Sansa Stark: A Direwolf In Sheep's Clothing?

[anamika]

@Eyes High has mentioned this before, but I think we can use the narrative to understand how GRRM sees the actions of some of these characters. 

Sansa thinks less of Jon because he's a bastard and is distant towards him, unlike the rest of his siblings. 5 books later...

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He was only her half brother, but still… with Robb and Bran and Rickon dead, Jon Snow was the only brother that remained to her. I am a bastard too now, just like him. Oh, it would be so sweet, to see him once again.

Sansa sides against her father and sister, the Starks and supports Joffrey and the Lannisters in the incident at the Trident. She immediately loses her direwolf - a symbol of the Starks.

Jeyne Poole calls Arya horseface and ugly and makes fun of her appearance. The last we see of Jeyne, she's been forced to impersonate Arya and lost half her nose to frost bite.

Bran dreams of being a knight and Jaime selfishly cripples Bran to cover up his adultery. A couple of books later and Jaime too is a cripple and no longer one of the best fighters of Westeros.

Theon betrays Robb, Bran and Rickon due to his inner conflict about his Stark-Greyjoy identity. He now no longer even has an identity. He is Reek.

That's why all these queen Sansa narratives or even Sansa as Lady of Winterfell does not make much sense to me. After this:

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“Go ahead, call me all the names you want,” Sansa said airily. “You won’t dare when I’m married to Joffrey. You’ll have to bow to me and call me Your Grace.”

There's no way GRRM is going to end the books with Arya taking orders from Sansa.

Edited February 2, 2019 by anamika

[Eyes High]

5 hours ago, anamika said:

And as pointed out above, does Sansa have moments of kindness? Yes. As does every single character in the books, except for Joffrey, Ramsay and the Mountain.

 

This is really all that needs to be said. If Sansa is kind, compassionate, and "deeply empathetic," then no one is. Even GRRM's "villains" have moments of kindness, but no one's falling all over themselves to call, say, Jaime "deeply empathetic" because he eventually realized that Brienne deserved his respect, he kind of felt sorry for Tommen, and he was nice to Pia the one time. Why? Because we all know that Jaime's still at his core the same asshole who shoved Bran out a window and never really felt bad about it.

Likewise, Sansa is still at her core the same asshole who bullied Arya for years and treated Jon like garbage for years and never once paused to consider how it made them feel, reflected on it or felt bad about it, even when confronted with Joffrey threatening her (far superior, in her estimation) "sister" Margaery in ASOS or when forced to masquerade as a bastard herself (which bizarrely leads her not once to think of Jon, her brother, until he is mentioned to her). She does the occasional nice thing, and has the occasional twinge of human feeling, which we can say of pretty much every single character who isn't Joffrey, Ramsay or the Mountain, even the "villains" like Jaime and Tyrion, but she's still that asshole. 

As fandom lies go, this false notion that Sansa is incredibly kind and empathetic, or even kind and empathetic at all, right up there with the ridiculous claim that Sansa, a bully, a snob, and a self-centered person with an established history of treating Jon and Arya like garbage for years because they dared to fail to measure up to her standards by being a bastard and unladylike and plain (respectively), is only disliked because people don't like feminine women.

Edited February 2, 2019 by Eyes High

[merrick715]

I'm not saying Sansa and Jon had a close sibling bond, and I do think she was his least favorite sibling, but that doesn't mean he didn't love her. How do you explain Jon telling Stannis that Winterfell belongs to my sister Sansa? He refuses Stannis's offer of giving him the last name Stark and making him Lord of Winterfell. To add some extra context to Sansa saying Jon's jealous of Joffrey, Myrcella is in the room sewing with Sansa and Arya. Perhaps that wasn't the best place to disparage Joffrey right in front of his sister.

 

3 hours ago, anamika said:

Sansa sides against her father and sister, the Starks and supports Joffrey and the Lannisters in the incident at the Trident. She immediately loses her direwolf - a symbol of the Starks.

Jeyne Poole calls Arya horseface and ugly and makes fun of her appearance. The last we see of Jeyne, she's been forced to impersonate Arya and lost half her nose to frost bite.

Bran dreams of being a knight and Jaime selfishly cripples Bran to cover up his adultery. A couple of books later and Jaime too is a cripple and no longer one of the best fighters of Westeros.

Theon betrays Robb, Bran and Rickon due to his inner conflict about his Stark-Greyjoy identity. He now no longer even has an identity. He is Reek.

That's why all all these queen Sansa narratives or even Sansa as Lady of Winterfell does not make much sense to me. After this: 

There's no way GRRM is going to end the books with Arya taking orders from Sansa.

6

First, Sansa tells Ned the truth about what happened on the Trident. Ned is the one who put Sansa in a position where she had to choose between backing up Joffrey or Arya's account of what happened on the Trident, and in the end, she chose neither. She remains neutral, and Ned even tells Arya the reason she did that. Since women Westeros belong to their father, until they marry, and then they belong to their husbands. Humiliating your future husband/owner, in front of the court, doesn't strike me as something that will help build a successful marriage.

 

So Martin's whole philosophy boils down to girls like Jeyne and Sansa need to know their place.  That's repulsive. Shouldn't the punishment fit the crime? How does being a bully even compare to being repeatedly raped?

[Eyes High]

16 minutes ago, merrick715 said:

So Martin's whole philosophy boils down to girls like Jeyne and Sansa need to know their place.  

I wouldn't call it a philosophy, but a definite theme is "karma's a bitch," and as @anamika pointed out, it applies to male characters as well as female, and it gets oddly specific in terms of the punishments. We've seen how Jeyne was paid out (mocked Arya for her looks, was forced to impersonate Arya and lost her own looks to frostbite), how Jorah was paid out (was a slaver, got enslaved), how Catelyn was paid out (treats Jon like garbage, dies knowing that Jon will inherit instead of her children as she feared), and how Jaime was paid out (crippled Bran and took away the activity he loved most, got crippled himself and lost the activity he enjoyed most).

How will Sansa be paid out? We may not yet know the answer with respect to her bullying of Arya. With respect to her treatment of Jon, it seems to have been paid out by having Sansa masquerade as a bastard and deal with being treated the way Jon himself was treated by her, although given that as of AFFC Sansa still thinks of Jon as running a distant second to her "real" brothers, she still hasn't learned the lesson.

Edited February 2, 2019 by Eyes High

[merrick715]

20 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I wouldn't call it a philosophy, but a definite theme is "karma's a bitch," and as @anamika pointed out, it applies to male characters as well as female. We've seen how Jeyne was paid out, how Jorah was paid out, and how Jaime was paid out. How will Sansa be paid out? We may not yet know the answer.

Being abused physically, emotionally, and sexually isn't enough?  I guess she must marry one of the unattractive older guys who creep on her in the book before she is redeemed enough. How do you view show Sansa reaching under the table to help Tyrion retrieve the cup that Joffrey kicked? She is the only one at that high table who did anything when Joffrey was humiliating Tyrion, and that happened after she was forced to watch Joffrey's play that denigrates Robb's death.

Edited February 3, 2019 by merrick715

[Eyes High]

10 minutes ago, merrick715 said:

Being abused physically, emotionally, and sexually abused isn't enough?  I guess she must marry one of the unattractive older guys who creep on her in the book before she is redeemed enough. How do you view show Sansa reaching under the table to help Tyrion retrieve the cup that Joffrey kicked? She is the only one at that high table who did anything when Joffrey was humiliating Tyrion, and that happened after she was forced to watch Joffrey's play that denigrates Robb's death.

Catelyn showed Brienne compassion as well. Catelyn still died a horrible death, watching her firstborn son die in front of her, believing her children are all dead or good as dead, and knowing that the boy she loathed and mistreated for so many years would inherit everything as she had once dreaded. That's a very specific karmic punishment in relation to what she did to Jon, and her sweet friendship with Brienne and all her various moments of compassion along the way didn't spare her. Catelyn still had the worst possible death she could have had. Karma's a bitch.

So if that's the punishment GRRM arranged for Catelyn for mistreating Jon, and if disfigurement and forced impersonation of Arya was the punishment GRRM arranged for Jeyne, what does he have in store for Sansa as a punishment specifically related to how she treated Arya? We already have the forced impersonation of a bastard part for her treatment of Jon. The punishment for her treatment of Arya is TBD.

Edited February 2, 2019 by Eyes High

[Advance35]

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Being abused physically, emotionally, and sexually abused isn't enough?  I guess she must marry one of the unattractive older guys who creep on her in the book before she is redeemed enough. How do you view show Sansa reaching under the table to help Tyrion retrieve the cup that Joffrey kicked? She is the only one at that high table who did anything when Joffrey was humiliating Tyrion, and that happened after she was forced to watch Joffrey's play that denigrates Robb's death.

I wonder about GRRM.  I honestly think Sansa has nothing to answer for.  She wasn't overly friendly to Jon out of loyalty to her mother and the propriety she was raised to adhere to.   Arya was (and still is IMO) a loathsome toad.   She was clearly a child allowed to misbehave and she eventually did so with a group (The Lannisters) who didn't find her to be a lovable scamp.  Hence the fuse that lit Joffrey's enmity towards House Stark.   I always thought Sansa was put in a horrible position with that trident business.  Publicly side against the Crown Prince you've been betrothed too? Tsk. Tsk. Bad president.

From what I recall of their childhood (certainly on the show) Arya gave as good as she got.

[screamin]

6 hours ago, anamika said:

One, Sansa instinctively speaks and thinks she is going to get beaten for it, not killed. And two, the Hound once again steps in to deflect Joffrey's attention from Sansa and helps her.

And as pointed out above, does Sansa have moments of kindness? Yes. As does every single character in the books, except for Joffrey, Ramsay and the Mountain.

This entire discussion is about whether or not Sansa has empathy, with some taking the position she is uncommonly low in it, if not entirely void of it. Empathy is the ability to understand and sympathize with the feelings of another. You downgrade Sansa's impulse to help Dontos by calling it 'instinctive', as if it was the result of a mindless reflex that ALL humans have and that therefore Sansa shouldn't be given credit for it. But the fact is that human beings as a species do not all have an instinct to help others. Some people react that way; some don't. The difference in reaction is empathy. It's instinctive in Sansa in your own words, so thanks for that concession.

As for your first point: I don't think "He would make her bleed for this" is an indication that Sansa knows for a fact that Joffrey won't kill her for publically contradicting and lying to him, and that therefore her rescue of Dontos is NBD. Firstly, a flogging hard enough to make someone bleed CAN kill a person. Secondly, you can't be sure Sansa's only thinking Joffrey will flog her - he's talking to her about killing her, as you kindly quoted for us:

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“I ought to drown you with him, if you care for him so much.”

Remember the last person that Joffrey made bleed in front of her? Who bled, in fact, in torrents? Ned. Joffrey ordered him killed against his own best interests, and breaking all the careful agreements made to keep his kingdom from war, on his own sadistic impulse - and his order was obeyed. Why in the world should Sansa assume he wouldn't do the same thing to her, who is far less important in the scheme of things than her father was? As for saying that what Sansa did doesn't count because the Hound intervened - are you saying she KNEW the Hound would step in and back up her lie, and so she KNEW she was safe in trying to intervene to save Dontos and lie to the king, and therefore her doing so is nothing that shows anything like empathy? Nothing in the text shows she thought any such thing. And the fact that the Hound intervened and defused the situation does not rewind time and magically make the fear she felt and the risk she took things that didn't happen - and therefore a mere 'kindness" that is nothing particularly meritorious, and done for no reason - especially not empathy.

6 hours ago, anamika said:

How is Sansa abso-lutely-fuking right here? Jon is indeed bitter that he is an outcast among his family and made to sit separately. Are you saying that Jon was jealous of the crown prince because he was a bastard?

No, dear. What Sansa said was this:

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Sansa sighed as she stitched. “Poor Jon,” she said. “He gets jealous because he’s a bastard.”

And she didn't say it in response to Arya quoting any of the absolutely truthful things you quoted Jon saying about Joffrey's character (IIRC, he hadn't said them yet). She said it in response to an insult that Jon made about Joffrey's appearance, which reveals nothing about his character, but does reveal that Jon isn't above taking a shallow poke at someone now and then. Sansa responds with a general observation: Jon gets jealous because he's a bastard. And in Jon's POV, we see that she's right about this. He is seething with resentment at being reminded of his bastard status, at Catelyn putting him away from his accustomed place near his family - because the royal family is visiting. He tells himself he's glad he's a bastard because he doesn't like the looks of the royal family and it's so much more fun to sit at the table with the junior squires with his wolf drinking gallons of wine instead of at the dull royal table where no one's allowed to have their wolf with them and everyone has to be on their best behavior. We can see he's feeding himself a line of bull. He takes mental potshots at the royal family's looks (even little Myrcella gets called 'insipid'). Is it indeed SUCH a stretch to say that Jon insulted Joffrey's looks - BEFORE Joffrey had done anything particularly wrong - because he was angry at the royal family's visit reminding him of his own bastard status?

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What? Why is LF going to go kill someone if Sansa does not pretend to be his daughter? I am confused...

I guess it's my turn to quote for you. From A Feast For Crows; LF has just called Sansa/Alayne his own daughter:

 

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"I'm not, though. Your daughter. Not truly. I mean, I pretend to be Alayne, but you know..."

Littlefinger put a finger to her lips. "I know what I know, and so do you. Some things are better left unsaid."

"Even when we are alone?"

"Especially when we are alone. Elsewise a day will come when a servant walks into a room unannounced or a guardsman at the door chances to hear something he should not. Do you want more blood on your pretty little hands, my darling?"

Marillion's face seemed to float before her, the bandage pale across his eyes. Behind him she could see Ser Dontos, the crossbow bolts still in him. "No," Sansa said. "Please."

...."You are Alayne, and you must be Alayne all the time." He put two fingers on her left breast. "Even here. In your heart. Can you do that? Can you be my daughter in your heart?"

At bottom, empathy means that you feel to one degree or another what another person feels - pleasure if they feel pleasure, sorrow if they feel pain. LF is a genuine sociopath who feels nothing in empathy with anyone else's feelings - and he's also the adept sociopath who's learned to understand other people's feelings intellectually, the better to manipulate them. When he decided to manipulate Sansa, he didn't choose to manipulate her with threats to her safety. He chose to manipulate her with threats to other people's safety - and it works. It wouldn't work if Sansa didn't have empathy for the people he's threatening - including the "servants" and "guardsmen" he is specifically saying he'd kill, here - that is, smallfolk.

So, thanks for making me look up and transcribe this passage - it proves that Sansa's empathy does extend beyond the nobility, despite your earlier statements. It also proves that she's willing to become whatever the creepy murderer feeling up her tit wants her to be to protect those anonymous people - which, ew. Now I'm feeling empathy.

Edited February 2, 2019 by screamin

[Eyes High]

5 hours ago, Advance35 said:

I wonder about GRRM.  I honestly think Sansa has nothing to answer for.  

You may well think that, but you're not writing the books.

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Arya was (and still is IMO) a loathsome toad. 

That "loathsome toad" is GRRM's second-favourite character, and again, you're not writing the books. You might not find her a "lovable scamp," but GRRM does, and his opinion about her and Sansa is the one that matters in relation to what will happen to Arya and Sansa in the books.

It's funny that we're onto the sociopath discussion, because in many ways Book Sansa's reactions are just not that of a person with a normal amount of empathy, like her detached non-reaction to seeing the Vale knight die, her total lack of concern about Mycah's death and its effect on Arya, or her viciously shutting down the maester's attempts to warn her about the effect of sweetsleep, since she and Petyr have "larger concerns." Normal people with a normal amount of empathy just do not act that way. So there probably is an argument to be made that Sansa is a sociopath, come to think of it, given her total lack of empathy in circumstances where normal people would care. Normal people care about children's safety. Normal people have some sort of reaction when their sibling's friend is murdered and feel some sort of sympathy. Normal people feel guilt when they do things that they should know are wrong, like bullying a sibling. That is normal. Sansa is not normal. 

Sansa is just not wired right, which is why I think it's strange that there's this notion that Sansa is "deeply empathetic." Her actions and reactions in AGOT and beyond are not those of a normal person with a normal amount of empathy. She is deeply lacking in something fundamental, which is why it's all the more striking when she occasionally acts like a human being. 

Edited February 2, 2019 by Eyes High

[Heathrowe]

I think all of the quotes of Sansa being shallow from the earlier books actually serve to make me think she's destined for something better in the end, like Lady of Winterfell or more. That is called growth/character arc-and that is what writers love to write, and shows love to depict. It's awfully boring when you start out perfect and end perfect. 

[merrick715]

18 hours ago, Eyes High said:

t's funny that we're onto the sociopath discussion, because in many ways Book Sansa's reactions are just not that of a person with a normal amount of empathy, like her detached non-reaction to seeing the Vale knight die, her total lack of concern about Mycah's death and its effect on Arya, or her viciously shutting down the maester's attempts to warn her about the effect of sweetsleep, since she and Petyr have "larger concerns." Normal people with a normal amount of empathy just do not act that way. So there probably is an argument to be made that Sansa is a sociopath, come to think of it, given her total lack of empathy in circumstances where normal people would care. Normal people care about children's safety. Normal people have some sort of reaction when their sibling's friend is murdered and feel some sort of sympathy. Normal people feel guilt when they do things that they should know are wrong, like bullying a sibling. That is normal. Sansa is not normal. 

Sansa is just not wired right, which is why I think it's strange that there's this notion that Sansa is "deeply empathetic." Her actions and reactions in AGOT and beyond are not those of a normal person with a normal amount of empathy. She is deeply lacking in something fundamental, which is why it's all the more striking when she occasionally acts like a human being. 

In the first book,, Sansa feels like a girl who knows what is expected of her, and she wants to meet those expectations. There is also this weird undercurrent of anxiousness with Joffrey, even before the incident on the Trident. Also, she is an eleven-year-old. That scene where Joffrey orders Sansa to look at her father's head is a perfect example of her defense mechanism. She goes away inside. He can make her look, but he can't make her see. It reminds me of book Jamie telling Tommen to just go away inside when Tommen is confronted with the rotting body of his grandfather.

Kids can be self-centered jerks, but they also grow out of it. I was an asshole in middle school, but as I grew up, did some self-reflection, and changed. The difference between Sansa and I, besides her being a fictional character, is that I didn't experience a large amount of trauma. From the moment Ned died, Sansa has experienced a great deal of trauma, so it might be hard for her to find the time to deal with her shitty behavior in the past when she is trying to stay alive in the present.

Edited February 3, 2019 by merrick715

[GraceK]

You know, I’m not a Sansa Stan. I do like her though and  I do think she does suffer unfair criticism. The problem I think is because when it comes to her character she suffers in comparison to her outrageously more heroic siblings. You have Arya, this really cool character who not only shows immediate smarts when meeting the Lannister’s, but also total empathy with the small folk and down trodden. She’s set up as the hero almost from the start, just like Ned. How can anyone dislike the underdog who defends the peasants and rebels against the status quo and who also is considered ugly and picked on? She’s brave, outspoken and sees through bullshit. Then you have Robb, handsome, brave and true. He tries to avenge his family, raised an army. Has a dangerous wolf....dies tragically while trying to avenge his father. Jon Snow, the arch type of a hero.... bastard born, wolf companion, badass swordsman, struggles against enemies....Bran, mytstical greenseer....Sansa is set up to be despised. She picks on her sister, loves the enemy, betrays her family, hates her bastard brother,....the list goes on. Your literally SUPPOSED to hate her. Her wolf dies early as a result of her actions and she shows no powers or “ starkness”. She’s the outsider and the most true example of a woman just trying to survive in enemy camp. She’s naive, shallow and not that smart. The show at least gives her a lot more depth and allows her to grow . But then ....😇.... You see her use her courtesy and name to survive. She has her own strengths. She may not be an assassin, or a warrior, but she bides her time and manages to live. When she has the opportunity to get revenge she does. I loved her feeding Ramsey to his dogs. And I love her strength in season 7. She’s strong now and has learned a lot from what she suffered. This idea that she has to be super empathic and sweet is kind of bullshit. Why? She’s been through a lot and has learned from the seat of the masters. I see a lot more Cersei in her now than “ sweetness “ and that’s not a bad thing. Someone in the Stark family has to have ruthlessness. I think some people don’t like her because she’s the most realistic portrayal of a woman in that time period and she made some serious mistakes.  At the end of the day though, she chooses her family, and her “ pack”. That’s her character development. She’s pretty amazing because she’s NORMAL in a story of abnormal characters. She still made it. She survived her own way. She’s strong as hell too.

Edited February 3, 2019 by GraceK

[Smad]

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

Sansa is set up to be despised

As a literary device that's usually a great thing for people to read about. Or watch a character journey in a show/movie. Characters that are set up like that at the beginning are usually either villains or they come out on top via character change. Because someone who starts so low usually goes either further down or up. And a good writer manages to do that convincingly. All her other siblings are already on top, especially compared to her. They can't go up anymore because of that. There is only one way for them to go...down. Rob fell down, Jon fell down, Bran fell down and Arya is headed down a dark path. Sansa seems to be on the opposite trajectory when compared to her siblings. Sadly, first impressions linger in a lot of peoples minds and they aren't going to change their mind no matter how much that person may rise above their previous self. However it will never not baffle me how a child is hated so much, especially since children usually aren't aware of the bigger picture (especially with limited information), are very much the person they are due to how they were raised and have the time to grow up and change.

But something tells me that Sansa could kill LittleFinger, Cersei and all the other bad people in Westeros, save the world from the Others and become one of the best people in the story and she would still be hated by readers/watchers because she was so awful when she was 11-12.

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

Her wolf dies early as a result of her actions...

Why is that fanon so prevalent among fans? What action did Sansa take that killed her wolf?

Action 1: Arya decided to be her unlady-like self and play swords with sticks with Mycah

Action 2: Joffrey and Sansa come upon them, Joff attacks the boy

Action 3: Arya intervenes and Joff retaliates

Action 4: Nymeria jumps in to protect Arya

Action 5: Joff tattles to his mommy

Action 6: Cersei/Ned have Sansa dragged before everybody

Action 7: Sansa sides with no one, pleading not to remember. That was the best course of action as agreeing with Joff would mean siding against her family. Agreeing with Arya's story would mean dire consequences for Arya.

Action 8: Cersei insists on Lady being killed as revenge against Sansa

Action 9: King Robert is useless and just wants the whole thing over with

Action 10: Ned kills Lady

Sansa is at the bottom of a long list of characters whose actions lead to Lady's death. So why on earth is it her fault? I'll never understand, especially since it's everyone elses decisions that lead to Lady's death. The only two things that might have saved Lady were parents actually watching their freaking children (then the whole incident wouldn't have happened to begin with) or for Sansa to side with the Lannisters during the hearing and you can't tell me that the latter option would not just be another notch on the 'I hate Sansa' post.

Edited February 3, 2019 by Smad

[Lady S.]

Man, this thread looks like it should be on a book fandom site at least five years ago or more. The long hiatus must have really wreaked hell on this forum.

[screamin]

On ‎2‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 3:39 PM, Eyes High said:

It's funny that we're onto the sociopath discussion, because in many ways Book Sansa's reactions are just not that of a person with a normal amount of empathy, like her detached non-reaction to seeing the Vale knight die..Normal people with a normal amount of empathy just do not act that way. So there probably is an argument to be made that Sansa is a sociopath, come to think of it, given her total lack of empathy in circumstances where normal people would care. Normal people care about children's safety. Normal people have some sort of reaction when their sibling's friend is murdered and feel some sort of sympathy. Normal people feel guilt when they do things that they should know are wrong, like bullying a sibling. That is normal. Sansa is not normal. 

So Bran obviously is also a sociopath because as a six year old he watched a man get beheaded and watched the blood flow with the same calm fascination? Actually, no. He acted with composure because he was told it was socially appropriate and expected of him to do so. And so was Sansa. Her septa accompanied her to the tourney - a spectacle where it is likely that men will get seriously wounded or killed - because her very proper chaperone considered it a completely appropriate entertainment for young girls, and praised her for maintaining her calm as a lady should.

If you're going to call Sansa a sociopath for not melting into tears and instead only thinking it was sad the dead young knight would have no song written about him, you should also call Septa Mordane a sociopath for praising her calm and maintaining the same calm. You have to call Bran the same for maintaining the same tearless calm and interest in the spectacle of a man dying at an even younger age, and asking questions afterwards as if it were just another learning experience. But then, you'd also have to call Jon a sociopath for demanding a six year old witness such a spectacle and behave with the same calm you call sociopathic in Sansa...and you have to call Ned sociopathic for having Bran witness it and judging Bran negatively if he'd looked away or otherwise lost his composure.

Sociopaths are actually pretty rare - they make up 4% of a population, max. And you can't go to the population of a different culture and label them ALL as sociopaths because they engage in a behavior you find abhorrent by your cultural standards. The entire population of Rome were not all sociopaths for cheering at gladiator spectacles. Up through the 20th century bullfights were considered exciting spectacles in Spain and Latin America, and it's only lately that they're gradually fading out as cruelty to animals. But the people who've cheered bullfights for centuries (including Hemingway) weren't ALL budding serial killers. If you're going to judge Sansa as a sociopath for her appropriate behavior in her culture, then you have to explain why Bran isn't a sociopath for displaying exactly similar thoughts and behavior under similar circumstances, and why Jon and Ned aren't sociopaths for engaging in that same behavior and fostering it in Bran as desirable. I await your explanation with interest.

You'll notice I cut your reference to sweetsleep, because I already addressed that above. You also brought up the word 'sociopath' I mentioned, without addressing any of the reasons I wrote why I thought the label didn't apply to Sansa. Could you explain why you think I'm wrong? People are responding to what you're saying. I did, when I pointed out that in condemning Sansa for her bad thoughts while discounting her good acts, you're applying a standard to her that no human being could measure up to. This board is set up for conversations - you may as well respond to what people say to you, instead of declaiming in splendid isolation.

Edited February 6, 2019 by screamin

[anamika]

On 2/2/2019 at 8:32 PM, merrick715 said:

How do you explain Jon telling Stannis that Winterfell belongs to my sister Sansa? He refuses Stannis's offer of giving him the last name Stark and making him Lord of Winterfell.

This is also one of those things that's bandied about as fact in the fandom but is patently false. Jon uses the legality of Sansa being Ned's trueborn heir to shut down Stannis on the topic, but we have a whole Jon POV chapter, Jon ASOS XII where he internally debates the pros and cons of accepting Stannis' offer and Sansa does not feature in it at all. He does not take WF because Stannis requires that he burns the Godswood and Ghost reminds him that he is of the Old Gods and has no right to do this. He therefore decides to stay in the NW and do his duty. So refuses Stannis offer, not for Sansa, but for other reasons which you can read about if you read Jon's POV chapters in ASoS.

On 2/2/2019 at 8:32 PM, merrick715 said:

So Martin's whole philosophy boils down to girls like Jeyne and Sansa need to know their place.  That's repulsive. Shouldn't the punishment fit the crime? How does being a bully even compare to being repeatedly raped?

Every character in this series goes through some tough shit. If you are repulsed by this, then this is not the series for you. 13 year old Dany is brutally raped in the first book and she was an exiled, beggar princess, hunted down and in hiding. What did she do to deserve that? Theon was tortured, flayed, raped, castrated and abused so badly, he is not even Theon anymore. Did Theon deserve this?

Jeyne was brutally raped and tortured because she was with a bad guy and one of the smallfolk with no value as a political hostage. That was the difference between Sansa and Jeyne - despite both being trapped in KL. Sansa was a Stark hostage. Who cares about a Jeyne Poole. That's the realities of Martin's world.  Jeyne being forced to impersonate Arya and losing her nose? That's karmic for what she did to Arya. Jeyne is vain - she considered herself pretty and Arya ugly. And we are reminded of this even in the last book:

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Talk like that will get you killed, or worse. That lesson he had learned as Reek. “You are the real Arya, my lady. Arya of House Stark, Lord Eddard’s daughter, heir to Winterfell.” Her name, she had to know her name. “Arya Underfoot. Your sister used to call you Arya Horseface.” “It was me made up that name. Her face was long and horsey. Mine isn’t. I was pretty.” (The Prince of Winterfell, ADwD)

And into TWoW, we learn that Jeyne must continue to impersonate Arya and that she is losing her nose and she's not happy about all that:

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“Jeyne Poole had wept all the way from Winterfell to here, wept until her face was purple as a beetroot and the tears had frozen on her cheeks, and all because he told her that she must be Arya”

“When the tip of her nose turned black from frostbite, and the one of the riders from the Night’s Watch told her she might lose a piece of it, Jeyne had wept over that as well.”

 It's the same with Sansa in her last book, when she finally recognizes that she was now a bastard just like Jon. GRRM is making these characters go through an experience that they belittled other characters for.  Or do you think that there is no connection between Sansa impersonating a bastard and the way she treated Jon or Jeyne bullying Arya over her appearance and then losing her nose?

On 2/2/2019 at 9:41 PM, screamin said:

Empathy is the ability to understand and sympathize with the feelings of another. You downgrade Sansa's impulse to help Dontos by calling it 'instinctive', as if it was the result of a mindless reflex that ALL humans have and that therefore Sansa shouldn't be given credit for it. But the fact is that human beings as a species do not all have an instinct to help others. Some people react that way; some don't. The difference in reaction is empathy. It's instinctive in Sansa in your own words, so thanks for that concession.

Where did I say that she should not be given credit for it? I only said that Sansa was not sitting there thinking the pros and cons and the risks involved and impulsively tried to help Dontos. Good for her that she has these rare moments of trying to help someone. Like Arya impulsively jumped in to save the poor butcher's boy from Joffrey. I was pointing out that Sansa is also impulsive and needed the help of Hound to get her out of these moments.

I acknowledged as do the other posters in this thread that Sansa has moments of empathy - as does Jaime, Theon, Tyrion, Jon, Arya, Dany, Bran, Catelyn, Ned etc.

On 2/2/2019 at 9:41 PM, screamin said:

I don't think "He would make her bleed for this" is an indication that Sansa knows for a fact that Joffrey won't kill her for publically contradicting and lying to him

Why does she not know this for a fact? It's right there in her POV. She is not thinking that she is going to die - only that she was going to get a beating for speaking up. At this point Sansa is well aware of her status as the Stark hostage and the best she's trying to do is keep her mouth shut to avoid Joffrey's abuse. But just like Arya, she has her impulsive moments and the Hound/Tyrion repeatedly step in to protect her.

That she speaks up despite this is admirable and she can join the rest of the other characters who also bravely defy the odds and risk injury to themselves to save people.

On 2/2/2019 at 9:41 PM, screamin said:

She said it in response to an insult that Jon made about Joffrey's appearance, which reveals nothing about his character, but does reveal that Jon isn't above taking a shallow poke at someone now and then. Sansa responds with a general observation: Jon gets jealous because he's a bastard. And in Jon's POV, we see that she's right about this.

No, she is not right. That's just you agreeing with Sansa's bigoted view of bastards despite there being nothing in the text to support it. Sansa is 100% absolutely fucking wrong when she links Jon's jealousy of Joffrey's appearance to his bastardy. That's her being a bigot.

On 2/2/2019 at 9:41 PM, screamin said:

He is seething with resentment at being reminded of his bastard status, at Catelyn putting him away from his accustomed place near his family - because the royal family is visiting. He tells himself he's glad he's a bastard because he doesn't like the looks of the royal family and it's so much more fun to sit at the table with the junior squires with his wolf drinking gallons of wine instead of at the dull royal table where no one's allowed to have their wolf with them and everyone has to be on their best behavior. We can see he's feeding himself a line of bull. He takes mental potshots at the royal family's looks (even little Myrcella gets called 'insipid'). Is it indeed SUCH a stretch to say that Jon insulted Joffrey's looks - BEFORE Joffrey had done anything particularly wrong - because he was angry at the royal family's visit reminding him of his own bastard status?

I asked you to point me to a line in Jon's POV where he resent's Joffrey's appearance because he is the crown prince. Point it out to me.  He is indeed bitter about being TREATED differently because of classism - what is wrong with that? Why does he think that Robert Baratheon is not fit to be king? Should he not be jealous of Bobby B? Should he not be jealous of Robb, Bran and Rickon? The reason Jon is shitting on Joffrey's looks is right there in the text -  which you once again ignore.  I will link to it again:

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Sansa, two years older, drew the crown prince, Joffrey Baratheon. He was twelve, younger than Jon or Robb, but taller than either, to Jon’s vast dismay. Prince Joffrey had his sister’s hair and his mother’s deep green eyes. A thick tangle of blond curls dripped down past his golden choker and high velvet collar. Sansa looked radiant as she walked beside him, but Jon did not like Joffrey’s pouty lips or the bored, disdainful way he looked at Winterfell’s Great Hall.

Point to where Jon is jealous here because Joffrey is the crown prince. Why is he not equally jealous of Robb's appearance considering he's only jealous because he's a bastard and Robb is his direct rival? Jon is dismayed that Joff is taller than BOTH Robb and himself despite being younger. Why? Robb is not a bastard, so why is he dismayed about this on Robb's behalf?

So when Sansa later on described Joff's lips this way:

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Sansa stared at him, seeing him for the first time... She wondered how she could ever have thought him handsome. His lips were as soft and red as the worms you found after a rain, and his eyes were vain and cruel. "I hate you," she whispered.

So Sansa is jealous of Joff being a crown prince here and that's why she's now disparaging his looks? Or maybe, just maybe Jon was critical of the way Joff looks because of his nature which we see Jon understand clearly in Arya's POV chapter?

It's clear that Jon and Arya have already discussed all this about Joffrey. Bran talks about how Jon is super observant. This is the first we are getting Jon's POV, so we see his thoughts on Joff for the first time - and that's Joff acting disdainful of WF.

Sansa was being a bigot there, plain and simple. People get jealous for all sorts of reason. Sansa constantly trivializing Jon's emotions because he's a bastard  is why she's his least favorite sibling and why he does not give two shits about where she is and what her status is. You asked for examples of Sansa's mistreatment of Jon? There it is.

On 2/2/2019 at 9:41 PM, screamin said:

I guess it's my turn to quote for you. From A Feast For Crows; LF has just called Sansa/Alayne his own daughter:

 

On 2/2/2019 at 9:41 PM, screamin said:

"Especially when we are alone. Elsewise a day will come when a servant walks into a room unannounced or a guardsman at the door chances to hear something he should not. Do you want more blood on your pretty little hands, my darling?"

Marillion's face seemed to float before her, the bandage pale across his eyes. Behind him she could see Ser Dontos, the crossbow bolts still in him. "No," Sansa said. "Please."

...."You are Alayne, and you must be Alayne all the time." He put two fingers on her left breast. "Even here. In your heart. Can you do that? Can you be my daughter in your heart?"

I am still not getting it. She does not want a servant to hear what they are plotting and get killed? Ok. She does not want any unnecessary blood on her hands while she plots with LF. So? Sansa does not want people to get hurt.  But if they are in the way of her survival, then they will get hurt - Marillion and SweetRobin being examples.

On 2/2/2019 at 9:41 PM, screamin said:

When he decided to manipulate Sansa, he didn't choose to manipulate her with threats to her safety. He chose to manipulate her with threats to other people's safety - and it works. It wouldn't work if Sansa didn't have empathy for the people he's threatening - including the "servants" and "guardsmen" he is specifically saying he'd kill, here - that is, smallfolk.

LF also manipulates Sansa with promises of her protection. And that's why she helps:

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“What if Lord Nestor values honor more than profit?” Petyr put his arm around her. “What if it is truth he wants, and justice for his murdered lady?” He smiled. “I know Lord Nestor, sweetling. Do you imagine I’d ever let him harm my daughter?”

I am not your daughter, she thought. I am Sansa Stark, Lord Eddard’s daughter and Lady Catelyn’s, the blood of Winterfell. She did not say it, though. If not for Petyr Baelish it would have been Sansa who went spinning through a cold blue sky to stony death six hundred feet below, instead of Lysa Arryn. He is so bold. Sansa wished she had his courage.

She reminded him of that. “When we lied to Lord Robert, that was just to spare him,” she said. “And this lie may spare us. Else you and I must leave the Eyrie by the same door Lysa used.” Petyr picked up his quill again. “We shall serve him lies and Arbor gold, and he’ll drink them down and ask for more, I promise you.” He is serving me lies as well, Sansa realized. They were comforting lies, though, and she thought them kindly meant. A lie is not so bad if it is kindly meant. If only she believed them . . .

All I did was build a snow castle, and she meant to push me out the Moon Door. Petyr saved me. He loved my mother well, and . . . And her? How could she doubt it? He had saved her.

Except to get me out. He did that for me. I thought it was Ser Dontos, my poor old drunken Florian, but it was Petyr all the while.

I must not pity him, she told herself. He was vain and cruel, and soon he will be dead. She could not save him. And why should she want to? Marillion tried to rape her, and Petyr had saved her life not once but twice. Some lies you have to tell. Lies had been all that kept her alive in King’s Landing. If she had not lied to Joffrey, his Kingsguard would have beat her bloody.

She's not thinking of the kitchen maids for Marillion or when she orders the Maester to up SweetRobin's drug.  But because she wants to survive. She lies about Marillion who is tortured and has his nails pulled out because she wants to protect herself and LF.

There's nothing wrong with Sansa putting number one first. So kindly don't attack me for that. But Sansa is not a pool of empathy trying to save all the kitchen maids in the Vale by plotting with LF. She's looking out for herself and if someone gets in the way, that's bad for them. But she does not deliberately want to get people hurt. For example,

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Robert’s lip quivered. “I was going to come sleep with you.” I know you were. Sweetrobin had been accustomed to crawling in beside his mother, until she wed Lord Petyr. Since Lady Lysa’s death he had taken to wandering the Eyrie in quest of other beds. The one he liked best was Sansa’s . . . which was why she had asked Ser Lothor Brune to lock his door last night. She would not have minded if he only slept, but he was always trying to nuzzle at her breasts, and when he had his shaking spells he often wet the bed.

What would she do when the music began to play? It was a vexing question, to which her heart and head gave different answers. Sansa loved to dance, but Alayne . . . “Just give him a cup of the sweetmilk before we go, and another at the feast, and there should be no trouble.”

“Very well.” They paused at the foot of the stairs. “But this must be the last. For half a year, or longer.”

“You had best take that up with the Lord Protector.” She pushed through the door and crossed the yard.

Colemon only wanted the best for his charge, Alayne knew, but what was best for Robert the boy and what was best for Lord Arryn were not always the same. Petyr had said as much, and it was true. Maester Colemon cares only for the boy, though. Father and I have larger concerns.

Quote

“Mostly just roofs,” Arya admitted, “but some chimneys were smoking, and I heard a horse.” The Weasel put her arms around her leg, clutching tight. Sometimes she did that now.

“I don’t know about fish.” Arya tugged at the Weasel’s matted hair, thinking it might be best to hack it off. “There’s crows down by the water. Something’s dead there.”

"That crying girl’s no use either.”

“You leave Weasel alone, she’s just scared and hungry is all.” Arya glanced back, but the girl was not following for once.

Hot Pie must have grabbed her, like Gendry had told him. “She’s no use,” Gendry repeated stubbornly. “Her and Hot Pie and Lommy, they’re slowing us down, and they’re going to get us killed. You’re the only one of the bunch who’s good for anything.

Reading the sisters dealing with children, Arya comes across as generally caring more for the well being of Weasel than Sansa cares for her cousin SweetRobin.

So yeah. Sansa is not anything special when it comes to empathy. She has the rare, occasional moments when she tries to speak up for some poor soul.  She does not want innocent folks to get unnecessarily hurt. She has improved from what her snotty, self-absorbed self was in book one after suffering through abuse and having to live like a bastard and understanding the other side of things. That's character development.

Edited February 4, 2019 by anamika

[merrick715]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

On 2/2/2019 at 9:02 AM, merrick715 said:

How do you explain Jon telling Stannis that Winterfell belongs to my sister Sansa? He refuses Stannis's offer of giving him the last name Stark and making him Lord of Winterfell.

This is also one of those things that's bandied about as fact in the fandom but is patently false. Jon uses the legality of Sansa being Ned's trueborn heir to shut down Stannis on the topic, but we have a whole Jon POV chapter, Jon ASOS XII where he internally debates the pros and cons of accepting Stannis' offer and Sansa does not feature in it at all. He does not take WF because Stannis requires that he burns the Godswood and Ghost reminds him that he is of the Old Gods and has no right to do this. He therefore decides to stay in the NW and do his duty. So refuses Stannis offer, not for Sansa, but for other reasons which you can read about if you read Jon's POV chapters in ASoS.

On 2/2/2019 at 9:02 AM, merrick715 said:

So Martin's whole philosophy boils down to girls like Jeyne and Sansa need to know their place.  That's repulsive. Shouldn't the punishment fit the crime? How does being a bully even compare to being repeatedly raped?

Every character in this series goes through some tough shit. If you are repulsed by this, then this is not the series for you. 13 year old Dany is brutally raped in the first book and she was an exiled, beggar princess, hunted down and in hiding. What did she do to deserve that? Theon was tortured, flayed, raped, castrated and abused so badly, he is not even Theon anymore. Did Theon deserve this?

Jeyne was brutally raped and tortured because she was with a bad guy and one of the smallfolk with no value as a political hostage. That was the difference between Sansa and Jeyne - despite both being trapped in KL. Sansa was a Stark hostage. Who cares about a Jeyne Poole. That's the realities of Martin's world.  Jeyne being forced to impersonate Arya and losing her nose? That's karmic for what she did to Arya. Jeyne is vain - she considered herself pretty and Arya ugly. And we are reminded of this even in the last book:

2

Thanks for the tip but I've already read the books, including Jon's chapters. I still think Sansa was part of the reason Jon declined Stannis's offer. Is it the entire reason? No. There were other reasons why Jon declined Stannis's offer, and they had nothing to do with Sansa. Why does it have to be an all or nothing thing? People have multiple reasons for deciding something, and Jon's no different. Why does the meerest hint that Jon might care about Sansa draw such ire? It's not like I'm diminishing Jon's love for Arya by saying Sansa might have played a role in Jon's decision making.

 

First of all, I don't think  Dany and Theon deserved what happened to them.  I don't have issues with Sansa or Jeyne suffering in the books, because like you said, everyone suffers in the books.  However, it feels like, no matter what Sansa and Jeyne do, they will never be forgiven for how they acted in the first book. Jeyne and Sansa were bratty, romance loving girls, who are the embodiment of what Westeros expects of girls, and they bullied Arya. That is their crime? To atone for the bullying, Sansa must marry an unattractive older guy, and slink into obscurity.

[screamin]

3 hours ago, anamika said:

Why does she not know this for a fact? It's right there in her POV. She is not thinking that she is going to die - only that she was going to get a beating for speaking up.

Where in her POV does it say she's only going to get a beating? You quoted it yourself, but all I see in her thoughts about what punishment she could expect for publically contradicting the king and then lying about it is a panicky "He would make her bleed for this." Not one word about the blood being drawn only by flogging (which as I said, can itself be life-endangering) - and there is no reason given to suppose that he wouldn't make her bleed by some deadlier method...he IS threatening to kill her, in so many words, even before she lied to him (thus compounding her crime).

3 hours ago, anamika said:

I asked you to point me to a line in Jon's POV where he resent's Joffrey's appearance because he is the crown prince. Point it out to me. 

And I told you that wasn't what Sansa said, or what I was saying.  Sansa said poor Jon is jealous because he is a bastard. Who would he be naturally jealous of? His legitimate brothers and sisters, no? His legitimate brothers and sisters who have the privilege of sitting with the royal family, leaving him seething in the background telling himself he's happier there (when he clearly isn't) and taking cheap shots at the appearances of the royal family that his brothers and sisters are befriending as equals - which he isn't allowed to do. I think what most clearly shows his jealousy is him calling Myrcella 'insipid.' Myrcella is AFAIK universally described as beautiful, AND she's only eight. Jon thinking of a little girl insultingly as 'insipid' is both startlingly petty and inaccurate, which is unlike Jon as usual. So why is he doing it now? Well, he does it when he sees Robb accompany her in to dinner. As Ned's oldest son, that would be JON'S duty, if he were his father's legitimate son. It's pretty clearly a case of sour grapes - miserable jealousy. So when Sansa hears that Jon said the crown prince looks like a girl - a serious insult in that time and place (and sometimes even in our own) - she shrugs it off as Jon jealously denigrating a member of the royal family because as a bastard he isn't allowed to associate with them the way his legitimate siblings are. And I think, in this case, she's right...it's only afterwards that Jon sees Joffrey do anything overtly bad, and thus have more grounds for insulting him than his appearance.

 

4 hours ago, anamika said:

I am still not getting it. She does not want a servant to hear what they are plotting and get killed? Ok. She does not want any unnecessary blood on her hands while she plots with LF. So? Sansa does not want people to get hurt. 

So, it's a sign of empathy for "servants" and "guardsmen" - that is, smallfolk - people I believe you earlier said she had no empathy for. She has enough empathy that LF is able to use that empathy to manipulate her with it into pretending to be his daughter even in her own mind (there's a reason why some of her chapters are called 'Alayne') though he is a creepy murderer who likes to fondle her breasts and give her tongue kisses while having her sit on his lap and call him "father." As for her endangering SR - as I said earlier, she has not been told that sweetmilk is dangerous. 

4 hours ago, anamika said:

Where did I say that she should not be given credit for it? I only said that Sansa was not sitting there thinking the pros and cons and the risks involved and impulsively tried to help Dontos. Good for her that she has these rare moments of trying to help someone. Like Arya impulsively jumped in to save the poor butcher's boy from Joffrey. I was pointing out that Sansa is also impulsive and needed the help of Hound to get her out of these moments.

You say that like it's a bad thing, that she leapt impulsively to defend someone even though she has pretty much no power to help in that situation. She's a prisoner with no political power, no direwolf, no martial art skills - just her wit and her tongue and her powers of winning people over, such as they are (and I count the fact that the Hound has become her ally a credit to that skill). I think she did admirably to manage a rescue under those circumstances.

4 hours ago, anamika said:

I acknowledged as do the other posters in this thread that Sansa has moments of empathy - as does Jaime, Theon, Tyrion, Jon, Arya, Dany, Bran, Catelyn, Ned etc.

I thought, with your use of Eyes High's trivializing word "kindness" for her acts of empathy when she risked herself to help others, that you agreed with his view that Sansa is a sociopath with no empathy. I misunderstood and apologize.

[anamika]

On 2/4/2019 at 8:46 PM, merrick715 said:

Thanks for the tip but I've already read the books, including Jon's chapters. I still think Sansa was part of the reason Jon declined Stannis's offer. Is it the entire reason? No. There were other reasons why Jon declined Stannis's offer, and they had nothing to do with Sansa. Why does it have to be an all or nothing thing? People have multiple reasons for deciding something, and Jon's no different. Why does the meerest hint that Jon might care about Sansa draw such ire? It's not like I'm diminishing Jon's love for Arya by saying Sansa might have played a role in Jon's decision making.

Look, the books clearly outline in Jon's POV chapters why he refuses WF - and Sansa has nothing to do with this. You can make up a personal head canon about Jon doing it for Sansa. But that is not what the books say. I am stating what the books say. You can ignore it if you like. This does not have anything to do with Arya by the way - Jon did not take up Stannis' offer because he did not want to burn the WF Godswood.

On 2/4/2019 at 8:46 PM, merrick715 said:

 However, it feels like, no matter what Sansa and Jeyne do, they will never be forgiven for how they acted in the first book. Jeyne and Sansa were bratty, romance loving girls, who are the embodiment of what Westeros expects of girls, and they bullied Arya. That is their crime? To atone for the bullying, Sansa must marry an unattractive older guy, and slink into obscurity. 

Take that up with GRRM. It's GRRM that's writing Sansa being forced to impersonate a bastard - much to her great dislike - and Jeyne talking about how ugly Arya is compared to her in the last book and then crying about losing her nose. Feel free to make any connections of your own as to why these things are happening.

On 2/4/2019 at 9:35 PM, screamin said:

but all I see in her thoughts about what punishment she could expect for publically contradicting the king and then lying about it is a panicky "He would make her bleed for this." 

Yes, Sansa thinks she is going to get beaten up for speaking - as she has been earlier. She was not thinking that he was going to execute her or kill her for this.

On 2/4/2019 at 9:35 PM, screamin said:

Sansa said poor Jon is jealous because he is a bastard. Who would he be naturally jealous of? His legitimate brothers and sisters, no? His legitimate brothers and sisters who have the privilege of sitting with the royal family, leaving him seething in the background telling himself he's happier there (when he clearly isn't) and taking cheap shots at the appearances of the royal family that his brothers and sisters are befriending as equals - which he isn't allowed to do.It's pretty clearly a case of sour grapes - miserable jealousy. So when Sansa hears that Jon said the crown prince looks like a girl - a serious insult in that time and place (and sometimes even in our own) - she shrugs it off as Jon jealously denigrating a member of the royal family because as a bastard he isn't allowed to associate with them the way his legitimate siblings are. And I think, in this case, she's right...it's only afterwards that Jon sees Joffrey do anything overtly bad, and thus have more grounds for insulting him than his appearance.

You still don't seem to be getting this which I find baffling.

Jon is not jealous of Joffrey's looks because he's a bastard. Joffrey being a crown prince is not going to affect Jon in any way. Joff is sitting in KL and Jon is in WF. If Jon was going to disparage anyone's looks because he is jealous about being a bastard, it would be his direct rival for the position - as you so clearly point out - Robb. But Jon is not jealous of Robb's looks. He does not disparage the looks of Robb, Bran, Rickon, Arya or Sansa - rather he praises their appearance. Despite being treated less than compared to them - for which he IS bitter and angry. Do you see the difference?

On the other hand, he is dismayed that Joff is taller than BOTH Robb and himself despite being younger and astutely notices how vain Joff is - looking around the place that is hosting him with disdain. As if he was better than the Starks. Jon is first jealous as any boy would be that this younger kid is taller than him. And second he dislikes Joff's attitude which makes him look unkindly on Joff's appearance.

Neither of these things have anything to do with Jon's bastardy. If we got Robb's POV or if Arya had talked to Robb, Robb would have more or less disparaged Joffrey the same exact way that Jon did. Because it's a boy/Stark/Tribe thing for them.  In fact, after Ned is beheaded, Sansa can now see what Jon, Robb, Arya, Ned and literally everyone could see with Joffrey - he was beautiful but the ugliness of his personality made him look ugly.

Quote

Sansa stared at him, seeing him for the first time... She wondered how she could ever have thought him handsome. His lips were as soft and red as the worms you found after a rain, and his eyes were vain and cruel.

This is not Sansa being jealous. This is Sansa seeing what Jon did.

Let me explain it this way. A white boy is jealous of another white boy's appearance. Sansa is like that's just boys being boys. A poor black boy is jealous of that white boy's appearance. Sansa is like - he's just jealous because he's black. That's the equivalent of what is happening here. Jon is not allowed to feel and behave like other boys do because everything he does is linked to his birth over which he has no control. Robb can be jealous of Joff's looks and that's normal. Jon? Poor fellow, he can't help it. He's just jealous because he's a bastard. Jon must have hated that condescending pity he got from Sansa.

If Jon deceived another person, that would be attributed to him being a bastard because bastards are of wanton nature and born of lust according to Westerosi prejudice. The Blackfish immediately trashes Jon without even having an acquaintance with him because he's a bastard.

And Jon has had to live with this prejudice for his entire life.

On 2/4/2019 at 9:35 PM, screamin said:

So, it's a sign of empathy for "servants" and "guardsmen" - that is, smallfolk - people I believe you earlier said she had no empathy for. She has enough empathy that LF is able to use that empathy to manipulate her with it into pretending to be his daughter even in her own mind (there's a reason why some of her chapters are called 'Alayne') though he is a creepy murderer who likes to fondle her breasts and give her tongue kisses while having her sit on his lap and call him "father." As for her endangering SR - as I said earlier, she has not been told that sweetmilk is dangerous. 

I asked SeanC where Sansa repeatedly risked her life to save peasants. If you have that from the books, then please do let us know. Otherwise these are things that have already been discussed. Like all the other characters starting from Jaime to the Hound, Sansa has shown moments of empathy. No one is disputing that.

And yes, she knows the sweetsleep is dangerous because we see the expert clearly explain it to her. She poo poos his concerns because as Sansa clearly states right there:

Quote

Colemon only wanted the best for his charge, Alayne knew, but what was best for Robert the boy and what was best for Lord Arryn were not always the same. Petyr had said as much, and it was true. Maester Colemon cares only for the boy, though. Father and I have larger concerns.

She knows Coleman is pleading with her about the drug because he is concerned for the child. Sansa is like, yeah, dad and me? We have bigger concerns.

And LF later on pretty much outlines his entire plan to her - which involves SR dying, Harry becoming Heir and Sansa marrying him. If she cannot make the connection between SR being slowly poisoned and LF's plan, then she continues to be a naive idiot.

On 2/4/2019 at 9:35 PM, screamin said:

You say that like it's a bad thing, that she leapt impulsively to defend someone even though she has pretty much no power to help in that situation.

Not at all. It's only that Arya is often blamed for being impulsive and apparently would have been immediately killed in KL whereas Sansa survived because she can control herself. It's good to see that Sansa also impulsively tries to help the Knight Dontos and maybe now she can appreciate why Arya leaped to defend that poor butcher's boy from Joffrey.

On 2/4/2019 at 9:35 PM, screamin said:

I thought, with your use of Eyes High's trivializing word "kindness" for her acts of empathy when she risked herself to help others, that you agreed with his view that Sansa is a sociopath with no empathy. I misunderstood and apologize.

Sansa is only a sociopath, if Arya is one. As shown with examples above, Arya shows more kindness and empathy for the weak  - we have a straightforward example. Weasel and SweetRobin. No matter how annoying and clingy Weasel is Arya takes care of her even though her friends keep asking her to leave Weasel behind to save themselves. Sansa meanwhile locks the door because SR wets his bed and nuzzles her breast - an annoyance - and casually forces the Maester to give her little cousin dangerous doses of the Sweetsleep because LF's plans are more important then his health.

@Eyes High point was - they can correct me if I am wrong - that if Arya is considered a sociopath among these circles than Sansa is even more of a sociapath considering her lack of empathy in the first book during the joust and for poor Mycah and how even now she's not all that empathetic.

The point being that Sansa is in no way 'deeply empathetic' as her fans like to describe the character. She still has a ways to go - let's see how she interacts with her bastard brother and unsatisfactory sister once they meet again. If the show is anything to go by, LF's influence is going to make her less empathetic, not more.

Edited February 9, 2019 by anamika

[screamin]

10 hours ago, anamika said:

Yes, Sansa thinks she is going to get beaten up for speaking - as she has been earlier. 

No, that's your interpretation of what her thought "He would make her bleed for this" means. Joffrey is threatening her outright to kill her. There is nothing in her POV stating she thinks that that won't happen, that she's safe from that and will only get beaten like last time - and if I'm wrong about this, please quote it. (BTW, I can't remember - was she beaten the last time for contradicting him in public before the court, and then compounding her offence by lying to him - an easily disprovable lie?)

You assume he'll only beat her because that's what he did to her last time, and that therefore Joffrey can be trusted to stay within previously established boundaries of abuse. But Sansa's experience with Joffrey - seeing him order her father executed despite all previously established agreements, and despite the fact that he was doing his own kingdom incalculable damage by starting a war over doing it - shows her that Joffrey is too unpredictable to be trusted to stay within safe boundaries.

10 hours ago, anamika said:

You still don't seem to be getting this which I find baffling.

Jon is not jealous of Joffrey's looks because he's a bastard. Joffrey being a crown prince is not going to affect Jon in any way. Joff is sitting in KL and Jon is in WF. If Jon was going to disparage anyone's looks because he is jealous about being a bastard, it would be his direct rival for the position - as you so clearly point out - Robb. 

You still don't seem to be getting that I'm NOT saying that Jon is jealous of Joffrey's looks and is attacking them because he secretly wants to look like Joffrey or be Joffrey, any more than I'm saying he's attacking Myrcella's looks as 'insipid' because he secretly wants to look like or be a cute eight year old princess. I'm saying that he's denigrating the royal family's appearances - in some cases accurately (Joffrey, Tommen, the king and queen and Tyrion are pretty much as he described, though saying Tyrion looked a 'brute' was perhaps a bit harsh) - and inaccurately in another ('insipid' Myrcella) - because he wants to devalue what his family has deemed he is not worthy of, so he can feel better about not having it. His family has decided that as a bastard he's not worthy to sit at the same table with the royals, and so he's been exiled from his place at the side of the people he loves to sit at a distance and watch Robb take Myrcella in to dinner - a duty that should be his, if he weren't a bastard. So he tells himself he totally doesn't want that onerous duty with that icky insipid princess, yuck, he's much happier getting drunk with the squires. We see through his pretense - which falls apart before the end of the chapter. He's miserably jealous of his siblings' privileges and angry his family has deprived him of them.

So why doesn't he just be straightforward and attack Robb directly in his thoughts and words and deeds, you ask, as if he were Edmund the bastard brother in King Lear? (I think it was Edmund). Well, because unlike Edmund, Jon is a good boy both by the standards of his world and ours, and he loves his siblings and doesn't want to think badly of them. He also knows that by the standards of his world he's not being mistreated - he's being treated better than most bastards can expect, and he loves his father and doesn't want to think badly of his father or express anger at him even in his thoughts for treating him as 'less than.' So he displaces his anger toward a safer topic - the royal family, who's the cause of the unwelcome pointed reminder that he is a bastard. But when he screams that he would NEVER engender a bastard, his anger at his father breaks out of hiding too - just like the jealousy does.

If there's a child in the family who's treated differently than the others, but usually gets on well with everyone, things may go smoothly most of the time. But come Christmas, most of the kids get cool expensive Transformer dolls but that one child gets a cheap package of Plasticine - because he's the only one without wealthy grandparents, or a stepchild, or his parents are just playing favorites. If you hear the child muttering that Robb's Myrcella Transformer action figure isn't posable and will break before February and doesn't look a thing like the one in the movies and his Plasticine is better because he can make a posable Transformer or anything else - you may judge that it's true that Robb's action figure really ISN'T posable and WILL probably break soon, and that one really CAN make a Transformer and other things out of Plasticine, though Robb's figure DOES in fact look the one in the movies. But despite the accuracy of MOST of what the child is saying, you'd be on pretty safe ground to conclude the kid with plasticine is jealous of his siblings, even if he isn't saying anything against THEM.

Which is not to say it's fair or just for the child to be treated as 'less-than'. It's neither. But that doesn't make the jealousy less real.

10 hours ago, anamika said:

And yes, she knows the sweetsleep is dangerous because we see the expert clearly explain it to her.

We don't. We see him question her about whether SR got a nosebleed and she answered in the negative. He concludes then that it's all right to give it to him now, though not to repeat the dose for six months. He does not describe at any time what would happen if SR gets it more often, except a nosebleed. It may simply be an annoying side effect, for all Sansa knows. But as I said earlier - we know he did not describe it as life-endangering to SR, because if he HAD, Sansa would not have wanted to endanger SR's life, even if she'd been as sociopathic as Eyes High says she is...because at that time, she knew LF hold on power depended entirely on SR being alive, and she knew nothing of LF's long term plans.

10 hours ago, anamika said:

@Eyes High point was - they can correct me if I am wrong - that if Arya is considered a sociopath among these circles than Sansa is even more of a sociapath considering her lack of empathy in the first book during the joust and for poor Mycah and how even now she's not all that empathetic.

Eyes High is saying outright that Sansa is 'wired wrong' - a sociopath void of empathy - because she watched the young knight die without tears, merely thinking his death was sad, while Eyes High ignores the Septa who praised her for socially appropriate behavior the Septa herself was engaging in, Sansa's little brother who watched a man die with the same calm, and the rest of his family who requested he watch and praised him for that calm. It sure LOOKS to me like s/he's calling her a sociopath through cherrypicked examples s/he refuses to apply to the rest of her family or her world. They can answer me directly about that.

Speaking strictly for myself, I think both Arya and Sansa aren't sociopaths. To begin with, they are BOTH too young to make such a judgement - it can't be diagnosed the person is near adulthood, because the way a child is raised has so much to do with it. I will even concede that Sansa's low point of empathy was at the death of Mycah, and that if such behavior had been repeatedly praised and rewarded instead of pointed out as wrong by a parent, she would have been in danger of eventually growing up to become a sociopath. But Ned never - till his dying day - told Sansa she'd done anything wrong that day. In fact he told Arya she'd done the right thing. Why? Because Ned had made up his mind he was going to stick by King Bob and avenge the death of Jon Arryn, and if that meant marrying his daughter off to vipers as Joffrey and Cersei had proven themselves to be, she'd stay betrothed.  He didn't tell her that her diplomatic approach of taking no sides in the Mycah incident had been wrong because Joffrey had acted vilely - but he was going to marry her to that vile boy anyway. That would be putting her in an untenable position while washing his hands of responsibility for her fate. He judged as a parent that it was better for her that she not regard the boy he was going to marry her to as an enemy. It was understandable of Ned, but it showed his priorities of fidelity to King Bob and the memory of Jon Arryn over both his kids was screwed up, and it was a failure on his part as a parent.

Ever since Sansa's low point, fate has reproached and punished her for her uncaring attitude at that time - the way Ned shrank from doing. It is to her credit that she took some improving lessons from it, instead of just shrinking into a defensive bundle ONLY concerned with keeping herself safe. Arya has started out from a higher point of empathy than her sister - which meant she potentially has more to lose (and IMO has made some alarming steps in that direction). Neither Sansa nor Arya are sociopaths now - but IMO, Book Sansa and Book Arya are both in danger of becoming sociopaths - because they're both currently being 'raised' by murderers intent on teaching them to become sociopaths. It still remains to be seen how much each of them will choose to emulate about their current foster parents.

Edited February 9, 2019 by screamin

[Smad]

1 hour ago, screamin said:

It sure LOOKS to me like s/he's calling her a sociopath through cherrypicked examples s/he refuses to apply to the rest of her family or her world. They can answer me directly about that.

Applying different standards as to how to measure the various characters seems to be par for the course with some which I find interesting. To avoid getting things mixed up I'm going to only focus on the show. Using the same standard that's used to judge Sansa, that she's responsible for the deaths of Mycah/Lady/Ned, by disregarding age/upbringing/context/actual canon etc. (which is the standard measure how to judge Sansa) and compare her to her still alive siblings.

Sansa: Lady, Mycah, Ned (though I still have no idea how she caused Ned's death in the show but his name is dropped often enough so he counts). And I guess Jon's army during BoB.

Jon: Willingly took a vow that will forever prevent him from helping/being there for his family. Helped Tormund and Co. over the wall who then slaughtered (and in some cases ate) innocent people. Lost his head during BoB and got most of his army killed.

Arya: Her refusal to kill Tywin herself or use one of her free kills, is responsible for the deaths of Robb, Cat, Talisa and her unborn child. Not to mention hundreds of Northmen who also lost their lives at the Red Wedding. If she had also named Cersei, the Lannisters would have been out of power completely and not only would her great uncle Blackfish still be alive but the hundreds of people that died when Cersei blew up the Sept would also still be kicking.

Bran: His refusal to listen to his mother and stop climbing the walls is partially responsible for getting the Stark-Lannister feud going. He got Hodor, 3ER and Summer killed. If those were the last of the Children, he also caused the extinction of an entire race. And oh yeah, by sending Rickon and Osha away, he is also responsible for their deaths.

So compared to her siblings, she is only perhaps 3rd in line for getting her family killed (depending on where Jon's vow would put him) but Bran and Arya rank above her. Which one of them has the highest body count overall is hard to say though (Bran probably has the least but he wiped a whole race off the map so there is that).

When the same rules are applied to her siblings, Sansa really isn't the worst of the lot. Yet people refuse to apply said standard to the rest of them. Different rules for different characters.

Edited February 9, 2019 by Smad

[Colorful Mess]

6 hours ago, screamin said:

Book Sansa and Book Arya are both in danger of becoming sociopaths - because they're both currently being 'raised' by murderers intent on teaching them to become sociopaths. It still remains to be seen how much each of them will choose to emulate about their current foster parents.

Just adding on here but I do know that George called Ayra a psychopath in this interview.

[merrick715]

On 2/9/2019 at 3:44 AM, anamika said:

Look, the books clearly outline in Jon's POV chapters why he refuses WF - and Sansa has nothing to do with this. You can make up a personal head canon about Jon doing it for Sansa. But that is not what the books say. I am stating what the books say. You can ignore it if you like. This does not have anything to do with Arya by the way - Jon did not take up Stannis' offer because he did not want to burn the WF Godswood.

On 2/4/2019 at 9:16 AM, merrick715 said:

This comes directly from the books: Jon: "By right, Winterfell should go to my sister Sansa" Stannis: "Lady Lannister, you mean? Are you so eager to see the Imp perched on your father's seat? I promise you, that will not happen whilst I live, Lord Snow." ... Jon: "Winterfell belongs to my sister Sansa." Stannis: "I have heard all I need to hear about Lady Lannister and her claim."   I'm not sure how using text from the book to support my view is somehow being twisted into my personal headcanon. An example of my personal headcanon would be my belief that Sansa is the true outsider amongst her siblings.

20 hours ago, Smad said:

Applying different standards as to how to measure the various characters seems to be par for the course with some which I find interesting. To avoid getting things mixed up I'm going to only focus on the show. Using the same standard that's used to judge Sansa, that she's responsible for the deaths of Mycah/Lady/Ned, by disregarding age/upbringing/context/actual canon etc. (which is the standard measure how to judge Sansa) and compare her to her still alive siblings.

Sansa: Lady, Mycah, Ned (though I still have no idea how she caused Ned's death in the show but his name is dropped often enough so he counts). And I guess Jon's army during BoB.

Jon: Willingly took a vow that will forever prevent him from helping/being there for his family. Helped Tormund and Co. over the wall who then slaughtered (and in some cases ate) innocent people. Lost his head during BoB and got most of his army killed.

Arya: Her refusal to kill Tywin herself or use one of her free kills, is responsible for the deaths of Robb, Cat, Talisa and her unborn child. Not to mention hundreds of Northmen who also lost their lives at the Red Wedding. If she had also named Cersei, the Lannisters would have been out of power completely and not only would her great uncle Blackfish still be alive but the hundreds of people that died when Cersei blew up the Sept would also still be kicking.

Bran: His refusal to listen to his mother and stop climbing the walls is partially responsible for getting the Stark-Lannister feud going. He got Hodor, 3ER and Summer killed. If those were the last of the Children, he also caused the extinction of an entire race. And oh yeah, by sending Rickon and Osha away, he is also responsible for their deaths.

So compared to her siblings, she is only perhaps 3rd in line for getting her family killed (depending on where Jon's vow would put him) but Bran and Arya rank above her. Which one of them has the highest body count overall is hard to say though (Bran probably has the least but he wiped a whole race off the map so there is that).

When the same rules are applied to her siblings, Sansa really isn't the worst of the lot. Yet people refuse to apply said standard to the rest of them. Different rules for different characters.

Of course, her siblings aren't held up to the same standard. Don't you know that Sansa isn't a true Stark like the rest of her siblings? She enjoys girly things like sewing, romantic tales, heraldry, and is more proficient at reading and writing than of her older brothers. 

[Smad]

1 hour ago, merrick715 said:

Of course, her siblings aren't held up to the same standard. Don't you know that Sansa isn't a true Stark like the rest of her siblings? She enjoys girly things like sewing, romantic tales, heraldry, and is more proficient at reading and writing than of her older brothers. 

I know. Girls raised in a bubble with parents who don't explain a damn thing to them and who betroth them to psychos while also shielding them from the hard truths of life with nothing but Disney Princess movies for entertainment and only taught the feminine arts with an established system of grooming them...they deserve to be almost gang-raped, beaten and stripped in court and raped/brutalized and creeped on by an endless stream of men old enough to be their father.

Boy if this were the normal punishment for such girls (since people in this day and age say that) then Disney would have crashed and burned as a company long ago, since girls would be too busy being abused and have no time to watch their movies or buy their products.

Edited February 10, 2019 by Smad

[screamin]

22 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Just adding on here but I do know that George called Ayra a psychopath in this interview.

I accept GRRM as supreme authority on ASOIAF, but not on psycholgy. Everything I've read as an amateur says you can't diagnose  a child with sociopathy or as psychopaths until they're adults, because even children who show such initial traits CAN grow out of them.

Though of course, if Book Arya continues on her course of calmly murdering people on the orders of a group she joined of her own free will - a group that tells her it's not her business or call to decide if the people she's called upon to kill deserve it or not, just to kill them...then there's a clear path to that diagnosis once she reaches adulthood. And I can't say that Show Arya has yet convinced me she's NOT on that path still.

And in the interest of fairness, there's also a clear path for Book Sansa to the same diagnosis, if she gives in too whole-heartedly to LF's tutelage, once she gets the order from LF to do away with SR because with the capture of Harry the Heir SR is past his usefulness. She MAY take in too much of LF's moral twisting uncritically, and convince herself it would be a mercy to poor miserable SR, who's doomed to die of his fits anyway, just to have as much sweetmilk as he wants and let the death he's so terrified of come gently in his sleep without him ever knowing it. I think SR's murder will be a moral event horizon for Book Sansa, and while I think she'll pass the test and turn the tables on LF instead, there's the clear possibility she'd make herself unredeemable by failing it.

Edited February 10, 2019 by screamin

[anamika]

On 2/9/2019 at 10:27 PM, screamin said:

No, that's your interpretation of what her thought "He would make her bleed for this" means. Joffrey is threatening her outright to kill her. There is nothing in her POV stating she thinks that that won't happen, that she's safe from that and will only get beaten like last time - and if I'm wrong about this, please quote it.

I am interpreting it that way, because the text outright gives us her thoughts on this - 'He's going to make me bleed for this'. Everything else is you adding on there and imposing thoughts on the character to suit a narrative that Sansa thinks she is going to be killed. Point to where Sansa thinks that she is going to die for doing this? She does not because she's already been in KL for a while and knows what to expect when she speaks out of turn.

On 2/9/2019 at 10:27 PM, screamin said:

You still don't seem to be getting that I'm NOT saying that Jon is jealous of Joffrey's looks and is attacking them because he secretly wants to look like Joffrey or be Joffrey, any more than I'm saying he's attacking Myrcella's looks as 'insipid' because he secretly wants to look like or be a cute eight year old princess. I'm saying that he's denigrating the royal family's appearances - in some cases accurately (Joffrey, Tommen, the king and queen and Tyrion are pretty much as he described, though saying Tyrion looked a 'brute' was perhaps a bit harsh) - and inaccurately in another ('insipid' Myrcella) - because he wants to devalue what his family has deemed he is not worthy of, so he can feel better about not having it.

I am not sure how to explain this any more better than I have done. You don't seem to understand how classism, racism or any kind of ism works.

If Jon wants to devalue what his family is doing to him by treating him as less than, then they should be the focus of his ire. Not Joffrey, who has nothing to do with how he is being treated in WF. Is Jon supposed to escort Joffrey or Sansa? No?  If he was treated right, then he would be escorting Myrcella. And if this was the source of his jealousy, he should have been making fun of Robb's appearance and thinking that Robb was 'looking like a girl', right? So why is he jealous of the crown prince because of his bastardy and not of Ned's trueborn heir Robb?

On 2/9/2019 at 10:27 PM, screamin said:

So why doesn't he just be straightforward and attack Robb directly in his thoughts and words and deeds, you ask, as if he were Edmund the bastard brother in King Lear? (I think it was Edmund). Well, because unlike Edmund, Jon is a good boy both by the standards of his world and ours, and he loves his siblings and doesn't want to think badly of them. 

Nice excuse there for Sansa's bigotry. Jon is a good boy so he is not jealous of his direct rivals. He is only jealous of some far away prince because he's a bastard. And that's pretty much the only reason for why Jon makes fun of Joffrey's appearance, right? Because of his birth and because Cat makes him sit separately he is jealous of Joffrey's looks?

And later when Sansa finally calls Joffrey ugly, she is just being jealous of him right? Just like Jon, Sansa is only jealous of Joffrey's good looks because he's the crown prince right?

We already see that Jon is very angry towards the source of his ill treatment - Catelyn. We see that he is bitter and resentful that he is being made to sit separately. And drinks and argues loudly with Benjen and wants to go to the NW. That's how he is dealing with his anger at being treated differently by the STARKS. Joffrey has nothing to do with how Jon is being treated. That's all on Catelyn and Ned.

I don't think I can get this point across any more than this. If anyone else wants to give it a go and explain classism for you, then they are welcome to go ahead. It's more or less connecting a person's every actions and emotions to their birth, class, race etc.

Quote

Prejudice is a baseless and usually negative attitude toward members of a group. Common features of prejudice include negative feelings, stereotyped beliefs, and a tendency to discriminate against members of the group. While specific definitions of prejudice given by social scientists often differ, most agree that it involves prejudgments that are usually negative about members of a group.

When people hold prejudicial attitudes toward others, they tend to view everyone who fits into a certain group as being "all the same." They paint every individual who holds particular characteristics or beliefs with a very broad brush and fail to really look at each person as a unique individual.

A stereotype is a simplified assumption about a group based on prior experiences or beliefs.

There is no connection between Jon being a bastard and him disparaging Joffrey's looks because the younger Joffrey happens to be taller than both Robb and himself and was vain and disdainful of WF and the Starks.

That's Sansa's prejudice against Jon talking. Jon is not allowed any emotion that Robb or any other normal boy is allowed to have. Everything he feels is linked to his class.

On 2/9/2019 at 10:27 PM, screamin said:

We don't. We see him question her about whether SR got a nosebleed and she answered in the negative. He concludes then that it's all right to give it to him now, though not to repeat the dose for six months.

We do. From Sansa's POV we see how the Maester repeatedly points to the danger of Sweetsleep:

Quote

"Perhaps a pinch of sweetsleep in his milk, have you tried that? Just a pinch, to calm him and stop his wretched shaking.”

“A pinch?” The apple in the maester’s throat moved up and down as he swallowed. “One small pinch . . . perhaps, perhaps. Not too much, and not too often, yes, I might try . . .”

Quote

“Give his lordship a cup of sweetmilk,” she told the maester. “That will stop him from shaking on the journey down.”

“He had a cup not three days past,” Colemon objected.

“And wanted another last night, which you refused him.”

“It was too soon. My lady, you do not understand. As I’ve told the Lord Protector, a pinch of sweetsleep will prevent the shaking, but it does not leave the flesh, and in time . . .”

“I try, my lady, yet his fits grow ever more violent, and his blood is so thin I dare not leech him any more. Sweetsleep . . . you are certain he was not bleeding from the nose?”

What would she do when the music began to play? It was a vexing question, to which her heart and head gave different answers. Sansa loved to dance, but Alayne . . . “Just give him a cup of the sweetmilk before we go, and another at the feast, and there should be no trouble.”

“Very well.” They paused at the foot of the stairs. “But this must be the last. For half a year, or longer.”

“You had best take that up with the Lord Protector.”

She pushed through the door and crossed the yard. Colemon only wanted the best for his charge, Alayne knew, but what was best for Robert the boy and what was best for Lord Arryn were not always the same. Petyr had said as much, and it was true. Maester Colemon cares only for the boy, though. Father and I have larger concerns.

How much more clearer can the Maester be? We as readers are able to get it. We get it from Sansa's POV hearing the same things she does. Even Sansa gets is as that last line show.

The Maester is pretty much telling her that the constant drug usage  is not good for the boy. In the middle of all this Sansa is actually thinking of whether Alayne should go dancing, lol! Then when the Maester further protests, she subtly threatens him by asking him to take it up with LF and leaves thinking about how both she and LF have larger concerns than SR.

So yes, Sansa knows that continuing to give SR the drug is not good for him. The Maester has clearly explained it to him and LF has clearly explained his plan to her which depends on SR dying.

22 hours ago, merrick715 said:

his comes directly from the books: Jon: "By right, Winterfell should go to my sister Sansa" Stannis: "Lady Lannister, you mean? Are you so eager to see the Imp perched on your father's seat? I promise you, that will not happen whilst I live, Lord Snow." ... Jon: "Winterfell belongs to my sister Sansa." Stannis: "I have heard all I need to hear about Lady Lannister and her claim."   I'm not sure how using text from the book to support my view is somehow being twisted into my personal headcanon. An example of my personal headcanon would be my belief that Sansa is the true outsider amongst her siblings

I thought you said you have read Jon's POV chapters?

Jon uses the excuse and legality of Sansa being the rightful to shut Stannis down on the topic after Jon makes the decision to not take him up on the offer. And why does Jon not take him up on the offer?

Read the Stannis chapter in ASoS where Jon is offered the position. They talk about Ned and Robb and Jon asks for time to think about it, but the first issue he has is that he is a brother of the NW.

Then read the next Jon POV chapter - Jon ASoS XII, where Jon debates the pros and cons of whether he should take up the offer.  It's a long chapter as Jon introspects on his childhood, on Robb and Cat, on Theon and Ned, Ygritte and Val and having children and a family and a home and whether he can still be in the NW. He considers taking up the offer and then Ghost shows up with his red eyes reminding him of the Weirwoods and the Old Gods and how there was no way he could burn the Godswoods as Stannis wanted. He had his answer then.

Throughout this chapter not once does Jon think of Sansa being the heir or WF belonging to her. He makes his final decision entirely without taking her into account - this is book canon and book fact.

So, no. Jon does not really care about Sansa and is only using her as an excuse so that Stannis would stop shoving the position onto him.  He cares more about Tyrion at this point in the books than he does Sansa.

If and when Robb's will comes into picture, Jon is becoming KITN. Because Robb's will does not have preconditions like Jon having to burn the Godswood.

Edited February 11, 2019 by anamika

[screamin]

6 hours ago, anamika said:

I am interpreting it that way, because the text outright gives us her thoughts on this - 'He's going to make me bleed for this'. Everything else is you adding on there and imposing thoughts on the character to suit a narrative that Sansa thinks she is going to be killed. 

And when you assume that "he'll make me bleed for this" ONLY means Sansa thinks she'll get a beating, even though he JUST threatened to kill her, you're adding on there and imposing thoughts on the character to suit a narrative that Sansa thinks she'll only get a beating. One can be made to bleed by a punishing flogging, OR by being cut - including beheading, as Sansa has reason to know. You're assuming that Sansa should have no fear of being killed (despite being threatened with it) because she only got a beating "last time", as you said. (And you still haven't explained what she did 'last time' for that beating, so we can see whether it was equivalent to contradicting his will in public AND then lying to him). So youre saying that Joffrey's bark of threatening to kill her is worse than his bite because you TRUST Joffrey to stay safely within previous boundaries of abuse. Which - really? This is JOFFREY we're talking about. 

6 hours ago, anamika said:

I am not sure how to explain this any more better than I have done. You don't seem to understand how classism, racism or any kind of ism works.

If Jon wants to devalue what his family is doing to him by treating him as less than, then they should be the focus of his ire. Not Joffrey, who has nothing to do with how he is being treated in WF. Is Jon supposed to escort Joffrey or Sansa? No?  If he was treated right, then he would be escorting Myrcella. And if this was the source of his jealousy, he should have been making fun of Robb's appearance and thinking that Robb was 'looking like a girl', right? So why is he jealous of the crown prince because of his bastardy and not of Ned's trueborn heir Robb?

Your condescension in explaining classism and racism to what you assume is my boundless ignorance is indeed marvelously generous. Thing is, classism is NOT the only thing operating here. There is indeed a class barrier between Jon and his sibs due to his bastardy, but it's more complicated than if Jon were just an exploited miner with no other ties to the Starks than that relationship of exploitation and class contempt. They are also his only family, and he loves various members to different degrees and vice versa. So, yes, he WILL have a problem expressing hostility and resentment towards the ones he loves, even in his thoughts, knowing that those he loves would be shocked and hurt by his anger. So he expresses it with lies to himself. Or do you REALLY believe him when he says he's happy being a bastard and sitting at the back of the dining hall? He doesn't express anger at his father even in his thoughts - but that anger comes out anyway when he screams that he'd NEVER father a bastard (never do to a child what Ned did to him). Why is it so hard to believe that Jon is thinking nasty untrue insults about Myrcella because he's jealous of Robb's privilege as the legitimate son and denigrates that privilege by insulting Myrcella instead of being angry at Robb, whom he loves? We KNOW he's angry at his father by his scream, even though his thoughts didn't show it, because he loves his father and doesn't want to freely express his resentment even in his thoughts - until the pressure and the wine broke that scream out of him, willy nilly? Why then take all his insults of the royal family at face value instead of lies to himself about how he really DOESN'T want his sibs' privilege? Why do YOU think Jon makes an inaccurate petty insult to Myrcella's appearance, if it ISN'T because he's jealous of Robb's privilege as the legitimate son to escort that princess to the table? 

6 hours ago, anamika said:

When Sansa finally calls Joffrey ugly, she is just being jealous of him right? Just like Jon, Sansa is only jealous of Joffrey's good looks because he's the crown prince right?

No, dear. It's because he's just killled her father. If she had called him ugly BEFORE she'd ever seen him do anything wrong, just based on his appearance, that would be shallow and petty, regardless if it were true. Insulting people based on their appearance alone IS shallow and petty. Finding out later that the person whose looks you insulted is actually Caligula doesn't retroactively make your insult less of a cheap shot.

6 hours ago, anamika said:

We already see that Jon is very angry towards the source of his ill treatment - Catelyn. We see that he is bitter and resentful that he is being made to sit separately. And drinks and argues loudly with Benjen and wants to go to the NW. That's how he is dealing with his anger at being treated differently by the STARKS. Joffrey has nothing to do with how Jon is being treated. That's all on Catelyn and Ned.

 Jon feels free to express resentment of Catelyn openly in his thoughts, because she never loved him (quite the opposite) and therefore he knows she wouldn't give a shit if he hated her or not. But Ned is just as responsible for Jon's painful situation...he begat him, he has the authority as the lord to tell Catelyn to treat him better, but he doesn't. Yet IIRC, Jon avoids thinking ill of Ned in his mental rant at the back of the dining room, even though we know the anger's there - we see it break out in his scream. So why is he mentally censoring his anger toward Ned? IMO, because he loves Ned and knows Ned would be hurt to know how angry Jon is at him. Why is it so absurd for you to think that Jon is mentally insulting Robb's dinner partner because he's jealous and angry at Robb's privilege as the legitimate eldest but loves Robb too much to express that anger at him in his thoughts, so he censors those thoughts the same way he censored the anger toward Ned? He displaces that anger onto a child he doesn't care about and therefore doesn't feel bad about thinking ill of. 

I mean, if this were a situation in the present  day, and a child were being treated as 'less-than' by his stepmother because she considered his deceased mother 'trailer trash,' that would be classist, (though the father's adultery would also have affected her attitude). If the father totally acquiesces in the stepmother's treatment and lets her tell the kids that little Jon's inferior position in the family is proper because of who his mother was, without contradicting her, Jonnie may  develop loving relationships with his sibs - and still resent their preferential treatment and feel jealous he isn't treated so. So when an occasion comes that underlines that treatment - like Christmas, when his sibs get Transformers and he doesn't - are you going to say that Jon's insult of Robb's Myrcella Transformer as a piece of crap is TOTALLY factual, objective and true, and has nothing to do with jealousy because CLASSISM!? That argument makes no flippin' sense in our world or in WF, which isn't  THAT different.

Edited February 11, 2019 by screamin

[Colorful Mess]

Jon was oppressed by classist Sansa? More like, Jon was a moody emo bitch in Book 1. He's offended by everything. He's written that way for character development. He has to grow a thicker skin. In Book 5 he's effectively using "bastard" and "Lord Snow" as his armor. Jon isn't "oppressed" by not being able to eat with his family or escort the royal family. As Donal reminds Jon, he's a castle raised bastard which is a far better life than any of the smallfolk had. And as Gendry reminds Arya, at least Jon knew his father and got to live in a castle. And Mel gives him a similar privilege check in S6. I dont know how else the author is supposed to show us that the "class system has teeth" otherwise. Jon's siblings also reinforce his bastard status too. Bran constantly refers to him as "his bastard brother." And funnily enough Arya snaps back at Gendry: "We'll you're nothing but a bastard boy!" Wow imagine that - Arya using someone's bastard status as an insult. The arguments that Jon never thinks of Sansa aren't really proving anything except reinforcing Jonsa theories. He's not supposed to fall in love with his "favorite sister." 

[screamin]

Quote

Jon was oppressed by classist Sansa? More like, Jon was a moody emo bitch in Book 1. He's offended by everything. He's written that way for character development. He has to grow a thicker skin. In Book 5 he's effectively using "bastard" and "Lord Snow" as his armor. Jon isn't "oppressed" by not being able to eat with his family or escort the royal family. As Donal reminds Jon, he's a castle raised bastard which is a far better life than any of the smallfolk had. And as Gendry reminds Arya, at least Jon knew his father and got to live in a castle. And Mel gives him a similar privilege check in S6. I dont know how else the author is supposed to show us that the "class system has teeth" otherwise. Jon's siblings also reinforce his bastard status too. Bran constantly refers to him as "his bastard brother." And funnily enough Arya snaps back at Gendry: "We'll you're nothing but a bastard boy!" Wow imagine that - Arya using someone's bastard status as an insult.

Don't forget Robb throwing it in Jon's face that a bastard could NEVER be Lord of Winterfell, when Jon once dared to propose he take that role in one of their games of Let's Pretend. Jon was so wounded by that one that he was having a Freudian wish-fulfillment fantasy dream of killing Robb and being Lord of WF years later. That's basic psychology textbook proof that Jon was resentful and jealous of Robb - and did his best to repress that resentful jealousy from his conscious mind.

Yes, Sansa was very conscious that Jon was a bastard and on a lower level socially than the legitimate family. But that didn't make her in any way uniquely bigoted among her siblings. Robb didn't have a problem calling Jon a bastard to his face - and even Arya knows calling someone a bastard is an insult, as you point out. For all anamika's straining herself to say that Jon's relative lack of fondness for Sansa meant she must've been more horrible to him than any of her other siblings, she can't point out a single time that Sansa ever deliberately insulted Jon the way Robb did.

The fact is that ALL of Jon's siblings accepted uncritically their parents' verdict of Jon's lesser status. Arya totally didn't have a problem being rude to the royal family when she felt like it - blowing off the queen's invitation to the wheelhouse for no better reason than wanting to hunt for rubies in the ford with Mycah. However, Arya didn't make a fuss about behaving politely the first night the royals dined with them...even though Jon was being exiled from the table. She COULD have made a fuss about refusing to attend the dinner unless Jon does - she loves Jon more than anyone. But even that love gives her no sense that Jon is being treated unfairly by her parents. Her parents - especially her dad - is beloved and faultless in her eyes, so it never occurs to her that their treatment of Jon is hurtful to Jon. She's blind to her OWN privilege there, as well as blind to his resentment of it.

To say that Sansa was meaner to Jon than all his other siblings (as anamika does) is a point of view.  However, if you defend your point of view by saying things that aren't true as 'evidence', like this:

Quote

Oh yeah and there's Sansa: called him only half-brother ever since she realized he was a bastard - that's his fondest memory of her.

...then you probably don't have as strong a case for Jon's indifference than you think you do.

Quote

He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon's breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady's coat and singing to herself...he thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird's nest." .

That's his fondest memory of Sansa, not the one where he thought bitterly that she only ever called him half-brother - which is still better than the bitter memory where Robb called him a bastard to his face

4 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

The arguments that Jon never thinks of Sansa aren't really proving anything except reinforcing Jonsa theories. He's not supposed to fall in love with his "favorite sister." 

I really don't believe in the Jonsa theory, though it IS odd that Jon seems to have a marked preference for redheads. Dr. Freud would say that everyone marries someone who reminds them of dear old mum (if they're men) or dad (if they're women). The only maternal figure Jon had in his childhood - for better or worse - was Catelyn. And there's always some ambivalence in all but the purest relationships of love and hate. Maybe GRRM meant to imply that there was still some Oedipal attraction in Jon's preference for redheads. But I think it's more likely - and simpler - that GRRM himself prefers redheads and wrote those preferences into his books straightforwardly. I really think Jon and Sansa spent too many years regarding each other as siblings to suddenly get over it now.

Edited February 12, 2019 by screamin

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note

Reminder: Sansa has always been the epicentre of impassioned debate within the GoT community, however, please remember to temper your posts with civility toward fellow members. 

 

[Minneapple]

So bleeding can never lead to death?

[Smad]

On 2/15/2019 at 12:41 AM, Minneapple said:

So bleeding can never lead to death?

Well I thought Sansa was in danger of dying when she had her first period on the show. There was so much blood that it looked like she had a stab wound and was bleeding out over night instead of her period.

[Advance35]

Worth bumping this thread up considering.

So glad this show is almost over.  I am finally going to have answers one way or another.  The books may never come out so D&D will always have my gratitude for the conclusion alone.

There were times I questioned whether Sansa would make it to the last arc of this story.  It seemed like their were always rumors of her demise every season.  I love that she's been in the thick of things, Battle of Blackwater, her intrigues with The Tyrells, her marriage to Tyrion, her assuming a false identity and becoming a fugitive, her "partnership" with Littlefinger, her marriage to Ramsay and all that followed.  Sansa, while a polarizing character, is one of the most discussed in all of Game of Thrones.  It's really impressive.

(OMG, Fan Art, Fan Fiction, the Sansa characters has the largest number by FAR. Whoa!)

As for her current circumstances, I feel for Sansa in a sense.  She's finally (she thought) arrived at a place where nobody had power over her.  She didn't have to fear Joffrey or bow to Cersei, watch LF coil around her or endure Ramsay.  She got to exact revenge on her rapist and a schemer who played a large role in the downfall of her family.  Regent Ruler of the North.  And now, thanks to Jon, she's nothing more than just another Highborn Lady.  She suffered a great deal to get Winterfell back (and was the driving force behind reclaiming it, since Jon didn't want to fight the Boltons and Sansa had to manuever him into it) and now, in her own home, in terms of power, she's behind Dany, Dany's LANNISTER Hand of the Queen Tyrion and The simp, Jon Snow.

I think Sansa should be worried, she's seen first hand how Alliances REALLY work.  One side is 8 times out of 10, trying to subplant the other.   Out of all the Northern Characters, Jon included, Sansa is the only one to spend any REAL time in the halls of Power.   She had a front row seat to the Lannister/Tyrell feud, if not it's bloody conclusion.  If Sansa finds out Jon could have gotten the alliance WITHOUT trading the North's Independence, she'd probably have to scream to keep from tearing out his hair.

I don't think Sansa's resentment is about Dany or Jon, I think she would, on some level, hate anyone who was/is able to subjugate her.  Jon has effectively made Sansa one of Dany's subjects.   Dany (if inclined) can have Sansa married off to god knows who, Lord of who knows where and just the fact that Dany COULD do such a thing is enough to earn her Sansa's enmity.

If the North were allowed it's Independence, I don't think Sansa would have a problem with Dany.  She doesn't care about the Iron Throne as long as it and it's problems stay out of the North.

[Minneapple]

2 hours ago, Advance35 said:

(OMG, Fan Art, Fan Fiction, the Sansa characters has the largest number by FAR. Whoa!)

My favorite GoT fic is an unfinished one on Archive of Our Own heavily featuring Sansa. Our Choices Seal Our Fate by DolorousEdditor. It's got some Jonsa and Jonerys. It's some terrific writing and I really wish the author would finish it!

I tend to think that Sansa is a popular character in fanworks because she's connected to a lot of other main characters in some way; she's a romantic figure and her ultimate path is not as clear as Dany's, Arya's or Cersei's. She's a bit more of a blank slate, especially since she left King's Landing and her goal is not known anymore.

[Advance35]

Quote

I tend to think that Sansa is a popular character in fanworks because she's connected to a lot of other main characters in some way; she's a romantic figure and her ultimate path is not as clear as Dany's, Arya's or Cersei's. She's a bit more of a blank slate, especially since she left King's Landing and her goal is not known anymore.

I couldn't figure out how I wanted to phrase it but you sum it up nicely.  One of the things that makes Sansa one of my preferred characters to watch/read is the fact that she interacts with SO many of the stories most prominent and charismatic characters.  

In the show she had notable relationships with Tyrion, Joffrey, Cersei, Margaery, Olenna, Brienne, Shae, Littlefinger, Lyssa, Robyn Arryn, Ramsay, Lord Royce, Jon Snow, Loras Tyrell, Sandor Clegane.

In the book she even has a small scenes with Tywin, Kevan Lannister, Lancel, Oberyn and Ellaria while in Kings Landing.

I guess that does give her a leg up on some of the more isolated characters on the canvas.  I just never thought the character would be the center of so much fanwork.  I think I may have to re-evaluate my view of Sansa as a polarizing character and just call her popular.  Wow. Again.

[Minneapple]

2 hours ago, Advance35 said:

I guess that does give her a leg up on some of the more isolated characters on the canvas.  I just never thought the character would be the center of so much fanwork.  I think I may have to re-evaluate my view of Sansa as a polarizing character and just call her popular. 

Oh, no. I think she's still polarizing as hell. Just look at the arguments in the fandom; most of them are about Sansa. 

[Smad]

8 hours ago, Advance35 said:

And now, thanks to Jon, she's nothing more than just another Highborn Lady.  She suffered a great deal to get Winterfell back (and was the driving force behind reclaiming it, since Jon didn't want to fight the Boltons and Sansa had to manuever him into it) and now, in her own home, in terms of power, she's behind Dany, Dany's LANNISTER Hand of the Queen Tyrion and The simp, Jon Snow.

When you get technical and take it all at face value, the way D&D intended, she was literally raped/abused/brutalized for it. That's on top of being the one to insist on taking back the Stark seat and bringing in the Vale. Without Sansa insisting on getting Winterfell back, Jon wouldn't even be KitN (and Lyanna of course). Finally she was able to have some semblance of safety and security (especially with LF dead), including not being married off because Jon wouldn't do that. Then Jon pissed it all away when he DIDN'T have to.

9 hours ago, Advance35 said:

Jon has effectively made Sansa one of Dany's subjects.   Dany (if inclined) can have Sansa married off to god knows who, Lord of who knows where and just the fact that Dany COULD do such a thing is enough to earn her Sansa's enmity.

It could very well happen in the case Winterfell falls, all the important parties survive and the fight takes them south. Especially once Cersei and her GC enter the picture, it could happen that Dany needs to make an alliance with another Kingdom to fight in  the South. The Vale for example was not part of Jon's Kingdom and they could say after the battle with the AotD they are out, they have no interest in helping Dany take the IT (Targ hate and all) and Dany promises Sansa to Robin Arryn (Royce would love that). Or whoever is in charge in Dorne/Reach/Stormlands. Heck she could offer the GC such a match. Other than Dany and Cersei there are no more higher ladies of value that I can think of besides Sansa. Lyanna Mormont and Alys Karstark are too young and the Iron Islands were promised independence so Yara is out too.

9 hours ago, Advance35 said:

(OMG, Fan Art, Fan Fiction, the Sansa characters has the largest number by FAR. Whoa!)

Out of curiosity last year I checked Ao3 and Fanfiction.net after coming across all the massive Sansa hate. Boy what a shocker. For someone so reviled she sure is popular in the fanfic world. 4 times more popular than Dany and twice as popular as Arya it seems. Also the one with the most ships it seems, however most of them are incest and pedo ships which is disturbing to say the least.

[Lady S.]

On 3/29/2019 at 2:54 PM, Minneapple said:

Quote

I guess that does give her a leg up on some of the more isolated characters on the canvas.  I just never thought the character would be the center of so much fanwork.  I think I may have to re-evaluate my view of Sansa as a polarizing character and just call her popular. 

Oh, no. I think she's still polarizing as hell. Just look at the arguments in the fandom; most of them are about Sansa. 

Yeah, it's possible to be both. There's also the fact that fic and other such fanworks tend to be a very female-dominated sphere in fandom whereas sites like this are a mix of the sexes and certain other places concerned with this series are quite male-dominated, which is obviously not to say that all girls are Sansa fans and/or all guys dislike her but there are trends to be noticed.

Edited April 4, 2019 by Lady S.

[Smad]

2 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Yeah, it's possible to be both. There's also the fact that fic and other such fanworks tend to be a very female-dominated sphere in fandom whereas sites like this are a mix of the sexes and certain other places concerned with this series are quite male-dominated, which is obviously not to say that all girls are Sansa fans and/or all guys dislike her but there are trends to be noticed.

Except that this only makes sense if Sansa were the only female character in GoT/ASoIaF. But there are so many and yet Sansa outnumbers them all by huge amounts. So her gender is not the reason. I mean seemingly Dany and especially Arya are way more beloved yet Sansa leaves them in the dust.

[Lady S.]

7 minutes ago, Smad said:

Except that this only makes sense if Sansa were the only female character in GoT/ASoIaF. But there are so many and yet Sansa outnumbers them all by huge amounts. So her gender is not the reason. I mean seemingly Dany and especially Arya are way more beloved yet Sansa leaves them in the dust.

That's not what I said, just that Sansa love is more prominent where there are more female fans. I'm not talking about why the character has such appeal for shippers, but how there are such different responses to her in different areas of fandom. 

Edited April 4, 2019 by Lady S.

[Hana Chan]

Will probably get rocks thrown at me for this, but here it is... Sansa looks ridiculous in that "armor". She's not a warrior of any kind. She's never lifted even so much as a bread knife in her own defense even in the most desperate of situation. Just like Cersei's armored epaulettes, it's meant to give her an illusion of strength and being impervious, but it's nothing more than a costume. And it's going to provide her little in the way of real protection once the AOTD comes banging on Winterfell's doors. Not unless she's got Jon or Brienne or someone else with a sword standing between her and whatever wright there to rip her apart.

For all the way the show is trying to imply how smart and strong Sansa is, she's still totally dependent upon others to protect her. 

[merrick715]

1 hour ago, Hana Chan said:

Will probably get rocks thrown at me for this, but here it is... Sansa looks ridiculous in that "armor". She's not a warrior of any kind. She's never lifted even so much as a bread knife in her own defense even in the most desperate of situation. Just like Cersei's armored epaulettes, it's meant to give her an illusion of strength and being impervious, but it's nothing more than a costume. And it's going to provide her little in the way of real protection once the AOTD comes banging on Winterfell's doors. Not unless she's got Jon or Brienne or someone else with a sword standing between her and whatever wright there to rip her apart.

For all the way the show is trying to imply how smart and strong Sansa is, she's still totally dependent upon others to protect her. 

Why does Sansa get pinged for needing protecting during a fight, but Dany doesn't? Drogon saved Dany's life twice. Drogon saved her from the Sons of the Harpies in season five, and Jamie in season seven. She would have been dead both times. I'm not dismissing her dragons, but without them, she can fight about as well as Cersei or Sansa. Neither Dany nor Sansa are known for the fighting prowess, Jorah, Ser Barristan Selmy, and Greyworm fill the same protector role for Dany, that Brienne, Pod, fill for Sansa. I don't understand why Sansa not being able to fight lessens her strength and intelligence, but the same doesn't apply to Dany. 

[screamin]

2 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

For all the way the show is trying to imply how smart and strong Sansa is, she's still totally dependent upon others to protect her. 

I don't see how the lack of martial arts makes her NOT smart or strong. Is physical strength the only kind of strength there is?

[Minneapple]

I don't think Sansa's costume is supposed to be armor like fighting armor. More like Cersei's armor. She's impenetrable, psychologically speaking. Cersei's style of dress and Sansa's style of dress have followed a very similar pattern and I don't think that's an accident.

[Hana Chan]

5 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

I don't think Sansa's costume is supposed to be armor like fighting armor. More like Cersei's armor. She's impenetrable, psychologically speaking. Cersei's style of dress and Sansa's style of dress have followed a very similar pattern and I don't think that's an accident.

That's the point that I was making. It's nothing more than a costume. And it is as silly as Cersei's.

[screamin]

7 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

That's the point that I was making. It's nothing more than a costume. And it is as silly as Cersei's.

It's a signal of her state of mind. Is it 'silly' to inform us she feels the need to feel less vulnerable?

[Minneapple]

Yeah, I don't think it's silly at all. It showcases her state of mind. She's no longer the girl wearing pretty colorful dresses. I mean I don't think it would make much sense for Sansa to sweep in wearing a pretty cornflower blue dress anymore. 

[screamin]

I mean, Queen Elizabeth I wore armor in her famous speech at Tilbury to her troops, even though she never fought in her life and no one expected her to. It was a gesture of solidarity to the troops around her. Was it 'silly'?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speech_to_the_Troops_at_Tilbury

[GrailKing]

10 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

For all the way the show is trying to imply how smart and strong Sansa is, she's still totally dependent upon others to protect her. 

So was Queen Elizabeth I; art is imitating historical facts of life.

With all her smarts Elizabeth survived many attempts on her reign and life and as far as I remember brandished no weapons.

[Colorful Mess]

Sansa is foreshadowed to be a queen in her first chapter. And if Sansa and Tyrion agree that their marriage was a sham then she would be an unmarried lady of Winterfell, key to the north again. It's both a vulnerable position even as its a powerful one. I think Littlefinger's line about the 3 queens was referring to her. The actors are certainly elevating Sansa to that degree. And on a shallow note, Urban Decay's Game of Thrones make up line has the three queens in their lipstick shades, Cersei, Dany, and Sansa. :)