Jaime Lannister: The Kingslayer

[Carrie Ann]

Or, should I say Kin-Layer? Eh? Ehhhhhhhhh? Eh.

Jaime is the character I've done the biggest turnaround on (books and show). I fought against it for so long, but Nikolaj Coster-Waldau is just so good, and now I'm on Team Jaime even though yes he almost killed my precious Bran.

[Rhondinella]

Co-signed.  I never felt a great affection for Bran, so that didn't bother me so much.  But, yes, I agree that when given interesting material in season 3 Nikolaj absolutely killed it.  He and Brianne were by far my favorite part of the show last season.  An interesting twist on the bickering couple who eventually fall for each other.  Knowing that's not going to happen here (I assume, since she's not his type--I don't know from the books) makes it refreshing to watch.  The grudging respect they each gain for the other is really nice.  Now we just need to see them side by side in combat again. assuming Jaime ever learns to fight left-handed.

[Kierstyn]

Not that I don't love Tyrion (I don't want to be stoned by the world of fans, of course), but I think that Jaime has really been overshadowed by his brother.  That bath scene last season was stunningly good.

[Carrie Ann]

I agree. I love Peter Dinklage, but his terrible accent distracts me from his performance sometimes. Sorry! But it's occasionally been Oirish!Angel levels of bad.

[jellysalmon]

I was actually an early adopter of the Team Jamie (before it was cool etc etc.) The episode in season 1 where

he fights Ned in the street

made me think "I love this capable yet charming villain" I actually went and bought the book the day after that episode aired so I could see what happens to him. Was not disappointed. I WAS kind of disappointed about how they ended that episode in season 3 where 

he gets his hand cut off

with that silly rock music during the credits. What was that!?

[halgia]

You mean The Hold Steady's version of Bear and the Maiden Fair? I thought that was perfect, honestly, though I'm a fan of the band....

[bluvelvet]

I am a big Jaime fan, can't wait to see his arc in the upcoming season.

[BlackberryJam]

Add me to TeamJaime.  I loved him from the very moment he shoved Bran out the window.  As I've not read the books, it was totally unexpected and it was done with such a level of...charm.   That's NCW selling the character.  He's been just amazing.  He also has fantastic cheminstry with GC. 

I loved Dinklage in Season 1, but I also find his accent ...difficult.  It's particularly awkward in his romantic scenes with Shae.  I would love for NCW to get some more love for his role. 

 

[magdalene]

I have loved Jaime since the dungeon encounter with Cat in the second book - so before it became "cool" to like him. I have been really happy with the casting of NCW and it's been fun to see some show watchers not familiar with the books slowly change their mind about the character.

[Constantinople]

What's there to change one's mind about?

The story he told Brienne in the bath makes no sense.  No one in King's Landing noticed the placement of wildfire all around the city and then its removal?  It seems hard to believe that it was kept secret for almost two decades.  The faked moon landing conpsiracies are more plausible.

It also hard to believe that Jamie never mentioned this to Tywin, in which case Tywin would have been sure to let the entire Seven Kingdoms know about it.  Until there's some corroborating evidence from a reliable source, all we have is Jamie's word, and we all know what that's worth.

Moreover, Jamie could have tried to disable the Mad King and spirit him away out of the city.  It probably would have failed and both Jamie and the Mad King probably would have ended-up dead.  But at least Jamie would have fulfilled his vows as Kingsguard.  Instead, Jaime defaulted to his usual position of murdering someone while saving his own ass.

Speaking of ignoring his vows, as Kingsguard, he's supposed to be defending the King, in this case, Robert Baratheon, not attacking Ned Stark or running off to serve as one of his father's generals.

Jaime has never shown any contrition or remorse for pushing Bran out the window.  Nor has has he show any contrition or remorse for passing off his 3 children by Cersei as Robert's, thereby sowing the inevitable seeds of a succession crisis that would engulf the realm in bloodshed.  Until he does something to acknowledge those mistakes and rectify them, saving Brienne from the bear isn't enough for his good act to wash out all of the bad (to paraphrase Stannis).  He's still a rotten onion.

Jaime has displayed a lot of self-pity, but then, the unofficial motto of House Lannister really should be "Poor Me", not "A Lannister Always Pays His Debts"

Note:  TWoP refugee here.  Since I'm discussing matters that have already aired, it's my understanding I don't need to use spoiler tags

[halgia]

@Constantinople: that's a good point about the wildfire story. I had always accepted it as truth, particularly since when we did see the wildfire people they were super-creepy, but I guess we haven't heard any confirmation from anyone but Jaime.

(And yes, no need to use spoiler tags for stuff-that's-aired in character threads here. Book-based spoilers definitely want them, though.)

Edited March 28, 2014 by Dougal

[BlackberryJam]

There was absolutely no motivation for Jaime to lie about killing the King.  It was him, alone in the bath with Brienne.  He sent away the guards.  He wasn't in love with her or trying to get her in the sack.  He wasn't trying to get her to let him escape.  He wasn't performing for an audience.   If Jaime wanted to make up this elaborate lie, he would have done it years ago.  He would have told it to Ned Stark in Season 1 in their confrontation in the Throne Room.  If he wanted to manipulate Brienne, he would have told her during their canoe trip or when they were tromping through the woods.

I simply cannot buy the very idea that Jaime would make up a massive lie to tell Brienne in the bathtub at Harrenhal.  I mean, why?  Does the Lion really care for the opinion of one lowly Sheep?  Jaime will tell a well-placed lie to get what he wants, but he's more likely to tell a harsh truth and have people despise him.  Didn't he answer a question about the last words of the first man he killed saying there were none, because he'd cut off the man's head?  He was flip and snarky about it.  The truth again being much worse than the lie.

When he killed the Targaryen King, he was ...17 I think?  The King had set Ned Stark's brother and father on fire in that Throne Room.  He was called the "Mad King" for a reason.  The idea that he'd want to burn the whole city rather than surrender it doesn't really seem that outlandish.  The King also had ordered him to decapitate his own father.  The King was, by all accounts, a freaking nutjob. 

The idea that Jaime would have been able to knock out the King, steal him away from the Pyromancer and the rest of the Kingsguard, hide him away until he saw reason, all while King's Landing is being sacked by Stark/Baratheon/Lannister forces is not reasonable.  This also isn't a "modern" story where we expect police officers to only ever shoot criminals in the shoulder and not in the chest. 

I can see perfectly how Jaime knew he would NEVER win the moment Ned Stark road his horse into the Throne Room.  Ned Stark.  The man who beheaded someone in front of his ten year old son, never even considering that the man might have had a valid reason for deserting the Night's Watch, you know, from seeing the undead rise.  Nope, he just lopped off that guy's head because no matter what, deserting the Night's Watch results in death.  There were no shades of gray in Ned Stark.  Jaime knew it.  Why try?

Edited March 28, 2014 by BlackberryJam

[clack]

I agree. I love Peter Dinklage, but his terrible accent distracts me from his performance sometimes. Sorry! But it's occasionally been Oirish!Angel levels of bad.

But what is the correct accent for an imaginary land on an imaginary world? It wouldn't necessarily be contemporary British, would it? Especially as all the dialogue writers for the show (and books, of course) are writing with an American ear.

Is Jaime lying about the wildfire, or did GRRM just not think through all the implications that would make it an unlikely story?

[Carrie Ann]

But what is the correct accent for an imaginary land on an imaginary world? It wouldn't necessarily be contemporary British, would it? Especially as all the dialogue writers for the show (and books, of course) are writing with an American ear.

Is Jaime lying about the wildfire, or did GRRM just not think through all the implications that would make it an unlikely story?

I would have been fine if they hadn't gone with a contemporary British accent for the Common Tongue, but they did. And that is clearly what Dinklage is going for, and missing some of the time. I hear NCW's accent slip sometimes too, but not in the Try-Hard way. More like, oops, that was a Danish lilt.

For your second question, I'd say the latter.

Obviously in the books, we're privy to Jaime's thoughts, and we're given no indication that he's lying about that story.

[jellysalmon]

You mean The Hold Steady's version of Bear and the Maiden Fair? I thought that was perfect, honestly, though I'm a fan of the band....

Yes that's the one. The song itself doesn't bother me, but it is so out of sync with all the other music in the show. Also, I've heard that a lot of people laughed at the music cue, and if that's the emotion they were going for, mission accomplished. I thought it was supposed to be more of a dramatic shocker than a "look ma! no hand!" zinger.

As for Constantinoples complaints:

A lot of this comes out more in Jamie's chapters,

but it seemed like he a pretty normal dude (except for the boning his sister part) who made a poor decision in the past and became a pariah. I've always thought it ridiculous that everyone (including holier-than-thou Ned Stark) always shamed him for being a Kingslayer when half the realm was trying to depose this madman. Even without the wildfire plot, I don't think he should be shamed so heavily. The only reason he joined the Kingsguard was for more twincest! Ok maybe not the best excuse.... 

I think Jamie's SOS chapters might be my favorite in the series. Not only is his inner monologue about how ugly Brienne hilarious, but it also does a better job than the show of how he became the man his is today. You see the progression of him being super selfish to selfish as their misadventures continue. It's such a change of pace from some of the more standard POVs who feel super generic at times.

[Joystickenvy]

I've always thought one of the strengths of the SOIF series is that most of the characters are neither mustachio twirling villains nor Dudley do-rights. The good guys have serious flaws and the bad guys have redeeming qualities.

There are exceptions.....Joffery, Bolton's Bastard, the Mountain & the goat's crew etc, but most main characters are a mix of good & bad.

Thus, Jaime tosses a kid out a window after screwing his sister, among other things and yet, at times is still likable. At times he's much easier to like than characters that would be one dimensional heroes in other stories.

[Kierstyn]

But what is the correct accent for an imaginary land on an imaginary world? It wouldn't necessarily be contemporary British, would it? Especially as all the dialogue writers for the show (and books, of course) are writing with an American ear.

Is Jaime lying about the wildfire, or did GRRM just not think through all the implications that would make it an unlikely story?

It is easier, of course,

to tell in the books if Jaime was lying about the wildfire

... But even in the show we see in season two, before the battle of the Blackwater, that the pyromancers have storage spaces for wildfire in secret room beneath the city.  And if I am remembering correctly, the one room we are shown is not the only one.  I thin Tyrion told the pyromancer to go gather them up from all the hiding places.  So there is reason to believe that aspect of Jaime's tale.  Was the burning of Brandon Stark (the elder) told in the show?  I cannot remember.

[clack]

Yeah, the show did mention the burning of the Starks.

What doesn't make sense to me is why Jamie's motive for king slaying has been kept secret. Did Jamie remove the wildfire that had been prepared around the city by himself? He had to have help, right?

And Tywin had to know about Jamie's motive, and, knowing, would have spread the word as to remove the stain from his son and heir and from the family name. Ned and Robert should have also known about the wildfire, after the fact, as they secured the city.

I have to think it's just a plot hole, unless GRMM has a surprise up his sleeve.

[BlackberryJam]

Why would Tywin know what happened in the Throne Room? The only way he would know is if Jaime told him, and why would he?

Jaime knew his father was going to sack the city. Tywin could reasonably assume that Jaime killed Aerys in support of the Lannister/Baratheon/Stark forces. Jaime knew his father wasn't going to support a Targaryen on the throne because Lannisters don't support the losing side. Tywin knew Jaime was going to have to choose between his vow to protect the King and his loyalty to his family. Tywin would of course believe that Jaime would choose to support House Lannister above all other oaths.

If Jaime had gone to Tywin and told him about the wildfyre, why would Tywin care? His son was already a disappointment. Tywin had enough power to get Jaime named to the Baratheon Kingsguard, oathbreaker or not. Why not have a man who had already killed one king out of loyalty to the family, guarding the new king? Make Jaime's act a heroic one and Robert no longer has cause to fear Jaime. Jaime as Kingslayer gave Tywin just a little more power through fear.

[Joystickenvy]

I'm not sure people like Ned Stark would have cared why Jaime killed the king. In their mind, he was one of the king's guard and he betrayed and murdered his king. They already knew the king was insane and did terrible things, yet they condemned Jaime for killing him anyway.

The fact that the Lannistes as a whole were not well liked also played a role. Jaime seems to resent the assumptions others make about him because of his and his family's reputation, thus I think he feels like offering an explanation would be like asking for approval from people who look down their noses at him. In a way I think he'd rather play the role they assign him while maintaing this secret knowledge that they are wrong (and wallow in self pity), than tell them the truth and risk that they still wouldn't respect the "real" Jaime. It also provides him an excuse to indulge in bad behavior, because he has this, if only people didn't treat me so badly for something I had good reasons to do, I wouldn't be such a bad guy complex.

Brienne calling him on some of his BS has done a lot to move him towards owning up to his own bad choices, but he's not there yet.

[joliefaire]

All of the above.  Plus, there is the gold-clad Lannister arrogance, rooted in Tywin but branching out into Jaime and Cersei, as well.  (Paraphrasing all) Tywin sneering at Jaime because Jaime cares that everyone calls him Kingslayer: 'Does a Lion care what the sheep think of him?'  And, Jaime himself: 'There are no men like me.  There is only me.'  And, 'Who is a Wolf to judge a Lion?'

I equate it to someone today saying: 'Your questions about my actions are beneath contempt and I won't even lower myself to answer such trash.'

[jellysalmon]

There was that show-only scene in Season 2 where Catelyn asks Jamie some question and he's about to respond but then doesn't. I thought it was a really telling moment. My interpretation was that he was going to try to explain his actions but then realized 1. Catelyn has already made her mind up about him. 2. His reasoning isn't something that she (or anyone else) would understand. So he decided to not bother. 

Another great show-only scene was Jamie and Tywin talking which was quoted mentioned by joliefaire earlier. There's this exchange.

Poor grammar aside, it's another exchange that really made Jamie fascinating to me.

[BlackberryJam]

The "could care less" and "could NOT care less" is one of my grammar pet peeves.  (Call me Stannis!)  I loved everything about that scene but it was a little ruined for me....on the other hand, if Jaime COULD care less, then he's admitting he does care.

I parsed that scene mentally over and over.  Charles Dance is just amazing as Tywin.  I think almost every scene could be improved by adding Tywin glaring at someone in the background.

I'm not sure if the writers missed the "not" in the dialogue, if it just got by editors or if English-As-A-Second-Language Coster-Waldau messed it up or if they meant to forget it.  Or you know, Jaime is listening to his father explain yet again why he (Jaime) is such a disappointment while he (Tywin) is butchering a deer and just fumbled his words.

Then again, I read it was a real dead deer that Dance was skinning in the scene, so they might have rushed through the whole thing because of how completely foul it had to have smelled.   

[joliefaire]

I read a description of Tywin's stag-skinning scene some time ago, from a production worker talking about what an absolute pro Charles Dance is.  They said the scene took quite a few takes due to various issues--lighting, camera angles, whatever.  And that every time, they'd just pile the skin back onto the carcass and Dance would set right in, peeling the skin off bit by bit, over and over again, never a complaint.  Charles Dance would make a great Tywin Lannister in real life--just do what needs to be done, no whining, no bitching, just DO IT !!

[Constantinople]

Why would Tywin know what happened in the Throne Room? The only way he would know is if Jaime told him, and why would he?

Jaime knew his father was going to sack the city. Tywin could reasonably assume that Jaime killed Aerys in support of the Lannister/Baratheon/Stark forces. Jaime knew his father wasn't going to support a Targaryen on the throne because Lannisters don't support the losing side. Tywin knew Jaime was going to have to choose between his vow to protect the King and his loyalty to his family. Tywin would of course believe that Jaime would choose to support House Lannister above all other oaths.

If Jaime had gone to Tywin and told him about the wildfyre, why would Tywin care? His son was already a disappointment. Tywin had enough power to get Jaime named to the Baratheon Kingsguard, oathbreaker or not. Why not have a man who had already killed one king out of loyalty to the family, guarding the new king? Make Jaime's act a heroic one and Robert no longer has cause to fear Jaime. Jaime as Kingslayer gave Tywin just a little more power through fear.

Tywin would ask Jaime what happened in the throne room just as Tywin asked Jaime what happened when Jaime attacked Ned Stark in King's Landing.  Tywin likes to be well informed.  Jaime would have told him because Jaime wouldn't have the will to resist.

Once Tywin knew, he'd broadcast it to all and sundry how a Lannister saved King's Landing from destruction.  That "golden" PR is worth far more than the fear generated by being the Kingslayer.

Also, given that Robert Baratheon killed Rhaegar Targaryen, I don't think he was too fearful of Jaime.

 

..Or you know, Jaime is listening to his father explain yet again why he (Jaime) is such a disappointment while he (Tywin) is butchering a deer...

You say deer.

I say sigil of the House Baratheon.

[BlackberryJam]

The Lannisters didn't have power because they were beloved.  They had power because they were feared and had money.  "A Lannister always pays his debts" cuts many ways, such as "fuck over a Lannister and we'll pay you back" and "if you're in it for the money, we have the most to give you."  Tywin himself had turned on the Mad King because the Mad King was going to lose.  Tywin didn't turn on Aerys because Aerys was a crazy ass motherfucker. 

I can see Tywin thinking, "Jaime killed Aerys because he knew Aerys was going to lose, knew the Lannisters didn't support him.  Jaime was being a good Lannister.  Oh, and new King Robert, don't fuck with my son even if you think he's an Oathbreaker."

I cannot imagine a bathtub confessional scene between Tywin and Jaime.  ...would it go like this?

Jaime:  I stabbed Aerys in the back because he was going to burn the people of King's Landing alive and I just couldn't let that happen. *shuddering*

Tywin:  Why do you care for the lives of sheep?  You stabbed Aerys in the back so Lannister men wouldn't be lost when we sacked the city.  That's the story and you're sticking to it, you worthless idiot.  You've already failed to produce viable heirs for me.  I'll not let you turn into a giant quivering twat.  Shut up.

ETA:  Love that sigil comment.

Edited March 31, 2014 by BlackberryJam

[OakGoblinFly]

The story he told Brienne in the bath makes no sense.  No one in King's Landing noticed the placement of wildfire all around the city and then its removal?  It seems hard to believe that it was kept secret for almost two decades.  The faked moon landing conpsiracies are more plausible.

 

Isn't this the same wild fire that Tyrion used during the Battle of Blackwater?  I don't think it was ever removed, just forgotten about.

[Carrie Ann]

I think the poster was saying it was placed around the city, ready to be used, and then removed from those places back into whatever holding facility the pyromancers had for it. But yes, it is the same wildfire. I think it's generally considered sort of inhumane to use, so I fully believe that the Mad King's plans for it would have been hushed up by anyone still alive who knew about it.

[spottedreptile]

I don't think it's implausible that the wildfire could have been planted in strategic places, secretly, and then removed, just as secretly. After all, it was in little pots. What's one little pot? Every city has millions of them. Over time, they could have easily been moved, one by one, and not have aroused suspicion. 

I think all Jamie's talk about killing Aerys as a noble deed to save the city is just trying to convince himself. He's very touchy about his sobriquet, which to me indicates  guilt and a fair degree of shame which he isn't willing to admit to himself. Hence the self-deception and the swaggering attitude to everybody else.

Jamie is one interesting character. Which is why I think Brienne is important to him. She sees right through all that. 

[bluvelvet]

I didn't realize that the deer Tywin was skinning was real, I assumed it was fake. I'm impressed.

[JaimeNotJamie]

The concept that Jaime will lie to save his own skin

doesn't have any basis in story canon.

  Jaime is a lot of things, but a liar is not one of them.  He doesn't broadcast his business to everyone, but I don't believe there is a single example of Jaime lying to a direct question at any point in the story -- even when Robb accuses him of sleeping with Cersei he asks for proof instead of denying it.

@Constantinople -- I don't really understand the need to cast someone in a good/evil light when it's clear the character isn't meant to be viewed in that way.  Obviously that's your right, but Jaime has done both good and evil in his life and trying to simplify his actions by labeling him as an evil character is misleading.  You're rather persistent about the bathhouse scene but there's no evidence to support that reading, and you were adament, IIRC, that he would not return for Brienne, or was lying to her for the purposes of getting her to let her guard down.  In reality, he risked his own life to save hers, so clearly the idea that he was simply manipulating her and she means nothing to him has already been disproven and will likely continue to be disproven in this upcoming season.

Again, this is not an attempt to excuse all of Jaime's actions (I think some defenders go a bit far in justifying his actions with Bran), but to simply label him as evil I think is a gross mischaracterization.  He's done evil things at points in his life, but it's willful dislike of the character to say he didn't grow and/or change through his interactions with Brienne.  I think, personally, that he's in the process of becoming a better man (doesn't make him a "good guy" either), and that hopefully such development will continue.

[Constantinople]

I never said Jaime lied.  I said his story didn't make sense.  Jaime might actually believe it, but that doesn't mean it's accurate.

I also never said he was evil.  He's simply not redeemed his bad acts by telling one bathhouse story which mostly went along the lines of "Poor Me" and "Pots of wildfire magically flew about King's Landing without anyone noticing".

What has Jaime done to atone for trying to kill Bran and crippling him for life?  Nothing so far.

What has Jaime done to atone for subjecting the entire realm to Joffrey?  Nothing so far.

As for Jaime not lying

His entire service in the Kingsguard, whether for the Mad King or Robert, is a lie.

Foisting his children off as Robert's is a lie.

He lied to Locke that the Sapphire Isle is called that because of the Sapphire mines.

He lied to his cousin Alton Lannister when he claimed he remembered Alton when Jaime claimed he remembered Alton from the time Alton once served as his squire.  That entire line of BS was intended to put Alton off his guard.

He lied to Ned Stark when Jaime claimed stabbing the Mad King felt like justice for the Starks.

[BlackberryJam]

If a cop shoots and kills a man who she truly believes has a bomb strapped to his chest and he's about to walk into an elementary school and kill 500 children, but it turns out even though the man was a murderous psycho, it wasn't a real bomb at all but something that just looked like a bomb, are we to skewer her for making the best decision she could in a highly charged moment?

Jaime's story about Aerys planning to burn King's Landing makes the most sense.  At that point in his life, Jaime's only bad act was having sex with his unmarried sister.  So, if it's not to stop the Mad King from enjoying his usual immolation, why would Jaime kill Aerys?

1.  For the fun of it?  Jaime has never been shown to enjoy murder for murders sake.

2.  To save his family?  This makes sense and Jaime admitted that one of his motivations was because Aerys had asked Jaime to bring him Tywin's head.  If Jaime had done that, he would have broken his oath of loyalty to his family.  So Jaime was in a no win situation right there.

3.  In some intricate plot to make Cersei queen?  At that point Robert was still betrothed to Lyanna.  It wasn't until after Aerys's death that the betrothal of Robert and Cersei.

Of course Jaime was wallowing in some self-pity in the bath.  In the few days before that, he'd had his sword hand, his identity, cut off, he'd wallowed in the mud, he'd been tricked into drinking horsepiss and he had decided to die.  I don't know any character who wouldn't have been experiencing some self-pity.  He'd kept the secret of killing Aerys to himself, but in that moment, when he was broken, he wanted one person to know the truth of him.  He didn't tell her to get something from her, but rather because he was tired of being seen as the oathbreaker, the kingslayer. 

Jaime hasn't yet had a chance to atone for Bran.  Maybe he will, maybe he won't.  But he's at the point in his story when he is making the internal change.  His story isn't finished. 

As far as inflicting Joffrey on the realm, will we blame Ned Stark for inflicting Arya on the realm once she becomes a stealth assassin?  Can we blame Aerys for inflicting Viserys on Essos?  No parent knows how their child will turn out, and it was Robert and Cersei who raised Joffrey.  But really, the blame for Joffrey being a horrible little shit lies with Joffrey. 

Edited April 4, 2014 by BlackberryJam

[bluvelvet]

I think we are forgetting something in Jaime's arc, when Jaime killed the mad king, he was a teenager. We also can infer that at one point he wanted to be an honorable knight. Brienne represents to him what he wanted to be at one time. I think however that the course of his life was significantly altered after that one incident that labelled him the Kingslayer. Here we have this teenager who does the right thing, he breaks his oath to save a city ( and not kill his father) and the entire world turns against him and mocks him. At that point he probably just gave up on being honorable. Ned Stark walks in and there is judgement in his eyes, and to a teenage Jaime, yes killing Aerys was probably justice for the Stark brothers who he saw burned in front of his eyes. He was a teenager, at that point all of his bad deeds had yet to occur.

However Jaime shouldn't have cared what Ned thought, but he probably looked up to Ned as a paragon of honor and figured if Ned judged him then the whole world would too. So he says nothing and instead goes down the twisted path he did.

1) Twincest : in a world where the Targaryens are known for sibling marriage I am not going to put too much stock in this. Unfortunately he was/is inlove with his sister

2) Pushing Bran out the window: this is probably the only thing truly I hold him accountable for..Robert would have surely killed Myrcella/Tommen if he found out the truth. I'm not adding Joffrey because well....Joffrey needs to die

3) Killing his cousin : This is Westeros, he was in jail and he saw and opportunity to escape and he took it, it wasn't a nice thing to do but I see why he did it.

Jaime is changing and evolving, he may be on a path to redemption or he may just revert back to his former self.

Edited April 5, 2014 by bluvelvet

[Constantinople]

If a cop shoots and kills a man who she truly believes has a bomb strapped to his chest and he's about to walk into an elementary school and kill 500 children, but it turns out even though the man was a murderous psycho, it wasn't a real bomb at all but something that just looked like a bomb, are we to skewer her for making the best decision she could in a highly charged moment?

Jaime isn't a cop, he's Secret Service. Secret Service aren't supposed to shoot the President. Nor are they supposed to attack Presidential Chiefs of Staff, or former Chiefs of Staff, in streets of D.C. Nor are they supposed to abandon the Secret Service to lead the California National Guard in an invasion of Oregon.

 

As far as inflicting Joffrey on the realm, will we blame Ned Stark for inflicting Arya on the realm once she becomes a stealth assassin?  Can we blame Aerys for inflicting Viserys on Essos?  No parent knows how their child will turn out, and it was Robert and Cersei who raised Joffrey.  But really, the blame for Joffrey being a horrible little shit lies with Joffrey.

It's not a matter of how Joffrey turned out, is a matter that Joffrey exists at all. Joffrey could be a perfect angel, but since he's not Robert's biological son, it's easily forseeable that Joffrey's existence would lead to a succession crisis resulting in the deaths of untold thousands. Which it did. That's on Jaime (and Cersei).

Even now, Jaimie is trying to wriggle out of saving Sansa and Ayra, going to far as to tell Brienne that Arya was likely dead and that there's a certain kind of safety in death. And this is allegedly the new and improved Jaimie.

The new and improved Jaime who wants to stay in the Kingsguard so, as he tells his father in the S4 opener, he can honor his vows. But then we find out he wants to stay in the Kingsguard so he can keep banging his sister.

[JaimeNotJamie]

I think there's a legitimate conversation to be had, which I'm sure is just beginning, regarding with to do with Sansa and the best course of action now that things are complicated and her parents are dead.  Arya, by all accounts, is dead.  I don't see that as wriggling out of anything but instead stating a perceived truth.  When he made the vow he thought Arya and Sansa were both being held in King's Landing.  Now Arya is gone and presumed dead so I'm not sure what Jaime is supposed to do about that.  Sansa is there and married to his brother and her mother, who he made the vow to, is deceased.  We'll see what he does in regards to her protection/safekeeping and his vow.

With the Kingsguard, I think it's both.  Cersei is still his main concern (as she always has been), but that may be fading post return.  I think he has legitimate reasons for wanting to remain in the Kingsguard and illegitimate ones (regarding Cersei).

The rest of your post from the other day isn't worth quibbling about.  We have a different interpretation of the past actions and how they should be viewed which is fine.  The way I view Jaime's character at this point in his development is someone who will go to great lengths, both good and evil, to take care of the people he values & cares about.  He doesn't seem especially sadistic or prone to random acts of cruelty, but he's capable of extreme violence for things he views as necessary.  Again, that doesn't excuse the more egregious things that he's done, but that's how I view his mindset. 

[BlackberryJam]

Constantinople, remove President and insert Hitler/Stalin/Pol Pot.  Would we despise one of their personal guards for killing to prevent genocide?

There are plenty of reasons to hate Jaime, but the killing of Aerys or thinking he lied about it aren't really some of of the good ones.  Jaime isn't a white hat or a hero.  He is just played by an actor who is killing it in every scene and making me want to root for the character.  The same with the Hound.  We all have our likes and dislikes.  A character many seem to love and I just find trite is Dany.  GAH.  She's boring the crap out of me.  Same with Sansa.  I held a deep loathing for Jon Snow until the season 4 premiere when he actually didn't seem like an emo kid.

 

[NoWillToResist]

Hopefully someone can clear this up for me...does Jamie know that Joffrey and the other younger blond kids are actually his? I truly can't recall who knows this.

I mean, he told his father that he didn't want a wife and kids, which made me wonder whether he knew he had fathered three kids already. Or, was he basically stating that he didn't want the 'white picket fence' type of life?

I find him to be on a slightly redemptive path and that's down to his interactions with Brienne and the actor's skills. He's got a long way to go, but I am hopeful.

It seems that he's had a run of crap luck lately. Got captured, got dragged around the place, had his hand chopped off, finally got home and his lover is all "...ew" and his father wants to hide him away somewhere out of sight. Karma in action?

I did feel a bit bad for him when Brienne was giving him shit about Arya and Sansa because I had to agree with him: what, exactly, is he supposed to do? Kidnap Sansa? And take her where? And how in the fuck is he supposed to even FIND Arya? The vow he made is worthless since he can no longer take them to their mother (unless he kills them and sends them to meet her in Heaven, but I rather doubt that's what Brienne has in mind).

I find myself puzzled to discover that I think I prefer the actor dirtied up and scruffy than clean-shaven and in his shiny armour. He just reminds me so much of Viggo's Aragorn in that way.

[SNeaker]

NoWilltoResist, I'm answering your questions under spoiler tags to be safe, but there are no, to my mind, actual spoilers in my answer, just stuff from the books about Jaime's feelings that aren't necessarily clear on the show.

Yes, Jaime knows they're his children, but per the books was never really close with them (Cersei kept him away so as not to arouse suspicion) and doesn't seem to have fatherly feelings towards them. He thinks of them more as Cersei's children, and only cares inasmuch as he cares about what she cares about, though I think he knows Joffrey's a little shit. He's only ever wanted to be with Cersei, so he wouldn't be interested in marrying and fathering children with anyone else.

Edited April 8, 2014 by SNeaker

[dramachick]

NoWilltoResist, I'm answering your questions under spoiler tags to be safe, but there are no, to my mind, actual spoilers in my answer, just stuff from the books about Jaime's feelings that aren't necessarily clear on the show.

Yes, Jaime knows they're his children, but per the books was never really close with them (Cersei kept him away so as not to arouse suspicion) and doesn't seem to have fatherly feelings towards them. He thinks of them more as Cersei's children, and only cares inasmuch as he cares about what she cares about, though I think he knows Joffrey's a little shit. He's only ever wanted to be with Cersei, so he wouldn't be interested in marrying and fathering children with anyone else.

I'm not NoWilltoResist, but I thank you for the spoiler tag.  I hope others will be as considerate as you in these character threads.

Edited April 8, 2014 by sukeyna

[Pickles Aplenty]

I find myself puzzled to discover that I think I prefer the actor dirtied up and scruffy than clean-shaven and in his shiny armour. He just reminds me so much of Viggo's Aragorn in that way.

Me too, but I'm not puzzled by it.  I've always liked scruffy guys, and scruffy Jaime?  Yummy.

[joliefaire]

Yup.  QFT.  Scruffy Jaime=Yum.  Corporate executive razor-cut Jaime=Not So Much.

[bluvelvet]

I liked Season 1, Prince Charming long haired Jaime, then I got used to scruffy Jaime.  Razor cut Jaime was a bit jarring when I first saw him but the look grew on me.  He isn't the same guy from season 1.

I don't think Tywin wanted to hide Jaime away, he wants Jaime to claim and rule Casterly Rock as is his birthright, however Jaime has no interest in Casterly Rock, his life unfortunately still revolves around Cersei.  Tywin figured that without his sword hand he can just send Jaime off to get married, rule the rock and father the next generation of Lannisters. He didn't figure on Jaime staying in the Kingsguard sword hand or no sword hand.

[NoWillToResist]

I liked Season 1, Prince Charming long haired Jaime, then I got used to scruffy Jaime.  Razor cut Jaime was a bit jarring when I first saw him but the look grew on me.

My husband literally did not recognize that Tywin was talking to Jaime. He only realized much later in the scene when the dialogue made it clear that it was Jaime.

QFT.

?

NoWilltoResist, I'm answering your questions under spoiler tags to be safe, but there are no, to my mind, actual spoilers in my answer, just stuff from the books about Jaime's feelings that aren't necessarily clear on the show.

Appreciate it, thanks! :)

[joliefaire]

Sorry, not trying to be obscure. QFT means Quoted for Truth.  Saying I agree with everything you said.

[bluvelvet]

"Jaime" also isn't as blonde as he used to be and if I'm not mistaken he had some grey at the temples.

Any speculations on why they stressed that Jaime was 40 in the episode, I've been trying to figure it out but I can't. I don't see what his age has to do with anything, but it has to mean something if it was mentioned twice.

Edited April 9, 2014 by bluvelvet

[Constantinople]

I did feel a bit bad for him when Brienne was giving him shit about Arya and Sansa because I had to agree with him: what, exactly, is he supposed to do? Kidnap Sansa? And take her where? And how in the fuck is he supposed to even FIND Arya?

He could at least try to find Arya.

And he could at least try to think about whether Sansa is safe in King's Landing.  Personally, I only think she's safe there so long as she doesn't bear a Lannistark child.  But once she bears one, she's at great risk.  Once she bears a son, she has one foot in the grave.  Once she bears two sons, she may as well slit her own throat.

But why do either when you can just unilaterally absolve yourself from your vow and do nothing?

Any speculations on why they stressed that Jaime was 40 in the episode, I've been trying to figure it out but I can't. I don't see what his age has to do with anything, but it has to mean something if it was mentioned twice.

Mid-life crisis. He's looking back on his life and sees he hasn't really accomplished much, as exemplified by his KingsguardWiki entry.

That's why next week's episode is titled "Cherry Red Convertible".

[NoWillToResist]

 

He could at least try to find Arya.

I half wonder if him putting out feelers for Arya would put her in more danger? Oddly, I think her odds of survival are better with the Hound. Anyway, even though there's a high likelihood that she's dead, she could literally be anywhere. I can't fault him for thinking it's a lost cause.

 

And he could at least try to think about whether Sansa is safe in King's Landing. 

The world of King's Landing is not safe but I do feel like her marriage to Tyrion has afforded her some measure of protection. Jaime removing her from the 'protection' of her husband might make her more vulnerable.

I may be naive, but I do believe that, had Jaime returned to find Arya in KL and Sansa unattached, that he would have tried to get them out of KL and back to some family.

 

KingsguardWiki entry.

Hee! :)

[Carrie Ann]

Yeah, Jaime would have to sneak back out of Kings Landing in order to look for Arya, unless he wanted her to be immediately killed or captured. Sansa is a trickier matter, and I'm interested to see how he tries to help her.

[Independent George]

Varys and Littlefinger both devoted all the resources at their disposal to finding Arya when they had a fresh trail. Jaime would be searching for her more than a year after she disappeared, and probably wouldn't even recognize her if he saw her. Finding Arya is not a reasonable expectation.

As for Sansa... I think he actually does have some responsibilities there. He obviously can't bring her back to Cat, but she is married to Tyrion. Jaime could at least talk over his options with him. One option is to accede to his father's demand and take over as Lord of Casterly Rock on the condition that he bring Tyrion (and Sansa) back with him. Once they're away from the Capital, their options increase dramatically. Tywin himself doesn't expect to live much longer - there's nothing stopping Jaime from naming Tyrion his heir, and emancipating Sansa.