Thunderdome: Glee fandoms

[truthaboutluv]

Yeah I've noticed this. I discovered it first with a soap opera couple (Luke/Noah on As The World Turns) and realized it with other subsequent gay pairings that the majority of fans are actually straight women or lesbians. I'm still not really sure why that is. I do think Kurt/Blaine had a decent teen fanbase at the start but that was largely because at the height of the show's popularity it had a large teen/young adult fanbase. And even then, most of their fans were still girls. 

[caracas1914]

It's hard to remember now with how much Glee has lost its appeal but one of the things were Klaine stood out was the open way (it seemed) a boy was singing to another in " Teenage Dream " with no angst, baggage or big PSA about it. It appealed to gays, straights, and anyone with a romantic streak in them. It was refreshingly different then from how gay couples had been treated onscreen, much less two teenagers. It almost seemed irrelevant that they were gay because the scene with music, context of Kurt being bullied, and chemistry between the two actors worked so well as sheer romantic bliss.

Glee bungled that away, alas, so that the Klaine fandom is reduced to fans who have to handwave everything including Blaine literally fucking Karofsky weeks , if not days, before their Klaine wedding. Deaf, Dumb and blind is how the remaining Klaine fans have to be to rationalize Blaine moving in with his ex fiancées tormentor who threatened to kill him. ( Yup the same guy Kurt ran off to Dalton because of). How the fuck do the writers think that makes any sense and from that to then rush them into a wedding just because? I'm sure the adult women fetishizing this wedding would snatch their own teenagers running and screaming from such an ill advised union with that tract record.

The Klaine fandoms "intellectual" explaining why they Need to get married is more entertaining than this show itself.

Edited December 4, 2014 by caracas1914

[truthaboutluv]

It almost seemed irrelevant that they were gay

 

 

That was the thing that I most liked about Blaine when the character first showed up. After watching Kurt's whole journey, then the darker journey of Karofsky the self-hating internalized homophobic nut, I was happy that there was a gay character for whom being gay was just one aspect of who he was. It's also why I hated all the theories wanting Blaine to have some troubled relationship with his parents and some dramatic home life because of his sexuality because I liked that he was just another teenager who just happened to be gay.

 

But to bring this back around to fandoms - well fandom started saying he was boring and too perfect and too nice and not interesting enough. And that was especially the argument for those who shipped Kurt with Karofsky. That a relationship between the two would be more "epic" because it would be so "dramatic" and "powerful storytelling". RIB may have ignored the pushing for Kurt/Karofsky at the time but they definitely started paying attention to the "too perfect and boring" and decided to make Blaine more flawed. And it was the beginning of the end.

 

Because what fandom hadn't yet realized at the time is that these writers did not know how to do anything with subtlety and so suddenly Blaine went from quiet and confident to younger, inexperienced and kind of a moron. And that decline has continued right up to the end culminating in this Karofsky mess. Hell Ryan Murphy even pulled that bullshit excuse to defend the cheating plot by saying people weren't interested in "real and flawed" characters, when some fans challenged the storyline by saying it was character assassination of Blaine. 

 

And just for the record, I'm not blaming the fandom for the shitty writing by any means. That's all on RIB because I noted above, it's a stupid showrunner who would even pay attention to and go down the rabbit hole of fandom. But not only were RIB guilty of it, they also lacked any subtlety and basically just threw in meta crap on the show addressing the shitty problems without fixing it or supposedly giving the viewers want they want by creating some ham fisted, stupidly plotted and badly written storylines.

Edited December 4, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[caracas1914]

Oh Certainly the blame rests squarely on the showrunners/writers, but I do think it was a very bizarre relationship between them and the hardcore fans. I waver if it was sheer incompetence , hubris or sheer contempt which made them shoot the goose that lay the golden egg as far as their treatment of the fans. Probably all three . The writers patted themselves on the back constantly as to how much the show meant to fans while simultaneously deconstructing everything that originally struck an emotional chord with said fans.

 

At the same time, it appeared that the show runners  deliberately wanted  to cater to certain sub fan groups that gave the perception they were beholding to them, enough so that the entitled fans felt even more entitled.  Like giving even more matches to a pyromaniac.

For season 6 I fully expect one more losing virginity SL , gay bashing and a tired parody of their other rehashed plots, all the while dishing out meta commentary with a knowing wink.

Edited December 4, 2014 by caracas1914

[fakeempress]

My feeling is Klaine may have had more gay fans in the GA than is obvious to us. But as fandom is concerned, I suppose their immediate popularity was helped by how the show had already developed Kurt as a character, humanised him and made people sympathise with him if not love him, and root for him to find romantic happiness as well. A lot of people had an emotional bond of some sort with the character. Shipping was a no-brainer next step there, Already in S.One Kurt was shipped with Finn, Puck, I'm not sure about Karofsky as early but definitely in S.Two when their SL was prominent. I remember the "Sam as Kurt's boyfriend" debacle that had a lot of disgruntled early-adopter shippers fuming when Blaine came on the scene, and their "ship" didn't turn out to be canon.  

 

That a large chunk of Klaine fandom is women (straight and lesbians) - I'll stereotype like a boss here it's no surprise that women respond to the high romanticising of the love interest (that slo-mo run through Dalton followed by TD), and to finding one's true love at first song, if they already have a bond with a character. Why they bond with a gay male character specifically - I think one reason, which also accounts for the mountains of Klaine fanfic still churned out, is the strong slash tradition in fandom which by that time was no more a niche genre but mainstream (take the Harry Potter massive fandom's slash production for instance) thanks to the fanfic sites, LJ, and then the explosion of tumblr. That Klaine was a couple in canon was the icing on the cake there. Also, there is already a generation or two raised on (slash) fanfic and steeped in fan communities and fandom wars - these are the over-30 year olds. Also, 50 Shades and the Cassie Clare crap (sorry to any fans here) were happening, aka fanfic as legitimate fiction sold in bookstores and being No.1 on the NYT BS list (probably not the first example historically but for me it was). 

 

 

fandom started saying he was boring and too perfect and too nice and not interesting enough. And that was especially the argument for those who shipped Kurt with Karofsky. That a relationship between the two would be more "epic" because it would be so "dramatic" and "powerful storytelling".

This happens in every fandom, I swear. But it's not a fandom phenom per se. I think in the grand scheme of things it's a vestige of the Romantic period with the Byronic hero (just take an abuser like Heathcliff for instance), and that sensibility has carried over to our day in various ways. I just found out on Wiki that one of the Twilight books was "inspired" by Wuthering Heights . if you watched Veronica Mars you've seen this archetype used for Logan (much better done and more complex than RIB's pathetic try, no contest), and also the fan wars over him. Some people don't find a problem with accepting a character like Karofsky as just "troubled" and "flawed", just a "bad boy" who can and is, like, crying to be "saved and reformed" by the heroine's love  (or hero's love in our case). Ryan obviously has zero problems with that as well, because we got the "romantic" - in actual fact creepy - Valentines, and Kurt beating himself over Karofsky's suicide. I'm curious to see how they'll use the archetype for Blainofsky though, as both Blaine and Karofsky were put through it on their own. Anyway, RIB tried to inject some "bad boy" in Blaine because that's indeed considered "dramatic" - but the trick is to do it well and create a complex and fascinating character, which they can't, and the result was an incoherent mess. I didn't bother checking at which point "Joaquin the DP" started his twitter assault and trolling of the Klaine fandom but I won't be surprised if it's around the time they de-heroed Blaine and felt the resulting backlash.

 

 

I was happy that there was a gay character for whom being gay was just one aspect of who he was. It's also why I hated all the theories wanting Blaine to have some troubled relationship with his parents and some dramatic home life because of his sexuality because I liked that he was just another teenager who just happened to be gay.

I hated that too but people love their angst anyway they can get it. Blaine couldn't be normal, he had to have some darkness because normal is not romantic or whatever. You can't angst over normal and write tons of angsty fanfic. Another example is the Sadie Hawkins dance he got beat up at, so many theories how it went and what his history in the pre-Dalton school was, and now they're mad that this isn't a subject of the rumoured flashback episode - like Glee needs another gay bashing SL. But I'm sure there is Blaine fanfic about it to last a lifetime. 

 

 

how the remaining Klaine fans have to be to rationalize Blaine moving in with his ex fiancées tormentor who threatened to kill him. ( Yup the same guy Kurt ran off to Dalton because of)

This is such an ironic twisted full circle moment, I can't.

Edited December 7, 2014 by fakeempress

[caracas1914]

Why they bond with a gay male character specifically - I think one reason, which also accounts for the mountains of Klaine fanfic still churned out, is the strong slash tradition in fandom which by that time was no more a niche genre but mainstream (take the Harry Potter massive fandom's slash production for instance) thanks to the fanfic sites, LJ, and then the explosion of tumblr. That Klaine was a couple in canon was the icing on the cake there. Also, there is already a generation or two raised on (slash) fanfic and steeped in fan communities and fandom wars - these are the over-30 year olds. Also, 50 Shades and the Cassie Clare crap (sorry to any fans here) were happening, aka fanfic as legitimate fiction sold in bookstores and being No.1 on the NYT BS list (probably not the first example historically but for me it was).

 

Definitely the perfect storm of Glee being born in the social media era and rapidly changing social mores (when Glee started I doubt may would have predicted legalized gay equality in over 30 states within 5 years) , though it seems shows like "Pretty Little Liars" handle things far more deftly without going out of their way to insult/mock their fans.

Edited December 4, 2014 by caracas1914

[truthaboutluv]

This happens in every fandom, I swear. But it's not a fandom phenom per se. I think in the grand scheme of things it's a vestige of the Romantic period with the Byronic hero (just take an abuser like Heathcliff for instance), and that sensibility has carried over to our day in various ways. I just found out on Wiki that one of the Twilight books was "inspired" by Withering Heights .

 

 

I didn't say it necessarily was. It's basically the cliche victim/victimizer trope in literature and that literature includes both books and movies and television. I wrote a comment about this in the "TV Tropes We Hate" thread. Yes, we've seen this for a long time. One of the most celebrated soap opera pairings, Luke and Laura, started with him raping her. And as I also noted in my comment, this trope is also tied strongly with the "bad boy woobie". You know, the asshole who really is just a tragic, complicated and hurt hero who just needs the love of this other person to be better. The only thing different about Kurt and Karofsky was that it was rooting for two guys versus a beautiful girl and a hot guy. But yeah it's hardly original. 

 

And yes I read a long time ago that Twilight was inspired by Wuthering Heights which only convinced me I was right to not read past the first book because the author is an idiot and the books are stupid. Wuthering Heights is one of my favorite books of all time, one of my favorite books I read in high school but I never thought of it as romantic and am always baffled when I meet people who seem to think it was. In my opinion the book was the "love story", if you can call it that, of two selfish, horrible assholes who you weren't supposed to like or root for. I liked it because it was a fascinating read to see this pairing it to its full destructive glory but that's it. I say all this because I think it's also why I have never been a fan of the victim/victimizer pairings.

 

I loathe Elena/Damon on The Vampire Diaries, loathed Buffy/Spike on Buffy, etc. and damn sure loathed the mere idea of Kurt and Karofsky and why I have been sick of that character for a long damn time and needed to never see him again because every single time has been worse. And the writers finally accomplished the ultimate because with all the shitty things they've done, making Blaine of all people, actually date Karofsky, takes the cake. But this is why a small part of me still wonders if maybe with all their shitty decisions, even they actually thought making Kurt date him would be going too far because of their history. And so in their mediocre minds, they figured that this would somehow be okay because well Blaine wasn't the one Karofsky tormented and bullied. Of course I guess the option of not bringing the character back at all never occurred to them.

Edited December 4, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[caracas1914]

With the Glee showrunner/writers I always felt that they used fandom as a convenient cover for what they already wanted. Ryan Murphy claimed that Karofsy was " popular" with fans but I'm guessing there wasn't an avalanche of Blainofsky shippers out there, but Ryan was determined to use him again anyways.

In theory I support using a character if the Creative heads have their story to tell, popularity be damned, but in Karofsky's case there wasn't much more to tell so inserting him as they finally have is playing around with one of the show's las remaining fandoms to create shock " drama" and fabricate conflict out of thin air.

Of course with these hacks it's typical they couldn't anticipate the backkash and thus scrambling now to assure the Klainers that their pairing is safe and that Glee's ending will please them refutes having any consistent vision, so undermining what made Klaine appealing to begin with is their incompetence wagging the tail.

" Bad boys" are a tried and true trope in fiction though Karofsky never fit that mold but as usual Ryan never seemed to have a firm handle what he wanted, which pretty much sums up all of Glee's extended plots. All of his "vision" seems to be written/thought out  on the fly with twists and turns to "accommodate" fans. Thus lack of discipline reflects in pissing off the fandoms even more while pretending to cater to them.

 

The Blaine fans are a perfect example.  They give them tons of his singing with little character development, or the outside Klaine development has been fucking the facebook Eli, fucking Karofsky or wanting to fuck Sam and  every time then having the epiphany that Kurt is the love of his life and his life centers around him.  All the while the writers pretend they are giving the Blaine stans what they want, when the only use they have for the character is a singing prop to service Kurt's endgame LI.

Edited December 4, 2014 by caracas1914

[fakeempress]

With the Glee showrunner/writers I always felt that they used fandom as a convenient cover for what they already wanted. Ryan Murphy claimed that Karofsy was " popular" with fans but I'm guessing there wasn't an avalanche of Blainofsky shippers out there, but Ryan was determined to use him again anyways.

In theory I support using a character if the Creative heads have their story to tell, popularity be damned, but in Karofsky's case there wasn't much more to tell so inserting him as they finally have is playing around with one of the show's las remaining fandoms to create shock " drama" and fabricate conflict out of thin air.

Of course with these hacks it's typical they couldn't anticipate the backkash and thus scrambling now to assure the Klainers that their pairing is safe and that Glee's ending will please them refutes having any consistent vision, so undermining what made Klaine appealing to begin with is their incompetence wagging the tail.

" Bad boys" are a tried and true trope in fiction though Karofsky never fit that mold but as usual Ryan never seemed to have a firm handle what he wanted, which pretty much sums up all of Glee's extended plots. All of his "vision" seems to be written/thought out  on the fly with twists and turns to "accommodate" fans. Thus lack of discipline reflects in pissing off the fandoms even more while pretending to cater to them.

 

The Blaine fans are a perfect example.  They give them tons of his singing with little character development, or the outside Klaine development has been fucking the facebook Eli, fucking Karofsky or wanting to fuck Sam and  every time then having the epiphany that Kurt is the love of his life and his life centers around him.  All the while the writers pretend they are giving the Blaine stans what they want, when the only use they have for the character is a singing prop to service Kurt's endgame LI.

If I I have to rank order, plot and especially sensational plot comes first with Ryan. As mentioned, what creative vision made Blainofsky so necessary that they didn't give Blaine a random new boyfriend. (Same as with Beiste now, and so many other examples). Ryan may excuse it with fandoms but if I'm not mistaken the Blaine fandom generally wasn't in the least bit happy with Blainofsky (they've since compartmentalised it, of course), and I think the Karofsky fandom wasn't either, if I'm not mistaken they mainly ship him  with Kurt. If it's to cater to fandom wishes, it's a very twisted way of doing it, but I don't believe for a minute that's what Ryan's doing. Ryan's doing what he wants to, finds interesting, and what he fixates on - rest be damned, and if a fandom is unhappy, he'll make sure to mock them on the show.  

 

The Blaine fandom as different from the Klainers was pretty happy with S.Four after the shock of the one-night stand wore off and they decided it was not a big deal and it was Kurt's fault anyway for not paying attention to him. They were ecstatic over Blam, all the MKH SLs, basically all that wasn't related to Klaine, and actually pronounced all this as character development. I think their major gripe post-breakup was that the Sadie Hawkins episode wasn't devoted to angsty drama over Blaine's past bashing, and that Blaine wasn't given a new love interest (until the queerbaiting Blam started). 

Edited December 6, 2014 by fakeempress

[caracas1914]

Yes, to Blaine stans Season 4 was catnip as every leading character prior to this  was graduated and no longer performing in the choir room, so the season was basically the Blee/Blam show.

 

Ryan's doing what he wants to, finds interesting, and what he fixates on - rest be damned, and if a fandom is unhappy, he'll make sure to mock them on the show.

 

 

So true.

[Anna Yolei]

I totally agree with this. That is why I said his original story was that he had to develop the courage to reach beyond his comfort zone. Finn was obviously quite ambivalent about his BMOC status but he also wasn't going to do anything about that until he joined Glee. That is why I have consistently maintained that him "learning to accept" he belonged in Lima was such a betrayal that original story. Lima, and in particular McKinley, was symbolic of his comfort zone and RM's final story for him was that he never aimed beyond that.

To me that plan was as much of a betrayal of his dream as Rachel achieving her Broadway dream and being bored by it within a month is a betrayal of her dream. That is why I think all fandoms have a right to be unhappy with RM but it is also why I think that fandoms who claim they have it the worst are simply refusing to see the damage RM has done across the board to the leads at least.

All of this, but especially the last sentence. I think the only characters that haven't been marginalized or otherwise ruined are Jacob the news reporter kid, the character Matt Rutherford played, Mike Cheng and Emma;the latter two being allowed to follow their stories to a natural end.

[jaytee1812]

All of this, but especially the last sentence. I think the only characters that haven't been marginalized or otherwise ruined are Jacob the news reporter kid, the character Matt Rutherford played, Mike Cheng and Emma;the latter two being allowed to follow their stories to a natural end.

 

I'd even argue that's not true with both Mike and Emma. They turned Mike into a misogynist who only did what Daddy said, and according Blaine in The Beatles episode is a racist. And Emma only got better because Will fixed her. 

 

I think every fans of every character has a right to be pissed, no-one got a good deal. The one thing I'm glad about for my favourite characters is they were never really followed after graduation, so they got good 'endings' but mostly their characters were destroyed before they could be written out.  

Edited December 7, 2014 by jtrattray

[Anna Yolei]

Mike doing what Daddy told him makes sense, considering high schoolers are influenced a lot by parents, for better or worse. I must've stopped watching before he became a misogynist and racist, though.

[truthaboutluv]

He was no longer on the show. It was a throwaway line by Blaine or Sam, can't really remember, that he broke up with Tina after he went away to college because "she wasn't Asian enough." More proof of how shitty those writers are. At that point they'd already established the break up at the start of Season 4 as a mature decision Mike and Tina made for themselves with him being away at college and her still in high school.

 

However they decided to just randomly throw in this nonsense in Season 5 about how he broke up with Tina because she wasn't Asian enough. That was to me a perfect example of why shipping on Glee is a waste of time in my opinion. There is not one couple on that show that one cannot make a case for them being horribly written and being horrible to or with each other. Seriously, every single one of them and that is pretty sad. 

[Sara2009]

I actually don't think Will " fixed" Emma. IMO, that was part of the point of their story line. Will pushed her to get help, but she did it on her own.

[caracas1914]

Emma was ruined long before, because Jayma is so appealing and adorable it somewhat glossed over that Emma did some pretty thoughtless and manipulative things. Using the HS celibacy club for her own agenda, as well as her failed engagement to Coach Tanaka and the sexless marriage with Dentist Carl.

It's funny but Carl was the one mid game LI whose character wasn't ruined, if anything he seemed fine. Like he was good for Emma in many ways and clearly felt genuine affection for her. It was simply that Emma refused to have sex with him and still pined over Will while married to the John Stamos. I mean , John Stamos!!

Edited December 9, 2014 by caracas1914

[Sara2009]

Emma definitely isn't an innocent angel, but I still think she's an inherently decent human being.

I think she and Will have been pretty good for each other recently. Granted that's because they only interact a couple of times a season, but still.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Sara2009

[caracas1914]

I still think she's an inherently decent human being.

 

I think the Glee writers think all the characters are inherently decent human  beings, even Coach Sue.

[Sara2009]

Tbh, I do too for the most part. I want to smack most of them a lot of the time, but none of them are awful people. Even my least favorite Blaine is immature rather than evil.

[SevenStars]

Tbh, I do too for the most part. I want to smack most of them a lot of the time, but none of them are awful people. Even my least favorite Blaine is immature rather than evil.

I agree with this. That's one of the reasons I could never truly dislike any of the characters because I never saw them as being evil or bad people. I was indifferent to some of them but never real dislike them.

[Sara2009]

Yep. Will, Blaine, Rachel, Quinn, and formerly Finn screw up a lot, but I think they all have good hearts. The writing for them makes me want to scream at times, though.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Sara2009

[caracas1914]

What fascinates me about so much of the Klaine fandom is that it seems to have this survivalist mode of thinking,  ie "we've trudged along all this time so we demand our pound of flesh happy ending."

 

It's almost like it's irrelevant to them that plots/storyline or even how the characters are actually  treated/depicted... the only thing that matters is the ending to them.

 

Sort of like sitting  through a horrible rom/com movie  and saying that the quality is defined because the couple didn't break up at the fadeout.

[fakeempress]

I get them on some level. The Klaine plots and storylines have had much that is arbitrary, out of the blue, out of character, no motivation or follow-up etc. writing in service of random plots that some just wave if off as "it's Glee". It would be harder to do that with a well-written and motivated trainwreck relationship.

Edited December 18, 2014 by fakeempress

[truthaboutluv]

What fascinates me about so much of the Klaine fandom is that it seems to have this survivalist mode of thinking,  ie "we've trudged along all this time so we demand our pound of flesh happy ending."

 

It's almost like it's irrelevant to them that plots/storyline or even how the characters are actually  treated/depicted... the only thing that matters is the ending to them.

 

Sort of like sitting  through a horrible rom/com movie  and saying that the quality is defined because the couple didn't break up at the fadeout.

 

I actually think that's pretty consistent with many shipper fanbases. Granted by the time it gets to the point where Kurt/Blaine is now, it's only a handful of people still holding on but yeah the attitude of "we put up with so much crap, that we don't care if it makes sense or not or how it happens, we just want our happy ending..." is fairly common. And really it is in part why writers keep using that tired trope of shitting on pairings for multiple seasons and throwing in a 13th hour nonsensical reunion and think that it means they've told some amazing love story. 

 

I saw plenty of Chuck/Blair fans who felt the same about how they ended in the series. Sure most sane and reasonable people snarked about Blair ending up with the guy who emotionally abused her and sold her for a hotel, not to mention his attempted rapes of Jenny and Serena in the earlier seasons of the show. But the last few shippers holding on didn't care. They stuck with their pairing through all the shit and by goodness they were going to celebrate their "happy ending" no matter how shitty.

 

Same with Ross and Rachel. By the time Friends ended who, but a small handful, gave a shit about those two anymore, especially as Ross became progressively nuttier each season. But again, for that handful that had watched since the first season, watched the infamous big kiss in the rain, they were going to take their happy ending however they got it. 

Edited December 18, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[Sara2009]

FWIW, I actually never saw Blaine's cheating as out of character. Given how insecure and needy he is, it made sense to me.

The spoilers for the next season are a different story, though.

[truthaboutluv]

FWIW, I actually never saw Blaine's cheating as out of character. Given how insecure and needy he is, it made sense to me

 

Cheating is one thing. Hooking up with some random guy he barely knew, never met, that he more or less picked up off of Facebook, yeah I forever call bullshit on that. Also, sure Blaine may have been insecure and needy but he was also the one when he felt insecure about Kurt leaving the previous season, his response was to pull away from him, not hook up with someone else and instead, funny enough, Kurt was the one who started flirting with someone because he felt he wasn't getting enough attention from Blaine at the time. 

 

As I said when Season 4 happened, the cheating was not really the issue so much when you remember that these characters are supposed to be teenagers. Also, in the hands of actually capable writers, there was a decent story to tell about high school sweethearts getting hit with reality when one goes away to college and making a long distance relationship work. The problem as always with the Glee writers is that they can't be subtle for shit and everything is always so half-assed and rushed. There's rarely ever breathing room in a storyline on that show. It's like zero to sixty in record time.

 

And then coupled with that was their mediocrity in writing any kind of decent character development and so the aftermath of the cheating plot was just pathetic. Nothing got resolved, discussed, Blaine didn't grow as a character, instead he just developed a creepy crush on Trouty Mouth, Kurt had a half second relationship that went nowhere and most of his feelings about said half a minute boyfriend/crush and feelings about Blaine at the time was left up to interpretation because he was pretty much mute for a bunch of episodes.

 

It was just all so horrible and then with nothing resolved,  Blaine starts talking about engagement, then rather than everyone rightfully calling him an idiot, instead they get engaged, only to once again have no kind of meaningful relationship/discussion until Blaine gets to New York and turns out Kurt really, really kind of can't stand living with him or hell frankly at times, seems like he couldn't even stand being around him. And now Season 6 which at this point it's all been said so just a giant WTF...ever. 

Edited December 18, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[jaytee1812]

Much as I loathe Blaine and Sam I think it might actually have been interesting to explore a romantic relationship between the two in season four, or at least the potential of a romantic relationship. I hated Blaine's crush and Sam reaction to it. And that might've avoided Sam/Brittany.

[caracas1914]

Sure fandoms have always been  like that, but I guess it was just so strange to me that the show seemed to cater to those fans while simultaneously crapping on them all the time.  Yes, "Gossip Girl"  shows that making relationships toxic is nothing new but Glee had crew/personnel using social media to fan the flames.  I can't think of another show where a fucking camerman has "fans" who he trolls with tidbits about their shipper fandom.  Or how Klaine is being  touted as some sort of progressive social statement to justify a barely out of their teens marriage.   It's just bizarre.

 

Truthaboutluv, I agree that  Ryan and Company just write that inconsistent way, and use fandom as a cover for whatever WTF plots they do.   The Glee showrunners hold their fandom and GA in contempt pretty much.

Edited December 18, 2014 by caracas1914

[fakeempress]

Sure fandoms have always been  like that, but I guess it was just so strange to me that the show seemed to cater to those fans while simultaneously crapping on them all the time.  Yes, "Gossip Girl"  shows that making relationships toxic is nothing new but Glee had crew/personnel using social media to fan the flames.  I can't think of another show where a fucking camerman has "fans" who he trolls with tidbits about their shipper fandom.  Or how Klaine is being  touted as some sort of progressive social statement to justify a barely out of their teens marriage.   It's just bizarre.

Not exactly the same thing since the social media of today weren't a factor at the time, but there still were producers and actors (don't know about cameramen lol) who engaged with fandom to the extent of trolling. It's unfortunate that the twop forum archives are not preserved offline, because they bear some witness. I remember at least two showrunners posting there, Sorkin (The West Wing) and Rob Thomas (Veronica Mars), and even if it starts innocuous enough, it always ends in kerfuffles. Somehow this goes hand in hand with the solidifying of the so-called "writer stans" who will find ways to excuse and rationalise away any stupid plot point or character twist because they have "trust" and "there is a plan". I saw it in the VM fandom with the Rob stans; I see it now in Glee with the reverse pandering from these particular stans to our intrepid cameraman. 

Edited December 18, 2014 by fakeempress

[caracas1914]

I remember at least two showrunners

 

 

But again, a fucking camera man? 

Edited December 18, 2014 by caracas1914

[fakeempress]

But again, a fucking camera man? 

LOL. But he was cameraman on Veronica Mars as well, he learned from the best and decided not to miss on the fun this time. For his efforts, he was rewarded with the attention he obviously wants, see below.  

http://www.successcircuit.com/interviews/joaquin-sedillo-magic-made/

http://www.withanaccent.com/2014/12/14/getting-know-glees-joaquin-sedillo/

http://www.withanaccent.com/2014/12/14/getting-know-glees-joaquin-sedillo/2/

 

I have a residual gripe with him over his lighting on VM when he took over as DP in S.2, so I was predisposed not to like the attention-seeking anyway.

Edited December 18, 2014 by fakeempress

[caracas1914]

There is another interesting subfandom regarding Klainers, for lack of a better word they are probably best described as pseudolesbians.

 

They have IMO  little to zero interest in any other queer or gay pairing, whether female or male on Glee unless it is Klaine.   Brittana doesn't interest them at all,  or Santana or Brittany with anyone else, and they even seem attracted physically to Blaine or Kurt as sexual beings to be objectified. 

 

There  are male gay fans who worshiped, say a number of straight female celebrity icons, but many clearly indicated they  are still  attracted to men..

 

However this subgroup, other than literally stating they are lesbians,  one would have no clue that they have any interest in any other  same sex  pairings since their obsession is just specifically one  M/M pairing, ie Klaine.    They only bring their queerdom into play seemingly to defend Klaine/Darren  from criticisms, as in " I'm a lesbian and I'm not offended by that."

 

Certainly nothing wrong with that, but it certainly is fascinating per fandoms.

 

One can imagine the book to be written on Glee fandoms.

Edited December 24, 2014 by caracas1914

[phoenixrising]

There is another interesting subfandom regarding Klainers, for lack of a better word they are probably best described as pseudolesbians.

 

They have IMO  little to zero interest in any other queer or gay pairing, whether female or male on Glee unless it is Klaine.   Brittana doesn't interest them at all,  or Santana or Brittany with anyone else, and they even seem attracted physically to Blaine or Kurt as sexual beings to be objectified. 

 

There  are male gay fans who worshiped, say a number of straight female celebrity icons, but many clearly indicated they  are still  attracted to men..

 

However this subgroup, other than literally stating they are lesbians,  one would have no clue that they have any interest in any other  same sex  pairings since their obsession is just specifically one  M/M pairing, ie Klaine.    They only bring their queerdom into play seemingly to defend Klaine/Darren  from criticisms, as in " I'm a lesbian and I'm not offended by that."

 

Certainly nothing wrong with that, but it certainly is fascinating per fandoms.

 

One can imagine the book to be written on Glee fandoms.

 

I suspect (although I don't know) that this group of lesbians has a very specific idea of what being queer is. Santana and Brittany don't fit because they are, by the media's standards, typically attractive, visually-looking straight women. Kurt is certainly not stereotypically male, and Blaine mostly isn't either, so I think people who categorize queer more as being non-gender conforming find that more appealing. I also know some lesbians are also put off by how jokey their relationship can be at times (Brittana shipper here, but I'll say I understand that perspective). 

 

Now, to this gay lady, I'll say I to gravitate more towards women's stories in general, especially queer ladies. Part of what distances me from Klaine is how heteronormatively they're written. Also, the dark side of that fandom is personally offensive to me (see the afterellen article nonsense and several of the people I follow on tumblr getting lesbophobic asks). 

[fakeempress]

I suspect (although I don't know) that this group of lesbians has a very specific idea of what being queer is. Santana and Brittany don't fit because they are, by the media's standards, typically attractive, visually-looking straight women. Kurt is certainly not stereotypically male, and Blaine mostly isn't either, so I think people who categorize queer more as being non-gender conforming find that more appealing. I also know some lesbians are also put off by how jokey their relationship can be at times (Brittana shipper here, but I'll say I understand that perspective). 

 

Now, to this gay lady, I'll say I to gravitate more towards women's stories in general, especially queer ladies. Part of what distances me from Klaine is how heteronormatively they're written. Also, the dark side of that fandom is personally offensive to me (see the afterellen article nonsense and several of the people I follow on tumblr getting lesbophobic asks). 

 

I've certainly noticed what caracas1914 and you speak of but can't provide much input, apart from there seem to be very prolific M/M /Klaine fic writers among this group of lesbians. Some are actually quite good or professional writers. But my comment is about the dark side of the Klaine fandom. I've come across a few occasions where a straight girl/woman pretended to be a gay man and invented a whole life story. One case was over several years on tumblr. They basically trolled Klainers who friended them. The troll was invariably someone who lusted after Darren, and I think they assumed the gay male persona probably to lend queer legitimacy to the salivating.

[phoenixrising]

On another topic: is every fandom as crazy as glee, with the actor/character/ship stans? I feel like if I say something negative about Darren, Chris, and Lea in particular, you get hostile attacks, to the point where it's ridiculous. And it's made me more resentful of all their characters, and somewhat unfairly, their actors too. IDK, as someone who's into Santana, I don't even try to defend some of Naya's personal life (but part of that is my lack of caring about actor's personal lives). 

[Cranberry]

As someone who was around for the Roswell fandom (as a moderator on another site, not as an active participant), and who enjoys following the Supernatural fandom blowups, I can safely say that the answer to your question is yes.

[Wishing Well]

There is another interesting subfandom regarding Klainers, for lack of a better word they are probably best described as pseudolesbians.

They have IMO little to zero interest in any other queer or gay pairing, whether female or male on Glee unless it is Klaine. Brittana doesn't interest them at all, or Santana or Brittany with anyone else, and they even seem attracted physically to Blaine or Kurt as sexual beings to be objectified.

There are male gay fans who worshiped, say a number of straight female celebrity icons, but many clearly indicated they are still attracted to men..

However this subgroup, other than literally stating they are lesbians, one would have no clue that they have any interest in any other same sex pairings since their obsession is just specifically one M/M pairing, ie Klaine. They only bring their queerdom into play seemingly to defend Klaine/Darren from criticisms, as in " I'm a lesbian and I'm not offended by that."

Certainly nothing wrong with that, but it certainly is fascinating per fandoms.

One can imagine the book to be written on Glee fandoms.

Thank you for explaining this, very interesting to read about! I definitely agree.

[fakeempress]

As someone who was around for the Roswell fandom (as a moderator on another site, not as an active participant), and who enjoys following the Supernatural fandom blowups, I can safely say that the answer to your question is yes.

Absolutely, Glee isn't an exception. I've see this is other shows going after the young audience. Maybe Glee seems more so because of twitter and tumblr, the social media aspect.

Edited December 27, 2014 by fakeempress

[tom87]

On another topic: is every fandom as crazy as glee, with the actor/character/ship stans? I feel like if I say something negative about Darren, Chris, and Lea in particular, you get hostile attacks, to the point where it's ridiculous. And it's made me more resentful of all their characters, and somewhat unfairly, their actors too. IDK, as someone who's into Santana, I don't even try to defend some of Naya's personal life (but part of that is my lack of caring about actor's personal lives). 

 

All fandoms  can get ridiculous.   I have been attacked by nearly every glee cast member fans at one time or another.   I don't hold that against Amber or Chris or whomever.   It isn't their fault.   As much as I find fans of individuals a bit much shippers take it it a different level imo.  

 

I wish people would keep it more about the character then the actors but never seems to fly.

[truthaboutluv]

Yeah as someone who has never "stanned" for any of the actors and the characters they play on the show, I can definitely say that all sides are guilty of it though maybe the stans of the more main characters/actors are a bit nuttier as they also tend to be bigger in the numbers or at least it appears so online. I actually never paid attention to Glee's fandom until the summer before S3 of the show.

 

I watched S1 and S2 but wasn't really interested in any of the actors, show stuff, etc. so never cared beyond watching the episode and moving on. When I dipped a toe in just to get a sense of what was being talked about, I quickly realized how annoying this could get and it did very fast. And guaranteed there are always those who are convinced their fave is the one being picked on and so they're not being a biased stan as well but just standing up for and supporting their favorite. But that's fandoms for you. Hey, I totally own my bias for Paul Wesley/Stefan when it comes to The Vampire Diaries, just like the people who love Ian Somerholder/Damon.

[fakeempress]

I'm sure there's enough history in the Buffy fandom to drown the Glee fandom wars. 

 

Character/ship stans for shows like Glee, Buffy, VD, Roswell, Gilmore Girls, VM, and so on, run the gamut from live and let live to screaming banshees, but the former tend to get crowded out in fandom as the show gets more established and the writers resort to more and more triangles, drama and back and forth for their SL. 

Edited December 27, 2014 by fakeempress

[Sara2009]

In general stans have a really inflated view of their favorite's talents. For instance, I've seen people claim that Darren is a musical genius.

[SevenStars]

Yeah as someone who has never "stanned" for any of the actors and the characters they play on the show, I can definitely say that all sides are guilty of it though maybe the stans of the more main characters/actors are a bit nuttier as they also tend to be bigger in the numbers or at least it appears so online. I actually never paid attention to Glee's fandom until the summer before S3 of the show.

 

I watched S1 and S2 but wasn't really interested in any of the actors, show stuff, etc. so never cared beyond watching the episode and moving on. When I dipped a toe in just to get a sense of what was being talked about, I quickly realized how annoying this could get and it did very fast. And guaranteed there are always those who are convinced their fave is the one being picked on and so they're not being a biased stan as well but just standing up for and supporting their favorite. But that's fandoms for you. Hey, I totally own my bias for Paul Wesley/Stefan when it comes to The Vampire Diaries, just like the people who love Ian Somerholder/Damon.

 

This is one of the reasons I usually stay outside of fandom because I can't be a stan for anyone, actor or character. I'm not comfortable wearing rose color glasses for anyone. 

[truthaboutluv]

In general stans have a really inflated view of their favorite's talents. For instance, I've seen people claim that Darren is a musical genius.

 

And I've seen many comments about Lea being "the voice of her generation and most talented"; that Dianna Agron was the most talented young actor on the show and actually a better singer than all the other "belters" but people just don't appreciate "subtle" voices; that Chris Colfer is brilliant and one of the most talented actors of his generation, etc. They all do it...

 

And on the flipside I've seen many hateful comments from people who stan for one actor and hate another - for example, Lea is is a rude, diva bitch; Naya is a bitch and a slut; Darren sleeps with Ryan Murphy for screentime and is a cokehead; Chris is smug asshole who dictates storylines that makes Blaine and by that token Darren, look bad. It goes on and on and on....

[caracas1914]

Well I think the nature of fandom by its definition is to like someone more than somewhat. One would hope that , say, a Darren stan or a Chris stan or a Lea stan would think they are talented and have something special about them.

I do think it gets blurred between expecting everyone to think like you do. I have no problem with , say , a Darren stan thinking he's a musical genius or a Lea fan thinking she's a voice of a generation. What I object to is to saying that if you disagree to that your a "hater". If someone thinks Chris is a good actor or a shitty actor is the same type of thing. Those are aesthetic differences of opinion.

As a Lea fan, however, I do opine when people throw aspersions that her relationship with Cory was all fabricated PR, or that Chris has given up completely on Glee, IMO it crosses the line by inferring a) Lea's integrity and honesty are suspect and b) Chris professional work ethic as an actor is being questioned, so objecting to those type of things specifically I don't think is being a too sensitive stan who wants everyone to worship the actor/character.

Edited December 27, 2014 by caracas1914

[Glorfindel]

The biggest problem I have with fandoms, or stans, is them shoving their favorites into other people's faces ad nauseam.

It's okay to be a enthusiastic fan and think your favorite is one of the best actors and/or singers ever, a gift to mankind, and it's also okay to not think so highly of another actor or singer. But just don't constantly tag your favorite in other, only very remotely related if at all, people's or tv show's tags, or make everything about them when they are only a small part of a group event/effort.

 

And certainly don't try to attach their name on the successes of someone else, trying to ride their coattails.

Nothing annoys me more when 1 cast member of Glee does something which is clearly unrelated to the show and the result of his/her own hard work and merits, and gets some well-deserved media attention and praise for it, and immediately stans of another cast member try to diminish and belittle their success (in comparison to that of their own fave of course) while simultaneously clearly very jealous sending hunderds of tweets like "And what about *insert name*?", "Was *insert name* there?", "But *insert name* is more important/better/handsomer than so-and-so.", "Why don't you talk about *insert name*?", and so on.

Pathetic.

 

If your favorite really is that special as you think he/she is then they don't need you to obnoxiously advocate for them and shove them in everyone's faces, or deliberately try to steal the attention away from other actors.

 

 

-ETA-

Correction, there's something more annoying in fandoms imo: real life shipping, especially when the actors are clearly not together.

And if you really can't stop yourself because your rl OTP look simply too cute together, at least keep it on your own tags and blogs, but don't contact or tag the people involved directly, nor their friends, family and co-workers. And definitely don't send them hate.

[tom87]

On the flip say of the stanning fans we have the haters who could simple stop watching if it annoys them so much.

[truthaboutluv]

Well I think the nature of fandom by its definition is to like someone more than somewhat. One would hope that , say, a Darren stan or a Chris stan or a Lea stan would think they are talented and have something special about them.

 

 

Thinking one is talented sure...hyperbole is a whole other thing. And in saying that I guess this is technically why some do make the distinction between someone being a fan versus a stan. Because the term stan originated from Eminem's hit song of the same name which basically detailed the story of a fanatic obsessed with his idol. So the term is actually more about people who take the "fanning" to extreme levels. So obviously I'm not speaking about someone who likes Darren who of course is going to think he is talented or who likes Lea and thinks she's talented. My comment was a response to show that all parts of fandom have hyperbolic statements for whoever the person is a fan of. 

 

And again to each his own but I definitely don't think that's everyone or the normal nature of being a fan of someone. Because as I noted above, I love Paul Wesley on The Vampire Diaries but I mostly love him as it relates to the show. In other words I think he does a great job playing the character of Stefan and yes, I do think he is somewhat underrated by some viewers of the show because he doesn't have the "flashy" character. That said, as good as I think he is on TVD I have never once thought he is this phenomenal actor and destined for super amazing great things. Because again, Hollywood is very unpredictable and talent alone doesn't always guarantee success. 

 

What I object to is to saying that if you disagree to that your a "hater". If someone thinks Chris is a good actor or a shitty actor is the same type of thing. Those are aesthetic differences of opinion.

 

 

I agree but once again, in keeping with the whole point of my comment, ALL parts of fandom are guilty of it. Because I'm sure there are some Chris fans who think anyone who doesn't think he is the absolute best actor on the show ever is a hater and must be a biased Darren stan (I know because I've seen it), just like the Darren fans who yes, think any criticism against him are people who are haters who are probably Chris Colfer fans and on and on and on... It's a repetitive cycle that all parts are guilty of in some capacity.

 

As a Lea fan, however, I do opine when people throw aspersions that her relationship with Cory was all fabricated PR, or that Chris has given up completely on Glee, IMO it crosses the line by inferring a) Lea's integrity and honesty are suspect and b) Chris professional work ethic as an actor is being questioned, so objecting to those type of things specifically I don't think is being a too sensitive stan who wants everyone to worship the actor/character.

 

 

And once again, I wasn't saying otherwise. My comment was just as noted above, to prove that all parts are guilty no matter how much some may think it's "those fans" guilty of it. And I absolutely agree about crossing lines, like with the stuff about Lea and Cory's relationship or how I found it very troublesome that so many at TWOP kept casually stating Darren's "obviously" sleeping with Ryan Murphy (oh let me be accurate, it was that he was clearly bending over for Ryan Murphy) multiple times like it was just an absolute fact. 

 

As for the comment about Chris, if this is in relation to the comments about him seeming checked out, of which I've stated, I will say that my comment is in relation to the performance Chris delivers onscreen. That's how I interpret his performance. Now if one takes that as my questioning his work ethic, then I can't help that because that is not my intent. Paul Wesley, who I just mentioned how much I adore, I have commented multiple times in the most recent seasons about him looking bored as hell in some of his scenes. It's become a running joke by many people in TVD fandom who actually love him - that Paul just seems so over it. 

 

Sure I don't think his acting is horrible and there are storylines and some episodes where he's amazing but there are times when I feel like he's doing the minimum because either he hates the storyline or is bored with it. And again this is someone I'm a fan of. So I get that some who are huge fans of Chris certainly don't view his performances as I do but my saying I felt like at times during the last season he seemed checked out or bored is not some huge criticism on Chris as a person or even a performer. As I noted in my original comment, I have seen many talented people do this particularly when their show has ran multiple seasons and the writing is no longer what it was. Topher Grace was the same on That 70's Show the season before he inevitably left, same as Ashton Kutcher and eventually Kelso's screentime was significantly reduced. 

Edited December 27, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[Sara2009]

I thought it was clear that I was just using Darren stans as an example. That's why I said " for instance."

I never said that they're the only ones who take things to extremes.

[fakeempress]

 

Because as I noted above, I love Paul Wesley on The Vampire Diaries but I mostly love him as it relates to the show. In other words I think he does a great job playing the character of Stefan and yes, I do think he is somewhat underrated by some viewers of the show because he doesn't have the "flashy" character.

OT: For me Paul is much better actor than Ian (I've seen Ian in quite a few things to know I have zero interest in him as an actor), which is why I was deadly bored by the "flashy" character and stopped watching the show when they brought in Delena. 

 

 

On the flip say of the stanning fans we have the haters who could simple stop watching if it annoys them so much.

I get hate-watching, and I put myself halfway into that category in that I hate what Glee's doing most of the time now, but I'll see it through the end (while complaining, lol).

But hate-watching has degrees and stages, and sometimes it can be fun when people know they're watching a bad show and don't take everything seriously, including their own fascination with it. For example, I loved the Young Americans thread on TWOP. When that show was on, I lived for the recaps and the hilarious forum comments. Incidentally, that's the first time I saw Ian Somerhalder on screen. 

Edited December 27, 2014 by fakeempress