S02.E07: Convergence

[Uncle JUICE]

15 hours ago, Glade said:

I think a lot of viewers need to look inside themselves and ask deeper question to figuire out why they can never empathize with young female characters, especially young women who are POC or LGBTQ, instead of always blaming it on everyone else.  It's not "wokeness" or "the writing."   

If you take out the absurd notion that the mere existence of POC or LGTBQ+ characters ('wokeness' in this context as I understand it) makes it difficult to empathize with the young female character, isn't the only thing left the writing, or the performance? I'm not sure it's fair to blame "me" for suddenly questioning why I rooted for this character who is now senselessly off the rails, going on ill advised revenge quests and saying things like "Fuck the community" and ignoring her "uncle" who is pinned down, to chase after a goal that never made any sense and will be nearly impossible to accomplish? Is it my fault as the viewer that the writers put her in a boat, threw her overboard, had her wash up, get captured, nearly killed, then escape, for no reason or profit? This was a poorly written finale to a mid-quality season after a fantastic first season, one in which I had zero issues empathizing with Ellie. Or Bill and Frank. Seems to me the writing is the first place to look. 

[tennisgurl]

That was certainly a whole lot for a finale, I feel like we had three episodes squished into one finale, and now it looks like we get an Abby season? In the six or seven years it will take to finish it? 

Ellie really was not at her best in this one, which I guess is the point, but I swear I wanted to reach through the screen and shake her. I know its cliche, but does she really think that Joel would be happy with this? Putting herself and Dina, who he also deeply cared for, in danger? Not caring about what happens to Tommy and their community? Its not even just that she's putting her revenge over everything, but she's also just being stupid, stupider than someone who has survived this long traveling around this world. 

Poor Jesse, I knew he was doomed as soon as he found out that he was going to be a father, but I was crossing my fingers that he would at least make it until next season. Jesse was truly speaking for me the whole episode, Ellie really is being ridiculous, and she is ignoring the responsibility she has to her girlfriend and the child she promised to help raise. I also think that Ellie was really stretching it when she tried to call Jesse a hypocrite for not wanting to help the WLF guy, there really was not a whole lot they could have done without getting caught, and look how it went. 

It was nice at least that Ellie and Jesse made up and he was finally getting through to her...and then Abby showed up and shot Jesse in the head, and now Abby has killed someone else that Ellie cares about. As annoyed as I might be at Ellie, Abby can fuck right off with that "I let you live, how dare you" crap, is she really so shocked that, after she made Ellie watch as she cruelly beat her father to death, she might be a little bit upset? 

I really think that this season needed more episodes, the shorter season has really hurt this show in my opinion. I get that some shows benefit from short seasons, and I get that prestige shows have bigger budgets and bigger actors who probably wont sign on for longer seasons, but it can make seasons feels rushed the way this one was, and can take away from the world building and complex character work that made the first season so good. A solid ten seasons I think would have better built up Seattle, made us feel more for Ellie, allowed us to explore these new zombie variations, and given more time to know Abby's cohorts. Its especially annoying because we know that we will have to wait years for the next season to start, which is another modern television thing that can be frustrating. You end up waiting literally years for a show to return and then when it does, it feels like it just started when it ends again. 

[marceline]

5 hours ago, Zaffy said:

It would be fun though if the subscribers in these platforms did their little rebellion, like "ok, I cancel my subscription, see you again whenever the season is out". I actually did that.  I know we should rebel for much more serious issues, but hey it is a start.

I do that all the time. I think of it as rebalancing my streaming budget depending on content. I just canceled Peacock because NBC cancelled The Irrational and Found. I've debating cancelling Max but I probably won't just so I can keep rewatching The Pitt and Somebody Somewhere. I canceled AMC after the last season of Interview With a Vampire and when the new season comes back I'll resubscribe.

[MJ Frog]

7 hours ago, mrspidey said:

That's what the Abby part is for. For you to see wether she really is a sadist or just another traumatized victim, deserving a chance to do better.

Given the manner in which she took her revenge, that's going to be a tough sell. Trauma as an excuse for bad behavior only gets you so far.

[Zaffy]

3 hours ago, MJ Frog said:

10 hours ago, mrspidey said:

That's what the Abby part is for. For you to see wether she really is a sadist or just another traumatized victim, deserving a chance to do better.

Given the manner in which she took her revenge, that's going to be a tough sell. Trauma as an excuse for bad behavior only gets you so far.

I was reading an article by a criminal psychologist on how TV shows/interprets killers.
The main argument was that just social media or trends don't make you one, but having a seriously traumatized past or /and being psychotic does.

The show is quite nihilistic, it assumes that under the conditions this is how people will act. Joel did horrible things, Ellie also  (like Nora) and Abby has. The show has a point, cause in a world like TLOU's usually the good people die first and the bad ones prevail. The TV "antihero" trend has been very popular the last couple decades and  it is ok to be a monster as long as you can also be a bit sympathetic and have the viewers routing for you.
Although I doubt the spirit of TLOU story is so philosophized, in a game  like this you need to pass levels and kill kill kill. So you create villains and antiheros.
I guess they will try to make Abby an antihero, someone that had a tough life, yadda yadda yadda. I still think she is just a psychotic person and there is no redemption for her, at least not from me.
This is a very overrated first source material, this is not literature, it doesn't matter how well made it was, the main purpose is to spend dozens of hours trying to pass levels and "kill kill kill".

[Tachi Rocinante]

Abby doesn't know that Ellie is the "Immune One", does she?

The other girl only figured it out because of the spores.

[aghst]

4 minutes ago, Zaffy said:

This is a very overrated first source material, this is not literature, it doesn't matter how well made it was, the main purpose is to spend dozens of hours trying to pass levels and "kill kill kill".

 

Yeah the most popular gameplay mechanic is to go around taking down the "baddies."

So over the course of a few hours of gameplay, you've maybe killed dozens of humans, though they may be bad people.

It's cartoon violence, the game player doesn't think of their kills as human beings, just some obstacle to eliminate, to advance in the game.

They could have made a cinematic game of exploration but those kinds of games don't sell nearly as much.

I think one of the reasons these games were popular were that there were several traumatic moments, which stand out versus games in general.  The multiple killings though is routine.

Soldiers come back from battles with PTSD and that's even when they've not been injured or seen their fellow soldiers killed or maimed in front of their eyes.

But in film, TV and now video games, there's no place for PTSD, even though they added the Gail character, which I understand wasn't in TLOU games.

They're not going to have multiple sessions of Joel or some other character talking to Gail, because none of these characters can opt out of duties which can lead to violence.

But maybe we won't see more of Gail now that her character and Eugene served their purpose in showing the rift between Joel and Ellie.

[millennium]

On 5/26/2025 at 12:12 PM, HerkyJerky said:

Do you know who she reminds me of (and this is an OLD reference), but Jasmine from Angel!

Gina Torres was a lot hotter.  I could almost understand why everyone did her bidding, lol.

[mcree]

3 hours ago, Tachi Rocinante said:

Abby doesn't know that Ellie is the "Immune One", does she?

Abby actually never really cared about the cure at all: not at the first scene at the graves, not when killing Joel. It never came up.

Interestingly, while Abby is pointing the gun, Ellie says four sentences in the show, out of these five in the game: "I know why you killed Joel. He did what he did to save me. There's no cure because of me. I'm the one that you want. Just let him [Tommy] go."

Abby doesn't give a shit in either case, but even that oblique mention was removed for the show. So unless Abby later, during some quiet moment of contemplation, puts it all together, maybe she still doesn't know.

 

[PurpleTentacle]

23 hours ago, Dev F said:

I mean, the obvious complication with filming both stories simultaneously is that they would need two full crews, and thus not only twice the filming budget but also double the amount of qualified talent behind the camera. That would be harder than just shooting for twice as long, not easier!

There is quite a bit of synergy you can leverage. You don't need double the catering team, double the makeup trucks, you can allocate people dynamically for where they are needed that day according to how complicated the shoot is etc.

Films and TV do paralel shooting all the time and there is a reason they do it. Because it saves quite a bit of time and money.

Also yes, they had two years, they could have also shot 14 episodes in sequence instead of paralel, you are absolutely right about that one. I was just suggesting an option that would have saved time and money.

23 hours ago, Dev F said:

I don't know why we would assume that the amount of story the producers can fit into one season is primarily an artistic choice on their part and not mostly the result of time and budget constraints beyond their control.

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say here. Are you including the studio higher ups in "producers"? Because then that is entirely their choice. There is no law of nature that says you can only shoot 7 episodes in 2 years.

[mrspidey]

10 hours ago, aghst said:

 

Yeah the most popular gameplay mechanic is to go around taking down the "baddies."

So over the course of a few hours of gameplay, you've maybe killed dozens of humans, though they may be bad people.

It's cartoon violence, the game player doesn't think of their kills as human beings, just some obstacle to eliminate, to advance in the game.

Actually, this is where TLOU2 differs. When you kill someone during gameplay, you can often hear the other npcs in the vicinity shouting stuff like, "Fuck, they got Daniel!". It makes you realize Ellie didn't just kill a nameless entity, but someone who had a name and people who cared about them. 

Also, you don't have to kill everyone. Most fights can (and on the highest difficulty should) be avoided by stealthing. 

Edited May 28 by mrspidey

[Dev F]

55 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

There is quite a bit of synergy you can leverage. You don't need double the catering team, double the makeup trucks, you can allocate people dynamically for where they are needed that day according to how complicated the shoot is etc.

Films and TV do paralel shooting all the time and there is a reason they do it. Because it saves quite a bit of time and money.

I'm not aware of many shows that have multiple first-unit crews shooting different episodes simultaneously. As far as I know, it's generally reserved for massive, overbudgeted epics like Game of Thrones and Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power. And if the argument is, "Well, they could've shelled out for more first units for The Last of Us too," that's certainly true, but you can hardly hold the show's creators responsible for not being given a bigger budget!

I know there's also another form of parallel shooting that's become increasingly common called "block shooting," but it's kind of the opposite of what you were suggesting: it involves using the same director and crew to shoot multiple episodes on the same locations because they do overlap. And even that is a money-saving technique in comparison to shooting every episode individually; it's not a miracle budgetary trick that allows you to film twice as many episodes for the same cost. So, again, the argument would sort of boil down to "Why didn't the show's creators simply make HBO give them more time and/or money?"

Quote

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say here. Are you including the studio higher ups in "producers"?

No, of course I'm not, why would I? My whole point is that the length of the season shouldn't be considered a creative choice, since it's almost certainly imposed on the show's producers by the bean-counters at HBO. I obviously regard them as two separate groups, and judge the success of the producers by how well they managed to bring across the story within the limitations established by the bean-counters.

[paigow]

Budget Solution: Ask Tom Cruise to visit HBO... as Les Grossman

[Zaffy]

4 hours ago, mrspidey said:

Actually, this is where TLOU2 differs. When you kill someone during gameplay, you can often hear the other npcs in the vicinity shouting stuff like, "Fuck, they got Daniel!". It makes you realize Ellie didn't just kill a nameless entity, but someone who had a name and people who cared about them. 

Also, you don't have to kill everyone. Most fights can (and on the highest difficulty should) be avoided by stealthing. 

I wonder how many players really paid attention to the npcs in the vicinity or cared about poor Daniel a digital character in a game with a lot of killing?

[mrspidey]

2 hours ago, Zaffy said:

I wonder how many players really paid attention to the npcs in the vicinity or cared about poor Daniel a digital character in a game with a lot of killing?

That's on the players, though, not the game.

[DigitalCount]

22 hours ago, MJ Frog said:

Given the manner in which she took her revenge, that's going to be a tough sell. Trauma as an excuse for bad behavior only gets you so far.

Yeah, I have a friend who told me his favorite character (in the games) is Abby, so I imagine he's looking forward to this coming season. I myself haven't gotten to the point where I'm a fan yet. I'm still stuck on her weird definition of righteousness where simply shooting someone is a sign of the darkest depravity, but torturing someone to death is justice being served. I'll still be watching, but it might be hard to take, especially with her killing possibly the most moral character in the show.

Spoiler

On another note, from what I'm given to understand, the death of Mel is different in the game, and not particularly flattering to Ellie's character or mental state. I'm reminded of how Game of Thrones toned down some of the characters' worst acts in a way that made sense for the medium; I agreed with those changes having read the source material, and as someone who hasn't played this game, I think I'm fine with this decision too. Softening Ellie does make Abby worse in comparison though.

 

[Dev F]

I think I'm starting to piece together what happened with this episode, and why it left a lot of people with mixed feelings, at best, about season 2.

According to an anonymous insider who has been dead-on with other spoilers this season, the confrontation between Ellie and Owen/Mel was completely reshot. You can also find rehearsal footage of what looks like the stunt performers for Ellie and Owen running through the original version of the scene. It's much more brutal, involving Ellie standing over a kneeling Owen as they struggle for Ellie's gun, Ellie gouging Owen's eye, and finally Ellie shooting Owen twice in the chest.

The more I think about it, the more it feels like this scene—or, at least, a scene that shows Ellie's revenge quest culminating in this level of brutality—is what Ellie's entire arc for the season was meant to lead up to. It starkly bookends the smiley "Day One" Ellie of episode 4. It builds on the violence of the Nora scene at the end of episode 5 instead of weirdly backing away from it, as I complained earlier in the thread, and it cuts against the mushiness of Ellie's I didn't kill Nora, I just tortured her assurances to Dina by exposing them as self-serving hypocrisy. It even pays off the scene in episode 1 where Ellie is training to take down a bigger man in close combat.

It seems like someone, whether the showrunners or HBO, got squeamish about taking Ellie to that place and they reshot the scene to pull her back, but to my mind it left a pretty enormous hole in her arc for the season.

Edited May 28 by Dev F

[maddie965]

It was me!

Just kidding. Knowing that the episode was supposed to be even more violent makes me realize I'm really out. The Last of Us had only one season, with a bonus episode, as far as I'm concerned.

Edited May 29 by maddie965

[baldryanr]

14 hours ago, Dev F said:

It builds on the violence of the Nora scene at the end of episode 5 instead of weirdly backing away from it, as I complained earlier in the thread, and it cuts against the mushiness of Ellie's I didn't kill Nora, I just tortured her assurances to Dina by exposing them as self-serving hypocrisy.

I'd say that not killing Nora was even more cruel.  Imagine if Abby had just left when Ellie burst in - only Hollywood healing would have left Joel as anything other more than a permanently crippled wreck, and he used up his health potion last season when he went from almost dead to fighting baddies in a few minutes.

Also, hopefully all of those people (including Ellie herself) babbling about Ellie becoming a parent can slow their roll a little.  Dina and Ellie have been an official couple for two days, so maybe getting married and coparenting is jumping the gun a little.  The two clearly have a lot to sort out.

[maddie965]

On 5/28/2025 at 5:07 PM, Dev F said:

I think I'm starting to piece together what happened with this episode, and why it left a lot of people with mixed feelings, at best, about season 2.

According to an anonymous insider who has been dead-on with other spoilers this season, the confrontation between Ellie and Owen/Mel was completely reshot. You can also find rehearsal footage of what looks like the stunt performers for Ellie and Owen running through the original version of the scene. It's much more brutal, involving Ellie standing over a kneeling Owen as they struggle for Ellie's gun, Ellie gouging Owen's eye, and finally Ellie shooting Owen twice in the chest.

The more I think about it, the more it feels like this scene—or, at least, a scene that shows Ellie's revenge quest culminating in this level of brutality—is what Ellie's entire arc for the season was meant to lead up to. It starkly bookends the smiley "Day One" Ellie of episode 4. It builds on the violence of the Nora scene at the end of episode 5 instead of weirdly backing away from it, as I complained earlier in the thread, and it cuts against the mushiness of Ellie's I didn't kill Nora, I just tortured her assurances to Dina by exposing them as self-serving hypocrisy. It even pays off the scene in episode 1 where Ellie is training to take down a bigger man in close combat.

It seems like someone, whether the showrunners or HBO, got squeamish about taking Ellie to that place and they reshot the scene to pull her back, but to my mind it left a pretty enormous hole in her arc for the season.

Now I see your point, Dev F! Great review:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2025/05/29/the-last-of-us-made-one-huge-mistake-in-season-2-and-it-creates-a-major-problem-for-season-3/

[DigitalCount]

I've been watching reactions to this episode, and one thing that I can't help but wonder is if Sgt. Park was supposed to come off as bitter about Isaac favoring Abby so much. One could easily imagine that she'd seen leadership qualities in her son, since she sent him into the doomed hospital level because he was her best soldier. Setting aside the question of if the qualities of a good soldier are also the qualities of a good leader, I was struck by how annoyed she sounded when she disagreed with Isaac about Abby's potential role, like maybe she was thinking that it could have been Leon before his infection, and she was put out that this apparently hadn't even occurred to Isaac. From her perspective, Abby was the sort of person to disappear just before a significant battle, and Leon was the sort of person to tell his mother to seal him away for the good of the community. I'm probably thinking too much about the motives of this character with a handful of scenes across a couple of episodes, but something about the way the actress played that interaction intrigued me.

Edited June 3 by DigitalCount

[baldryanr]

3 hours ago, DigitalCount said:

I'm probably thinking too much about the motives of this character with a handful of scenes across a couple of episodes, but something about the way the actress played that interaction intrigued me.

Or maybe she's just irritated that someone she apparently doesn't like very much is viewed by Isaac as this great leader for no clear reason.  See the scores of people who don't like it when one coworker is the boss's favorite - it doesn't have to mean their kid was passed over.

[Constantinople]

I looked at the conversation between Park and Dixon somewhat differently.

Isaac Dixon sees Abby Normal as his replacement.

What do we know about Isaac?

• He fragged his own men in FEDRA
• Burton, the one guy on his team that he saved, is now as cold blooded and ruthless as anyone
• He tortures defenseless people then loses his temper and kills them when they don't break

What do we know about Abby?

• 3 days after Joel killed Daddy Mengele, she told Owen they'll kill Joel slow
• 5 years later, she doesn't kill Joel in revenge by shooting him, but tortures him for the sake of torturing him
• She does nothing to shield Ellie from seeing that, nor does she do anything to stop Manny from beating the shit out of Ellie so severely, that Ellie can only slide herself across the floor to Joel and later spends 3 months in the hospital
• She ignores her training that unarmed people shouldn't be killed

Isaac may not know the details of what happened, but given what the viewers know about him and Abby, it doesn't reflect well on her that Isaac sees Abby as the future.

[paigow]

On 6/3/2025 at 5:05 PM, Constantinople said:

What do we know about Abby?

• She does nothing to shield Ellie from seeing that, nor does she do anything to stop Manny from beating the shit out of Ellie so severely, that Ellie can only slide herself across the floor to Joel and later spends 3 months in the hospital

Nobody on her team knew there was any special relationship between Joel & Ellie beyond living in the same town.

[Constantinople]

2 hours ago, paigow said:

Nobody on her team knew there was any special relationship between Joel & Ellie beyond living in the same town.

I never said anyone on Abby's team knew about Ellie and Joel's relationship.

I said that Abby tortured one human being in front of a second human being and Abby did nothing while one of her team beat the shit out of the second human being.

[Kel Varnsen]

There was a lot of stupid in this episode, so it's probably good that it's the finale since I need a break from this show.

First you have Jesse, apparently the dumbest first aid guy ever who decides to push the arrow through Dina's leg, without maybe finding a way to shorten the arrow first? Even the dumb girls from Yellowjackets knew to do that. And then he bandages her leg but does it over top of the jeans she had been wearing for the last week at least. Of course him talking about how he can't die was pretty stupid too.

Then we have Ellie who first tries to save the scar kid, somehow. Then decides she will attack the aquarium by taking a tiny little boat, across the water in the worst storm ever. Then she invades with a little 6 shooter revolver gun?

Her getting caught by the scars and then released was also stupid but that was just regular stupid writing that seemed like a way to fill time and add pointless suspense.

On 5/26/2025 at 12:34 PM, iMonrey said:

Episodes like this just remind me I'm watching a video game. Are we to believe Ellie was able to swim to shore after capsizing during a raging storm at sea, fully clothed with a giant backpack on her back? OK then.

That was the stupidest part of all. She also has two guns on her that she didn't lose and boots. I was a pretty strong swimmer in my late teens I was a lifeguard and a competitive swimmer but even for me falling out of a boat like that, in a storm would probably be a death sentence. At least if I couldn't get my backpack off.

Also what exactly was the Convergence supposed to be? Isaac said that the storm would cause a convergence and they would all be dead but didn't really clarify. I thought maybe he meant all the tunnels and sewers would fill with rainwater driving all the infected to the surface. But we didn't see any infected. So was it supposed to be some kind of scar invasion? But where they also have time to hang a random person they find on the water?

Edited June 6 by Kel Varnsen

[astrohip]

6 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Also what exactly was the Convergence supposed to be? Isaac said that the storm would cause a convergence and they would all be dead but didn't really clarify.

A Convergence storm is just a type of storm where different systems meet up. IOW, it's not just "a front moving thru", but several fronts and air flows "converge", creating a storm, potentially larger than a regular storm. So he was saying convergence in the sense of "this is going to be a MF of a storm".

As for the "all dead" comment, I think he meant the showdown that night between WLF and Scars was going to be winner-take-all, and most of them wouldn't survive the battle.

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, astrohip said:

A Convergence storm is just a type of storm where different systems meet up. IOW, it's not just "a front moving thru", but several fronts and air flows "converge", creating a storm, potentially larger than a regular storm. So he was saying convergence in the sense of "this is going to be a MF of a storm".

As for the "all dead" comment, I think he meant the showdown that night between WLF and Scars was going to be winner-take-all, and most of them wouldn't survive the battle.

Ok that kind makes sense although why would you plan a battle during the mother of all storms. When everyone was getting on the boats I thought they were like evacuating to one of the islands in Puget Sound like Bainbridge or Vashon. Which on a side note might make a better place for a base, assuming that infected can't swim.

[DigitalCount]

On 6/6/2025 at 7:43 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

Ok that kind makes sense although why would you plan a battle during the mother of all storms. When everyone was getting on the boats I thought they were like evacuating to one of the islands in Puget Sound like Bainbridge or Vashon. Which on a side note might make a better place for a base, assuming that infected can't swim.

I think they expected the storm to hide their advance. The Seraphites seem more used to the wild areas, so they were probably hoping the storm would even things up for them or at least help more than it would hurt.

[Constantinople]

On 6/6/2025 at 7:43 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

Ok that kind makes sense although why would you plan a battle during the mother of all storms. When everyone was getting on the boats I thought they were like evacuating to one of the islands in Puget Sound like Bainbridge or Vashon. Which on a side note might make a better place for a base, assuming that infected can't swim.

 

11 hours ago, DigitalCount said:

I think they expected the storm to hide their advance. The Seraphites seem more used to the wild areas, so they were probably hoping the storm would even things up for them or at least help more than it would hurt.

Hope is the fool's ally - Lord Corlys Velaryon

I'm not a military expert, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn last night. Memories from articles read long ago and a quick drive on the worldwide information superhighway suggest that amphibious operations and night operations are each very difficult and require disciplined, well trained troops. They're doing both in a storm large enough to swamp their boats with forces "who despite their badass name, are very much sheep" according to Isaac.

[mcree]

On 6/4/2025 at 6:47 PM, Constantinople said:

Abby tortured one human being in front of a second human being and Abby did nothing while one of her team beat the shit out of the second human being

One advantage of streaming is that we don't have to go back to the Blockbuster to rent the DVD again. Things did not happen in the way you imply.

Ellie can hear commotion while entering the lodge, but doesn't see what is happening. We the audience know more. Then she opens the door and enters with her gun drawn. As we hear two more punches, we see her seeing one or both of those. Manny grabs the gun and it goes off, getting everyone's attention and putting an end to the beating. Abby then impales Joel as Ellie watches. But your assertion reads like Abby tortured Joel and made Ellie watch the whole time.

Ellie slashed Manny after he grabbed her gun, and Owen restrains him when he initially tries to retaliate. After Abby kills Joel, the gang starts to leave; Ellie threatens to kill Abby and then everyone else: "You're all going to fucking die!" Manny gives her one swift kick that breaks her ribs, and they all walk out. There is no "while" during which Abby or anyone else would intervene.

On 6/3/2025 at 2:05 PM, Constantinople said:

She ignores her training that unarmed people shouldn't be killed

It's a deliberate exception for Joel, who killed her father and 18 others: "There are just some things everyone agrees are just fucking wrong." Joel nods, BTW