The Writers of OUAT: Because, Um, Magic, That's Why

[Dani-Ellie]

Rumple's motive may not have been "villainous," but he turned the symbol of their engagement into a deception. He essentially said to Belle, "Here, I'm going to show you how much I trust you by giving you this thing" while lying to her because he didn't actually give her the thing. He gave her a fake. So he didn't trust her, at least not enough that he'd part with the thing he said he was parting with.

 

And Rumple made that fake dagger the symbol of a marriage, a union between two people based upon love and trust and commitment. It'd be like telling his fiancee he bought her a five-carat diamond when all she really got is a big cubic zirconia. The thing in and of itself isn't important; the sentiment attached to the thing is. And Rumple's attaching this love and trust kind of sentiment to a thing that is in and of itself a deception. When he's telling her the thing is something it isn't, I don't see why the leap of, "Well, does he really mean what he's saying now because he's lied to her throughout this entire conversation?" was such a surprising one to the writers.

Edited December 17, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Faemonic]

I don't see why the leap of, "Well, does he really mean what he's saying now because he's lied to her throughout this entire conversation?" was such a surprising one to the writers.

I guess that the graveyard confession, plus imitating the iconic dance with the yellow gown and the bright blue tailcoat, was supposed to be the "D'aww...Rumple!" moment...and then the "You'll get over Emma just like you got over Milah" was supposed to be the, "Nooo don't remind us that he's evil!" moment...and then the walking him over the town line was supposed to be a "D'aww...Rumple!" moment.

 

But maybe I'm just not the target audience because I had walked the plank off the HMS Rumbelle after Hook told Belle about Milah and Belle was just like, "Nooneenooo..."

[Dani-Ellie]

Yeah, I'm not the target audience, either, I guess. The graveside confession did nothing for me because again, his words may have been the right words, but his actions prior to and following the words flew in the face of them. Twisting the metaphorical knife in Hook's heart by bringing up Milah while he's once again magically restraining the man from saving a woman he loves was evil and frankly was just more evidence to that fact. And going over the town line? Just desserts. That's the kind of thing that happens when you try to have everything, dearie.

[Joanh23]

Between the not so great ratings and the fact that they managed to piss off a lot of captainswan shippers with this episode, I hope they've got some good Emma/Hook scenes in 4x12 & 4x13 or after this week I wouldn't be surprised if they'll suddenly decide to add some scenes in. ..

[Faemonic]

 after this week I wouldn't be surprised if they'll suddenly decide to add some scenes in. ..

 

I would be very surprised if those scenes had any quality of emotional resonance, if the writers think that all CS Shippers want is 40 minutes of kissing and not actual character dynamics that develop with events.

[RadioGirl27]

Between the not so great ratings and the fact that they managed to piss off a lot of captainswan shippers with this episode, I hope they've got some good Emma/Hook scenes in 4x12 & 4x13 or after this week I wouldn't be surprised if they'll suddenly decide to add some scenes in. ..

Nah, the writers don't see what they did wrong with Hook, Emma and their relationship in the winter finale. They think that the shippers are disapponted because the kiss was short, not because the episode lacked emotional resonance after all the build up. They even said so in an interview. So no, I don't expect them to change anything.

[Joanh23]

I know you guys are probably right but it annoys the hell out of me. It's been mentioned already but I agree that Eddys comment about having Hook & Emma kissing for 40mins was so condescending to the fans - it's similar to his comments about having Emma & Snow standing around doing laundry in S2 when someone dared criticise the lack of scenes between Emma & her parents. Someone needs to tell him he's not being funny when he says them. I always prefer Adam in their interviews.

[ShadowFacts]

 

I would be very surprised if those scenes had any quality of emotional resonance, if the writers think that all CS Shippers want is 40 minutes of kissing and not actual character dynamics that develop with events.

 

My current theory is that sometimes the writers just don't care about such things as character dynamics (most times), and sometimes they know exactly what they are doing.  With Emma and Killian, I think they want to drag things out so as not to make them a happy, normal-ish couple because that probably bores them and they don't want that to happen until closer to the end of the series. 

 

As to Regina and Robin, I honestly think A&E get a really big kick out of having open adultery involving a helplessly frozen victim on the air on Sunday night on a Disney-affiliated network.  They like to be naughty, naughty boys. 

[YaddaYadda]

 

I would be very surprised if those scenes had any quality of emotional resonance, if the writers think that all CS Shippers want is 40 minutes of kissing and not actual character dynamics that develop with events.

This is like the single comment that really pissed me off because this is what they think most viewers want and I'm not even talking about just CS.  I mean OQ shippers, don't they actually want to see their couple be deeper than a tattoo and fairy dust?  I'm sure they think it's enough for OQ fans to know the couple is meant to be and I don't think it's enough, not that I'm advocating having them on my screen more because I really can't stand them.

 

A kiss, even if it's a 40 minutes kiss doesn't solve anything at the end of the day.  It puts a band aid on the greater issue and I'm sure their comment had a lot to do with a lot of people expecting CS to jump in bed after what happened and since OQ got that, then damn it CS should have that too.  

 

I'll settle for good storytelling with implications of whatever, but I want a story that runs deeper where I'm like wow, so that happened and that was said and it was just wow and I just can't get enough because the story is just great and they're doing an amazing job telling it for Emma and Hook, for Emma and her parents...even for Emma and Regina since they insist on throwing them together (because for 405 reminded me of the girl in high school who isn't so popular and wants to be friends with the popular girl who is basically a bully and the not so popular girl takes the abuse because she really just wants them to be friends).  

 

So sex between two consenting adults who care deeply about each other and haven't jumped in the sack for the sake of jumping in the sack even though there's great mutual physical attraction (I know no punctuation) wouldn't be the worst thing on the show or for family hour, but please don't take away the conversation because it's important and the show has been lost in plot points for far too long.  And making comments about a couple making out for 40 mins as though it fixes everything is wrong.  Because that's not what people (at least on this board) are upset about.  I think everyone is pretty satisfied with the kiss, I think everyone is unhappy that it was a 26 seconds "resolution" that was being built into so much more than that.

 

Then again, I feel completely shallow discussing this after the horrors that took place in the world this week, so...Adam and Eddie, bugger off, will you?!?

Edited December 17, 2014 by YaddaYadda

[Dani-Ellie]

I think everyone is pretty satisfied with the kiss, I think everyone is unhappy that it was a 26 seconds "resolution" that was being built into so much more than that.

 

These complaints come up again and again and again and these guys never learn. Their response to people complaining about the lack of the Charming Family delving into their issues: "Of course they love each other. No one wants to see them washing dishes." Their response to people complaining about the seeming wedge between Snow and Emma: "What?! No! Of course Snow loves her! Isn't it obvious?!" Their response to the criticism of their handling of Regina: "But she's changed so much!! Why can't you see that?!" And now their response to this. They simply don't have the slightest clue that the complaints are coming from a place of fans being frustrated with their abject refusal to deal with the emotional gold-mines they themselves have created with their own story.

 

This is why I'm tired, and this is why I'm giving up being angry. Because they don't. get. it. And they're not going to get it. This is just the latest issue in a whole slew of them where the writing has completely and totally dropped the ball and turned something that should have been amazing into something that just pissed people off. The writing on this show is never going to have the depth we want to see because the two people running the show see no reason why it should. I could fly out to LA, track Adam and Eddy down, and be all, "Do you two have any idea the story opprtunities you've completely squandered?" but I honestly don't think it would make a bit of difference.

 

And you know what? This is their vision. This is what they want to do with this show, and that's fine. I don't agree with it and I will continue to weep for the untapped potential in this show but that's fine. I'm just tired of being angry about it. I'll just rely on the fans to tell the story I want to see with fix-it fic.

[Mari]

A&E have said that Rumple was not acting out of a villainous motive.

That is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a while. What, exactly, is a "villainous" motive?

[YaddaYadda]

A&E write things and put things on screen and then say the complete opposite.  We should be used to this by now.  Actually, I found a lot of irony is Rumple not wanting to be controlled by the dagger and then taking someone's heart and torturing them by controlling their actions.  And then we have the flashbacks of Rumple in the EF seeking the hat, using Anna to open the box and so on...his motives were villainous alright!

[Mari]

I'm not trying to justify what any of the Bads did; Evil Queen Regina, Rumple, Zelena, Pan, Cora, Ingrid.... They all are or were serious villains who did villainous things. However, a good writer recognizes that while the villain may be acting out of a place of hurt or confusion, the actions or possibly the person, are still evil.

Well written villains rarely strut around believing they're villains, and even when she was declaring herself the evil queen, Regina didn't seem to believe she was actually evil--she was going for what she saw as justice and her due. So, what, exactly would qualify as a "villainous" motive? Because slaughtering that village because she was hurting doesn't make it any less villainous, just like Rumple hatting all the fairies isnt less villainous just because he was trying to keep his power and be dagger free.

So, when they say villainous or non villainous motive, what are the writers trying to say? Because I'm boggled.

[Souris]

Between the not so great ratings and the fact that they managed to piss off a lot of captainswan shippers with this episode, I hope they've got some good Emma/Hook scenes in 4x12 & 4x13 or after this week I wouldn't be surprised if they'll suddenly decide to add some scenes in. ..

 

 

Nah, the writers don't see what they did wrong with Hook, Emma and their relationship in the winter finale. They think that the shippers are disapponted because the kiss was short, not because the episode lacked emotional resonance after all the build up. They even said so in an interview. So no, I don't expect them to change anything.

 

I don't expect anything to change, either. The show has the same problems over and over, and they don't learn or want to get better or solve the ongoing issues. They absolutely don't get the real reason CS fans were disappointed, and what's perhaps even worse, they flat-out don't care. They'd rather make a flippant, mocking joke than actually think, "Hey, maybe there's a reason fans were upset, and maybe it's because of something we did or didn't do. Maybe we could do better."

[FormerMod-a1]

A&E have said that Rumple was not acting out of a villainous motive.

That is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a while. What, exactly, is a "villainous" motive?

 

 

...Well written villains rarely strut around believing they're villains, and even when she was declaring herself the evil queen, Regina didn't seem to believe she was actually evil--she was going for what she saw as justice and her due. So, what, exactly would qualify as a "villainous" motive? Because slaughtering that village because she was hurting doesn't make it any less villainous, just like Rumple hatting all the fairies isnt less villainous just because he was trying to keep his power and be dagger free.

So, when they say villainous or non villainous motive, what are the writers trying to say? Because I'm boggled.

 

I think they don't understand that actions speak louder than words, and must not know about the "road to hell is paved with good intentions".

[KingOfHearts]

This past week's episode highlighted a major writing problem - too many plots, not enough exploration or payoff. They've got too many toys to play with, and when they get bored of one, they buy two more. They don't flesh out existing stories, hence the lack of depth.

 

Take Marian's resurrection, for example. Regina, Robin and Emma were not the only ones involved. Hook, Marian, Roland, the Merry Men, Snow and even Rumple were all connected to it in some way or fashion. However, the show only focuses on three characters in a tunnel vision because the writers don't want to deal with the real issue. All they wanted was angst, and that's what they got. To make it even worse, they froze Marian and pushed it off to the side to bring in Frozen, the hat, and Outlaw Queen.

 

This show is really good about introducing an issue in the finale, then quickly fixing it in the next few episodes. Curse broke in S1, then they headed off to EF with Cora instead. Cora came to Storybrooke in 2A, then they decided to focus on Woegina instead. Everyone was ready to go to EF at the end of 2B, then in S3 onward they're fine with staying in Storybrooke. Then you have the Missing Year beginning in the 3A finale, proceeded by Storybrooke being back to normal in the next episode. Now we get close to the present when Marian comes town... only to be frozen three episodes later. Plots get introduced then quickly sidelined. Where is the sense in that, really?

 

How much are we willing to bet Rumple will be back in Storybrooke, Belle will get back together with him, and Outlaw Queen will be steaming it up in the crypt soon?

Edited December 17, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Bluerang1]

The rules of The Land Without magic boher me. How come the Dragon could transform in a land without magic?

[KingOfHearts]

 

The rules of The Land Without magic boher me. How come the Dragon could transform in a land without magic?

Because he was an innately magical creature. He could draw magic from inside him. Emma and The Shadow are also innately magical. People like Rumple, Ingrid and Regina can only use magic that's in the air, and in the Land Without Magic, there is no magic in the air. The real headscratcher is Walsh transforming into a monkey.  I got nothing on that.

 

"Rules are made for breaking" - one of A&E's many mottos, right next to "Villains and Victims both start with the same letter" and "Always start something but never finish anything".

Edited December 19, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[HeimrArnadalr]

Because he was an innately magical creature. He could draw magic from inside him. Emma and The Shadow are also innately magical. People like Rumple, Ingrid and Regina can only use magic that's in the air, and in the Land Without Magic, there is no magic in the air. The real headscratcher is Walsh transforming into a monkey.  I got nothing on that.

 

"Rules are made for breaking" - one of A&E's many mottos, right next to "Villains and Victims both start with the same letter" and "Always start something but never finish anything".

But Ingrid's story is that she is an innately magical person (as opposed to Rumple who was cursed and Regina who was taught) and she's trying to find two other innately magical people (Elsa and Emma) to replace her sisters, and she was unable to use her magic in New York. 

 

Rules are made for breaking, indeed.

[Dani-Ellie]

Not necessarily. It's possible that Ingrid just couldn't do whatever she wanted to do to the psychic in that very moment because she didn't know that "magic works differently here." Emma's manifestations of magic in this world have been more in line with real-world things: the flickering lights, the sparks in the overhead lines, the sparks in the claw machine game. Ingrid's magic could still work but just work along the same lines.

 

(Of course, a scenelet explaining this would solve the need for a fanwank, but still.)

Edited December 19, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Dani-Ellie]

Sorry for the double-post, but from YaddaYadda in the Relationships thread:

 

If they took time to really writer relationships for the sake of relationships instead of plot points, the show would be hella better.

 

Y'know, this is where I really miss the real-world-ness of season 1 Storybrooke. Because without magic and villains and constant threats, there was time for the washing-dishes talks. There was time for relationships to develop.

 

My favorite part of this show, hands down, was Mary Margaret and Emma. And you know why? It had nothing to do with magic and curses and heroes and villains and everything to do with this mother and daughter who didn't know they were mother and daughter coming together. It was watching Mary Margaret burrow under Emma's wall and it was watching Emma learn to let her guard down enough to let Mary Margaret in. It was talks over cocoa and cookies and it was a grasp of a hand at breakfast and it was absolutely lovely.

 

And this is what's so frustrating, I think. These guys can do the washing-dishes conversations. We've seen that they can do it. And when they do it, I do think they do it well. So why not play to the show's strengths? The plots fall apart with too much analysis, and the relationships between the characters is where the real drama is. So let the cast work their magic and let the relationships take center stage instead of being snippets. Let the realistic consequences come out instead of having the characters run from plot point to plot point to plot point. Slow the hell down and let the damn story breathe because whenever they've done so in the past, it's worked beautifully.

 

I just don't understand it.

[Mitch]

But Ingrid's story is that she is an innately magical person (as opposed to Rumple who was cursed and Regina who was taught) and she's trying to find two other innately magical people (Elsa and Emma) to replace her sisters, and she was unable to use her magic in New York.

 

One would have thought she was innately magical but as we saw in her last episode she was not, not just because of the psychic but also we pulled out her convenient memory pods, she did exposition on them to explain they were the only magic she had.  

 

The dragon could be innatley magical but all we saw was him levitating somewhat and blowing smoke..so they could say it was an illusion or something like that, but IF he is they need to explain it.

 

Walsh, there is no explanation for him...just the two dimmies in charge thinking it would be cool for Emma to see her boyfriend was a flying monkey.

[Curio]

And this is what's so frustrating, I think. These guys can do the washing-dishes conversations. We've seen that they can do it. And when they do it, I do think they do it well. So why not play to the show's strengths?

 

I'm actually curious how much the writing team has changed since Season 1. Did a lot of them leave after that season? If not, then there's absolutely no excuse as to why the show has derailed so much since then. I see Adam & Eddy as the "big picture" and plot guys, but there's some serious lack of "relationships and character" writers on the team. I thought Jane Espenson used to be good at that, but her presence is obviously not enough to influence the entire writing team.

 

Now I kind of want to go through and do a comprehensive list of who wrote each episode and find out what the hell happened... Give me until the end of the day and I'll post something. (Unless someone else is more bored motivated and would rather waste an hour of their lives! ;)

[sharky]

One would have thought she was innately magical but as we saw in her last episode she was not, not just because of the psychic but also we pulled out her convenient memory pods, she did exposition on them to explain they were the only magic she had.  

 

The dragon could be innatley magical but all we saw was him levitating somewhat and blowing smoke..so they could say it was an illusion or something like that, but IF he is they need to explain it.

 

Walsh, there is no explanation for him...just the two dimmies in charge thinking it would be cool for Emma to see her boyfriend was a flying monkey.

This deleted scene explains it pretty well. Essentially, people can't have magic in this land but things can. So while Ingrid couldn't use her magic, the memory stones could work because they were objects. I'm assuming they would explain the dragon and the monkey as magical objects as well, especially if Walsh somehow came to this realm as a monkey and not as a human.

 

Of course, as I mentioned, it was a deleted scene they released later. I wonder how much these writers have a say in what is or is not deleted because that scene was actually pretty interesting in explaining why things were able to work like that. So why not cut something else out?

[Mathius]

Yeah, it was already established back with Jefferson's hat in the first season that magic can work with objects in the Land Without Magic.

I'm actually curious how much the writing team has changed since Season 1. Did a lot of them leave after that season?

Only one left after it (Liz Tileger).

Two more from it left later (Ian Goldberg and Daniel Thomsen).

Edited December 19, 2014 by Mathius

[Serena]

Liz wasn't even really a OUAT writer. She had some sort of contract with ABC and they had her write a few episodes of their shows that year (she also wrote for Revenge, and I believe she said that was more her genre). So yeah, the same people who wrote S1 also did S2. Honestly, I blame them going for the fan-pandering by woobifying Regina, mostly. 

[FabulousTater]

From the Relationship Thread:

Once is not a good show, but that's probably why I watch it. Call me strange, but I find horrible movies and tv shows entertaining just because of how bad they are. If I were watching for quality, I would have stopped watching altogether in S2. I'm just here to analyze the craziness and laugh at the ridiculousness. The fantasy setting and characters are a perk.

It's not strange, KingOfHearts. I too find that watching something for how bad it is can be very entertaining. But (IMO) this show isn’t even “good” bad. It’s not like "Sharknado" which is hilariously the best worst movie I’ve ever seen (from the “so bad it’s good” genre). That movie was intentionally a nonsensical schlockfest. But ONCE isn’t even enjoyable to me on those terms. The writing on this show is earnest in it's messages of morality and redemption. But the problem is that it does it so badly, the message so twisted, that the result (to me) is instead an insult to basic human decency and genuine human emotions, and a mockery of personal responsibility. (Notice how just about everyone watching found Ingrid taking responsibility for her crimes to be amazingly refreshing because, among the villains of this show, the concept of personal responsibility is just that rare). The show has become so poorly written that I find watching this show to be downright offensive most of the time — the number 1 offender being Woegina.

The entire character of Regina and how she is treated by the writers (and as a result the other characters) — the continual whitewashing (and often excusing) of all her atrocities — is offensive to me on so many levels. Her character and everything she has done is as despicable as it comes. There’s no low she hasn’t sunk to; she has covered the gamut from sexual assault, to crimes against children, to mass murder. I mean, as far as we know she’s never robbed a bank, so there’s that. And these are all things that we’ve seen on screen. It is all canon not fanon. But does Woegina regret any of it? No. Has she ever apologized to the people she has victimized (that are still alive)? Nope. No, instead “No Regrets” Woegina moans and groans and bitches and mopes (and, in the really ugly cases, verbally abuses her victims because they supposedly ruined her life!) about how unfair her life is and that it’s all because some author of some book caused it all (WTF, people. W.T.F!?!).

And to add insult to injury, the characters who have spent their lives being victimized by Regina agree with her crazy notions! They don’t even acknowledge it as insane! They don’t stand up for themselves and they don’t call Woegina on her shit (and actually, the only time that people have stood up for themselves is when they are under a curse!) And it goes further, because in fact, Woegina’s fairy dust be-dazzled “True Love” labels her actions as not evil but instead as “bold and audacious” (Srsly....WTF). Every single character that from the get-go was defined by they very idea of forging your own destiny (it was even in their dialogue), and vehemently opposed to Regina's actions and willing to fight against her lunacy, is now written to “rally” around their abuser and the stupidest fucking plot in the history of ever! There is not a single character on the show that says, “Um, whadda fuck you talking about, Willis Regina?!” And so the result of this is that the other characters (not named Regina) are no longer believable. They are no longer characters in their own right. They’ve been stripped of normal human reactions and now are just punching bag automatons programmed to coddle, excuse, and take abuse from an unrepentant mass murderer; they exist merely to give carte blanche to the most vile and cheer for it.

 

And hey, maybe the writers don’t believe this bullshit. Maybe this is all just a setup for the biggest turnaround in this show's history when the storybook's author pops up and says to Woegina, “Bitch, I’m just recapping your life. I didn’t make you do anything. ‘Personal Responsibility': look it up!” I seriously doubt that will be the result of this, but if that’s their intention then they are doing this all painfully and terribly wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, WRONG. Writing FAIL.

The result of every character “rallying” around Regina's sociopathic lunacy and encouraging Operation Fcked-In-The-Head has NOT been to create suspense in the story or a point of philosophical debate, and that is for one simple reason: the’ve presented no counterpoint. When everyone just stands around nodding in agreement, that’s not a debate; it’s neither an exploration of moral issues nor remotely thoughtful analysis. You can’t explore a topic if you fail to present a single opposing view let alone a tangential one. Instead, what these writers have done is to have turned the entire show into an Echo Chamber of Lunacy and to have lobotomized and destroyed almost every single character on this show to service one thing and one thing alone: Woegina and her “happy ending”.

The problems with this show aren’t just one or two (or even three). If it were just a matter of campy effects, wacky logic, frequent plot holes and plot contrivances, I would have less issue with watching this show. I feel that in this day and age we’ve been conditioned (by the overabundance of poor quality TV) to overlook many shortcomings in the writing. But the writers of this show have managed to pile hellaciously terrible writing on top of bad writing. And the final straw for me is that the characters (as written) are no longer believable as genuine human beings. They don’t have normal human reactions and instead their emotions are entirely dictated by the plot. The characters’ sudden leaps of logic, their on again/off again emotional outbursts (and especially the lack thereof), their actions and behaviors are all a result of the plot pulling the characters' strings. They are sad (but pretty) puppets in a show where the strings are painfully visible.

IMO, the only reason this show is still on, the only reason that people still watch, is because of the cast. These actors (largely) manage to pull blood from a stone and keep their characters from becoming complete and total un-relatable robots. They manage to keep people vested in what is, when it’s all added up, just plain garbage writing. At this point, I only wish better for the cast members because if they can keep this steaming garbage afloat for this long, imagine what they could do with good writing.

Edited December 20, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Camera One]

 

but there's some serious lack of "relationships and character" writers on the team. I thought Jane Espenson used to be good at that, but her presence is obviously not enough to influence the entire writing team.

 

I used to think that back in "Buffy" days (mostly since she had such a positive reputation, not because I actually looked up which episodes she wrote), but I question that now.  She seems to be as hit and miss as everyone else.  Her work in "White Out" was just not very good.  Even if the general plot outline was dictated, the character stuff written for Charming was terrible.  Drunk father?  Really?  "Bleeding Through" and "The Evil Queen" were so messed up.

Edited December 20, 2014 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

Even if the general plot outline was dictated, the character stuff written for Charming was terrible.  Drunk father?  Really?

 

Drunk father, a complete push-over who learned to be how he is because of someone 10-15 years younger than him.  I hate the fairybacks.

[KingOfHearts]

Drunk father, a complete push-over who learned to be how he is because of someone 10-15 years younger than him.  I hate the fairybacks.

I was hoping he was Prince Jonathan. That seemed to be a bit unlikely after White Out, and that upset me.

 

What really irritates me about Once is that there's obvious potential that gets intentionally overlooked. There's an amazing cast, setup, and even some fantastic writing here and there. The show promises a lot, but it rarely makes good on it. Consequences and payoff would increase the quality immensely. It's not worth watching if all the talent is slammed against a brick wall every single arc. The potential is staggering, but the execution is an utter failure 90% of the time. It's sad, really.

Edited December 20, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

And the final straw for me is that the characters (as written) are no longer believable as genuine human beings. They don’t have normal human reactions and instead their emotions are entirely dictated by the plot. The characters’ sudden leaps of logic, their on again/off again emotional outbursts (and especially the lack thereof), their actions and behaviors are all a result of the plot pulling the characters' strings. They are sad (but pretty) puppets in a show where the strings are painfully visible.

 

That is the crux of the matter. The premise of the show was built on bringing fairy tale characters into the "Real World". Instead of making them more fleshed-out than their fairy tale origins would suppose, they've made their characters more two-dimensional than they used to be, and turned them into cardboard cut-outs. After the mid-season finale, people have talked about how OOC it was for Emma to join Operation Mongoose when in S1, her mantra was "People are gonna tell you who you are your whole life. You just gotta punch back and say, "No, this is who I am". You want people to look at you differently? Make them! You want to change things, you're gonna have to go out there and change them yourself, because there are no fairy godmothers in this world." But the problem is, the way she is written now, it is not OOC for Emma. She has finally accepted her place with the fairy tale characters, and has started buying into their myths and psyche. She has started to turn into a fairy tale character herself, and seems to have lost a lot of her gumption in the process.

 

The whole show has now become focused on one thing: getting Regina her Happy Ending. That was A&E's vision when the created the Show (I've linked to that interview a couple of times in the past), and that's what is playing out on-screen. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

The whole show has now become focused on one thing: getting Regina her Happy Ending. That was A&E's vision when the created the Show (I've linked to that interview a couple of times in the past), and that's what is playing out on-screen.

If that were the actual main premise of the show, then Regina's screentime wouldn't be that outlandish. I guess the Disney execs wanted some massive editing done to include other characters and their stories. Once is just one big con - "You think it's an ensemble cast, but it's really about one female lead!" S1 had everyone fooled, then 2B came to remove any doubt.

Edited December 20, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

Once is just one big con - "You think it's an ensemble cast, but it's really about one female lead!" S1 had everyone fooled, then 2B came to remove any doubt.

And if we go even more meta here -- it certainly makes sense why they changed the DVD covers from showing the entire ensemble cast to just being a close up of the Evil Queen's face.

Edited December 20, 2014 by Curio

[Serena]

The whole show has now become focused on one thing: getting Regina her Happy Ending. That was A&E's vision when the created the Show (I've linked to that interview a couple of times in the past), and that's what is playing out on-screen. 

You know what, I don't believe that. There's been a definite shift in how they write Regina post-S1. There's no way they would have had her be a rapist if they really wanted to redeem her from the beginning, I just don't believe that.

[Dani-Ellie]

I go back and forth between "they never planned to redeem Regina" and "they always planned to redeem Regina and just have no concept of a moral event horizon."

 

Because even in season 2, we have Regina, in the past, massacring an entire village because they refused to help her with her vengeance quest. We have half a season's worth of Regina, in the present day, trying to kill Henry's entire family so she can have him all to herself. (So basically, don't try to sell me on this Evil Queen is in the past crap, show, because present-day Regina is just as cruel and just as unstable.) For me, there's no fixing that. There's no coming back from that. That kind of mentality is what leads people to have their own episodes of Snapped or something. And especially where Regina has "no regrets," has not offered apologies to the Charmings for trying to kill them, and does not seem to see the error of her ways, that's a danger you isolate lest she decide she wants something else and kills a whole other bunch of people to get it.

Edited December 20, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Faemonic]

I go back and forth between "they never planned to redeem Regina" and "they always planned to redeem Regina and just have no concept of a moral event horizon."

I'd go with that, too. I mean, there was some demonstrated gray with the cold, controlling mother who yet "changed every diaper, soothed every fever, endured every tantrum..." And then some of Regina's reflecting on how Cora's parenting influenced how she messed up with Henry who then could have been key to messing up with everyone else. But the massacre tells me that evil is kind of abstract, as you said, not a horizon the writers think that they can go over...more like a placeholder, almost, like, "To redeem her, she needs to have done something wrong. What would be cool to do wrong that just gets the message through? Mass-murder of entire towns and attempted mass-murder of a village? Can do!"

 

I think whatever got 2x17 ("Welcome to Storybrooke" a.k.a. Greg/Owen's backstory) would be interesting to examine. What was the creative process for the overarching story for which that episode was a main point? Who was tapdancing all through that episode? It was brilliant in some ways in how it explained Regina's motivations, but how it handled the return of Graham and the tragic fate of Owen's father is just...that's not gray so much as it's just confusing. Maybe I just don't have the moral philosophical range to parse that episode. Especially in light of the Regina adopting Henry flashbacks in 409.

 

Mass-murder is evil and irredeemable of those unrepentant, but sometimes a million is a statistic. What weirds me out is the treatment of "one of the millions" that people actually can put a face to: Graham, Owen's Dad (sorry, keep forgetting his name but I remember him well!), and now Marion.

[Dani-Ellie]

What weirds me out is the treatment of "one of the millions" that people actually can put a face to: Graham, Owen's Dad (sorry, keep forgetting his name but I remember him well!), and now Marion.

 

Right. If we hadn't seen so much of Regina's past evil, I don't think it would be as frustrating. But when they show us: a field of bodies from an entire village whose only crime was not helping Regina find and kill another innocent person, a pile of bones of all the children she sent into the Blind Witch's house to retrieve the apple for her, her guards being sent in to kill an innocent newborn baby (and there is no mistaking that was the guards' instructions since "getting rid of a baby just made my to-do list"), killing her father to enact the Dark Curse, using a stolen heart to take away a person's free well, attempting to kidnap a child, killing the child's father and leaving said child orphaned, putting an innocent woman on death row for refusing to help her on her vengeance quest and then parading that woman around as an example while laughing at her suffering and fear, and gaslighting her own son (and that's just all off the top of my head!), I need for the inevitable redemption arc to address these things.

 

Basically, show me why a that person described up there deserves a second chance.

[ParadoxLost]

I go back and forth between "they never planned to redeem Regina" and "they always planned to redeem Regina and just have no concept of a moral event horizon."

 

I'm firmly in the category that they don't really care that much about redeeming Regina.  Its a side effect of the stories they want to tell which is simply Storybrooke vs. the villainous outsider.  If redeeming Regina was anywhere near the top of their priority list, they would take more care with her characterization.  I think Regina gets sacrificed for the sake of plot nearly as much as every other character.

 

Regina planning to execute Marion wasn't necessary.  But they needed Emma to meet Marian and have a reason to rescue her.  Evil Queen captured Emma so she had to capture Marian and someone dying solves the changing the past dilemma.   They even doubled down on Emma's motivation by making protecting Snow White the reason Marian was going to be executed.  That they didn't follow up with this means that they didn't care enough about Regina to avoid being lazy in the writing but didn't want Regina to pay for it.  Honestly, Snow's cheerleading of adultery smells of it getting pointed  out to them  in social media or interviews.  I bet this was part of what got added to the episode later to expand it to two hours.

 

There is an in show familiarity with how they are on trwitter in that scene.  Its smacks of their decisions being questioned and then them telling us we are getting it wrong.

 

They did the same thing with Hook as Regina/Marian.  Hook does stupid/bad things and lies to Emma about it to set up the plot and now it will never come up again.because they don't want the character to pay for setting up plot.  I'd argue that they like Hook more than Regina simply because they gave him the voicemail apology that Emma will never hear that will cut off eternal viewer debate and discussion of that period of time.

Edited December 20, 2014 by ParadoxLost

[RadioGirl27]

I think A&E didn't intend to redeem Regina in season, and that's why she did the things she did, both in EF and in Storybrooke. But, half season 2, they changed their minds, probably because of the popularity of both the character and the actress playing her (I'm not sure if she is the most popular, but her fans are the loudest). This has put themselves in a complicated situation, because they want to redeem Regina keeping the Evil Queen. Their solution has been writting Regina and the Evil Queen as two different characters, making everything even messier.

[Rumsy4]

I bet A&E think they're telling an amazing redemption story with Regina. It's like they want to see how far they can push Regina's evil deeds, and yet keep people rooting for her, as is typical with so many such stories. Graham's rape didn't even register to them as anything other than, "Look how deliciously evil she is". They have joked and dismissed the rape, and flat out denied Graham was raped in Storybrooke. So, that is not proof that they never meant to redeem Regina. After all, they showed her burning Snow alive and enjoying the sight at the S3 finale. And showed her enslaving Sidney in 4A. So, they have no problems pushing her terrible deeds in our faces even now.

Even as far back as the end of S1, Regina was claiming that she loved Henry, and he would understand that one day. They think they've paid it off with the heartless true love's kiss in 3B. I agree that the writing for Regina turned towards whitewashing and excusing ever since S2, but that's because they became completely infatuated with the Evil Queen around that point. They've completely lost all objectivity when it comes to Regina, and their characters and plots refelct that. But the plan to redeem her was there from the start.

[Camera One]

Even though they did write Regina doing horrible things in 2B, their end-game for 2B was to have Regina sacrifice herself to save everyone, and to have Owen "punish" her with the electroshock (of course, Snow had to be punished the same way at the same time for that evil deed with Cora).  I think that does suggest their intention was to redeem Regina.  Right from 2A, they were stressing how much Regina loves Henry, to have her try to give up magic for him, and then in 2B going overboard in having Henry "realize" that himself and start being her personal little cheerleader.  

 

I agree that Regina's redemption has been handled horribly and written very poorly, despite this being their intention.  The writers seem to have no awareness that their gimmicky writing of her (eg. The Season 4 premiere teasing that Regina might go full-evil, by having her contemplate killing Marion) destroys her characterization and undermines that idiotic Outlaw Queen plot.

 

As Rumsy4 said, in all their interviews, A&E basically say that Regina is misunderstood, her own worse enemy, is responding to not be accepted by others, has a chance at redemption.  To a lesser extent, they also feel this way about Rumple.  And yet weirdly, despite being so generous with their assessments of these two characters, or maybe because of it, they feel the need to drag the "good guys" through the mud to make their other point, that their world is "gray".  Even in "The Evil Queen", they made sure to have Snow reject Regina JUST when Regina was starting to see the light.

[Rumsy4]

Even in "The Evil Queen", they made sure to have Snow reject Regina JUST when Regina was starting to see the light.

That still makes me soooo mad. Regina slaughtered an entire village! And yet, the episode ended in a way that put the blame on Snow for refusing to forgive Regina.

[kili]

Honestly, Snow's cheerleading of adultery smells of it getting pointed  out to them  in social media or interviews.  I bet this was part of what got added to the episode later to expand it to two hours.

 

Yes, those cheer leading scenes were filmed later than the rest of the episode - during the filming of a later episode (4.10). Josh took some nice pictures and there were some fans that tweeted about the filming in Stanley Park (Pipeline Road is where they filmed the saunter and chat about Regina's love life while your daughter is about to be killed scenes).

 

I agree that the writers were using those scenes to say "No, you are supposed to cheer for Outlaw Queen. Even Snow does. Cheating on your sick wife is good. Having sex underneath the grave of the father you murdered is hot!".

 

When viewers don't understand the point that A&E are making, A&E respond by beating viewers over the head with it. They are the equivalent of people who travel to foreign lands, don't bother to learn the language and when their English is not understood, they just speak louder and slower.

 

Sure, it's their vision and they are allowed to tell the story they want. But viewers (unlike the characters in Storybrooke, apparently) have free will and do not always respond to the stories in the way that A&E want.

[KingOfHearts]

 

And especially where Regina has "no regrets," has not offered apologies to the Charmings for trying to kill them, and does not seem to see the error of her ways, that's a danger you isolate lest she decide she wants something else and kills a whole other bunch of people to get it.

I thought Regina's redemption was fine up until The Cricket Game. Her 2A redemption was quick and out of nowhere, but it was handled pretty well with episodes like We Are Both and The Doctor. They actually cared about important issues then, like Henry's abuse and her grudge about Daniel. I could see Regina was serious about changing... then Cora came along and ruined it. I'm not saying Regina wasn't responsible for backsliding, because she was, but it was the Archie murder framing that set off the Woegina Movement of 2B. It all went to hell after that.

 

I'm not sure what the writers were thinking with Regina in 2B. They wanted the audience to sympathize with her and her lasagna in Cricket Game and Welcome to Storybrooke, then they show her mass murdering villages and attempting to kill everyone in Storybrooke. I know 2B was messed up in general, but Regina was by far the worst part of it all. 

 

 

Sure, it's their vision and they are allowed to tell the story they want. But viewers (unlike the characters in Storybrooke, apparently) have free will and do not always respond to the stories in the way that A&E want.

I've know several people who were confused and unhappy about the idea of Regina's redemption in S2, even in 2A.

Edited December 20, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Dani-Ellie]

I thought Regina's redemption was fine up until The Cricket Game. Her 2A redemption was quick and out of nowhere, but it was handled pretty well with episodes like We Are Both and The Doctor.

 

I agree with this. I honestly think it was the flip-flopping that killed it. Every time they build her up to a certain level of self-awareness, they backslide her again. And, y'know, I wouldn't mind a backslide or two if the backslide wasn't back to square one every. single. time. Her speech to Tink in 3A? Was wonderful. It was amazing. It showed a level of self-awareness that she was responsible for her own misery and that she had darkened her own heart because of the path she took that I'd been yearning for. And then they kill it six episodes later with the "no regrets" thing.

 

The intention may be to show "she's struggling, you guys!" but it just says to me that she's never going to learn.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I agree with this. I honestly think it was the flip-flopping that killed it.

There's that and the coddling. Regina's redemption in 2A didn't start from anyone encouraging her or whitewashing. She made the decision herself. She saw she was becoming Cora and knew that's not what she wanted at all. She realized she hurt Henry and at the very least she wanted to change just for him. It wasn't about getting new boyfriends or getting Henry back (she let him stay with David), but doing what was best for her son. That self-awareness died a painful death when the mother came into town. From then on it was about other people telling her who she is instead of making choices herself, and then the flip-flopping went in full force.

 

These writers really know how to get the ball then drop it very, very far.

Edited December 20, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

I think I've figured out what the writing on this show reminds me of. A few years ago, I was invited to be one of the instructors for a writing workshop being held at a big anime convention. As part of the workshop, participants had to submit some writing (a short story or novel excerpt) ahead of time, and then I did face-to-face critiques at the workshop. I got what I believe was the beginner group (because believe it or not, I'm generally considered to be nice and diplomatic, and some of the other instructors were more blunt). They were so earnest, sitting there in their little fairy wings and fox ears, and it's possible that some of their writing was even fanfic (I'm not an anime fan, so I wouldn't have recognized the properties) or else they were transitioning from writing fanfic to trying to write original fiction with a goal of publication. And most of the problems I saw in their writing are in this show.

 

There was the story with the obvious Victim Sue character in which we saw a sad incident involving this character from the viewpoint of another person. Then we had a scene in which Victim Sue thought about this incident while listening to a sad song on the radio. Then the person who had seen the incident in the first place thought about it and wondered how Victim Sue was doing. Then the other person in the scene with Victim Sue told someone else about the incident. By the time we were done, we knew what absolutely everyone in the story thought about this one incident, while nothing else had happened. That was so much like what happened with Regina in this latest episode, where we had Marian talking about how she saw Regina and Robin's relationship, Regina and Robin talking about their relationship multiple times, Regina and Rumple talking about her relationship, what she thought about what was happening and her chances for a happy ending, and then in the end, Emma came to talk to Regina about what happened with Robin. And that's after we'd already heard what Snow and Henry had to say about it. Granny and Grumpy haven't yet sounded off about it, but I'm sure that's coming in the spring.

 

And there was the story that was so plot-driven that the characters and their emotions didn't make sense. The story kicked off with someone exploding violently with rage over some minor thing and starting a huge fight. I asked the writer if this was meant to show us something about this character because the reaction was so extreme that it didn't make any sense. He said no, that he just needed a fight to take place there for the story to work. Later, something really big happened and the characters didn't react at all. They just kept doing what they were doing. I asked about that, why the characters weren't affected, and he said it didn't really matter to the story because they were going to just do the same thing anyway, and he needed them to do that same thing. It was like this guy just didn't understand how emotions worked and how they affected people. The characters existed only to make things happen in the plot.

 

He might have been somewhere on the Asperger's end of the spectrum. I've sometimes wondered that about these writers because they're so tone deaf about emotions, but I think if that were the case, then the rules of how magic worked would be excruciatingly detailed and rather rigid and the timeline would work down to the minute.

 

It does boggle the mind that they're running a TV series with writing skills out of the beginner session of an anime convention writers workshop.

[Mitch]

This deleted scene explains it pretty well. Essentially, people can't have magic in this land but things can. So while Ingrid couldn't use her magic, the memory stones could work because they were objects. I'm assuming they would explain the dragon and the monkey as magical objects as well, especially if Walsh somehow came to this realm as a monkey and not as a human.

 

Of course, as I mentioned, it was a deleted scene they released later. I wonder how much these writers have a say in what is or is not deleted because that scene was actually pretty interesting in explaining why things were able to work like that. So why not cut something else out?

 

Yes, we know magical objects can work..but even Jefferson's Hat was a problem in S1 in that they needed magic to make it work and even after magic came back Regina couldn't get it to work without a kickstart from Emma. The Monkey thing...uh, no...a monkey is not an object. And even if he was a monkey when he came to this world how did he turn into Walsh in a Land Without Magic, which by the way, did they ever explain how Zelena got him to our world? Did he come with the curse?/

 

Anwyay, that would mean if Maleficent broke out of the library and crossed the town line she would still be in Dragon form (or would she be dragon with amnesia if she crossed the line.)

 

Nope..even Hook's ship (why is everyone calling him Killian on this board, no one on the show does...) is stupid outside of Storybrooke...(was it invisible in New York?)

 

Re: Regina's redemption. I don't understand how they are handling it, but it is piss poor. Season 1 Regina we saw more regret and ambivilance then we have seen since. I think the worst part for me was the scene was with Greg. The writers didn't give any indication that while what Greg was doing is wrong (even if Regina deserved it Henry didnt) he was looking for his father so we should sympathise with him somewhat.  Then when Regina said to him very cruelly "I killed him," that was really going over the top. That means that Regina, in our world committed murder, with her own two hands. (who did she overpower a strong man???) and then buried his body!!! At first I thought, it was a lie to throw Greg off or to be defiant but no, there was no follow up to that. And no one mentions it..."Oh, Regina about that murder you committed here, in our world..does Henry know?"  Even if they would have given her more of a line like " I had him locked away. There was nothing I could do, he couldnt go to the outside world. He escaped and broke into my house, and he was chocking me so I hit him with a vase. and had to hide the body."

 

I guess the EQ and their world is so weird that I could seperate Regina from the EQ and that is what they wanted but then they go and do something like this. What the hell are they thinking most days?

Edited December 20, 2014 by Mitch

[Souris]

I thought this answer on Twitter by Jane Espenson was interesting. Wonder what changed?

 

The Red Rose ‏@Ouatlover4everr  23m23 minutes ago
@JaneEspenson Hi, sorry 2 bother again! May i ask a question?
What was the hardest Ouat episode to write? And Why? :))

Jane Espenson
‏@JaneEspenson
@Ouatlover4everr For me, Ep 313 -- Witch Hunt. I was pressed for time and there was a change in the story during the writing.

 

She also said she's co-writing an ep with Kalinda Vasquez.

Edited December 20, 2014 by Souris

[KingOfHearts]

 

I thought this answer on Twitter by Jane Espenson was interesting. Wonder what changed?

Maybe there was a change for when Emma got her memories back? I could see her maybe going to Storybrooke and finding something there to change her mind. I thought that was where they were heading before she drank the potion in 3x12. I imagined memory-less Emma going to town for answers or Hook pretending to be a client or something. Her going after Zelena not knowing who she was would have been interesting. Everyone would have known whats up besides Emma and Henry, which would be a totally inverse of S1.

Edited December 20, 2014 by KingOfHearts