Sansa Stark: A Direwolf In Sheep's Clothing?

[Holmbo]

When did Tyrion want to get Sansa out of Kingslanding? I agree though that they did have a bit of a connection in the show.

[Advance35]

None of the Starks are allowed to form friendships, really. It seems to backfire on every single one of them, including Ned (Robert) and Cat (Littlefinger). Robb thought he had a friend in Theon Greyjoy. See what I mean?

 

But Bran and Rickon have found allies in Osha, Jojen and Meera, respectively.   Arya has managed to collect a menajerie of allies as well.   I guess they are on different journeys than Sansa, their antagonist seem to be clear cut villains where Sansa deals with villainy in seemingly more civilized areanas.  But on rewatch I do wonder how Sansa felt about everything, I wish we had a little more insight.   She seems to be stone walling Shae like everyone else.   Her roll of the eyes when Joffrey and Margaery kissed at the Purple Wedding and her muttering of "We have a new Queen."   I noticed at the Wedding Feast, when Margaery makes her announcement she says "And now that the war has been brought to a Just end."  It makes me wonder what Sansa's current outlook towards House Tyrell, the closest to "friends" she's had while in the Capital, is.

 

In terms of Tyrion, I toss and turn over whether he and Sansa would have evolved in a positive manner.   In the show I think a rapport definitely came through.   The scene in the premier of Season 4, I definitely got the impression Tyrion cared about her and was going to find some way to motivate Sansa to carry on.  Any headway they made was definitely destroyed by the Red Wedding but I thought their last real interaction was very telling.  Tyrion putting his hand over Sansa's during the Jousting Dwarfs and Sansa picking the cup up so he didn't have to crawl around and get it.

 

Not friends and I don't think I'd even call them allies but a definite understanding? Maybe.  Though it only goes so far since Sansa is more concerned with being forced to marry Robin Arynn than Tyrions execution during her "chat" with Lyssa last season.  

 

I was given the impression in the books and the show definitely reinforced my belief that Tyrion and Sansa will meet again.   I don't know if it will be as either friends or foes but I think they will.   And I do agree that they both have a strong interest in toppling the current power structure.   And I feel like Tyrion has a grudge match coming against Baelish.  I know many think Sansa will be his undoing one day and I could see her being involved but I see Sansa as working to build something.   I don't know if I see her getting her hands dirty.

[Maximum Taco]

When did Tyrion want to get Sansa out of Kingslanding? I agree though that they did have a bit of a connection in the show.

 

I could be misremembering, but I believe he makes a remark about sending her to Casterly Rock after Joff's wedding.

 

Mainly to prevent Joffrey from tormenting her further.

[Hecate7]

I could be misremembering, but I believe he makes a remark about sending her to Casterly Rock after Joff's wedding.

 

Mainly to prevent Joffrey from tormenting her further.

Exactly. And then he mentally beat himself up for expecting her to want to go, because why would she want to visit HIS family seat when his family exterminated hers? And he muttered some apology like, "well, I guess you have to be a Lannister to love it..." or something like that, and cursed himself for his insensitivity.

 

He wanted to get her away from court, away from Joffrey and Cersei, but he didn't want to order her around, so he made the suggestion and waited for her reaction. She didn't react, and so he assumed she didn't want to go. Other places didn't really occur to him because they were either sitting in war zones or full of crazy people. If Sansa had asked to be sent somewhere, anywhere, he'd have sent her, with money and a retinue and anything else she wanted. He just didn't know what to do with her, and vice versa.

 

I hope we find out that Sansa actually knows what a creep Baelish is, and instead of helping him kill Tyrion from a distance, is actually going to flip it around on him. But she may end up having to help Baelish get away with killing a lot of people either way.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Hecate7

[screamin]

IIRC, in the book, Tyrion

was at least as concerned about his own safety in getting out of Joffrey's court and back to Casterly Rock as he was with Sansa's safety, as he specifically said that he felt himself threatened by Joffrey...IIRC, Sansa's safety was not foremost in his mind.

[Hecate7]

IIRC, in the book, Tyrion

was at least as concerned about his own safety in getting out of Joffrey's court and back to Casterly Rock as he was with Sansa's safety, as he specifically said that he felt himself threatened by Joffrey...IIRC, Sansa's safety was not foremost in his mind.

 

No. He'd already declined to leave King's Landing at Shae's urging, to save his own hide, even after someone tried to murder him. The internal monologue specifically focuses on protecting her from Joffrey. It's actually quite specific. When she is indifferent he curses himself for thinking she'd want to go to the Lannister seat, of all places.

 

Joffrey has always been abusive to Tyrion, and Tyrion nevertheless was never afraid to stand up to him, even after he became king. And it was  usually, ironically, on behalf of one Stark or another. Particularly Sansa.

 

The whole point of these sad internal monologues is to show how completely unaware Sansa is, that she has a friend in Tyrion, and how logical and understandable that is. Although Baelish is infatuated with her, I would not assume that she therefore has a friend in Baelish. I despair of her ever discovering that Baelish has been instrumental in wiping out her family. It's possible that once he's polished off the Arryns, he'll trust her enough to boast about something that allows her to put two and two together. I hope so.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Hecate7

[screamin]

 

The internal monologue specifically focuses on protecting her from Joffrey.

Not as far as I can tell. He admires her beauty, yes, but...

 

...when he thinks about the need to get away from Joffrey and Cersei for safety's sake, in that particular internal monologue he's always thinking about his OWN safety, not Sansa's. "In three years that cruel boy will be a man, ruling in his own right...and every dwarf with half his wits will be a long way from King's Landing"..."The boy will be as tall and strong as Jaime some day," he thought, "and I'll still be a dwarf beneath his feet. And one day he's like to make me even shorter..."

Of course, it's possible I've missed some thought of his where he specifically thought Sansa must be removed from King's Landing specifically for her own protection, but I haven't found it there.

 

My preference would be that Sansa learn to be more self-sufficient. Not just more adept at finding a protector she can blindly trust and handing over her whole fate to him, but more willing to take control of her own destiny and learn to find allies who can help her with that, while shrewdly keeping in mind her allies' weaknesses and hidden agendas. Thankfully, the story seems to be trending that way.

[Hecate7]

Ironically, again, that would have been the way to proceed with Tyrion, but it's really not an option with Littlefinger. When you're dealing with Baelish, he is not an ally. He's not splitting anything 50/50 with anybody. He will be in control of your destiny if you're playing with him, whether you know it or not, just like Tywin Lannister. Leaping from Tyrion to Littlefinger isn't anything like becoming more self sufficient.

 

Littlefinger is no more her true ally than the Tyrells were.

[Lady S.]

No. He'd already declined to leave King's Landing at Shae's urging, to save his own hide, even after someone tried to murder him. The internal monologue specifically focuses on protecting her from Joffrey. It's actually quite specific. When she is indifferent he curses himself for thinking she'd want to go to the Lannister seat, of all places.

Which internal monologue would this be? =asos]There's a searchable database of the text online now, which should prove quite handy in this regard.

There's a desire to reach out to her and make a connection, but I wouldn't really categorize that as an instinct to protect her from Joff in that specific moment. There are other parts of the chapter which I think show this missed connection is a two-way street. The moment when Tyrion wonders if Sansa is actually jealous of Marg taking her place as Joff's bride always sticks out like a sore thumb to me.

 Sansa always knew Tyrion was a fellow enemy of Joffrey, and she remembered him saving her during the throne room beating, but that's enough to trust him, nor should it be. How can Tyrion adequately protect her when he needed Pod just to keep himself alive and married her in large part due to overwhelming fear of his father?

 

Their mutual fear and hatred of his family could make for an effective partnership if they ever meet again, but not when they were still surrounded and threatened by his family. There was no lost opportunity for them to join forces and take over King's Landing together, both because Tyrion's only power came through his father (an even more dangerous mutual enemy than Joffrey) or his father's gold (Bronn and any other cutthroats he might befriend), and because they did not have mutual goals and desires beyond staying alive. Tyrion was at heart a Lannister loyalist and his interests were largely tied up in theirs, until mid-s4, after Sansa left. He fought to keep Joffrey on the throne, did whatever his father bid, and whenever he stood up to Joffrey he was not going against Lannister interests. He was disgusted by the manner of Robb's death but certainly wasn't rooting for a Stark victory. And while he did reach out more to her, it's not like he was really any more open to hear than she was to him, he let his guard down more with Shae and Bronn, just as she opened up more to Shae and Margy. Both were perfectly understandable for their positions and both barely knew and couldn't possibly fully understand the other without an ability to read minds. It was a lose-lose situation and the only way to better it would be to get free of King's Landing and Tywin's direct control. Both of them have now done so, and while I can't say either is really better off, they might have a better chance at being "friends" if their paths do cross again.

ETA:

None of the Starks are allowed to form friendships, really. It seems to backfire on every single one of them, including Ned (Robert) and Cat (Littlefinger). Robb thought he had a friend in Theon Greyjoy. See what I mean?

I think that shows that fostering always backfires on them, since that's a common thread in all three friendships. It's actually interesting to think that those similar connections for Ned, Cat and Robb were really what made the downfall of House Stark possible. But the list of people who received the Starks' trust and actually deserved it is far longer.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Lady S.

[screamin]

Ironically, again, that would have been the way to proceed with Tyrion, but it's really not an option with Littlefinger. When you're dealing with Baelish, he is not an ally. He's not splitting anything 50/50 with anybody. He will be in control of your destiny if you're playing with him, whether you know it or not, just like Tywin Lannister. Leaping from Tyrion to Littlefinger isn't anything like becoming more self sufficient.

...

Littlefinger is no more her true ally than the Tyrells were.

 

I agree that LF is not a true ally, but Tyrion had no real potential to be one either while they were together in KL. As Lady S. remarks, all Tyrion's power was given to him at the pleasure of his father, and can be removed just as easily. Nor is Tyrion really invested in ever changing the power Tywin has over him during the period of his marriage to Sansa...He entered the marriage at Tywin's behest and for his own benefit, not to benefit Sansa (this is more explicit in the book). So as long as he willingly remains under his father's thumb, serving his father's interests and obeying his father's will, he willingly remains the instrument by which Tywin claims victory over the Starks in general and oppresses Sansa in particular. Any effort Tyrion makes to make Sansa's oppression a little more cushy and comfortable doesn't change that essential fact.

 

As I said, I think Sansa needs allies that she can work with, not someone she clings to as a protector and hands over her fate to in blind trust. LF wants Sansa to trust him and hand over her fate to him as such a protector. I'm hoping that Sansa has developed wiles enough to realize that blind trust is a really bad idea and to treat him at best as an untrustworthy ally whom she should learn to use while learning his weaknesses and watching for his treachery and being ready for a suitable backstab as necessary while staying on the lookout for more trustworthy allies - all while convincingly feigning blind trust. From both recent book spoilers and the last TV episode showing Sansa's gaining of skill in power games and duplicity, I am hopeful that that is indeed what will happen.

Edited April 8, 2015 by screamin

[Lady S.]

As I said, I think Sansa needs allies that she can work with, not someone she clings to as a protector and hands over her fate to in blind trust. LF wants Sansa to trust him and hand over her fate to him as such a protector. 

Amen. And preferably one who is actually concerned with her best interests, not just keeping her alive. 

 

One moment I liked that ended up going nowhere was Ros warning Shae about Littlefinger/Sansa, because she grew up in the village outside Winterfell and remembered the bells ringing the day Sansa was born. Obviously Ros was never really a potential ally either even if she and Sansa had met, but it's nice to think Ros cared for reasons of Northern loyalty and not just a desire to sabotage Littlefinger. (I don't think she knew he had an interest in Sansa beyond the skeevy until she stole the shipping document or whatever in 3.04.)

[Hecate7]

Storm of Swords, Tyrion VIII:

 

"I had been thinking that when the roads are safe again, we might journey to Casterly Rock." Far from Joffrey and my sister. The more he thought about what Joff had done to Lives of Four Kings, the more it troubled him. There was a message there, oh yes. "It would please me to show you the Golden Gallery and the Lion's Mouth, and the Hall of Heroes where Jaime and I played as boys. You can hear thunder from below where the sea comes in."

 

 

I don't think it can be overstated that Tyrion never started fantasizing about leaving King's Landing, until he had Sansa to look after, even though Joffrey has already tried to kill him. The "message there," is a threat to Sansa--Joffrey has already killed her brother and her father,

and sent an assassin after the other one,

, and he's still got that sword.

 

"She raised her head slowly. He knew what she was seeing; the swollen brutish brow, the raw stump of his nose, his crooked pink scar and mismatched eyes. Her own eyes were big and blue and empty. "I shall go wherever my lord husband wishes."

 

 

He's hoping for something more than that, but I'm not sure what he expects. For her to say, "Yes, please, let's get far from Joffrey." Why doesn't HE say it? Are they afraid of being overheard?

 

"I hoped it might please you, my Lady."

"It will please me to please my Lord."

His mouth tightened. What a pathetic little man you are. Did you think babbling about the Lion's Mouth would make her smile? When have you ever made a woman smile but with gold? "No, it was a foolish notion. Only a Lannister can love the Rock."

"Yes, my lord, as you wish."

 

 

Here, Tyrion is making a mistake, because he's unclear which to prioritize: Sansa's emotional pain over the loss of her family and being made Tyrion's wife against her will, or her physical safety. He prioritizes the emotional pain and drops the idea of going to Casterly Rock, where Sansa would have to look at Lannister colors and words and sigils every day. He is also angry with himself for wanting her to smile, for not accepting that he could never make her smile. This is something that causes him grief and he goes into a full-on denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance over it. He would like to be able to comfort her, but how could anyone comfort her?

 

Sansa is incapable of giving Tyrion any hints about what would please her. She is traumatized, grieving, and probably very depressed at this point. Even now she knows he means well, but she can't bring herself to trust him. In her mind Casterly Rock might not be any different from King's Landing. Tyrion probably should have spelled it out for her, "Joffrey won't be there. Cersei won't be there. It's probably our best option right now." It's no different from what Baelish did, except he's got a long game in which he plans to use Sansa. Tyrion had no game in mind--he just wanted to get Sansa out of harm's way.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Hecate7

[SeanC]

I don't think it can be overstated that Tyrion never started fantasizing about leaving King's Landing, until he had Sansa to look after, even though Joffrey has already tried to kill him. The "message there," is a threat to Sansa

The book is Tyrion's gift.  Destroying the book is a threat to Tyrion.  While he never raised the prospect of leaving the city before, one of the points of his arc in ASOS is that his situation in the Lannister regime is growing steadily worse, as all the power and respect he thought he had accumulated slips away and he becomes more and more drunk and depressed.  The miserable marriage to Sansa is a big part of that, too.

[screamin]

I don't think it can be overstated that Tyrion never started fantasizing about leaving King's Landing, until he had Sansa to look after, even though Joffrey has already tried to kill him. The "message there," is a threat to Sansa--Joffrey has already killed her brother and her father, , and he's still got that sword.

IMO, it can't be overstated that Tyrion never started fantasizing about leaving King's Landing until he blurted to Joffrey the hint that he knew that Joffrey had given the obsidian-handled dagger to Bran's assassin in that same chapter - and therefore that he knew Joffrey had ordered that assassination attempt. Having blurted this, Tyrion knows he's focused Joffrey's bulls-eye on his back even worse than it was before. He even thinks so to himself: 

 

The boy knows I know now. My big mouth will be the death of me, I swear it.

 

And so in the rest of that chapter, when he thinks about danger from Joffrey, he thinks about danger to HIMSELF from Joffrey, not danger to Sansa...as in the quotes I quoted from that same chapter:

 

"In three years that cruel boy will be a man, ruling in his own right...and every dwarf with half his wits will be a long way from King's Landing"..."The boy will be as tall and strong as Jaime some day," he thought, "and I'll still be a dwarf beneath his feet. And one day he's like to make me even shorter..."

 

It's funny how you say that Tyrion's internal monologue :

...specifically focuses on protecting her from Joffrey. It's actually quite specific.

 

- when there's not one word in Tyrion's internal monologue where he even MENTIONS specifically protecting Sansa from Joffrey (and if I'm wrong about that, please provide the quote and I will humbly admit error). He only thinks about how Joffrey is dangerous to HIM. I think you're idealizing Tyrion in a way that's not substantiated by the text.

 

The omission of any thought in Tyrion's mind about protecting Sansa is especially striking when we remember that Joffrey cheerfully threatened Sansa with rape at the wedding breakfast that morning.

 

Sansa is incapable of giving Tyrion any hints about what would please her. She is traumatized, grieving, and probably very depressed at this point. Even now she knows he means well, but she can't bring herself to trust him.

 

Ah, but you see, that's just the problem. Sansa knows Tyrion's been kind, but he's given her no reason for her to trust him with her desire to get away from the Lannisters. It's a treasonous desire on her part, and Tyrion's never betrayed the Lannisters in any important way. His defiance of his father's wishes only went so far as to keep him from deflowering her - not from wedding her. His defiance of Joffrey only went so far as his angry outburst to Joffrey at his wedding - now he's letting rape threats pass without reaction and without bothering to reassure her afterwards that he will not allow Joffrey to rape her. To get her permanently out of Tywin's hands and power would be a public betrayal of the Lannisters far worse than privately postponing his deflowering of her.

 

Sansa wants desperately to escape the Lannisters'  power - and Tyrion can't help her do that without betraying his family. Sansa has no reason to believe Tyrion would betray his family for her sake. Asking him to do so would be an act of "trust" as you say - blind trust in a potential protector, not informed trust of an equal ally. And as a protector, Tyrion would frankly have been a failure even if Sansa had tried to blindly put her fate in HIS hands. He has (as Lady S. said) no power aside from what Tywin allots him through figurehead Joffrey - and these are precisely the people Sansa wants to escape from. Away from them, he has no power of his own, and can't even protect himself.

 

Sansa wanted to escape from the Lannisters so badly that she was willing to risk death by blindly trusting in drunken Dontos as a protector. THAT was how much she wanted to stop being a Lannister plaything, and I think the choice to risk death for that rather than live a safe but miserable life at KL took courage that merits respect. And - through luck, mostly - she ended up making the best choice for herself, IMO. She's in a lot more advantageous position than she would have been  if she'd chosen to stay in KL with Tyrion. Now what I want her to do is stop casting the dice blindly and staking her life on the throw and learn how to load the dice and stack the deck in her favor. LF can teach her to do that, if she takes care to learn ALL his lessons - including the ones he's teaching her without intending to, like the ones about how to betray your co-conspirator and backstab him at just the right moment.

Edited April 9, 2015 by screamin

[Lady S.]

In terms of Tyrion, I toss and turn over whether he and Sansa would have evolved in a positive manner.   In the show I think a rapport definitely came through.   The scene in the premier of Season 4, I definitely got the impression Tyrion cared about her and was going to find some way to motivate Sansa to carry on.  Any headway they made was definitely destroyed by the Red Wedding but I thought their last real interaction was very telling.  Tyrion putting his hand over Sansa's during the Jousting Dwarfs and Sansa picking the cup up so he didn't have to crawl around and get it.

 

Not friends and I don't think I'd even call them allies but a definite understanding? Maybe.  Though it only goes so far since Sansa is more concerned with being forced to marry Robin Arynn than Tyrions execution during her "chat" with Lyssa last season.  

Sansa and Tyrion both move on quickly after her escape. Sansa doesn't want him dead but there's nothing she can do about it, so her aunt's reveal of insanity is a rather more immediate concern. Likewise, Tyrion is too consumed by his very immediate regicide issues to wonder where Sansa got off to or whether she's safe. This lack of depth in how much each really cares what happens to the other is one of the things they have most in common. Two acquaintances forced together who sometimes felt sympathy for each other, the Purple Wedding moments were nice, but I wonder how long that would have lasted even if the event ended differently. Would that have been a lasting breakthrough? I have my doubts but it certainly was a good parting note.

[Hecate7]

Tyrion spares a great deal more thought for Sansa than she ever does for him. And the book is from Tyrion AND Sansa, because they are a married couple. Any threat to one, once they are married, is also a threat to the other. While it is true that Tyrion is aware of being more of a target after the book incident, it is also true that being married to Sansa makes him much more of a target.

 

From the time he put the kibosh on the bedding, he's known Joffrey was out to get him, and out to get Sansa. He should have taken a moment to reassure Sansa, but he probably thought his drunken grandstanding spoke for itself.

 

Sansa is not in a position to have "allies." There are no allies in these books. She's got no money, no land, and now she's also got no position or rank. She cannot bargain as an equal with anyone. She used to have her marriageability. Now she doesn't even have that anymore. Nobody cares about marrying Petyr Baelish's bastard. Rolling the dice and running is the best she can do, and Littlefinger just made that worse. As Tyrion's wife, had they not been accused (thanks to Littlefinger) of regicide, Sansa would have gradually found that she had a little bargaining power. With the right people dead, she would have found herself equal to Cersei, through Tyrion. Joffrey needed killin, but it could have been done without framing Tyrion and Sansa.

 

Littlefinger did it that way in order to lay claim to Sansa on his terms. HIS terms. Not hers.

 

Tyrion screwed up because he tried to do it on Sansa's terms, when Sansa did not have the bird's eye view of the landscape that Tyrion and Littlefinger had. I want Sansa to develop that, and I think she is doing that. Her path isn't into a romantic marriage with anyone. I think in the end she will become a bit of a Queen of Thorns type, if she lasts that long. I still worry about her because of the way Lady sat still and trusted Ned as he killed her. Sansa had the sense to know she was in danger at King's Landing, but I do fear that she has a pattern of putting her trust in the wrong man. Joffrey instead of Ned, Littlefinger instead of Tyrion....and so on.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Hecate7

[screamin]

ITA that Littlefinger is not a trustworthy ally, that he's a coldblooded murderer who deliberately incriminated Sansa for regicide in order to keep her beholden to him because there's nowhere else in the country where she's safe but at his side, and that he has no intention of doing anything that might benefit her unless it also benefits his own selfish aims.

 

HOWEVER, this is Westeros. If Sansa decides to patiently wait with folded hands for a well-intentioned protector with unselfish motives who is also powerful AND competent to swoop in and rescue her, she'll be waiting a long time - or more likely, her head will end up on a spike somewhere first. Littlefinger isn't that good-hearted, unselfish protector - but honestly, Tyrion lacked the "powerful" and "competent" requirements, without which a protector is useless. (I'd also add that while his intentions WERE good, he was not entirely devoid of selfishness himself, but that's neither here nor there).

 

. As Tyrion's wife, had they not been accused (thanks to Littlefinger) of regicide, Sansa would have gradually found that she had a little bargaining power.

 

Yes, if LF hadn't framed Tyrion for regicide, Sansa would've continued to be Tyrion's wife at KL, with whatever power that brings. And if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a bus. The fact is that Tyrion made an enemy of LF (as well as many other people, all of whom joyfully got back at him at his trial) long before he married Sansa, and LF carried out a long-planned revenge on him that Sansa could have done nothing to avert and could only be damaged by if she'd decided to stick by Tyrion instead of escaping...basically, she would have ended up on trial with him for Joffrey's murder.

 

Besides, why do you think she would have "gradually" gained bargaining power if LF and all Tyrion's other enemies somehow decided to forgive him? Who would give her this bargaining power? Joffrey? Tywin? Tyrion could not. He has no power of his own to grant - all must be rubber-stamped by his superiors.

 

I still think that given the choice between unreliable protectors - Tyrion and Littlefinger - Sansa made the right choice for herself between two unsavory alternatives. Staying with Tyrion, she would've ended up in convicted of Joffrey's murder in Cersei's kangaroo court. In the Vale, Littlefinger is a calculating cold-blooded murderer with a letch for her - but he's powerful and competent, and he's allowed her a life in a place where she's not constantly threatened, where she's been granted a modicum of power and respect as the chatelaine of LF's castle, and where she's no longer marked as a traitor who is not allowed to form a relationship of trust with even a maidservant, and can therefore now form relationships and friendships of her own which may be valuable in the future. Tyrion could not have granted her any of these things.

Most importantly,

Tyrion screwed up because he tried to do it on Sansa's terms, when Sansa did not have the bird's eye view of the landscape that Tyrion and Littlefinger had.

... LF is giving her an education in the machinations of power that have damaged her in the past because she had no understanding of them. This is the most vital thing of all, because  she won't have a chance at long-trem survival unless she understands that power and how to use it to her advantage. And this is something that Tyrion could have tried to teach her but never did, for whatever reason. LF is, of course, not teaching her out of the goodness of his heart. But the knowledge is valuable just the same. I'm hoping Sansa will faithfully learn LF's techniques for finding out people's weaknesses and eventually use them against him. Yes, it's chancy and dangerous - but IMO it's the only way for Sansa to thrive and triumph in the game.

[Hecate7]

They would not have stayed in King's Landing.

 

Sansa would have gotten the same education at Casterly Rock, without having to pretend to be a bastard, without having to lose her claim to Winterfell, and without having to put out. And she'd have been at the Rock, far from King's Landing, in a house full of servants instructed to treat her with unswerving loyalty.

 

Because Tywin is busy at King's Landing being Joffrey's Hand, and Cersei is busy being regent, nobody cares what's happening at Casterly Rock. Tyrion would have been its undisputed master, at least for a time, and Sansa its lady. All they'd have had to do was lay low and wait while everyone else killed each other off. I agree that at King's Landing things were a mess, but had Sansa urged Tyrion to get her away from court things might have gone very differently.

 

Tyrion did not teach her because there was no time, and because it is very hard to teach someone who isn't responding to you. It is ironic that Sansa distrusts Tyrion so much, when he's the one who killed Tywin (as a good husband should have), and had nothing to do with the deaths of the other Starks, whereas Littlefinger still works for the Lannisters and is behind the death of Ned, and probably of Kat and Robb too. It's even more ironic that Cersei trusts Littlefinger when he's the one who killed Joffrey.

 

Then again, it's probably good for her to be a chatelaine instead of undisputed Lady, if she can survive it.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Hecate7

[Skeeter22]

I never got the impression that Tyrion had any interest in "educating" Sansa. He seems to have had little interest in the inner lives of women in general, and certainly not in the women he wanted to have sex with. He also wasn't particularly good at the game. His standard strategy involved throwing around Lannister gold and Tywin's reputation. The second he lost Tywin's backing, he was finished in King's Landing. That parade of witnesses at his trial weren't just to show how fickle politics are, but also how badly Tyrion played his cards when he did have power. He made the mistake of thinking he'd always be on top. Sansa already knows better than that.

Sansa won't find an altruistic mentor because that person doesn't exist. That's always been at the heart of her story.

[Hecate7]

I never got the impression that Tyrion had any interest in "educating" Sansa. He seems to have had little interest in the inner lives of women in general, and certainly not in the women he wanted to have sex with. He also wasn't particularly good at the game. His standard strategy involved throwing around Lannister gold and Tywin's reputation. The second he lost Tywin's backing, he was finished in King's Landing. That parade of witnesses at his trial weren't just to show how fickle politics are, but also how badly Tyrion played his cards when he did have power. He made the mistake of thinking he'd always be on top. Sansa already knows better than that.

Sansa won't find an altruistic mentor because that person doesn't exist. That's always been at the heart of her story.

He was smart enough to figure out who was talking to Cersei. He was not, IMO, smart when it came to Shae, and he was never any match for Tywin. I think he was trying to be altruistic with Sansa. If she had asked him for something, he'd have given it to her, whether it was books or dancing masters or language instructors, or something more subtle. Certainly he'd have taken her out of King's Landing if she'd asked.

 

Actually, Sansa had an altruistic mentor. Septa Mordane sacrificed herself for Sansa. Sansa didn't really treat her very well, remember?

[SeanC]

As Tyrion's wife, had they not been accused (thanks to Littlefinger) of regicide, Sansa would have gradually found that she had a little bargaining power.

Er, why?  She was a hostage-bride who was not fulfilling her one function, to be raped and produce little Lannisters.  What bargaining power would she have acquired, when everyone knows she's a powerless prisoner?

They would not have stayed in King's Landing.

Yes they would have.  Tywin showed no inclination to let them leave, and his word is law.  Tywin has no reason to send them off to the Rock so that Sansa can get an education or whatever fanciful notions.  Quite apart from the fact, of course, the Tyrion never demonstrated the slightest desire to teach Sansa how to "play the game", let alone to play against House Lannister, which would have been the only reason for her to play.  She does not want to be a loyal little cog in the Lannister machine, which is what Tyrion is at that point, and what he desires to remain.

And she'd have been at the Rock, far from King's Landing, in a house full of servants instructed to treat her with unswerving loyalty.

House Lannister's servants are loyal to House Lannister.  Sansa is a prisoner of House Lannister.  All servants would be spying on her constantly and making sure she didn't do anything she wasn't supposed to.

Actually, Sansa had an altruistic mentor. Septa Mordane sacrificed herself for Sansa. Sansa didn't really treat her very well, remember?

First, that's clearly not the context in which an altruistic mentor was mentioned (beyond which, Mordane did not teach her much of use).  You're ping-ponging between the books and the show here, but Septa Mordane did not sacrifice herself in the books, and in the books she was a useless ninny.  As well, Sansa was never rude to her in the books; that was nonsense invented by the show.

Edited April 10, 2015 by SeanC

[screamin]

Then again, it's probably good for her to be a chatelaine instead of undisputed Lady, if she can survive it.

 

 

I agree that the position of bastard chatelaine might have unsuspected advantages over the role of Lady of the Manor - especially in Sansa's case.

 

If she WERE allowed to retire with Tyrion to Casterley Rock (which I think is unlikely), it wouldn't be as undisputed Lady of the Manor. The Rock is not Tyrion's, to rule as lord; it is Tywin's. Yes, he's busy at King's Landing, but he's busy controlling the affairs of the kingdom, and he's shown himself quite capable of controlling events at a distance all over the kingdom. Casterly Rock is part of the kingdom - HIS part. IMO, his control-freak tendencies would be even more severe there. He would never allow Tyrion free rein there. He especially wouldn't allow Tyrion to grant greater freedom to Sansa. He thinks Tyrion is too easily manipulated by women, and Sansa by virtue of her Stark blood will be considered a potential traitor for the rest of her natural life. IMO, Tyrion would only be allowed at Casterly Rock as a guest on sufferance, not the Lord, and Sansa would undoubtedly have the same servant situation as in KL.

Besides, I don't think Tywin would really allow Tyrion to stay alone at Casterly Rock for more than a short visit now and then. He's sworn that he will NEVER let Tyrion have Casterly Rock, and allowing him to take possession of it for any extended period of time would make it easier for Tyrion to take it over if Tywin died unexpectedly (possession being nine-tenths of the law and all). Letting Tyrion take the reins of power at Casterly Rock and grant favors to his bannermen makes it more likely that Tyrion might eventually be able to woo away their fidelity from Tywin - and that Tywin would not allow. Besides, he wants him at KL to sort out the Crown finances - and Tywin's always been able to eventually bend Tyrion to his will. He'd probably allow Tyrion even a brief visit back to Casterley Rock only if Tyrion proved his full obedience first (say, by deflowering Sansa). So Sansa would remain in any stay at Casterly a spied-upon Lady of the Manor in name only, and she and her husband would be prone to be called back at any time at Joffrey's whim (like, say, if he decided it was about time to rape Sansa now.)

 

Compare that to being the bastard chatelaine of LF's castle. Now, it may not SEEM like an advantage to be a bastard and a glorified housekeeper in snooty Westeros. However, the condition of a bastard there can vary widely. LF has already shown (by having the singer beaten when he tries to rape Sansa) that he intends Sansa be respected and protected more than most gentlemen's bastards begetted on a swineherd or whore. Of course, as a bastard she would still be considered on a low rung on the social ladder - even more so as a housekeeper. But this can also be an advantage. Since she publically has less value as a marriage prospect, she falls under less scrutiny. At KL, as a girl with "traitor's blood" and always suspected of treachery herself, no one from lord down to servant would befriend her. Here, it's completely different. The servants and the maester are willing to talk and share valuable gossip with her as they would not dare with a Real Lady - because she's on the same level as they are. And Sansa has learned to welcome that and not disdain it. And a housekeeper has more power than you'd think.  If you've ever seen the movie Gosford Park, you'd see the longtime housekeeper knows her masters better than they know themselves and can keep an eye on everything that happens and do pretty much anything under the radar.

 

[Lady S.]

Er, why?  She was a hostage-bride who was not fulfilling her one function, to be raped and produce little Lannisters.  What bargaining power would she have acquired, when everyone knows she's a powerless prisoner?

The fact that this marriage only exists so Sansa can be raped and forced into childbearing/labor (something that appears to be even more dangerous in Westeros than in medieval times of our world), and the Lannisters can steal her brother's castle really cannot be overstated. If she ever actually got to return home as Lady of Winterfell, she'd live every day knowing Robb's horrible downfall and Bran and Rickon's "deaths" were the only reason she was there. No one would support a marriage like this with Lancel, or probably even Tommen (if he hadn't become king), what difference does it make that her husband is Tyrion when both are powerless against Tywin and Joffrey? And as Lancel was the only real Lannister alternative, I don't even see how Tyrion was that much better of a catch. Lancel was still recovering from a near-mortal wound and even if/when he re-gained the strength to consummate a marriage, what's to say he'd be more cool with raping her than Tyrion was? I may be overestimating Sansa here, but I think she could handle Ser Cersei's Chew Toy.

 

Power resides where men believe it resides and what Lannister loyalist would believe Sansa was a Lannister with power when none of the Lannisters consider her as such? The infant widow of Tyrek Lannister will probably grow up to have more power than Sansa would have if she hadn't escaped King's Landing.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Lady S.

[Hecate7]

My scenario was dependent on them going to Casterly Rock, not staying at King's Landing. I agree Sansa remains pretty powerless there.

 

Tyrion seems to think they would both be a lot safer there. True, Joffrey or Tywin could send assassins, but it would be a lot of trouble to go to, over quite a long distance.

 

No matter when Sansa returns to Winterfell, if she ever does, or in whose company, she will be reminded of the deaths of her brothers. And if she ever lays a claim, she will be aware that as a woman, she only inherits because all of her male relatives are dead. Baelish has been quite canny in destroying her entire family, and then offering himself as a substitute for them. I wonder how she will react when she learns his real part in all of this.

[Meredith Quill]

Can we confine any Sansa speculation to the S5 or book talk spec threads please.

 

Thank you.

[Advance35]

Well, Well, Lady Sansa, betrothed again I see.

 

So betrothed to Joffrey, than unofficially betrothed to Loras, than married to Tyrion, than unofficially betrothed to Robin Arryn and now betrothed to Ramsay Bolton.  I swear Sansa would rival Margaery Tyrell in terms of having the most interesting and newsworthy relationship drama.

 

I continue to love her dynamic with LF.  That was the first time we've seen Sansa lose her composure in what seems like some time.  Her screaming how she WONT marry him, how LF can't make her, how she'll starve herself.   Their relationship is repellant but so interesting to watch for me.  He treats her better than he did Roz but barely  in some ways.  Telling Roose he could inspect her?!?!?!?!?!?

 

The way she looked at Roose Bolton when she was bought forward by LF was VERY good acting.   Sansa dipping into her courtsey with a chirped/smiling "Lord Bolton".

 

It'll be interesting to see how she interacts with Ramsay.  It's clear his "friend" Myranda is going to be trouble.

 

And Roose/Ramsay/Sansa/Littlefinger also have to deal with the impending arrival of Stannis who seems like he's planning on taking them all out, though I can't imagine Stannis knows Sansa-Lannister formerly Stark is there.

 

It's why Sansa is my favorite Stark, the situations she get's into are always so juicy.

[Advance35]

Well I was the last person to comment on this thread but seeing as so much has changed for the character and the momentus milestones that have occured it's worth me updating.

 

Sansa and Margaery continue to be neck and neck in terms of Weddings.  I think I liked Sansa's wedding ensemble better than either of Margaery's and the first dress Margaery wore was gorgeous but I loved Sansa's little shawl on this one.   The Ceremony LOOKED beautfiul as well which was a nice counter to the dark act that was in actuality, occuring.

 

So it's Sansa Bolton now.   I can't believe she had a wedding night that makes her previous one look enchanting.  

 

I enjoyed her smackdown of Myranda and her demonstrated CONTEMPT of Theon/Reek.    She remains the character who's longterm storyline I am most interested in.

[Spartan Girl]

I too loved Sansa telling of Myranda and her wedding ensemble.  Too bad that shining moment was overshadowed by a horrible rape. 

 

I am guilty of hating Sansa in season 1 -- why it took her father's death to finally realize the truth about Joffrey is something I will still never understand -- but her entire life since then a has been nothing but one big punishment.  Here's hoping she still gets to kill her new husband...

[nksarmi]

I don't believe Sansa will take a life with her own hands and I have never believed she is a game player.  But I don't need everyone to play this damn game - I'd be perfectly fine cheering for a nice, good person who just wants to rule their little segment of the world and be good to their people.  I think Sansa could become this in Winterfell and if she does - I could finally learn to like her.

 

I couldn't stand her loyalty to Geoffrey early on, her treatment of her sister, and frankly, what I perceive as being foolish with the gift she was essentially given in Tyrion.  Yes, she would have been even better off with Loras and High garden, but it was made clear very early that Tyrion would have done well by her.  She could have asked to have her homeland returned to her, Tyrion could have gone to his father and said "leave Bolton as Warden of the North if you like, but I want to rule Winterfell with my wife, please do this for me" and I think Tywin would have done it.  Oh how differently this story would have gone if Tyrion, Sansa, and Shea had left King's Landing for Winterfell (with Lannister troops in case Bolton gave them any shit) before Geoffrey was murdered.  I would love to see how that AU would have played out.

 

But now - even though I have never liked Sansa - I find myself hoping that she will come out on top somehow.  I want Stannis to win, I want Sansa to survive, I want Arya's direwolf to find Sansa and be loyal to her, I want Sansa to turn on Littlefinger, I want her to turn into someone who actually DOES avenge all the awful things that have happened to her family.  Come on show - turn the weak one into the one who will come out on top at the end!

[Advance35]

I think when Sansa married Tyrion she was installed at the bottom of the Lannister Latter.  Tywin had know problem letting Tyrion take the fall for a murder I'm sure he knew Tyrion didn't commit.   I don't think Sansa's fate mattered to him either.  Had Cersei NOT accused Tyrion/Sansa of regicide I think maybe Sansa would have made it to Winterfell someday IF the Lannisters didn't have her murdered after she produced an heir.

 

My hope is that Sansa gets to outlive everyone.   Tywin, Joffrey, Ned, Catelyn, Robb, Lyssa all died horrible deaths so Sansa's ahead of the Game IMO.     I also don't think she's too far removed from Margaery.   Margaery has the benefit of having Olenna on her side but other than that and the occasional catty comment I don't think the Rose of Highgarden is terribly impressive comparitately.   She pretty much "yes'd" and "your graced" Joffrey which is what Sansa was doing until Arya ruined it.   And now Sansa operates from a place of subservience because House Stark is all but finished due to the defeat of the Northern Army and poor/inept political manuevering by Robb and Catelyn.

 

Sansa is forced to try and spin straw into gold.   If I were her I think I would stick with LF.   He's a monster but a successful one

[Lady S.]

but it was made clear very early that Tyrion would have done well by her.  She could have asked to have her homeland returned to her, Tyrion could have gone to his father and said "leave Bolton as Warden of the North if you like, but I want to rule Winterfell with my wife, please do this for me" and I think Tywin would have done it.  

Wow, as Tyrion once said to Cersei, if he could manipulate their father he'd be emperor of the world by now. If he could be assertive to Tywin before his murder trial, he wouldn't have married Sansa in the first place since he kept whining about not wanting to do it. Tywin never wanted Tyrion to be happy so he'd never be inclined to just do him a favor. And the last time they talked before Sansa's escape, he was hounding Tyrion about not raping her, so he sure as shit wasn't going to let them leave court without that happening. I doubt Tywin even cared about a Lannister in Winterfell, he only wanted to put a ring on Sansa to stop the Tyrells from doing so and becoming more powerful, and he was probably also trying to just distract Tyrion from Casterly Rock with Winterfell. He first mentioned finding Tyrion a suitable wife in that delightful scene where he called his rightful heir "an ill-made, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning." If he wanted Tyrion to have a happy marriage he could have arranged one for him years ago, but I doubt he wanted to risk dwarf grandchildren before then. If Sansa had a son that looked like Tyrion, he could just let them use the name Stark so there wouldn't be another "waddling" Lannister. And if Sansa died in childbirth from the forced sex and forced childbearing Tywin wanted from her, that'd be no real loss. And even if the baby died with her, the Boltons having Winterfell would still be better than the Tyrells. Tywin didn't even care about Tyrion's life, not when Tyrion returned from the Eyrie when they all thought he was dead, not when Tywin sent him to the battle frontlines soon after he arrived in their camp, not when Tyrion was nearly killed during Blackwater, and not when Cersei accused Tyrion of regicide. 

 

I wonder if Sansa is supposed to have made that pretty dress which Ramsay ripped.

[Ambrosefolly]

I pulled this off a blog, and this comment is my own view

While I completely disagree with your view of the Sansa Stark character (to me she seems like a weak child, completely dependent upon her looks. Her younger sister, Arya seems a much stronger character) I agree she wasn’t actually raped. Instead the scene at issue involved consensual sex with an insensitive maniac. Sansa began to undress herself and lay down on the bed. The horror of the scene comes from the cruelty of Ramsey in roughly taking his virgin wife in front of Theon. But, it was not a rape Sansa fully expected to have sex with her husband and consented to his treatment when she undressed and laid down on the bed

 

Manosphere is mocking of people being horrified about what happened to Sansa, even though the sexual, physical and mental abuse of Theon was worse and they seem to think it is because they think it is people's lack of empathy towards men's suffering vs women's suffering, but disagree with that line of thinking. To me it isn't just the rape, it is Sansa just can't seem to catch a break. Sansa's worst crime was being a bratty teen (almost pre teen) girl, and learning that her childish fantasies were a lie a week too late. Theon on the other hand not only betrayed the Starks by using information he had on them because he lived with them so long, he butchered two innocent children and burned their bodies to cover his fuck ups, which led to the murders of the elderly couple that were fostering them. It doesn't matter how good of an actor Alfie Allen is, Theon isn't going to get much sympathy after that. 

 

In the end, I think the storyline will be that Ramsay well not be able to wear away Sansa's will like he did with Theon, and he will only learn that before hammer falls on him. 

[nksarmi]

Wow, as Tyrion once said to Cersei, if he could manipulate their father he'd be emperor of the world by now. If he could be assertive to Tywin before his murder trial, he wouldn't have married Sansa in the first place since he kept whining about not wanting to do it. Tywin never wanted Tyrion to be happy so he'd never be inclined to just do him a favor. And the last time they talked before Sansa's escape, he was hounding Tyrion about not raping her, so he sure as shit wasn't going to let them leave court without that happening. I doubt Tywin even cared about a Lannister in Winterfell, he only wanted to put a ring on Sansa to stop the Tyrells from doing so and becoming more powerful, and he was probably also trying to just distract Tyrion from Casterly Rock with Winterfell. He first mentioned finding Tyrion a suitable wife in that delightful scene where he called his rightful heir "an ill-made, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning." If he wanted Tyrion to have a happy marriage he could have arranged one for him years ago, but I doubt he wanted to risk dwarf grandchildren before then. If Sansa had a son that looked like Tyrion, he could just let them use the name Stark so there wouldn't be another "waddling" Lannister. And if Sansa died in childbirth from the forced sex and forced childbearing Tywin wanted from her, that'd be no real loss. And even if the baby died with her, the Boltons having Winterfell would still be better than the Tyrells. Tywin didn't even care about Tyrion's life, not when Tyrion returned from the Eyrie when they all thought he was dead, not when Tywin sent him to the battle frontlines soon after he arrived in their camp, not when Tyrion was nearly killed during Blackwater, and not when Cersei accused Tyrion of regicide. 

 

I wonder if Sansa is supposed to have made that pretty dress which Ramsay ripped.

I don't think Tyrion could have manipulated his father - I simply think he could have made the request and Tywin likely would have granted it.  Yes, Tywin doesn't particularly care for Tyrion, but Tyrion was still a Lannister and he could still benefit Tywin's overall legacy.  If Tywin established a Lannister in Winterfell, he could eventually have a Lannister rule the North.  If Lannisters rule in both Casterly Rock and the North, the likelihood that future kings and queens would bare the Lannister name rather than the Barratheon name starts to become more and more possible.  I'm not saying Tywin would have done it because he loved his son, but because he could see the advantage of saying yes.

[Advance35]

Sansa is exactly the kind of character I'd expect to be the little black dress of fandom - with a few modifications, you can make her work in every situation/ship.

 

Very interesting statement posted on the Unpopular opinion thread.   "Little Black Dress" seems to sum up Sansa's status throughout fandom perfectly.  I am not BIG on Fan Fiction due to limited time but when I've poked around Sansa has BY FAR the most number of stories.   More than touted popular characters like Dany and Arya.   There are quite a few for Sandor, Tyrion and even LF but there are also numerous for Jon, Oberyn, Various Tyrells, Jaimie Lannister  and the authors are quite widely varied as well.  It all makes me wonder if Sansa can be considered an unpopular character or if she just has loud detractors.

 

Other than the main horror of what happened with Sansa in the latest episode, I have to say I felt very fearful for Sansa when Littlefinger told Cersei where Sansa was.   I can't shake that it happened for a reason.   Cersei is a little to occupied with the Tyrells to focus on getting her talons on Sansa now but at some point she does plan to see that the Stark loose end is tied up.  

 

Could she run back to House Arryn/The Vale for refuge.   And it makes me wonder if Baelish really does have any feeling for her at all.  I think he was initially drawn to her because of  his past with Catelyn BUT I think he has come to see Sansa as Sansa herself.   It's like he's grooming her to be exactly what he wants.....but than he goes and feeds her to Cersei.

 

I know she is blasted for being a passive character sometimes but she has such a rich dynamic and relationship with so many characters I cant picture this series without her.   Joffrey, Cersei, Tyrion, Shae, Olenna, Margaery, Loras, Robin Arryn, Littlefinger, Ramsay, Roose, Theon.   Has she had the most on screen cast interaction out of everyone?

[Hecate7]

He may be baiting a trap for Cersei with his offer of Sansa.

[Ambrosefolly]

He may be baiting a trap for Cersei with his offer of Sansa.

I think that is exactly what he is doing.A poster had it right that he wants to pit the Lannister army against the Bolton forces to further weaken them (topped off with Stannis marching towards Winterfell). He likes to gamble big if he thinks it could possibility get him greater power. I think he hopes or is counting on both Roose and Ramsey biting it and Stannis giving Sansa dominion over the North, where he can rule through her like he rules the Vale through Robin Arynn.

[Lady S.]

I don't think Tyrion could have manipulated his father - I simply think he could have made the request and Tywin likely would have granted it.  Yes, Tywin doesn't particularly care for Tyrion, but Tyrion was still a Lannister and he could still benefit Tywin's overall legacy.  If Tywin established a Lannister in Winterfell, he could eventually have a Lannister rule the North.  If Lannisters rule in both Casterly Rock and the North, the likelihood that future kings and queens would bare the Lannister name rather than the Barratheon name starts to become more and more possible.  I'm not saying Tywin would have done it because he loved his son, but because he could see the advantage of saying yes.

And Tyrion could only establish a Lannister in Winterfell if he changed his mind about knocking up Sansa before she was ready. And do you really think a Lannister Lord of Winterfell would be more accepted than a Bolton one? I think Tyrion going there would be suicidal, which is probably why he only tried to make use of Sansa's claim as a persuader for Bronn when his life was already on the line. Cersei knew that no Lannister could hold the North way back in 1.03, so that's part of why I doubt Tywin really cared about establishing a cadet branch in Winterfell, Sansa's claim to Riverrun would be the far safer option, but Tyrion getting killed in the North probably wouldn't faze Tywin any more than losing him in battle. And since Tywin partially hates Tyrion for killing Lady Lannister, I think any happy marriage for Tyrion could never be an advantage for him, and I don't he ever wanted a line of dwarf grandchildren to be part of his golden legacy, since that was Tyrion's other big crime. Tywin has a pattern of extreme irrationality when it comes to Tyrion where he refuses to acknowledge Tyrion's usefulness. And Tyrion's pattern is blind obedience out of fear when it comes to Tywin, asking for Casterly Rock was probably one of the few times he politely asked his father for anything, and why would he try it again after the response he got? He also never mentioned the very vital fact that Joffrey tried to have him killed during battle and threatened Sansa with rape at every opportunity, and then Tywin proved he didn't care about protecting either from Joffrey by sitting back and saying nothing during the Purple Wedding.

 

 

I think that is exactly what he is doing.A poster had it right that he wants to pit the Lannister army against the Bolton forces to further weaken them (topped off with Stannis marching towards Winterfell). He likes to gamble big if he thinks it could possibility get him greater power. I think he hopes or is counting on both Roose and Ramsey biting it and Stannis giving Sansa dominion over the North, where he can rule through her like he rules the Vale through Robin Arynn.

Oh, I think the only genuine part of LF's plan to Cersei was that he wants to take out either Stannis or Roose after their battle. Why should he want to ally with Stannis instead of removing all his rivals? And why should Stannis ally with him instead of marrying Sansa to one of his own men or delivering her to Jon Snow? LF was firmly against Stannis when Renly was alive, and he actually reached out to Renly in s2, which he should be doing now to Stannis if he actually wants to join Team Dragonstone. But when has LF ever wanted to serve anybody but himself?

Edited May 22, 2015 by Lady S.

[Elkins]

Fanfic writers love Sansa because fanfic writers love fiction. They love stories and they love free artistic expression; they love to imagine and to fantasize, and then to use those things to better tailor creative works to their own needs. That is why they are writing fanfic in the first place. And the only character in the series who shows a really strong interest in stories and in imagination and in creating art is Sansa. Furthermore, once you get away from the books and into the show-only material, this connection is made even stronger. Show!Sansa is all about the art of fiction.
 

I want to think that when she was making-up stories about the ships she was watching it was her way of acknowledging, consciously or not, that she needed to up her game.

That's one of my favorite scenes in the show so far for a number of reasons, one of which is that I tend to view it as the writers tipping their hand as to how they were going to be framing Sansa's story (which is rather different, IMO, than how Martin approaches Sansa's character in the books).

Show!Sansa seems to me to be all about the tension between truth and lies, and ultimately about the synthesis of these two seeming-opposites: fiction. Fiction is the synthesis that resolves the truth/lie opposition. Stories are how we tell the truth by telling lies.

All the way back in the second episode, when asked what really happened with Arya and Myca and Joffrey and Nymeria, Sansa tried to thread the needle by abstaining from either telling the truth or telling the Queen's desired lie; instead, she simply claimed ignorance. Lots of viewers hated her for that, and some people seemed to think that Sansa's story would therefore be about learning to become truthful or honest, or something like that.

 

I don't see it that way at all. As I see it, Sansa's story is all about learning to become a more productive liar, learning how to leverage her powerful imagination and her affinity for songs and stories and tales -- for fiction -- into creative power that she can master, control and direct towards her own ends. In effect, it's all about her evolution from passive Reader (Sansa loves songs and stories, but she is a passive consumer of them: she believes in them without ever either examining their construction or questioning their underlying agenda) to active Author (Sansa learns to create useful fictions of her own, and to manipulate the stuff of fantasy in ways that advance her own agenda).

The problem with Sansa's "I don't remember" wasn't really that it was a lie. It was that it was a poor lie, not so much because it was unconvincing, but because it advanced nobody's agenda and did no one any good. The woman that I believe Sansa is learning how to become probably wouldn't have told the truth there either, but she would have constructed a better story, a useful fiction that might have prevented anyone from being punished for the incident while still allowing all involved parties -- most importantly the Lannisters -- to save face.

"The truth," said Sansa, "is always either terrible or boring." But that was a while ago. Now, when she sees a snowy courtyard, she transforms it into a fantasy Winterfell drawn from her imagination. She brings the stuff of her fantasies to life in the material world, and that is how we know that she is entering a new stage in her development.

Even Sansa herself seems to realize that this is the pivot on which her story swivels. "I'm a terrible liar," she keeps repeating, earnestly, to anyone who will listen. "Everybody says so."

[Holmbo]

That's a great forecast for sansa's overall arc. I like it because it gives her a unique speciality none of the other players have. Cersei is probably the one coming closest to using something similar but with her it's more that she twists the truth to whatever she wants it to be at that moment.

[Advance35]

It's still hard to believe Sansa Stark is a married woman.   And too HIM of all people but I can't say I'm not glued to my seat to see how all of this goes.    So Ramsay has been coming to Sansa "Every Night", I bet that sits well with his bench wench Myranda.

 

I said this in the episode thread, I didn't initially believe it but now I really do kind of think that LF was right and Ramsay is smitten with Sansa.    He's a savage and a psychopath but he has a picture of him as A Warden of the North with Sansa as his Lady/Wardeness.   He likes that she's pretty and wants the continued use of her body, hopefully this will all lead to his downfall or at least allow Sansa to tip over the first domino.

 

I'm on pins and needles everytime Sansa and Ramsay are on the screen.  I couldn't believe she taunted him with his bastard status, TWICE.

[Pete Martell]

I can't believe the show is basically selling the idea that she's empowered because she occasionally talks back to the man who beats and rapes her on a daily basis. Or that the show is so committed to faux-empowerment that they need to play shell games by having Reek "betray" her, and put the heat on what a terrible person he is and how she should make him pay, and so on and so forth, to distract from Sansa spending yet another season being victimized. They are so crass that the only way they can sell a "strong" Sansa is on the back of another abuse victim.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Pete Martell

[Advance35]

Sigh.  One person's Tamato is another one's Tomato.

[Pete Martell]

I just wish the show could figure out what they want the proper pronunciation to even be...

[Funzlerks]

Victims never have a say in whether they are victims, in my opinion. But a charcter can be a weak person who is a victim or a strong person who is a victim. People don't choose to be victims but they choose what to do afterward. I cannot see how given that the show runners wanted Sansa in Winterfell sooner, they had to have Ramsay and Sansa marry. And Ramsay not consummating the marriage very quickly makes no sense. And I am somewhat relieved that the show depicted marital rape as horrifying and not something Sansa signed on for. I think empowerment has lost so much specific meaning, but I do believe Sansa is behaving as strong as she can. She is utilizing what she has in front of her, isn't giving up, and isn't letting Ramsay see how terrified she is when she can help it. If she makes it out alive, I think she is owed the credit for surviving and making choices that kept her going.

[Pete Martell]

The problem for me is I've never seen Sansa have the choice. Even now, her "empowerment" is to make digs at Ramsay when he isn't beating or raping her. She has no other options. And if or when she is rescued, or escapes, it's "strength" in getting away from scenario #320 where she is victimized. I feel like the show is only willing to paint her as strong if it's within the context of which man is manipulating or violating her. It's a very punishing role for a woman, not helped by the implications in the writing over the years that she deserves it. The messiness of it all is making Sansa a less and less believable character for me, because of the lack of honesty in the writing. I'm starting to feel like D&D just see Sansa and imagine how prettily she cries and suffers and anything beyond that is a few scraps. This has gone on so long that when we do see her move into something stronger, I'm not sure I can believe it.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Pete Martell

[Advance35]

She is utilizing what she has in front of her, isn't giving up, and isn't letting Ramsay see how terrified she is when she can help it. If she makes it out alive, I think she is owed the credit for surviving and making choices that kept her going.

 

 

Perfectly summed up.  I find Sansa compelling, especially this season because she has so much to overcome.   I think she's got two motivations, survival and revenge, the first is much more important to her so keeping her head on her is always going to take precedence.     Sometimes people's ideas don't work and they get caught in their own web, or whatever they were trying to spin, it's happened to all of the high rolling plotters, Cersei, Olenna, Margaery, each has had their own actions and idea's put them in precarious situations.   She doesn't have dragons, a powerful family or an aptitude for being a magical assassin.

 

Her's is one of the most realistic or down to earth characterizations I've seen in this series.   She doesn't have it easy and she's not a Mary Sue, unlike some other prominent characters in my view.

 

As has been said elsewhere if I don't see peril or danger, if someone just coast along plotting and flawlessly adapting, I lose investment in their journey.  LF and Varys while entertaining characters, only interest me in terms of the people they interact with or plot against.    Sansa as a character genuinely interest me and has proven herself to be inwardly, a strong individual.

[nksarmi]

I actually find Sansa more interesting this season than ever before.  I posted a lengthy reason why in the UO thread, but I will simplify it here.  To me, Sansa now represents the Starks.  Yes, she is the Starks in how they are being abused, but by god, she is also the Starks in how she is the hope of the North.  We want her to overcome this evil imp and triumph.  I am more invested in Theon, Stannis, and Brie because it is Sansa Stark in Winterfell.  I might have always wanted Stannis to prevail, but now I want him to do so because a Stark is in Winterfell ready to reclaim her family legacy.  I spend every episode begging Theon to tell her that Rickon and Bran are alive.  I wait for the moment when Brie can do something - anything - to help Sansa.  Hell, I even imagine ways that Arya's wolf can find her way to Sansa and they can reunite.  I am relatively confident the writers would not have put Sansa in Winterfell if she wasn't meant to represent a "win" for the audience when certain evil men finally get their comeuppance.

[Bats27]

No not really.  They've bungled her character BADLY this season.

 

1. The justification for her even being their in the first place made no freaking sense on multiple levels. 

 

2. They didn't need to resort to rape in order "empower" her.  It's just a rehash of what we've already seen with her before (only with a penis involved this time).  Seriously, a character who's entire story for 4+ seasons has been about being abused/humiliated/threatened/etc by multiple characters, and this is the best that they show can come up with now?  Wow, real freaking original writers, way to not repeat yourself and do something different.

 

3. They cannot even get her "strong moments" right.  So you have the sadistic psychopath who's holding you captive, has you completely at his mercy, and has been raping/torturing you nightly for weeks, and you're big response is to insult him to his face?  Sorry but that doesn't make her look "strong," it makes her look like an idiot (as did her trusting Theon, and this entire plotline).

 

4.  Writers, these characters are NOT INTERCHANGABLE!!  They're different, with different arcs/purposes.  Sansa is NOT Jeyne Pool and Ellaria Sands is NOT Arianne Martell.  The fact that you feel like you can just cut and paste them is both lame and has backfired badly.  And it really is a shame because Sophie Turner is REALLY good.  I just wish that she'd been given something more interesting/less cliché to do this season.

[Advance35]

No not really.  They've bungled her character BADLY this season.

 

Subjectively.  In all honesty I've never seen so much interest taken in the Sansa Stark Character.   And it's not just the controversey.   Before Episode 6 people were super curious about what would happen with her next.   Roose, Ramsay, Sansa, Myranda, Walda Frey, Theon/Reek with pending arrivals of Stannis, Selyse, Davos, Melisandre.   Most consider it a power keg and can't wait til things completely explode.

 

2. They didn't need to resort to rape in order "empower" her.  It's just a rehash of what we've already seen with her before (only with a penis involved this time).  Seriously, a character who's entire story for 4+ seasons has been about being abused/humiliated/threatened/etc by multiple characters, and this is the best that they show can come up with now?  Wow, real freaking original writers, way to not repeat yourself and do something different.

 

I think Martin is filled with rehashes than.   Danerys in my view has done, not a damn thing, for the past 3 books but rule badly in a land that ultimately doesn't matter to a majority of the cast.   Arya has wandered around since book 1.  The list could go on.   Perception is everything I guess.    I liked seeing how a girl from a prominent family fares in Court when said family falls from grace.   GRRM had her abused MUCH more in CoK, I wonder how GRRM missed that.   To say nothing of the Sandor Clegane Blackwater scene.   In season 3 I thought Sansa made a valiant effort to assimilate into Camp Tyrell.   LF and Tywin pulled the rug out from under her.   If there is one thing Sansa's story is not IMO, it's montonous. 

 

I am relatively confident the writers would not have put Sansa in Winterfell if she wasn't meant to represent a "win" for the audience when certain evil men finally get their comeuppance.

 

I think she'll outlive Roose and Ramsay, but I don't know if I see her surviving the whole saga.  I hope so but she's in the North where a certain Wall seems like it's going to give way to an enemy that no amount of politics can detour and if she goes south, there is a nasty charge of regicide waiting for her.   Though I guess that depends on who's holding the Throne at the time.   My favorite Sansa periods have been Seasons 3, 4 and currently 5.   It's a borderline cliffhanger with her and figuring out what's going to happen with her next.   3 Seasons ago could you have imagined Sansa back in the North, wanted for Regicide, covering up the murder of Lyssa Arryn, former wife of Tyrion Lannister and currently married to Ramsay Bolton?   This girl gets the most plot twist than half the cast of characters put together.  It's awesome.

[screamin]

1. The justification for her even being their in the first place made no freaking sense on multiple levels.

 

 

That's for darn sure. The more I think about it, the more it falls apart. LF tells Cersei that the Boltons have Sansa, to turn Cersei against the Boltons. She takes his word for it that it's true. If she's willing to take LF's word for it, why does he actually need to physically deliver Sansa to the Boltons instead of just lying about it? Is he afraid Cersei has a spy on the spot at Winterfell to confirm what he says? But if Cersei HAS a spy at Winterfell, she'd also know that LF delivered Sansa to the Boltons himself, and she'd have LF's head off as a traitor then and there. Makes no flippin' sense.

 

And his grand plan is to get authorization from King Tommen to take an army from the Vale and defeat whoever the weakened victor is in the Bolton/Baratheon battle? But surely he's aware that Cersei's about to fall into the hands of the High Sparrow, who will do his level best to air ALL her dirty laundry - including the possibility that Tommen's a bastard and therefore no King at all. So he took the risk of going to KL to get an authorization from a King which may soon be as worthless as the parchment it's written on...and he's getting that authorization in order to march out to war (which he's freely admitted he has no talent for) when the winter setting in makes it likely that whatever manor they wind up in when the snow flies is where they'll be wintering - regardless of whether that manor has food enough for an army to winter in.

 

Makes no flippin' sense.