Small Talk: The Quiver

[BkWurm1]

5 hours ago, tv echo said:

I've been watching Poldark - what is it with these 'heroes' not being able or willing to apologize to the women they betray?

I am so happy with my decision to stop watching after the first episode of the new season.  He was cleared of all charges, happily home with his wife who would soon get around to sharing the news they were expecting again.  Done.  Perfect.  Happily ever after!  ;) 

[dtissagirl]

21 minutes ago, looptab said:

From the spoilers thread:

I'd thought her to be white as well. The difference in perception of race from country to country is really curious - for example, I don't know why Hispanics are considered people of color in the US, and Italians aren't, even though there's not that much of a difference.

Yeah, I have to do some mental gymnastics to understand the concept of hispanic/latinx as a race, and I can only do it by separating it from the fact that I live in Latin America and the word "latina" means nothing to me.

[NumberCruncher]

5 hours ago, tv echo said:

I've been watching Poldark - what is it with these 'heroes' not being able or willing to apologize to the women they betray?

Probably because it's portraying the 18th century when women's opinions meant very little.  Men in those days could fool around and their wives couldn't do much about it as it was nearly impossible to get a divorce.  It's simply reflecting the realities of the age.  Thankfully, Demelza is awesome enough to give Ross glorious shit about it.

Edited November 21, 2016 by NumberCruncher

[kismet]

5 hours ago, tv echo said:

I've been watching Poldark - what is it with these 'heroes' not being able or willing to apologize to the women they betray?

I'm 2 episodes behind on Poldark :(

However, at least there is some historical basis for men feeling superior to females and not needing to apologize to women. I don't think it is right. And not every male over time believed that. But there is some historically based misogyny. So I can give a little bit of a pass for shows like Poldark or Outlander. What would be nice though is perhaps if these shows had the actors come on before/after the episode and explain that different times have different cultural expectations. That modern society has different expectations. There are some elements to humanity that remain true overtime, but there are somethings that have evolved.

[emarasmoak]

1 hour ago, dtissagirl said:

Yeah, I have to do some mental gymnastics to understand the concept of hispanic/latinx as a race, and I can only do it by separating it from the fact that I live in Latin America and the word "latina" means nothing to me.

Yes it is weird. I am a woman from Spain (which is in Europe), green eyes, fair skin, light brown hair. My brothers are dark-skinned and dark eyed (think Antonio Banderas). I have only lived in Europe, so I imagine that my cultural background is different from a latina from an American country. Speaking with friends from Argentina and Bolivia I see similarities but also many differences. When I have travelled I have found many similarities with France, Italy or Greece (people's looks, culture, food). Language and the literature are different, of course.

But when I travel to the States I am considered to be "Hispanic" or "Latina" (I have a very common Spanish surname). I respect that this is their definition. I am not sure if I would be a "person of colour". Antonio Banderas and Penelope Cruz are also Spaniards that lived in Europe before moving to the US, and I think that they sometimes are considered to be POC.

By the way, in Scotland, where I live, I am "White, non British".

Edited November 21, 2016 by emarasmoak

[kismet]

1 hour ago, looptab said:

From the spoilers thread:

I'd thought her to be white as well. The difference in perception of race from country to country is really curious - for example, I don't know why Hispanics are considered people of color in the US, and Italians aren't, even though there's not that much of a difference.

There is really not enough time and space to go into the depths of Race in America. It is pretty complicated and multi-layered. There are different legal and social aspects. And a lot of it changes on how you are using Race & ethnicity. It is really fascinating if you ever wanted to look into it.

But a lot of it comes down to geography and when the groups en masse entered the country. Italians come from Europe. Hispanics come from Latin America or some of the Islands. And depending upon the times, Persons of Color changed. There was a time when Italians and Irish in America were considered POCs. It's about more than just skin color.

Edited November 21, 2016 by kismet

[emarasmoak]

8 minutes ago, kismet said:

Italians come from Europe. Hispanics come from Latin America or some of the Islands. 

Well, when entering at the States I am classified as Hispanic although I come from Spain that is in Europe. That is why I still don't get It.

I understand that is probably too complex for someone that is not from the States. I would probably need to educate myself. It really seems to be fascinating.

Edited November 21, 2016 by emarasmoak

[dtissagirl]

16 minutes ago, kismet said:

Hispanics come from Latin America or some of the Islands.

Yeah, but this is the kind of institutionalized generalization that comes from, well, ignorance. The word "hispanic" literally means one who speaks Spanish, or lives in a Spanish-speaking country. No one from Brazil is hispanic by definition [nor anyone in French Guiana, or Suriname], but whenever I clear customs in the US, I'm told by government officials that I speak Spanish by being put into an official form as "hispanic".  So it's funny and weird and completely disconnected from the actual reality of living in Latin America.

[kismet]

20 minutes ago, emarasmoak said:

Well, when entering at the States I am classified as Hispanic although I come from Spain that is in Europe. That is why I still don't get It.

I understand that is probably too complex for someone that is not from the States. I would probably need to educate myself. It really seems to be fascinating.

I think that might go down to the Spanish Empire. The Spanish colonized a part of America back in the Day. America itself traces itself to the British Empire. So those outside of the British Empire are probably where the division lies. Spain seems to be the exception to the rule, because although part of Europe it has a strong colonial history outside of its European Identity.

Wikipedia has some basics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic_and_Latino_Americans

Edited November 21, 2016 by kismet

[kismet]

19 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

Yeah, but this is the kind of institutionalized generalization that comes from, well, ignorance. The word "hispanic" literally means one who speaks Spanish, or lives in a Spanish-speaking country. No one from Brazil is hispanic by definition [nor anyone in French Guiana, or Suriname], but whenever I clear customs in the US, I'm told by government officials that I speak Spanish by being put into an official form as "hispanic".  So it's funny and weird and completely disconnected from the actual reality of living in Latin America.

I'm sorry for your experience. And you're correct the realities often go far beyond how to fill out the forms and can be very disconnected. Customs is definitely not a perfected or necessarily intelligent system. The whole labeling thing gets really complicated and goes far beyond how one fits into a box. Latin America does encompass more than just Spanish speaking nations, especially since it's roots are also from the Portuguese Empire. I never implied that Latin America only has people of Hispanic Origin. Like I said in my original post race and ethnicity is complicated. Hispanics, however, in general do have countries of origins in Latin America & Spain.

Edited November 21, 2016 by kismet

[emarasmoak]

Thank you for your explanations, @kismet. I still find it a bit strange but I get some of the rationale ?

[dtissagirl]

23 minutes ago, kismet said:

I'm sorry for your experience. And you're correct the realities often go far beyond how to fill out the forms and can be very disconnected. Customs is definitely not a perfected or necessarily intelligent system. The whole labeling thing gets really complicated and goes far beyond how one fits into a box. Latin America does encompass more than just Spanish speaking nations, especially since it's roots are also from the Portuguese Empire. I never implied that Latin America only has people of Hispanic Origin. Like I said in my original post race and ethnicity is complicated. Hispanics, however, in general do have countries of origins in Latin America & Spain.

Oh, I've never had a bad experience in US customs. I was instructed to mark myself as "hispanic", and I did that. My point is, "hispanic" is not a race that exists in South America. It's a word that only denominates which language you speak. But it's a racial denomination given to Latin Americans when they go to the U.S. Which is a very funny experience when you're me, a total mutt with like 5 different races mixed, but without a lick of Spanish blood, who can't even speak Spanish.

Edited November 21, 2016 by dtissagirl

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, emarasmoak said:

Well, when entering at the States I am classified as Hispanic although I come from Spain that is in Europe. That is why I still don't get It.

I understand that is probably too complex for someone that is not from the States. I would probably need to educate myself. It really seems to be fascinating.

That's actually surprising to me. My understanding has always been that Hispanic/Latino(a) referred to Spanish speaking people from Central/South America. In my experience Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Greek etc are European or Mediterranean (Caucasian/White) on forms.  Brazilian technically isn't Hispanic since they don't speak Spanish but, I imagine most people don't know that.

Very interesting.

Edited November 21, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[Mellowyellow]

Random question of the day:

Was the smallville Oliver Queen grumpy too?

I like that actor when he was on Emily Owen MD and a bunch of other shows I watched. 

Did he end up with BC in that show?

[Chaser]

Nope. Ollie was not grumpy.

He did not. The most they did with them was hint at some fooling around. That was before heand Chloe got together and got married and made babies. 

Edited November 22, 2016 by Chaser

[MariaHill]

19 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Random question of the day:

Was the smallville Oliver Queen grumpy too?

I like that actor when he was on Emily Owen MD and a bunch of other shows I watched. 

Did he end up with BC in that show?

Nope, he was (usually) much lighter--quippy and charming. A bit of a jackass in the early days, and he did have an annual Shame Spiral For Plot-tastic Reasons that he always had to be dragged out of, but overall he was much more appealing (to me, anyway) than Arrow's Oliver. And he ended up not with BC, but with the character I suspect Felicity was mostly based on, Chloe Sullivan, Clark Kent's blonde hacker bff (and Lois Lane's cousin.) 

[Mellowyellow]

So they married him off to a random character? Was she a comic character? 

Did you guys like that ship?

I never watched Smallville. I always saw the ads with the Lana girl who looked mopey all the time. 

ETA:

OMG so you guys are telling me on another show OQ ends up with a Hacker Blonde????!!!!! 

Was she anything like Felicity?

Edited November 22, 2016 by Mellowyellow

[MariaHill]

Chloe wasn't exactly "random"-- she was an original character, but part of the main cast from episode 1. And yes, Chloe + Oliver = OTPest of all OTPs. :)

[Chaser]

Speaking of Chloe and Oliver, does anyone have any favorite fanfics to recommend? It's been awhile and I can't remember the ones I loved.

[calliope1975]

I'd quit Smallville long before Oliver Queen showed up, and I was *gasp* a Chlexer, but Chloe Sullivan is in my top 3 favorite lady characters. She was the best. She was smart, ambitious, and her Wall of Weird made her 12 steps ahead of everyone else in that oblivious town. And I quit in S4 - I'm sure she only got more awesome after high school. 

Edited November 22, 2016 by calliope1975

[Mellowyellow]

Ok so now that you guys have told me all this I think I might go and ease the sting of Olicity by watching Smallville. Which season should I start with this ship?

The character Chloe is a nice person right? Good chance I'll like her?

[Chaser]

27 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

I'd quit Smallville long before Oliver Queen showed up, and I was *gasp* a Chlexer, but Chloe Sullivan is in my top 3 favorite lady characters. She was the best. She was smart, ambitious, and her Wall of Weird made her 12 steps ahead of everyone else in that oblivious town. And I quit in S4 - I'm sure she only got more awesome after high school. 

Oh I totally went thru a Chlex phase. Verbal Judo and all that. I always thought there was so much protential there. MR and AM were the strongest of the cast and they could have knocked it out of the park.

I also went through a Chlark period. I was a huge fan of the Chloe is Lois theory early on. Chloe and Clark had some great moments. The whole episode of Blank, that slo mo kiss, etc... Looking at it in hindsight, I think I just wanted Chloe to get what she wanted. Clark was no catch.

Finally, I loved Chloe and Ollie. By the end of series I was just watching for them. Them and all their spork adorable-ness. 

Damn. Chloe was shipable. I think the only guy I could never get behind was Jimmy. 

[MariaHill]

58 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Ok so now that you guys have told me all this I think I might go and ease the sting of Olicity by watching Smallville. Which season should I start with this ship?

The character Chloe is a nice person right? Good chance I'll like her?

Oliver shows up in S6, so you get the whole relationship if you watch S6 - 10. (Fair warning, they're both with other people at first.)

Chloe has her flaws--she's confident in her smarts, insecure about her looks (due to her unrequited feelings for Clark), is kinda walled off emotionally when she and Oliver first get together until he breaks through, and sometimes thinks the end justifies the means; but I prefer that to Clark's self-righteousness tbh. She's also emotionally vulnerable under the snarky exterior, brave as hell, and willing to sacrifice herself for her friends/team. One of my fave characters ever. 

1 hour ago, Chaser said:

Speaking of Chloe and Oliver, does anyone have any favorite fanfics to recommend? It's been awhile and I can't remember the ones I loved.

The Chlollie community on Livejournal has fics cross-indexed by author, length, genre, season, rating etc. Might be a good place to start. 

[BkWurm1]

3 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Random question of the day:

Was the smallville Oliver Queen grumpy too?

I like that actor when he was on Emily Owen MD and a bunch of other shows I watched. 

Did he end up with BC in that show?

He had his grumpy moments but nothing like our Oliver.  Smallville Oliver could pull off being called Ollie without being a douchebag.   

2 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

So they married him off to a random character? Was she a comic character? 

Did you guys like that ship?

I never watched Smallville. I always saw the ads with the Lana girl who looked mopey all the time. 

ETA:

OMG so you guys are telling me on another show OQ ends up with a Hacker Blonde????!!!!! 

Was she anything like Felicity?

Yes and no.  Chloe and Felicity both hide behind a smile and quips but I'd say in very different ways.  Chloe was a reporter first and the hacking just kind of grew out of that and the need to find answers for Clark.  They both though are at the top of my list for favorite characters.  

Chloe IMO was treated worse than Felicity by the show (IMO totally screwed over by comic canon that eventually gave most of her accomplishments and dreams to her cousin- Lois was IMO awful on that show- though oddly I liked her better when she was dating Oliver.)  Also the show stuck Chloe with a bland puppy for most of seasons 6-8 who eventually got the Laurel Lance Martyr treatment without even putting on a mask.  To be fair, he was still better than Mayo but IMO, not much.  Hated him with Chloe.  She always seemed like she was forcing herself to settle for him.    That said, his existence didn't keep her from still being awesome.  It was easy to forget he even existed sometimes.  

And I mentioned she is awesome, right?  Smart, determined, clever, a little broken and by the end of the show, she was my hero, not Clark Kent.    

The actress has the most expressive face.  What she could emote in a look transcended frequently really clunky dialogue.  I know many loved her HEA with Oliver, and they did have chemistry, but I'm still writing Chlark fixes (even though after season 8 it took me two years before I stopped hating Clark.)    

2 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Ok so now that you guys have told me all this I think I might go and ease the sting of Olicity by watching Smallville. Which season should I start with this ship?

The character Chloe is a nice person right? Good chance I'll like her?

Chloe is absolutely worthy of rooting for.  

She and Oliver don't do any dating til the back half of the ninth season but you can't start with the ninth season because too much has happened to jump in then. It wouldn't make sense.  (And they were IMO attempting in that season to blow up Chloe and Clark's friendship to make room for Lois in Clark's life so they really marginalized her screen time til the back half of the season- forever bitter over the ending of season 8)  

If you are going to not watch from the beginning, I'd say start with the fifth season.  It tends to be one of my favorites for Chloe and is relatively kind toward the other characters as well while skipping ahead of the high school drama.    

Edited November 22, 2016 by BkWurm1

[Mellowyellow]

Thanks heaps guys! You guys know your TV shows! 

[dtissagirl]

6 hours ago, Chaser said:

Speaking of Chloe and Oliver, does anyone have any favorite fanfics to recommend? It's been awhile and I can't remember the ones I loved.

So I have 385 Chloe/Ollie fics listed on my Pinboard, and that's just the ones I remembered to pin, because I actually suck at doing that part:
https://pinboard.in/u:dtissagirl/t:chloe%2Foliver/

:D

[bijoux]

How long will I have to wait to see all three siblings interacting as grown ups on This is Us? Maybe in the MSF?

I do not get Kate's and Kevin's tastes for romantic interests at all. Olivia has moved ahead of Toby on my shit list. It probably has something to do with him having way less screen time this episode and 

Spoiler

Kate breaking up with him for at least a little while, though I don't count on it sticking.

But man, what a raging bitch. I don't understand what Kevin sees in her in the slightest. Yes, she's pretty, but there are plenty of pretty girls Kevin could find that don't go out of their way to insult their hosts. I did dig the kitchen scene with Kevin and Randall, though. In fact, I enjoyed all Randall's asides about his siblings' love lives.

Also annoying? Miguel. I don't care that he feels left out. He has kids of his own. Go celebrate Thanksgiving with them if you don't feel welcome.

[looptab]

I find that the more episodes i watch, the more I can't stand Rebecca. I don't know if it's her or I just can't stand Mandy Moore though, haha.

[bijoux]

I waver on past Rebecca, but I really think they should have got someone else to play the older one.

[bijoux]

Does anyone have tips for removing dust mites? Primarily from the mattress and bedding.

[Delphi]

I don't have tips on the mattress,  but I freeze my clean sheets overnight to kill anything that might be lurking on them.

[LeighAn]

After watching the full revival of Gilmore Girls I want an Oliver and Felicity scene like the one between Luke and Lorelai in Fall.

[NumberCruncher]

The GG revival...I'm thoroughly whelmed.  Oh and it officially has worse character stagnation and regression than Arrow which is saying A LOT.

[BkWurm1]

3 hours ago, LeighAn said:

After watching the full revival of Gilmore Girls I want an Oliver and Felicity scene like the one between Luke and Lorelai in Fall.

Ack!  It's only day one and I'm going crazy with not being able to watch this yet.  Why did i have to promise to wait to watch it when my little circle of friends can all get their schedules aligned!  :(  I so desperately want to be spoiled and desperately don't want to be spoiled at the same time.  

2 minutes ago, NumberCruncher said:

The GG revival...I'm thoroughly whelmed.  Oh and it officially has worse character stagnation and regression than Arrow which is saying A LOT.

I've read that all four episodes back to back is an awful lot of la, la, la's and quirk.  

[NumberCruncher]

2 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Ack!  It's only day one and I'm going crazy with not being able to watch this yet.  Why did i have to promise to wait to watch it when my little circle of friends can all get their schedules aligned!  :(  I so desperately want to be spoiled and desperately don't want to be spoiled at the same time.  

I've read that all four episodes back to back is an awful lot of la, la, la's and quirk.  

I won't spoil it for anyone, but your description of what people are saying is correct.  It is trying to be the quirky show it once was but it feels a bit flat now.   I think ASP's determination to do the ending she wanted to do 10 years ago actually worked against it because it doesn't really work with the respective ages of the characters.  And I'll just leave it at that.  But by all means, watch it for the nostalgia factor and no expectations and I think you'll probably enjoy it.  I didn't hate it but I do now believe it was utterly unnecessary. 

[Mellowyellow]

*whines*

The Hubby is making me watch that Dr Strange movie with him tomorrow. I don't want to but he wants a friend there so I have no choice. 

Is it really boring? Cuz it looks boring! 

[Sakura12]

As someone who watched Gilmore Girls sparodically, is the revival worth a watch?

[NumberCruncher]

17 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

As someone who watched Gilmore Girls sparodically, is the revival worth a watch?

Meh.  If you loved all of the random pop culture references and quirkiness then you'll probably enjoy it but the story left quite a bit to be desired.  It's basically a setup for a repeat of all the major plot points of the original series.  In fact, I can pretty much predict where the story will go from here should they do more episodes.

Edited November 25, 2016 by NumberCruncher

[BkWurm1]

24 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

*whines*

The Hubby is making me watch that Dr Strange movie with him tomorrow. I don't want to but he wants a friend there so I have no choice. 

Is it really boring? Cuz it looks boring! 

I confess I haven't seen it yet (want to -just have been busy) but I've only heard good things.  Full disclosure, Benedict Cumberbatch alone might be enough to keep me from being bored, lol.  The visuals are reported to be stunning so even if you find the storyline dull, you'll have something to look at.  

[LeighAn]

RE: Gilmore Girls

I liked all the Emily and Lorelai stuff and their grief over Richard. 

I liked the character development of Jess and think he had the best character growth of any character.

With Rory- her storyline was messy- I think I can see what they are trying to do and that's sort of parallel her life to Lorelai's. And therefore they had her making some pretty crappy life choices to justify the ending scene but I agree it doesn't fit with Rory's age. 

In terms of the romantic aspect because I always liked both Jess/Rory and Logan/Rory I didn't react as strongly to how the revival handle those relationship as others I saw on Twitter but I get why Logan/Rory shippers would be upset and Jess/Rory shippers were unfulfilled. But I think the show is definitely trying to make a case of a Jess=Luke Logan=Christopher which I always sort of expected anyway.

I really found the musical and montage sequences OTT and it took me out of the story a bit. 

Overall I enjoyed it but I'd be lying if I say I loved it. 

[BkWurm1]

1 minute ago, LeighAn said:

But I think the show is definitely trying to make a case of a Jess=Luke Logan=Christopher which I always sort of expected anyway.

As long as they don't try and say that Dean=Luke, I'm good.  

[LeighAn]

17 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

As long as they don't try and say that Dean=Luke, I'm good.  

There is a Dean/Rory moment but he has his own happy ending that doesn't involve Rory. 

If there is a sequel I think there will be a Logan/Rory/Jess plot. There's still a good case for either guy but let's just say Logan and Rory got dented. 

I forgot to add Paris Gellar is still the best! 

[dtissagirl]

I stopped watching the actual show sometime between Luke getting a surprise daughter, and Christopher [yuck] starting to happen. One day I quit mid-episode, I don't even remember when exactly. But I did watch the series finale.

So I watched Winter this morning. I still love Lorelai, I still hate Rory and all her white douche boyfriends, Paris is still my favorite, when I grow up I still wanna be Lane.

[catrox14]

My Thanksgiving Binge watch was The Crown on Netflix and was excellent. I don't know how historically accurate it is, but I found much of it emotional. Claire Foy was wonderful. I'm also watching "The Fall".  I really dislike Jamie Dornan but Gillian Anderson is a goddess always.  It's an interesting murder mystery with some uncomfortable subject matter. 

[Sakura12]

1 hour ago, Mellowyellow said:

*whines*

The Hubby is making me watch that Dr Strange movie with him tomorrow. I don't want to but he wants a friend there so I have no choice. 

Is it really boring? Cuz it looks boring! 

You can't really be bored with the visuals. But it isn't one of Marvel's best. 

ETA: The Crown is amazing. It got me rreally interested in learning more about the royal family. The Queen has led a very interesting life.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Sakura12

[NumberCruncher]

42 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

My Thanksgiving Binge watch was The Crown on Netflix and was excellent. I don't know how historically accurate it is, but I found much of it emotional. Claire Foy was wonderful. I'm also watching "The Fall".  I really dislike Jamie Dornan but Gillian Anderson is a goddess always.  It's an interesting murder mystery with some uncomfortable subject matter. 

I have The Crown in my Netflix queue so I'm glad to hear this and so much YES to watching The Fall.  Then again, my endless love for Gillian Anderson is probably tainting my opinion, heh.

[Chaser]

I enjoyed Dr. Strange much more than I thought I would. I ended up really liking it.

I kind of just finished GG. Kind of because I dozed thru Summer. I thought at times it tried so hard to capture GG that it parodied itself. Some things it got right though. Pretty much everything with Emily and Emily/Lorelei. I thought it was pretty solid with the supporting characters - Kirk, Taylor, Luke (the wifi gag was great), Michelle. I thought they captured Paris, even if I don't get the whole baby career thing. I really liked the Sookie scene. That was a moment that I thought they got GG.

Rory, Rory, Rory. It was like the show put a spotlight on my least favorite Rory. I loved Chilton Rory and Freshman Yale Rory. I didn't like later Rory so much and it was like they rehashed all that. Seriously hated everything with Logan and Paul. Dating Paul while sleeping with Logan who was engaged to another woman. I don't get that choice. Esp after the Dean and Lindsay mess. 

[MariaHill]

I never really liked Rory, but didn't mind her in the first two eps. By the end I was actively disliking her. Deciding to write what amounted to Lorelai's biography without getting her buy-in first, then pouting and going ahead even after Lorelai told her no? Sleeping with Logan again after she knew his girlfriend had moved in, even after he gave her an easy out by getting her a separate room on her stupid romp with his douchebag friends? Ugh, Rory, you suck. 

Always disliked Jess before, but he seems to have grown up into a relatively normal person and now I'm sure he deserves better than Rory. 

Paris was brilliant. Loved Sookie and Lane. As always, a little too much Taylor and Kirk. 

[Chaser]

Hated that Emily didn't get to see Lorelei get married.

Jess was my favorite of her boyfriends. He had issues and he messed up but I thought they had the best rapport and chemistry. I love that he grew up. He was still Jess but he got it together and was mature. He had actual character growth. Dean did too from the little we saw of him. None for Logan.

[wonderwall]

On 6/24/2016 at 10:39 AM, Chaser said:

 

Ignore the block quote