S03.E10: Amends

[Sarah D. Bunting]

Recently inducted into Extra Hot Great's Nonac, "Amends" is not well liked among fans of the show. John and I fulminated about it for a while here.

[KittenPokerCheater]

ObNoxon is hilarious.  And yes, I thought the whole First Evil thing was lame, and when it came back in season seven…Amends is an episode I have conveniently forgotten.  Especially when it started to snow and it blocked out the sun and saved Angel's life.  

Spot on commentary.

[inkworks]

I was eleven when I first watched this episode. I rewatched the Buffy/Angel scene too many times to count. I have their whole exchanged memorised to this day. I'm pretty embarrassed about that to be honest!

[romantic idiot]

A miracle saved Angel's life. What's not to like?

[Dianthus]

I was into Buffy/Angel while it was still a thing. Looking back on it now, though...It completely undercuts Buffy's speech to Angel at the end of Lovers Walk, and I thought that was a pretty important speech for her, in light of Spike's observations.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Not for nothing, but I think anyone who would take Spike's comments about *anyone's* relationship seriously (*cough* Riley! *cough*) probably needs to get their head checked. No matter how ridiculously over-dramatic Buffy and Angel were as a couple, or how convenient the Miracle Snow was, I preferred the overblown "We want to, but we can't!" angst of Bangel to the squalidness of Spuffy.

[Valny]

Recently inducted into Extra Hot Great's Nonac, "Amends" is not well liked among fans of the show.

 

  Is it going to be on the EHG podcast?

[Dianthus]

Cobalt Stargazer: In keeping with the internal made external theme, I've long thought that the physical scar Buffy bore after Angel bit her represented the emotional scars their relationship left her. Plus, just like with Dru, Spike came along after to clean up the mess. I actually prefer the gritty realness of Spuffy to the idealized but still harmful relationship of Bangel.

Spike knows that Buffy and Angel are kidding themselves, thinking they can maintain a safe distance from one another.

Riley also knows that Buffy doesn't really love him. He says as much to Xander.

[Lisin]

  Is it going to be on the EHG podcast?

It already was, here's the link.

[Jazzy24]

Not for nothing, but I think anyone who would take Spike's comments about *anyone's* relationship seriously (*cough* Riley! *cough*) probably needs to get their head checked. No matter how ridiculously over-dramatic Buffy and Angel were as a couple, or how convenient the Miracle Snow was, I preferred the overblown "We want to, but we can't!" angst of Bangel to the squalidness of Spuffy.

Word, Spike's idea of love were of torture and violence(see how he handled Dru and he's and Buffy's violent disgusting relationship)he had no idea of Buffy and Angel's love.

[buffyjunkie]

 

Not for nothing, but I think anyone who would take Spike's comments about *anyone's* relationship seriously (*cough* Riley! *cough*) probably needs to get their head checked.

Unfortunately for me Cobalt Stargazer, I know at least two people who are completely delusional about their own life/actions but are spot on in regard to observations about others.  So I can't immediately reject Spike's observations and when I look at what we've been shown between Buffy and Angel, well I agree.  Maybe when Buffy's really old she and Angel could be "just friends" but right now, not so much.  Then again, I also agree with Joyce that Angel had a responsibility to do the more mature thing and terminate a relationship that in its present state was not healthy for Buffy.  Again everyone's milage varies on this and I respect that.

 

 

he had no idea of Buffy and Angel's love

Maybe not but he could smell lust readily enough.  And they had that too.

Edited June 10, 2014 by buffyjunkie

[Dianthus]

It's no coincidence in I Only Have Eyes For You that Buffy is James and Angel the older teacher (whose name I've forgotten). That was an unhealthy relationship and so is Bangel. It's just prettier to look at than Spuffy.  

Spuffy was dysfunctional, no question. Spike is Buffy's enabler, just as he was for Dru. OTOH, no one else could take the sort of punishment she could dish out. Whedon has said it was an examination of misogyny. He just flipped the gender roles. 

[Jazzy24]

It's no coincidence in I Only Have Eyes For You that Buffy is James and Angel the older teacher (whose name I've forgotten). That was an unhealthy relationship and so is Bangel. It's just prettier to look at than Spuffy.

How was Buffy/Angel unheathly?

Edited June 13, 2014 by Jazzy24

[buffyjunkie]

 

How was Buffy/Angel unheathly?

I'm not sure who you are asking, but to me it is unhealthy in the sense that Buffy (as much as I hate this metaphor) is unbaked cookie dough.  She needs to have the opportunity to experience more of life.  It is akin to having a sixteen year old daughter dating a fifty year old man.  And yes, I know being a slayer ages one rapidly and she is or needs be more mature than her peers.  Nevertheless, I believe the writers were correct in showing a relationship that despite the two partners having a mutual attraction may not be right at that moment.   And that is what makes their relationship especially bittersweet - because they may never be given any other moments.  Also, for me, there is the unaswered question of very different personalities.  Sometimes that sort of thing works and sometimes it doesn't.  It is unanswered because we never get to see the "long haul" or how they interact as a couple after being together five, ten, fifteen years.  Lastly, there is the idea that I felt ran through the shows (BtVS and AtS) that relationships with vampires aren't meant to be healthy for humans.  Clearly this may be a peculiar opinion given the characters of Harmony, Spike, and Angel.  But on the whole, I felt the writers ultimately fall to that side as opposed to more recent popular portrayals. 

[Jazzy24]

^ I get where you are coming from. And I agree with Buffy needing more life experiences.

But I think Buffy and Angel had some healthy parts to their relationship more than any other relationship she's ever had IMO. She was very open with Angel more than anyone on BTVS. Angel encouraged Buffy to stay into the light he did everything to keep from taking her into the dark. Buffy was more emotionally close with her friends and did things like a normal girl, going to the Bronze, dances. Angel was one of the few people who never demanded or expected things from her.

Yeah Angel and Buffy could be unhealthy when he was Angelus and acting like a stalkerish abusive boyfriend, and her feeding herself to him to save him and their obsessive need to save each other.

But besides that Buffy and Angel were not all that unhealthy

[Joe Hellandback]

Amends

The Good; Pretty much all of it, the ending is too beautiful for words, Will and Oz getting back together and Will's attempt to seduce him are the highlights. I also really like Joyce hurriedly turning down Buffy's suggestion that they invite Giles for Christmas and you can't fail to be touched by Faith at the Summers' house for Christmas. Also some powerful Giles/Angel scenes. On a lighter note I love the depiction of Liam the 'drunken, whoring, layabout' who seems a pretty fun guy

The Bad; Irish accents not so great on Buffy. I'm still not that clear on the role of the First and what its' plan was?

Spoiler

Did it want to wreck WR&H's scheme for the apocalypse?

Best line; Buffy; "What are your Christmas plans?" Willow; "Being Jewish not much, not everyone worships Santa, remember?"

Character death; None but Jenny makes her second (and unfortunately final postdeath appearance except in flashback)

Women good/men bad; Angelus' behaviour towards the maid is just horrible beyond belief, not just in killing her but in the way he uses his position to shame her into silence

Kinky dinky; Flashbacks to the Buffy/Angel coitus. Love Will's seduction dress and she takes a page out of Ally McBeal's book with Barry White. Amazingly this is the second time Willow has offered her virginity to a boy and he's turned her down. To judge from her remarks Oz is not a virgin however. Great line from Joyce "Angel on top again?"

Calling Captain Subtext; Quite a lot of Jaith, it's obvious that a family Christmas is what Faith really wants despite her projected steel

Guantanamo Bay; Buffy and Xander threaten Willy the Snitch but don't beat him up for once

What the fanficcers thought; Plenty of adult stuff as normal ('Buffy the Slutty Santa Helper' has her as an S&M ponygirl in chains pulling Santa's sleigh) but largely this time of year brings out the slush (physically and metaphorically). My favourite is 'At Last', it has Buffy as a C19th noblewoman (much as we saw her in Halloween) who get's vamped by Darla on her way back home for Christmas. 200 years later she get's cursed by gypsies, restoring both soul and humanity. She tracks down her family's descendent's (Joyce, her husband Hank and their daughter Dawn) and turns up on their doorstep on Christmas morning, posing as Joyce's long lost niece. And they adopt her, forming her new family, finally allowing her to enjoy a normal human life once more and completing the journey she began centuries before.

Questions and observations; So, is the First the real deal? Lucifer, the Devil, Satan, The Evil One? Apparently Robia LaMorte had a hard time in this ep because she's become very Christian and didn't like playing what was essentially the Devil? But it's not exactly as if they're saying it's a good thing and gets defeated in the end. Buffy comments that Xander has a piece of Willow that Oz can't touch, the same is true of Willow and Xander with

Spoiler

Anya in season 5. Presumably Dawn enjoys Christmas with Faith at home.

 To judge by his flashbacks whilst Angel was Angelus he kills a father and his young children yet no one goes hysterical Gingerbread style.

The First says that Angel will drink Buffy and

Spoiler

he does at the end of the season.

 Once read a horrible fanfic where the ending gives Angel his moment of joy turning him into Angelus and having him torture Buffy. Thankfully there was a sequel where everything works out happily, his soul get's restored and he uses WR&H's healers to cure her.

So, God in the Buffyverse? What are we to think? I think the snowstorm is clearly the work of

Spoiler

the PTB. I know the rival theory is that it's WR&H saving him but it's pretty clear that they're unaware of his significance until near the end of the first season of Angel.

 Or it's a meteorological freak but who could buy that?

8/10 I think

[Halting Hex]

We already have an Amends topic; it's back on page 3.  Merge, please?

Other thoughts later.  But if you're holding your breath waiting for me to rhapsodize over "Am I a righteous man? Am I a thing worth saving?", well…don't.

(Joss says it's the best line he ever wrote. To quote Cordelia in Halloween, "And you went mental, when?")

[Joe Hellandback]

7 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

We already have an Amends topic; it's back on page 3.  Merge, please?

Other thoughts later.  But if you're holding your breath waiting for me to rhapsodize over "Am I a righteous man? Am I a thing worth saving?", well…don't.

(Joss says it's the best line he ever wrote. To quote Cordelia in Halloween, "And you went mental, when?")

Oops, I'll ask the mod to merge, I thought individual ep threads here stopped after s2?

Not really a Bangel fan, are we?

1 hour ago, nosleepforme said:

I like that line, but mostly because I think it plays really well into the theme of suicidal depression and the questions you ask yourself when suffering from it.

Absolutely and as we explore Angel's own identity in his own show it takes on greater significance 

[Halting Hex]

25 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

I thought individual ep threads here stopped after s2?

No, if you page on through, you'll see there are a couple more.  

26 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Not really a Bangel fan, are we?

I like the characters well enough, although I think the romance is better used to put Buffy to the test, as in S2, than as a source of "we can't!" angst, as here.  But it's mostly Joss's opinion of his writing skills that I'm agog at here.  I'd take one "Really, I thought you were a pro" or "Take all of that away, and what's left?" over dozens of this overblown hooey.

Although I do have a specific venom for "I know everything you did, because you did it to me."  Riiiiight, Buffy, breaking Jenny's neck was All.About.You.  Get over yourself, Slayer.

[Halting Hex]

3 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

Given that Angel watches her through the window and gets enjoyment out of her grief, when she gets the news of Jenny's death, it was about her just as much as it was about taking out the one person who was planning to give him his soul back.

Hmmm, I hadn't thought about Jenny as being a Theresa-style "I can get anyone you know" kill, given the defensive aspect, but I guess you can credit that as similar.  

But now I'm more interested in wondering if Buffy knows he was watching them get the news.  Wonder if that ever comes up in conversation?  I guess my more refined answer is that I can believe in S1-S2 Bangel, but not S3 and on; IMO the memories should be too much, regardless of whether Angel has That Pesky Soul back or not.

[Joe Hellandback]

19 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

No, if you page on through, you'll see there are a couple more.  

I like the characters well enough, although I think the romance is better used to put Buffy to the test, as in S2, than as a source of "we can't!" angst, as here.  But it's mostly Joss's opinion of his writing skills that I'm agog at here.  I'd take one "Really, I thought you were a pro" or "Take all of that away, and what's left?" over dozens of this overblown hooey.

Although I do have a specific venom for "I know everything you did, because you did it to me."  Riiiiight, Buffy, breaking Jenny's neck was All.About.You.  Get over yourself, Slayer.

But it was, this was Angelus' revenge on Buffy for making him feel human. 

15 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Hmmm, I hadn't thought about Jenny as being a Theresa-style "I can get anyone you know" kill, given the defensive aspect, but I guess you can credit that as similar.  

But now I'm more interested in wondering if Buffy knows he was watching them get the news.  Wonder if that ever comes up in conversation?  I guess my more refined answer is that I can believe in S1-S2 Bangel, but not S3 and on; IMO the memories should be too much, regardless of whether Angel has That Pesky Soul back or not.

No, I believe in Bangel but I think The Zeppo hints this is a doomed romance, there's simply nowhere left for it to go.  

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎21‎/‎03‎/‎2014 at 1:38 PM, Sarah D. Bunting said:

Recently inducted into Extra Hot Great's Nonac, "Amends" is not well liked among fans of the show. John and I fulminated about it for a while here.

I never got that, amongst Bangelers it reduces them to tears.

On ‎30‎/‎03‎/‎2014 at 3:07 PM, romantic idiot said:

A miracle saved Angel's life. What's not to like?

Exactly!

On ‎19‎/‎04‎/‎2014 at 4:44 AM, Dianthus said:

I was into Buffy/Angel while it was still a thing. Looking back on it now, though...It completely undercuts Buffy's speech to Angel at the end of Lovers Walk, and I thought that was a pretty important speech for her, in light of Spike's observations.

No, it wasn't so much about Buffy's relationship as Angel's whole existence.

 

On ‎07‎/‎06‎/‎2014 at 8:44 PM, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Not for nothing, but I think anyone who would take Spike's comments about *anyone's* relationship seriously (*cough* Riley! *cough*) probably needs to get their head checked. No matter how ridiculously over-dramatic Buffy and Angel were as a couple, or how convenient the Miracle Snow was, I preferred the overblown "We want to, but we can't!" angst of Bangel to the squalidness of Spuffy.

Eternally tease the audience then give them what they want?

On ‎08‎/‎06‎/‎2014 at 5:47 AM, Jazzy24 said:

Word, Spike's idea of love were of torture and violence(see how he handled Dru and he's and Buffy's violent disgusting relationship)he had no idea of Buffy and Angel's love.

But the Slayer draws power (and pleasure?) from pain?

On ‎15‎/‎06‎/‎2014 at 4:33 PM, buffyjunkie said:

I'm not sure who you are asking, but to me it is unhealthy in the sense that Buffy (as much as I hate this metaphor) is unbaked cookie dough.  She needs to have the opportunity to experience more of life.  It is akin to having a sixteen year old daughter dating a fifty year old man.  And yes, I know being a slayer ages one rapidly and she is or needs be more mature than her peers.  Nevertheless, I believe the writers were correct in showing a relationship that despite the two partners having a mutual attraction may not be right at that moment.   And that is what makes their relationship especially bittersweet - because they may never be given any other moments.  Also, for me, there is the unaswered question of very different personalities.  Sometimes that sort of thing works and sometimes it doesn't.  It is unanswered because we never get to see the "long haul" or how they interact as a couple after being together five, ten, fifteen years.  Lastly, there is the idea that I felt ran through the shows (BtVS and AtS) that relationships with vampires aren't meant to be healthy for humans.  Clearly this may be a peculiar opinion given the characters of Harmony, Spike, and Angel.  But on the whole, I felt the writers ultimately fall to that side as opposed to more recent popular portrayals. 

I agree they were sort of mutually dependent on one another and ultimately destructive, Buffy needed to break free and Angel needed to let her.

On ‎26‎/‎06‎/‎2014 at 6:12 AM, Jazzy24 said:

^ I get where you are coming from. And I agree with Buffy needing more life experiences.

But I think Buffy and Angel had some healthy parts to their relationship more than any other relationship she's ever had IMO. She was very open with Angel more than anyone on BTVS. Angel encouraged Buffy to stay into the light he did everything to keep from taking her into the dark. Buffy was more emotionally close with her friends and did things like a normal girl, going to the Bronze, dances. Angel was one of the few people who never demanded or expected things from her.

Yeah Angel and Buffy could be unhealthy when he was Angelus and acting like a stalkerish abusive boyfriend, and her feeding herself to him to save him and their obsessive need to save each other.

But besides that Buffy and Angel were not all that unhealthy

I think it was the other way around, Buffy gave Angel a taste of normality in his life 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

23 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

But it was, this was Angelus' revenge on Buffy for making him feel human.

In the scene where Angelus lures Buffy away from the library while Drusilla and her minions attack Willow and the others, where Kendra is killed, he tells her in so many words that she's easy to fool because she always thinks it's about her. That in that instance she wasn't the target but she had to be distracted from who was so Dru could complete her task. And it's a lesson that gets reinforced later when Faith poisons Angel to give Buffy something to focus on besides the Mayor's plans, which is a whole other mess. She did make him feel human and he was enraged because of it, but Buffy's self-focus, for lack of a better term for it, did often lead her to see herself as the center of everything.

[Halting Hex]

33 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

On 3/30/2014 at 7:07 AM, romantic idiot said:

A miracle saved Angel's life. What's not to like?

Exactly!

Given that Angel's a mass-murderer with lots of innocent blood on his hands, maybe TPTB could save their miracles for a worthier cause?  Just a thought.

(Also, the Miracle Snow™ is so stupid.  Are vampires roaming the streets of Chicago and the midwest whenever there's a snow storm?  Diffused light is not the absence of light, genius.)

[Joe Hellandback]

12 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

In the scene where Angelus lures Buffy away from the library while Drusilla and her minions attack Willow and the others, where Kendra is killed, he tells her in so many words that she's easy to fool because she always thinks it's about her. That in that instance she wasn't the target but she had to be distracted from who was so Dru could complete her task. And it's a lesson that gets reinforced later when Faith poisons Angel to give Buffy something to focus on besides the Mayor's plans, which is a whole other mess. She did make him feel human and he was enraged because of it, but Buffy's self-focus, for lack of a better term for it, did often lead her to see herself as the center of everything.

I agree that she's the centre of focus for him, she's his obsession as we see and perhaps vice versa. Then again she is The Chosen One. 

12 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Given that Angel's a mass-murderer with lots of innocent blood on his hands, maybe TPTB could save their miracles for a worthier cause?  Just a thought.

(Also, the Miracle Snow™ is so stupid.  Are vampires roaming the streets of Chicago and the midwest whenever there's a snow storm?  Diffused light is not the absence of light, genius.)

Ah but look at the champion he becomes, much like 

Spoiler

Anya, Faith and Spike they had to go through their evil phase to make them the warriors for good.

I took it that it was an extra special PTB snowstorm with those precise qualities. 

[Halting Hex]

On 7/13/2018 at 12:13 PM, Joe Hellandback said:

Ah but look at the champion he becomes, much like 

  Hide contents

Anya, Faith and Spike they had to go through their evil phase to make them the warriors for good.

This argument serves to reinforce your point of view.  However, it does nothing to change mine.  JMO.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎15‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 9:34 AM, Halting Hex said:

This argument serves to reinforce your point of view.  However, it does nothing to change mine.  JMO.

Didn't think it would. 

[Halting Hex]

On the subject of the episode's other couple, Oz really has to take Willow back, doesn't he?  And not just because I love Willow and others may love Wiz; he's decided to repeat an entire year of school just to be with her*, so what kind of a schmuck would he look like if he didn't end up with her, after all?  You do something like that, you have to be all the way in, as horrible as his present situation may be.

"As Willow goes, so goes my nation," as Oz himself said in Homecoming. Ironic that he said it right after she'd started sneaking Xander-smooches behind his back, but no less true despite that, IMO.

*-yes, never made explicit in the text, but Buffy was able to test out of junior year and become a senior, and she spent the summer on the run from a murder charge.  I'm pretty sure that "practically a genius" Oz could have snagged that G.E.D. and  moved on, if he'd wanted to do so.

[lembergwatcher]

2 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Oz really has to take Willow back, doesn't he?

No, he doesn't. But he took some stupid pills prescribed by Dr. Whedon. The wolfboy turned out to be equally powerless against that kind of medicine - just like every other character.

Did Willow really have to almost beg Ozzie to take her back? I mean, resuming the relationship solely because you "hurt" someone and feel guilty about it  (and therefore feel some sort of obligation to do so) - is this really a wise thing to do? Do we have to call such kind of "relationship" a healthy one? And was it really the best for Willow?

And I'm not buyin' the whole "But Willow loooooooooooooooved Oz soooooooo much" stuff or pointing fingers at Xander and his 100 calls to Cordelia. Or trying to persuade me Oz was so much better than Xander and some kind of God's gift to Willow. If Willow truly loved her werewolf, "the Fluke" would have never happened. As for Xander's attempts to make it up to Cordelia - I guess that could have been avoided (or fixed) if someone made it clear she wanted Xander more than a friend. Once again I still find it hard to see how Oz was so much "better"? Because of "cool hair" or guitar playing skills? I'm too old to fall for that crap.

Overall a big fat disappointment. And one more reason to choose season 1 over season 3. Among the things that made S.01 good was the sympathy for seemingly "uncool"/"unpopular" types, the outcasts in the school caste system. "There is nothing wrong or bad about looking "uncool" in the eyes of the Cordettes-type crowd, not fitting into "coolness" stereotypes cultivated by majority, or being a little bit nerdy or goofy" - that was the kind of message I liked.

Unfortunately everything has changed dramatically in the third season. Because choosing a "cool" and popular (don't try to persuade me otherwise) type, the guitarist in the friggin' band, almost every girl's dream over an unpopular, uncool and always ridiculed one was suuuuch a sign of character development, suuuch a huuuge step ahead, suuuch an achievement, and not a least bit corny, you know.  The cool types rule, the uncool are scum! Alright. I'll stop right here, 'cause I'm afraid I'll start writing profanities.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎04‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 10:18 AM, lembergwatcher said:

No, he doesn't. But he took some stupid pills prescribed by Dr. Whedon. The wolfboy turned out to be equally powerless against that kind of medicine - just like every other character.

Did Willow really have to almost beg Ozzie to take her back? I mean, resuming the relationship solely because you "hurt" someone and feel guilty about it  (and therefore feel some sort of obligation to do so) - is this really a wise thing to do? Do we have to call such kind of "relationship" a healthy one? And was it really the best for Willow?

And I'm not buyin' the whole "But Willow loooooooooooooooved Oz soooooooo much" stuff or pointing fingers at Xander and his 100 calls to Cordelia. Or trying to persuade me Oz was so much better than Xander and some kind of God's gift to Willow. If Willow truly loved her werewolf, "the Fluke" would have never happened. As for Xander's attempts to make it up to Cordelia - I guess that could have been avoided (or fixed) if someone made it clear she wanted Xander more than a friend. Once again I still find it hard to see how Oz was so much "better"? Because of "cool hair" or guitar playing skills? I'm too old to fall for that crap.

Overall a big fat disappointment. And one more reason to choose season 1 over season 3. Among the things that made S.01 good was the sympathy for seemingly "uncool"/"unpopular" types, the outcasts in the school caste system. "There is nothing wrong or bad about looking "uncool" in the eyes of the Cordettes-type crowd, not fitting into "coolness" stereotypes cultivated by majority, or being a little bit nerdy or goofy" - that was the kind of message I liked.

Unfortunately everything has changed dramatically in the third season. Because choosing a "cool" and popular (don't try to persuade me otherwise) type, the guitarist in the friggin' band, almost every girl's dream over an unpopular, uncool and always ridiculed one was suuuuch a sign of character development, suuuch a huuuge step ahead, suuuch an achievement, and not a least bit corny, you know.  The cool types rule, the uncool are scum! Alright. I'll stop right here, 'cause I'm afraid I'll start writing profanities.

Oz took Willow back because the Willster in irresistible. Surely that is obvious to all? 

[lembergwatcher]

Recently I almost forced myself to rewatch this episode after ignoring it in a very long while.

Here's my very short summary: Cordy goes on vacation. Willow gets her boyfriend back, Angel gets his girlfriend back and some sort of reason to continue his (un)living. Giles gets a kind of apology from his tormentor, Faith gets company to celebrate Christmas, Xander gets zilch. 

And there was a time Whedon could write episodes without abusing or putting particular characters down. Sad.  

[Halting Hex]

 Also, Joyce gets laid.  (She's in her dressing gown when we see her and Faith on the porch at the end.  I'm just saying…)

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎12‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 3:52 PM, lembergwatcher said:

Recently I almost forced myself to rewatch this episode after ignoring it in a very long while.

Here's my very short summary: Cordy goes on vacation. Willow gets her boyfriend back, Angel gets his girlfriend back and some sort of reason to continue his (un)living. Giles gets a kind of apology from his tormentor, Faith gets company to celebrate Christmas, Xander gets zilch. 

And there was a time Whedon could write episodes without abusing or putting particular characters down. Sad.  

Xander's not down, he doesn't have any tangible gain in this ep but he gets to have a white Christmas in California which is a rarity.  

On ‎12‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 7:54 PM, Halting Hex said:

 Also, Joyce gets laid.  (She's in her dressing gown when we see her and Faith on the porch at the end.  I'm just saying…)

Yeah, that's my theory too, more than a few Jaith fics out there. 

[lembergwatcher]

49 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

he gets to have a white Christmas in California which is a rarity

And spends it alone outside in his sleeping bag, unlike all the rest (well, maybe except Giles). What an achievement.

[Halting Hex]

Plus his Captain America (or perhaps The Avengers?  I can see Cap's shield but not all the figures) comic is just going to get wrecked from all that snow melting on it.  I grant you the morning dew might have done the job anyway, as Xander just had the book laying open and on the grass (bag that sucker! And put it inside something!), but I'm reasonably certain Xander wasn't counting on that much moisture, in any event.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎16‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 11:41 AM, lembergwatcher said:

And spends it alone outside in his sleeping bag, unlike all the rest (well, maybe except Giles). What an achievement.

Thankfully in later years he'll have

Spoiler

Anya to keep him company. 

[lembergwatcher]

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Thankfully in later years he'll have

  Reveal hidden contents

Spoiler

Screw Anya and her company. But you're right. And that's one of the reasons I regret they didn't let Xander die in a blaze of glory in Graduation Day, Part 2.

[Halting Hex]

Don't taunt, Joe.  It's tacky. :)

Spoiler

And at least Anya's having her apartment means that Xander doesn't have to spend Christmas, 1999 outside.

[lembergwatcher]

I like Giles with the crossbow. Don't like the waste of opportunity to use it. And why couldn't Broody Boy approach Giles with something reminiscent of an apology earlier, not when The First started pushing him over the edge?

Edited December 25, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

I don't know why Giles couldn't just have had the conversation with Angel at the doorway, or even outside in the courtyard, and kept his flat inviolate.  

I mean, clearly he went to the trouble of disinviting Angel after Passion, even though Angel had already done his damage…why give Forehead entry privileges again?

Perhaps on some level Giles was hoping that Angel might "provoke" him and give him an excuse to fire that crossbow?  Understandable, but to quote Xander, "I don't need an excuse; I think that 'lots of dead people' actually constitutes a 'reason'."

(So Buffy sulks a bit when she finds out Angel's "left town".  She'll get over it.)

[lembergwatcher]

I think I can write essays about why I strongly dislike this episode, why almost everything depicted in it is wrong on so many levels and why the whole message of 3.10 is IMO a blatant betrayal of all the things the show stood for throughout first two seasons. But there's one thing I'd like to point out, the one thing that sometimes makes me wanna throw up even more than Willoz 2.0 or "Am I a thing worth saving, huh? Am I a righteous man?" bullshit.

Quote

Buffy: So we'll help him?

Giles: (realizes he has no choice) Yes.

Xander: (walks into the office) Where do we start?

He gets surprised looks from Giles and Buffy.

Xander: (abashed) Look, I'm aware I haven't been the mostest best friend to you when it comes to the whole Angel thing, and, um, I don't know, maybe I finally got the Chanukah spirit.

 I won't say a word about Giles feeling "obliged" or whatever to please Buffy and save his lover's murderer and his ruthless tormentor. Once a lapdog - always a lapdog, after all.

But... Xander??? I have it right, don't I? It's Xander who has to make amends? Xander is the one who has to make it up to Buffy and not the other way around? I'm stunned actually. The whole moment left me literally speechless when I saw the ep for the first time long ago. Well, I know Team Joss has a thing for humiliating the least favorite character of the 'Verse, but how about some moderation? If you hate this particular character so much why not just persuade Nick to terminate his contract, offer him the part in one of other Whedon's projects and then kill Xander with a clear conscience but spare his fans all this shit?

Because I cannot find a single reason for Xander to feel awkward or try to make amends with Buffy. According to Whedonite logic, objecting to Bangel travesty does make Xander a "bad friend", but lying through teeth while hiding the murderous monster somehow doesn't do the same thing with Buffy. Because apparently it was Xander who destroyed lots of innocent lives and was about to end the world, not Captain Forehead... Hilarious. 

And don't tell me Xander offering his help is a sure sign of strength or maturity in his case because I'm not that naive. It just seems odd to me that Xander is allowed to be "mature" only when it suits Buffy or any other character but not when it suits Xander himself.

Spoiler

Xander's attempts to make it up to other people, be it Cordelia, Anya or Buffy herself, will become a recurring theme for the remainder of the series. Unfortunately I don't remember any other Buffyverse character being equally gentle and trying to make amends with Xander. And forgiveness is supposed to be a two-way street AFAIK...

[Halting Hex]

So, I'm watching Liam Duke fawn over this (because he lurrrrrves Willow/Oz and has bought into Buffy/Angel), but even he can barely keep from laughing at Angel's "Irish" accent and rolling his eyes at the MiracleSnow™.  Because even for the canon-'shippers, some things are just A Cheese Too Far.

Some other notes:

•  I noticed that they go to a lot of trouble in the "Angel sees First!Jenny all over Giles" scene to make sure Angel doesn't actually say Jenny's name.  

Quote

ANGEL (agitated):  Don't you see her?
GILES (confused): Who?

Angel freaks out and runs away

Because if Angel actually had said "Jenny…", I'm thinking that crossbow was getting fired before he finished the "-y…" part.  So I could see the contrivance here.

•  While Liam may love the Willoz scenes, I was a bit uncomfortable about the "seduction" scene, where Willow seems so immature with the whispered "we could do that thing" being as far as she could go to referring to sex. 

Spoiler

As Xander will say in Wild at Heart, "If you're doing it, you should be able to say it."

I've always been disquieted about how Oz feels so much older than Willow, even though it's only a year's worth of age.  It's not like Angel/Buffy levels of exploitativeness, but still.  I mean, I'm pretty sure that Oz's sexual experience isn't just the one groupie.  Made me twitchier than I needed to be, IMO.

• I've always hated Joyce's "Angel's on top?" line and Buffy's subsequent take…oh, Buffy thinks Joyce is talking about her sexy dream, but it was just the Christmas tree ornaments!  Ha-ha! 

(First of all, It's a bit of a steal from Joyce asking Buffy if she had "fun" when she's sneaking home from getting plucked in Innocence and Buffy reacts in surprise before Joyce says "at Willow's" and Buffy remembers that this was the lie she told and so Joyce hasn't actually sniffed out her deflowering, after all.  [Well, unless Joyce thought Buffy and Willow were "having fun", but still.])

But aside from it being such a clunky line, aside from it making no logical sense (why would Joyce only enquire about one of the ornaments when she's offering Buffy a choice of two?) and aside from it being rather ungrammatical ("Angel? Or star?"  What, have you fallen under a curse that prevents you from using articles, Joyce?  What's wrong with "which do you prefer:  the angel or the star?"), aside from all that…surely Joyce remembers that "Angel" is the name of Buffy's boyfriend.  Whom Joyce really does not like, and whom she was terrified of when he came to the house, a whopping two episodes ago.

Do we really think that Joyce would even be letting that word in her mouth, much less saying things that could be misconstrued as sexual innuendo?  (At the very least, she should be flustered when she realizes what she says and how it could be [mis-]taken.)  Frankly, I'm surprised that Joyce even considered putting an "Angel" ornament on the tree, given how she resents the man who took her daughter's virginity and (in Joyce's mind) caused her little girl to run away, not to mention all the murders and violence that (one assumes) somebody eventually told Joyce that Angel was responsible for.  I wouldn't have blamed Joyce if she'd done a Buffy-on-the-Master's-skeleton job on the dashed thing, to be honest.

• I've written in the past about how stupid it is that there are like 6000 "it's SO HOT" lines (to set up the snow at the end) and yet Cynthia Bergstrom has the cast all wearing layers and overcoats and that sort of thing.  (I once did a post on TWoP with screencaps to illustrate.) But at least I can say that they filmed this in October/November and when they're shooting Buffy and Xander on the street outside of Willy's bar, maybe Nick and SMG did need to dress a little warmly.

But when Faith shows up at Revello Dr. and Buffy makes a point of saying "come in from the entire lack of cold", I just noticed that Eliza is wearing some sort of leatherette jacket.  FFS, I'm pretty sure that a Slayer doesn't need to bundle up when it's SO HOT, and as this is an interior scene, it can't be that Eliza's in danger of freezing her Dushkus off, either.  (And I'd accept that Faith wants to "dress nice" for Christmas dinner, perhaps, but she's got the jacket all zipped up.  Oy.)

45 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said:

It's Xander who has to make amends?

Yes, because he said Mean Words to Buffy about Dear Forehead.  The insanity that Buffy would even consider dating Angel after Season 2 (oh, he's "not responsible", is he?  Well that totally makes up for his trying to kill my mom, then!) is nothing compared to Xander being slow to come around on the Support-o-Guy front, dontcha know?

Spoiler

It's pretty annoying that they backed off from the original plan to make Angel a mid-season series.  They could have left Buffy single for most of the year, had Angel pop out of the portal and leave for LA without telling Buffy he was back from Acathla's realm, and then build towards a brief, failed "reunion" at season's end.  And then Broody Boy wouldn't be pointlessly casting his shadow over the season, as he does here.  Sigh.

Edited January 25, 2019 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

I'd be less angry about this sorry ep if Buffy had made a goodwill gesture and invited Xander to Christmas Eve dinner since he approached her and offered his help in dealing with Angel and The First. Buffy knew about Xander's home life, after all. That would've been the sign of true reconciliation between two friends. But I suppose it's too much to hope... Because Faith is obviously more important...

Yeah, "it sucks to be Xander" was a new party line but a special Christmas episode could have changed that at least for a little while...

[Halting Hex]

1 hour ago, lembergwatcher said:

Because Faith is obviously more important...

Ahem, have you seen Faith??  In leather[-ette], no less.  Buffy's not made of steel, people!  Woof.

Spoiler

I mean, even Xander won't prove immune from being steered around those curves.  But that's for later in the season, I'll allow.

[lembergwatcher]

If dressing in an outfit that screams "I'm a lustful sex bomb!" is all it takes to become Buffy's top priority, than something is terribly wrong here. I mean, I'm all for B/F mutual attraction (in fact, I like it 10,000 times more than wretched Bangel), but shouldn't B/X history be a little bit more important than Faith's curves? Buffy could have invited both Faith and Xander, after all. The more - the merrier.

[Halting Hex]

2 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

If dressing in an outfit that screams "I'm a lustful sex bomb!" is all it takes to become Buffy's top priority, than something is terribly wrong here.

What, you're expecting Buffy to start prioritizing brainpower now?  Somehow I don't really think she was into Angel because he read Sartre.  (Even if his copy of La Nausée was in the original French.)

Spoiler

 

Wait two episodes to see how much his birthday gift of the Browning poems un-thrills her.  Or, as I wrote on "Lines You'll Never Hear on BtVS" back in the day:

BUFFY:  It's a book.  An old book.  About the only person I know who'd be turned on by this is Giles.

ANGEL:  Hmm.  He is single, nowadays…

 

[lembergwatcher]

One of the few likable moments in that sorry episode. And to think this could have been the beginning of a beautiful friendship romance between the slaying sisters. Buffy, why are you so blind? Look at Faith. She's hot and she's beautiful. And she does have a pulse. And she came to your door! What else do you want, you picky spoiled child??? How can you trade this beauty for your walking corpse of a boyfriend??? Come on, Buff, how can you think about anyone else, be it Angel or Willow, if your sis is seducing you right there???

Edited March 18, 2019 by lembergwatcher

[lembergwatcher]

On 1/25/2019 at 3:52 PM, Halting Hex said:

Because if Angel actually had said "Jenny…", I'm thinking that crossbow was getting fired before he finished the "-y…" part.

I still wonder why Gilles didn't even try to take matters into his own hands and make Angel meet the pointy end of the stake? Didn't Jenny deserve justice? Didn't all those countless victims from both the days of the "Scourge of Europe" and Angelus 2.0 deserve some resemblance of justice too?

Spoiler

Holtz deserves the respect at least for trying to make Angel pay. Not the case with the Scoobies apparently...

But no, this ep tries to persuade viewer that freaking Angel is somehow a victim here... Mistery to me why did Giles decide against going after Angel. His only response turns out to be scolding Buffy in Revelations and that's it. What happened to Ripper and his balls?

 

[mmecorday]

I laughed out loud at Angel's awful long wig and cheesy mustache in this episode. Pop up Halloween stores are not a good source for wigs or pretend facial hair.

Quote

Mistery to me why did Giles decide against going after Angel.

I think when Buffy tearfully told Giles that she couldn't manage her duties without him, he decided going after Angel by himself was a fool's errand.

Quote

(Also, the Miracle Snow™ is so stupid.  Are vampires roaming the streets of Chicago and the midwest whenever there's a snow storm?  Diffused light is not the absence of light, genius.)

I know, right? Just because the sun is hidden behind clouds doesn't mean it's disappeared.