dcalley October 20, 2014 Share October 20, 2014 Thirteen years after Lewis' first successful arrest as a Detective Inspector, the forensics are questioned and the case reopened. But nothing can prepare Lewis for the resumption of the original murders with the original weapon. Link to comment
photo fox October 20, 2014 Share October 20, 2014 Thanks for starting the thread, dcalley! Lewis and Hathaway get the bulk of the attention for this show - as they should - but the supporting cast of women deserve a solid honorable mention. Hobson, Innocent, and now Maddox are written as smart, competent, and emotionally intelligent. They are totally believable as women who have risen to the top in a male-dominated field. So refreshing in the world of television cop shows. Such a nice moment at the end between our two leads. They've done a great job this season of showing Robbie and James's awkward transition from supervisor and employee to equals. 2 Link to comment
Pyralis October 20, 2014 Share October 20, 2014 I know the spoilers had none of the main characters dying - but I was still worried until the last few minutes. Especially with all of the postcard shots of Oxford at the beginning. It was like several minutes of "Lewis Greatest Visual Hits." 2 Link to comment
dustylil October 20, 2014 Share October 20, 2014 I enjoyed this episode more than I have of many in the series. However, I was more than a little taken aback by Lewis' dismissal of the existence of a clear alibi for one of the original murders as a minor, probably clerical, error. No, it is a great deal more than that and bears looking into. It might even suggest the existence of an accomplice. Link to comment
pcta October 20, 2014 Share October 20, 2014 I know the spoilers had none of the main characters dying - but I was still worried until the last few minutes. Especially with all of the postcard shots of Oxford at the beginning. It was like several minutes of "Lewis Greatest Visual Hits." Me, too. Liked this but missed bits and pieces due to new kitten in the household who timed her "I'm going bonkers" kitten routine in the middle of the show. Will have to rewatch tomorrow. Link to comment
Zahdii October 20, 2014 Share October 20, 2014 Liked this but missed bits and pieces due to new kitten in the household who timed her "I'm going bonkers" kitten routine in the middle of the show. Will have to rewatch tomorrow. What is it with cats and this show? I'll need to re-watch myself as I always miss a few things the first viewing. 1 Link to comment
truther October 20, 2014 Share October 20, 2014 I enjoyed watching this episode but the more I think about it the less sense the story actually makes. That final policeman to die -- the one who was murdered in the present -- was basically killed because Lewis et al absolutely completely bungled the first investigation. They sent the wrong man (however detestable) to prison because of a lost alibi, which is bad enough. Then Lewis actually admitted, once they'd nabbed the printer lady, that he didn't even know she existed back in 2003. She was the murderer! She killed four policemen, and almost killed Maddox, and killed Lawrie, and you did such an awful job you didn't even know who she was?!? In my world Lewis would be drummed out of the department faster than you can say "breathtaking professional incompetence." Link to comment
pcta October 20, 2014 Share October 20, 2014 Although I have yet to rewatch, I don't think he was the wrong man for the murders, I believe she was his accomplice and contacted the victims - he did the killings? .. . . But I'll rewatch. 4 Link to comment
Milz October 20, 2014 Share October 20, 2014 I enjoyed watching this episode but the more I think about it the less sense the story actually makes. That final policeman to die -- the one who was murdered in the present -- was basically killed because Lewis et al absolutely completely bungled the first investigation. They sent the wrong man (however detestable) to prison because of a lost alibi, which is bad enough. Then Lewis actually admitted, once they'd nabbed the printer lady, that he didn't even know she existed back in 2003. She was the murderer! She killed four policemen, and almost killed Maddox, and killed Lawrie, and you did such an awful job you didn't even know who she was?!? In my world Lewis would be drummed out of the department faster than you can say "breathtaking professional incompetence." I'll have to re-watch because I think he killed the first two, but she killed the third , which provided the alibi, for the first set of murders. 1 Link to comment
truther October 20, 2014 Share October 20, 2014 Oh, perhaps I missed that, which shows how closely I was paying attention (or how much sense the resolution made for me). But either way my point pretty much still stands -- Lewis didn't even know she existed. Whether she murdered two cops and was the accomplice for the other two murders, or murdered all four herself, Lewis failed even to uncover her existence let alone competently rule her out as a possible suspect. Link to comment
M. Darcy October 20, 2014 Share October 20, 2014 Heh, its always the crazy spurned girlfriend that is the killer. I figured she killed him when they made the point of saying that she hadn't seen him after he got out. I was worried that they would actually kill Maddox. For you long time viewers of Masterpiece Theatre, the actress who played the shrink (what was her job besides saying that Lawrie was insane?) was Susan Wooldridge who played Daphne Manners in The Jewel in the Crown. Link to comment
Milz October 20, 2014 Share October 20, 2014 For you long time viewers of Masterpiece Theatre, the actress who played the shrink (what was her job besides saying that Lawrie was insane?) was Susan Wooldridge who played Daphne Manners in The Jewel in the Crown. Yes. Which means, they've had Daphne Manners and Hari Kumar (Art Malik , episode "Allegory of Love") on the show. :-) I was surprised that Maddox is married/engaged/in a relationship. I didn't get that impression from the first two episodes. It was like BOOM! Lizzie has a boyfriend/husband named Tony. Link to comment
dustylil October 20, 2014 Share October 20, 2014 My understanding was that Lawrie killed two of the police officers and the girlfriend killed the other. What I didn't understand is that if Lawrie had a verifiable alibi for one of the killings, why did it take thirteen years for it to become known? If it was part of the police file (even if buried), Lawrie himself and most likely his legal team would have been aware there was exculpatory information. Why the long wait? Apart from the murders, I found it hard to believe that the authorities in this day and age would blithely allow the visiting girlfriend to bring Lawrie "books" without checking the contents. Yes, it was only drugs. However, it was not as if Lawrie was believed to be a meek and harmless individual, simply waiting out his sentence. The "books" could have contained weapons, poison, explosives or any number of other mischief-making items. 1 Link to comment
Milz October 20, 2014 Share October 20, 2014 They chalked up the long wait to mishandled DNA. But I think in some bizarre twisted way, Lawrie kept mum about the third murder because it proved Lewis was a failure. Since Lawrie hated cops, it sort of gave Lawrie more reason to hate them (at least that's what I got out of girlfriend's confession). Speaking of girlfriend....I watch Judge Judy and girlfriend was like the fictional version of the Judge Judy litigant who supports (financially and emotionally) some loser boyfriend/husband and then get mad when said loser dumps her. And I figured she murdered him, all of the women one JJ would murder their loser boyfriends if they could get away with it. Kind of funny that she was a bookbinder in the Bodleian, I've just finished reading the All Soul's Trilogy by Deborah Harkness, part of which takes place in the Bodleian. Now I have a visual on that place (not like I'll ever read that trilogy again---once was enough.) Lawrie's cell attendant (I don't know what else to call the guy) was getting the drugs from Lawrie, so maybe he turned a blind eye to it. Afterall, he was the one who smuggled a cell phone to Lawrie. Link to comment
peeayebee October 20, 2014 Share October 20, 2014 I thought that Lawrie killed all three police officers in the past, and that Pamela, the accomplice, made the 999 phone calls. In the present time she killed the cop in the tower and tried to kill Maddox. I may have to rewatch her confession scene. I enjoyed this ep. Lots of likely suspects. One complaint is that I wanted to see Lawrie get his comeuppance, not get killed. The student who idolized him was creepy, even before we knew much about him. Just the way he held out his hand to shake was icky. Oh, what was the food snack that Hathaway gave to Maddox? 1 Link to comment
M. Darcy October 20, 2014 Share October 20, 2014 I thought that Lawrie killed all three police officers in the past, and that Pamela, the accomplice, made the 999 phone calls. In the present time she killed the cop in the tower and tried to kill Maddox. That's how I understood it. And, he gave her the murder weapon so that's why she had it. Oh, what was the food snack that Hathaway gave to Maddox? Some pork product but I can't remember what kind. Heh, Lewis should just remember - always bring grapes. Link to comment
attica October 20, 2014 Share October 20, 2014 Oh, what was the food snack that Hathaway gave to Maddox? They were pork rinds (called 'scratchings' in England), which are salty and fatty and savory, and bad for you, unless you're having such a severe craving that without them you might do harm to self or others, in which case you should have them and STAT. Not that I know anything about it. I've just read stuff. I thought the weirdo student was one of those boy band kids. They all look alike to me, all hair and teeth. 1 Link to comment
Merneith October 21, 2014 Share October 21, 2014 I don't understand why Lawrie and Squeaky Fromme there weren't arrested for smuggling drugs into the prison. And why wasn't the nurse arrested for giving Lawrie the cell phone? I get that once Lawrie's previous conviction was overturned he was free to leave his cell, but before that, regardless of the appeal, smuggling contraband in a prison is a crime in and of itself, isn't it? Even if his conviction was vacated, that wouldn't excuse other crimes - especially if drugs were involved. 2 Link to comment
dustylil October 21, 2014 Share October 21, 2014 Assuming there was any logic to it all - my guess is that the authorities hadn't got round to charging Lawrie and his admirers with those offenses as yet. He had only been released for a short time. Also, while he was undoubtedly guilty of these lesser crimes, the Crown may have been pondering whether or not to even go ahead. Given that his earlier convictions for far more serious charges had just been overturned, further efforts might have been seen as persecution rather than prosecution. Link to comment
dcalley October 22, 2014 Author Share October 22, 2014 The red letters were "To strive, to seek." So Lewis, who is at an event with a bunch of policemen, realizes Maddox is in trouble and then runs off by himself to check on her? I understand keeping Tony in the dark, and Innocent maybe never goes in the field, but grab someone to go with you, Robbie! 3 Link to comment
dustylil October 22, 2014 Share October 22, 2014 Or alert the command centre and have any police cars in the vicinity of where she is supposed to be and have them check up on her! God forbid, the lead not be there to conduct the rescue. 2 Link to comment
Milz October 22, 2014 Share October 22, 2014 (edited) The red letters were "To strive, to seek." So Lewis, who is at an event with a bunch of policemen, realizes Maddox is in trouble and then runs off by himself to check on her? I understand keeping Tony in the dark, and Innocent maybe never goes in the field, but grab someone to go with you, Robbie! When Tony stumbled in looking for Maddox, Innocent was standing next to Lewis. And she was there when Maddox got the message that Tony was injured. I realize that Robbie was recalled from retirement because they are short staff, but come on.......... Edited October 22, 2014 by Milz Link to comment
dcalley October 22, 2014 Author Share October 22, 2014 (edited) When Tony stumbled in looking for Maddox, Innocent was standing next to Lewis. And she was there when Maddox got the message that Tony was injured. I know Innocent was there, which is why it seemed a little strange to me that she didn't go with Lewis to find Maddox, but I speculated that she might not be trained for physical police work (chasing, confronting bad guys). Not going could actually be a wise decision on her part, but I'm not sure she was given the chance to make that decision. It seems like Lewis just ran out of there without explaining his suspicions to anyone even though he was surrounded by cops eager to catch the person attacking cops. And as dustylil said, someone else not at this gathering might have been able to get to Maddox faster if he had called HQ. Edited October 22, 2014 by dcalley Link to comment
Mrs. Dimmer October 22, 2014 Share October 22, 2014 (edited) Why would she refuse him accompanying her? And once there, with no other cars there, no sign of a living soul in the place where her husband's been injured, she just strolls in? There was plenty of dumb going around. Except for Hathaway; he can do no wrong. Edited October 22, 2014 by superversion 1 Link to comment
dcalley October 22, 2014 Author Share October 22, 2014 (edited) And once there, with no other cars there, no sign of a living soul in the place where her husband's been injured, she just strolls in? There was plenty of dumb going around. It was dumb, wasn't it? I thought that Lawrie killed all three police officers in the past, and that Pamela, the accomplice, made the 999 phone calls. In the present time she killed the cop in the tower and tried to kill Maddox. I may have to rewatch her confession scene. This was my understanding, and the synopsis says In the original trio of killings, she made the distress calls that lured police to Lawrie’s lair, while he wielded the fatal hammer. Frustrated that her superhero never considered her an equal partner, she killed Travis and tried to kill Maddox to attract his attention. When that didn’t work, she had to kill him. Edited October 22, 2014 by dcalley Link to comment
lucindabelle October 23, 2014 Share October 23, 2014 In this country a missing alibi like that would be grounds for a new trial, period, the end. It's not a minor thing. Glad the psychiatrist wasn't the perp. What was the point with the college kid? Was he a baby psycho? Why did Laurie even dump the girlfriend? I never was clear whether he had been using her or never loved her or what, Was anyone else thinking of e Beatles song maxwells silver hammer? Listened to that in the car th either day and was like why is this song funny when it's about a homicidal psychopath with fans.... Link to comment
dustylil October 23, 2014 Share October 23, 2014 It was Lewis who thought the existence of an alibi was a minor thing. Hathaway, incredulous at Lewis' opinion, thought otherwise. Link to comment
peeayebee October 23, 2014 Share October 23, 2014 What was the point with the college kid? Was he a baby psycho? Why did Laurie even dump the girlfriend? I never was clear whether he had been using her or never loved her or what, Was anyone else thinking of e Beatles song maxwells silver hammer? I think the college kid was a serial killer-to-be. He was uber-creepy. IMO, the point with him was to be a red herring. I saw Lawrie as using the girlfriend from the very beginning. He first used her to make the 999 calls, then in prison he used her to smuggle things inside and also promote his innocence. And, yes, I was thinking of Maxwell's Silver Hammer. I'm old enough to have been around when my sister was playing that album. I got a big kick out of the song. Link to comment
attica October 23, 2014 Share October 23, 2014 ....And there's my earworm for the day! Thanks, peeayebee! 1 Link to comment
truther October 23, 2014 Share October 23, 2014 But if Lawrie actually killed all three victims the first go-around then the alibi is fake, isn't it? I thought the whole point of the missing alibi was that it showed that Lawrie wasn't the killer for at least one of the murders? That's one of the evidentiary screwups that got Lawrie's conviction overturned and got him released from prison. If the alibi was fake then that whole controversy is moot and the court wouldn't have cared any more than Lewis did. The alibi's only important if it's relevant to Lawrie's guilt or innocence. 1 Link to comment
dustylil October 23, 2014 Share October 23, 2014 That was my understanding as well, truther. The alibi was only important if it impacted on Lawrie's guilt or innocence. So was the alibi fake or not? I only watched the episode once while tidying up after supper, so I can't say the episode had my complete attention. And can't see it again due to regional viewing restrictions. But my understanding was that the alibi was indeed genuine. Was this wrong? If the alibi was valid, at the very least should it not have led the police to the idea that Lawrie likely had one or more accomplice back then - given the similarities of all three murders? Link to comment
peeayebee October 24, 2014 Share October 24, 2014 I forgot about the alibi. Did they mention what it was specifically? Maybe the girlfriend DID do the third murder. Link to comment
Zahdii October 25, 2014 Share October 25, 2014 I forgot about the alibi. Did they mention what it was specifically? Maybe the girlfriend DID do the third murder. No, she said in the end that he committed all three of the first murders and her only involvement was to make the emergency calls. That in itself should have tipped the police off to an accomplice once they were sure that psycho did the murders - if a woman's calling in distress calls and the cop sent to help her is killed and she's never heard from again, you wonder why you're not looking for a woman when a man is believed to be the killer. And this happened three times. If the caller disguised their voice, wouldn't evidence of that disguise be found when the original 999 tapes are listened to after the fact? Is there an actual device that could make one woman's voice sound like another person's even to the point of fooling experts? Link to comment
Driad October 25, 2014 Share October 25, 2014 Would it be accurate to guess that this case was not in the old Morse series? Link to comment
kassygreene October 25, 2014 Share October 25, 2014 An accurate guess! Lewis was still a Detective Sergeant when Morse died, although I think he was qualified for promotion, or nearly so. He refers to this case as his first major case or investigation or something as a Detective Inspector. 1 Link to comment
Swansong October 26, 2014 Share October 26, 2014 But if Lawrie actually killed all three victims the first go-around then the alibi is fake, isn't it? I thought the whole point of the missing alibi was that it showed that Lawrie wasn't the killer for at least one of the murders? That's one of the evidentiary screwups that got Lawrie's conviction overturned and got him released from prison. If the alibi was fake then that whole controversy is moot and the court wouldn't have cared any more than Lewis did. The alibi's only important if it's relevant to Lawrie's guilt or innocence. I would assume it was fake because if it was real and someone bothered to go to the trouble to give a statement why didn't they come forward during the first trial or tell Lawrie's lawyer or come forward at any of his appeals? And why wouldn't Lawrie have told his attorney if he had a valid alibi. Of course even if it was a fake alibi if he went to the trouble of having someone make a statement why not still tell his lawyer about it because he seemed like the type. And it's not as if the lawyer helping with his appeal didn't find out about it so if there was an alibi floating around you'd think they'd make more effort to find that person because that would help their case. The only explanation I can come up with is that it was fake and probably the accomplice who gave it and Lawrie didn't push it because he didn't want the police looking too closely at her or something because he figured it would cause him more problems than help. I'm not sure either way it makes much sense that it didn't come to light sooner. But I thought the reason his conviction was overturned had more to do with the conduct of the investigating team than whether the actual evidence was real or not. Like the DNA evidence was real, but the handling of it was so bungled that gave cause for reasonable doubt. And with the alibi statement it was more about the fact that it might have been buried or misplaced during the initial investigation more than whether it was real or not. At least that's how I read it because no-one really seemed interested in finding the alibi witness or establishing its validity not even Lawrie's lawyer. No, she said in the end that he committed all three of the first murders and her only involvement was to make the emergency calls. That in itself should have tipped the police off to an accomplice once they were sure that psycho did the murders - if a woman's calling in distress calls and the cop sent to help her is killed and she's never heard from again, you wonder why you're not looking for a woman when a man is believed to be the killer. And this happened three times. Yeah she said he killed the first three police officers and she made the calls to the police. I think she said she disguised her voice. But just the fact that someone just happened to call in every time one of the murders happened should have clued them in to a possible accomplice, but maybe they assumed it was Lawrie making the calls, I don't know. She killed the last police office and almost killed Maddox when Lawrie refused to see her before his appeal hearing because she thought it would get his attention. So he didn't actually instigate those murders in order to help his case like Lewis thought. But the initial case did seem pretty bungled. Maybe Lewis was still grieving over the death of Morse back then and wasn't concentrating on the case like he should have been? 2 Link to comment
beadgirl August 3, 2016 Share August 3, 2016 I've never liked these sorts of stories, where an obviously guilty person is about to be released because something got bungled and the defense attorney has the temerity to demand due process and now our hero is being accused of malfeasance and blah blah blah. Nor do I like episodes where serial killers drone on and on about how much more clever and powerful they are than the rest of us sheeple. So this was probably my least favorite Lewis episode. And, as Swansong pointed out the first time, it didn't make a lot of sense, particularly with regard to the lost alibi statement and how it was handled. But now, on to new episodes! I'm really going to miss this series. 2 Link to comment
officetemp August 4, 2016 Share August 4, 2016 (edited) On 8/3/2016 at 1:33 PM, beadgirl said: I've never liked these sorts of stories, where an obviously guilty person is about to be released because something got bungled and the defense attorney has the temerity to demand due process and now our hero is being accused of malfeasance and blah blah blah. Nor do I like episodes where serial killers drone on and on about how much more clever and powerful they are than the rest of us sheeple. So this was probably my least favorite Lewis episode. And, as Swansong pointed out the first time, it didn't make a lot of sense, particularly with regard to the lost alibi statement and how it was handled. But now, on to new episodes! I'm really going to miss this series. Yes, I really dislike it when the big baddie goes around all arrogant and sneering condescendingly at Our Heroes because the Baddie is so obviously superior intellectually to everyone else in the whole wide world. It's the kind of character that makes the viewers (or this viewer, at least) hope fervently that something extremely horrible happens to the Baddie by the end of the episode and he/she finally gets what they deserve. It made me appreciate how Hathaway was so unemotionally non-reactive to Lawrie during the session in the interrogation room. Hathaway just kind of expressionlessly gazed at Lawrie with kind of a bored look on his (Hathaway's) face instead of being baited and responding as if his buttons were being pushed. I was halfway expecting the female psychologist (psychiatrist?) to be killed by that awful student when they showed him going up the steps to her office. Wondering how Morse would have reacted to the pork scratchings/pork rinds. Love Maddox and felt so sorry for husband Tony. Poor guy. Edited August 4, 2016 by officetemp Link to comment
Sulador August 8, 2016 Share August 8, 2016 What was that gorgeous hotel with the beautiful wooden staircase? Link to comment
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