The Sleepy Hollow Therapy Thread - What went wrong with Sleepy Hollow?

[Indi]

Humpfh... I still don't trust Metzner. Haven't forgiven him for his retweet of the "real fans" tweet and the "haters" retweet - not to mention him just being stupid and taking criticism of his work way too personally - rather than listening. He was just as tone deaf as Goffman and he's the one who shoved Jenny into a sexist corner.

Nevermind wimpifying Headless - he turned BAMF Jenny into a sexpot who had nothing to do. He's a sexist jerk.

 

Does having a new showrunner mean there might be changes in the writing room? Because that's what I'm hoping.

[caseylane]

My guess is that Metzner was just being the good employee and parroting his boss. New boss, new words.

Edited April 2, 2015 by caseylane

[HalcyonDays]

My guess is that Metzner was just being the good employee and parroting his boss. New boss, new words.

 

I'm not sure about this, only because it's pretty unprofessional to respond to your viewers in such an angry way. He was responding to the severe criticism of the episode Deliverance (he didn' write that one), because he felt he was being attacked. He could have remained silent, but didn't. I think it was more he took it personally, and Goffman filled his head with "we must stick with our vision". But I feel Clifton Campbell is going to make sure his writers toe the line and respect the fans. There is an example of this about the show The Glades. It was cancelled abruptly, and he sent out a tweet apologizing to the fans and asking them to not direct anger at the show ( it wasn't shows fault) and then thanked the fans for their loyalty and love of the show. Very classy and respectful.

 

I have a really good feeling about this guy - hope he doesn't disappoint me.

 

Orlando Jones @TheOrlandoJones  ·  14h 14 hours ago

Hey @CCInnuendo thanks for a great chat sir. I'm very excited about the S3 musical episode idea & look forward to writing the script w/ you.

Clifton Campbell @CCInnuendo  ·  3m 3 minutes ago

Such great collaboration with @TheOrlandoJones but do I have to wait till 4/1/16 for pages?

 

I hope this means that's he's talking to all of the main actors to get their feedback and ideas and even some background drama. Orlando alone can educate him on the fandom. From what we've seen, Mison and Orlando really 'get it', so their input will be hugely valuable. I don't know what Beharie and Greenwood feel though, but I think they are similarily on board.

 

This is going to be a good season.

[MissAlmond]

 

I'm not sure about this, only because it's pretty unprofessional to respond to your viewers in such an angry way. He was responding to the severe criticism of the episode Deliverance (he didn' write that one), because he felt he was being attacked. He could have remained silent, but didn't. I think it was more he took it personally, and Goffman filled his head with "we must stick with our vision".

 

     I honestly don't believe Raven Metzner has a thick skin and really did take it personally.  I think he's the creative type sung about in "Chicago" : .. "He was a real artistic guy...sensitive... a painter" . . . 

 

 

I hope this means that's he's talking to all of the main actors to get their feedback and ideas and even some background drama.

 

   He might be, Campbell does seem that type.  But I don't think Sleepy Hollow: the Musical is around the corner. Re-check the date Campbell mentioned:  

 

 

Clifton Campbell @CCInnuendo  ·  3m 3 minutes ago

    Such great collaboration with @TheOrlandoJones but do I have to wait till 4/1/16 for pages?

Edited April 3, 2015 by MissAlmond

[phoenics]

My guess is that Metzner was just being the good employee and parroting his boss. New boss, new words.

He did far more than just "parrot" his boss. It sounds like you may not have heard about what happened on twitter and how he treated fans who were rightly upset at the turn the show took - never mind his sexist comments about LG and how that ended up turning her from a BAMF into a simpering sexpot who did NOTHING.

Edited April 3, 2015 by phoenics

[RiddleyWalker]

I was just browsing through TV Tropes and came upon this entry regarding "Creator's Pet". http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CreatorsPet I couldn't believe how well that fit the Katrina character on SH. Here's an excerpt: 

 

""Keep in mind that this isn't "The Scrappy with a big role", nor is it the Canon Sue, although there's a lot of overlap in both cases. The Creator's Pet is a combination of being:

Hated by fans (The Scrappy)
Loved (or worshipped) by the writers (Creator's Favorite)
Put into big scenes for no reason (Character Focus)
Talked up by the other characters (Character Shilling)

Unless it meets all of these criteria, it doesn't fit."

 

Yep…  

[phoenics]

I was just browsing through TV Tropes and came upon this entry regarding "Creator's Pet". http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CreatorsPet I couldn't believe how well that fit the Katrina character on SH. Here's an excerpt: 

 

""Keep in mind that this isn't "The Scrappy with a big role", nor is it the Canon Sue, although there's a lot of overlap in both cases. The Creator's Pet is a combination of being:

Hated by fans (The Scrappy)

Loved (or worshipped) by the writers (Creator's Favorite)

Put into big scenes for no reason (Character Focus)

Talked up by the other characters (Character Shilling)

Unless it meets all of these criteria, it doesn't fit."

 

Yep…

Yes that is completely and utterly Katrina.

Thanks for this - this describes so many characters over the years that just irritated the mess out of me - the first being Taylor Hayes Hamilton Forrester on The Bold and the Beautiful.

[Indi]

I was just browsing through TV Tropes and came upon this entry regarding "Creator's Pet". http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CreatorsPet I couldn't believe how well that fit the Katrina character on SH. Here's an excerpt: 

 

""Keep in mind that this isn't "The Scrappy with a big role", nor is it the Canon Sue, although there's a lot of overlap in both cases. The Creator's Pet is a combination of being:

Hated by fans (The Scrappy)

Loved (or worshipped) by the writers (Creator's Favorite)

Put into big scenes for no reason (Character Focus)

Talked up by the other characters (Character Shilling)

Unless it meets all of these criteria, it doesn't fit."

 

Yep…  

 

Perfect! She meets all those criteria.

 

[HalcyonDays]

Whoa, RiddleyWalker...that's so IT! So dead on I cannot...

 

Now add to that the fact that at every interview and at everyone moment, Goffman would talk endlessly about Katrina, changing the subject from her at every opportunity , well....

 

I've always placed Goffman as a card-carrying member of the Katrina Kult (tm DeLurker). His delusion and opinions quite mirrored those of the Kult.

[blixie]

 

Taylor Hayes Hamilton Forrester

 

Still after all these years I still HATE her, or more how she was used as the Madonna to Brooke's whore. UGH.

 

I agree with Metzner is just a thin skinned whiny baby. BUT I have to say he has written some good episodes, and as long as he shuts his fucking face unka fucker, and follows the new leader, I am fine with him staying on staff.

Edited April 3, 2015 by blixie

[phoenics]

Still after all these years I still HATE her, or more how she was used as the Madonna to Brooke's whore. UGH.

YES!! So completely true - even though she was nothing of the sort (and Brooke wasn't how she was lambasted either)... both were flawed, but Teflon Taylor never got called out for it until FINALLY after she came back from the dead after Hunter Tylo lost her hold on Bradley Bell.

But I digress - the whole Katrina/KW thing reminded me so much of that in terms of writer's pet stuff that sometimes I end up with B&B PTS, lol.

I agree with Metzner is just a thin skinned whiny baby. BUT I have to say he has written some good episodes, and as long as he shuts his fucking face unka fucker, and follows the new leader, I am fine with him staying on staff.

I still don't trust him and will always be uneasy with him on the writing team. He's one of the writers who thought writing a Biblical Apocalypse show was too hard.

[cynic]

Ha! I was trying to be nice. Though, she did shed a singular tear, that one time.....

.....

And there was also the time that someone made a comment about her outfit in the hospital and she got the doofiest, most moronic look on her face. I mean, I have no idea what expression she was going for in that moment (pleased? embarrassed? gassy?), but at least it was an expression.

I still can't get over how bad she was. Not only was her face a blank slate the vast majority of the time, but I remember being fascinated one episode how she managed to get through entire scenes without moving her body at all. She would do that high school drama thing of shaking her head while speaking for effect, but her arms never moved from their position of flat against her sides. Ugh. To be fair, the one scene in pretty much the whole series (up until she turned evil) that I thought she worked in was when she was kneeling on the floor, cleaning up the batcave and talking about Mary Poppins. She seemed a bit irritated. Maybe it was something she was really feeling at the time.

[phoenics]

Yeah - I remember that Mary Poppins scene and I remember wondering if KW was angry - she was acting like she was and she's never put that much oompfh into her scenes. It actually did look like she was pissed off for real.

That brought me a little bit of joy, lol.

[fantique]

Second, complaints that Abbie lost a lot (she did), what with her mother going crazy, Jenny at Tarrytown, her personal issues, etc, but Ichabod lost nothing. His kid and wife were with him. Well, not anymore.  At this moment, Crane has lost his career, the life that he knew, his wife and his kid (not like he knew him). The slate is clean. Just wanted to point this out.

That's what the finale was really successful at but that season 2 as a whole failed at. In Season 1, there was that idea that he was driven by his role as a Witness because he basically had no one except Abbie. The Sin Eater opening was both fun and heart wrenching because I could feel his sense of loss and melancholy. In season 2, he was Katrina's puppet and Abbie's ball and chain. All Katrina had to do was look teary eyed and he would brush off her latest con, and he couldn't keep on track with the mission to save his life which meant that Abbie had to pick up the slack, even when he and his wife were being in the way of that. He kept waxing poetics about their bond, their mission and the good ole times (when his BFF would have had the same value as a cow).

He wasn't layered, or even real. Notice, in season 1, he made fun of the newer generation's gimmicks, Starbucks and other stuff but he also was overjoyed by the progress and the realisation of some of his ideals. He certainly wasn't acting like "the 19th Century is where it's at". He was a lonely man missing his home, not a surly 90 year old grandpa saying WWII era values are the best.

Seeing Ichabod in action, made Abbie (and me) see him in a different life and my respect for the character shot through the roof. It felt a lot more substantial what he'd lost, not his family but his sense of pride, duty and honour. I hope they continue with this idea in the new season. Now that he has reconciled with the idea that what happened in the past is well and truly gone, he can find a sense of purpose in the here and now. While still keeping his sharp tongue and cheeky attitude. Sassy Ichabod is hilarious.

 

eta - contradictory storytelling:  Katrina knowing she was pregnant before Ichabod died per the Pittura Infamante episode.  Shady Katrina strikes again.  But Metzner responded when someone asked 'Oh it was a mistake."  How the heck do you forget a major..and I mean...MAJOR plot point like that?  Ichabod being ignorant of his impending fatherhood was the foundation of the entire back half of season one!

I am telling you, these new writers did not watch season 1, no way they did. 

 

^^ This post from Indi. Yup, that's exactly how I saw it too. I would bank that maybe one or two writers may have felt differently, but what could they do? They are not going to go against the boss, so they "fell in line". But as John Noble said "They had no clue what they were doing." Still blown away by this comment. LOL!

DearEvette, you totally reminded me of something I was going to post yesterday, then my mind drew a blank. Doug Aarniowski mentioned on his twitter that there are two people whose job is it to ensure continuity. These people need to be fired. Hire any SH fan out there - I'll take the job - because apparently we are the only ones who know what went on, on the show.

I loved John's comment because it really strikes at the heart of the matter. These people could not write a teleplay to save their lives. I'm not sure if they even understood dramatic structure in genre productions. I mean, this guy was in LOTR and Fringe, he saw what genre done well looks like and SH wasn't it this season. Also, what happened to him being the horseman of war and creating chaos in the town. They did it a bit in 203 and then there was him trying to wake up the dormant witches. I mean, this season's pitch was War is Coming and it will be friend against friend. If they were even remotely clever enough, they would have made it seem like the dissent between Abbie and Ichabod was his plan and not that his idiot mother was shitty spy who rationalises her son's evil way while Ichabod is trying to stay on both women's good side. That's what I thought they were going for at first but then it was clearly just an attempt to make Katrina more central to the plot.

 

From what I recall from this season the biggest jerk was Metzner and the two frat dude-bros who wrote Deliverance.  Metzner was the one who tweeted about haters, I think.  And isn't he also the one who thought Lyndie looked hot hence the leather skirt episode? However there have been a handful of other writers who really reached out and tried to connect with the AbbieMillsDeserveBetter hashtag, Melissa Blake especially.  And Heather Regnier and Damian Kindler are the ones that seem to be credited with writing the more Abbie centric episodes.  Not surprisingly these are three who are holdovers from s1.

Metzner pretty much by proxy sexually harassed LG. I can't believe a professional would publicly say that shit. He ruined an entire character introduction and two dynamics (Jenny as part of the team and the potential one between Hawley and Abbie) just so he could have her come on to someone onscreen!? And he couldn't do that with any other male who could just pop up for a scene or two that shows Jenny having fun? It had to be with the guy they had pretty much wrapped up as a present for Abbie? How did no one go "Hey, won't this make Hawley look like a total douche trying to go two for two? And how exactly will we write the rest of the season trying to cultivate him as a love interest for Abbie, with Jenny in the same scene with the team?" Solution: Jenny doesn't do anything for the rest of the season and Hawley is around more doing exactly the same thing she would have done.

It's actually a joke that in the season she's made a regular, and one that is longer as well, she gets to do less than as a recurring character in a 13 episode season. Now that I think about it, he probably didn't watch season 1 either or he would've been aware of Mr & Mrs BAMF because as fun as Hawley is with Jenny, I could never take him seriously when he spent the first half of the season making heart eyes at Abbie. Ugh, this dude makes me so angry. I hope someone brought his attitude and his "bright idea" to Campbell's attention. I want him to at least be in the dog house for a bit and he needs to only co-write lest he gets other sexy ideas. And he needs to STFU on social media because he's gross.

Edited April 3, 2015 by fantique

[Happytobehere]

I was just browsing through TV Tropes and came upon this entry regarding "Creator's Pet". http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CreatorsPet I couldn't believe how well that fit the Katrina character on SH.

Are you sure this was written pre- Struggle Witch because it is her from beginning to end.

 

Metzner pretty much by proxy sexually harassed LG. I can't believe a professional would publicly say that shit. He ruined an entire character introduction and two dynamics... I want him to at least be in the dog house for a bit and he needs to only co-write lest he gets other sexy ideas. And he needs to STFU on social media because he's gross.

Yes, he is disgusting, but Albert Kim should not be given a free pass. He too was a member of the Rah Rah Katrina Club, who made statements indicating that the fans who didn't like what was happening was the problem. He made fewer comments than Goffman and Metzner, but he was down with the Katrina Jammy Jam, and knowing that these two remain tempers my Yes New Show Runner joy, becuase I don't know how much say they will have.

[phoenics]

Are you sure this was written pre- Struggle Witch because it is her from beginning to end.

Yes, he is disgusting, but Albert Kim should not be given a free pass. He too was a member of the Rah Rah Katrina Club, who made statements indicating that the fans who didn't like what was happening was the problem. He made fewer comments than Goffman and Metzner, but he was down with the Katrina Jammy Jam, and knowing that these two remain tempers my Yes New Show Runner joy, becuase I don't know how much say they will have.

Not sure what happened here - but the quote you have attributed to me actually belongs to fantique. I agree with her - but she said it though - just clearing that up... this site is weird sometimes, lol.

[Dizzychickstar]

Finally discovered the awesomeness that is Fringe! Olivia is the kind of fleshed out strong female character that I'd like to see with Abbie, to the degree that she has a life outside the job. Family interactions, dates...

[cynic]

I've been rewatching season 1. It's not like I hadn't noticed the decline in quality, but seeing those early episodes now makes it even more striking. It's like when you gain or lose weight over time. You and the people who see you all the time know may not notice the gradual changes, but someone who hasn't seen you in six months might be shocked.

The stories were nutty, fun, and fast-paced. The show just threw everything out there, headless horsemen, demons, biblical apocalypse, Hessians, freemasons, etc and hinted at big conspiracies. The town was full of people, and not just people who were villains or were going to die, but random people who were just there in scenes. And Abbie was a full fledged lead. In those first few episodes, it could be argued that Abbie actually had more focus and development than Crane did. The later episodes just got smaller and smaller with Goffman's laser focus on Katrina and the CFD. It's still mind-boggling to me that he got rid of the freemasons in one fell swoop and had a witch kill Moloch so easily and without fanfare in the middle of season 2.

I'm so irritated that he's gone on to Limitless which will probably run for years on CBS after running Sleepy Hollow into the ground.

[DeLurker]

I'm afraid to go back and watch season 1.  I suspect it will just make me a bitter bitter person.

[Yolapukka]

I think the writers need to sit down and marathon a season of Seinfeld. I'm not joking, for a show about nothing, they managed to jam an awful lot of plot into a half hour comedy. They managed to carry off a main plot, one or two subplots and there were often arcs that carried through  several episodes or throughout the season. Right now, the Sleepy Hollow writers are at least trying to make things happen after the reductive vision of last season that shrank down the show. I will give the writers huge marks for trying to put more into an episode, but right now it's not hanging together as well as it could because the energy is being sucked out of the main plot by poor pacing.

Edited October 18, 2015 by yuggapukka

[vanarnd1]

I think a problem also that is still somewhat ongoing is that the plot works better when Ichabod is in more of a support role as opposed to the driving force. In Season 1 a lot was happening to Abbie early on (Corbin dying,her issues with Jenny, being targeted by Moloch) and seeing her react and try to deal with these things in the present was really interesting. We got some flashbacks to Ichabod in the past, but they were used to help move the plot along and there was a good balance there

 

Once the show being to shift toward focusing on the past characters, Ichabod's conflict and drama went to the forefront and it grinded the show to a halt. I think the Season 3 balance is better than so far than Season 2, but we are still seeing a lot of Ichabod and his issues take prominence. If they keep overdoing the Betsy Ross flashback scenes, then they risk bogging down the show in the same way.

[cynic]

I agree, vanard1. Abbie was front and center in early season 1, which made sense because she was our audience intro and the person that grounded the show in our reality. A lot of the plot was driven by her and she carried most of the weight of the emotional development with her loss of Corbin, transition from being a denier, accepting her role, and making amends with her sister. (The scene with her and Jenny in the interview room was one of the most emotional and one of the best scenes in the series). She even got plenty of flashbacks of her own and visits with Katrina in the beginning.

 

I love Crane and Tom Mison is awesome, but I don't think Crane as a character can carry the focus, at least not the way they write him. He really hasn't had much growth in the series. He was a believer by necessity pretty much from the start and has always been shown as being progressive, so he hasn't really even had to adapt that much except in regards to technology. His rants, while entertaining, are basically all the same too. The most growth that he has had was the disillusionment with Katrina and the death of his love (both literal and figurative), but that really wasn't explored and doesn't look like it will be. He's very one note and the writers relied too heavily on his fish out of waterness and then they brought out other fish which really did him no good! Even his relationship with Abbie seemed to stagnant or almost have negative growth until this season. He was quick to risk his life in the third episode so she wouldn't be alone with the Sandman and they obviously cared deeply for each other in the SinEater, but after that he clearly did not act in her best interest time and again and they were written to be at odds often, but with really no good (or at least interesting) reason. And then he just up and left her with a word for 9 months.

 

I'm glad that season 3 seems to be ceding a lot of the focus back to Abbie. I do think she's the better protagonist. With Crane's realization of repaying Abbie for her kindness and his search for his place in this world, I hope that Crane also sees more development and emotional growth. On a shallow note, I'm probably the only one, but I hope his growth results in some change to his outward appearance. Before the show ends, I'd love to see Crane adopt more modern clothes, but ones that nod to his colonial past.

[vanarnd1]

I agree Cynic, the Ichabod we saw in the first half of Season 1 seemed to be much more selfless and supportive of Abbie. I think the issue is once he began to have a more personal stake in things (finding out he had a son and that Katrina was in purgatory) he became to choose self interest over being trustworthy to Abbie (as we saw with the map).

 

Now that is understandable to an extent, and it did set up the dramatic Season 1 ending, but the rift that was caused from Ichabod's choice should have been discussed and addressed early in Season 2, Instead Goffman in his love of Katrina doubled down on CFD, which required Ichabod to have blind trust and faith in his family and go against Abbie repeatedly. And it went on for so long without him being called out on it because Goffman only cared Katrina, that there was never really any time to change course since so many episodes were already produced once FOX stepped in.

 

And now the new TPTB is in somewhat of a tough spot because the viewing audience is so allergic to any mention of Katrina that trying to use the past as a learning opportunity for Ichabod is difficult to work into the story. And it is better that they are focusing on Abbie more, but as you said I am not sure what their plan is to stop Ichabod from becoming stagnant. When you think about it, there should be a lot of depth to explore for what Ichabod has gone through. I think there could be an opportunity for more serious dialogue about the difficult adjustment of being in the present and how that has affected his mindset and choices, but like you said it seems like they still mostly use it as comic relief.  And even though I like those comedic moments and I still think the Ichabbie chemistry is there, it does feel like the show is trying to use these moments as a stopgap to not have to dig into the real issues as much as they could, when I think that could actually benefit the show in the long run

[cynic]

Yeah, they're definitely in a pickle, because addressing the loss he must feel from being out of time would certainly force them to address the loss of his family and nobody wants that. Also, it would be a bit tricky to address it on the more generic "I miss my own era" side, because it would be like "hey, Abbie, I really miss the 18th century, you know, that lovely, simpler, more noble time when people regularly died of dysentery and I COULD HAVE OWNED YOU." Awkward.

 

I really have no idea what they could do with Crane. I feel like he's just at loose ends. Maybe if he settled in and embraced being here. I wish the show had kept the reenactors and the antique bookshop. I feel like he needs his own friends and interests. Maybe he could start a historical society or teach or something. If he had legitimate reasons to be around and access rare books, that would give him both a job, interaction with others, and the means to research the motw. 

[Free]

I agree Cynic, the Ichabod we saw in the first half of Season 1 seemed to be much more selfless and supportive of Abbie. I think the issue is once he began to have a more personal stake in things (finding out he had a son and that Katrina was in purgatory) he became to choose self interest over being trustworthy to Abbie (as we saw with the map).

 

I agree, vanard1. Abbie was front and center in early season 1, which made sense because she was our audience intro and the person that grounded the show in our reality. A lot of the plot was driven by her and she carried most of the weight of the emotional development with her loss of Corbin, transition from being a denier, accepting her role, and making amends with her sister. (The scene with her and Jenny in the interview room was one of the most emotional and one of the best scenes in the series). She even got plenty of flashbacks of her own and visits with Katrina in the beginning.

 

Everything turned to Crane melodrama and the show lost balance that it had back in S1 when it focused on Abbie's personal stakes in being a witness and how it affected her.

 

The stories were nutty, fun, and fast-paced. The show just threw everything out there, headless horsemen, demons, biblical apocalypse, Hessians, freemasons, etc and hinted at big conspiracies. The town was full of people, and not just people who were villains or were going to die, but random people who were just there in scenes. And Abbie was a full fledged lead. In those first few episodes, it could be argued that Abbie actually had more focus and development than Crane did. The later episodes just got smaller and smaller with Goffman's laser focus on Katrina and the CFD. It's still mind-boggling to me that he got rid of the freemasons in one fell swoop and had a witch kill Moloch so easily and without fanfare in the middle of season 2.

 

The writers threw away everything and made it Crane family drama full time and it was just a boneheaded move, especially since it killed the momentum S1 had going for it, it was a fun show.

[kieyra]

Just posting this here so as not to clutter up the media thread further.

 

Never been a super fan of SH, became more interested in the behind the scenes drama than I was in the show itself (especially after S1).

 

But I have to say that I cannot believe they simply returned to the same well and brought us Sexy Betsy Ross.

 

They should have just cancelled the show if they were going to do the same crap. 

[fantique]

I'm so irritated that he's gone on to Limitless which will probably run for years on CBS after running Sleepy Hollow into the ground.

Oh, thanks for letting me know about this. I will make sure to avoid this show like the plague then. I mean, I had my reservations just on the whole movie-to-TV thing but thought about trying it out because...Bradley Cooper but he's only producing it so who cares.

 

Yeah, they're definitely in a pickle, because addressing the loss he must feel from being out of time would certainly force them to address the loss of his family and nobody wants that. Also, it would be a bit tricky to address it on the more generic "I miss my own era" side, because it would be like "hey, Abbie, I really miss the 18th century, you know, that lovely, simpler, more noble time when people regularly died of dysentery and I COULD HAVE OWNED YOU." Awkward.

 

I really have no idea what they could do with Crane. I feel like he's just at loose ends. Maybe if he settled in and embraced being here. I wish the show had kept the reenactors and the antique bookshop. I feel like he needs his own friends and interests. Maybe he could start a historical society or teach or something. If he had legitimate reasons to be around and access rare books, that would give him both a job, interaction with others, and the means to research the motw. 

Oh, this would be a great idea. He basically needs a life outside of Abbie and being a witness. 

 

Cynic and vanarnd1, you guys read my mind because I was coming here to discuss the same topic. The show, intentionally or not, is designed to centre our emotional grounding around Abbie. When the narrative gets away from her too much, it feels strange. Ichabod is first a strange dude who rants, then starts to be seen as a partner and someone to trust/rely on but then kind of becomes an agency-lacking jerk. I think the citizenship storyline is a step in the right direction. As long as they don't have him put that above all else -we should be seeing him do the  balancing act too-, then it should be good.

It will bring about what you mention, I hope. He will be more integrated and slowly nudged forward but still keeping the things that make him unique. I also agree it's time to modernise his clothes. At least the boots if nothing else. They can keep the coat forever but the rest needs to slowly disappear.

 

I know the show is great at cooky-crazy fun but there being only emotional depth and resonance with one half of the leading duo is structural weakness in the narrative. Ichabod being exactly the same as when the show started is a problem. It worked then but stagnation is death in TV and only idiots never change their minds. I think the writers, and some fans that are there for the fish out of water stuff, are using his initial identity as a crutch because it's safe and familiar. I think the writers are also wary of going off course by changing something they perceive to be a selling point of the show.

Edited October 15, 2015 by fantique

[fantique]

Found this on the tumblr and it gave me the sads.

 

 

 

glorfindely:
OKAY BUT CAN WE TALK ABOUT DEBORAH SAMSON, A WOMAN WHO DISGUISED HERSELF AS A MAN TO FIGHT IN THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION
AS A KID SHE GOT EDUCATED BY BRIBING NEIGHBORHOOD BOYS TO TEACH HER WHAT THEY LEARNED IN SCHOOL, AND ENDED UP BECOMING A TEACHER
IN 1778 AT AGE 18 SHE ENLISTED IN THE ARMY, UNDER THE NAME OF ROBERT SHIRTLIFFE
SHE FOUGHT IN MANY BATTLES FOR THREE YEARS WITHOUT ANYONE SUSPECTING SHE WAS A WOMAN
SHE GOT INJURED TWICE (STABBED IN THE HEAD AND SHOT IN THE SHOULDER) BUT DOCTORS STILL DIDN’T FIND OUT HER SECRET
SHE WAS ONLY DISCOVERED DURING TREATMENT WHEN SHE CAME DOWN WITH BRAIN FEVER. BUT THE DOCTOR WAS NICE AND DIDN’T TELL ANYONE. INSTEAD WHEN SHE GOT BETTER HE SENT HER TO DELIVER A MESSAGE TO WASHINGTON
WHEN WASHINGTON READ THE LETTER HE WASN’T EVEN MAD HE JUST DISCHARGED HER AND WROTE HER A MESSAGE AND GAVE HER MONEY TO GET BACK HOME
SHE WENT BACK HOME AND GOT HERSELF A CUTE MAN AND HAD THREE KIDDIES
SOME YEARS LATER SHE GOT SUMMONED TO DC WHERE SHE GOT A PENSION AND LAND IN EXCHANGE FOR HER SERVICE (WHICH PAUL REVERE HELPED TO ARRANGE)
SHE DIED AT THE AGE OF 66, AND IN 1983 WAS NAMED OFFICIAL HEROINE OF THE STATE OF MASSACHUSETTS
PLEASE LET US TALK ABOUT THIS AMAZING WOMAN

Oh sleepy writers...

[Watermelon]

Never heard of her. She sounds amazing...to the point where I'm shocked no one has turned her story into a movie.

[Free]

Never heard of her. She sounds amazing...to the point where I'm shocked no one has turned her story into a movie.

 

That would've been an amazing character just based on that description alone.

[Haleth]

I gave up on SH somewhere toward the end of season 2 because I could not stand Katrina.  So when I heard they killed her off and were doing a reset I thought I'd give it another try, only to find out they've replaced Katrina with and even more repulsive female character, Betsy Ross.  Seriously, Show?  Monsters and demons I can buy, but a swashbuckling female hero, running around in her corset and pantaloons, turned me off again.  No thanks.  

[kimberella]

The "Wait and see!" from Clifton Campbell and Leigh Dana Jackson turned out to be very much like Moloch's "Come and see!" to the Mills sisters, a traumatic and ugly experience. From the moment they announced their best thing ever in the form of Sexy Betsy Ross, it was clear the mindset hadn't changed at all. This is not surprising, considering that the writing room is not that different and that TPTB still live vicariously through Crane.

 

So nothing has really changed. They just split the character of Katrina into two, SBR and Zoe, so on their own they aren't as annoying as that flop witch, but the rest remains the same. They're still ignoring all the issues that sparked the Abbie Mills deserves better hashtag. CC has taken the show's already formulaic writing to new extremes. Crane rants and whines, still as self-centered and entitled as ever, while Abbie smiles benignly to his often harmful antics. Abbie is still treated as a work horse with no right to an onscreen love life.

 

My biggest fear comes from something LDJ said once during his meltdown on Twitter, when he mentioned one of his biggest achievements, when it comes to representation for black women: a black female character kissed the white male lead. Incredible feat, it seems, but now I'm scared that this is, what they are planning for Abbie in the last episode, so that they can consider their hands clean.

[Free]

Abbie is still treated as a work horse with no right to an onscreen love life.

 

That's what makes it so 1 sided.  In S1, at least it was a fun partnership, but then S2 onwards got bogged down with Crane's family drama and now his uninteresting love life.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

After that recent interview with Cliffy, the fandom dragged their asses on Twitter.

Leigh was trying to do more damage control tonight.

[Free]

After that recent interview with Cliffy, the fandom dragged their asses on Twitter.

Leigh was trying to do more damage control tonight.

 

They never learn.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Benihana?

 

BENI FUCKING HANA?!

 

 

I'm sure Abbie gave BROKEabod more than twenty bucks.

 

But he takes the Stage Five Clinger to the Mickey D's of Japanese cuisine? 

[Free]

Benihana?

 

BENI FUCKING HANA?!

 

 

I'm sure Abbie gave BROKEabod more than twenty bucks.

 

But he takes the Stage Five Clinger to the Mickey D's of Japanese cuisine? 

 

Still mooching off her...

[LydiaMoon1]

Disclaimer:  I didn't watch the latest episode.  This opinion is based solely on the two episodes I have watched this season. 

 

I wish SH had opted for a different approach to S3. Rather than going for suspense (ala the movie, Alien), I wish they had chosen the non-stop action of Aliens, the sequel, in order to grab new viewers and/or entice old viewers to return.  I just found the show’s pacing to be tedious. <shrugs>  Maybe their approach will work in the end, but the show's poor ratings don't give me optimism.

[Yolapukka]

 

• Worst of all, I still think the show treats Abbie like a sidekick.

 

 

When the show was at it's best, Abbie was the clear lead and Crane was her partner, If either of them was to have been relegated to sidekick, it was him as the goofball fish out water. The show works best when Abbie's viewpoint is the one written to. Crane works well as the hook to hang the show on but Abbie is the relatable character.  If the new showrunners really want to course-correct, they have get back to what kept the show grounded and and use that base to get a little crazy and take some risks, because so far they've been playing it safe and formulaic. They are depending too heavily on the MOW to thrill but  some of the monsters have looked just plain silly and there have been few moments that managed to startle or scare, although there still have been some. If I'd had my druthers they would have kept C Thomas Howell on as Abbies' boss for longer than a single episode and they could still have introduced Daniels as a fellow agent. There would have been more shock attached to boss-dude's death if we hadn't known he was doomed shortly.

Edited November 12, 2015 by yuggapukka

[Free]

I wish SH had opted for a different approach to S3. Rather than going for suspense (ala the movie, Alien), I wish they had chosen the non-stop action of Aliens, the sequel, in order to grab new viewers and/or entice old viewers to return.  I just found the show’s pacing to be tedious. <shrugs>  Maybe their approach will work in the end, but the show's poor ratings don't give me optimism.

 

Agreed, that's what made S1 fun to watch.

[kieyra]

When the show was at it's best, Abbie was the clear lead and Crane was her partner, If either of them was to have been relegated to sidekick, it was him as the goofball fish out water. The show works best when Abbie's viewpoint is the one written to. Crane works well as the hook to hang the show on but Abbie is the relatable character.

 

 

I think I've posted this before but can't remember where: I'm having such a hard time getting a handle on Abbie this season. I feel like she's got these walls up with everyone, just keeping them all at arm's length. Maybe there's some story reason I'm supposed to remember that she's always got her guard up, but it seems like it must not make her very accessible to new viewers. Maybe NB is just over it, and I wouldn't blame her, but it's the little things like telling Crane to 'mind your business' about her personal life. I know she's always been on the stoic side, but I feel like there was a lot more warmth/humor (and at least a touch of vulnerability) when I fell in love with the character in S1.

 

Would love to hear other thoughts or be told I'm wrong. 

[Free]

I think I've posted this before but can't remember where: I'm having such a hard time getting a handle on Abbie this season. I feel like she's got these walls up with everyone, just keeping them all at arm's length. Maybe there's some story reason I'm supposed to remember that she's always got her guard up, but it seems like it must not make her very accessible to new viewers. Maybe NB is just over it, and I wouldn't blame her, but it's the little things like telling Crane to 'mind your business' about her personal life. I know she's always been on the stoic side, but I feel like there was a lot more warmth/humor (and at least a touch of vulnerability) when I fell in love with the character in S1.

 

You're right, S1 had a great partnership going and then she takes a backseat in S2 onwards.  The show is very 1 sided from Ichabod's character and only some from Abbie.

[kieyra]

You're right, S1 had a great partnership going and then she takes a backseat in S2 onwards.  The show is very 1 sided from Ichabod's character and only some from Abbie.

 

It's not just that, it's that she also keeps Ichabod at arm's length and treats him like he's a big, slightly embarrassing dork. This tells the audience that we don't have to take Ichabod very seriously--but we also don't know why Abbie doesn't take him seriously. Which brings us, in a roundabout way, back to your main point, which is that they destroyed the partnership.

 

I go back and forth on shipping these two, but either way I mourn the loss of the S1 chemistry. I need to stress that I've never been as dedicated a fan as some of you folks and I may have missed a lot of stuff when I skipped Katrina episodes, but I feel like Ichabod is still basically Ichabod, and the part that is 'broken' is that they are writing Abbie as an ice queen cop for some reason, which I don't think was her original archetype. I don't know, maybe I'll try re-watching S1 and see if I'm actually just full of crap. 

 

Either way, I feel like the chemistry is gone because the writers aren't letting it exist. 

[Free]

It's not just that, it's that she also keeps Ichabod at arm's length and treats him like he's a big, slightly embarrassing dork. This tells the audience that we don't have to take Ichabod very seriously--but we also don't know why Abbie doesn't take him seriously. Which brings us, in a roundabout way, back to your main point, which is that they destroyed the partnership.

 

I still don't know why Abbie is treated like this when she's the co-lead.

[cynic]

I agree that Abbie was more of the central character and the more relatable one when Sleepy Hollow started. I think the show started to lose its way when the writers moved away from that. Crane is the flamboyant one and he gets all the press, but Abbie was really pivotal to grounding this crazy show and allowing it to work and have emotional weight.

I also agree that it seems like Abbie is kinda a cipher this season. She seems more closed off as a character and the show doesn’t delve into her emotions that much. She has the screen time and things happen to her, but we don’t really get to see how she feels about them. We saw her reacting to Corbin’s death through her talks about him, her face at the funeral, his ghostly visits. We saw her dealing with her guilt about Jenny through the Sandman and that beautiful scene in the jail. She talked about what she wanted and she reacted to things. She even had flashbacks. I don’t know what she’s thinking now. I don’t know how she feels about Daniel. He got to tell her his feelings. She hasn’t expressed anything and told Crane to mind his own business. She may be in jam due to Jenny and Joe, but she doesn’t seem particularly concerned. She just wants them to cool it. She got hurt in the tooth fairy episode, but instead of seeing how that affected her, the story was more about Jenny’s feelings and developing Pandora. And yes, I feel like Nicole Beharie isn’t as expressive as much this season. I don’t know if that is a conscious choice for Abbie or if she’s just over it. Whatever it is, the whole package is just less satisfying.

Lastly, I also miss the urgency of the two witnesses dealing with the apocalypse, Moloch, and the four horsemen in season 1. We knew what the stakes were. It was the end of the world and demons among us. We didn't know exactly how it would happen, but we knew that it would happen if our duo failed. We also saw their personal investment with Abbie's losing so much as a child due to Moloch and Crane's connection/time travel due to Headless. Now, Abbie and Crane just seem to be in a generic supernatural show fighting random monsters that any genre fan has seen before, conjured up by a villain who we have no idea what she wants or what it has to do with our stars. What are the stakes? What is the emotional connection? Why is Pandora wreaking havoc on this particular show as opposed to bothering the Winchesters? There's nothing here that makes me care. And without that, I really need to enjoy the chemistry between Crane and Abbie and that's not there either.

[Free]

I agree that Abbie was more of the central character and the more relatable one when Sleepy Hollow started. I think the show started to lose its way when the writers moved away from that. Crane is the flamboyant one and he gets all the press, but Abbie was really pivotal to grounding this crazy show and allowing it to work and have emotional weight.

 

That's why their dynamic worked and they worked well off each other before the writers messed with it.

 

Why is Pandora wreaking havoc on this particular show as opposed to bothering the Winchesters?

 

It does feel like low rent Supernatural.

[Indi]

I have no idea if Goffman, Campbell and the writers consider Nicole Beharie the ugliest woman ever, if they hate Abbie's guts or if they actually think she's too black for love, both romantic and friendly, but the show has reached such ridiculous levels, the whole thing is deserving of mockery. I bet they all have their own #AnyoneButAbbie and #AbbieDeservesWorse tattoos.

 

To this day (including the preview for next episode), everyone got and is getting love interests, except her. Her co-lead, the entire supporting cast, guest stars, villains and even Daniel will probably end up with his own love interest. Damn! That's some harsh treatment on the writers' part. What's wrong with those guys? What do they have against her?

 

Why doesn't she have genuine friendships in a town, where she has lived all her life? It's so bizarre and twisted to isolate her this way! I don't think that the fact that she's career oriented has to mean she has to be so utterly lonely. Her world is reduced to her sister, the other Witness and Joe. She's the lead, shouldn't her life be expanded, like most shows do with their leads? Her inner life explored through conversations with friends or at least with her sister? Clearly not in this show.

 

So Ichy can have conversations and have his worries and feelings explored with Joe, but Abbie gets to... support him emotionally once again and reassure him she won't leave him? After everything he's done, mind you! WTF?!

 

I mean, here is a guy, who didn't give a fig about her... I was going to say months,  but let's face it, he never did and yet, to this day, she still has to reassure this man-child, that she won't leave him. I suppose it's too much to ask of him, to give her some moral support for a change. What about telling her she deserves a promotion, wherever that takes her? He knows she's not going to leave, until their mission is over. It costs him nothing and if she does leave, after they defeat evil, something tells me she won't disappear and go silent on him, because she's not an asshole. What does he do instead? Gloat about the fact that Daniel has been playing Abbie.

 

It's depressing.

[Free]

That's some harsh treatment on the writers' part. What's wrong with those guys? What do they have against her?

 

I've wondered about that since last season, if something happened or if they just didn't like her from the getgo so they marginalized her S2 onwards.

[Dizzychickstar]

All great points. Ichabod has just arrived(comparatively) and even he made friends...of course, they're all dead, but I think you see my point. Abbie's given people that know her or knew her...but no friends. And we know she appreciates relationships because she's had past romantic relationships(we haven't seen in real life or flashback) and the fun she and Ichabod, Jenny, and Joe sometimes have. Perhaps her silence on the current drama and unresolved issues with Ichabod(Daniel too) will be resolved and expressed in coming episodes. I certainly hope so.

[phoenics]

I honestly feel like most of this was Goffman's attitude about Abbie. Note how he couldn't bring himself to even mention her in interviews.

But I also think some of this is related to the fact that EVERYONE on the show right now except Zoey is directly related to Abbie. Reynolds, Jenny, Joe, etc... and eventually Abbie's father.

Crane only has zzzzZoe. That's because he's a man out of time - unless he has outside friends, all he has is Team Witness, so I kinda get it. I still think zzzzZoe represents the past for him though, or a comfortable compromise.

Even in the first half of S1 - everyone we met in the present day was connected in some way to Abbie, while only people/things from the past were connected to Ichabod.