it.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Hookian

[KingOfHearts]

12 minutes ago, Souris said:

As I just saw pointed out, A&E knew the cast's contracts were up this season and this may be the final season -- but they've wasted this season so far on crap and double Reginas. Instead of working to end things, they've meandered about and squandered all sorts of storylines. CS moving in together, engagement, wedding? There's no time to do any of it properly.

A&E SUCK.

I'm not even that upset about CS. I'm disappointed that what could be the final season has such weak storylines. Even though Lost's final season sucked so hard, at least the writers had it planned and knew what they wanted to do with it. (Back in like S2/S3 of the show, mind you.) I really don't buy that A&E have ideas for "future seasons" when S6 was so obviously thrown together last minute. They're so out of creativity that I don't know what S7 would even be about. You can't stick some random franchise on it.

[Rumsy4]

It does seem bizzare that A&E are wasting what they knew was potentially the last season because of actor contracts. OTOH, it's also possible that they were too confident of renewal, and assumed the actors wouldn't all leave when their contracts came up for renegotiation. Based on their egos, the latter scenario seems more probable. 

It's obvious that the writers only had storylines planned for 5 seasons. They're just throwing things at the wall hoping something will stick now. Strangely enough, the only arc that seems planned out in some detail is for Rumbelle, and that's probably because it's a redo of the Peter Pan storyline.

[Free]

6 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

It does seem bizzare that A&E are wasting what they knew was potentially the last season because of actor contracts. OTOH, it's also possible that they were too confident of renewal, and assumed the actors wouldn't all leave when their contracts came up for renegotiation. Based on their egos, the latter scenario seems more probable. 

It's obvious that the writers only had storylines planned for 5 seasons. They're just throwing things at the wall hoping something will stick now. Strangely enough, the only arc that seems planned out in some detail is for Rumbelle, and that's probably because it's a redo of the Peter Pan storyline.

I'm not really sure there was much of a plan beyond a plot layout and having arcs take up half a season between S3-5 and then continue throwing everything in S6.

[KAOS Agent]

I think the reason the Rumbelle story is the only thing that's remotely cohesive for the season is because the writers were well aware that Carlyle was leaving at the end of the season. I suspect that Emilie is aware she's likely done at the end of the season as well. Since they know that they have to conclude that character's story, they aren't limited with trying to drag things out any longer. It's also telling that they have a new, cheap Rumpel related villain in Gideon who could become the new Dark One should the show be renewed. Confirmation of contract status has greatly clarified what's happening with this storyline.

[Hookian]

36 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

I think the reason the Rumbelle story is the only thing that's remotely cohesive for the season is because the writers were well aware that Carlyle was leaving at the end of the season. I suspect that Emilie is aware she's likely done at the end of the season as well. Since they know that they have to conclude that character's story, they aren't limited with trying to drag things out any longer. It's also telling that they have a new, cheap Rumpel related villain in Gideon who could become the new Dark One should the show be renewed. Confirmation of contract status has greatly clarified what's happening with this storyline.

I would love if the finale ends with a new savior coming to town and it would be CS's daughter from the future. A portal would open up and everything. That would be awesome. I love the theory on Tumblr about that.

Gideon the new DO, CS's future child as the new savior.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Gideon the new DO, CS's future child as the new savior.

Or it's actually Snowflake, who gets kidnapped by Gideon and taken to the Dark Realm. Throw Pistachio and Henry in there too.

Edited January 12, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[PixiePaws1]

4 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Or it's actually Snowflake, who gets kidnapped by Gideon and taken to the Dark Realm. Throw Pistachio and Henry in there too.

Just as long as Henry stays there...!

[Souris]

With A&E's love of "shocking twists," any next-generation setup would probably have a CS child as evil and Gideon as good.

[Hookian]

45 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Or it's actually Snowflake, who gets kidnapped by Gideon and taken to the Dark Realm. Throw Pistachio and Henry in there too.

I think they would want it to be a girl and it would make sense if it was Emma's daughter over Snowing's other son. Especially if Gideon is bad.

[Camera One]

7 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I really don't buy that A&E have ideas for "future seasons" when S6 was so obviously thrown together last minute. They're so out of creativity that I don't know what S7 would even be about. You can't stick some random franchise on it.

 

6 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

 it's also possible that they were too confident of renewal, and assumed the actors wouldn't all leave when their contracts came up for renegotiation. Based on their egos, the latter scenario seems more probable. 

I think it's the over-confidence issue.  Everyone loves The Evil Queen... 2 Regina's, double the fun, right?  They would honestly believe that.

And I do think A&E have a twist they're holding back for the final season which they didn't want to use yet... now keep in mind, they probably ONLY have the twist and nothing else elaborated, which is what is being forced out of them now.  They know the ending - Regina is happy, everyone supports Regina, Emma puts down her walls for the last time, Hook beats himself up for the last time, etc.  They just don't know/don't care how they get there.  I can't even think of anything for Henry, Snow and David... that's how spotty their characterizations are.

There is also a possibility that the Wish Realm was something they were planning for the final season, and they had to move it up.  I had expected them to copy "Lost" and do a "what if" flashsideways and that would have been Emma growing up in the Enchanted Forest without a Curse.

Edited January 13, 2017 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

25 minutes ago, Camera One said:

And I do think A&E have a twist they're holding back for the final season which they didn't want to use yet... now keep in mind, they probably ONLY have the twist and nothing else elaborated, which is what is being forced out of them now.  

Hah! Absolutely.

[RadioGirl27]

10 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

 it's also possible that they were too confident of renewal, and assumed the actors wouldn't all leave when their contracts came up for renegotiation. Based on their egos, the latter scenario seems more probable. 

This, absolutely. I'm pretty sure they thought that two Reginas were enough to keep the audience and that the renewal was something sure, and now they don't understand what's going on. 

At this  point, I want the show both canceled and renewed. I want it to die with dignity but I also want to see how far A&E can fall. 

[Proteus]

7 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

I think the reason the Rumbelle story is the only thing that's remotely cohesive for the season is because the writers were well aware that Carlyle was leaving at the end of the season. I suspect that Emilie is aware she's likely done at the end of the season as well. Since they know that they have to conclude that character's story, they aren't limited with trying to drag things out any longer. It's also telling that they have a new, cheap Rumpel related villain in Gideon who could become the new Dark One should the show be renewed. Confirmation of contract status has greatly clarified what's happening with this storyline.

Has RC flat out said he's leaving?

[Souris]

2 minutes ago, Proteus said:

Has RC flat out said he's leaving?

He told a UK newspaper that it's "time to pack up and move home."

[Proteus]

Ok, I saw that. I was just wondering. Thanks.