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S02.E08: Terror of the Faithful

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NOTE: Reign airs on Wednesdays in Canada, meaning that the episodes are very often viewed a day before they have aired in the US. Therefore please be aware that this thread will almost definitely have spoilers for those who wish to wait until Thursday night to view the new episode.

 

Quote

 

Protestants are harmed by Vatican inquisitors, and this creates discord between Mary and Francis. Meanwhile, Condé gets captured after he makes a bold declaration; Catherine fails at finding a suitor for Claude; and Narcisse gives Lola a ride home.

 

Trailer:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5Je-q_ZnC8&list=UUPWQWav6BpPvtanCtloXkiw

 

Producer's Preview:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im3c8WGc58w&index=2&list=UUPWQWav6BpPvtanCtloXkiw

 

Edit having seen the episode:

 

The only thing I kept thinking as the episode ended was, you know what, Catherine? Give the little spirits their revenge. Claude is not just a brat, she's a psycho.

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Hear, hear to that. What a monster. I don't feel an ounce of sympathy for her and her 'mother doesn't love me' spiel. She needs to die, preferably choking on flowers, too. And WTF was with Bash trying to buddy up with her? Thank goodness he got shot, otherwise we'd never have seen Kenna in this episode.

 

I think Bash was just trying to get her the hell out of court before she revealed anything or ruined his marriage for kicks. As for Claude's death, I honestly wonder how much harm her sisters could do to her? We had that scene last week where one of them yanked back Claude's neck, but it looked to be a more of an illusion Catherine saw...

 

Who else thought Francis and Lola were going to fall into each other's arms at the end of the episode? Gag me.

   

I did too, and ugh to that.

 

This episode was just riddled with plot holes. Mary and Conde actually figured out that the Protestants were trying to turn their minister into a martyr - that the bomb was a decoy, and probably never existed. Why then did they then proceed to not to do anything with this knowledge? For Conde not to realize that the fake bomb meant there was no bomb? For Mary not tell Francis that the whole point was to turn the minister into a martyr?

 

I'm with you on the idiocy on not informing Francis that he was accidentally creating a martyr, but I think the bomb thing was justified -- instead of assuming there was no bomb at all, they just thought it had actually been planted somewhere else, with the fake to make them lose time.

 

I had a thought about Claude and Narcisse. There was a real-life scandal when Elizabeth I was a young teen -- Thomas Seymour set out to seduce her, (presumably so he could eventually rule the country with her as his queen), and he lost his head for it, it was treason to the crown. Wouldn't sleeping with a "chaste" French Princess be just as treasonous? Narcisse sleeping with Claude might give Francis an excuse to execute him if they were caught in the act. The downside would be of course that Claude would have been publicly ruined, but she doesn't want to get married and anyway up till now everyone was just politely looking the other way about her; her marriage prospects are really low as it is.

 

Although if that doesn't work, perhaps Narcisse would be forced to marry her, which might nominally give him more power (Princesses couldn't technically inherit the throne in France, but that Royal Blood was nothing to scoff at), but she's also crazypants and maybe she'll murder him in his sleep.

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I assumed Conde was in on the plot to turn the minister into a martyr. No excuse for Mary's stupidity though. But everyone's written to be an idiot this season to further this Narcisse blackmail plot, except Narcisse and Cath. I really wish Cath was more involved in the political s/l. 

 

I miss Greer. I love Francis and Bash working together this season. Bored by Conde and his one facial expression. I dont know why the writers are pushing Mary/Conde so heavily. They've had a thousand scenes together and tons of suggestive dialogue,  and there is just no romantic spark there. IMO

 

Did anyone pick up on Bash actually having some sort of twisted feelings for Claude this ep?

 

Francis isn't allowed to have one win is he? I actually enjoyed his last scene with Lola. He needed that.

 

I thought this was a pretty boring ep overall.

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I had a thought about Claude and Narcisse. There was a real-life scandal when Elizabeth I was a young teen -- Thomas Seymour set out to seduce her, (presumably so he could eventually rule the country with her as his queen), and he lost his head for it, it was treason to the crown. Wouldn't sleeping with a "chaste" French Princess be just as treasonous? Narcisse sleeping with Claude might give Francis an excuse to execute him if they were caught in the act. The downside would be of course that Claude would have been publicly ruined, but she doesn't want to get married and anyway up till now everyone was just politely looking the other way about her; her marriage prospects are really low as it is.

 

It really depended on the court, the country and the era. One more salacious rumour isn't going to hurt Claude anymore, and her marriage chances are still there when someone remembers that the chance to control/ally with/use France means marrying a Valois. Real life Margaret whom this Claude seems to be based on was almost certainly not a virgin on her wedding night and this was a well known "secret". Yes everyone will look the other way if that means getting what they want most out of the deal. Thomas Seymour's conduct with Elizabeth was a little part of his downfall, but the other bigger part was his ever growing arrogance and power and supposed plans to usurp his brother in name and therefore  his nephew in fact although not as actual King (since Edward Seymour himself basically set himself up as King in all but name). In fact suspicious were on Elizabeth because it was thought she might have been egging him on for her own power, not necessarily because touching a Princess was automatically treason.  

 

Mary and Francis not talking to each other about anything feels very contrived, as does Mary/Conde, it's worse than with Bash except the one grace that there's no brother triangle, which is always the worst.

Edited by Featherhat

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I'm just thinking any pretext to get rid of Narcisse should be foremost in Francis's mind. Say he can't have Narcisse executed for doing Claude. But, Narcisse has presented himself as the representative of the Catholic Nobility. He's putting everything on the religious side of things. If he gets caught (and I mean caught, pants down in front of several cardinals and/or handfuls of nobility) in the act of sex with Claude -- who has just been pronounced a virgin by emissaries of the Pope himself-- he's revealed to be a power-hungry hypocrite. His position cannot possibly be strong enough to weather everything. He's getting way too powerful, and the other nobles are probably aware that he's the one whispering in Francis's ear. He's got to have enemies in the Catholic faction that are starting to get tired of him and all his power; not to mention that I doubt the majority of nobles think a religious war is a good idea. Put Narcisse in bed with Claude to boot and there's your pretext -- he is trying to become a ruler so hard that he's gone to the lengths of de-virtueing a member of the royal family.

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It really depended on the court, the country and the era. One more salacious rumour isn't going to hurt Claude anymore, and her marriage chances are still there when someone remembers that the chance to control/ally with/use France means marrying a Valois. Real life Margaret whom this Claude seems to be based on was almost certainly not a virgin on her wedding night and this was a well known "secret". Yes everyone will look the other way if that means getting what they want most out of the deal. Thomas Seymour's conduct with Elizabeth was a little part of his downfall, but the other bigger part was his ever growing arrogance and power and supposed plans to usurp his brother in name and therefore  his nephew in fact although not as actual King (since Edward Seymour himself basically set himself up as King in all but name). In fact suspicious were on Elizabeth because it was thought she might have been egging him on for her own power, not necessarily because touching a Princess was automatically treason.  

 

Mary and Francis not talking to each other about anything feels very contrived, as does Mary/Conde, it's worse than with Bash except the one grace that there's no brother triangle, which is always the worst.

 

Well also, Elizabeth was a heir to the crown, Claude was not. It would be scandalous and not good but not exactly treasonous. Whoever married Elizabeth had the potential to become King, not so with Claude.

 

Does anyone know if the writers mentioned any reasons for changing the names of Catherine's twins? So random.

 

Bash should have been calling Catherine "madame" or "your grace" or something. Sometimes it's the little things that bug. I don't know what the proper term would be exactly, but I just don't think Catherine would taught, encouraged, or let Bash call her by her first name.

 

I also thought Lola and Francis might hook up again at the end.

 

Did anyone pick up on Bash actually having some sort of twisted feelings for Claude this ep?

 

 

I didn't feel any vibes yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if he starts showing more romantic feelings for her soon.

Edited by ulkis

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I was impressed that the child version of Claude was played by the same little actress who plays Sarah's daughter in Orphan Black. For one so young she demonstrates a pretty amazing range.

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Lone Wolf here in that I will NEVER understand the appeal of Francis.   I am aware (peripherally) about history but the actor/character bores and repells me.   I always feel like I'm watching a Manbaby in a school play.   Bash will never be ready for Shakespear but for all his limits he doesn't come across to me like someone playing dress up in big boy clothes.

 

Now that Bash is off the table, I don't mind Conde in terms of interactions with Mary.   I actually kind of like them, again that may just be desperation to escape the Francis/Mary nightmare but the actor comes across as worldly if not sophisticated.   A very rogue character which is a lot more appealing than Francis's King in Diaperse.   Only thing I like about him is his mother, though so far I'm not loving her storyline this season.

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Lone Wolf here in that I will NEVER understand the appeal of Francis.   I am aware (peripherally) about history but the actor/character bores and repells me.   I always feel like I'm watching a Manbaby in a school play. 

 

:raises hand: He doesn't repel, but I don't love Francis at all. I wish they'd let him cut his hair shorter or grow it longer. With those curls right at his temple like that it makes him seem even younger than he is.

 

(Although I guess it's kinda good in terms of you can see how young a lot of these people were, bearing these huge responsibilities. So many times in historical drama you have people so much older than the people they portray were at the time a film is set. For something slightly related to reign, the movie Queen Margot - the actor who played Catherine de Medici's son-in-law was in his early 40s when the character was 18 during that time, and when I watch that movie there's always a disconnect for me because I'm like, really? You're that intimidated by Catherine? Which I wouldn't have if the actor had been younger.)

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I didn't feel any vibes yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if he starts showing more romantic feelings for her soon.

Oh man, I seriously hope they don't go there. As much as I love this show, that would be a deal breaker for me.

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Isn't Catherine's daughter who Nostradamus thought was dead but actually is not named Clarissa? Why wasn't her name in the bible? And I thought besides her Francis has those two younger boy siblings and now the just-mentioned Claude but there were a lot of names on that list.

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Catherine gave birth nine times, resulting in ten children (in order): Francis, Elisabeth, Claude, Louis, Charles, Henri, Margot, Hercule (later changed his name to Francis in honor of big brother), and the twins Joan/Joanna (I've seen both) and Victoria.  We know Francis, Elisabeth was married off to Spain in the pilot, we've seen Charles and Henri last season as little boys, and we just met Claude.  Louis is dead at this point if memory serves, so we won't meet him, Hercule and Margot are still very young like their two other brothers and the twins died as babies.  While Clarissa is fictional, the reason she wouldn't be in the bible is because she is illegitimate and evidence of Catherine committing treason against the French throne.  I have no idea why the show changed the names of the twins because there's no one else on the show with those names and the new ones don't have any significance, so that move gives me a twitch, but Catherine did have a lot of kids with Henri. 

 

As much as it annoys me that they changed the names of the twins for no reason, I did find that part of this episode very interesting.  Claude murdered her baby sisters out of jealousy yet Margot (presumably) still lives/exists.  I hope this isn't the shows way of telling us that they have no plans to introduce Margot.  Anyway, Claude is determined to not be married off (ignoring history here) to the point that she's publicly ruining her reputation.  I think that a mix of reality would work better in this situation.  Rather than trying to pass her off as a virgin bride, they should just say that Claude's youthful marriage left her jaded and determined to never repeat the experience after her husband's death, hence her actively trying to sabotage Catherine's efforts.  I assume Catherine will win out, so they could just introduce the Duke of Lorraine as her second husband who is more amused by her attempts to avoid marriage rather than scandalized.  Plus, Claude is Catherine's favorite daughter so it would be nice if that was part of the show's presentation of the relationship rather than giving us Margot with a different name. 

 

I do miss Kenna and I hope we get to see more of her as the season progresses.  Greer too.  Lola's fine when she's squaring off against Catherine but I think she's being overused this season.  I get why, but I've always found her the least interesting of the three living ladies in waiting so I'd prefer to have a little less Lola time.

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There was a quote from an author I read saying something to the effect of "sometimes the WTF? Highschool! tone of the proceedings becomes more understandable when you realise that these people really were teens and college age." I always think of that when I watch Reign.

 

Rather than trying to pass her off as a virgin bride, they should just say that Claude's youthful marriage left her jaded and determined to never repeat the experience after her husband's death, hence her actively trying to sabotage Catherine's efforts

 

That might have been better. Married off as an early teen and widowed and so not obligated to be a virgin might have had more potential than the petulant (psychotic) party girl. I will say though that that virginity test scene was pretty brutal

 

This whole Bash thing with her is just weird. I could buy that if Bash had been raised separately and then come to court as an 18 year old that he could get bowled over by a beautiful 16 year old before he realised she was his sister and then she convinced him briefly that Henri wasn't his father. But a brother who only had his acknowledged status to survive on, who had grown up with his very young at the time sister? WTF? I really have no idea why they included it or where they're going with it.

 

I think Margot has probably been amalgamated with Claude at this point, but if the shows ratings were better and 5 seasons looked likely to be on the cards then she might have popped up as needed.

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Catherine gave birth nine times, resulting in ten children (in order): Francis, Elisabeth, Claude, Louis, Charles, Henri, Margot, Hercule (later changed his name to Francis in honor of big brother), and the twins Joan/Joanna (I've seen both) and Victoria.  We know Francis, Elisabeth was married off to Spain in the pilot, we've seen Charles and Henri last season as little boys, and we just met Claude.  Louis is dead at this point if memory serves, so we won't meet him, Hercule and Margot are still very young like their two other brothers and the twins died as babies.  While Clarissa is fictional, the reason she wouldn't be in the bible is because she is illegitimate and evidence of Catherine committing treason against the French throne.  I have no idea why the show changed the names of the twins because there's no one else on the show with those names and the new ones don't have any significance, so that move gives me a twitch, but Catherine did have a lot of kids with Henri.

As much as it annoys me that they changed the names of the twins for no reason, I did find that part of this episode very interesting.  Claude murdered her baby sisters out of jealousy yet Margot (presumably) still lives/exists.  I hope this isn't the shows way of telling us that they have no plans to introduce Margot.

 

They showed Margot in the family bible, so she still exists in show world, I guess. I noticed the twins came before her though in the family bible. Maybe they switched it  so they could by the time Margot came along Claude was too old to be jealous of them.

 

I think  Margot will be too young to introduce properly in any case, there's really not much of point to do that I don't think.

Edited by ulkis

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I enjoyed this ep, though I have to wonder if this is the last we've seen of Lola and Narcisse. Craig Parker is so charming -- makes me wish he was on a different show that more people watched. He makes Narcisse a fascinating character.

 

I've read speculation (no spoilers, just fan speculation) that the show has foreshadowed that Francis and Lola's son will be killed. I can't see it, personally. Mary is the lead of the show, not Francis. The baby provides drama for her -- the child dies, and her life actually gets easier. Plus, if Narcisse is involved, it means Lola either leaves the show or the show can't go back to their Lola/Narcisse 50 Shades of Grey thing. I don't think they're ready to slam the door on that just yet. I also think shows have difficult time killing babies once they've left the womb. Unless they want to do a grief arc for the mother (who is Lola, not Mary), it's just unnecessarily dark.

 

Quite frankly, the fact that Narcisse has brought up that he doesn't want to hurt Lola's child "but he will if he has to" makes me think the baby will be fine. It's only when characters are promised safety that they're generally in trouble.

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Bash should have been calling Catherine "madame" or "your grace" or something. Sometimes it's the little things that bug

 

 

Actually it bugs me that there is anyone, other than MAYBE Mary and Francis, call her anything but Your Grace.  Not sure if Your Majesty was in use in France during this time.  (I think Henry VIII was the first to use that title in England; don't know if it had been imported to France.  Someone can correct me if I'm wrong). Either way, though, everyone would be calling her by an honorific, NEVER her first name, except possibly close family and then only in private and never when talking about her to an outsider.  Same goes, of course, for Mary, even before she becomes Queen of France since she is queen of Scotland, and Francis, once he becomes king.  Even when he was only a prince he should have been styled "Your Royal Highness" or something (in English, anyway.  Don't know the actual French terms except he would have been the dauphin).

 

Yes, I know there's plenty more here that doesn't make a lick of historical sense, but I agree that this one might bug me most of all.  Well, that and the only sporadic instances of bowing and curtseying that don't seem to conform to any particular pattern.  For all the flack that The Tudors took for historical accuracy, they actually were pretty faithful at doing this correctly.

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