S02.E09: Mama

[HalcyonDays]

Well, I fell asleep before this show came on and only woke up to see the last 10 or 15 minutes. Reading here, it seems like most of you liked it but for some reason I don't feel it's worth my time to watch online ... is it? I mean, Jenny's back, Irving's loose, baby is now a youngster (albeit a gorgeous one). And Abbie/Jenny realize their mom was okay after all. Plus Crane is missing for the episode, replaced by Hawley. Sounds like that about sums it up.

 

Did I miss anything?

 

Yeah, a great episode with some lovely sister moments with Abbie and Jenny, closure for the Mills sisters and lots of pulling of heart strings, and a creepy story! It's really good - I highly recommend you watch it.

 

I really hope that Crane's devotion to Katrina implodes on him.  Because with her around he's an asshole.

 

Yes he is - which is why he needs to be taught a lesson, and be humbled very soon. It really makes me sad that the writers managed to destroy his character so much that he has turned into such a dick. He was so amazing last year, and now you side-eye him. Breaks my heart.

 

Man I can't wait for Katrina to check out permanently...ug, what a waste of precious air time.

 

I was just trolling around fanfic sites for SH stories (don't judge me!) and I was saddened that there is a whole contingent of Ichabod&Katrina 4EVA shippers out there...how disappointing.

 

I agree - maybe in the season finale? I can hope, right? Because every other character contributes except for her. Katrina causes problems, not solves them.

 

As for the shippers -  yeah, read some comments that said they wanted the couple to have ANOTHER kid, and said that they would be the best parents evah. Yeah sure. *rolls eyes* Ichabod, yes. Katrina...no. Show, do NOT have them spawn out another kid, please? No more demon babies. No more drama. No more them.

[GracieV]

I think it's worth watching... I am rewatching now and I think there is a ton of nuance that I missed the first time around.

And I know Hawley isn't popular - but man if Dollar Store Thor ain't growing on me. I like that he can be there and not "take up space" as long as they don't take away screen time from Irving and Jenny. Like someone else said - if he replaces Katrina on Team Witness I'm totally okay with that. The funny look between Ichabod and Hawley before the seance was hilarious (when they joined hands).

Also - Irving says that Mama Mills' commotion gave him an opportunity to break out... but I agree it was suspicious.

I'm so not here for a redemption storyline with Henry - especially when it feels like the only ones who get a shot at redemption will be those blood-tied to Ichabod/Katrina. Unfair - since I don't care about them. I'd rather have Andy saved and Irving saved than Henry of all people.

Ratings are in too - same as last week (we will see if DVR bumps it up at all). I think the show is toast - not even this episode (which was the best of the season - although the premiere was amazing too) could save it... unless the writers show their hand quickly. I'm not sure what they can do to pull in more fans. I think people are fed up and angry. The focus on Katrina and CFD really tanked this show. I don't know whether to gloat with an "I told you so" or be ticked off because I loved this show so much.

The show is doing better than most on Fox. Unless something drastic happens in future episodes to make it tank, TVByTheNumbers has it as "Certain to be Renewed." It just has to beat the other shows on Fox, not other shows on the same night.

[phoenics]

I can't believe this, but I'm going to defend Katrina. Not in the big picture -- I agree that the writers don't know what to do with her, generally, and that her scenes tend to drag down the episodes, and that Willow was a way more competent red-haired witch ;-)  But with respect to Baby Moloch, I think her reactions made sense. Last week, she had the vision, and then, at the end of the episode, she looks down at the baby (with Henry right there) and gives a hesitant smile. This week, she makes a half-hearted attempt to question how the baby got there, and reluctantly picks it up at Henry's behest. All of this seems to me like someone who knows it is a demon baby, but does not want Henry to know that she knows. If she really thought Henry had kidnapped a baby for nefarious purposes, she would have put up more of a fuss about returning it. Then, yes, she did not immediately try to kill it. Doing so would have been unwise. For one thing, she might not know what precisely will kill it. Would dashing it to the floor even work? And if it doesn't work, she would have shown her hand, and would never have another opportunity to kill it. When she noticed the discoloration on her neck, I don't think she thought, for the first time, "It's a demon baby!" Rather, she thought, "Contact with the demon baby is doing something immediately harmful to me, so I don't have time to wait for the best opportunity, I need to try to kill it now with the materials available." And so that's what she set out to do, only to be thwarted by its growth spurt. I don't love this story line, and I'll grant that the writers have given us reason to doubt Katrina's competence, but I'm not seeing any particularly idiotic decisions here on her part.

 

I understand what you're saying - but my question is: If Katrina knew it was a demon baby and that she needed to kill it (and her spell wasn't even to kill it - just to send it back to hell - so she wasn't even going to do what she said), then WHY did she only mix up the potion AFTER she got demon psoriasis?

 

I think the fact that she didn't immediately go to get rid of the baby before then illustrates that she fell for the okeydoke completely.

 

The other thing I just noticed was that when she was talking to Henry in the beginning before she held the baby, she tells him she won't cooperate (or something like that).  But in the previous episode, she clearly goes in and convinces Abraham (who tells Henry) that Katrina knows her place is with them and that she's chosen their side.  So why is she pretending almost like she's still a "captive" in this episode?

 

I think I smell a few rewrites - only I'm not sure which direction it's going (w.r.t. rewrites).

[fantique]

I can't believe this, but I'm going to defend Katrina. Not in the big picture -- I agree that the writers don't know what to do with her, generally, and that her scenes tend to drag down the episodes, and that Willow was a way more competent red-haired witch ;-)  But with respect to Baby Moloch, I think her reactions made sense. Last week, she had the vision, and then, at the end of the episode, she looks down at the baby (with Henry right there) and gives a hesitant smile. This week, she makes a half-hearted attempt to question how the baby got there, and reluctantly picks it up at Henry's behest. All of this seems to me like someone who knows it is a demon baby, but does not want Henry to know that she knows. If she really thought Henry had kidnapped a baby for nefarious purposes, she would have put up more of a fuss about returning it. Then, yes, she did not immediately try to kill it. Doing so would have been unwise. For one thing, she might not know what precisely will kill it. Would dashing it to the floor even work? And if it doesn't work, she would have shown her hand, and would never have another opportunity to kill it. When she noticed the discoloration on her neck, I don't think she thought, for the first time, "It's a demon baby!" Rather, she thought, "Contact with the demon baby is doing something immediately harmful to me, so I don't have time to wait for the best opportunity, I need to try to kill it now with the materials available." And so that's what she set out to do, only to be thwarted by its growth spurt. I don't love this story line, and I'll grant that the writers have given us reason to doubt Katrina's competence, but I'm not seeing any particularly idiotic decisions here on her part.

I genuinely hope that's the case... Because I can take that if that was their idea and it didn't completely come through for me. If they finally let Katrina be awesome and perceptive wrt their enemies, that's great because I want to like her. My only problem was that if they were intending to have her playing along with Henry, that mirror scene took away from the earlier one. Unless it was a clue as to which poison she should use to kill moloch. Your explanation of her reaction is not something that quickly comes to mind when watching that scene so if that was their rationale, they should have found a way to make it come across more accurately. I agree that the rest of the episode showed that she was efficient and ready to do what was necessary and I liked her look at the end when she realised the baby had grown up. Her "Oh shit!" face was good. And that kid being cute makes it that more creepy especially calling her mother.

Edited November 18, 2014 by fantique

[phoenics]

I'm always obsessing about minor points. Why in the world did they leave poor Ichabod curled up in that tiny chair? They should have gotten him at least to a couch. He could probably barely stand up straight after sleeping for many hours in that position.

 

I'm so glad to see Jenny back, and now we'll have her and Irving back in the mix!

 

Man I can't wait for Katrina to check out permanently...ug, what a waste of precious air time.

 

I was just trolling around fanfic sites for SH stories (don't judge me!) and I was saddened that there is a whole contingent of Ichabod&Katrina 4EVA shippers out there...how disappointing.

 

fanfiction.net has a lot of fanfic and there isn't a huge Ichatrina element there - Ichabbie fanfic and general fanfic vastly outnumber Ichatrina on that site.  

[cassandle]

I also want to know what exactly War owning Irving's soul MEANS. If he can't control him (that we know of, at least), what's the point? IMO everyone from Irving himself to Team Witness has been oddly blasé about it. I would be researching the crap out of the potential effects and what Henry/Moloch can do with/to him!

I was surprised when at the start of the show Abbie said she had been researching something--I think that's the first time anyone's bothered to research anything this season.  Maybe I'm just used to Buffy or Angel or Supernatural where they actually read books and call people for information--these characters don't seem to concerned about getting ahead of the game.

[fantique]

1)The other thing I just noticed was that when she was talking to Henry in the beginning before she held the baby, she tells him she won't cooperate (or something like that).  But in the previous episode, she clearly goes in and convinces Abraham (who tells Henry) that Katrina knows her place is with them and that she's chosen their side.  So why is she pretending almost like she's still a "captive" in this episode?

 

2)I think I smell a few rewrites - only I'm not sure which direction it's going (w.r.t. rewrites).

1) That bugged me too! But then I thought about the Katrina-Henry dynamic which is different and he knows that she's playing Abraham. He also knows she and Ichabod are desperate for him to be good. He very obviously thinks that Abraham is a moron.

2) I think if rewrites are happening, they will only be effective in like episode 14, since the mid-season finale has been shot for a few weeks now I believe.

Edited November 18, 2014 by fantique

[ChelseaNH]

whereas Abbie's mom is DEAD

 

Ichabod's mom is DEAD, too.  Along with everyone he ever knew, except Katrina

[GinevradiBenci]

For all the padding that has happened this season, this ep was super crammed. If they had parceled out some of the "Mamma Mills was crazy" stuff - maybe put the Jenny in the car with the exhaust scene in an earlier episode - it would have been much more powerful to see in this ep that it was actually a demonic attack. Instead it had to be brought up and then reversed in the span of about twenty minutes. I feel like the Mills family story deserved more room in the show than a few mentions and then one very crammed episode.

It was good to see the sisters working together again, but boy, did it highlight just how unimportant Hawley is - here, hold this flashlight! I'd like the tv show to have more characters (that don't just get bumped off five seconds after they appear), more room, more something, but since they apparently can't add a character without sidelining a different one, maybe I should watch what I wish for.

 

And you know, I am officially sorry for Katia Winter. She does not deserve the shitty writing they have given her. Here's an episode where she actually starts doing something witchy, but then not only fails in the one job she's there to do, but Jenny gets to step up and do something cool and witchy herself. Why do they insist on handing out similar character traits to multiple people on the show?

[HalcyonDays]

Ichabod's mom is DEAD, too.  Along with everyone he ever knew, except Katrina

Both Abbie and Ichabod has lost a lot, but in different ways, due to circumstance.

 

Ichabod has lost his parents, family and all of his friends and everyone in his life. Katrina is the only one returned to him. Ichabod lost his entire adult life. All of the people he knew, his independence, self-sufficiency, knowledge, etc. His childhood was stable though.

 

Abbie has lost her parents, Corbin, Andy and a few select friends. Jenny is the only one returned to her. Abbie lost most of her childhood. She was denied a stable family, lost her sister, developed severe trust issues, internalized everything and is closed off. Her adulthood was more stable, what with being a cop, going to Quantico, etc.

 

They both have lost a lot in life, but it is different for each character and the way they deal with is it completely different too. Like phoenics or fantique said: Katrina and Crane are willing to sacrifice other people to save themselves/their own family. Abbie is willing to sacrifice her family to save humanity. Now whom do you admire more? Me, I admire Abbie more because she sees the bigger picture, isn't mired in her own selfishness. She is the one I want tasked with saving humanity. The Cranes? They need to stop having tunnel vision and start looking at the bigger picture.

[fantique]

Ichabod's mom is DEAD, too.  Along with everyone he ever knew, except Katrina

You mean the one that probably died of old age in England? Yes, he was estranged with her...the thing is it was not because moloch wanted to ruin his life but because he chose to fight with the americans. She wasn't ripped from him in childhood. I am not making this a pity contest but those two things can not possibly be equally damaging. 

Oops, just saw HalcyonDays' response. Not ganging up on you, I promise, I just had a point to make. I definitely appreciate Ichabod's misfortune and I think the show doesn't always address it when it would add depth to him. I just think that it seems harder on Abbie because she didn't choose to fight, and it had a much more damaging impact since she was targeted from childhood.

Edited November 18, 2014 by fantique

[Indi]

Nicole and Lyndie were amazing.

 

Best acting and chemistry in the show by far!

[TV Juriste]

Other than losing their entire world? I mean, Ichabod was buried for 200 years, and Katrina spent that same time (mostly) in Purgatory. Both of them lost their son - once in their own time, and then in present day when they realized he was still around and was completely twisted up with Moloch, in spite of Katrina's efforts to protect him by giving him up. I guess I just see it differently. Both the Mills' sisters and the Cranes have suffered huge losses, IMO. As fun and funny as it is to have watched Crane dealing with present-day challenges, every once in a while they reminded us how hard it must be for him to have lost his entire world when he "died." Abbie and Jenny of course have suffered terrible losses as well. But I don't see that as one-sided at all. Miles may vary, and all that.

 

Anyway, I liked last night's episode a lot, although yea, I missed Crane and wonder if the show was just giving him a break before next week. Sometimes shows that rely on two strong leads wind up having to give them some breathing room here and there, which is what this felt like. On the other hand, I actually like Hawley, so that was fun to see him helping out (and I loved his stuff with Crane! HA!). Love the Mills' sisters getting some interesting (and tragic) backstory exploration. And above all, so SO happy to see Orlando bust out of that place! I've missed him so much and can't wait to see what happens with him next week! (Now if we could just Andy back in the back half of the season. Feel bad for John Cho about Selfie getting dropped, but I sure would be happy to see our Andy back in Sleepy Hollow).

With respect to the Cranes, they both lived to adulthood. It's sad, but not unusual, that a soldier would die (and stay dead) at age 30-ish. So, to me, the Cranes are gaining a second chance to live their lives 200+ years after all their contemporaries died. By contrast, Jeremy's actions resulted in Grace Dixon's death (and she's still dead). Moloch's machinations tormented Lori Mills and resulted in her death (and she's still dead). The Cranes seem to feel entitled to have a second chance at life even if it means the rest of the world is imperiled by their choices. The show can't survive without the Ichabod character, so I don't want to see him go anywhere, but I definitely don't see the Cranes as making a sacrifice any greater than any of their contemporaries who fought and died. In fact, they both seem oddly selfish, in my humble opinion.

 

In Season 1, Ichabod said something along these lines when he offered to commit suicide to force Headless to leave the Earthly realm. (e.g, I've had the opportunity to see things beyond my wildest imagination, etc etc). Like everyone else, I prefer the Season 1 version of Ichabod (and everything else).  Still hopeful for a Season 3 course correction!!

[phoenics]

Ichabod's mom is DEAD, too.  Along with everyone he ever knew, except Katrina

 

I must have missed where Ichabod's family died due to any of this - didn't they just die of old age AFTER Ichabod died?

 

Or - maybe you mean to reference Mary - who was killed under suspicious circumstances - possibly at Katrina's hands even though she claims it was an accident and she "tripped on a root"?  When you consider that Katrina's magic seems tied to plants and nature ... hmmm... Thanks so much for making me think of that.  Even more shade to throw Katrina/Ichabod's way.

 

But let's get back on track, shall we?

 

Abbie's mom was killed by Moloch.  Ichabod's mom died of apparently natural causes - as did his dad.  Everyone else Ichabod knew died a long time ago - they were supposed to.  It's not normal to be 250+ years old - of course everyone they knew was dead.  But that's part of being a Witness - for Ichabod (I honestly don't believe Katrina should have survived - she should have been long dead).  Abbie seems to take her losses in stride and keep her eyes focused.  Ichabod and Katrina can't seem to focus on anyone but themselves and they've lost the least of everyone else involved.

 

The point - which was fairly clear - is that Abbie's lost her whole family and her side of friends have all been impacted through no fault of their own by this whole thing.  Whereas Ichabod+Katrina haven't lost anything except each other (and there's a chance they'll regain that TRU WUV!) and Henry (and they are trying to save him at the risk of everyone else!).

 

The differences couldn't be more crystal clear.  Ichabod and Katrina haven't faced the same stakes as Abbie and her side - but I hope the writers are leading to them evening those stakes - and killing off Katrina at Henry's hands.  That would humble Ichabod considerably; send Headless on the warpath, and finally end the CFD by having an completely unrepentant Henry.  I'll allow Jeremy to be separated from Henry right before Katrina is offed by him, but that's about all I can spare, lol.

 

Kill the witch.

[tpel]

I understand what you're saying - but my question is: If Katrina knew it was a demon baby and that she needed to kill it (and her spell wasn't even to kill it - just to send it back to hell - so she wasn't even going to do what she said), then WHY did she only mix up the potion AFTER she got demon psoriasis?

I think the fact that she didn't immediately go to get rid of the baby before then illustrates that she fell for the okeydoke completely.

The other thing I just noticed was that when she was talking to Henry in the beginning before she held the baby, she tells him she won't cooperate (or something like that).  But in the previous episode, she clearly goes in and convinces Abraham (who tells Henry) that Katrina knows her place is with them and that she's chosen their side.  So why is she pretending almost like she's still a "captive" in this episode?

 

 

That bugged me too! But then I thought about the Katrina-Henry dynamic which is different and he knows that she's playing Abraham. He also knows she and Ichabod are desperate for him to be good. He very obviously think that Abraham is a moron.

 

 

Yeah, while I hate the fact that Headless has become Abraham the witless fool, I like it that Henry is aware of this fact. Abraham thinks that Katrina has come over to the dark side? Henry's not buying it. He's got daddy issues and mommy issues, but he's not that dumb.

 

I don't think that a character (who has already been established as somewhat passive) not taking immediate action proves that she fell for the ruse. But I absolutely love the term 'demon psoriasis' :-)

 

My favorite scene of the episode was when Abby and Jenny are about to watch the video of their mother. Jenny says she can't do it. In any other show, the hero would either benevolently excuse the sidekick, or would brow-beat her into watching for her own good. This show? No way. Abbie says they will watch it together, but she's not coercing Jenny, and it is not only for Jenny's good -- Abbie needs her, too. And then they hold hands, like they did when they were girls. Beautiful!

Edited November 18, 2014 by tpel

[phoenics]

Yeah, while I hate the fact that Headless has become Abraham the witless fool, I like it that Henry is aware of this fact. Abraham thinks that Katrina has come over to the dark side? Henry's not buying it. He's got daddy issues and mommy issues, but he's not that dumb.

 

I don't think that a character (who has already been established as somewhat passive) not taking immediate action proves that she fell for the ruse. But I absolutely love the term 'demon psoriasis' :-)

 

My favorite scene of the episode was when Abby and Jenny are about to watch the video of their mother. Jenny says she can't do it. In any other show, the hero would either benevolently excuse the sidekick, or would brow-beat her into watching for her own good. This show? No way. Abbie says they will watch it together, but she's not coercing Jenny, and it is not only for Jenny's good -- Abbie needs her, too. And then they hold hands, like they did when they were girls. Beautiful!

 

We, as fans, can go back and forth about who has suffered more, the Cranes or the Mills. But I don't think it is in Abbie's character to see things that way.

 

Check the media thread - I think a recent interview by Nicole Beharie might suggest that Abbie's discontent is far from over on that score.

[fantique]

I just realised something while listening to the sleepycast for this episode... Damian Kindler, this episode's writer has written 2 episodes (pied piper and this one) based around a mother having to make tough choices for her kids. The podcast is good. Putting it in the media thread. 

 

ETA: @tpel, I must say, re-watching the scene between Jenry and Katrina, she is super hesitant about touching the child. So I do think she knew and wanted to keep her distance. I just wish they had edited that mirror scene differently though or an explanation of why she decided then to start the potion. It threw me off. 

Edited November 18, 2014 by fantique

[Haleth]

Mills Family Drama > Crane Family Drama. Loved the sisters working together but I would have preferred Ichabod over Hawley working with them as long as they would have taken the lead. The show has so much more heart when the focus is on Abbie rather than Katrina.

Good point about Irving's escape being a little suspicious.

If Henry is a horseman why isn't he ever on a horse? ;)

Edited November 18, 2014 by Haleth

[phoenics]

I just realised something while listening to the sleepycast for this episode... Damian Kindler, this episode's writer has written 2 episodes (pied piper and this one) based around a mother having to make tough choices for her kids. The podcast is good. Putting it in the media thread. 

 

ETA: @tpel, I must say, re-watching the scene between Jenry and Katrina, she is super hesitant about touching the child. So I do think she knew and wanted to keep her distance. I just wish they had edited that mirror scene differently though or an explanation of why she decided then to start the potion. It threw me off. 

 

I think if they had shown her mixing the potion BEFORE she got demon psoriasis that would have served the character better.  That it wasn't shown that way leaves it up to interpretation that she fell for the okeydoke.

 

I also think that she might have known it was a demon baby but maybe she thought she could separate the demon from the baby and keep the baby?  She's got unresolved maternal issues all over her - and maybe that's a clue as to how Jeremy might be saved from Henry.  But I'm not interested in this unless Jeremy goes on to a better place (dies) as well as Katrina herself.

[Timetoread]

Okay so I may have cried at the end with Abbie and Jenny.

 

That is all for now.

 

Projection is a bad thing.  I am now motherless and both these actresses sold to the hilt the fear, pain, joy, and sorrow of what I imagine it would be to see your mom as a ghost.  The complexity of feelings that they showed was astounding.  I was in tears from the moment Abbie finally saw their mother until the credits rolled.  When Abbie said "She fought for me!" With that mix of pride, surprise, and longing.  When Jenny said "You saved us!"  followed up by "Please don't go!"  I was done, just done.

 

The only thing that cut the tears was the humor.  I laughed for about 5 minutes at that ugly little demon troll sucking on Katrina's shoulder!  This will go down as my favorite Katrina episode. LMAO!!! 

Edited November 18, 2014 by Timetoread

[Helena Dax]

Ichabod has lost a son too. Even if  he could have a nice relationship with Henry from now on, (and I can't see that happening), he'd still  have lost more than fifty years of his son's life.  And all he has right now is a middle-aged son he barely knows turned into an evil supernatural creature and working for the the demon who wants to start an apocalypse. Hardly "you lucky bastard" material.  

 

I think Ichabod's making a mistake, but I don't see that as something wrong. The  heroes must face obstacles and sometimes, some of these obstacles come from  themselves. I totally believe he'll realize he's making that mistake and will try to do the right thing. 

 

Loved to see Jenny again. And she can make magic? Awesome! I  agree that it might be a sign that Katrina might die soon. So, double awesome. I don't hate Katrina, but she's pretty useless, she's in the middle of my ship and I prefer losing her than losing Jenny, Hawley  or Irving. I'm  not going to miss her.

 

Maybe it's  because I recognized the actress,  but the moment I saw that nurse I was sure she was the murderer. I never thought she was a ghost,  though. Nice twist.

 

Poor Ichabod was crankier than  usual, lol. Loved his face when he had  to hold  hands with Hawley XD

[RiddleyWalker]

The only thing that cut the tears was the humor.  I laughed for about 5 minutes at that ugly little demon troll sucking on Katrina's shoulder!  This will go down as my favorite Katrina episode. LMAO!!! 

Oh, man! I laughed at that as well! That whole bit was awesome campy-creepy! They're definitely going pretty campy with Katrina...

[cynic]

For all the padding that has happened this season, this ep was super crammed. If they had parceled out some of the "Mamma Mills was crazy" stuff - maybe put the Jenny in the car with the exhaust scene in an earlier episode - it would have been much more powerful to see in this ep that it was actually a demonic attack. Instead it had to be brought up and then reversed in the span of about twenty minutes. I feel like the Mills family story deserved more room in the show than a few mentions and then one very crammed episode....

ITA. The story and the characters were done a major disservice by sidelining them all season and then trying to fit all their development in one single episode. I think it's telling that this episode was touted in several places as "Abbie-centric" and "Abbie's big episode" as if she was Zander and this was the Zeppo instead of Abbie being the female lead!

I would have vastly preferred to cut a lot of the scenes in which Katrina and Henry went around in circles all season and given more time to seeing the sisters coming to grips with the past and strengthening their bond to build up to this. Also, since Frank was stuck in Tarrytown this entire time, it would have been nice to give him something actually to do by having him notice the strange occurrences and start investigating. He could have been the one to tip off Abbie that people were dying in supernatural ways. It would have also made Frank's story both more connected to the others and more urgent since he would have been in danger.

Well, hopefully this episode is only the start of everyone being back together and working as a team. If the show treats this as a bone and reverts to being ALL ABOUT THE CRANES, I'm going to be so upset.

Edited November 18, 2014 by cynic

[ChelseaNH]

They were willing to banish her and not even try to redeem her when they thought she was killing the patients.

 

Okay.  "Sacrifice" isn't the verb I'd pick for that situation, and a dead person is generally considered beyond the possibility of redemption, but I see the contrast you're making.

 

I must have missed where Ichabod's family died due to any of this

 

What you missed was that this was raised as a point in who lost what, not why they lost it.  I wonder how many people, given the choice, would prefer to be in Abbie's situation rather than Ichabod's.

[phoenics]

Ichabod has lost a son too. Even if  he could have a nice relationship with Henry from now on, (and I can't see that happening), he'd still  have lost more than fifty years of his son's life.  And all he has right now is a middle-aged son he barely knows turned into an evil supernatural creature and working for the the demon who wants to start an apocalypse. Hardly "you lucky bastard" material.

I feel like such a pest for belaboring this point - but Ichabod could have very well died in the war just as a soldier. The only reason Ichabod was killed when he was was due to his relationship with Katrina and that being the betrayal that drove Abraham to become the Horseman of War. In fact, in the espy where The Witnesses captured Headless, he tells Ichabod that he specifically CAME for Ichabod on the battlefield to END HIM.

Because Ichabod/Katrina betrayed him. So - the fact that Ichabod missed out on Henry's life (also due to Katrina's duplicity), can be laid at his feet.

That's been part of my point this whole time. Not one thing that Abbie has endured can be laid at her feet (except lying as a child - but she was a child). Mama Mills didn't do anything to deserve getting tormented. Neither did Irving. Neither did Joe Corbin. Or Corbin. The only one I can point to is Andy - but at least he tried to break free.

Henry?

Ichabod/Katrina's woes all seem connected to really poor decisions they've made in the past. Abbie/Jenny/Corbin/Irving/Joe/Mama Mills/Grace Mills were nailed due to the Apocalypse.

I don't understand how anyone can try to make those things even. The Mills' side has clearly gotten the shaft. Especially when you think that the Cranes still have a chance to "have their cake and eat it to" (regardless of who they put in danger to get it).

It doesn't mean that it's not "hard" for the Cranes - but sheesh - at least they still have a chance. Corbin/Mama/Grace are all dead and Joe Corbin would have been if it weren't for The Witnesses.

And Irving might be screwed too - meanwhile, The Cranes are still trying to "save their son" at everyone else's expense.

Maybe we will have to just agree to disagree - but it still bothers me, because ... mathematics. The Mills' casualties vastly outnumber the Crane ones - and it's simply a fact that the Mills' side (with the exception of Andy) did nothing to cause their own pain. They were targeted by the forces of evil.

Ichabod/Katrina's pain appears to be partly of their own making.

I just cannot sympathize with them equally with Abbie's side. And mathematically I don't see how anyone else can either.

But I'm willing to just drop it from my side - I think I've laid my thoughts out pretty clear by this point, lol and I feel like a pest for repeating myself.

I think Ichabod's making a mistake, but I don't see that as something wrong. The  heroes must face obstacles and sometimes, some of these obstacles come from  themselves. I totally believe he'll realize he's making that mistake and will try to do the right thing.

Maybe - but redrawing that map was a mistake and I've never really felt like he paid for that. Abbie did. Same thing this season. It won't help if he just "realizes his mistake" if he doesn't pay some extremely high stake for it. If only folks from Abbie's side (Irving) pay for this, then that's not helping and it will make me HATE Ichabod. Ichabod needs to be humbled and brought low - the only way for that to happen is to kill Katrina and get him to stop putting everyone in danger for his (and his wife's) selfishness - for them putting themselves over his duty as a Witness. At this point I cannot accept anything less.

 

Loved to see Jenny again. And she can make magic? Awesome! I  agree that it might be a sign that Katrina might die soon. So, double awesome. I don't hate Katrina, but she's pretty useless, she's in the middle of my ship and I prefer losing her than losing Jenny, Hawley  or Irving. I'm  not going to miss her.

 

Maybe it's  because I recognized the actress,  but the moment I saw that nurse I was sure she was the murderer. I never thought she was a ghost,  though. Nice twist.

 

Poor Ichabod was crankier than  usual, lol. Loved his face when he had  to hold  hands with Hawley XD

The nurse was a ghost-demon, right? That part confused me a little.... especially when her eyes turned black... ?

Okay.  "Sacrifice" isn't the verb I'd pick for that situation, and a dead person is generally considered beyond the possibility of redemption, but I see the contrast you're making.

 

 

 

 

What you missed was that this was raised as a point in who lost what, not why they lost it.  I wonder how many people, given the choice, would prefer to be in Abbie's situation rather than Ichabod's.

I guess it felt like you were only taking one point of my post and not the entire context of what I was saying. Abbie also lost her father too (he left or something), but I didn't include him because it didn't fit with my point.

I think many would choose Ichabod - only because he still has a chance to regain his family - which was part of my point. Abbie's situation is more final - and even then she still has her eyes on the prize... Ichabod just seems selfish to me.

[ChelseaNH]

Ichabod has a chance to regain the family he created, but not the family which created him.  Of the family which created her, Abbie lost her parents, but not her sister, and she still has the opportunity to create a family of her own.

[phoenics]

Ichabod has a chance to regain the family he created, but not the family which created him.  Of the family which created her, Abbie lost her parents, but not her sister, and she still has the opportunity to create a family of her own.

I do agree that she has a chance to create her own family - if she can get past her tendency to shut everyone out... I think she does that to protect herself and due to what happened to her mother - and how her mother taught her to trust no one (because demons). It looks like she really internalized that, whilst Jenny less so... hence why Abbie was prone to lie about seeing Moloch and Jenny wasn't. For Abbie - that was how you survive... Jenny hadn't internalized it back then, though she seems far more guarded now... though not nearly as guarded as Abbie.

Nick doesn't have a chance with Abbie, lol. She's going to be way too closed off.

[emma675]

On a different topic, does Hawley know about Ichabod being over 200 years old? I can't remember if he's been clued into that fact or not.

[HalcyonDays]

On a different topic, does Hawley know about Ichabod being over 200 years old? I can't remember if he's been clued into that fact or not.

 

As far as I know, Hawley doesn't know that Ichabod is really 200+ Revolutionary soldier. No one told him. I would expect that Hawley just sees Ichabod as a quirky strange British guy. But you never know with this show - they tend to not tell you anything that you should know.

 

I am dying to see what his reaction is going to be, if Hawley finds out!!

[caprice]

On re-watch, I'm not surprised at how much I enjoyed this episode. Damian Kindler, IMO, writes strong women beautifully. Yes, I saw a few episodes of Sanctuary, why do you ask? There was subtle tension between Abbie and Jenny early on and they dealt. I thought the girls playing the young sisters were wonderful and did a credible job of showing where that tension came from.

At the same time, both sets of actresses were able to consistently portray the underlying love and support the sisters share. Even with the differences in relationship they had with their mother, there was strength and solidarity in the Mills family. Lori's journey, for me, was powerful and the reveal that she had been watching over Jenny during her hospitalization made my allergies act up.

A sick Crane made me giggle and want to find my nurse costume.

I'm a little nervous about Irving being on the run, but they can't do much with it until after the hiatus, anyway. I can wait.

Next week is going to be very interesting....

[Actionmage]

I just hope they tie up his[irving's] soul storyline properly though.

 

By which you mean showing off those guns of Mr. Jones, right? *g* The Captain can look good freeing his soul, correct?

 

he'd still  have lost more than fifty years of his son's life.

 

To be picayune, Ichabod has missed out on all but the last year or so of his son's life--by not knowing he was a father at all. Also, John Noble is closer to 70 than 50, which is also how I read Henry in-show.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Actionmage

[BooksRule]

Burnt Toast Demon Baby

 

This made me laugh.

 

I came here to see if anyone else noticed this, but I don't see that anyone else mentioned it, but when the camera panned down to show the bottom of the car as the gang was driving away, it looked to me like there was someone (something?) clinging to the underside of the car.  It looked like some type of lump.  Just me?  Okay.

Edited November 19, 2014 by BooksRule

[DeLurker]

No, I noticed the bottom of the car too. Forgot all about it in my joy over Irving out of lockdown. Hmmmm....who could it be now?

[fantique]

Ichabod has a chance to regain the family he created, but not the family which created him.  Of the family which created her, Abbie lost her parents, but not her sister, and she still has the opportunity to create a family of her own.

I am so sorry to re-hash this again and this will be my last post about this because we obviously don't see things the same way. ETA: I put my answer wrt losses of the Mills and Cranes in spoiler tags so that if anyone doesn't want to read it they don't have a huge chunk of space they find annoying.

First of all, I want to say that I have always considered Crane's status as an outsider and the pain he must carry to be cut off from the world he was born in; I was one of the few people that posited that's why he's always going on about the good ole times even though it really wasn't perfect at all, especially wrt gender, racial and socio-economical equalities. He misses those times because to him, the loss is fresh. BUT I simply can not understand how one can equate a 30 something year old losing his greying parents after he's married, to a 7 year old losing her mother to insanity and then suicide after enduring maybe years of a stressful environment stemming from said mother's shattered mental state. Surely you can concede at least that one loss is way more damaging than the other as a personal impact.

 

PS: Crane can create a new family as well. Yes he will have lost time with Jeremy but he and Katrina can have other children. The problem is at the rate the Cranes are going about fighting this apocalypse, Abbie might not make it to the point where she can create a family. Again, I appreciate Crane's losses but which one is closer to a happy ending here?

Now, I don't count Irving nor Grace Dixon as part of the people in the Mills' personal losses. But even without counting them, everyone that mattered to Abbie has been either hurt or taken from her as a consequence of being part of the apocalypse which was the beginning of this conversation anyway. She lost both her parents, Sheriff Corbin, Joe Corbin, Andy, Luke (my guess is something happened to him during "Vessel") and Jenny was possessed which made her lock herself away.

 

People were just noticing that the Mills personally lost a lot in this fight against evil already. Ichabod's brethren went on to win the war against the British, his commanding officer became the first president in United States of America. Soldiers died in the war but that's not personal to the Cranes. Personally, Ichabod lost Katrina, Abraham as a friend, Jeremy and his parents (whom he was probably never going to see again as he was fighting for the Americans). And out of the personal losses they both experienced which ones can come back? Katrina is here. Granted he will have missed his childhood, but if Jeremy turns good he will have his son back. Abraham is still lost to him but 2 out of 3 ain't bad. Ichabod got a life extension, he was going to die on that battlefield anyway. He wasn't sent to the future because of the apocalypse. Katrina saved him (and in doing so, also maybe the Horseman) against caution. Again, not saying that Ichabod's life is the dream, but the Mills side suffered more personal losses that are final and did not stem from their choices.

I am sorry to everyone who is sick of this back and forth, that's the last of it for me. I just wanted to get that out there.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Writing this informed me about their attitude in the fight though. Abbie has already lost so much that if they don't win against moloch, it would have all been for nothing. All this pain and suffering will have been for absolutely nothing. Crane is no longer fighting for the world, he's fighting for his family and the problem is: his family is also the enemy. I am not sure I hate that the Cranes want to save Jenry so much as that I hate that they are self-righteous about it. I'd rather Ichabod didn't pretend that the best way to abort the apocalypse is to convert Jenry. I'd rather he say, "I am sorry Miss Mills, I just can't fight my son". Then I want Abbie to lay it down for him; "Crane, are you telling me you'd rather let the world burn than to stop your son?" The problem here is, as others have said before, parents of serial killers may be heartbroken, especially when their child's acts are a direct effect of a mental illness, but that doesn't mean they should try to keep him from being caught by the police. 

 

They are in a narrative bind here because if the Cranes choose their son over the world then they're losing the audience's favour but they can't just say "oh well we tried" after being so stubborn about it for so long. Or they can prove the Cranes right against all odds but then how is it fair to let Jeremy roam around freely after all the horrible stuff he's done? How horrible is that for their friends Jenny and Irving who were direct targets of Jenry's machinations? Unless they can split Jeremy (meaning he would be a different actor) from Henry (JN) because a Horseman is an entity that controls a host and Jeremy is sealed away while War is feeding on his doubt and resentment towards the Cranes. Or he turns good and then dies in his parents arms. 

Another possibility is that after realising that their mother fought for them beyond the end, Abbie might understand the Cranes' stance more since she brought up her mother when talking with Katrina. 

Edited November 19, 2014 by fantique

[RiddleyWalker]

The "Jenry" problem may be eliminated without the Crane's input (or despite it) ….  ;)

[vanarnd1]

This was a really good intense, emotional episode that felt like Season 1 Sleepy Hollow. It was darker than I expected though so I think it was good that there was closure for the Mill sisters with all they were shown to have gone through.

 

Lyndie was great as well, but Nicole for me once again stood out with her performance. The range she displayed in this episode alone cannot be understated. She conveyed so many different emotions with just her facial expressions, and even as Abbie was trying to be strong for Jenny and keep them on course to get answers, you could see the pain and hurt she felt.  And near the end with the demon she went back and forth between fear, anger and desperation to not suffer the same fate as her mother it really allowed me as a viewer to feel for the character of Abbie. Kudos to her all the way around.

 

Ichabod was up and down for me in this episode. He was sympathetic in regards to the case, but was so quick to defend Katrina by snapping at Abbie it just made for a bad look IMO. Not to mention Katrina ended up not doing anything and now the rapidly aging Moloch is just going to cause more problems for everyone else anyway. I feel bad for Tom Mison for the way Ichabod has been written this season. Even Hawley ends up looking better than him by just staying out of the way.

 

I am glad that Irving broke out of Tarry town, even though it happened kind of quickly. It is better to have him physically together with the rest of the group then trying to work him in to the story separately.

 

All in all I liked this episode, and hope that the mid-season finale builds off of it instead of going backwards.

[fantique]

The "Jenry" problem may be eliminated without the Crane's input (or despite it) ….  ;)

Yeah, I also thought about Abbie killing him but that would too damaging to the Bond and I don't see how they could deal with it without brushing it under the carpet like the map thing, which I still don't think was as bad as some other people do but there should have been more tension. It would turn into Abbie vs Crane and I think they would be scared to have an all out confrontation between the witnesses when it's a partnership most like. It could also be a third party or moloch deciding that he's a liability but that's just so much less dramatic and these writers like drama.

[HalcyonDays]

Yeah, I also thought about Abbie killing him but that would too damaging to the Bond and I don't see how they could deal with it without brushing it under the carpet like the map thing, which I still don't think was as bad as some other people do but there should have been more tension. It would turn into Abbie vs Crane and I think they would be scared to have an all out confrontation between the witnesses when it's a partnership most like. It could also be a third party or moloch deciding that he's a liability but that's just so much less dramatic and these writers like drama.

 

Well, this show certainly has had no problem with brushing under the carpet all of the shady stuff that Katrina has done. Apparently she can do no wrong.

 

You guys have to stop writing Jenry - I keep reading JENNY every time and have to do a double-take!

 

But yes, Abbie taking out Henry would be way to damaging to the bond. I don't see it anyway, because the Witnesses have to be united to do anything significant against Moloch and the Horsemen. The season 1 finale says this. Abbie had to be left in Purgatory, to break up the Witnesses, therefore Henry could break the seal and become War. The two of them have to work together to take out Henry.

 

Honestly, I want Ichabod to be the one to deal the final blow. He needs to be the one to take out his son.

[RiddleyWalker]

Yeah, I also thought about Abbie killing him but that would too damaging to the Bond and I don't see how they could deal with it without brushing it under the carpet like the map thing, which I still don't think was as bad as some other people do but there should have been more tension. It would turn into Abbie vs Crane and I think they would be scared to have an all out confrontation between the witnesses when it's a partnership most like. It could also be a third party or moloch deciding that he's a liability but that's just so much less dramatic and these writers like drama.

Well, as you might know, I'm thinking that Irving will (or at least will want to) kill Jenry in order to reclaim his soul--but more importantly, to eliminate a very, VERY evil entity that threatens the whole world.

 

That being said, it seems a bit too obvious, so I think there will be a twist…"infected Katrina" begging to be killed etc. I really do think Irving is going to KILL someone but I don't think we'll know until the end of episode 11. I can't think of any other characters that provide an adequate motivation for Irving (Ichabod? No, No, Sorry, Sorry!) 

[40Love]

HELLO? Why on earth would Henry have a "normal" looking baby? Something has to be up with it. At this point she's just useless to me. I'm fine with Hawley taking her place on team witness.

Plus, if Henry is egging you on... he's probably got a really messed up reason for it. Come on Katrina. ..you know he's evil. Do the exact opposite of anything Henry suggests!

[starchild215]

Aunjanue Ellis! Thank You! I couldn't remember the actress' name. I hope they find a way to bring her back.

 

As any woman will tell you all men are whiny babies when they're sick. Nice work by Mison.

 

Great episode leading into the winter break. I was shocked to see Irving busted out during all the havoc at the Psych Hospital.

 

And yeah, I got something in my eyes at the end too.

[lisaloopner]

So, Ghost Nurse drugging unsuspecting, vulnerable sick people is bad, but Hawley drugging unsuspecting, vulnerable sick people is just lulz? And he and Crane hate each other again after all that male bonding they crammed down our throats last week?

 

The sooner they write off that waste of space, the better. He's doing absolutely nothing on the show that wasn't being done better by other characters last season. Why they felt they had to bring him on in the first place is a mystery with such a great cast already in place.

[ChelseaNH]

Personally, Ichabod lost Katrina, Abraham as a friend, Jeremy and his parents (whom he was probably never going to see again as he was fighting for the Americans).

 

I seriously doubt that Ichabod's personal life was constrained to just five people.

[starchild215]

Lori says there's a journal passed down to her from the ancestors. She tells Jenny to go find it. So Jenny and Hawley go to find it. Hawley finds the box, of course, goes right to it. Jenny looks for the spell; Hawley tells Jenny how to find the spell in the book and then she immediately finds it, once he's told her to look for an index (of course, Jenny, who searched the world for supernatural artifacts, needs Hawley to tell her how to read the damned book. )

Jenny reads the spell out. It doesn't work. Not until Hawley tells her 'do it again'. Every step of the way, he is inserted--Jenny needs him to find the book, figure out the book, even to tell her how to cast the spell. Why?

 

That whole scene was interesting. Jenny knows Hawley. They're both scavenger hunters. Giving Jenny the benefit of the doubt I think she was too frazzled to do a really good search. Still Hawley going right to the box did make me raise an eyebrow. I think there was a phrase that Jenny repeated three times or something before the spell worked. She was also the only one who could read it since she was a blood descendant of Grace. 

 

Hawley is an enigma though. He has done work indirectly and unknowingly for Henry already. I have to believe that spellbook is important and I'm uneasy with him knowing it's power let alone it's existence. I'm not surprised Ichabod could see Lori. I was surprised Hawley could.

[fantique]

I seriously doubt that Ichabod's personal life was constrained to just five people.

I said everything I have to say on the subject and I'm aware we are not going to agree here. I just find it really funny that out of everything I said that's what you decide to nitpick on. But hey, maybe we are just not understanding each other because my point doesn't hinge on numbers. 

[Indi]

The way I see it, Ichy never lost a son. He never had him, he "died" without knowing him and hadn't Abbie told him about it, he'd still have no son. When he met Henry, Ichy didn't feel any "mystic" bond to him. There is nothing between them but shared genes. He doesn't know him as anything else than a sin eater and the Horseman of War, who has been causing the deaths of many people and who will continue to do as much harm as possible.

 

So yes, I agree with the people, who see a fundamental difference between Abbie's losses and Ichy's.

 

At some point, I might have had some sympathy for Ichy having to live in the present and not with his beloved slave-owning Founding Fathers, but you know what? He died in the battlefield. That was his natural end. The fact that he's living a second life, even if it's in another era, with also his wife present, with more chances to form a family with her, tells me he has lost nothing, quite the opposite. He has won an entire new life.

 

So yeah, he gets no points from me for being willing to sacrifice others, so that he can enjoy reality TV with his useless wife or defend his right to try to redeem his evil son, while people keep dying around him.

 

What his behavior since forever tells me is that he's fails as a Witness. FailWitness and StruggleWitch, what a wonderful couple!

[phoenics]

So, Ghost Nurse drugging unsuspecting, vulnerable sick people is bad, but Hawley drugging unsuspecting, vulnerable sick people is just lulz? And he and Crane hate each other again after all that male bonding they crammed down our throats last week?

Um - well one was to get the sick person to kill him/herself. The other was to lure a sick man to get some sleep. It's no different than when my grandma gave me a hot toddy when I was sick as a child. So, yeah - it was funny to me... Hilarious actually.

I think Hawley and Crane will go back and forth a while - and I think last week's male bonding kinda ended for Crane the moment he realized Abbie might be into Hawley.

 

The sooner they write off that waste of space, the better. He's doing absolutely nothing on the show that wasn't being done better by other characters last season. Why they felt they had to bring him on in the first place is a mystery with such a great cast already in place.

I do agree to a point - the thing I like about Hawley is that IF they keep Irving/Jenny in the picture and not sidelined then Hawley kinda just fades to the background in most cases. I liked him in this episode. I prefer him to Katrina - so if the writers think they have to off someone, I'd rather it be her and not Hawley.

I said everything I have to say on the subject and I'm aware we are not going to agree here. I just find it really funny that out of everything I said that's what you decide to nitpick on. But hey, maybe we are just not understanding each other because my point doesn't hinge on numbers.

I don't think it's because your point didn't hinge on numbers (mine did and I got the same response). We clearly won't be seeing eye to eye on this with some viewers. Even using hard numbers to prove the point and illustrating the difference between loss you had no choice in vs. loss you partially created for yourself (as you and I both did).

Edited November 19, 2014 by phoenics

[Raja]

What the hell was the purpose of sidelining Crane for the entire episode? Hawley drugs him and goes in his place? Hawley's standing in for Crane now, too? Shall we start calling this show "Sleepy Hawley"?

 

It seemed to be the lets focus on the Black folks to satisfy the critics episode.

[HalcyonDays]

I seriously doubt that Ichabod's personal life was constrained to just five people.

 

Ichabod tells you exactly how many friends he has. From "The Indespensible Man" And how is it you have 500 friends? I had only seven close companions. Four of them died, and those were good odds."

 

The way I see it, Ichy never lost a son. He never had him, he "died" without knowing him and hadn't Abbie told him about it, he'd still have no son. When he met Henry, Ichy didn't feel any "mystic" bond to him. There is nothing between them but shared genes. He doesn't know him as anything else than a sin eater and the Horseman of War, who has been causing the deaths of many people and who will continue to do as much harm as possible.

 

So yes, I agree with the people, who see a fundamental difference between Abbie's losses and Ichy's.

 

Even Abbie says is straight out. Family is more than just blood, which is why I struggle so much with this redemption arc. Dude, you didn't KNOW your son. You love the concept, but that's nothing to sacrifice the world on. Blood does not equal family (in my view).

 

It seemed to be the lets focus on the Black folks to satisfy the critics episode.

 

Episodes are taped long in advance. They had this episode completed LONG before the whole Deliverance mess and everything that came after it. The show didn't cobble together "Mama" as a last minute salve. That episode was just a coincidence. The interviews and advertising with Beharie and Greenwood, however, was damage control.

 

The show is starting filming on episode 15 now, so any rewrites or changes in direction will be minor. They are too far into it to make major changes to the over plot arc, but they will make minor changes.

[lisaloopner]

Um - well one was to get the sick person to kill him/herself. The other was to lure a sick man to get some sleep. It's no different than when my grandma gave me a hot toddy when I was sick as a child.

 

 

Except Ichabod ISN'T a child, so it's actually COMPLETELY different from that.

 

I think Hawley and Crane will go back and forth a while - and I think last week's male bonding kinda ended for Crane the moment he realized Abbie might be into Hawley.

 

 

I guess we were watching completely different shows last week, because on my set, that's when Crane started softening toward him.

Edited November 19, 2014 by lisaloopner