S01.E04: Sic Semper Systema

[AimingforYoko]

Quote

Matt Murdock and Wilson Fisk's darker halves fight to be unleashed.

Muse, I presume?

Loved the Castle-Murdock two-hander. Interesting that the two best scenes of the series so far are a couple of conversations.

Edited March 19 by AimingforYoko

[Mr. R0b0t]

Someone please remind me...who is

Spoiler

Adam

?

[dwmarch]

That conversation with Frank was brutal and intense. I appreciate that after everything the Punisher went through in Daredevil Season 2 and then in two seasons of his own show, he's not doing so great. Weird that he's kind of "whatever" about the police fanboys though. I thought he'd be righteously pissed about that.

White Tiger's medallion goes to his lawyer? I guess they must have entrusted Matt to pick it up for them but unless White Tiger put Matt in his will, Matt isn't necessarily handling his estate. Also, why wouldn't some other authority like DODC or SHIELD or etc. come in to take custody of that special amulet?

Interesting to hear that the cop who I thought was behind the White Tiger murder wasn't actually the one who did it, according to the Daredevil lie detector. Could just be that this particular dude is cold as ice when it comes to that kind of thing though. But if you're having a confrontation with someone in a public place and you have to shove them up against a wall and tell them what time it is, wouldn't your heart rate be at least a little elevated?

@Mr. R0b0t, Adam is a new character. This episode is the first time we have seen him. He's just some dude who was there when Vanessa was lonely and now he's paying the price for it. I am a little sad that it did not turn out to be Adam Warlock, as colorful internet speculation would have had it.

Nice to see the Kingpin eating a proper dinner! I saw sausages on a bed of carbs. Enough of this egg white nonsense!

Also nice that this show isn't overdoing it with humor. I loved Fisk being haunted by "We Built This City" at two separate social events.

[Morrigan2575]

I was expecting Adam to be in much worse shape than that. 

Loved the Frank/Matt scene, need more...or hell just give me Frank going after the Dirty Cops.

I did love the parallels between Fisk and Matt, neither of them can really cage their darker halves because they are the darker halves. Matt and Mayor Fisk are the Masks.  Frank for all his crazy doesn't wear a mask he's The Punisher full time.

[Raja]

7 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I was expecting Adam to be in much worse shape than that. 

Loved the Frank/Matt scene, need more...or hell just give me Frank going after the Dirty Cops.

I did love the parallels between Fisk and Matt, neither of them can really cage their darker halves because they are the darker halves. Matt and Mayor Fisk are the Masks.  Frank for all his crazy doesn't wear a mask he's The Punisher full time.

I suspect Vanessa knows that Wilson is holding him in the dungeon. They were sitting closer together during the therapy session. Meanwhile the way it was framed had me wondering if Matt could hear Adam pleading. But the Kingpin would first shield against that.

[Morrigan2575]

3 minutes ago, Raja said:

I suspect Vanessa knows that Wilson is holding him in the dungeon. They were sitting closer together during the therapy session. Meanwhile the way it was framed had me wondering if Matt could hear Adam pleading. But the Kingpin would first shield against that.

I did like that visual, in the previous episodes there was a gulf between them on the couch and even at the breakfast table. Now they're sitting closer in both settings but, on opposite sides (at least as far as the dinner table went). Very nice touch on the direction/cinematography. 

[Raja]

22 minutes ago, dwmarch said:

That conversation with Frank was brutal and intense. I appreciate that after everything the Punisher went through in Daredevil Season 2 and then in two seasons of his own show, he's not doing so great. Weird that he's kind of "whatever" about the police fanboys though. I thought he'd be righteously pissed about that.

The scene and Frank being part of the go back to Netflix at the last moment brigade with Karen, Foggy and Ayelet Zurer getting the role back makes me fear that it will be like season 2 when The Hand/Elecktra story took over and that might be it for Frank until he punishes in a Daredevil saving scene again.

 

Edited March 19 by Raja

[thuganomics85]

"We Built This City" is probably going to haunt Fisk's dreams for the rest of his life.  Vincent D'Onofrio's facial expressions through both performances was priceless!

Got our first (?) Frank Castle sighting!  While Marvel has always been close to perfect with its casting in general, Jon Bernthal really feels like a case where he was always destined to play this role, because I really can't see anyone else being The Punisher like he is.  Surprised that he is already aware of the police who worship him and hasn't done anything about it yet, but I imagine this is where it is heading towards.  Once again, he and Matt were fantastic together.  They really feel like two people who have a lot of similar goals and methods, but one (Matt) still clings to the idea that justice and the law still have a place with handing out punishment, while the other (Frank) has given up on those ideals and believes that the violent option is the best and maybe only way.  Something to debate about for sure, but with the way things have been going, it's hard not to see Frank's side right now.

So, not only is Matt/Heather already at the "sleeping over at the apartment" phase of their relationship, but that D.A. Sofija was pretty much undressing Matt with her eyes during their "negotiations."  Matt might actually rival the likes of Tony Stark, Bruce Wayne, etc., when it comes to getting his flirt on!

The case with the Leroy character was topical and I get what they were going for, but it was hard to warm up to the character, when he literally starts things off by insulting/making fun of Matt's blindness.  Just doesn't seem like a nice fellow.

Hey, Fisk kept his word about not killing Adam!  Instead, he.... has kidnapped him and locked him in a cage, where he occasionally shows up to taunt him by eating fancy food in front of him.  Never change, Kingpin!

Looks like Matt still has some of his helmets and weapons lying around!

Not sure what to make of the new baddie yet.

[Raja]

8 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

The case with the Leroy character was topical and I get what they were going for, but it was hard to warm up to the character, when he literally starts things off by insulting/making fun of Matt's blindness.  Just doesn't seem like a nice fellow.

With the entire Law & Order first half for a petty crime much of it was filler from the crime scene to the attorneys negotiating. It seemed a long way to get around to Leroy asking Matt to introduce Skrulls spoofing him as a defense.  She-Hulk had already comically played the implications of powered aliens now being all over earth and trying to fit that in with a war against masked vigilantes is proving to be a tough tonal nut to crack.

The story of a store giving away to the cops just as much as a poor perp stole is a subject in itself. Maybe there was more recut to fit in the Karen scenes in the first two episodes and Frank in this one. And if that is the case perhaps leaving it out entirely instead of teasing Matt being excited to be the public defender works better for the show?

In the end I think we are getting the Disney+ MCU equivalent of Andor on the Star Wars side.

[Orbert]

The Netflix series didn't have Matt put on the suit, or even make it, until well into the series.  To me that worked, since it was an origin story.  This series started off as a "soft reboot" or some such, and only became more of a true continuation after all the rewrites and reshoots.  It feels like they're building up to him putting the suit back on, but "building up" and "dragging out" are just a matter of degree.  With an 18-episode arc already mapped out, there was only so much they could change with rewrites/reshoots without things getting really expensive.

I guess I'm trying to say that with him visiting the closet and locker, and starting to work out with the 'chucks, I'm hoping he'll be back in the suit next episode because all this buildup is killing me.  I get it, but I'd also like to get on with it.

[baldryanr]

1 hour ago, Orbert said:

I get it, but I'd also like to get on with it.

I don't know if this is true, but I've always thought most actors dislike having to suit up after the initial project (it's uncomfortable, they have to be in tip top shape all the time, etc.) so we keep seeing them spend more and more time in their civvies.  We shouldn't be at that stage already. 

[dwmarch]

I find myself wondering if "We Built This City" is a deliberate choice to snub Fisk. "We" meaning the people of NYC minus Fisk built this city.

[Raja]

59 minutes ago, baldryanr said:

I don't know if this is true, but I've always thought most actors dislike having to suit up after the initial project (it's uncomfortable, they have to be in tip top shape all the time, etc.) so we keep seeing them spend more and more time in their civvies.  We shouldn't be at that stage already. 

It's been a decade for Charlie Cox and Vincent D'Onofrio  is said to be going with a fat suit for the Kingpin away from the more method actor touches he did as a younger man

[KittenPokerCheater]

3 hours ago, Orbert said:

but "building up" and "dragging out" are just a matter of degree

I feel like they're dragging it out. 

I'm ready for more Daredevil out on the hunt, getting the bad guys.

[MadyGirl1987]

Am I the only one surprised they had Punisher in the episode image that came up when you went to start the episode. Frank's appearance could have been an awesome surprise. Imagine; you are like, "What is Matt doing? Where is he going?" All of a sudden the Punisher starts charging him. It was a good conversation between both of them, though. I do agree with posters who wished Frank would have done more to call out the toxic use of his symbol, both in universe and in a meta way about the real world uses of it in toxic ways.

[Chyromaniac]

9 hours ago, dwmarch said:

I find myself wondering if "We Built This City" is a deliberate choice to snub Fisk. "We" meaning the people of NYC minus Fisk built this city.

I choose to believe he’s annoyed by the song because he knows that the “city” is San Francisco, not New York.

The scene with Fisk and Daniel was really interesting.  Daniel seems to have discovered the secret that countless minions have not- the only way to survive failing the Kingpin is to immediately and thoroughly eat a massive pile of $#!+.

[Winston Wolfe]

On 3/19/2025 at 1:18 AM, thuganomics85 said:

The case with the Leroy character was topical and I get what they were going for, but it was hard to warm up to the character, when he literally starts things off by insulting/making fun of Matt's blindness.  Just doesn't seem like a nice fellow.

As much as I'm loving this "re-boot" (and haven't seen the Netflix version yet), there's too much joking and making fun of Matt's blindness for my taste. Are we now at the point where it's ok to mock the differently abled?

On 3/18/2025 at 11:49 PM, Morrigan2575 said:

On 3/18/2025 at 11:44 PM, Raja said:

I suspect Vanessa knows that Wilson is holding him in the dungeon. They were sitting closer together during the therapy session. Meanwhile the way it was framed had me wondering if Matt could hear Adam pleading. But the Kingpin would first shield against that.

I did like that visual, in the previous episodes there was a gulf between them on the couch and even at the breakfast table. Now they're sitting closer in both settings but, on opposite sides (at least as far as the dinner table went). Very nice touch on the direction/cinematography. 

I also appreciate the fact that during each session Vanessa sits with her body angled away from Wilson. Strong subliminal message there.

[Mr. Sparkle]

6 hours ago, Chyromaniac said:

I choose to believe he’s annoyed by the song because he knows that the “city” is San Francisco, not New York.

I choose to believe he's annoyed because it's one of the worst songs ever written, and it was comically performed terribly.

I rarely laugh out loud, but those scenes were hysterical. D'Onofrio's expressions were perfect! 

[Raja]

6 hours ago, Winston Wolfe said:

As much as I'm loving this "re-boot" (and haven't seen the Netflix version yet), there's too much joking and making fun of Matt's blindness for my taste. Are we now at the point where it's ok to mock the differently abled?

Earlier I was thinking the first half of a Law & Order episode for Leroy. Further back we have the "comic relief" scenes with some of Ms. Davenports clients on Hill Street Blues.  Matt being happiest as a public defender, here helping out a bad guy and comparing the crime to the graft of the cops who took in the same candy seemed to be the only point. I can't recall any character mocking Matt's disability.  Maybe a couple who knew Matt was the Devil of Hell's Kitchen thought he was faking blindness.  Human snark machine, Jessica Jones in The Defenders might come closes to Leroy in this episode.

[Winston Wolfe]

7 hours ago, Raja said:

I can't recall any character mocking Matt's disability.  Maybe a couple who knew Matt was the Devil of Hell's Kitchen thought he was faking blindness.  Human snark machine, Jessica Jones in The Defenders might come closes to Leroy in this episode.

I did see a YT clip where Matt pulls Jessica by the arm, and she tells him, "grab me like that again and I'll hit you so hard you'll be able to see." It's those kinds of little digs that bug me, I guess.

[Orbert]

That scene was from early in their collaboration, though, in the Defenders series.  Jessica and Matt did end up with a good working relationship.  IMO she redeemed herself, eventually.

Leroy was just being obnoxious.  But he too had his reasons.

I don't think two examples across several dozen episodes is an indicator that it's okay to make fun of blind people, at least not on the part of the show-runners.  It is, however, realistic.  Once in a while, you will encounter someone who's going to say something about being assigned a blind public defender, or a blind superhero.  I think it would be more unbelievable if no one ever did say anything.

[Ottis]

On 3/18/2025 at 11:32 PM, Morrigan2575 said:

I did love the parallels between Fisk and Matt, neither of them can really cage their darker halves because they are the darker halves.

So frustrating. This season is going to end with simultaneous shots of DD *finally* putting on his costume and Kingpin putting on his white suit. What lazy pacing. They could have handled the entire White Tiger trial in one ep, and moved us faster to Matt and Fisk returning to who they are.

And this ep answered another one of my earlier comments - that both Fisk and Matt seem much smaller in this series than in Netflix. With the reveal of the full plate of sausages (vs, the smaller portions we saw before), we're on notice that Kingpin is bulking up.

On 3/18/2025 at 11:28 PM, dwmarch said:

That conversation with Frank was brutal and intense.

And while I agree, it was also cliched. I felt like I was watching A Few Good Men with Jack N shouting, "You can't handle the truth!" Yes, yes, being a dark superhero is ... dark. That's sort of endemic to DD's character.

On 3/18/2025 at 11:28 PM, dwmarch said:

Also nice that this show isn't overdoing it with humor. I loved Fisk being haunted by "We Built This City" at two separate social events.

Agree, a restrained Fisk going through the silliness of a politician's day is a hoot. 

On 3/18/2025 at 11:49 PM, Morrigan2575 said:

I did like that visual, in the previous episodes there was a gulf between them on the couch and even at the breakfast table. Now they're sitting closer in both settings but, on opposite sides (at least as far as the dinner table went). Very nice touch on the direction/cinematography. 

I feel like the people making this show believe they are quite clever with their little visual hints and Matt/Fisk duality at the expense of actual plot movement.

On 3/19/2025 at 1:18 AM, thuganomics85 said:

They really feel like two people who have a lot of similar goals and methods, but one (Matt) still clings to the idea that justice and the law still have a place with handing out punishment, while the other (Frank) has given up on those ideals and believes that the violent option is the best and maybe only way.

This is actually what made The Kingpin so interesting in the Netflix DD series. Fisk and DD both come from Hell's Kitchen and both talked about making the place better, but acknowledged they have very different approaches. Of course, after setting that up, Netflix went back to making Fisk an unhinged bad guy and pretty much dropped it. Now this Disney series is picking it up again and spreading it around and including Frank as a damaged piece of it. I hope it lets Fisk use his approach in a realistic way with the city's residents, and doesn't make him a one-note villain again.

On 3/20/2025 at 2:15 AM, Chyromaniac said:

The scene with Fisk and Daniel was really interesting.  Daniel seems to have discovered the secret that countless minions have not- the only way to survive failing the Kingpin is to immediately and thoroughly eat a massive pile of $#!+.

The parallel's to Fisk as mayor to a certain real life political situation are excellent. Daniel knows kissing butt is the way to success, and I still think he is smarter than he looks and I'm not sure he screwed up so much as set a trap for his politico "boss."

[Kel Varnsen]

I am liking this show but I feel like the episodes could easily be 5-10 minutes shorter without making much of a difference. Especially since not much has happened.

Cool to see Frank show up though. Generally I find The Punisher kind of boring and one note. But Bernthal is a great actor so that kind of counteracts it at least somewhat. And I did appreciate that in his Netflix show they made Frank kind of a bad person even before his family was killed.

On 3/19/2025 at 1:18 AM, thuganomics85 said:

So, not only is Matt/Heather already at the "sleeping over at the apartment" phase of their relationship, but that D.A. Sofija was pretty much undressing Matt with her eyes during their "negotiations."  Matt might actually rival the likes of Tony Stark, Bruce Wayne, etc., when it comes to getting his flirt on!

From what I remember from my comics reading days Matt Murdock was definitely a ladies man. Too bad Natasha Romanov didn't live long enough to meet him.