Chit-Chat: The Feels

[Anela]

3 minutes ago, PRgal said:

They talk amongst themselves in their own groups.  They're not "allowed" to share in wider groups (i.e. groups that include women).  They have a limited space.  We have bigger spaces.  Oh, and guys are less likely to seek out therapy, especially private.  Higher in some cultures than others.  

 

p.s. I'm sometimes made to feel guilty here (and on social media) because I have not boycotted/given up subscriptions to major companies that are deemed "evil" because they're siding with the current US government.  I don't boycott because I think it's hypocritical to do so if anyone has shares either in their own investment portfolios or part of their pension plan.  A LOT of people have one or the other.  Or both.

I'm sorry that you've been made to feel guilty. I can't boycott everything, because of what's available to me (and we still owe Amazon money, so they're going to be getting payments for a while, unfortunately). I haven't set foot in Target, for months, but my dad still goes to Walmart. 

I don't have investment portfolios. I know nothing about that. 

[Absolom]

There are times to just let things go by.  I have to do it regularly especially in this thread.  I started to quit reading this thread at all, but after a day or two I was back, but now I skip several posters' comments and entire topics. It's much better for me that way.

Also, I think today I've bailed on as many posts as I've hit send on.  I was editing out the personal stories.  I decided to let one through as it seemed to relate and augment what was being said.  The rest either no one needs to know or no one will really care. 

[bluegirl147]

48 minutes ago, Dimity said:

When did this "boy" mom and "girl" mom business start?  I am guessing around the time families got limited to one or at most two kids.  I had one of each and it never once crossed my mind that I was anything other than "mom".   I was told this was a millionaires family - and by that they meant of course the perfect # and one of each.

Anyway is there any better example of the divisiveness that is ongoing in the US and Canada (and likely most other countries I guess) than this?  We're not just parenting kids anymore, we're specializing, and apparently we aren't willing to acknowledge the benefits that each gender experiences because we're ultra focused on the perceived negatives.

Nothing will ever change if we're handicapping our kids right from the get go with this "us versus them" mentality.

I agree.  Parenting is parenting.  I have a son and now I have granddaughters and honestly I don't see the difference in how I raised him and how he is raising his daughters. 

36 minutes ago, Anela said:

But men ARE allowed to talk about how they feel. Some of them just tell each other that they aren't. 

If a man is made to feel like he can't talk about his feelings then he needs to be around more supportive people.  

5 minutes ago, Absolom said:

 

Also, I think today I've bailed on as many posts as I've hit send on.  I was editing out the personal stories.  I decided to let one through as it seemed to relate and augment what was being said.  The rest either no one needs to know or no one will really care. 

When I post something I always think nobody will care and when they do I'm pleasantly surprised.  

[Anela]

I have written posts, and just let them go, too. I did that a couple of hours ago, in this thread. I can't even remember why now. 

I don't want @PRgal to think that she can't post about what matters to her, though. I don't think anyone wants that, I'm just letting her know. I'm used to being judged for some things, so I'm not always quiet. People can choose to ignore, and I know there will always be someone to correct me, if I'm wrong (kindly, or otherwise). That is something I do like about the internet. 

10 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

When I post something I always think nobody will care and when they do I'm pleasantly surprised.  

Same. 

Edited May 4 by Anela

[Affogato]

50 minutes ago, Anela said:

But men ARE allowed to talk about how they feel. Some of them just tell each other that they aren't. 

https://open.maricopa.edu/culturepsychology/chapter/stereotypes-and-gender-roles/
 

“Cross-cultural studies reveal that children are aware of gender roles by age two or three and can label others’ gender and sort objects into gender categories. At four or five, most children are firmly entrenched in culturally appropriate gender roles (Kane, 1996). When children do not conform to the appropriate gender role for their culture, they may face negative sanctions such as being criticized, bullied, marginalized or rejected by their peers. A girl who wishes to take karate class instead of dance lessons may be called a “tomboy” and face difficulty gaining acceptance from both male and female peer groups (Ready, 2001). Boys, especially, are subject to intense ridicule for gender nonconformity (Coltrane and Adams, 2008; Kimmel, 2000)”

this stuff starts early and is truely pervasive. 

Edited May 4 by Affogato

[Anela]

5 minutes ago, Affogato said:

https://open.maricopa.edu/culturepsychology/chapter/stereotypes-and-gender-roles/
 

“Cross-cultural studies reveal that children are aware of gender roles by age two or three and can label others’ gender and sort objects into gender categories. At four or five, most children are firmly entrenched in culturally appropriate gender roles (Kane, 1996). When children do not conform to the appropriate gender role for their culture, they may face negative sanctions such as being criticized, bullied, marginalized or rejected by their peers. A girl who wishes to take karate class instead of dance lessons may be called a “tomboy” and face difficulty gaining acceptance from both male and female peer groups (Ready, 2001). Boys, especially, are subject to intense ridicule for gender nonconformity (Coltrane and Adams, 2008; Kimmel, 2000)”

this stuff starts early and is truely pervasive. 

And yet I also hear that children are really good about this stuff now, too. 

I'm talking about grown men. 

[Affogato]

Just now, Anela said:

And yet I also hear that children are really good about this stuff now, too. 

I'm talking about grown men. 

Who may not know how to do it. It is learned. They may be embarassed. Trauma may have made them unable to trust. If we are listening, listen to it being a problem. Not just for men, either. 

[bluegirl147]

15 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Who may not know how to do it. It is learned. They may be embarassed. Trauma may have made them unable to trust. If we are listening, listen to it being a problem. Not just for men, either. 

Men and women have more in common than some people would like us to believe. I'm not saying there isn't a gender gap but as mentioned earlier the income gap is much bigger and the source of a lot of the divisiveness in this country.

[Affogato]

19 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

Men and women have more in common than some people would like us to believe. I'm not saying there isn't a gender gap but as mentioned earlier the income gap is much bigger and the source of a lot of the divisiveness in this country.

Well, yes. I’m losing the thread of this discussion.  my final:
 

If you want men to be open and sensitive you will have to teach them to do this and show them it is ok. No this hasn’t happened, any more than in the past decades woman have become equal. These are ongoing issues. Good on you if your kids are free of it and your male friends also, bit I’m betting that is rare. 
 

47 is aggravating an already big income disparity and it is a problem. He is more or less okay with this because he is a poor student of history and has limited concern for others.  It may be a biggie for some more men but a lot of marginalized people of all races and genders have felt the effects of this disparity for years. 
 

some may have thought 47 would help but I suspect there is a long term program to demonize liberal values, including mainstream religious values, and that people found a spokesperson in 47 and he was able to rally a diverse group to their cause. 
 

https://apps.urban.org/features/wealth-inequality-charts/

the wealth inequality charts tell a tale of many things, including a lot of white privilege  

 

Edited May 5 by Affogato

[peacheslatour]

3 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Well, yes. I’m losing the thread of this discussion.  my final:
 

If you want men to be open and sensitive you will have to teach them to do this and show them it is ok. No this hasn’t happened, any more than in the past decades woman have become equal. These are ongoing issues. Good on you if your kids are free of it and your male friends also, bit I’m betting that is rare. 
 

47 is aggravating an already big income disparity and it is a problem. He is more or less okay with this because he is a poor student of history and has limited concern for others.  It may be a biggie for some more men but a lot of marginalized people of all races and genders have felt the effects of this disparity for years. 
 

some may have thought 47 would help but I suspect there is a long term program to demonize liberal values, including mainstream religious values, and that people found a spokesperson in 47 and he was able to rally a diverse group to their cause. 
 

or so I think. 

The ironic thing about unhappy men thinking Trump is going to help them in any way, they are not only mistaken but delusional. He just glorifies the things they think are masculine but that's just theater. I doubt any of us will be better off as long as he's POTUS. Especially not young people and uneducated men.

[Dimity]

3 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

Especially not young people and uneducated men.

Basically if Trump and his billionaire buddies actually get what they want most of those young people and uneducated men will be working minimum wage jobs in factories, with minimal to no benefits and forget about SS down the road.

[Affogato]

9 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

The ironic thing about unhappy men thinking Trump is going to help them in any way, they are not only mistaken but delusional. He just glorifies the things they think are masculine but that's just theater. I doubt any of us will be better off as long as he's POTUS. Especially not young people and uneducated men.

Trump isn’t the cause of he is a symptom. This was setting itself up  before him and will be a problem after. 

[bluegirl147]

10 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

The ironic thing about unhappy men thinking Trump is going to help them in any way, they are not only mistaken but delusional. He just glorifies the things they think are masculine but that's just theater. I doubt any of us will be better off as long as he's POTUS. Especially not young people and uneducated men.

He told uneducated men what they wanted to hear.  That he would bring them high paying jobs that required no education and no skills.  That lie played well in the rust belt where once upon a time those jobs did exist.  But people like Trump's billionaire donors outsourced those jobs overseas so they could get richer.  I don't know what it's going to take for these people to realize he doesn't care about them.

12 minutes ago, Dimity said:

Basically if Trump and his billionaire buddies actually get what they want most of those young people and uneducated men will be working minimum wage jobs in factories, with minimal to no benefits and forget about SS down the road.

And not just them but their kids too.  The billionaire class wants generational poverty to be the new American dream.

[PRgal]

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

 

https://apps.urban.org/features/wealth-inequality-charts/

the wealth inequality charts tell a tale of many things, including a lot of white privilege  

 

The article says this about Asians:

Quote

In 2022, the Survey of Consumer Finances disaggregated data for Asian families for the first time. Asian families’ average wealth was $1.8 million—1.3 times the average wealth of white families. However, more disaggregated local analyses point to large differences in wealth among Asian Americans.

It doesn't really explain WHY without the need to click a few times.  The issue (likely) has to do with the wide gap between some ethnic groups (since the US apparently doesn't separate some ethnic groups in data), access to education, immigration, etc.  I don't know about the US, but in Canada, what I notice is the big difference between people like my parents and say, my son's former nanny.  Both my parents and the nanny are boomers (though the nanny is technically Gen Jones) and Cantonese speaking.  However, my parents came from Hong Kong, finished high school and have at least undergraduate degrees.  Gen Jones Nanny was a refugee of the Vietnam War with a disrupted education (I think she finished the equivalent of Grade 8, maybe Grade 9).  She's done well for herself, though.  Her kids have post-secondary diplomas and she was able to buy a house.  But her lack of English and formal education was unable to open as many doors for her as my parents and my parents' peers.

That said, here's a hilarious Sesame Street clip with a parody Grouch Trump character!

Edited May 5 by PRgal

[JustHereForFood]

2 hours ago, PRgal said:

p.s. I'm sometimes made to feel guilty here (and on social media) because I have not boycotted/given up subscriptions to major companies that are deemed "evil" because they're siding with the current US government.  I don't boycott because I think it's hypocritical to do so if anyone has shares either in their own investment portfolios or part of their pension plan.  A LOT of people have one or the other.  Or both.

The talk about boycotts can be very pick-and-choose, yes. In some cases it helps, in some it might be just virtue-signaling. Like in other cases where it comes to how people spend the money they earned themselves, it is probably better to let everyone do what they want with them as long as they don't break any laws.

[Affogato]

42 minutes ago, JustHereForFood said:

The talk about boycotts can be very pick-and-choose, yes. In some cases it helps, in some it might be just virtue-signaling. Like in other cases where it comes to how people spend the money they earned themselves, it is probably better to let everyone do what they want with them as long as they don't break any laws.

Don’t buy Tesla for now

[Yeah No]

9 hours ago, Affogato said:

Huh? I remember the sixties. Didn’t we get rid of that uniform stuff. Backlash, you say?  

This may shock you, but according to this page, almost 19% of public schools in the U.S. require school uniforms of some kind, most of them in the inner cities. It's even higher among private schools at 57%.

https://www.uniformmarket.com/statistics/school-uniform-statistics

I know cities in CT where this is the case. Most of these have changed over to uniforms in the past decade or so. I remember seeing a piece on it on my local TV news. The rationale is that it promotes discipline and focus on one's studies. 

 

[Affogato]

1 minute ago, Yeah No said:

This may shock you, but according to this page, almost 19% of public schools in the U.S. require school uniforms of some kind, most of them in the inner cities. It's even higher among private schools at 57%.

https://www.uniformmarket.com/statistics/school-uniform-statistics

I know cities in CT where this is the case. Most of these have changed over to uniforms in the past decade or so. I remember seeing a piece on it on my local TV news. The rationale is that it promotes discipline and focus on one's studies. 

 

Snd right off the bat, an element of compliance. Maybe makes it easier to get them to do the next thing. 
 

[Dimity]

Speaking of boycotts I have no idea what impact the Canadian boycott of US products is having but our boycott of travel to the US is definitely being noticed.  We're also not the only country whose citizens are putting the US on their No Travel list.  Some places are actually designating the US as a 'hostile state'.  Never thought I'd see the day that would happen.

 

 

[Yeah No]

9 hours ago, Dimity said:

How young is young?  Because I cannot believe the number of adults I see out and about wearing pajamas.  If kids are slobs (and they are) they're not alone that's for sure!

I see the trend toward dressing like a slob like the trend toward anti-intellectualism. People think being accepted as they are warts and all means being able to put forth their worst selves in every way and you can't criticize it or be told you're too judgmental and don't respect them. I'm sorry but that isn't true and doesn't follow. 

8 hours ago, Cementhead said:

100% in agreement!  People forgot how to act as a society during Covid and basic social norms were lost and haven't returned. 

One of the good things that happened during Covid was that people stopped standing on top of each other in lines and gave each other proper space.  I was so hoping that it would stick around permanently afterwards but sadly, it did not.  People are back to standing so close to me in the grocery store line that I can feel them breathe.

Ugh, I know and I hate that. When they get too close I remove myself from the aisle until they're gone.

And the Covid thing is very true. People are still affected by the time when everyone was locked down. Many are still living like that in some ways. Ordering everything in, staying home, dressing like a slob in sweats and pajamas, ordering unhealthy comfort food takeout all the time, avoiding social situations, going down negative rabbit holes online, etc., and getting angrier and more depressed all the time.

6 hours ago, kittykat said:

I don't think the left needs to change their views on how they portray men.  All our message has been is that one demographic isn't the end all be all of society; that everyone deserves to be treated equal and given the same opportunities.  The right spins that into "the left are man-hating" so of course fragile minds are going to latch onto that. I don't how to open up a discourse on this though.  It's a tough line to walk.  If the left starts messaging towards young white men in order to lure back their votes they need to do it in a way that doesn't look like they're throwing women, POC or LGBTQ+ under the bus or abandoning their causes to placate another.  We need to find a message that somehow communicates that we're all in this together.

I agree with you 100%!!

[Yeah No]

5 hours ago, PRgal said:

Sometimes, I feel like I live in a very different world compared to the majority of you (including my fellow Canadians).  Just thought I wanted to say this (probably for the millionth time) and you guys don’t seem to understand, even though I’m trying hard to understand you. 

FWIW, I think I understand you a little more than you may think and I sympathize!

4 hours ago, Affogato said:

Full privileges, not sure what that means.  White guy with medical disability probably better off than black guy, other things being equal. Doesn’t mean people don’t talk over the guy in the wheelchair.  He is going to be dismissed all the time. Still privileged. 

There are many cases where it becomes ridiculous to try to claim that white privilege somehow still makes one privileged compared to someone else. I bristle at trying to claim that racial privilege (forgive the term) trumps everything else about a person. It's not fair. And that's why poor, uneducated, underprivileged white men are rebelling against it. It's not the one kind of privilege that makes all the others insignificant as if they "don't count". At what point do they count in the progressive view? I don't think they ever do. And that's why we're where we are right now, sorry to say.

My husband is a dyslexic. He never knew it until he was almost 60 - too late to get the education he would have needed to get a good job. His handicap is severe enough that he had difficulty working on computers at all much less achieve a college education. Plus he was dirt poor growing up, poorer than I was. His parents were superintendents of a crappy building in Washington Hts., Manhattan. He grew up around all races on the streets. His parents were looked at like the custodians at the school - the lowest of the low. In fact, the school custodians in NYC, who were largely Black, got paid more and had benefits. Not his parents! He did not grow up thinking he had ANY privilege AT ALL. What good does it do you if a) no one recognizes it and b) you don't even think you have it? Oh and yeah, on top of all of this, he was the "fat kid". Yeah, the one you knew who had the perpetual imaginary "kick me" sign on him. Oh yeah, lots of good his "white privilege" did him in life! He had so much to overcome it isn't funny.

I don't see how someone with all that against him is still called privileged. I don't care if there were dozens of things he could do without a problem that a Black person struggled with. Somehow those things still didn't seem to do him any good. He was struggling with so many things of his own that took away from that privilege that some Black people never had to struggle with - and believe me I knew many Black people that had advantages that he NEVER had - Like Neil DeGrasse Tyson for example, who I went to school with! Neil grew up in a building and neighborhood I only wished I could have! At some point when do progressives recognize that it might just even out in the wash and that everyone's situation is different?? And that it's unfair to make statements that generalize privilege (or lack thereof) based on race to everyone equally? It doesn't work that way!!

[Yeah No]

5 hours ago, Affogato said:

Most white guys were probably not repeatedly lectured by their parents on how to act so they don’t get shot out of hand when stopped by the police for a broken tail light. That is a huge privilege right there. You get to not live in fear. First privilege is not living in fear.  Next, medical treatments optimized for your body. A lot of things your average white guy probably doesn’t even think about are pretty big privileges. 

As a New Yorker growing up and being a young adult in a dicey time and place, both my husband and I had to worry about riding the subways and getting mugged or shot. New York has always been a "great equalizer" as my parents used to call it. We checked our privilege at the door whenever we walked out on the street. We always lived in fear. In fact, I only learned what it was like not to live in fear when I was 33 and moved to CT. I thought this place was fucking paradise. And I still do. I am forever traumatized by my youth. But even here now the kind of crime I moved here to get away from is encroaching on areas that never had that kind of crime. And so again I sometimes live in fear. I won't even go to the city of Hartford anymore unless it's the downtown area. I never had that fear up until a few years ago. I used to live in Hartford for a while and it never bothered me. Not anymore.

But yeah, I tell my husband that he doesn't realize how life's easier for him because he's of average male height and so many things are tailored for someone of his size. I even have trouble sitting in those supposedly "ergonomic" dental chairs because of that. They're like a torture device on me because they bend in the wrong areas for a person of only 5'1". I don't know if I consider those things "privileges", though. I consider some of those things to be "advantages". And the two are very different things.

[Yeah No]

5 hours ago, PRgal said:

People say they want diversity.  People say they want a variety of views from people of different ethnic groups.  But when I offer my experiences and those who I grew up with?  Well, those experiences don't matter because they're not "marginalized" enough.  Even when I offer what it's like to have a toxic immigrant grandmother.  They don't seem to care about linguistic challenges from immigrant communities, either.  I've talked about it here.  I'm not sure how people don't seem to understand this.  I've also talked about how boys/men in general aren't allowed to talk about their emotions and how they feel.  How every time THEY offer to say something and to contribute, they're ALSO dismissed, just like I am, and I'm female, non-White and as I like to say, first generation Anglophone.  When it doesn't fit the expected narrative of marginalization (you know, poor, non-English speaking, attending bad schools, etc...), then it DOESN'T MATTER.  It's "sit down and SHUT THE EFF UP!!!"  At least I can SORT of talk, being female and East Asian.....there's a reason why subreddits like /AsianParentStories exist.

Yeah, I think I get it. It's like my white WASP husband gets no sympathy despite all the disadvantages he had and still has just because people assume that a WASP has all this privilege. In my previous post I listed all the struggles he had and why I understand how he never felt privileged nor did he reap many of the benefits of his white privilege. But just because all those struggles weren't on account of race they are dismissed as if they can easily be overcome. When no, they can't and they weren't, and not for lack of effort on his part. 

I am going to admit something here that I only recently realized myself. My husband never made more money in one year than I did until 2021 when he got hired by a mega-rich client who pays him twice what he ever made in one year. So much for his MALE privilege giving him a better salary than me! It took being rescued by this wonderful client from the loss of his livelihood during the pandemic! And it wasn't his white male privilege that got him that job because his boss is a Korean American!

[peacheslatour]

3 hours ago, Affogato said:

Don’t buy Tesla for now

Or ever. They're garbage.

 

[Mollywolly555]

Privilege?

Check out "The Invisible Backpack" by Peggy McIntosh. 

We don't see all the perks of being white, nor the inherent racism of our society, but they're there. 

 

[Soapy Goddess]

7 hours ago, Dimity said:

If I could offer some advice, I would not choose to share information  that is (a) no one's business but yours and (b) information you feel will cause others to negatively judge you.   There are definitely some issues that I don't discuss here because I know I will be in a very decided minority!  I won't change anyone's mind, they won't change mine and that's fine.

I'm not speaking for PRGal, but as someone who has also been dismissed here, I understand where she's coming from. The topic is called "the feels", but if our feelings don't perfectly align with the majority, we are persona non grata. And in many instances made fun of. Only once did I ever receive an ounce of humanity and it was due to being a victim of mental, physical and verbal abuse. After that one moment one day, all bets were off.

7 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

Exactly. I try to keep it to the topics at hand and not bring in my personal life too much. Plus the internet is full of echo chambers and that ain't gonna change any time soon. Nine times out of ten, you're not going to change anyone's mind.

Agree. No one should be here to change anyone's mind. Least of all me. But that doesn't mean our feelings should be ridiculed and/or dismissed either. I never asked anyone to agree with me. All anyone could ask is to be treated like a human being with feelings...even if that's the ONLY common ground we have.

[Soapy Goddess]

10 hours ago, PRgal said:

Sometimes, I feel like I live in a very different world compared to the majority of you (including my fellow Canadians).  Just thought I wanted to say this (probably for the millionth time) and you guys don’t seem to understand, even though I’m trying hard to understand you. 

For what it's worth, I hear you.

[Soapy Goddess]

9 hours ago, PRgal said:

People say they want diversity.  People say they want a variety of views from people of different ethnic groups.  But when I offer my experiences and those who I grew up with?  Well, those experiences don't matter because they're not "marginalized" enough.

Agree. They say they want diversity and differing views because they feel it's PC, but they really don't mean it. It's kind of like what Barbara Walters really wanted on the View. Decades later, it's nothing even remotely close to what she had envisioned...and probably wouldn't want/approve. 

Edited May 5 by Soapy Goddess

[Anela]

@Dimity  @peacheslatour  I know you were just suggesting that PRGal protect her peace. I don't know if I got that across earlier. It's something I used to be good at (protecting my peace), but I haven't been good at that for a while now. 

@Soapy Goddess MAGA have made fun of us, too. And our politicians. 

20 minutes ago, Soapy Goddess said:

For what it's worth, I hear you.

So do I, but I feel that way in general. 

12 minutes ago, Soapy Goddess said:

Agree. They say they want diversity and differing views because they feel it's PC, but they really don't mean it. It's kind of like what Barbara Walters really wanted on the View. Decades later, it's nothing even remotely close to what she had envisioned...and probably wouldn't want/approve. 

But you voted for someone who doesn't want that. They are trying to erase any differences. 

[Soapy Goddess]

1 minute ago, Anela said:

@Dimity  @peacheslatour  I know you were just suggesting that PRGal protect her peace. I don't know if I got that across earlier. It's something I used to be good at (protecting my peace), but I haven't been good at that for a while now. 

@Soapy Goddess MAGA have made fun of us, too. And our politicians. 

But I don't recall making fun of you personally. I understand and fully respect that we might be on opposite ends of the political spectrum. I just don't believe that it does any of us any good to attack one another over our beliefs. We should try to understand one another instead. And even if we can't understand for one reason or another, it shouldn't negate our feelings.

[Quof]

6 hours ago, Dimity said:

Some places are actually designating the US as a 'hostile state'. 

Travel insurance policies will deny coverage for travel to a country which is the subject of a travel advisory from your federal government. Always check the level of "warning/advisory" before booking travel.  

[Affogato]

6 hours ago, Yeah No said:

Yeah, I think I get it. It's like my white WASP husband gets no sympathy despite all the disadvantages he had and still has just because people assume that a WASP has all this privilege. In my previous post I listed all the struggles he had and why I understand how he never felt privileged nor did he reap many of the benefits of his white privilege. But just because all those struggles weren't on account of race they are dismissed as if they can easily be overcome. When no, they can't and they weren't, and not for lack of effort on his part. 

I am going to admit something here that I only recently realized myself. My husband never made more money in one year than I did until 2021 when he got hired by a mega-rich client who pays him twice what he ever made in one year. So much for his MALE privilege giving him a better salary than me! It took being rescued by this wonderful client from the loss of his livelihood during the pandemic! And it wasn't his white male privilege that got him that job because his boss is a Korean American!

Yeah. Most of the privilege is statistical. Racism is not over in the US because we had a black president. A woman can go to church and dress modestly  and not be raped, it doesn’t mean those factors are directly related (i mean that doesn’t imply women who are raped are immodest and atheist).  Stephen Hawking was a famous white disabled person who made many discoveries and that doesn’t mean that being in a wheelchair …. The world is full of individual stories. 
 

Not to say that individual’s stories aren’t important. Not to say that we don’t change things one individual at a time.   Ut when you talk about a lot of orivilege you are talking about the experience of the group. 
 

 

Edited May 5 by Affogato

[Affogato]

5 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

Or ever. They're garbage.

 

We need electric cars. People have called for having musk removed from the company as a solution. 

[Yeah No]

29 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Not to say that individual’s stories aren’t important. Not to say that we don’t change things one individual at a time.   Ut when you talk about a lot of orivilege you are talking about the experience of the group. 

I hear what you're saying, but applying the experience of a group to every individual isn't fair either. I thought being fair to people meant taking them as individuals and not stereotyping them. We wouldn't want to paint all POC with the same brush so why is it fair to do it to white people?

[Affogato]

7 hours ago, Yeah No said:

As a New Yorker growing up and being a young adult in a dicey time and place, both my husband and I had to worry about riding the subways and getting mugged or shot. New York has always been a "great equalizer" as my parents used to call it. We checked our privilege at the door whenever we walked out on the street. We always lived in fear. In fact, I only learned what it was like not to live in fear when I was 33 and moved to CT. I thought this place was fucking paradise. And I still do. I am forever traumatized by my youth. But even here now the kind of crime I moved here to get away from is encroaching on areas that never had that kind of crime. And so again I sometimes live in fear. I won't even go to the city of Hartford anymore unless it's the downtown area. I never had that fear up until a few years ago. I used to live in Hartford for a while and it never bothered me. Not anymore.

But yeah, I tell my husband that he doesn't realize how life's easier for him because he's of average male height and so many things are tailored for someone of his size. I even have trouble sitting in those supposedly "ergonomic" dental chairs because of that. They're like a torture device on me because they bend in the wrong areas for a person of only 5'1". I don't know if I consider those things "privileges", though. I consider some of those things to be "advantages". And the two are very different things.

It is a privilege to live in a world where things are tailored to your size and shape. It is also an advantage, which is one of the reasons it is a privilege. 

[Affogato]

3 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

I hear what you're saying, but applying the experience of a group to every individual isn't fair either. I thought being fair to people meant taking them as individuals and not stereotyping them. We wouldn't want to paint all POC with the same brush so why is it fair to do it to white people?

Gathering statistical data to identify problems to fix, say the possible need for more primary care facilities in communities of color, is not painting individuals with the same brush. It is using sociology for what it was made for. Being fair to people is partially finding the disadvantages so you can correct them. Also, as you point out elsewhere, being a small woman of any color means that things don’t fit, which is an issue if you become  an astronaut. Women’s ski boots are different, running shoes are different. Is there one woman with (say) narrow hips who isn’t helped by an alteration? 
 

There is a difference between there being a general shortage of eggs and a shortage of eggs in your specific corner market  here is a difference between you having a good job and an unemployment crisis generally  

apples and oranges  nothing to do with fairness 

hence, intersectionality

 

[shapeshifter]

12 hours ago, Absolom said:

…A couple asked for my husband so they could talk "reasonably."  Good luck with that one.  He was gone, too.  

Thank you. I was feeling gaslit after a conversation about this yesterday.

[Yeah No]

28 minutes ago, Affogato said:

It is a privilege to live in a world where things are tailored to your size and shape. It is also an advantage, which is one of the reasons it is a privilege. 

I consider something a privilege that you are granted by someone else by virtue of some quality you have that makes them approve of you. Being short is not really like that. I don't think there's some big conspiracy of tall people that don't like short people and don't want them to have the advantage of having things fit. So to me, the two are not the same thing at all. Privilege is being allowed into the club. Being short is just kind of being left out, but not intentionally so. Companies create products to fit the majority, it's not because they don't like me because I'm short!

Oh, and even white people don't give each other the benefit of white privilege equally. Ask any Italian American about that, of which I am half myself. WASPS have been prejudiced and discriminatory towards us forever.

[tearknee]

Collectivism is dead to most, just as socialism is obsolete to most voters (as borne out by voting figures for overtly socialist parties and groups).

 

That partly explains the widespread collapse of the left-to-far-left in the west -- its incoherence in the face of a world that has changed and will not change back and desperate attempts to return to the old way of doing things. Their old way.

 

They are more like the reactionaries than they will ever admit.

 

One of the downsides of the whole Gaza mess is people ("Free Palestine"/"Friends of Palestine") on "off-topic" sub-sections of the web forums i belong to, trying to make the Reich seem not so bad compared to Israel.

 

The Nazis were remarkably racist, shockingly so, even against historical norms. They were also hypocrites of the first order, despising Slavs, unless they happened to be young children with "Aryan" features (i.e. Blonde and Blue). Then they would "adopt the "Aryan" and either liquidate or brutalize the rest of the family (something that Happened at LEAST 200,000 times, just in Poland).

 

Jews, Slavs, Roma were at the top of the list, they were not THE WHOLE LIST. Hitler didn't call America a nation of mongrels because there were Jews living here. Hatred of Blacks was a given across the Reich, other ethnic groups were also on the hate list, but Berlin was smart enough to know that they had to stay on-sides with the Asian races, especially the Japanese, until Europe was cleansed.

Edited May 5 by tearknee

[Affogato]

24 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

I consider something a privilege that you are granted by someone else by virtue of some quality you have that makes them approve of you. Being short is not really like that. I don't think there's some big conspiracy of tall people that don't like short people and don't want them to have the advantage of having things fit. So to me, the two are not the same thing at all. Privilege is being allowed into the club. Being short is just kind of being left out, but not intentionally so. Companies create products to fit the majority, it's not because they don't like me because I'm short!

Oh, and even white people don't give each other the benefit of white privilege equally. Ask any Italian American about that, of which I am half myself. WASPS have been prejudiced and discriminatory towards us forever.

Well, pay those words. They will serve you well. 

Again and for the last time, if men are on average taller and object design is geared to this average height, it is their privilege to fit most SUVs and walkers and wheelchairs and you are disadvantaged. Is it the same as someone saying ‘woman. Can’t be an engineer’? No. But it is part of life and ‘eliminating DEI’ has an effect in many of these areas. 
 

Meanwhile, it isn’t that clear cut. Because your husband was disadvantaged because of his disability does not mean he didn’t also benefit in some ways from white privilege.  As you point out with your ‘Italian American’ example, in a backhanded way. Because you choose to trivialize the minor inconveniences of a dental chair does not mean that you are immune from the health impacts of a medication that is only tested on men. Because there is prejudice towards one group does not negate prejudice to another. 
 

anyway, i am not saying you are wrong. I’m saying that isn’t the point.
 

 

[Yeah No]

19 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Again and for the last time, if men are on average taller and object design is geared to this average height, it is their privilege to fit most SUVs and walkers and wheelchairs and you are disadvantaged. Is it the same as someone saying ‘woman. Can’t be an engineer’? No. But it is part of life and ‘eliminating DEI’ has an effect in many of these areas. 

I say it's their advantage, not their privilege per this definition from this website:

https://brainly.in/question/15291692#:~:text=Answer%3A,opportunities and advantages of others.

Quote

 

Answer: As adjectives the difference between disadvantaged and underprivileged is that disadvantaged is lacking an advantage relative to another while underprivileged is being deprived of the opportunities and advantages of others.

Note the subtle difference. I don't deny that there is white privilege but I also recognize that not fitting into car seats is not privilege in the sense of being specifically denied access to something based on something about you that you can't change. It's being disadvantaged because of being significantly different from the average person. The two are not the same. Note that I don't even fit most women's clothing and it's not because taller women have privilege that my choices as a petite size are very limited. It's purely based on supply and demand, and that's very different from the concept of privilege. Companies can't cater to everyone so they default to the "average". Again, this is not about privilege at all. I don't take it personally and think that companies are snubbing me because I'm short. But if I were a black person and denied entrance to a club based on being black, THEN I would have reason to take it personally and feel snubbed and THAT is about privilege.

So anyway I doubt we're ever going to agree on this but that's my reasoning.

34 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Meanwhile, it isn’t that clear cut. Because your husband was disadvantaged because of his disability does not mean he didn’t also benefit in some ways from white privilege.  As you point out with your ‘Italian American’ example, in a backhanded way. Because you choose to trivialize the minor inconveniences of a dental chair does not mean that you are immune from the health impacts of a medication that is only tested on men. Because there is prejudice towards one group does not negate prejudice to another. 
 

anyway, i am not saying you are wrong. I’m saying that isn’t the point.

I never said he didn't have some white privilege. I just said it was lessened to a degree by all of his disadvantages, so it's unfair to act like white privilege is enjoyed to the same degree by all white men. It is not. And that's what white men, especially those that have experienced any kind of hardship in life are upset about. They are still being told that their white privilege trumps and negates every other disadvantage they might suffer from. And it doesn't work that way in the real world. Their disadvantages really hold them back. In my husband's case, quite a bit. And more of them are upset about this than will admit it - many of whom are educated and sophisticated, too. They keep their mouths shut because they want to be PC but in private they think differently. And that's why they are attracted to online mouthpieces that give them permission to air their true feelings about this.

I have even more personal experiences that fly in the face of the assumptions progressives make about white privilege. Being white and living in a neighborhood in the Bronx that was predominantly non-white over 40 years ago I was the victim of a lot of hate based on nothing but the color of my skin. There is only so much sympathy I can have for the people that did this to me. But I was never given permission to be upset about this. Supposedly I deserved being treated like that. I did not. I was an idealistic young woman that believed in racial equality. It's one of the big reasons I wanted to leave NYC. I got tired of being hated because presumptions were being made about me that weren't true or fair. So I bristle against presumptions no matter which direction they're coming from and who makes them.

Oh, and my husband and I were denied public assistance when we had very little income. He was working in a job selling pianos but not selling enough of them to make any money for quite a while. I had just graduated college and was working for minimum wage in a store until I could find something better, which turned out to be a clerical job at my old college, which didn't pay that well. But this was before that. Back then you had to go into the government office and meet with someone at a desk. Everyone in our local office was a POC. We stood out like sore thumbs. They treated us like SHIT, like how dare we even ask for public assistance! It didn't matter that we qualified in 20 different ways, our application was denied. We didn't even get food stamps. We had zero money in a bank account. We had no assets and we rented an apartment. In fact I was in the hole for several thousand dollars in a student loan! And we know full well why we were turned down - because we were white and it was assumed that our privilege should be enough and maybe we should go get great jobs from all our supposed "white connections" and ask our "rich" parents for money. Meanwhile neither of our parents had any money and we had no connections. I am crying as I remember this. But oh, we are told to STFU because supposedly we still had white privilege!!!!! If you don't see what's wrong with that, I don't know what else to say.

[bluegirl147]

There are different types of privilege.  White people have privilege when being pulled over by the police. Men have privilege when walking alone at night.  Rich people have privilege pretty much in any situation.  President Obama had privilege being POTUS but he was hated by a lot of people in this country because of the color of his skin.   Also there is a difference between being aware of your privilege and using your privilege. The people that annoy me the most are those who clearly have privilege and deny it.  Acting like they are the victim. 

[Kemper]

So. Trump wants to tax movies that come into the United States from other countries? Have I gotten that right? We are winning! 🥶 Every single minute of every single day. 

[EtheltoTillie]

Here is the 60 Minutes segment from last night on lawyers being targeted by Trump.

Edited May 5 by EtheltoTillie

[bluegirl147]

8 minutes ago, Kemper said:

So. Trump wants to tax movies that come into the United States from other countries? Have I gotten that right? We are winning! 🥶 Every single minute of every single day. 

So what happens when other countries return the favor?  A lot of money is made from foreign distribution.

Because it cannot be said enough.  Trump is dumb as a stump.

[fastiller]

@EtheltoTillie - thanks for the link. Marc Elias has been doing this a very, very long time.  And he has racked up so many wins.  I fear for his safety.

[shapeshifter]

30 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

So what happens when other countries return the favor?  A lot of money is made from foreign distribution.

Because it cannot be said enough.  Trump is dumb as a stump.

On some existential level as a living creature he must realize his life force is waning, so his primary goal is now just to take down as many perceived enemies as possible on his last revenge tour. This makes him something of a puppet for random power mongers to pull his strings, all of whom will eventually move on; then the marionette will be a lifeless pile of wood, perhaps with a battery still running random, pre-programmed invectives that grow slower, harder to hear, and more irrelevant.

[Bookish Jen]

On 5/3/2025 at 6:54 PM, ChiCricket said:

Yes, this is a real tweet. I wonder how my very Catholic son-in-law who voted for *rump all 3 times will like this. 🙄 

Pope Felonus Convictus the First.

I may be a very lapsed Catholic who hasn't been to Mass in ages, but I can't even begin to tell you how offended I am by this, especially considering we're still mourning the death of Pope Francis.

[Dimity]

54 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

So what happens when other countries return the favor?  A lot of money is made from foreign distribution.

Because it cannot be said enough.  Trump is dumb as a stump.

As are his enablers.  Whether they're actually dumb or playing a long game called crashing the US economy deliberately remains to be seen,

In any event this is such a typical Trump move.  Instead of doing what others countries are doing and offering tax breaks and other incentives to keep filming  in the US he hits a mosquito with a sledge hammer - but the mosquito was on a glass table.

Idiot.

[EtheltoTillie]

Mel Gibson has a particularly close relationship with Hollywood folks, yeah, that's the ticket.