Season 5 Speculation WITH Spoilers (UK)

[ZoloftBlob]

It's interesting to me too that it's made to seem as though it's unrealistic for Mary to have men interested in her because she's in her thirties and all it makes me think of are real life women like Diana Cooper (who would be a contemporary of Mary's), Alexandra Metcalfe, Jennie Churchill, Elinor Glyn, etc who were much courted and desired by men when they were in their thirties and forties.

 

Its not that Mary being a woman in her thirties being found attractive and interesting to men, its that there's an issue of historical accuracy involved.

 

Its not 2014, its 1924, in post war England. She's upper class and barring a sudden change in character, limits herself to upper class men. Men in their forties and thirties have been *decimated* by WW1. They have plenty of women to pick from. Mary is a widow who controls her own money and has an heir for her estate. Yes she's pretty, but frankly she is also pretty high maintenance and she's older and comes with baggage. Why be her second husband when you can get all of that - money, propert, position in a younger woman who doesn't have a child? Its unrealistic because she's not even offering all that much. In season four, she was pretty bluntly telling the men she was still hung up on her dead husband - its implausible that Tony and CHarles both have hung around for two years dancing attendence on a 33-35 year old woman without also being assailed by the many many single ladies of the 1920s who also really wanted husbands.

[Avaleigh]

In season four, she was pretty bluntly telling the men she was still hung up on her dead husband - its implausible that Tony and CHarles both have hung around for two years dancing attendence on a 33-35 year old woman without also being assailed by the many many single ladies of the 1920s who also really wanted husbands.

 

 

I guess it's different for me because I didn't see Charles as hanging around Mary and pining for her attention. I also don't think the fact that he isn't married yet has anything to do with him waiting on Mary. Blake just hasn't seemed like a suitor to me this season and I think that's why I disagree that this season has mostly been about Mary and her suitors. Gillingham is another story and I agree that the writing for him makes no sense and is OTT, but at the end of the day his character has two women who are interested in him and we see once he's dropped by Mary that he's in a position where he can easily take up with another woman. By next season Gillingham will likely be married and Mary is still probably going to be alone.

 

I think it's also worth pointing out that Gillingham seems to have been looking for an aristocrat with her own money (and possibly house) and that wouldn't have been as easy to find. I don't think he wanted a nouveau riche dollar princess type and he seemed to be the type who cares about what his family/mother thinks. I also don't think he'd necessarily be under the impression that he'd be able to easily be able to snap up the prettiest, youngest heiresses on the scene especially given the circumstances his family's estate. To me Gillingham seemed like he was mainly looking for breeding, compatibility, and financial stability (not necessarily in that order) and Mabel and Mary both seemed to fit the bill. 

 

Its unrealistic because she's not even offering all that much.

 

 

With the exception of her lack of enthusiasm about being with him (which is a big thing admittedly but he seems like he doesn't see this or something it's so strange), I can totally see how Gillingham would see Mary as the full package.

 

Mary has money, she lives in an estate (he'd like to live on one again, I think he's made that pretty plain), she's pretty and he's attracted to her, he likes her personality, and they both want to live the same kind of hunting/fishing/shooting country lifestyle. 

[Eolivet]

It's interesting that the world has pretty much discounted Blake as a continuing love interest.  I know I'm in the minority that actually like them, but I don't think we've seen the last of him yet.

 

Julian Ovenden has been doing Christmas press, and I don't think it's just going to be about promoting the album.  I also don't think they would have put him on the Christmas album so prominently if we were just getting rid of him.

 

Avaleigh's post said it beautifully, but there was simply no romantic tension with Blake. He kissed her and she had no reaction! Not a drawn in breath, not a momentary stammer, not even a surreptitious longing look -- on either of their parts. They both just smiled like nothing had happened. There's been no evolution of that relationship since the season 4 Christmas Special. No family member ever remarked on Blake or why he was there (and he was there a lot), as they did with Atticus or even Lord Merton. Mary never had a private moment of reflection about him. She hasn't mentioned him even in passing since he left. It's like he no longer exists to anyone. If he comes back, I'd say he might be the new Evelyn Napier -- there to make snarky remarks about Mary's new suitors.

 

As for the Christmas album, I remember when they had original song that was released specially for Christmas in season 2 called "Did I Make the Most of Loving You." They promoted it and the artist who sang it, and there was some speculation they'd involve it somehow in the Christmas Special. They didn't. It was entirely separate from the show.

 

I just don't think who sings on the Christmas album has any bearing on what's happening in the Christmas Special. Julian Ovenden is a trained singer with an excellent voice -- of course the Downton producers would be silly not to try to monetize that (and he probably gets some kind of royalty from album sales as well). But like the last time Downton did something for Christmas, it's separate from the show.

[Tetraneutron]

My guess (not a spoiler) is that they'll keep Blake in their back pocket in case the other suitors (or actors) don't work out. Season 5 was supposed to be a big love triangle between Mary, Gillingham, and Blake,  (and maybe Napier?) and when the audience was bored, it was resolved. Gillingham's been decicively eliminated, Blake hasn't, and can "return from Poland" next year if necessary. They kissed, and left on friendly terms. And if he's still in the mix next series or the one after (how many are they going to do, anyway?), he'll automatically look better because his longevity with Mary and on the show gives him legitimately with the audience.

[photo fox]

While I like the idea of Tom and Mary getting together (if done the right way) I absolutely loathe the idea of a triangle between Tom, Mary, and Edith. Talk about something that would be divisive and polarizing for viewers. 

 

Well, I'd change this to Tom and Edith, but otherwise, so much this.  If there's a Mary/Tom/Edith triangle in the offing, I will officially resign as mod of the Downton forum. lol

 

As a The Good Wife viewer, nothing would surprise me as far as Matthew Goode's future on that show.  All of the original cast members' contracts are up at the end of this season (and one person is already announced as leaving), so there may be a very big shake-up.  As it stands now, his character is currently pretty marginalized, as he works neither for the main law firm or for the State's Attorney's office, and only has a connection to one other person (admittedly the title character).  I wouldn't view his TGW contract as an absolute impediment to joining DA full-time, especially if he was motivated to do it and DA was motivated to work with him.  TGW has a really strong record of working around its cast members' other projects.

 

eta - my first comment was made with love.  You guys are awesome.  <3

[Tetraneutron]

Wasn't sure if this goes here (feel free to move) but I have an idea for what they'll do in season 6. In real life, the Law of Property Act was passed in 1925, eliminating the entail and allowing the next in line of either gender to inherit the title (and since all the money is tied up in the estate, the money). So by season 6, Mary will be the Earl (Countess?) of Downton. It's all hers outright, not through George. Of course that changes everything. It changes her marriage prospects, her relationship with her father, how involved she gets in the estate, everything. At least I think so. Google Law School isn't 100% on this.

[Avaleigh]

So by season 6, Mary will be the Earl (Countess?) of Downton.

 

 

I can't answer about the entail but I do know that Mary will never be the Countess of Grantham unless the family were to get special permission from the Crown. It's possible but they'd have to apply and fight for it and so far they haven't seem interested in doing that. I guess there's less of a need to be concerned now that George is in the picture. 

 

Inheriting the property and the title are two different things. In Matthew's case they were linked but gender still makes a difference in terms of inheriting the title for Mary. There are several families that have been in the news over the years for making their feelings known about the unfairness of girls not being allowed to inherit. The current Viscount Torrington is in a position where he knows that the title will pass to a distant cousin he's never even met even though he has three daughters. The title of the Knight of Glin became extinct a few years ago even though the 29th Knight also had three daughters. There are other examples of families currently dealing with this issue.

[Andorra]

Have to agree: Titles are still not inherited by daughters.

 

But Robert could leave Downton to Mary instead of George, so in case something happened to George, the family would still own the estate even if the title went to a distant relation.

[shang yiet]

Yes, something might well happen to George since he is the right age to fight during World War II and he won't be old enough to marry and have heirs before 1939. It would be nice to have a flashforward in the last season. Worst case scenario, George dies and a grocer's son finds he is the heir to Downton Abbey and he is pressured to marry Sybbie or Marigold.

[shipperx]

Title is a moot point until Robert kicks it. He's the Earl and Cora is the Countess until Robert dies.

Have to agree: Titles are still not inherited by daughters..

They did something recently didn't they? Right around when Prince William and Kate were married so that their first born, regardless of gender, would be the direct heir. (Then they had a boy rendering that a bit moot as well). Was that just for the monarchy or was that for all titles? Edited November 13, 2014 by shipperx

[Avaleigh]

The new rule is just for the monarchy.

 

There are however some titles (relatively new and older creations) that are inherited by women. One of the more famous modern examples is Lord Mountbatten's daughter Patricia being permitted to inherit his title. George Curzon is another prominent example of a man who was permitted to allow his eldest daughter Irene (who would have been an exact contemporary of Sybil's) to inherit one of his subsidiary titles after it was clear that he wasn't going to have a son.

 

There are actually more example than you might expect of women who have been allowed to inherit. I have noticed though that it doesn't seem to happen very often with titles above an earl. It's mostly with barons, viscounts, and earls and a fair amount of old Scottish titles like the Lord/Lady of Kinloss, Lord/Lady Saltoun, Lord/Lady Herries of Terregles, etc. You have to go a lot further back to find examples of marquessates and dukedoms passing down to a woman.

[MSquared]

I don't know how prevalent it would be nowadays, but the Marlborough title, after the death of the first Duke, John Churchill, passed to his eldest daughter and that was in the early eighteenth century.  And Fellowes himself was trying to get the law changed for the aristocracy due to the fact that his wife's uncle, Earl Kitchener, died without a male heir and she would have been next in line to inherit, if allowed.

 

(This topic has been an interest of mine for a while now, so, trivia geek here.)

[Brn2bwild]

 

The new rule is just for the monarchy.

 

Plus, the new rule allows a woman to inherit the throne if she is the first born, even if brothers are born after her.  The rule permitting daughters to inherit the throne if there are no sons has been around for a long time, since at least the Tudor Era.

[Badger]

The other countries in the Commonwealth have to sign off on it first for it to be official.  Apparently some of them are balking because they don't like the way it was done although they support the change.  

 

The Fife Dukedom was the last one that passed to a woman back in 1912.  She was born to Princess Louise of Wales (later Princess Royal) and The Duke of Fife in 1891 and had a younger sister Maud.  When it became apparent that there would be no sons, Queen Victoria basically started over and had the title changed so that either Alexandra or Maud could inherit.  

 

Alexandra married Prince Arthur of Connaught who was the only son of HRH The Duke of Connaught.  They had one son who died in 1943.  The current Duke is James Carnegie, the only son of Maud and The Earl of Southesk.  

 

Lady Saltoun, who is the widow of Alexander Ramsay, a greatgrandson of Queen Victoria via her granddaughter Princess Patricia of Connaught (later Lady Patricia Ramsay) also has her title in her own right.  Her eldest daughter is the current heiress to the title.  

[saki]

Anyone up for some predictions for the Christmas Special?

 

My initial thoughts are:

 

Robert will get a puppy.  It will be adorable.

 

There will be cute scenes with the three children.  I hope for some Isobel/George interaction but I fear it may not happen.

 

Sybbie will convince Tom not to leave Downton but he will do something other than be estate manager - possibly write for Edith's newspaper?

 

Isobel will marry Lord Merton.  Potentially Tom will move into Isobel's house?

 

Rose will announce a pregnancy.  (I don't think this is for the Christmas special but I wonder if Rose will convert in the end as a solidarity thing during the run up to WWII and/or raise their children Jewish.)

 

Either Mary will acquire yet another suitor or Blake will return (I don't think he and Mary are over.)

 

No idea about Edith - I do think that Fellowes is quite capable of killing Marigold off but I don't think it's a Christmas Special thing.

[Badger]

I have heard that JF is considering having a character get diabetes.  That could easily be Marigold as poor Edith can never count on being happy for too long. Or maybe Robert.

 

I also think Rose will end up converting although it may be offscreen and only talked about.  

[Eolivet]

Anyone up for some predictions for the Christmas Special?

 

Either Mary will acquire yet another suitor or Blake will return (I don't think he and Mary are over.)

 

No idea about Edith - I do think that Fellowes is quite capable of killing Marigold off but I don't think it's a Christmas Special thing.

 

I don't believe Fellowes will kill a child. He might have Edith lose custody, but that will be the extent of it.

 

Blake was supposed to be gone for a year -- if it hasn't been a year in between 5x08 and the CS, I don't see how he shows up again for Christmas.

 

Again, I keep going back to the idea that I believe Fellowes wants viewers to love Mary's new husband. The specter of M/M hung over that entire suitor plot, and I think Fellowes wants to prove he can create another super couple. Since neither Gillingham nor Blake seemed to click with the majority of the audience, I believe he's done with them both, at least romantically, for Mary. I believe the last thing Fellowes wants is Mary settling for a guy who's only going to draw negative comparisons to Matthew in terms of chemistry, storyline, etc.

 

I feel like his goal for Mary is to build a better Matthew: more conventionally attractive, with more of an intellectual spark. That's why I now think if viewers really like Matthew Goode in the CS, Downton will move heaven and earth to accommodate his schedule to have him back next year. Matthew (dead Matthew) is never mentioned -- Fellowes wants viewers to forget him. That definitely won't happen with this current crop of suitors, but it could with Goode. (heh)

[Tetraneutron]

 

I don't believe Fellowes will kill a child. He might have Edith lose custody, but that will be the extent of it.

I can see him killing Marigold. In the show, we consistently see that high-stakes conflict is established, and then something happens and makes everything happy again. Oh no, Robert made bad investments and they might lose the estate! That's OK, Matthew gets an inheritance out of nowhere. Oh, no, Miss Baxter might lose her job! That's OK, Cora forgives her. And so on, with every plot and every character (except Edith, whose life is a constant miserty parade). But Edith having an illegitimate child isn't something they can handwave away. And while they can get away with having the characters be more progressive than is realistic for the time about Jews and gay people, I don't see how the show has Edith NOT be a pariah, and doom both her and Marigold to a difficult life in society. There's kind of only one solution to that.

 

Killing Marigold gets around an insurmountable plot issue, while also allowing something horrible to happen to Edith, and if those two aren't the central themes of the show than I don't know what is.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Obviously

[saki]

Killing Marigold gets around an insurmountable plot issue, while also allowing something horrible to happen to Edith, and if those two aren't the central themes of the show than I don't know what is.

 

Exactly.  Also, in general, JF likes to make historical points and many children did die of various illnesses in this period.  It's really not very Christmas Specialy, though so I don't think we'll see it happen immediately.

 

I forgot one other Christmas Special prediction - Moseley and Baxter will kiss under the mistletoe.  Awww.

[SilverShadow]

I can't see Marigold dying. Killing off child characters is a turn off for a lot of viewers, and I imagine that with a good chunk of Downton's audience being older, that would go double. Plus he's never killed off a member of the family except when the actor was leaving.

[Avaleigh]

I can't see JF killing Marigold either. I can see her being sent away to a boarding school though.

As far as Christmas Special predictions- -

I agree that Rose will be pregnant.

I think Violet will turn down the prince.

I think Daisy will finally leave Downton but I'm undecided as to whether or not she'll go to London or the farm. (Fingers crossed for London!)

I think Tom will stay and it won't just be because Sybbie wants to stay. He's going to feel that they need him for some reason.

Also, if some romantic seeds are going to be planted for Tom and one of the Crawley sisters I think this is the episode where it needs to happen.

I think Matthew Goode will be a friend or maybe coworker of Atticus's.

I think Carson and Mrs Hughes will get their retirement property together.

[Andorra]

So the blurb for the DVD says there will be a "heartbreaking farewell". To me that means Tom is really leaving.

 

So I'm not going to be watching on Christmas, nor any future episode. And I won't be here on the boards either.

 

Goodbye all.

[TVFAN]

So the blurb for the DVD says there will be a "heartbreaking farewell". To me that means Tom is really leaving.

 

So I'm not going to be watching on Christmas, nor any future episode. And I won't be here on the boards either.

 

Goodbye all.

Does the DVD specifically reference the Christmas special?  If not, I suspect the heartbreaking farewell reference is to the passing of Isis.

[AZChristian]

An article about the Christmas special in the Daily Mirror (London) says that Tom and Sibby are going "across the pond."

[Brn2bwild]

Didn't someone say that the Daily Mirror tended to be speculative?

[Llywela]

Didn't someone say that the Daily Mirror tended to be speculative?

Yes, very much so. Take everything it prints with a grain of salt.

[charis]

Well, and even if they did leave, there's no reason they couldn't go and then decide, offscreen and between seasons, to return.  It'd be lazy writing and kind of cheap, but between seasons seems to be when they elect to make timeskips ...

[abbyzenn]

Allen Leech should have said something like "Tom made his decision.  We'll see on Christmas night if he does leave. You know I can't tell you exactly what happens" and leave it at that.  This stuff about Tom isn't dying, he may come back, he could come back, etc is just pointless and I don't know why he's saying such stuff.  It actually makes me think less of him.

 

If he wants time off to do a play - which he was brought up several times - the story could be he went to Ireland to visit his family.  Or his story line could be written around that - heaven knows it's not like he's in that many scenes.  They could even do some scenes with just him and Sybbie which could be done during his free time.

 

If he's so in demand as an actor then why hasn't he had a job during this break?

While he is my favorite character, I think I'll be sadder to see Sybbie go.  I think the actress is adorable and I can really picture her as a little Sybil.  There's something about her that's more appealing to me than George or Marigold.

[saki]

I don't find Tom very interesting as a character, to be honest, so I am fairly indifferent to whether he stays or goes.  I think the writing for him has been so uneven and inconsistent over the seasons that I just don't find the character convincing any more.

 

I would like something - anything! - to finally happen for Daisy, it's just tedious that we get these hints that she might leave all the time but she never actually does.

 

I hope Baxter gets more screen time.

[ZoloftBlob]

Its not that I don't find Tom interesting, its that he was more interesting when he wasn't a sort of fill in for Matthew. Tom used to have real views and opinions about things. Now he can't even decide to leave Downton without pondering it for years. I actually think it might be for the best to have him go somewhere other than Downton just to see if Robert actually misses him.

 

Daisy is a character that I honestly could do without at this point.

 

Honestly this show needs *something to happen*

[Avaleigh]

Daisy is a character that I honestly could do without at this point.

 

 

Is there any particular reason why people don't think that she'll be the character who leaves in the CS?

 

This stuff about Tom isn't dying, he may come back, he could come back, etc is just pointless and I don't know why he's saying such stuff. It actually makes me think less of him.

 

 

I don't have any problems with Allen Leech leaving if that's what he wants to do. The rage that Dan Stevens has had to deal with was pretty unsettling to me and I hope that if AL does choose to go that fans will keep the bitterness on social media to a minimum.

 

I also hope and believe that Tom will end up staying at Downton. I'd miss his presence and have enjoyed his character very much these past two seasons. Sybbie is also easily my favorite of the three kids but that's probably because she's the oldest and is starting to develop a personality. The scene with Sybbie and Robert playing Chutes and Ladders was one of my favorite scenes from this season so I'd definitely miss her a bunch.

 

I think the show can still work without Tom since he doesn't really have much of a storyline but I'll be disappointed if this is what ends up happening.

 

What would be the point of the show including the scene where Tom doesn't have an answer for Sybbie about why they should leave if it's supposed to set up the idea that a move will be better for them? Shouldn't they have used that scene to have Tom explain to Sybbie why it's better for them to leave rather than giving the implication that there's no real reason for them to go to America? 

[ZoloftBlob]

Is there any particular reason why people don't think that she'll be the character who leaves in the CS?

 

My only logic against it being her is that it leaves the downstairs crew with no one under 45 except Anna who is likely to be embroiled in a crime plot.

 

The rage that Dan Stevens has had to deal with was pretty unsettling to me and I hope that if AL does choose to go that fans will keep the bitterness on social media to a minimum.

 

Yeah, its what two years out and people are still bitching at him. Night at the Muesuem 3 has all sorts of reasons to be awful but damn. And honestly, for all that Allen Leech has been given to do the last two years on this show, I really can't begrudge him moving on if that's what he ends up doing.

[ElizaD]

I don't have any problems with Allen Leech leaving if that's what he wants to do. The rage that Dan Stevens has had to deal with was pretty unsettling to me and I hope that if AL does choose to go that fans will keep the bitterness on social media to a minimum.

 

It's inevitable that some people will behave poorly, but IMO the reaction to Stevens was an exception. Brown-Findlay left in the same season and she also played a popular character, but the reaction was "why did Sybil have to die/how could Fellowes do that?" People weren't blaming the actress because she kept quiet, acted professionally and gave a good performance in her final episode. It was only the week before the death that the more spoiler-aware viewers on the net started getting suspicious something might happen to Sybil. Stevens, on the other hand, was pretty widely perceived as having stopped caring about his role on Downton and even as trashing the show, so there was this tension of "is he going to leave/does he hate the show we love?!" long before the Christmas episode. Matthew's death and Stevens'/Fellowes' comments about it became a much bigger deal than Sybil's death and Brown-Findlay's wish to move on to something different. If Tom leaves, I think Leech is more likely to get the sad but appreciative reaction that Brown-Findlay got.

[ZoloftBlob]

People weren't blaming the actress because she kept quiet, acted professionally and gave a good performance in her final episode.

 

I believe Jessica Findley Brown didn't have Julian Fellowes doing interviews on how he begged her to stay and offered her whatever she wanted just to get one more episode out of her and she turned him and all of Downton fandom down.

 

Although I think Dan Stevens has something of a douchebag personality in the interviews I've seen of him, I haven't seen him speak about Downton, particularly during the post season three phase that wasn't respectful. I don't consider stating he was unhappy with the writing to be unprofessional, particularly when the writing for his character dropped to sophomoric soap opera stunts and cheeseball moments. For all that he's called out as unprofessional, what did he actually do that makes him unprofessional? He fulfilled his contract, he didn't walk off the set in a fit, he gave reasonable notice. Every interview I saw or read of him discussing his leaving, he was pretty clearly acknowledging there was a good chance he was walking away from the best role he'd ever get.  Fellowes is the one who turned it into Stevens walking away despite Fellowes begging him, which considering Stevens fulfilled his contract, was a pretty unprofessional way to handle someone not wanting to resign for several more years.

 

I think I genuinely can't blame Stevens now for his occasional shot at Downton when I can't read an article about him where there's not a Downton fan in the comments ridiculing him. And to keep it on point, I haven't seen Allen Leech say anything that I would consider disrespectful at all and like Stevens, he has every right to consider his own career needs. Downton started its downswing in season three, especially with Tom because it took away any real reason for Tom to continue hanging around and Allen Leech has spent two years standing around with nothing to do.

[Tetraneutron]

On the one hand, it's ridiculous that Tom hasn't left Downton and the show knows it. They try to dance around it, but they've acknowledged he hasn't has a relationship since Sybbie was born, and she's 4. And other than a one-night stand with a crazy gold-digger and an interminable friendship with a shrew, hasn't even wanted one. The character as written would have gone to America by now. On the other hand, the show needs Tom. As a Sybil/Matthew combo he provides balance to the family scenes, smoothes out Mary and Edith's sharp edges and lets the audience know how they feel by being the only one either can actually talk to, and he provides a modern, middle-class perspective that serves as the audience entryway into the Downton world. The family would be a lot harder for the audience to root for if everyone was clinging to a dying system about everything.

 

So the show is stuck. Tom can't stay, and they can't afford to get rid of him. Best to keep him in this ridiculous neutered holding pattern.

[Eolivet]

Don't have a source, but I just read from those who follow Julian Ovenden on Twitter that he's confirmed he will not be in the Christmas Special.

 

If he's not even mentioned by Mary, I don't see how Blake comes back next year as any kind of serious suitor. Viewers' memories just aren't that long.

 

I still think Branson (old habits die hard) goes to America offscreen and comes back in season 6, possibly with a new American wife and new ideas for reviving Downton. It's a way they get around the "he should've left by now," but also "the show can't do without him." Taking his grand adventure when the show isn't on. Win/win.

[Andorra]

After seeing the latest CS clip on youtube, I'm a bit hopeful. I think Robert will get ill and that will be the reason for Tom to stay after all.

There is a scene on the CS preview on the DVD where Cora tells him to look after himself. And now in the new clip that was aired on ITV this morning, he squirms and looks as if he is in pain. Cora asks him if he is alright and he tells her to stop fussing.

 

I think that will be the "lump in the throat" at the end of the CS, but the "happy", "christmassy", "heartwarming" thing will be Tom staying.

 

I can't imagine Allen Leech, Rob Collier and Hugh Bonneville telling us that the CS will not destroy "anyone's Christmas"  and that it will he "heartwarming" and "leave us with a lump in our throat but only in a very good way" if Tom was leaving. They know there are many, many fans out there, who would cry their hearts out if he left!

[saki]

I can't imagine Allen Leech, Rob Collier and Hugh Bonneville telling us that the CS will not destroy "anyone's Christmas"  and that it will he "heartwarming" and "leave us with a lump in our throat but only in a very good way" if Tom was leaving. They know there are many, many fans out there, who would cry their hearts out if he left!

 

Tom is insanely popular on here but I'm not convinced that he is that popular amongst the viewership as a whole.  Certainly, the chat at my workplace and on the British forums doesn't suggest so.  That said, Julian Fellowes clearly adores Tom/Allen Leech - hence keeping him around for so long when it made no sense - so I do agree that he won't actually leave.

[Andorra]

Tom is insanely popular on here but I'm not convinced that he is that popular amongst the viewership as a whole.  Certainly, the chat at my workplace and on the British forums doesn't suggest so.  That said, Julian Fellowes clearly adores Tom/Allen Leech - hence keeping him around for so long when it made no sense - so I do agree that he won't actually leave.

 

Well, I'm on - I think - every board about Downton that exists and he IS very popular everwhere. Of course there're always people who don't like a character, but Tom is one of the few characters who has very few haters. There are a few polls online if Tom should leave or stay and in every single poll more than 90% say Tom should stay. There are also several polls about the favourite characters of Downton and Tom is always among the top 5. The last I saw (Radiotimes) he was No 3 after Mrs Hughes and Mary and even more popular than the Dowager http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2014-09-17/who-is-the-best-downton-abbey-character-of-all-time

[saki]

It's obviously a matter of opinion but I feel like lots of people think Tom is "nice" and would, on balance, prefer him to stay but I don't think many people (apart from you, Andorra) watch the show primarily for Tom.

[Andorra]

It's obviously a matter of opinion but I feel like lots of people think Tom is "nice" and would, on balance, prefer him to stay but I don't think many people (apart from you, Andorra) watch the show primarily for Tom.

 

The main recipe for the success of Downton is that everyone has something or someone to watch it for. Almost EVERYONE I know (and I know a lot of Downton fans) has his or her favourite. I personally know a few fans who stopped watching after Sybil died, because they watched it for Sybil. A few stayed on and from there on just watched it for Tom. A few others stopped watching, because Matthew kicked the bucket, because he was their favourite and again a few remained viewers, because they liked Mary.

My neighbour's daughter watches the show because she loves Mary, my daughter loves Anna,my Mom loves Bates, my husband likes Daisy. My best friend is a fan of Edith, another friend is a "Thomas" shipper and yet another friend is a huge fan of Mrs Hughes and Carson.

 

They all care about the other characters in a way, too (as I do), but they MAINLY watch the show for their favourite. So I don't think I'm in any way different than most viewers.

 

And if you look on social media or on tumblr, you'll see that Tom has a lot of fans. Allen Leech is by far the most popular actor of the cast on twitter, which is of course also due to the fact that he funny, but if you see how many anxcious tweets he recieved since the last episode aired of people who said "Tom can't leave or it will destroy my Christmas", you'll know he is not just one of many for a lot of viewers. Also go on facebook to the Downton Abbey page and look how many people left a reaction there. The last time I checked it were over a thousand people who wrote they hope Tom would stay and that it would be awful if he left.

 

Look at the amount of fanfiction written about Tom. There're currently 1.100 stories about him on fanfiction.net. Only Mary tops that with 1.300 stories. If you want to compare: Anna or Bates have about 800, Edith has 400.

 

So don't underestimate his popularity just because you don't share it. I'm always amazed how someone can possibly find Anna and Bates interesting, but they have their loyal shippers, too and people who really are still invested in that boring storyline of theirs. Even here on the board people speculate about Green's death, when I personally think it is the most boring not discuss worthy storyline ever.

 

But that's just it. Different storylines and different characters for different tastes and different viewers.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Andorra

[shipperx]

I truly hope that he doesn't go. It would put a major dent in my enjoyment. As the one I do not watch for is Mary, the loss of any of the ones I do watch the show for will be a blow (one reason being that the more the main cast is winnowed down the more MARY-centric the show becomes, and I really don't want the show to become (any MORE) all. about. Mary. )

Don't go, Tom. Don't go!

Edited December 10, 2014 by shipperx

[saki]

Shipperx - I also very much don't watch the show for Mary.  That said, at the moment, a lot of Tom's screentime is used to prop up Mary in some way - Julian Fellowes likes to use him, after Mary has just said/done something horrible, to say "Mary is nice, really!"  It's hard for me to see how they can give him a realistic, interesting storyline at Downton because it just makes no sense that he is there.  

[DianeDobbler]

After a bit of reflection, I'm thinking they married Rose off rather hastily in response to the belly flop of the Season of Mary's Suitors, and we are indeed in for Mary/Tom. I don't foresee a triangle with Edith; rather, they'll resurrect Greggson. Even if they didn't, I don't believe that in the world of Downton Abbey an illegitimate child will be considered much of an issue.

[saki]

Well, the Crawleys don't seem to have much of a social life so it's hard to see who would disapprove of Edith's illegitimate child anyway!

I agree that Rose was married off so abruptly because they wanted to give us a happy romantic episode or two and that clearly wasn't working with Mary and the Mary men.

 

I'm less sure about whether we'll end up with Mary/Tom - I think it might happen, not least because I don't see how the show can work if Mary marries someone who also has an ancestral home and, if she's not going to marry another aristocrat, then why not Tom.  But I still find myself stuck on the fact that Mary refused to marry Matthew when it was possible that he wouldn't be an Earl - I don't think she's changed enough to marry an Irish Catholic ex-chauffeur.

[Avaleigh]

Mary didn't refuse to marry Matthew when she thought it was possible that he wouldn't become the earl. I see this repeated a lot but it didn't actually happen.

Mary was already considering the proposal. She was arguing in favor of the match only she had two different people weighing in who made her feel insecure about the issue and the direction in which she was leaning. With Rosamund Mary argued that she and Matthew got along very well and that she thought he might well be successful enough even without the title so that it wouldn't matter. Rosamund was the family member who made it seem ridiculous that Mary would even consider Matthew. It isn't as though Rosamund's word /opinion/support is meaningless or ignored by the family. We see that Edith respects Rosamund's opinion as well. Even Violet acknowledges the role Rosamund played in the Mary Matthew break up during the first season.

Violet for her part encourages Mary to be duplicitous with Matthew in terms of accepting him based on a wait and see attitude regarding the earldom. Mary doesn't feel right with the idea of treating Matthew this way, but at the same time she is yet again having a family member who is putting doubt into her head over the idea of accepting Matthew with an open heart without caring about the earl/Downton/position-in-society factor. Violet is making it seem like she would be foolish not to hedge her bets so to speak and I definitely think Mary took that to heart. Mary decided to be honest about the confusion she felt regarding her indecisiveness yet she doesn't seem to get credit for this even though she was ultimately straightforward with Matthew about her feelings.

She never makes a decision one way or the other. She tells Matthew "you can't be sure that I was going to refuse you." Matthew admits that the hesitation told him all he needed to know. This is fair enough but the point is that she didn't refuse him plus she gave comments to indicate that she was leaning towards taking him.

I can see religion being an issue though since there's no way that Mary would not have an opinion about something like that nor can I see her simply rolling over on the matter as Sybil did just because she knows it's what Tom wants.

ETA

I also have to agree with the speculation that Edith's new beau will eventually become the new estate agent. I can't think why else he'd be in that occupation since we know Julian Fellowes isn't exactly known for his subtlety.

At the end of the day I think Mary is confident enought that she's secure enough in her own rank that she isn't after a title the way she once was. Agreed though that the Catholic issue could be a dealbreaker.

All that being said whatever Mary/Tom hopes I had were pretty much dashed during this episode. If they wanted to properly set this up some moment between them should have happened by now to at least put it on the table.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Avaleigh

[saki]

Avaleigh - yes, it's probably not quite fair to say that Mary turns down Matthew's proposal.  But she makes it clear that she won't agree to marry him, if he is not going to be the Earl.  She takes months to think about his proposal and, even when he withdraws it, she still has the opportunity (I think) to say yes, but she won't.  I don't think the show could have been more clear that she didn't love him enough to commit to him if he wasn't going to be an Earl and wealthy.  I don't think Mary is easily influenced, I think Rosamund and the Dowager are voicing doubts that she already has in her mind.  

As I say, I think it would have to be made clear how and why Mary has changed if she would now marry an Irish chauffeur.

[Tetraneutron]

The situations are different. Mary's reluctance to marry Matthew if he wasn't going to be Earl wasn't about his status as much as it was about keeping Downton in the family. From the beginning, that's what Mary wanted. Now that it's secure, she's free to marry entirely for love or attraction.

 

If it was all about title for her, would she have even considered Gillingham? I don't remember if the show made clear if he was going to have a title (Blake was), but they did say his family lost its estate and it ws now a girls; school, and she wasn't fazed by it. I always thought the idea of her marrying Tom didn't make sense for a number of reasons, but it's not totally out of the question her next suitor could be a commoner. It might be interesting because it would be SOMETHING different.

[Andorra]

If it was all about title for her, would she have even considered Gillingham? I don't remember if the show made clear if he was going to have a title (Blake was), but they did say his family lost its estate and it ws now a girls; school, and she wasn't fazed by it. I always thought the idea of her marrying Tom didn't make sense for a number of reasons, but it's not totally out of the question her next suitor could be a commoner. It might be interesting because it would be SOMETHING different.

 

Gillingham HAD a title. He was Lord Gillingham. Blake didn't have a title and would only get one when he inherited the fortune of his uncle in Ulcer.

 

Or do you mean fortune? There Blake's prospect were much better. Gillingham had to get rid off his house to pay the death duties when his father died. He was able to hold the estate though, so he wasn't poor. Blake will inherit a large fortune though.

[Tetraneutron]

I wasn't clear, sorry. I meant the show wasn't clear about whether Gillingham would inherit an estate and become the Earl/Marquis/Duke of whatever. Have that sort of position. As long as his father is Lord Something, he's Lord something, but only of he's the oldest son does he get to be Earl (or whatever) of Something. In other words, whether he's like Mary or Edith, who are Lady Something, but can't transfer that to their kids unless they marry the right person and don't haver any land to go with it, or whether Gillingham's like Blake or Matthew, who will one day be the Earl of Wherever.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Obviously