The Writers of OUAT: Because, Um, Magic, That's Why

[kili]

This show is starting to remind me of "A Series of Unfortunate Events". No matter how clever or brave the heroes are, the villains are always going to come out on top.  Characters are there to service the plot. Repetitiveness is the name of the game. And wonderful mysteries can be created because we are never going to be told the answers to them. Plots and characters will just be dropped. There will be no final closure.

[KingOfHearts]

So this writing choice confuses me. The Nevengers choose to go to the Underworld by their own accord, but we don't see this happen nor are we explicitly given the reasons why. (Except for Rumple's blackmail.) There were two instances in 5A that could have backed it up. First, when they're holding hands to stop the Fury, why not come back to that and say they all have to go the Underworld to pay the price? And secondly, Nimue marked everyone who ends up going there anyway. You would have to make some adjustments to the story, but why set it up when it doesn't make a difference?

[Camera One]

I suppose Nimue also marked the Dwarves, but they're not going.  I'm not sure if the Writers were trying to go for surprise or what... that we'd be surprised when they all waded into the water?  Couldn't Charon park a little closer to shore?

 

The Writers always present a premise as if they would do something with it.  Remember when Grumpy said they didn't want to be left out of an adventure and they went to Camelot?  What exactly did they do there?   I actually can't think of a thing.  So I suppose it made no difference they're not going to hell. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

What exactly did they do there?   I actually can't think of a thing.

He gave Belle the "glass is half full" pep talk at the ball. That's about it.

 

 

I suppose Nimue also marked the Dwarves, but they're not going.  I'm not sure if the Writers were trying to go for surprise or what... that we'd be surprised when they all waded into the water?  Couldn't Charon park a little closer to shore?

The writers could have just had Nimue mark who they wanted to go the Undeworld in 5B. Emma could hitch a ride with Gold, and Hook was already there. Same thing with the Fury.

[Souris]

I suspect there may have been more in the loft scene with some dialogue about the others volunteering to go with her, but it fell victim to the time guillotine.

[Curio]

I suspect there may have been more in the loft scene with some dialogue about the others volunteering to go with her, but it fell victim to the time guillotine.

 

You mean like this?

[InsertWordHere]

Ah, David was the first to volunteer. And Snow got to speak about her time as Emma's friend in Season One. 

 

Is Henry going to us "I'm the author now" as an excuse to do anything he wants from now on? "Henry, eat your vegetables." (said by Regina obviously) "I don't have to, I'm the author now." "Henry, please stop playing that Yaz song." "I can't hear you. I'm the author now."

[KingOfHearts]

It's also nice to see Regina say, "I want to help you." Her selfless actions are few and far between, so it's mildly frustrating that line got taken out.

Edited December 9, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Wow, nice scene.  Seriously, there wasn't 2 minutes that could be cut elsewhere?

[Curio]

Wow, nice scene.  Seriously, there wasn't 2 minutes that could be cut elsewhere?

 

If you take Regina entirely out of the Hook flashback and have it so Hook just randomly runs into his father, that would have cut out a good 6 minutes from the episode.

[ImNotBatman]

You mean like this?

Are those legit script pages or somebody on Tumblr using their photoshop skillz? Some of those lines sound kinda off to me and I've seen stuff on Tumblr that you'd swear was real, but it isn't.

[Serena]

That's a beautiful scene. Why was it cut?!?

[Curio]

Are those legit script pages or somebody on Tumblr using their photoshop skillz? Some of those lines sound kinda off to me and I've seen stuff on Tumblr that you'd swear was real, but it isn't.

 

I thought the same thing at first, but then I saw Adam talking to some fans about it on Twitter, so it actually seems legit.

 

But I agree with you, it reads a bit clunky. Wasn't the lesson Emma kept getting drilled with over and over this season about how she needs to ask others for help? So what was she proposing to them here—that she go to the Underworld by herself? Doesn't that go against the whole theme of the season? I'm fine with what we got on screen, honestly. 

Edited December 9, 2015 by Curio

[Camera One]

A lot of what they write is clunky.  I can see them thinking it's more impactful if we just saw everyone joining her instead of them talking about it.

[ImNotBatman]

I thought the same thing at first, but then I saw Adam talking to some fans about it on Twitter, so it actually seems legit.

 

But I agree with you, it reads a bit clunky. Wasn't the lesson Emma kept getting drilled with over and over this season about how she needs to ask others for help? So what was she proposing to them here—that she go to the Underworld by herself? Doesn't that go against the whole theme of the season? I'm fine with what we got on screen, honestly.

I see. Thx. It does read clunky. Maybe for once the writing team looked at this early draft and saw that it was too clunky even for them. I too am okay with what we got. The deleted scene with Henry's "I'm the author" line was hella obnoxious. You're "The Author" in name only with ZERO powers, you little shit. And the one who created that position, Merlin, caused this whole CF in the first place. Take a seat and stay in it, Henry, and while you sit there eat this big slice of STFU cake.

 

Re: Emma's plan to split her heart to bring back Hook from the dead. I think the writers went with that because, when they wrote the fall finale, they hadn't figured out how they were going to bring Hook back and heart splitting sounded as good an idea as any to them. It was better than having Emma say "Pfft, I'm winging it." (Who wants to start taking bets that how they do end up resurrecting Hook still doesn't make sense?)

 

Since the deadweight, Henry, threw a twee fit to get to join the mission, they should exchange Hook for Henry, and that way Emma gets Hook and can keep her nice, shiny heart intact. Happy Ending: Check.

Edited December 9, 2015 by ImNotBatman

[Camera One]

I must say, Adam is being patient explaining that scene and why it was cut.  It's rare he actually gives some info of substance.  Apparently, it was filmed, but it was difficult to edit since it was filmed in one continuous shot, so they had to take the whole thing out.  Not surprisingly, but some fans are just rude in their responses.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Camera One

[ImNotBatman]

^Adam posed that as an example of why a scene would be cut. Not specifically that this scene was cut for that reason.

 

Not surprisingly, but some fans are just rude in their responses.

 

Ya they are. I don't get why he bothers. But then I remebered this from XKCD

 

Adam can't help himself. He has to respond to twitter fan perceptions he thinks are 'wrong'. Let it go, man. Let it go.

Edited December 9, 2015 by ImNotBatman

[Rumsy4]

I would liked the scene to have stayed. Lol at Robin not even saying he is going too. It looks odd that neither Snowflake nor Pistachio were mentioned. Emma struck out on her own when she wrote the letter and took off as well.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Rumsy4

[RadioGirl27]

I'm glad they cut that scene. Some of the dialogue is terrible and it shows, once again, how little everyone not named Emma cares about Hook. At least, this way I can keep my headcanon that Charming and Henry are going because they also care about Hook and want him back, and not only because of Emma (and plot!).

Edited December 9, 2015 by RadioGirl27

[Amerilla]

Gah, that is some clunky dialog.

 

Really, one of the things that seems to stick in our collective craw is how character behavior is driven by the need of the plot, often without any connection to what happened before. Or without logic.

 

Here, the Nevengers (Hookvengers?) are required by the plot to be in the Underworld,

probably because of the Very Special 100th Episode where they can all be bashed over the head with the people they've loved/hated/wronged/lost

, so they just go.

 

But that shouldn't absolve the writers of the chore of coming up with something plausible to explain it.

 

You have to explain why Snow AND David would both leave Baby Neal to go with Emma. This isn't about loving one child more than another, it's simple logic: Snowflake is only a couple months old at this point, one caretaker should stay behind. Period.

 

Same with Robin and Regina: he has two small children now, and GreenBean Pistachio Nut is a freakin' newborn - why on earth would both of them go to the Underworld help Emma get her boyfriend back? When it doubt...go with the side that can't support their own neck.

 

Henry? Oy. Just, no. Neither Emma nor Regina would deliberately put him in this level of danger for no other reason that he wants to come along.  You're telling us they couldn't just poof him to his bedroom and whip up some sort of magic LoJack that prevented him from following? 

 

And because the plot dictates that they use Belle to "blackmail" Rumpel for the trip, they can't even draw on the marginally plausible solution of putting Henry in the role of "protector" and leaving him and both babies with Belle, who is already established as Snowflake's go-to babysitter.

She's obviously going to need the practice.

 

Obviously, most sentient viewers realize that there's a 99.99999% chance that the team is going to come back from the UW completely unscathed, and the babies are in no real peril. But the characters shouldn't know that they're coming back unscathed. By telegraphing that everything is going to turn out ok, and using that to gloss over what should be some pretty deep feels, the writers strip a lot of deep emotion out of the story in the name of cheap-n-easy plot points.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Amerilla

[Camera One]

once again, how little everyone not named Emma cares about Hook. At least, this way I can keep my headcanon that Charming and Henry are going because they also care about Hook and want him back, and not only because of Emma

 

Based on what we've seen in the writing, David doesn't care that much about Hook, and the main reason he would go is because of Emma.  Technically, there were other people that each of them would rather save on a personal level.  Was Charming's mother *supposed* to have her life cut short by King George?   He wouldn't have gone out of his way to go to the Underworld to save her even though he loved her.  

 

 

 

But that shouldn't absolve the writers of the chore of coming up with something plausible to explain it.

 

In such a situation, they might have decided it was better not to explain it in the first place.  

 

Frankly, the entire mission to save someone who has already died and was carried away on a gurney makes no sense, even though it sounds like it could be "fun" to watch.   I wonder if the writers will have Regina say, "I wish I did this with Daniel", or if they would interpret that to have been wrong.  Why not save everyone she unfairly killed?  Where do you draw the line?

Edited December 9, 2015 by Camera One

[orza]

They don't go into relationships and deep character development because this show is a plot-driven fantasy adventure for family viewing and that is what appeals to children. Paul Lee set those expectations before the pilot aired. Perhaps it is possible that some people have been mistaken all along about what the show really is and that is the root of their dissatisfaction. The creators of the show cannot be faulted for not doing what they never intended to do and for delivering what the network, their actual customer, wants. At some point it makes little sense to be so hypercritical of a kids' show for not being an adult drama.

 

Henry is on the trip because he is the POV character for the millions of children who watch the show. He is a popular character among the younger viewers and, apparently, Jared is becoming something of a tween heart throb. Young girls squee over him the same way grown-ass women squee over Colin.

[HoodlumSheep]

Henry really needs to drop "the author" act. Sheesh. There's no more magical pen, therefore the whole "Author" job has become obsolete.

I can see why that scene was cut. Even without it, they all seemed to be going to the UW voluntarily. Maybe it was just the vibe of the scene.

[Curio]

They don't go into relationships and deep character development because this show is a plot-driven fantasy adventure for family viewing and that is what appeals to children. Paul Lee set those expectations before the pilot aired. Perhaps it is possible that some people have been mistaken all along about what the show really is and that is the root of their dissatisfaction.

 

That sounds like a huge cop-out. Good character development and plot-driven fantasy elements aren't mutually exclusive concepts. Look at Gravity Falls, a show aimed primarily at children that airs on the Disney Channel. They have lots of fantasy-driven plots and mysteries like Once, but they also allow the characters to have fun character-driven moments in between.

 

Even freaking South Park has knocked it out of the park this season with not only their brilliant continuity, but they also stay true to the characters' personalities and utilize their supporting players in a way that doesn't seem shoehorned or ham-fisted. It's sad when I wish that this show could have the same kind of great continuity, character development, and world-building as some animated shows.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Curio

[orza]

Adam mentioned somewhere that everyone thought this would be the first show to be cancelled in 2011. Against all expectations, it is now a successful show in its 5th season, The network is very happy with the show and Adam and Eddy have become millionaires and are respected by their peers. By all industry standards that matter they are successful and will be given more opportunities in the future. While they are not making the show that some people want, they are making a show that millions of viewers do enjoy. That is an accomplishment that few people can boast.

 

The show doesn't have to be perfect or win any awards for excellence. It just has to make money for the network and it does that very well. That is it's entire purpose in life. It's not art, it's a consumer product. There's a place for shows of mid-range quality in the TV landscape. No TV show, no matter how good or bad, is required viewing. People are free to stop watching shows that disappoint them and perhaps would be better off turning their attention to shows that do meet their standards

[LizaD]

That's just flat out wrong. This show was always advertised as character-driven, from top to bottom. ABC doesn't do "plot-driven" dramas. They've branded the ENTIRE network as character driven and yes that's straight from Paul Lee and everyone down below. They scoff at those plot-driven stuff, e.g. procedurals and CBS.

Go back to the interviews when A&E first talked about the conception of the show. It's all character, character, character. I dare anyone to find the words "plot-driven" used in a positive or promoting manner coming from Paul Lee, or any exec at ABC, about any show on ABC.

Now whether the show is actually character driven or not, is debateable but it was and is advertised as such.

As for "millions" of kids watching this show? That is downright laughable and just plain false. If you really had access to the kids 2-11 demos you would know that this show has never, ever had "millions" of kids 2-11 watching it. Not even at its highest series 2-11 demos with Frozen, followed by S1. It's not even the top show on ABC for demos 2-11, S1 again being the exception. Also go look at the press releases from ABC. They call Once, scripted "adult drama." I don't know when they started adding that qualifier to Once, but its there.

[YaddaYadda]

Speaking of kids.

 

Is it me, or has there been more blood this half season than there has been during the entire run of it?

[Amerilla]

The network is very happy with the show and Adam and Eddy have become millionaires and are respected by their peers. By all industry standards that matter they are successful and will be given more opportunities in the future. While they are not making the show that some people want, they are making a show that millions of viewers do enjoy. That is an accomplishment that few people can boast.

 

Not completely untrue, but utterly irrelevant to the discussion in this thread...which is, the narrative construction of this particular consumer product. 

[FierceAfroChick]

They don't go into relationships and deep character development because this show is a plot-driven fantasy adventure for family viewing and that is what appeals to children.

 

At some point it makes little sense to be so hypercritical of a kids' show for not being an adult drama.

 

 

 

Do children really watch this show?  I can't imagine anyone under 13 being interested in adultery, baby mama drama, or daddy and abandonment issues.

 

Frankly, the entire mission to save someone who has already died and was carried away on a gurney makes no sense, even though it sounds like it could be "fun" to watch.

 

It irritates me that they don’t think these through or bounce pros and cons of certain plot points off each other.  Instead of killing Hook (which has become as redundant as memory curses), have him dragged alive and kicking to the UW.  A rescue mission for someone who’s alive makes sense.

 

And where is Hook’s body while they’re off in the UW trying to rescue his soul?  Did they bury him?  How is Emma going to shove half her heart into a soul.  It's not corporeal. 

 

*seriously thinking about getting a Twitter account so I can hit Eddy and Adam with how their shit makes no sense*

Edited December 9, 2015 by FierceAfroChick

[Mathius]

Based on what we've seen in the writing, David doesn't care that much about Hook, and the main reason he would go is because of Emma.

 

As I've said before, this is frustrating because stuff in Season 3 and 4A did show David coming to like and appreciate Hook as a person, and as a worthy man for his daughter.  4B and 5A just suddenly threw that away, with both 4x15 and 5x10 showing him thinking very little of Hook since he immediately suspects he'll relapse into evil at any opportune moment (he was kind of right in the second case, but that was partly Emma's fault though her having no faith in him and controlling him with Excalibur, which triggered him greatly.)  Such a waste of an interesting relationship development.

 

And I ask again: where is orza getting his facts from?  I swear he knows stuff that we don't about what goes on BTS!

Edited December 9, 2015 by Mathius

[InsertWordHere]

Frankly, the entire mission to save someone who has already died and was carried away on a gurney makes no sense, even though it sounds like it could be "fun" to watch.   I wonder if the writers will have Regina say, "I wish I did this with Daniel", or if they would interpret that to have been wrong.  Why not save everyone she unfairly killed?  Where do you draw the line?

I agree. There are so many ways they could have had Hook die that would have justified going to the Underworld for him, but Rumple tricking him isn't one of them. They could have had him get into Charon's boat (which was already there), body intact. They could have had his soul taken like Phillip's was. I am a Hook fan, but he's a century old pirate who committed villainous acts for the majority of his life and Emma had already extended his life once by keeping him alive after he should have been killed by Excalibur in Camelot. It would be different if he was someone like Daniel whose life was unfairly cut short or even if they had done this one of the many times Charming has "died." Even Rumple was only resurrected because Neal wanted his help to get back to Henry and Emma.

[Camera One]

That is it's entire purpose in life. It's not art, it's a consumer product.

 

I doubt A&E sees it that way.  They would probably be insulted. 

[KingOfHearts]

I don't think the show would be as good as it is if it wasn't at least partially for the art form. It's not exactly a money-making cash cow right now. A&E have pursued ideas that aren't really that popular with audiences that you can tell originate more from their hearts and minds than it does from focus groups or marketing executives. Just my two cents.

Edited December 9, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

There are so many ways they could have had Hook die that would have justified going to the Underworld for him, but Rumple tricking him isn't one of them. They could have had him get into Charon's boat (which was already there), body intact. They could have had his soul taken like Phillip's was.

That's what's so frustrating about the writing of this show for me. Most of the major problems could be easily fixed without affecting the big picture plot other than to make it make more sense. I guess they wanted the super-dramatic scene of Emma lowering his body, sobbing over him, and then not wanting to release his hand as he was wheeled away on the gurney, but a trip to the Underworld to save him would have made so much more sense if he'd just vanished the way Rumple did when he stabbed Pan and himself, if the Furies had shown up and flown away with him, or if he'd jumped onto Charon's boat to take the Darkness into the Underworld with him. Rumple's betrayal would have just amplified the need to go after him, since he hadn't actually taken the Darkness with him.

 

Just as with 3B, where changing the reason for casting the curse from "only Emma can defeat Zelena, so we must reach her" when that turned out not to be true, to "Oh no, Zelena has sent her minion after Emma, who will be defenseless because she has no memory of what's going on, so we must reach her to protect her" wouldn't have changed the actual events but makes Snow and David look less like idiots and jerks. Or in 2B-3A if Belle left Rumple after learning about Milah and then went back to him after his sacrifice, it doesn't really change much about the story and makes her look less stupid and borderline nasty (for having no qualms for what she did and watched him do as Lacey). Or moving the return of Hook's heart to the clock tower and before the Frozen wrapup instead of after and at Granny's.

 

If they were all just flat-out wrong the entire time, it wouldn't be nearly as frustrating as it is with just tiny tweaks making a huge difference in how things work.

[Mitch]

Based on what we've seen in the writing, David doesn't care that much about Hook, and the main reason he would go is because of Emma.  Technically, there were other people that each of them would rather save on a personal level.  Was Charming's mother *supposed* to have her life cut short by King George?   He wouldn't have gone out of his way to go to the Underworld to save her even though he loved her.  

 

 

 

 

In such a situation, they might have decided it was better not to explain it in the first place.  

 

Frankly, the entire mission to save someone who has already died and was carried away on a gurney makes no sense, even though it sounds like it could be "fun" to watch.   I wonder if the writers will have Regina say, "I wish I did this with Daniel", or if they would interpret that to have been wrong.  Why not save everyone she unfairly killed?  Where do you draw the line?

That Charming Hook thing is really weird...when I hear people write about their "bromance," I scratch my head...did I miss about five episodes. Hook only reallly cares about Emma and her parents and kid, just because they are her parents and kid. Its not like he is going to the Rabbit Hole and shoot pool with David, who always seems to be hold Snow's purse (while Hook is just mooning over Emma.)

 

But Once's version of the UW is more like Hell isnt it? All the bad people will be there and not the good people..(from Rump's description and the previews.) I would think that the good people go elsewhere.

[Mathius]

As I said before, there used to be a sort of friendship there, but yeah, "bromance" is probably still too strong a word for even that, since it was more of the "I've got your back" kind of friendship than the "let's hang out" kind of friendship.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Mathius

[KingOfHearts]

 

As I said before, there used to be a sort of friendship there, but yeah, "bromance" is probably still too strong a word for even that, since it was more of the "I've got your back" kind of friendship than the "let's hang out" kind of friendship.

I don't like how people use "bromance" in regards to Once. A&E called Charming's relationship with Arthur a bromance, and looked how that quickly turned out.

[RadioGirl27]

Based on what we've seen in the writing, David doesn't care that much about Hook, and the main reason he would go is because of Emma. 

 

That Charming Hook thing is really weird...when I hear people write about their "bromance," I scratch my head...did I miss about five episodes.

That's why I said it was MY headcanon that Charming cares a little about Hook. The writting for the relationship between those two is so inconsistent that, based on canon, I wouldn't call them friends. But, the same way that I refuse to accept the canon friendship between Emma and Regina, I have decided to accept my headcanon about the friendship between Hook and Charming. SQ shippers are not the only ones allowed to do that ;-)

Edited December 9, 2015 by RadioGirl27

[Mathius]

I don't like how people use "bromance" in regards to Once. A&E called Charming's relationship with Arthur a bromance, and looked how that quickly turned out.

 

Actually, on that case I'd agree about it being a bromance, at least on Charming's end.  He certainly acted (in both Camelot at first and in Storybrooke) like this was a bromance, but Arthur (again, in both worlds) did not truly feel the same.  It's especially amusing how pissed he was in Storybrooke when he found out the truth about Arthur.

[Rumsy4]

Jared is becoming something of a tween heart throb. Young girls squee over him the same way grown-ass women squee over Colin.

 

You have got to be kidding me. 

[Mathius]

I can see Jared having fangirls based on physical appearance (the casting department must be psychic, since something about the way his face and nose have grown makes him kind of resemble Robert Carlyle, who of course has legions of fangirls), but with that voice?  Really?  Puberty has not been kind to Jared vocally, which is a shame since his acting has improved.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Mathius

[jhlipton]

I didn't say that. Fact is that abc owns the show and A&E only have as much creative control over the show as abc gives them. Normally, that is an awful lot of control. Networks trust their show runners to do their jobs without micromanaging them, but at the same time networks are responsible for the content they broadcast so oversight is necessary.

 

Mark "Goofman" sped Sleepy Hollow down to where it's teetering on a cliff before Fox brought the hammer down.  So I think showrunners are allowed a lot of latitude until ratings drop at an alarming rate. 

 

Nimue marked everyone who ends up going there anyway. You would have to make some adjustments to the story, but why set it up when it doesn't make a difference?

 

The ones that Nimue marked were forced to go to the Underworld and stay there.  Instead, they went of their own choice -- just like Hercules and Orpheus.

[InsertWordHere]

There was a moment in Swan Song that really exemplified for me how sad the writing for non-crisis moments is on this show. It was the Charming family wanting to spend their last hours together at the diner. Not only because Snow and Charming just uncharacteristically gave up, although that didn't help either, but the fact that there isn't a single thing I (and apparently the writers) could think of for them to do besides have a last dinner at Granny's. Emma and Mary Margaret had some nice times at the apartment in Season 1, and Henry and Charming practiced horse riding and sword fighting in early season 2, and there was that one time in 3B when we saw Emma and Charming putting together a crib, but since then it's been so non-stop that I really have no idea what this family does in their quiet moments together. So Granny's it must be. Even Granny went somewhere else. Sad.

[Rumsy4]

So Granny's it must be. Even Granny went somewhere else. Sad.

Oh, man! That's just so so sad.

[Camera One]

Were we supposed to assume it was the middle of the night; thus, the closed diner?  That's why no one was on Main Street except for our idiotic, uh, I mean, intrepid heroes?

Edited December 13, 2015 by Camera One

[InsertWordHere]

Yeah, I think it was supposed to be late. This isn't the first time the gang has hung out in a seemingly closed Granny's. The dwarves (including Sleepy!) were just wandering around prowling the town (no judgement here, I'm a night owl too), I guess. It kind of fits with Leroy's barfly cursed personality. Or do they start work in the mines really early?

[Rumsy4]

Storybrooke looks like a Ghost Town inhabited by the Charmings/Mills/Hoods and the dwarfs. Even Granny's can be transported to any realm. As a location, the town has become generic and irrelevant except giving a reason to dress everyone for modern clothes. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

Storybrooke looks like a Ghost Town inhabited by the Charmings/Mills/Hoods and the dwarfs.

So much this. The writers have removed much of their nuances by taking away small town life. What I noticed through S1 was that the characters were consistent and well utilized. Recurring characters didn't just appear in their centric, vanish into Offscreenville for another seven episodes, and come back. It always made sense if a character was absent or not. The main characters interacted a lot more with side characters such as Whale, Red, or Archie. It wasn't just one-liners either - there were actual storylines and relationships. Nowadays it's closer to a wave hello as they drive by.

 

It's okay to have guest characters you never see again. Hansel and Gretel didn't need to be reintroduced to contribute. Tiny didn't leave a huge gap in the show. But the writers are so inconsistent about who they bring back and who they leave behind. (The Underworld will highlight this in great detail.) Why is Aurora at the Disney Princess Mothers Group, yet we never see her around town? Was she really necessary for that one scene? Why spend so much time setting up Lily through S4, only to drop her like a hot potato? She even got her own cliffhanger! Then you got characters like Graham, Jefferson or Will, who don't get the closure they deserve. The writers are obsessed with bringing in guest stars that they don't secure actors they could actually flesh out.

 

 

As a location, the town has become generic and irrelevant except giving a reason to dress everyone for modern clothes.

Replying in All Seasons.

Edited December 13, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Damon Lindelof was giving an interview on the problem when they wrote Star Trek 2 and people guessed the twist.  And he said this:

 

 

 

“We’re in a media culture where the audience is so sophisticated and they can crowdsource and Reddit this information,” Lindelof went on to say. “If they get a twist, you know, like the Edward James Olmos [twist] on Dexter or what happened recently on The Walking Dead, the audience basically crowdsourced exactly how [that twist could have happened] within hours of it airing. By the time it airs a month later, the audience just goes ’Duh!’ That’s not the storytellers’ fault. It’s just the sophistication [of the audience’s ability] to figure things out. It’s like, we’re up against this incredible creative algorithm.”

 

http://www.avclub.com/article/damon-lindelof-admits-he-fucked-star-trek-darkness-229128

 

What do you think about this?  Do you agree it's not the storyteller's fault?  We kind of get this on "Once Upon a Time" where they don't reveal the "twist" until 2/3 into the season, and by then, it may already have been speculated and guessed.  Does it ruin a twist if people already guessed it?

Edited December 18, 2015 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

Does it ruin a twist if people already guessed it?

The "aha!" surprise of the twist may be ruined, but if the story's done well, the story doesn't have to be ruined. The story should be solid enough to stand on its own even once you know the twist. With a good twist and a well-constructed story, it actually becomes better the second time through once you know the twist and can watch for the clues setting it up. I'd say it's better to have a well-constructed story without the huge surprise than a twist that's only a surprise because it came out of the blue. I think the writers of this show are too focused on creating the surprise at all costs, and as a result, the story isn't very satisfying. Instead of working so hard to have something be a surprise that they withhold all clues maybe they should work on creating something that works even if you've figured it out. They keep saying that the rabid Internet fans are a small percentage of the overall audience, so they should write for the general audience that barely thinks about the show from week to week. Those people will be surprised. If it's well-constructed, it'll still be satisfying in a different way for the obsessive fans because they can see the clues and have some anticipation for what it's building toward.