The Sleepy Hollow Therapy Thread - What went wrong with Sleepy Hollow?

[lucindabelle]

For me the problem is not one character, it's pace.

This show used to move halla fast. I was recapping for a different site and I remember having to add the words, "and that's all before the credits!" It was not one of those sus with long silent it's as they ran, or mopey bits as they explained to each other what everything meant and how they felt about it,

I had to rewind sometimes to catch bits of information flying fast and it semes like there were 20 beats per act.

Katrina sucks energy. Ec ause it's in the realm of emotions so nother style of writing comes into play, but inf airiness, now they're writing it that way even without her,

I was willing to overlook the blatant historical mistakes, like old English being spoken centuries after it really was, because of the fun of the thrill ride,

Now it's slow.

I also think they painted themselves into a corner with all the biblical stuff... It always raises the question why doesn't G-d just step in? They haven't figured out what to do, the bad angel thing was just embarrassing.

But mainly, it's slooooooow.

[DeLurker]

I realized while watching a fun ep, What Lies Beneath, that I am negatively anticipating a Katrina appearance that it detracts from my enjoyment.  KW's limited abilities aside, Katrina is so poorly written but I just know that somehow they are going to squeeze her in.  Whether by comment like "Katrina was right" a few eps back or by book ending her into the bumper prior to the ep ("Ichabod and Katrina insist that you don't miss tonight's Sleepy Hollow") and the final scene.  And instead of being evil because it is a rush, they've set it up so it will be all Henry and his rose thorn of evil's fault.

[DJG1122]

I realized while watching a fun ep, What Lies Beneath, that I am negatively anticipating a Katrina appearance that it detracts from my enjoyment.  KW's limited abilities aside, Katrina is so poorly written but I just know that somehow they are going to squeeze her in.  Whether by comment like "Katrina was right" a few eps back or by book ending her into the bumper prior to the ep ("Ichabod and Katrina insist that you don't miss tonight's Sleepy Hollow") and the final scene.  And instead of being evil because it is a rush, they've set it up so it will be all Henry and his rose thorn of evil's fault.

Me too! I thought to myself, okay it's been 15 minutes and no Katrina. Later, 30 minutes and no Katrina. I really thought we'd make it to the end without her, but no. At least, it was only a few minutes.

[MissAlmond]

I know I left therapy, but I’m already tired of reading in various forums (I know, I vowed not to LOL) about haters and the masses taking over the show.  However, since I’m in a better mood about the show, I won’t go all “I hate you, Mark Goffman!”  LOL

The whole “man out of time” label really could be applied to what went wrong with SH.   As recently as the 90's, the type of strong chemistry exhibit by Mison and Behaire, turning into something more wasn’t really contemplated much.  But if people did,  it was brushed aside with much more ease.  I was still watching soaps then and remember the chemistry between the characters of Alan-Michael and Gilly on The Guiding Light.  The chemistry was so strong that, not only the actors, but soap magazines, were waiting for the two of them to get together.  Instead, Alan-Michael was paired with Lucy and Gilly went on her way. And while you had two disappointed actors and some rumblings from fans, that was that.   Meanwhile, the grand, sweeping love for all time ala “Titanic” and “The Notebook” had women swooning.  Those love stories were the model and they did very well.

 

 

However, times have changed.  There are many couples -  interracial, interfaith, gay - who look  nothing like something from “Titanic.”  Commercials are already showing this shift.  You also have many couples who met each other at work. They understanding that,  indeed, friends can become lovers and there’s nothing unusual about that.  I also think most people understand in reality, one can be in love and still have an outside life - something movies and TV shows pretend is impossible.  So today when you see a couple who have chemistry, the thought that they could get together is a possibility. These type of couples may even have a more modern feel.   There is no need to bring in the Lucy’s.  Nor does a love story have to be One True Love either.  I believe this shift has even been noted as why romantic comedies aren’t the hot commodity they were in the 90's. 

 

 

I do believe there were viewers who came to SH who loved and wanted the “My heart will go on” type of love story Ichabod and Katrina represented.  I believe a lot of the writers probably came into the business in the 90's and that was the type of love story they were used to and comfortable with.   Once again, they were telling the truth when they said they didn’t get what made SH worked.  It’s interesting to note Baiers, who is younger, seems to have “got it” and this man isn’t even a creative.  But his career has started in a different time.  And then there's that pesky, outdated thinking that continues to pollute the entire entertainment industry - that  being the 18-49 male demographic is apparently the only ones who count.   It makes the whole “time travel” device they’re using to reset the show appropriate.   I hope we do get our season three and all of us, writers, fans, producers, can move forward and, this time time around,  take full advantage of having and understanding everything that can come with the gift of "a new day". 

[fantique]

^^^^^^^^^^ This is spot on. This fall has brought about huge disappointments and very pleasant surprises and the pleasant surprises came from shows that finally understood what we (general audience) are not here for. Also, I don't get the obsession with 18-49 male demo, when it's been said for a long while now that there is a lot to be gained from 18-49 female demo. How the corp guys ignore that household income distribution and allocation is 9 out of 10 times dependent on the females of the household is mind boggling to me.

 

They need to identify what we find compelling story telling. We don't always need to be happy about everything, but when the writers are treating us like idiots who don't know better and focus on the least opportune character story wise, well of course things go sideways.

Also, I keep being surprised at those silly attempts at generalisation of what the viewers want. Even if their money maker was the male demo and all male wanted the same thing, to think that to get more male viewers all they needed was stick KW into a corset was weird. The one generalisation that I think is slightly fair for guys is they love action, not simpering harlequin romances. Hot chicks with boring storylines lose them just as easily as chick flicks. It's the hot chicks + explosions/guns/swords/action that get them. Speaking broadly of course, and being intentionally over simplistic, I know there are sophisticated viewers in each category that will look below the shiny surface but since they cared about the more "casual" viewers, I don't understand why they went for that drag of a SL.

 

TV people need to wake up and realise this is 2015, everyone is a smarter viewer now. They just have to show goodwill (and will receive it in return from the viewers) and respect the contract they enter in with the viewer. Have broad outlines they know they can rely on, not go back on their premise and try to BS the viewers to make them accept some plot driven nonsense that we know is coming out of nowhere.

Edited February 22, 2015 by fantique

[MissAlmond]

 

Also, I don't get the obsession with 18-49 male demo, when it's been said for a long while now that there is a lot to be gained from 18-49 female demo.

 

Hell, there’s a lot to be gained from the over 49 demo, male and female, a group that’s really ignored.  I didn’t watch “Harry’s Law” but remember the fallout when that show was cancelled.  It had eyeballs but apparently not the right demographic eyeballs.  I attend movies at an art house theater.  When “The Exotic Marigold Hotel” came out, the place was packed for months with people outside the 18-49 male demographic.  Not only did these people see the movie, they also frequented the very expensive restaurants nearby afterward for dinner.  I’m sure these restaurants can’t wait for the sequel to be released LOL.

 

 

TV people need to wake up and realise this is 2015, everyone is a smarter viewer now. They just have to show goodwill (and will receive it in return from the viewers) and respect the contract they enter in with the viewer. Have broad outlines they know they can rely on, not go back on their premise and try to BS the viewers to make them accept some plot driven nonsense that we know is coming out of nowhere.

 

Not out of nowhere.  It comes from what worked in the past.  The saying “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” swings both positive and negative.   One reason there is currently sequel after sequel, remake after remake  in movie theaters is Hollywood not wanting to break what worked in the past.  Sometimes people need to be taken by the hand and led into the future where their eyes are opened.  That’s why, when I first came here, I said look up the story of Richard Donner and Marion Dougherty. Donner is a well respected director, yet Dougherty's guiding hand opened his eyes on new possibilities in casting.  Donner got it and others can too.  People do change which is why (hold your breath), I’m willing to do so for SH, yes even Mark Goffman himself.   I’m tired of raging against what can’t be undone. The last show I felt passionate about was "Bakersfield P.D."  and it's gone.  I'm hoping SH stays around.  So,  while I know this isn't true of others,  I'm personally, giving all involved, myself included, that new day.  Because maybe what the writers/producers needed was a guided hand too.  After all, in life, there are times when we all do.

[DeLurker]

However, times have changed.  There are many couples -  interracial, interfaith, gay - who look  nothing like something from “Titanic.”  Commercials are already showing this shift.  You also have many couples who met each other at work. They understanding that,  indeed, friends can become lovers and there’s nothing unusual about that.  I also think most people understand in reality, one can be in love and still have an outside life - something movies and TV shows pretend is impossible.  So today when you see a couple who have chemistry, the thought that they could get together is a possibility. These type of couples may even have a more modern feel.   There is no need to bring in the Lucy’s.  Nor does a love story have to be One True Love either.  I believe this shift has even been noted as why romantic comedies aren’t the hot commodity they were in the 90's. 

 

 

I do believe there were viewers who came to SH who loved and wanted the “My heart will go on” type of love story Ichabod and Katrina represented.  I believe a lot of the writers probably came into the business in the 90's and that was the type of love story they were used to and comfortable with.   Once again, they were telling the truth when they said they didn’t get what made SH worked.  It’s interesting to note Baiers, who is younger, seems to have “got it” and this man isn’t even a creative.  But his career has started in a different time.  And then there's that pesky, outdated thinking that continues to pollute the entire entertainment industry - that  being the 18-49 male demographic is apparently the only ones who count.   It makes the whole “time travel” device they’re using to reset the show appropriate.   I hope we do get our season three and all of us, writers, fans, producers, can move forward and, this time time around,  take full advantage of having and understanding everything that can come with the gift of "a new day". 

Not to be contentious, but I don't think times have changed that dramatically - I think that tv's representation has caught up.  I'm way older than these writers and all, but even when I was a kid there were interracial and interfaith couples (gay was still a hot button, shameful secret thing though).  Granted I grew up a military brat so interracial families were more common I suspect (I am the byproduct of one).

 

I'm mystified by the importance of that 18 - 49 male demo category - that covers a LOT of ground.  I can see where it might matter if your xbox or some other product who's industry naturally aligns with that group, but are they the sponsors?  And an axe wielding bad ass chopping off heads strikes me as a better draw for that demo than epic twu wuv, Mommy-Daddy angst (even if done by John Noble) and a corset.

 

TV people need to wake up and realise this is 2015, everyone is a smarter viewer now. They just have to show goodwill (and will receive it in return from the viewers) and respect the contract they enter in with the viewer. Have broad outlines they know they can rely on, not go back on their premise and try to BS the viewers to make them accept some plot driven nonsense that we know is coming out of nowhere.

So this.

[MissAlmond]

 

Not to be contentious, but I don't think times have changed that dramatically - I think that tv's representation has caught up.

 

 

    Which is exactly what I meant.  Real life usually changes long before it appears on the screen, in advertising, etc etc.  Sometimes even our own lives is a step behind.   I knew parents who protested schools having computers installed even though it was said this was the future.  Fast forward a few years later and these same parents never send their subsequent children to schools without them. 

Edited February 22, 2015 by MissAlmond

[phoenics]

Which is exactly what I meant.  Real life usually changes long before it appears on the screen, in advertising, etc etc.  Sometimes even our own lives is a step behind.   I knew parents who protested schools having computers installed even though it was said this was the future.  Fast forward a few years later and these same parents never send their subsequent children to schools without them.

I think Empire's success on Fox illustrates that people were hungry for a show like this - and it's not exactly about diversity - this is a show with predominantly black leads and supporting stars... people were hungry for a well-written show like that. People were hungry for a show that didn't "pretend" to be progressive, but that marginalized its PoC cast into tokens.

Goffman and company really screwed up. They screwed up BAD. First - they overplayed their hand - proving that they believed that the money was in marginalization of their poc stars and in the showcasing of their non-poc cast (even if they had to add to it). Even if it was more that they believed that showcasing their non-poc cast was the most important thing and the PoC characters were marginalized simply because they just didn't think about them, that's still HORRIBLE. I think that they thought the fandom online wasn't representative or they thought that it was more even with fans who were more into Ichatrina.

I think what bothers me is that they should have known better - they were just so focused on ignoring the fans who loved the Ichabbie chemistry - because they WANTED to tell the Ichatrina story...

I think Katia Winter's comments that "Abbie already had such a huge fan base" isn't just her view - I think the writers also think that too. I think some of them might even be looking to S1 thinking they should have made Kantrina BIGGER - if that's the case, they STILL don't get it. If Katrina had had a bigger role in the show it would have died - it started going downhill when more focus shifted to her in Season 1.

It should be a moot point now that they are killing Ichatrina - but if they drag another actress on the show to pair up with Ichabod - that will be the same problem all over again, regardless of whether or not they have chemistry. Because that isn't the show! Nothing should take away from Ichabod and Abbie as partners on the show. Nothing.

[pcta]

It should be a moot point now that they are killing Ichatrina -

I don't think we know this, do we?

[Indi]

- but if they drag another actress on the show to pair up with Ichabod -

 

Oh, I'm sure that's exactly, what they're going to do.

 

I don't think we know this, do we?

 

I think that going back in time to kill Ichabod, pretty much kills the Ichatrina ship, at least momentarily. That doesn't mean they won't try to revive it next season though.

[DearEvette]

I don't think we know this, do we?

 

Katrina may may not die, but Ichatrina is dead.  I mean, if Ichabod could forgive his wife for traveling back with the express purpose time to kill him (after trying to kill Abbie right in front of his face) ... he just isn't worth our time.  So I am thinking, yeah, Ichatrina is done.

 

 

I think what bothers me is that they should have known better - they were just so focused on ignoring the fans who loved the Ichabbie chemistry - because they WANTED to tell the Ichatrina story...

 

I would go so far as to say they not just ignored the fans who enjoyed the Ichabbie chemistry but that Goffman et. al. actively set out to suppress the Ichabbie chemistry.  You can not convince me that the S2 agenda wasn't in some large part about stopping the Ichabbie stuff cold.  The constant racing to Katrina's rescue, the corset & jeans, the date night... all of it was pointed right at the Ichabbie shippers.  'See, look, this is what we've been telling you. The Cranes are in love.' 

 

They grossly miscalculated,  they were so narrowly focused on the shippers, they forgot about the rest of the fans.  Because the vast majority of fans of the show are not necessarily Ichabbie shippers, but are Ichabbie fans.  Big difference there.  They couldn't figure out that people watched the show for Beharie & Mison's actorly chemistry not necessarily for their romantic chemistry.  They also forgot quite a number of fans are fans because of the diversity of the show and the the actors of color in supporting roles were not just tokens but fully realized characters. 

 

The sad thing is that looking back they could have made Katrina a bigger part of the show (and Hawley too) without sacrificing the Ichabbie partnership, without appearing to disrespect Abbie's place in the show, and without sidelining Jenny an Irving.  Had they been smarter about their storytelling rather than just blindly reactive, Goffman could have built a better fanbase for his pet.  Oh well.  We can only hope we can put the mess of S2 behind us, we get a renewal and that wiser heads prevail for S3 and onward.

[HalcyonDays]

They grossly miscalculated,  they were so narrowly focused on the shippers, they forgot about the rest of the fans.  Because the vast majority of fans of the show are not necessarily Ichabbie shippers, but are Ichabbie fans.

 

This is very telling actually, and a hallmark of Ichatrina shippers. The argument against those who disliked Katrina, her storylines and the overall character arc ws always - always - "You just don't like Katrina because you ship Ichabod with Abbie." No matter what argument and proof and logic you presented about Katrina and her story arcs, it always boiled down to "You just want Abbie and Ichabod to get together."

 

Uh no.

 

I think the writers had the exact same mindset. They were so focused on shipping, that they never took a step back and looked at the bigger picture, looked at how Katrina was being received as a whole, how her storyline was quite disturbing, how the characters were being damaged, how the rest of the show was suffering as evidenced by the ratings. To them, it was simply those pesky Ichabbie shippers complaining that their ship was not happening fast enough. But it was never about that. It was about putting a good show on TV, respecting all of the characters and writing good storylines.

[phoenics]

I so agree - especially about how the writers had an agenda this season - which was to "kill Ichabbie" pretty much.  The writers really didn't understand the fandom at all - I think they assumed that people who loved the Ichabbie chemistry were shippers and a minority.  They didn't understand that people were attracted to the DRAW of Ichabbie in the first place - romantic or not... and THAT was the major fan base.

 

I also take umbrage at the thought that it SHOULD ever have been about Ichatrina.  Katrina never even chem tested with Ichabod - how could they think Ichatrina could be something?  That's like replacing a heart surgeon with an orderly with no medical training and expecting a successful surgery.  Again - this points to some newer writers and people OTHER THAN Iscove thinking they could hijack the premise of the show... bait us with Ichabbie, bask in all of the diversity adoration, and then WHAM - change the premise of the show from batsh!t crazy fun thrill ride to Colonial Hart to Hart.

 

WTF.

 

It still makes me angry.

 

What makes me angrier is that they WASTED an entire season of this show and all of the goodwill it had built up for this train wreck - all because they were trying to teach the Ichabbie fans a lesson.

 

Assholes.

[shanndee]

....

 

It still makes me angry.

 

What makes me angrier is that they WASTED an entire season of this show and all of the goodwill it had built up for this train wreck - all because they were trying to teach the Ichabbie fans a lesson.

 

Assholes.

 

I so agree. What happened was a terrible waste of a "lightning in a bottle" success. I can only hope that the Ichabbie fans were successful in teaching TBTB a lesson. In the age of social media you cannot bait-and-switch and expect to get away with it. You also cannot "fix" that which wasn't broken without being taken to task for it. It is a lesson that many producers with an agenda should learn quickly and learn well.

[DJG1122]

This is very telling actually, and a hallmark of Ichatrina shippers. The argument against those who disliked Katrina, her storylines and the overall character arc ws always - always - "You just don't like Katrina because you ship Ichabod with Abbie." No matter what argument and proof and logic you presented about Katrina and her story arcs, it always boiled down to "You just want Abbie and Ichabod to get together."

 

It seems to me (after many years of social work and people watching) that the Ichatrina shippers imagine that they are Katrina and Ichabod is in love with them.  They feel that Ichabod has cheated on them with Abbie. It's a case of "Logic doesn't live here".

[HalcyonDays]

It seems to me (after many years of social work and people watching) that the Ichatrina shippers imagine that they are Katrina and Ichabod is in love with them.  They feel that Ichabod has cheated on them with Abbie. It's a case of "Logic doesn't live here".

 

Makes sense. Of course there is a level of insecurity here, because Ichabod has NOT cheated on Katrina with Abbie at all. When one has a strong relationship with a strong level of trust and honestly between a pair, another woman (or man) should not be a threat at all. But seeing as that relationship is very toxic with lies upon lies, then the reaction makes sense. Maybe that's why they are all praying for Ichabod to be killed off now. (while I pray for him to be free of the wife!)

[BigEasygirl]

I know I left therapy, but I’m already tired of reading in various forums (I know, I vowed not to LOL) about haters and the masses taking over the show.  However, since I’m in a better mood about the show, I won’t go all “I hate you, Mark Goffman!”  LOL

The whole “man out of time” label really could be applied to what went wrong with SH.   As recently as the 90's, the type of strong chemistry exhibit by Mison and Behaire, turning into something more wasn’t really contemplated much.  But if people did,  it was brushed aside with much more ease.  I was still watching soaps then and remember the chemistry between the characters of Alan-Michael and Gilly on The Guiding Light.  The chemistry was so strong that, not only the actors, but soap magazines, were waiting for the two of them to get together.  Instead, Alan-Michael was paired with Lucy and Gilly went on her way. And while you had two disappointed actors and some rumblings from fans, that was that.   Meanwhile, the grand, sweeping love for all time ala “Titanic” and “The Notebook” had women swooning.  Those love stories were the model and they did very well.

 

 

However, times have changed.  There are many couples -  interracial, interfaith, gay - who look  nothing like something from “Titanic.”  Commercials are already showing this shift.  You also have many couples who met each other at work. They understanding that,  indeed, friends can become lovers and there’s nothing unusual about that.  I also think most people understand in reality, one can be in love and still have an outside life - something movies and TV shows pretend is impossible.  So today when you see a couple who have chemistry, the thought that they could get together is a possibility. These type of couples may even have a more modern feel.   There is no need to bring in the Lucy’s.  Nor does a love story have to be One True Love either.  I believe this shift has even been noted as why romantic comedies aren’t the hot commodity they were in the 90's. 

 

 

I do believe there were viewers who came to SH who loved and wanted the “My heart will go on” type of love story Ichabod and Katrina represented.  I believe a lot of the writers probably came into the business in the 90's and that was the type of love story they were used to and comfortable with.   Once again, they were telling the truth when they said they didn’t get what made SH worked.  It’s interesting to note Baiers, who is younger, seems to have “got it” and this man isn’t even a creative.  But his career has started in a different time.  And then there's that pesky, outdated thinking that continues to pollute the entire entertainment industry - that  being the 18-49 male demographic is apparently the only ones who count.   It makes the whole “time travel” device they’re using to reset the show appropriate.   I hope we do get our season three and all of us, writers, fans, producers, can move forward and, this time time around,  take full advantage of having and understanding everything that can come with the gift of "a new day".

Brilliant post. And OMG! Alan-Michael and Gilly! You've torn my heart out all over again. *sobs* But seriously, so many couples and their organic chemistry filled stories squandered (I've lost count) because they didn't "look" like what the showrunners/execs thought they should. So glad it doesn't seem like we're going to lose this show or Crane/Abby (whether they go romantic one day or not) because of this outdated mind-set.

[phoenics]

It seems to me (after many years of social work and people watching) that the Ichatrina shippers imagine that they are Katrina and Ichabod is in love with them.  They feel that Ichabod has cheated on them with Abbie. It's a case of "Logic doesn't live here".

Going back to the idea that Katrina was never anything more than a plot exposition fairy in the first season (she wasn't supposed to survive beyond the pilot originally), Katrina never had a real characterization.

Goffman turned her into nothing but Ichatrina fan service. That's all she EVER was. The breathy whispers, the damseling, the uselessness... she was merely fan service for fans who saw themselves as her - her only purpose was to 1) keep Ichabbie apart and 2) be a self-insert for some fans.

Goffman and co miscalculated, thinking that those few fans were the majority - boy was he EVER wrong! In fact, I don't think there was ever any calculation at all - just a gross assumption that Katrina was the draw and that if she wasn't the draw, he'd MAKE her the draw.

Uh NOPE.

Jerk.

I remember Gilly and Alan Michael!! Her exit was so wrong. Gosh that was a long time ago.

Edited February 23, 2015 by phoenics

[jhlipton]

The last show I felt passionate about was "Bakersfield P.D."  and it's gone.

 

Has it really been 20 years since that quirky little show went off? I thought I was the only one who watched!

 

So glad it doesn't seem like we're going to lose this show or Crane/Abby (whether they go romantic one day or not) because of this outdated mind-set.

I wouldn't be complacent just yet. I think a "front order" of 9 episodes is pretty much guaranteed, but a lot depends on how Fox's 7 new pilots do (Frankenstein, Lucifer, Luther, Minority Report, Rosewood, Scream Queens and Studio City).  [None of which scream "diversity" to me...]  If even 2 beat SH's ratings, that could be it.

[BigEasygirl]

Has it really been 20 years since that quirky little show went off? I thought I was the only one who watched!

 

I wouldn't be complacent just yet. I think a "front order" of 9 episodes is pretty much guaranteed, but a lot depends on how Fox's 7 new pilots do (Frankenstein, Lucifer, Luther, Minority Report, Rosewood, Scream Queens and Studio City).  [None of which scream "diversity" to me...]  If even 2 beat SH's ratings, that could be it.

 

That's why I used the word "seems." But from what I've seen on other various boards, social media and heard from at least one insider who I trust because this person has been right on the money before as regards what's been going on with SH, it's more than likely that the show's effort to reset itself these last two episodes is indicative of FOX giving it a vote of confidence. All that's needed now is the last episode to bring in some solid numbers in the demos which I think it will. Tomorrow's epi is getting great word of mouth and promotion from the fan base. The ground swell has really been impressive. So yeah, at this point, I'd be more surprised if SH was cancelled whereas a month or so ago I would have been surprised if it wasn't.

[MissAlmond]

 

Has it really been 20 years since that quirky little show went off? I thought I was the only one who watched!

 

     I adored that quirkly little show!  I was smart enough to tape it but stupid enough to erase it. I still remember the episode where the captain was having - um - "performance" problems at home, so they brought in that woman with the cow to demostrate how she milked it.

 

Edited February 23, 2015 by MissAlmond

[kieyra]

Wouldn't it be awesome if the show got renewed and then we never needed this thread again?

[RiddleyWalker]

Wouldn't it be awesome if the show got renewed and then we never needed this thread again?

Even if it's renewed, and I certainly hope it is, there are things that various members here (i.e. ME) might think could be improved…even from Season 1. Perhaps we could change the thread at that point to "What Could Be Done to Improve Sleepy Hollow?"

[phoenics]

I think as long as Goffman is around, we'll always need this thread...

[jhlipton]

No show if perfect.  We'll always need a place to bitch "Why did they do that???"

[Indi]

Therapy is still needed, because as long as Goffman is in charge, the show will never be good or even fun. He is an awful storyteller.

[HalcyonDays]

Yeah, there are always little flaws with shows, so this thread is definately needed.

 

Now that the season is done, I am going to close the poll in a bit, and eventually delete it. But from my poll options:

 

Half thought Henry and/or Katrina would be gone. Henry dead - Check. Katrina dead - Check.

Some thought Hawley would be dead. Hawley dead gone - Check.

 

Moloch obviously isn't going to return - yet. And 22% thought LESS CFD, as opposed to 11% for NO CFD. But the way things ended, I would think NO Crane family drama will be in season 3 - thank god. Even Tom Mison says he's bored of it, so let's hope he can convince the writers of that too.

 

71% of you think that the show will be renewed, and I really hope you guys are right!! *crossfingers*.

[jhlipton]

71% of you think that the show will be renewed, and I really hope you guys are right!! *crossfingers*.

 

Of course we're right -- we predicted all that other stuff!!!

[HalcyonDays]

Of course we're right -- we predicted all that other stuff!!!

 

You better be right, jhlipton!! *grin*

[cynic]

This is part (most) of a comment I posted over on SpoilerTV. I didn't mean to write so much, but I guess I have a lot of feels about this show. I figure this is probably the better place for it, since you guys will understand and the SpoilerTV guy will likely whine at me. I left it over there as well, just to annoy him.

---

Like most it seems, I was very frustrated with this season. It lacked direction and cohesive writing. It also lacked the humor, fun, and just bat crap crazy that the show used to have. Most importantly, the powers that be lost sight of the show's best asset, their two leading stars and the lightning in a bottle chemistry between them. Shifting so much focus away from them and even away from the Apocalypse premise of the show and driving most of their plots through a weak secondary character was a huge misstep and pretty much sank this season. (I actually would argue that this mistake really occurred halfway through the first season with the introduction of the idea of a child and all the dumb family drama that sprang from it, my interest level dropped around Sanctuary). I just cannot fathom what was going through their heads to dump the original two awesome witnesses fighting evil horsemen trying to bring about the apocalypse premise to the point that they killed off Moloch less than 25 episodes into the show's run and replace it with a warlock's daddy issues and his parents' marital woes. What the heck?

In my opinion, Jeremy should have never been introduced. Katrina should have been revealed as evil when she emerged from purgatory in the season one finale. It would have explained why she was so unhelpful and her general shadiness. Then, she could have been the big bad during season 2 together with Moloch, instead of being mind numbingly dull and a constant damsel. Plus, Katia Winter is a limited actress, but seemed to do better at evil than not (well, at least she stopped whispering kinda) and half the time she looked shady even when she wasn't supposed to be, so Katrina would have been much more tolerable.

Sadly, that didn't happen and the writers failed miserably at making Katrina into a good character despite trying to push her to the forefront all season. Her sudden turn and demise was a mess, but I'll happily take it because it was the only way to deal with such a problematic character in time to hopefully influence Fox into renewing the show. The changes also allowed the finale to regain some of the magic of the early 1st season episodes. The fun and magic were back for me. It gives me hope for what will come if we are fortunate enough to get a third season.

[HalcyonDays]

I'm still scrolling to find your post, cynic. Hopefully it wasn't deleted. In the meantime, what is it WITH this SpoilerTV guy person. He's attacking everyone, and pretending that he himself is being attacked (dear god, sounds like how certain people try to defend Katrina's actions). Dude, just DO NOT respond. Stop responding. He is taking everything anyone says personally. Sheesh.

 

I see TV Juriste is in there giving reality checks too. Excellent.

Then someone wrote this comment:

 

Her pregnancy was SEXIST?! LOL! Thanks for a laugh. That was actually one of the better things of this season, and it should have lasted longer.

 

I cannot with this comment....Can you imagine...? That would be absolutely horrible..... (ETA: The comment above was someone else's)

 

Thank you for doing a True Fan's work, cynic. Also, What. Are. These. People. Seeing. On. Screen

[TV Juriste]

I'm still scrolling to find your post, cynic. Hopefully it wasn't deleted. In the meantime, what is it WITH this SpoilerTV guy person. He's attacking everyone, and pretending that he himself is being attacked (dear god, sounds like how certain people try to defend Katrina's actions). Dude, just DO NOT respond. Stop responding. He is taking everything anyone says personally. Sheesh.

 

I see TV Juriste is in there giving reality checks too. Excellent.

Then someone wrote this comment:

 

 

I cannot with this comment....Can you imagine...? That would be absolutely horrible..... (ETA: The comment above was someone else's)

 

Thank you for doing a True Fan's work, cynic. Also, What. Are. These. People. Seeing. On. Screen

I had to turn off the notices so I don't see any of the new posts on that article. Sandra seems to be the crazy lady from IMDB. I truly think the posts from the most adamant Katrina fans need to be evaluated and discussed by a professional psychologist or sociologist. It's like they are not seeing what we're seeing and also not in touch with reality. They complain about the writing but say they like Katrina - even though Katrina is a character created by the writers. They act like she's real. . . .or something. It's bizarre.

[cynic]

I'm still scrolling to find your post, cynic. Hopefully it wasn't deleted. In the meantime, what is it WITH this SpoilerTV guy person. He's attacking everyone, and pretending that he himself is being attacked (dear god, sounds like how certain people try to defend Katrina's actions). Dude, just DO NOT respond. Stop responding. He is taking everything anyone says personally. Sheesh.

 

I see TV Juriste is in there giving reality checks too. Excellent.

Then someone wrote this comment:

 

 

I cannot with this comment....Can you imagine...? That would be absolutely horrible..... (ETA: The comment above was someone else's)

 

Thank you for doing a True Fan's work, cynic. Also, What. Are. These. People. Seeing. On. Screen

Oh no, it's actually posted in the favorite scene poll thread. I hope you didn't spend too much time in that 300 post craziness. 

[cynic]

I had to turn off the notices so I don't see any of the new posts on that article. Sandra seems to be the crazy lady from IMDB. I truly think the posts from the most adamant Katrina fans need to be evaluated and discussed by a professional psychologist or sociologist. It's like they are not seeing what we're seeing and also not in touch with reality. They complain about the writing but say they like Katrina - even though Katrina is a character created by the writers. They act like she's real. . . .or something. It's bizarre.

Yes, I think Sandra was Zanza on IMDB. She also posts a lot of crazy on Twitter.  And oh joy, look what she just posted today in the finale review comments. I wonder if she complains on shows with majority white casts about the racial imbalance. Oh wait, no I don't.

 

 Good for you. There was no reason to kill off the only white female character on the show who had survived this far. Am I racist..no. But I'm looking at the roster of who is left and I see one white character out of (let me count): 7 deaths and one almost character (Hawley). Katrina was ALMOST a regular character, but I saw so little of her that I really didn't get to know her. And I know I'll get the usual racist crap, but when you take a look at the full picture, you realize that there was one black character who died -NOT, and he had what I saw as a very non vital role. So, take it as you like. I'm just pointing out the egregiously obvious.

[HalcyonDays]

Oh no, it's actually posted in the favorite scene poll thread. I hope you didn't spend too much time in that 300 post craziness.

 

Ha ha. No, didn't spent that much time. The comments irritate me too much to read for long.

 

Am I racist..no. But I'm looking at the roster of who is left and I see one white character out of (let me count): 7 deaths

 

If you count the number of white characters in an ensemble cast, you might be a racist. (written like the I am a redneck jokes - appropriate maybe?) These bloody people...

[jhlipton]

Katrina was ALMOST a regular character, but I saw so little of her that I really didn't get to know her. 

 

 

WHAT???  I'm sorry but "Almost" a regular?  She was in every. damn. episode, and was the lead in about half. If you "didn't get to know her", that's the fault of the writers, not anyone else!

The stupid, it burns!  

[Dizzychickstar]

I don't how the SpoilerTV writer won any awards for writing. His reviews are written horribly. Very stilted, simplistic, even when you ignore the bias. I've read better writing from eighth graders! I felt the urge to reach for my EditPen of Doom. Moreover, forums, I thought, are places in which dialogue and differences of opinion are encouraged. They should not be places where the masses are bleating in unison. If so, there should be a disclaimer, like, All those who disagree with the writer of this site will be attacked and/or banned. Errr! Where is Ichabod's soapbox when I need it?!

[DeLurker]

I don't how the SpoilerTV writer won any awards for writing. His reviews are written horribly. Very stilted, simplistic, even when you ignore the bias. I've read better writing from eighth graders! I felt the urge to reach for my EditPen of Doom. Moreover, forums, I thought, are places in which dialogue and differences of opinion are encouraged. They should not be places where the masses are bleating in unison. If so, there should be a disclaimer, like, All those who disagree with the writer of this site will be attacked and/or banned. Errr! Where is Ichabod's soapbox when I need it?!

I object on behalf of all eighth graders.

[Monkshood]

I don't how the SpoilerTV writer won any awards for writing. His reviews are written horribly. Very stilted, simplistic, even when you ignore the bias. I've read better writing from eighth graders! I felt the urge to reach for my EditPen of Doom. Moreover, forums, I thought, are places in which dialogue and differences of opinion are encouraged. They should not be places where the masses are bleating in unison. If so, there should be a disclaimer, like, All those who disagree with the writer of this site will be attacked and/or banned. Errr! Where is Ichabod's soapbox when I need it?!

He also needs grammar lessons. It's embarrassing.

[shanndee]

Yes, I think Sandra was Zanza on IMDB. She also posts a lot of crazy on Twitter.  And oh joy, look what she just posted today in the finale review comments. I wonder if she complains on shows with majority white casts about the racial imbalance. Oh wait, no I don't.

 

 Good for you. There was no reason to kill off the only white female character on the show who had survived this far. Am I racist..no. But I'm looking at the roster of who is left and I see one white character out of (let me count): 7 deaths and one almost character (Hawley). Katrina was ALMOST a regular character, but I saw so little of her that I really didn't get to know her. And I know I'll get the usual racist crap, but when you take a look at the full picture, you realize that there was one black character who died -NOT, and he had what I saw as a very non vital role. So, take it as you like. I'm just pointing out the egregiously obvious.

 

That would seem to be the case. Someone at IMDB started a thread about it when they suspected it, comparing posts and styles and links. The result seemed accurate. I love that she stopped posting on the SH IMDB board when it become "overrun with haters and bullies". No, Zanza/Sandra, people came to their senses and they all started calling you out on your racist BS. (I kind of love how that particular board seems to have rehabilitated itself. Of course there are a couple of exceptions...but they are obvious trolls).

 

There are some who are floating the idea that she is also the Crane RPG...

 

Anyway. Speculation aside, I am very happy to see that common sense seems to the order of the day for the majority of the fan base. I just hope that more of them come back for S3 so we can really right this ship properly and send it on its way to more fun and adventure!

[HalcyonDays]

I don't how the SpoilerTV writer won any awards for writing. His reviews are written horribly. Very stilted, simplistic, even when you ignore the bias. I've read better writing from eighth graders! I felt the urge to reach for my EditPen of Doom. Moreover, forums, I thought, are places in which dialogue and differences of opinion are encouraged. They should not be places where the masses are bleating in unison. If so, there should be a disclaimer, like, All those who disagree with the writer of this site will be attacked and/or banned. Errr! Where is Ichabod's soapbox when I need it?!

 

And this SpoilerTV writer guy is just a replacement for the regular guy who does the reviews. However, the regular guy's reviews were just as bad, to the point of not being able to write the characters names correct. Katrina was Katarina. Irving was Irvine. Facts were wrong, grammer was terrible but - just like this guy - the other guy was definately a Katrina-stan. One commenter asked if English was his second language, and he said he had an English degree!! I wonder if original guy bailed at writing the last episode reviews because he was so upset over the Katrina-goes-evil story plot.

 

What I don't understand is that FOX allowed these terrible reviews to be allowed to go on. Okay, yes they were biased to Katrina, but these reviews are intended to get the audience to watch, right? As a professional organization, I would not want one of my products (the TV Show) so poorly represented. Personal blog reviews are one thing, but these guys get clips and what not, so they have to be somehow in the know.

 

When Deliverance came out, I think there were only one of two sites that positively RAVED about the episode. Everyone else decimated it with criticism.

 

With that crazy Sandra person and the Ichabod RPGer, again I really don't understand what they are watching. I can only deduce they just fast-forward thought all Ichabbie scenes, which gives them 5 minutes of viewing material, but they have no idea what's going on overall in the show. Ichabod RPGer got so angry she (yes, it's a she) bent her ring. Just insane.

 

If I was Mison, I'd find a way to get her to remove my character's picture from her twitter site. No need to reflect badly on myself and my character with that mess.

 

Also, Orlando needs to write a book. First, the clusterfuck that went on behind the scenes in season 2 AND how the cast reacted to all of the twitter and tumblr stuff on the Internet - the funny Ichabbie stuff and the delusional racists stuff. I would PAY MONEY to sit in a bar with these people and get the scoop!!

[catrox14]

WHAT???  I'm sorry but "Almost" a regular?  She was in every. damn. episode, and was the lead in about half. If you "didn't get to know her", that's the fault of the writers, not anyone else!

The stupid, it burns!

Katrina's Vortex of Stupidity seems to be her greatest power since it extends to the Katrina stans.

[ChelseaNH]

So, y'all are saying that what went wrong with Sleepy Hollow was somebody at SpoilerTV?

[catrox14]

So, y'all are saying that what went wrong with Sleepy Hollow was somebody at SpoilerTV?

 

I was making a joke about Katrina and her lack of power throughout the show aside from the Vortex of Stupidity

[HalcyonDays]

So, y'all are saying that what went wrong with Sleepy Hollow was somebody at SpoilerTV?

 

No. More like the thoughts and opinions and things that commenters at SpoilerTV tended to think was great, were the exact same things most of us thought what went wrong with the show. It's kinda scary, actually. For example, some of those people thought the demon pregnancy was a wonderful idea. Most of us here though, thought is was a terrible idea.

[jhlipton]

So, y'all are saying that what went wrong with Sleepy Hollow was somebody at SpoilerTV?

 

Katrina's Vortex of Stupidity (©atrox14) was so strong is pilled over into the Real World, infecting the fine folks [mrrrrph] at Spoiler TV.  How else to explain "Katrina was ALMOST a regular character, but I saw so little of her that I really didn't get to know her."

 

So you have it backwards, I'm afraid.

Edited February 26, 2015 by jhlipton

[archiesmom]

Yes, I think Sandra was Zanza on IMDB. She also posts a lot of crazy on Twitter.  And oh joy, look what she just posted today in the finale review comments. I wonder if she complains on shows with majority white casts about the racial imbalance. Oh wait, no I don't.

 

 Good for you. There was no reason to kill off the only white female character on the show who had survived this far. Am I racist..no. But I'm looking at the roster of who is left and I see one white character out of (let me count): 7 deaths and one almost character (Hawley). Katrina was ALMOST a regular character, but I saw so little of her that I really didn't get to know her. And I know I'll get the usual racist crap, but when you take a look at the full picture, you realize that there was one black character who died -NOT, and he had what I saw as a very non vital role. So, take it as you like. I'm just pointing out the egregiously obvious.

 

Ahh, the good old, "I'm not racist....but"....... Like anyone with half a brain doesn't know what comes next. Whoever said they are watching a different show is spot on. If they're looking for a fantasy love story set in the 18th century with a white cast I can recommend Outlander to them. Though, I think Claire may actually be a woman with too much agency for them. The best comment is the person who enjoyed the pregnancy storyline. I guess they just wanted a scene with Ichabod being present for one of the evil births.

[HalcyonDays]

I guess they just wanted a scene with Ichabod being present for one of the evil births.

 

Actually, most of them wanted Katrina to come back from the 18th century and be still knocked up, and season 3 would be about her "growing child" and the love that her and Ichabod would have raising this new child together. (No word if it was a demon child).

 

* InsertAbbieMillsEyeRoll *

 

If there was any hint of that, I would immediately bail. I'm not sure my love for Mison is such that I could watch any of that....*shudder*

[ChelseaNH]

Katrina's Vortex of Stupidity (©atrox14) was so strong is pilled over into the Real World, infecting the fine folks [mrrrrph] at Spoiler TV.  How else to explain "Katrina was ALMOST a regular character, but I saw so little of her that I really didn't get to know her."

 

So you have it backwards, I'm afraid.

 

If what y'all are actually talking about is the folks at Spoiler TV, wouldn't that belong in the media thread?