S02.E09: Mama

[Helena Dax]

 

You love the concept, but that's nothing to sacrifice the world on

As far as  I remember,  that isn't what they want to do. They  want  to stop/kill Moloch. They think that if they redeem Henry, there will be one  less horseman working for Moloch. It's not as if they're willing to let the world be destroyed just to  save their son.

[HalcyonDays]

As far as  I remember,  that isn't what they want to do. They  want  to stop/kill Moloch. They think that if they redeem Henry, there will be one  less horseman working for Moloch. It's not as if they're willing to let the world be destroyed just to  save their son.

 

Yeah, but you notice they never talked about redeeming Abraham. Why not both? Why is he not worthy of redemption? Both Horseman have a personal and emotional connection to the Cranes. I've also long complained that the Crane's are too selfish and playing god, since they don't mind a large body-count of innocents, as they continue on their delusion about redeeming Henry. (and I bet he will be redeemed anyway *grin*)

 

I totally understand what you are saying, but they seem to have tunnel-vision with Henry. Abbie can see it - hence her frequent eye-rolling - and a lot of people here (and elsewhere) are complaining about it.

 

Which now raises the question. Originally, you needed all four horseman to kick-start "the end of days." But now that Moloch is in the real world, what is the purpose of the horseman? I mean, we really don't know why Moloch is here, and what he intends to do once he becomes an adult. What's his plan?

[phoenics]

Except Ichabod ISN'T a child, so it's actually COMPLETELY different from that.

Perhaps it's different than giving it to him as a child, but it's definitely still not the same as giving someone drugs so that they kill themselves. I thought it was funny and others apparently did too - not sure this is a hill I want to die on though - so we'll just agree taht we saw this differently and leave it at that. You didn't think it was funny? Cool. I did. That's also cool.

 

I guess we were watching completely different shows last week, because on my set, that's when Crane started softening toward him.

 

No - we were watching the same show - we just didn't see it the same way. Or, better yet, I think we might be talking about different places in the episode.

 

I was referring to Ichabod's reaction when he saw Abbie outside with Hawley after she bandaged him up.  You suggested that in the last episode, Ichabod and Hawley had "bro'd up", but then in this episode they were back to being not bro's, so I offered that perhaps it was because Crane realized Abbie might return his affections after coming upon the two of them.

 

But after thinking about it further, it could also be because Ichabod was cross that Abbie called Hawley for help, while sidelining him. I think that's probably a large part of it - although Ichabod seemed slightly cross the minute Hawley even showed up... but that might still be because he surmised Abbie called him, lol.

[phoenics]

Yeah, but you notice they never talked about redeeming Abraham. Why not both? Why is he not worthy of redemption? Both Horseman have a personal and emotional connection to the Cranes. I've also long complained that the Crane's are too selfish and playing god, since they don't mind a large body-count of innocents, as they continue on their delusion about redeeming Henry. (and I bet he will be redeemed anyway *grin*)

I'm also trying to remember where either Crane has said that saving Henry is the way to stop the Apocalypse. Can someone point me to where they've floated that as an actual strategy? Because I don't think they've said that. At all. All they have ever said is that they want to save Henry. When honestly, I think IF this was a real plan to avert the Apocalypse, then Abraham was probably a better mark.

It bothers me though that the Cranes seem so focused on that redemption for Henry, but Abraham (who is a Horseman largely due to THEIR betrayal) isn't worthy? That just makes them seem even more selfish.

They aren't trying to save Henry because it will stop the Apocalypse - they're trying to save Henry because they want their son back.

I totally understand what you are saying, but they seem to have tunnel-vision with Henry. Abbie can see it - hence her frequent eye-rolling - and a lot of people here (and elsewhere) are complaining about it.

This wouldn't be so bad if Ichabod wasn't a Witness - but he is. It also wouldn't be bad if Henry wasn't out there killing folks and snatching souls - but he is. They keep putting their wants and desires above everyone else and that just really pisses me off.

Which now raises the question. Originally, you needed all four horseman to kick-start "the end of days." But now that Moloch is in the real world, what is the purpose of the horseman? I mean, we really don't know why Moloch is here, and what he intends to do once he becomes an adult. What's his plan?

I have no idea.

I had a thought that he'd be Conquest - since the child appears to have some sort of "anti-christ" power right now, but I have no clue...

[phoenics]

It seemed to be the lets focus on the Black folks to satisfy the critics episode.

Well - but Hawley was still there, so...?

Edited November 19, 2014 by phoenics

[fantique]

Which now raises the question. Originally, you needed all four horseman to kick-start "the end of days." But now that Moloch is in the real world, what is the purpose of the horseman? I mean, we really don't know why Moloch is here, and what he intends to do once he becomes an adult. What's his plan?

Ooh!!! Shiny!!!! I like this question. We definitely need more info on his goal here. Unless, since Death is originally the last Horseman, maybe they just need him to have his head to full on start the apocalypse and the other Horsemen are at large and they all reunite when he and Moloch are at full power.

[Elsinore]

I liked it. Mainly because it managed to balance the characters nicely instead of having all of them on the same side of the scale.

 

Can I just say that I loved loved loved the music in this episode. Especially when they were breaking down the wall to reveal the drawing.

 

I really didn't mind Hawley so much, or an absent Crane.

 

Little Jenny was perfectly cast. Seems like she bore the brunt of the crazy too.

 

I called the ghostly nurse thing because her uniform was outdated.

 

Fall finale next week. Here's your chance to redemption, writers.

[Crackedmuse]

As far as  I remember,  that isn't what they want to do. They  want  to stop/kill Moloch. They think that if they redeem Henry, there will be one  less horseman working for Moloch. It's not as if they're willing to let the world be destroyed just to  save their son.

 

Not just one less Horseman, but a powerful ally.

 

Who is to say that time spent trying to kill Henry - which cannot be remotely easy, and could take months if not years - is better than time spent attempting to redeem him?  These are not mutually exclusive tasks.  The team will continue to gather info/weapons to take out Moloch simultaneously with the Cranes trying to connect with Henry.  And yes, no question about the collateral damage, but any evil entity they go against would be similar, if not the same.

 

But even if everyone was in agreement that Henry should be killed, how do they plan on doing it?  This is a man who can bury you alive and practically scorch the earth with the blink of an eye.  I don't think Abbie whipping out her pistol is going to take him down.   And if they did manage to kill him, then what?  A couple of  weeks of breathing room until Moloch finds a replacement?  Because a replacement will be found.

 

However, if Henry is redeemed the Witnesses will have 13 years of Moloch insider knowledge, a  Sin Eater, a mind reader, and the witch power of half a dozen covens combined fighting on their side, and someone who is as invested - if not more invested - in vanquishing Moloch because he is the true cause of what Jeremy has become.  The demon that transformed a child's anger and bitterness into pure evil.  And given the importance of faith that Ichabod and Abbie have relied on since the day they met, Henry's redemption might strengthen that faith even more that they will be successful in stopping the Apocalypse.

 

Yes, the Crane family would be reunited, but that is the least of what would be gained.  So isn't that worth fighting for?  It may fail, but killing Henry is no sure thing either - and might take longer and cost even more lives.  I don't think it's that easy to say what's right vs. what's wrong.

 

If Jenny or Frank were to become Horseman and start taking out people left and right, I doubt we would deny them a shot at redemption.  The difference is that we've seen them prior.  We've only had surface glimpses of Henry's inner pain and turmoil, but they are expressions of his humanity, however small.  And the Witnesses are fighting to save humanity.  And saving Henry's humanity might ultimately save mankind as much as any other weapon the Witnesses might find.  Just something to consider.

 

(and I bet he will be redeemed anyway *grin*)

 

Of course. It's how they got John Noble to commit.  "You get to be a wise old man, a rebellious child, a sin eater, a warlock, a Horseman, boss other Horsemen around, and ultimately a loving son to parents half your age. Greatest acting challenge of your life! Sign here."

 

#DestiniesEntwinedDAMMIT

[Helena Dax]

I'm also trying to remember where either Crane has said that saving Henry is the way to stop the Apocalypse. Can someone point me to where they've floated that as an actual strategy? Because I don't think they've said that. At all. All they have ever said is that they want to save Henry. When honestly, I think IF this was a real plan to avert the Apocalypse, then Abraham was probably a better mark.

It bothers me though that the Cranes seem so focused on that redemption for Henry, but Abraham (who is a Horseman largely due to THEIR betrayal) isn't worthy? That just makes them seem even more selfish.

They aren't trying to save Henry because it will stop the Apocalypse - they're trying to save Henry because they want their son back.

 

I think Katrina said that to Abbie in the succubus episode,  that Moloch would be weaker without Henry. Of course, they also want to try to save him because Henry's their son, I'm not denying  it. It's just I don't see "let's try to save Henry while we save the world" as "Fuck the world, I just care about my family". 

 

I'd never hold the Cranes responsibles for what Abraham  did. Don't get me wrong, I'd be pissed if I were Abraham and I would  have never forgiven them. But I would never  have chosen to  become a Horseman and  help a demon to  bring  the Apocalypse to Earth either. That's entirely on Abraham.

 

And everything Crackedmuse said.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Helena Dax

[stealinghome]

Don't get me wrong, I'd be pissed if I were Abraham and I would  have never forgiven them. But I would never  have chosen to  become a Horseman and  help a demon to  bring  the Apocalypse to Earth either. That's entirely on Abraham.

Can we say "disproportionate reaction"? ;)

 

More seriously, the problem with reforming Abraham is that I don't think he'd ever be able to bring himself to be on Ichabod's side. I can see the potential with Henry, even if a) that's not where I want them to take the storyline and b) ITA that the show has totally bungled the execution. But Abraham, I just don't see him ever being able to stomach working with Ichabod, let alone basically taking orders from him (the Witnesses call the shots on Team Good). His hate has just festered for way too long.

[apgold]

I liked this episode more than the others we've seen recently and I thought the Mills sisters were amazing and welcome back Frank! This show should do a crossover with PLL b/c Tarrytown Psych is starting to look like Radley, LOL.

 

The special effects around Lori's ghost were just strange, IMO.  Like she was on an old TV with bad reception.  Not the usual ghostly sightings effects.

 

I didn't mind that Ichabod wasn't in this one so much, and Hawley was more just some backup help for the sisters.  Glad they did not push the love triangle in this one.  The show doesn't need it.

 

Can't they get Katrina a new outfit besides that stupid corset and jeans?   

[phoenics]

Not just one less Horseman, but a powerful ally.

 

Who is to say that time spent trying to kill Henry - which cannot be remotely easy, and could take months if not years - is better than time spent attempting to redeem him?  These are not mutually exclusive tasks.  The team will continue to gather info/weapons to take out Moloch simultaneously with the Cranes trying to connect with Henry.  And yes, no question about the collateral damage, but any evil entity they go against would be similar, if not the same.

 

But even if everyone was in agreement that Henry should be killed, how do they plan on doing it?  This is a man who can bury you alive and practically scorch the earth with the blink of an eye.  I don't think Abbie whipping out her pistol is going to take him down.   And if they did manage to kill him, then what?  A couple of  weeks of breathing room until Moloch finds a replacement?  Because a replacement will be found.

 

However, if Henry is redeemed the Witnesses will have 13 years of Moloch insider knowledge, a  Sin Eater, a mind reader, and the witch power of half a dozen covens combined fighting on their side, and someone who is as invested - if not more invested - in vanquishing Moloch because he is the true cause of what Jeremy has become.  The demon that transformed a child's anger and bitterness into pure evil.  And given the importance of faith that Ichabod and Abbie have relied on since the day they met, Henry's redemption might strengthen that faith even more that they will be successful in stopping the Apocalypse.

 

Yes, the Crane family would be reunited, but that is the least of what would be gained.  So isn't that worth fighting for?  It may fail, but killing Henry is no sure thing either - and might take longer and cost even more lives.  I don't think it's that easy to say what's right vs. what's wrong.

 

If Jenny or Frank were to become Horseman and start taking out people left and right, I doubt we would deny them a shot at redemption.  The difference is that we've seen them prior.  We've only had surface glimpses of Henry's inner pain and turmoil, but they are expressions of his humanity, however small.  And the Witnesses are fighting to save humanity.  And saving Henry's humanity might ultimately save mankind as much as any other weapon the Witnesses might find.  Just something to consider.

 

 

Of course. It's how they got John Noble to commit.  "You get to be a wise old man, a rebellious child, a sin eater, a warlock, a Horseman, boss other Horsemen around, and ultimately a loving son to parents half your age. Greatest acting challenge of your life! Sign here."

 

#DestiniesEntwinedDAMMIT

I think that had the Cranes made their argument as eloquently as you've stated here, they might have been able to sway us (the audience) to their side. As it is, we have Crane ordering Abbie around and Katrina stating that only her opinion matters. They come off as selfish, self righteous and only caring about Henry because he's their "blood", while not caring about anyone else. That's what has aired. Maybe - maybe - the writers thought of this as you do, but that's not what they wrote.

Because of their attitude and the way they've treated Abbie, I don't want Henry to be redeemed. I want the CFD to be over. Forever. I want Crane to pay a heavy price for putting Henry/Katrina above the world - because otherwise the message is that all of the suffering he put Abbie and everyone else through (and all the people who died while he let Henry just do whatever instead of focusing on his Witness duties) was for the chance that Henry might be able to help them defeat Moloch.

I think that's a lot to ask of the audience - to support the Cranes in this - when they are being so ugly to everyone else and changing the rules when it suits them. Katrina especially has been guilty of this. When Abbie tells her that this is distracting them from their mission, Katrina responds that her opinion is the only one that matters. But when it was Mary who was "distracting" Ichabod from being a Witness (and actually I believe then-engaged-to-Abraham-Katrina meant it was distracting Ichabod from HER) - Mary suspiciously found herself flying off a cliff after tripping over a "root".

It paints an ugly picture for fans to accept - that the only thing that really matters to the Cranes are - the Cranes. Everyone else is collateral damage. Or, at the very least, it paints Katrina that way. And it paints Ichabod into the jerk corner for going along with her so readily.

I also doubt that Henry will retain all of his powers if he is freed from the Horseman. I think that if he makes the choice of redemption, he will leave the Horseman to be filled by someone else, and lose much of his power - including Sin Eating and half of the magic he has. I think what might be useful is his info about Moloch.

But - I want scary horsemen back. Henry and Abraham? Not scary anymore. Neither is Moloch.

I want better stakes. If Ichabod+Katrina just get what they want after all of this, then that just says that their selfishness, self righteousness and total disregard for anyone other than themselves was justified. I just can't with that. It means that no matter how many lives are lost - Abbie is supposed to just go along with it because "they were right" before.

I will be so furious if that happens.

[FierceAfroChick]

Maybe I’m remembering it wrong, but Abraham didn’t really choose to become a Horseman, did he?  He was lying against the tree helpless and near death when dudes started shaving his head and putting masks on him.  I recall him telling Crane to run, but not much else.  Was there a scene in there somewhere where he was given a choice to join Moloch’s army and he accepted?  Or are people saying he chose to be Death because he had the will to refuse being turned into a monster?

 

Just asking because it’s been a while since I’ve seen that ep.

[DeLurker]

That's how I am remembering things with Abraham.

[starchild215]

If Ichabod is honest with himself he will realize that this whole Henry mess exists because of Katrina's actions. He died not knowing Katrina was even pregnant let alone that she'd given birth to a son. He is struggling with that reality and trying to hold onto the fact that he loved a woman, gave up a friendship for her, and that she never even told him, even in that intimate moment we were allowed to see, that she was pregnant. He's holding so hard onto Katrina because he can't believe that he married a woman who apparently didn't love him enough to tell him the truth about herself. I think that Abby realizes that on some level and that is why she's not going smack off on him when he goes into his "Katrina is good" rants. She snaps at him but then she pulls back. It's a horrible situation for Ichabod to be in.

 

Henry is angry with both of his parents but the one who is drectly responsible for what happened to him is Katrina. From what we know now she deserves a special place in hell. Purgatory was too good for her.

 

I'm wondering if she's spelled though. I mean she's not acting like a witch. She has no supernatural sense as shown by her reaction to the demon baby and that makes no sense to me. 

 

Don't get me wrong I don't want to see more of her. It's just an observation.

[BrokenRemote]

So the next time you guys are sick but need to go to work anyway you're ok with some man you hardly know slipping you a roofie because it's better for you to rest, and you'll laugh about it later?

Edited November 19, 2014 by BrokenRemote

[phoenics]

Maybe I’m remembering it wrong, but Abraham didn’t really choose to become a Horseman, did he?  He was lying against the tree helpless and near death when dudes started shaving his head and putting masks on him.  I recall him telling Crane to run, but not much else.  Was there a scene in there somewhere where he was given a choice to join Moloch’s army and he accepted?  Or are people saying he chose to be Death because he had the will to refuse being turned into a monster?

 

Just asking because it’s been a while since I’ve seen that ep.

I was thinking about this earlier - what I was trying to figure out was whether or not Abraham told Ichabod that he chose it afterwards when Ichabod had captured him? When he was speaking through John Cho?

[savinggrace]

So the next time you guys are sick but need to go to work anyway you're ok with some man you hardly know slipping you a roofie because it's better for you to rest, and you'll laugh about it later?

 

There are lots of natural remedies that will make you sleepy aside from roofies. As others have said there was no malicious intent. Hawley was getting a very stubborn Crane to get the rest he needed and Crane later expressed his gratitude for it. If Crane wasn't offended I'm not sure why I should be,

 

This was a great episode, I'm glad Abbie and Jenny got closure. I like that Crane took a backseat. He tends to take over the investigation and I think it was important that the Mills figure things out themselves. I loved the scene where they discovered the mural. I think Jenny's sudden elevation into a high priestess needs to be explained though. It just seemed too abrupt.

 

I've been a big fan of Hawley from the start and I loved him more in this episode. His love of Jane Austen, the matzo ball soup and all the support he gave Abbie and Jennie without complaint or hesitation makes me wish fans would stop the hating on him. I hope the writers ignore the fan noise and keep him around. He makes a great addition to the team. I look forward to his nicknames for Crane. I'm predicting we'll get "Vanity Fair" and "Mr Darcy" in future episodes.

[phoenics]

So the next time you guys are sick but need to go to work anyway you're ok with some man you hardly know slipping you a roofie because it's better for you to rest, and you'll laugh about it later?

Ichabroke works?

[Mia Nina]

Solid episode. And what an interest contrast it set up between the two leads. IMO Ichabod is over 200 years old and has been "blessed" or "cursed" with more opportunities than most considering he and everyone he ever knew should be long dead by now, period.

 

What this episode revealed in detail was just how utterly joyless and scary Abbie and Jenny's lives have been from childhood to present adulthood, not to mention their suffering mother who was driven to mad. In contrast, Ichabod had plenty go relatively well, as an educated white man in an era of unforgiving racial and social hierarchy, who managed to marry the "woman of his dreams" (as for Abbie she barely has time to see her troubled sister, let alone lead any kind of romantic life), and was also able to come back from the grave twice, which might explain his overwhelming sense of entitlement in the here and now which he has consistently directed at Abbie, the woman who supports him financially and emotionally and even buys him pills for his flu (her devotion to Ichabod is palpable and unconditional so far), to whom he promised to be there for not five episodes ago only to spectacularly break that promise once his beloved returned to him and even after she left him again.

 

In fact, that little scene between Hawley, Abbie and Crane was pretty wonderful. While Crane berated Abbie for her dig at Katrina (which happened to be a fact), Hawley had that awkward look while Abbie looked resigned. Moreover, Abbie felt the need to explain Ichabod's rant to Hawley saying he would get better once he slept. What Abbie failed to mention was that this wasn't the first time she's had to endure such a thing from Crane.

 

Granted, when Ichabod said he would go with her and she said "uh huh" while shaking her head it was simply amazing. I do love how silent Hawley was during the entire exchange, not knowing exactly what to say or act until the tension was shattered once Ichabod took a second sip of the his soup and promptly fell asleep thank goodness.

 

I really love Ichabod, but the man is incredibly entitled and I think that Abbie has been through enough already, which is why I hate when he goes after her like that knowing how unconditional she's been with him. She doesn't deserve it, certainly not from him. You're currently living in the Twenty First century, Ichabod, learn some manners.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Mia Nina

[fantique]

Who is to say that time spent trying to kill Henry - which cannot be remotely easy, and could take months if not years - is better than time spent attempting to redeem him?  These are not mutually exclusive tasks. 

 

Yes, the Crane family would be reunited, but that is the least of what would be gained.  So isn't that worth fighting for?  It may fail, but killing Henry is no sure thing either - and might take longer and cost even more lives.  I don't think it's that easy to say what's right vs. what's wrong.

 

If Jenny or Frank were to become Horseman and start taking out people left and right, I doubt we would deny them a shot at redemption.  The difference is that we've seen them prior. 

See the thing is, I am not against Henry being redeemed. They pretty much said it would happen in every interview over the hiatus. The problem is I was expecting to see Katrina as part of the team earlier on and have scenes with the Cranes discussing the fact that they want to help their son and be there for him. Then they could have used the confrontations between them and him more sparingly and then have them fight while holding back because of course they don't want to kill their son. 

My problem with the collaterals is the fact that they, as a team of heroes, should always be trying to avoid innocents' deaths. So when there is something that could be preemptively stopped and isn't, it's a bad look on all of them. They should be shown researching how to kill a Horseman while looking forlorn. I also was super annoyed at both Abbie and Crane for letting the Kindred roam free without knowing if he could be a danger to others.

 

I don't need them to succeed at separating the mission from their parenthood, I just need them to try. That's my problem, I think I liked the idea that of Cranes having to think about what's right vs what's easier on their feelings. I wanted to see the struggle, feel bad for them and then be rewarded by figuring out that trying to save Henry is also right. It might be cliché but I always like a moving redemption story. If that had happened, I'm sure we would have been like "Why are you torturing yourselves ya idjits, just try to covert him!" but at least it's evidence that they are ready to sacrifice what they hold dear to complete their mission. 

 

As for if it had been Jenny, it would have been like how Abbie handled Joe. Prepared to kill him if that's the only choice but really hoping to save him before she has to kill him and s/he hurts more people. Actually she probably would not even try to get her hopes up if it was Jenny because it might hurt too much if she's not enough to save her sister. Her version of unreasonable could be the other extreme of the spectrum (she would feel responsible for Jenny being the Horseman and insist on being the one to destroy her) but at least it would show that she understands the stakes here.

 

I think Katrina said that to Abbie in the succubus episode,  that Moloch would be weaker without Henry. Of course, they also want to try to save him because Henry's their son, I'm not denying  it. It's just I don't see "let's try to save Henry while we save the world" as "Fuck the world, I just care about my family".

It's more the idea that it seems that they are putting his redemption above their mission and that they think the decision only impacts them. That's what the show is practically spelling out for us (Also Albert Kim said that we are supposed to sympathise with the Cranes but still see Henry more as a threat than a potential ally, my guess is over time we are supposed to be won over by the idea of saving him). They had that whole scene saying that Jeremy is Crane's weakness.

 

The other thing is they have seen the effects of Henry's schemes on people that are allies and friends, and I didn't get enough of that "I am so sorry my son did that to you". It was a sign that Crane just has selective everything when it comes to his family and both he and Katrina don't make the best choices. I just wish to have seen more of the typical my son/friend/brother has turned evil thing where they only go on the defensive if they have to and will try to stop their loved ones from causing damage but you see the pain in the good guys. The problem is, what I'm seeing is closer to petulance than heartbreak from the Cranes. I see some pain from Katrina from time to time but actually there has been too much interaction with Henry that looks antagonistic instead of pleading.

 

I think that had the Cranes made their argument as eloquently as you've stated here, they might have been able to sway us (the audience) to their side. They come off as selfish, self righteous and only caring about Henry because he's their "blood", while not caring about anyone else.

This is pretty much what I feel went wrong there. The thing is, John Noble on his own gives me more the incentive to feel sorry for him and want him saved than when his parents interact with him. That amazing scene after he's scolded where he's sitting like a Pinocchio that's grounded: amazing. I felt so sorry for him and wanted to give him a hug. They messed up by making him both a puppet and a mastermind.

 

So the next time you guys are sick but need to go to work anyway you're ok with some man you hardly know slipping you a roofie because it's better for you to rest, and you'll laugh about it later?

First of all, sleeping pills/medication/whatever and roofies are a very different things, it's not like it was to compromise his memories or control his behaviour. Also he just was going to get in the way of the investigation and he needed to rest. It was funny because he was being the typical grumpy man-child who won't listen when told he needs to rest.

[ChelseaNH]

Ichabroke works?

 

In much the same way that housewives work:  unpaid, but nonetheless vital.

[phoenics]

In much the same way that housewives work:  unpaid, but nonetheless vital.

Oh - wait - so Abbie and Ichabod are married now?

Nope - not married - he's still married to Katrina... who also isn't working... yet somehow both of them are living off of Abbie... Humph... does Ichabod still think it's 1753 or something back when they had folks who worked for them for free?

The only work Ichabod has been doing is in Witnessing - and lately he's been doing less of that and more of the whining, sitting and watching tv with Katrina, or whining some more. And in Mama, he was clearly too sick to help them, so in that case - he needed to stay home and get some rest. I'm more than glad Hawley slipped him something in his soup.

Edited November 20, 2014 by phoenics

[DeLurker]

Can't they get Katrina a new outfit besides that stupid corset and jeans?

Someone in power has a raging woody for Katia Winter so she's contractually obligated to have heaving bosoms on display and now she's in the corset & leggings/jogging.

She's probably a lousy witch because she is chronically under-oxygenated from the wincing required to get the requisite boobage.

[kimberella]

I think that had the Cranes made their argument as eloquently as you've stated here, they might have been able to sway us (the audience) to their side. As it is, we have Crane ordering Abbie around and Katrina stating that only her opinion matters. They come off as selfish, self righteous and only caring about Henry because he's their "blood", while not caring about anyone else. That's what has aired. Maybe - maybe - the writers thought of this as you do, but that's not what they wrote.

To illustrate this point, the only time Crane appealed to his son on behalf of anyone's safety, it was when Katrina was in danger. He just doesn't care about anyone else's life. For him and his wife, it's not about gaining a powerful ally and thwart Moloch's plans, because nothing they've done or said indicates anything like that.

Henry has never showed any conflict or glimmer of doubt about his allegiances to his parents. He consciously chose a side and he revels in that choice. Nobody can help or redeem a person, who doesn't want to be helped.

Even if at this point Abbie and Crane don't have a way to kill Henry, having this discussion about redemption is stopping them in their tracks, because they are not actively looking for a way to do it. He's powerful and difficult to kill, so was Abraham and yet Crane almost managed to kill him, hadn't his wife intervened. I'm sure there is a way to stop Henry and even if it takes time to find it, they shouldn't waste it discussing his worthiness and just his, because nobody cares about Abraham, Andy or any other potentially redeemable monster they've encountered.

 

So the next time you guys are sick but need to go to work anyway you're ok with some man you hardly know slipping you a roofie because it's better for you to rest, and you'll laugh about it later?

No, I wouldn't laugh if they did it to me. That doesn't mean I don't approve Hawley doing it to Crane. It managed to shut that asshole up for a while.

 

Ichabroke works?

He leeches.

[Indi]

In much the same way that housewives work:  unpaid, but nonetheless vital.

 

I have yet to see him cooking dinner for Abbie or do anything for her really. He behaves very much like, what he is, really: a nobleman, who thinks he's better than everyone else and who likes to order "his servants" (Abbie) around. Abbie has the double load of doing the actual work and take care of that useless twit.

[Helena Dax]

He behaves very much like, what he is, really: a nobleman, who thinks he's better than everyone else and who likes to order "his servants" (Abbie) around. Abbie has the double load of doing the actual work and take care of that useless twit.

 

That's not what happens in the show I'm watching.

[wayne67]

It does seem that everyone is bringing their personal perspective to this show and its coloring their enjoyment of it to one extent or another but that's the joy of a subjective medium. It'd be a dull discussion if we all agreed with each other :P lol

 

For me I was happy to take a break from Crane for an episode so we could see more of the Jenny Abbie interaction that has been absent lately.

 

Hawley was a neutral as he had little effect on the overall effectiveness on the mission, he threw in the ocassional suggestion and did a bit of grunt work but nothing spectacular like Jenny's new found magic powers and the flashbacks rounding out her backstory.

 

Katrina's actions were confusing so I'm going with my own head canon of she was faking it, tried to avoid touching the baby because she knew it was evil but felt compelled to play along because Henry might be a stronger magical practictioner than her, so played along and afterwards figured the contact corrupted her in some way and went for a poison option while the others were distracted on their typical nightly nefarious actions (whatever those might be).

 

I definitely appreciated the focus on the monster of the week that didn't have any apparent convoluted connection to the Cranes for a change (Icky, Grumpy or Dopey). It's nice to have a break from the CFD since it seems to have swallowed up most of season 2 with little in the way of payoff.

[phoenics]

That's not what happens in the show I'm watching.

I'm rather sad that S2 has colored my opinion so poorly of Ichabod. I loved him last season. Though last season I couldn't watch most of the season (work was killing me so I couldn't watch real time) - I had to catch up a lot of times on my DVR so I didn't have time to think about it much. I do remember the map thing bothered me but Tom sold that scene with Abbie in the church so well that I was able to look past it and hope for more. That part where he and Katrina were saying the chant to leave and for the last part of it he turns and gives this searing look at Abby - man. That was ... Whew.

But this season the way he treats Abbie grates. And I was never really one to be upset that Abbie was paying his way (Reyes), until he and Katrina started throwing their weight around. Abbie herself said Katrina was condescending. And Ichabod has this nasty habit of yelling at Abbie when he doesn't get his way. The way he told Abbie to protect Katrina rankled me so much. And that "vote" felt so unfair to me.

I'm not sure the writers understand how jerky they've made Ichabod. During the Succubus eppy I actually hated that he tagged along to the crime scene with Abbie and I'm sad that the mess with Katrina and Henry has made me dislike him do much. Plus I'm concerned the writers don't think he's in any way in the wrong so he will never apologize. And I'm worried they will redeem Henry, justifying all of Ivhabod's actions and that really makes me upset.

Ichabod may be that dude I liked in S1 but he's not acting like him. And he's breaking oaths he made to Abbie left and right. All while living off of her.

That's a huge reason I reacted with relief that Hawley spiked his soup. Crane had just snapped on Abbie and for me it was either spiked soup or someone knocking his bleep out, lol.

Edited November 20, 2014 by phoenics

[BrokenRemote]

Ichabroke works?

It seems to me that, recent bad writing or not, the entire premise of the show is that Abbie AND Ichabod are tasked with saving the world. So yes, he has a pretty important job. I have not seen one indication that Ichabod intends to let the world burn in order to save Henry, as so many seem to be inferring. Are you seriously saying Ichabod has not been helping at all?

I feel like people are basically ready to write off the man the show--along withAbbie--is about rather than wishing the writers would just go back to writing him as well as he was written in Season 1.

As much as the Mills sisters are awesome, this is not a show about 2 sisters saving the world. Are we seriously calling for a show based on The Legend of Sleepy Hollow to leave out Ichabod Crane? I'm not arguing he hasn't been written poorly lately, but really? We don't want him fixed? He just sucks and that's that?

Also, to the person that mentioned natural remedies, I can't think of one that would render a large man instantly unconscious pretty much mid-sentence when given in a safe dose. Not to mention that demons are after the two Witnesses, and Hawley basically rendered Ichabod unable to defend himself if found and attacked.

See the thing is, I am not against Henry being redeemed. They pretty much said it would happen in every interview over the hiatus. The problem is I was expecting to see Katrina as part of the team earlier on and have scenes with the Cranes discussing the fact that they want to help their son and be there for him. Then they could have used the confrontations between them and him more sparingly and then have them fight while holding back because of course they don't want to kill their son.

My problem with the collaterals is the fact that they, as a team of heroes, should always be trying to avoid innocents' deaths. So when there is something that could be preemptively stopped and isn't, it's a bad look on all of them. They should be shown researching how to kill a Horseman while looking forlorn. I also was super annoyed at both Abbie and Crane for letting the Kindred roam free without knowing if he could be a danger to others.

I don't need them to succeed at separating the mission from their parenthood, I just need them to try. That's my problem, I think I liked the idea that of Cranes having to think about what's right vs what's easier on their feelings. I wanted to see the struggle, feel bad for them and then be rewarded by figuring out that trying to save Henry is also right. It might be cliché but I always like a moving redemption story. If that had happened, I'm sure we would have been like "Why are you torturing yourselves ya idjits, just try to covert him!" but at least it's evidence that they are ready to sacrifice what they hold dear to complete their mission.

As for if it had been Jenny, it would have been like how Abbie handled Joe. Prepared to kill him if that's the only choice but really hoping to save him before she has to kill him and s/he hurts more people. Actually she probably would not even try to get her hopes up if it was Jenny because it might hurt too much if she's not enough to save her sister. Her version of unreasonable could be the other extreme of the spectrum (she would feel responsible for Jenny being the Horseman and insist on being the one to destroy her) but at least it would show that she understands the stakes here.

It's more the idea that it seems that they are putting his redemption above their mission and that they think the decision only impacts them. That's what the show is practically spelling out for us (Also Albert Kim said that we are supposed to sympathise with the Cranes but still see Henry more as a threat than a potential ally, my guess is over time we are supposed to be won over by the idea of saving him). They had that whole scene saying that Jeremy is Crane's weakness.

The other thing is they have seen the effects of Henry's schemes on people that are allies and friends, and I didn't get enough of that "I am so sorry my son did that to you". It was a sign that Crane just has selective everything when it comes to his family and both he and Katrina don't make the best choices. I just wish to have seen more of the typical my son/friend/brother has turned evil thing where they only go on the defensive if they have to and will try to stop their loved ones from causing damage but you see the pain in the good guys. The problem is, what I'm seeing is closer to petulance than heartbreak from the Cranes. I see some pain from Katrina from time to time but actually there has been too much interaction with Henry that looks antagonistic instead of pleading.

This is pretty much what I feel went wrong there. The thing is, John Noble on his own gives me more the incentive to feel sorry for him and want him saved than when his parents interact with him. That amazing scene after he's scolded where he's sitting like a Pinocchio that's grounded: amazing. I felt so sorry for him and wanted to give him a hug. They messed up by making him both a puppet and a mastermind.

First of all, sleeping pills/medication/whatever and roofies are a very different things, it's not like it was to compromise his memories or control his behaviour. Also he just was going to get in the way of the investigation and he needed to rest. It was funny because he was being the typical grumpy man-child who won't listen when told he needs to rest.

Sleeping pills and roofies are not really different when given to someone against their will. I would also argue that a safe dose of sleeping pills will not knock out a large man, sick or not, within 30 seconds. Edited November 20, 2014 by BrokenRemote

[BestestAuntEver]

It seems to me that, recent bad writing or not, the entire premise of the show is that Abbie AND Ichabod are tasked with saving the world. So yes, he has a pretty important job. I have not seen one indication that Ichabod intends to let the world burn in order to save Henry, as so many seem to be inferring. Are you seriously saying Ichabod has not been helping at all?

 

Financially, NO! The problem I see, is that Abbie has her job as a police officer that she does in order to provide a living foe herself. She is also taking her hard earned money to support  the unappreciative Ichabroke & at times his StruggleWitch Wife Katrina. He can get a job and provide for himself and buy his wife all the damn quince tea she wants.Food, toiletries and revolutionary clothing isn't cheap.

I feel like people are basically ready to write off the man the show--along withAbbie--is about rather than wishing the writers would just go back to writing him as well as he was written in Season 1.

 

As much as the Mills sisters are awesome, this is not a show about 2 sisters saving the world. Are we seriously calling for a show based on The Legend of Sleepy Hollow to leave out Ichabod Crane? I'm not arguing he hasn't been written poorly lately, but really? We don't want him fixed? He just sucks and that's that?

 

 

Some people have already written Crane off. Personally, I don't want Abbie to have to deal with his ass outside of being a witness. I know some who didn't come back this season due to the finale. All the CFD and the deplorable way the Cranes have treated Abbie like a servant there to fulfill their needs, solidifies their choice  to quit the show.  I'm already thinking I won't watch another show live. I'm even considering saving the episodes up until episode #15  airs ,since that's the episode they are filming now. This way I can see if they are trying to make changes or sticking to the course. If they are sticking to the course, I'm out.

 

The problem I have is, I don't trust the writers to fix anything. They have yet to acknowledge any of their shortcomings when it comes to Abbie as a witness or POC. therefor I doubt they will address Ichabrokes douchiness towards Abbie.

[HalcyonDays]

I'm rather sad that S2 has colored my opinion so poorly of Ichabod. I loved him last season. But this season the way he treats Abbie grates. And I was never really one to be upset that Abbie was paying his way (Reyes), until he and Katrina started throwing their weight around. Abbie herself said Katrina was condescending. And Ichabod has this nasty habit of yelling at Abbie when he doesn't get his way. The way he told Abbie to protect Katrina rankled me so much. And that "vote" felt so unfair to me.

I'm not sure the writers understand how jerky they've made Ichabod. Ichabod may be that dude I liked in S1 but he's not acting like him. And he's breaking oaths he made to Abbie left and right. All while living off of her.

 

I'm the same way for season 1 - loved Ichabod to death (still want to drag him to bed but anyhoo *grin*) but even around the end of season 1, he started acting a bit like a jerk with regards to Katrina. But I did defend it, because it is his wife and he loves her. But that was where common sense was starting to leave him. Hmm..connection. Katrina = dwindling common sense.

 

This year though, his behaviour has been severely modified, where he is much more of a jerk. Mison is quoted as stating its a fine line with Ichabod - that he can be a jerk, and that line has been crossed, but it's ONLY crossed with regards to Henry and moreso Katrina. That where he gets stupid and irritating, etc. And I agree - I think the writers don't realize it.

 

To me, it's a combination of things. I get he wants his wife back. I get that he is really hurt about the kid, and wants his child/family back. The disconnect happens because we see him spouting vows to Abbie about how it's only the two of them, how they must only trust each other, etc. whenever they are alone, then does a complete 180 on it the moment Katrina enters the picture. For me, it's Ichabod dishonouring Abbie and breaking his vows - and this is coming from a man whom honour and duty is everything. Like I said before- character assassination.

 

Sleeping pills and roofies are not really different when given to someone against their will. I would also argue that a safe dose of sleeping pills will not knock out a large man, sick or not, within 30 seconds.

 

I'm no where near as tall/big as Crane/Mison, and a dose of sleeping pills barely works on me. Don't know about roofies though (thank god).

 

Financially, NO! The problem I see, is that Abbie has her job as a police officer that she does in order to provide a living foe herself. She is also taking her hard earned money to support  the unappreciative Ichabroke & at times his StruggleWitch Wife Katrina. He can get a job and provide for himself and buy his wife all the damn quince tea she wants.Food, toiletries and revolutionary clothing isn't cheap.

 

I get why everyone is upset about the financial aspect of it, but it's a TV Show. What does one expect? It's the same as in Friends, where they could afford expensive clothes and apartments when one worked as a waitress, or the other was unemployed for weeks/ months. Except for one off line, they aren't going to bother with explaining it.

 

No one ever questions where Abbie gets the time to do what she does. She is like every other cop on TV. "Has" a job, but you rarely see her doing it, in the office doing paperwork, etc. She (like the others) are out in the field, with some other person who is NOT a cop, investigating things. How on earth is she working her day job on cases and standard day to day stuff, and ALSO have time to pop into the cabin during daytime to work on supernatural cases. Does she sleep?

 

Same with Ichabod - he's a consultant that the SHPD took on, without much info on him. Frank fakes some info for him, but Reyes didn't bother to look up paperwork for his background. She just takes him back, no questions asked.  Oh, and the theory is that Ichabod is paid to be a consultant, so he DOES have some money. The time Reyes kicked him out were the times he has no money ( I think that's what the show was saying).

 

And I notice that people talk about Crane staying in the cabin for free, but no one mentions how strange it is for that cabin to be available?? Joe Corbin - the SON of August Corbin - who was tasked with taking over his father's investigations into the demon stuff, was NOT left the cabin in August's will? Abbie I think even mentions that all of the papers and research that August gathered is in the cabin, which is why they hang out there. But the son, who was to take over, doesn't inherit the cabin. His "inheritance" is a box with some red liquid called jinjin? WTH? So who owns the cabin? No one has ever asked that, I've never seen anyone comment on it. It's just accepted as is.

 

My point in all of this is this: Suspension of Disbelief.

 

The financial support doesn't matter, becaase like with it, there are strange things that in the real world, would never happen, but it suits the show. Like with Mahattanites affording million dollar places on minimum wage. It just is and it not important in the grand scheme of things. Hope that makes sense.

[cynic]

Also, to the person that mentioned natural remedies, I can't think of one that would render a large man instantly unconscious pretty much mid-sentence when given in a safe dose. Not to mention that demons are after the two Witnesses, and Hawley basically rendered Ichabod unable to defend himself if found and attacked.

Sleeping pills and roofies are not really different when given to someone against their will. I would also argue that a safe dose of sleeping pills will not knock out a large man, sick or not, within 30 seconds.

I would chalk up the effectiveness of whatever Hawley gave him to typical TV exaggeration rather than see it as any indication of the dosage. People on TV seem to pass out after a teaspoon of Nyquil and dance on tables after one Long Island ice tea.

As for Crane's demeanor of late: I adore him, but yeah, he's kinda been a jerk about Katrina and Henry. I think it's supposed to be leading up to a break between him and Abbie for "dramatic purposes". Just another example of the writers not understanding what makes the show work.

If Henry is redeemed proving Crane/Katrina right and he joins Team Witness after all the misery and death he's caused, I am so done with this show.

[cassandle]

But - I want scary horsemen back. Henry and Abraham? Not scary anymore. Neither is Moloch.

This is something that's been bothering me all season--the way Moloch is shown now.  Last season he was always sort of blurry and you couldn't really see exactly what he looked like.  It was more of a Jaws thing where you become more afraid because of what you can't see or what you don't know.  But this season he just looks like a dude in a costume.  In the episode (the Pilot?) where Andy gets his neck slammed back and Abbie and Crane see Moloch shuffle off in the mirror...it doesn't matter how many time I see that--it still scares the bejeezus out of me every time because of the way he moves and how out of focus he is.  But now?  It's just, "Oh, there's Moloch--meh".  

[phoenics]

My point in all of this is this: Suspension of Disbelief.

 

The financial support doesn't matter, becaase like with it, there are strange things that in the real world, would never happen, but it suits the show. Like with Mahattanites affording million dollar places on minimum wage. It just is and it not important in the grand scheme of things. Hope that makes sense.

I think - for me - that Suspension of Disbelief requires me to actively suspend my belief. And prior to this year, I didn't care about all of the "Ichabroke" memes I saw on tumblr and other places. I just loved the show (and Ichabod) and I gladly suspended my belief.

But this season? Ichabod is barely tolerable - and even the show's attempts to do one of his moments have started to fall flat for me - thus my willingness to suspend my belief has waned.

Wherease before, I wouldn't notice certain things, well now they are glaring. My main issue is that with the show possibly ignoring how douchey Ichabod has been, it's almost like they are saying his behavior is okay - when clearly it's not. So if they never have Abbie literally go off on him (if any time was the time to go Angry Black Woman on anyone, now is the time).

I do wonder if something happens with Ichabod, Abbie and Katrina that sets Abbie off and causes a rift between the Witnesses in the winter finale...

As long as the rift doesn't last and they deal with the issues, then I'm fine with that - and as long as it's ICHABOD who is contrite, apologetic and that he CHANGES his behavior, then I'm fine with that... otherwise... nope.

This is something that's been bothering me all season--the way Moloch is shown now.  Last season he was always sort of blurry and you couldn't really see exactly what he looked like.  It was more of a Jaws thing where you become more afraid because of what you can't see or what you don't know.  But this season he just looks like a dude in a costume.  In the episode (the Pilot?) where Andy gets his neck slammed back and Abbie and Crane see Moloch shuffle off in the mirror...it doesn't matter how many time I see that--it still scares the bejeezus out of me every time because of the way he moves and how out of focus he is.  But now?  It's just, "Oh, there's Moloch--meh".

YES! Exactly! I'm actually upset that they made him "visible"... he freaked me out all last season and I remember having to sleep with the lights on and being afraid of my shadow after that neck-snapping thing... plus the whole "moving so fast" thing was horribly scary too - I'm upset they stopped doing that... it was very effective.

[ChelseaNH]

In much the same way that housewives work:  unpaid, but nonetheless vital.

I have yet to see him cooking dinner for Abbie or do anything for her really.

 

As this appears to be a common mistake, I will point out: An analogy is not an equivalence.

[Limelight]

 

This is something that's been bothering me all season--the way Moloch is shown now.  Last season he was always sort of blurry and you couldn't really see exactly what he looked like.  It was more of a Jaws thing where you become more afraid because of what you can't see or what you don't know.  But this season he just looks like a dude in a costume.  In the episode (the Pilot?) where Andy gets his neck slammed back and Abbie and Crane see Moloch shuffle off in the mirror...it doesn't matter how many time I see that--it still scares the bejeezus out of me every time because of the way he moves and how out of focus he is.  But now?  It's just, "Oh, there's Moloch--meh". 

 

 

I remember jumping and spilling tea on myself (just plain green tea, not quince!) when Molloch ran at the mirror and it shattered in one episode. It was that scary and surprising. I don't remember the exact episode but with the Headless Horseman who wouldn't die no matter what they did and that scary, vibrating Molloch it was truly frightening.  Now we have Molloch talking to Henry and he just looks like something from a Buffy episode, he's just not scary anymore.

 

I was watching this week's episode with my husband and he saw little, baby Molloch and said "Oh, he's kind of cute, I'd love him for our Halloween display?" that's what this show is now. It used to be suspenseful, fun and frightening and now we're stuck with cute, little demons and a Headless Horseman declaring how much do I love thee, Katrina! Depressing.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Limelight

[phoenics]

As this appears to be a common mistake, I will point out: An analogy is not an equivalence.

Actually I think that analogy can be a powerful indicator of equivalence, or just used to prove a point. I think the problem is when someone makes a false equivalency - which is what your example of a housewife was.

 

[DearEvette]

Who is to say that time spent trying to kill Henry - which cannot be remotely easy, and could take months if not years - is better than time spent attempting to redeem him?  These are not mutually exclusive tasks.  The team will continue to gather info/weapons to take out Moloch simultaneously with the Cranes trying to connect with Henry. 

 

If this was something the show was actually showing, rather than us  fanwanking then it would be more powerful and we as an audience would probably be more conflicted about Henry on behalf of the Cranes.

 

Unfortunately, that is not what they are doing, imo.  One of my biggest complaints about this season to date is the fact that Abbie and Ichabod are not actively fighting Moloch.  They are just reacting to Henry.   Since they added on five episodes, then they had a lot more room to play with these sorts of things. As it is it feels like they frittered it all away.

 

When Abbie & Ichabod found out Irving sold his soul and therefore had a connection to Henry, why not use him as a spy to gather intel?  He's a police captain and presumably trained in interrogation.  Why wait for 9 whole episodes to even make that suggestion?

 

Why not use Jenny and Hawley to track down weapons and lore they could use to defeat Moloch?  These two are world-traveling artifact hunters with a fuck ton of arcane knowledge between them and yet Jenny is practically a face on a milk carton. 

 

Why not actively show Katrina working Henry.  She's made a couple of tepid overtures to him, where he ruthlessly shut her down.  In fact, Abraham seems more susceptible than Henry, and  that isn't because it is anything they showing her doing, but just because Abraham is still in love with her.

 

I  just find it unbelievably hard to sympathize with Katrina and Ichabod on the subject of Henry because the show has not convinced me that redemption is the best course of action.  And not only that, but Katrina and Ichabod come off as incredibly entitled when talk about it as a course of action.  Like it is something that everybody needs to do just because it is the way they want it. This is yet another place where I think the show fell down by having the two of them gang up on Abbie.  It felt shitty and unfair, especially since Katrina had swanned in out of nowhere and did nothing except awake from a faint to make demands.  If Jenny or Frank had been around to take Abbie's side, it might have felt like a more balanced  argument, and again given the audience more to consider.  But as it was, it was guaranteed to make the audience sympathize more with Abbie. 

 

Added to that, it just isn't exciting when your season long Big Bad just turns out to be a Big Baby.  Ina show like this, you don't want to save your foes, you want to kill their asses!

Edited November 20, 2014 by DearEvette

[ChelseaNH]

Actually I think that analogy can be a powerful indicator of equivalence, or just used to prove a point. I think the problem is when someone makes a false equivalency - which is what your example of a housewife was.

 

You say that it "can be" an equivalence, but not that it must be an equivalence -- therefore, sometimes an analogy isn't an equivalence.

 

When people say managing programmers is like herding cats, they don't mean that software development managers actually herd cats.  Similarly, when I say that Ichabod's work is like a housewife's work (in that they are both unpaid but vital), I don't mean that Ichabod is a housewife.

 

Yes, I'm using an analogy to explain analogies.

[stealinghome]

As for Crane's demeanor of late: I adore him, but yeah, he's kinda been a jerk about Katrina and Henry. I think it's supposed to be leading up to a break between him and Abbie for "dramatic purposes". Just another example of the writers not understanding what makes the show work.

See, I feel the exact opposite. I think they've been building up much more friction between Ichabod and Katrina, tbh, so that ultimately Ichabod will choose Abbie and his marriage will effectively be over. I mean, they pretty much telegraphed this in the episode where they had both Katrina and Ichabod admit that things have just changed too much for them ever to go back to who/how they were.

 

Unfortunately, that is not what they are doing, imo.  One of my biggest complaints about this season to date is the fact that Abbie and Ichabod are not actively fighting Moloch.  They are just reacting to Henry.   Since they added on five episodes, then they had a lot more room to play with these sorts of things. As it is it feels like they frittered it all away.

This. So much this. It's weird, because as much as I totally agree that the Crane Family Drama has been too much of S2 (and not well written to boot), I also feel like the show has been really unimaginative in changing the status quo this season. They've been too afraid to really shake up the show in the way I thought S1 would naturally lead them to shake it up. So you have Abbie and Ichabod waiting around for bad things to happen instead of being even somewhat proactive; you have the show totally not exploring Jenny as a witch (which is where I totally, totally thought we were going after S1, which also would have made room for them to do something more interesting with Katrina than reduce her to constant damsel prisoner); and Henry and Headless still seem to sit around on their hands 99% of the time.

[wayne67]

Henry and Headless still seem to sit around on their hands 99% of the time

 

This is a similar issue I have to Crane's activities.

 

Personally fictional characters having more disposable income than their job doesn't bother me. The fact that sitcom dads while employed seldom are seen at work/working doesn't bother me.

 

The problem with Crane not having his own job other than it seems odd for a man from 2 centuries ago to settle for being supported by a woman who is not a family member or wife is that his free time apparently consists of random hobbies. Which for a show about friends that live together like Friends or Cougar Town makes sense. It's grating here.

 

Crane is a Witness during the apocalypse, his wife is shacked up with two Horsemen of the Apocalypse and a demon baby and he's just waiting around. He apparently has tonnes of free time so his lack of visible activity on screen towards researching demons, honing his fighting skills and/or redeeming or destroying his son. He has time to hang out with a bunch of people who want to play dress up, catch up on reality tv, obsess about his estranged wife and petulant evil son and does nothing to either support himself or contribute to the war effort unless it's reactionary.

 

Abbie meanwhile has no hobbies and has a job as a police officer (that we get the ocassional snapshot of during crime scenes and this episode) and her dreams are plagued by visions and SHE fights demons in her spare time.

 

The difference is glaring. Abbie devotes herself to stopping the apocalypse. Crane name drops and complains about his good old days when being a white rich dude meant you got to meet everyone. Oh and goes on about wanting to redeem his son without having even the slightest plan to do so.

 

That said I wish someone would try and find the Kindred or try and learn some spells proactively.

 

There's a lack of urgency in this season. The apocalypse isn't looming just above our heroes, it's just drifting lazily in the distance.

 

The only person on Team Evil trying to do stuff is Henry. Abraham and the Hessians and even Moloch himself seem to be just killing time offscreen doing something pointless.

Edited November 20, 2014 by wayne67

[HalcyonDays]

Alright everyone - let's all move on from the nitpicking about who is paying Ichabod's bills and the intrepretion of language. Not everyone will agree 100% with what is being said in this thread (hey - looking at you SH writers). Let's appreciate the good discussion and move back to discussing the episode Mama. Thank you.

[DeLurker]

 

I remember jumping and spilling tea on myself (just plain green tea, not quince!)

Where's Abraham when you need him?  But clarifying "not quince" amused me greatly so thank you for the chuckle!

 

I've been kinda bugged by how Nurse Ratched conjured up actual pills that showed up in the blood tests.  Most likely I just need to up my meds so an appropriate level of suspension of disbelief can take effect.

[phoenics]

Sorry - posted this before seeing HalcyonDays' post.

Edited November 20, 2014 by phoenics

[phoenics]

There's a lack of urgency in this season. The apocalypse isn't looming just above our heroes, it's just drifting lazily in the distance.

 

The only person on Team Evil trying to do stuff is Henry. Abraham and the Hessians and even Moloch himself seem to be just killing time offscreen doing something pointless.

 

This is a great point!  I think this sums up a lot of my frustration this season too.  I thought Mama did a great job in illustrating the urgency of the Apocalypse - by bringing back the "hunted" idea that seemed to haunt Abbie and Ichabod and especially Jenny during the first season.  In this episode, clearly Mama Mills was tormented and literally hunted by demons because one of her daughters was a Witness.  Remember last season when Moloch wanted Abbie delivered to him?

 

Did we ever find out why, specifically?  Did he just want her soul?  Did he just want to separate the Witnesses and defeat them that way?

 

It feels like the writers threw out that awesome sense of being "hunted" from the show and replaced it with CFD instead and the end result is that the sense of urgency from the show has been lost.  The sense of horror and terror has been lost.

 

Have you guys ever watched a horror movie and then spent the night being terrified that something from the movie was going to get you?  Like you were just haunted by your thoughts and worried you'd be hunted by imaginary scary things?

 

That's how it felt last season with Abbie and Moloch being after her.  And now this season - Moloch doesn't seem to care about Abbie at all - and until Mama - you'd never think he even worried about Abbie much.  Jenny WAS hunted by demons - she was even possessed by one... 

 

All of that was just thrown away this season and Mama was the first episode where I felt that sense of fear of being hunted coming back - but of course next week it's all back to CFD again.  It's a shame, really.

[wayne67]

Have you guys ever watched a horror movie and then spent the night being terrified that something from the movie was going to get you?  Like you were just haunted by your thoughts and worried you'd be hunted by imaginary scary things?

 

I spent the last 4 nights in a hospital and all my dreams involved being swarmed by Sentinels from Days of Future past. (all the beeping I suppose)

 

Part of the reason why I liked this episodes villain. It was just a low key crazy ghost of a human continuing on her life's ambition of being crazy and getting people to kill themselves.

 

It's nice having villains just be villains. Not every antagonist has to have depth and backstory to work in some cases that counters their scariness factor.

 

Death was scarier before he got a head and kept talking to Katrina. Henry being the Horseman of War was shocking in the season finale and now 90% of his screen time comes across as him being a whiny man child getting disproportionate revenge for his parents not being around to protect him from life. He's supposed to be Moloch's Dragon and yet we don't see him use any interesting offensive magic.

 

P.s can someone tell me how to add the person's name when I do quotes ?

[fantique]

I feel like people are basically ready to write off the man the show--along withAbbie--is about rather than wishing the writers would just go back to writing him as well as he was written in Season 1.

 

Also, to the person that mentioned natural remedies, I can't think of one that would render a large man instantly unconscious pretty much mid-sentence when given in a safe dose. Not to mention that demons are after the two Witnesses, and Hawley basically rendered Ichabod unable to defend himself if found and attacked.

Sleeping pills and roofies are not really different when given to someone against their will. I would also argue that a safe dose of sleeping pills will not knock out a large man, sick or not, within 30 seconds.

I didn't get that's how some people felt, I see it more as a longing for season 1 style characterisation than dismissal of the character. I think most people agree that it's the writing of the story that's making Crane act a little less savoury (for some people) than last year. I take that to mean they want the writers to go back to that.

 

Re: sleeping drugs. If he was as sick as they were indicating, he would have been defenceless regardless of whether he was awake or not. It's always the case that the enemy might get the drop on them at any moment. I'm not sure if you're saying Hawley gave him actual roofies ( or a drug of similar level of maliciousness and negative effect on the body) or if you're saying it's the same as if he did. I can't speak to the roofie argument because I don't think they were roofies. I think with roofies there is memory loss and It didn't seem to have occurred here. I guess my thought was that the intent wasn't malicious (both in the show for Hawley and from the writers; I don't think they were saying using date-rape drugs on people is ok). But hey, it bothered you and that's your right. 

 

Unfortunately, that is not what they are doing, imo.  One of my biggest complaints about this season to date is the fact that Abbie and Ichabod are not actively fighting Moloch.  They are just reacting to Henry.   Since they added on five episodes, then they had a lot more room to play with these sorts of things. As it is it feels like they frittered it all away.

Yeah...It seems that all the "extra" episodes were used in this half of the season and the really should have had it 3 this fall and 2 next spring just in case they need more story telling berth and if there wasn't a need for the extra it could have been pure monster of the week to relieve tension between big stakes episodes or an episode where we find out tons about Jenny's travels, Reyes' backstory, Irving's family situation, etc. The pacing both from a narrative standpoint and in the show seems off in that it feels too much like in limbo. Deliverance and this episode really are the first ones with a believably permanent threat since the premiere. I heard someone say that when equating to the 13 episodes season, this is effectively the 4th episode because someone was complaining that, really, this episode should have happened far sooner. I agreed on both accounts. I feel like the writers used up all their bonus points earlier in the game than is wiser. I liked episodes 2-6 (I felt they were increasingly improving in quality as singular episodes) but they all really didn't feel like we were a step closer to anything on either team. Just got an idea and taking it to the speculations' thread.

Edited November 21, 2014 by fantique

[DearEvette]

P.s can someone tell me how to add the person's name when I do quotes ?

 

Wayne, at the bottom left of the post you want to quote there are quote marks, you can click that and it will add that person's post in a quote box into your next post.  You can go into the box and remove the parts you don't want to quote.  And when you submit your reply, the person's name will be appended to the quote.

[wayne67]

Wayne, at the bottom left of the post you want to quote there are quote marks, you can click that and it will add that person's post in a quote box into your next post.  You can go into the box and remove the parts you don't want to quote.  And when you submit your reply, the person's name will be appended to the quote.

 

Thanks for the info...

 

In relation to this episode I'm going to give it an 8 out of 10.

 

It loses points for Katrina Henry and Baby Moloch. I don't find that storyline interesting in execution. It should be ramping up the stakes towards the final confrontation but I'm like hmmm baby/ preadolescent anti christ.