Chit-Chat: The Feels

[Palimelon]

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I do not understand why the left in the west wants to see a Palestinian state that would not be easy or comfortable for the groups they claim to care about the most.

Because every people deserve a country of their own. By your logic in project 2025 happens and the US becomes an authoritarian Christian theocracy, Canada and Mexico would be ok with invading it.

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The Gaza territory is physically devastated and has no functioning economy.

So?

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How will it support 2.2 million people? Is the "international community," which has done so much to encourage the Palestinians in their self-defeating campaign of "resistance" for the past 50 years, willing to accept responsibility for permanently supporting this population?

If actual action had been taken to support a viable Palestinian state, then your question would be irrelevant.

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In fact, it's no secret that most of the population of Gaza would be very happy to emigrate, provided it was to North America or western Europe. Over the past decade Israel has quietly facilitated the emigration of about 200,000 Gazans, mostly young men.

It's no secret that the majority of Gazans and other Palestinians would rather still live in their homeland and not have to emigrate.

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The problem now is where much larger numbers can emigrate to. It's very unlikely that the Trump regime will welcome large numbers of Muslim immigrants to the US. European governments will not have been encouraged to take more Muslims after witnessing the pogrom in Amsterdam.

The problem is people shouldn't have to emigrate.

As for what happened in Amsterdam, well that was started by Maccabi fans to begin with.

If you want to see a real pogram taking place, maybe a visit to the West Bank is in order European government officials.

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And where are the voices in Gaza, even now, demanding that Hamas release the hostages and get out of Gaza? I have seen one or two, but not many. As with so much that has befallen the Palestinians over the past century, they have their own leaders to blame for their present plight and future prospects.

Actually, most Palestinians in Gaza, even the ones who aren't crazy about Hamas, would say the present plight that has befallen them is due to the occupation more than anything else, and that even if Hamas disappeared tomorrow, the occupation would still continue.

They would also ask about the 8,000+ Palestinian hostages being held in Israeli detention centers, most who haven't been charged with anything yet...

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They doubt that the IDF will stay in Gaza permanently

Given that settler movement (AKA Israeli MAGA) and it's leaders have a huge influence on the current Israeli government, I'd say Israel's re-annexation of the Gaza strip (as well as the West Bank) is a full possibility.

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"what the ever loving hell did these people think was going to happen if Trump got in?????

The same thing that is happening now. AIPAC pretty much runs the US's Middle East policy these days regardless of who sits in the Oval Office.

[Dimity]

1 minute ago, Palimelon said:

They would also ask about the 8,000+ Palestinian hostages being held in Israeli detention centers, most who haven't been charged with anything yet...

Please don't do this.  What happened in October of last year was horrible and whataboutism doesn't change that.

[peacheslatour]

4 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

I am one of these people who voted for Harris because I knew Trump would be worse for Palestinians and everybody else. Not all of us sat out the election. 

The Republican president-elect has accused Biden of restraining Israel in Gaza and made a vague promise to help Israel to “finish the job” if re-elected.

[Palimelon]

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What happened in October of last year was horrible and whataboutism doesn't change that.

Yes, a convenient way to ignore the pain and suffering of one side. Even for stuff that had happened before October 7th.

Edited November 12 by Palimelon

[Ohiopirate02]

12 minutes ago, Dimity said:

Dumb question - as Ambassador does that mean he is going to be living in Israel?

For a significant part of the year, yes he and his wife will be living in Israel.

[Avaleigh]

1 hour ago, Bastet said:

Well, you did just say:

Her own child is speaking logic and reason to her, and pointing out the personal (your daughter's special needs programs), but she's "consuming lies and right wing propaganda on a daily basis" and that, not you, is what she's choosing to believe as fact. 

A lot of us have family members who have marinated in "alternative facts" for so long they'll go to their damn graves - or send us to ours - declaring the lies to be gospel truth, and the truth to be fake news.  Declaring them a lost cause is not exactly a stretch.  Sincere wishes of good luck to anyone who keeps trying, but I certainly understand deciding one's energy is best used elsewhere.

You're 100% right that I'm not going to be able to change her mind. I've tried, and I don't bother anymore for the most part. I focus on the areas where we do have common ground and just listen when she starts spouting stuff that she hasn't fact checked or that I just flat out know isn't true.

Although I have to admit it will be hard for me to refrain from pointing out the fact that Trump picked a dog killer to be his secretary of Homeland Security. Gah, WITAF?!

That being said, I don't think everyone is a lost cause. My mom is stubborn, so I'm not expecting anything to change with her any time soon, but I don't like the idea of giving up on her or giving up hope in general that things will get better.

Ideally, people will see that Trump's policies aren't working or are damaging and they will vote accordingly next time around. In the meantime the Democratic party needs to work on a message that both feels inclusive, but doesn't alienate potential voters. I also hope that we'll be able to find a fresh personality to lead the party. 

[peacheslatour]

Although I have to admit it will be hard for me to refrain from pointing out the fact that Trump picked a dog killer to be his secretary of Homeland Security. Gah, WITAF?!

She'll also be the first head of HS to have been barred from every reservation in her home state.

[Dimity]

1 hour ago, Avaleigh said:

I also hope that we'll be able to find a fresh personality to lead the party. 

What I am interested in is who will succeed Trump.  Vance is stunningly unpopular even within the MAGA crowd.   Will the party try to move past the Trump years or will they pick one of his loyal bootlickers.  

[FilmTVGeek80]

1 hour ago, Palimelon said:

The same thing that is happening now. AIPAC pretty much runs the US's Middle East policy these days regardless of who sits in the Oval Office.

I’m pretty sure the racist elect is not going to be working towards a ceasefire or trying to stop the carnage. Biden/Harris have been trying to work on a permanent ceasefire and would have had one negotiated if 45 hadn’t meddled and gotten his dumbass buddy Netanyahu to go along with waiting until after the election. But, I guess that worked out well for the two of them. Great job voters wanting to stick it to Biden/Harris. <sarcasm>Because they’re the ones who will be hurt the most by what happened. </sarcasm>
 

4 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

There are of course people who are racists or misogynists or homophobic or some combination of these things who voted for Trump. I personally know people who don't fall into these categories including my mother, a Black woman. She belonged to the Democratic party for decades. This was a relatively recent shift for her and other people like her.

We live in California and from her perspective, she thinks it's a mistake to leave the same people in charge year after year and think that the result will be any different. She brings up the homeless situation and crime that has personally affected them and people they know. She no longer associates the Democratic party with the group she thinks will keep her safe. I personally think she's misguided and wrong if she thinks that Trump will be able to wave a magic wand and solve things like crime and homelessness, but there's no amount of convincing I can do to get her to see things my way.

The reason I bring all of this up, is because I think it's inaccurate to make it seem like all Trump supporters are racist assholes. Some of them have legitimate concerns and have lost faith in the Democratic party for whatever reason. Trump made gains with women and certain minorities, so I think it's important to examine the reasons why. I also firmly believe it's still possible to get some of these people back on the side of the Democrats if we improve the overall message next time around.

I don't think it helps to demonize everyone who voted for Trump because not everyone voted for him because they see themselves as happily supporting racism and misogyny. (Even if that's what they are in fact doing.) There are people who are struggling to feed their families. There are people who have been hurt by crime. Their concerns are genuine and they shouldn't be blown off and harshly labeled if these issues are happen to be their top priority. 

How are we supposed to win people back if we keep demonizing them and telling them how horrible they are because they voted for a cartoon villain they misguidedly think will make their lives better? Won't that just continue to alienate people who could potentially be won over?

Or is the idea that everyone who voted for him is a lost cause? If the Democrats only focus on getting new voters, people voting for the first time, I don't think that will be enough to bridge the gap that widened more than we expected it to this year. 

I know I for one have never said ALL 45 supporters are racist. But, I think a good chunk of them are or they don’t care that he is. I’ve mentioned before that I know some 45 supporters. I’m Black and my MIL is white. I’m sure she’d tell you she loves me and can’t possibly be racist. I don’t think she is, but her willful ignorance or indifference doesn’t get her off the hook. She may not want to acknowledge he’s racist, but even setting that aside, he’s done enough non-racist hateful things that should have been a dealbreaker. 
 

Like you said about your mom, many of these people aren’t swayed by facts or reality but basically by vibes and going by what they see and feel. I’m not sure how to reach people who only care about reality as they see it. I do think some of the voters who voted for him this time can be swayed, but if it’s not too late by then, I think the only thing that will sway them is seeing the damage that he’s going to inflict and experiencing it themselves.

[peacheslatour]

New topic please!

 

WASHINGTON, Nov 10 (Reuters) - During his campaign for re-election, Donald Trump vowed to purge the military of so-called "woke" generals. Now that he is president-elect, the question in the halls of the Pentagon is whether he would go much further.
Trump is expected to have a far darker view of his military leaders in his second term, after facing Pentagon resistance over everything from his skepticism toward NATO to his readiness to deploy troops to quell protests on U.S. streets.
Trump's former U.S. generals and defense secretaries are among his fiercest critics, some branding him a fascist and declaring him unfit for office. Angered, Trump has suggested that his former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Mark Milley, could be executed for treason.
Current and former U.S. officials say Trump will prioritize loyalty in his second term and root out military officers and career civil servants he perceives to be disloyal.

[CM-BlueButterfly]

Hi everyone, 

a few posts have been removed as they had drifted too far away from the US election and were getting personal. If you would like to discuss the generalities of the Gaza-Israel conflict, kindly move the conversation to PM. 

Otherwise, thank you for continuing to keep it respectful. 

[fairffaxx]

4 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

Lol, Trump just made Mike Huckabee ambassador to Israel.

Remember when Huckabee burst upon the scene by appearing on Colbert's old Comedy Central show?  He was hilarious & more than held his own with Colbert, who was clearly in awe.  So was I -- not only was he funny, he's devoted to Keith Richards!  What happened? 

[EtheltoTillie]

21 minutes ago, fairffaxx said:

Remember when Huckabee burst upon the scene by appearing on Colbert's old Comedy Central show?  He was hilarious & more than held his own with Colbert, who was clearly in awe.  So was I -- not only was he funny, he's devoted to Keith Richards!  What happened? 

Yeah he used to play guitar, right?  Still he’s always been very right wing. 

[fairffaxx]

A right wing fundie rock & roller with a righteous sense of humor!  Just what the poor Middle East needs....

[Anela]

re: the posts about pronouns, and "woke".

I saw a post going around, from someone who had overheard kids talking about their friend who had decided they were non-binary, or trans. These children got together to practice referring to them by their preferred pronouns, so that they wouldn't mess up, the next time they were around their friend.

If children can do that, I don't see why adults can't. 

[peacheslatour]

2 minutes ago, Anela said:

re: the posts about pronouns, and "woke".

I saw a post going around, from someone who had overheard kids talking about their friend who had decided they were non-binary, or trans. These children got together to practice referring to them by their preferred pronouns, so that they wouldn't mess up, the next time they were around their friend.

If children can do that, I don't see why adults can't. 

I'm glad you put woke in quotes. I can't take anybody seriously who uses woke with a straight face.

[Bastet]

14 minutes ago, Anela said:

I saw a post going around, from someone who had overheard kids talking about their friend who had decided they were non-binary, or trans. These children got together to practice referring to them by their preferred pronouns, so that they wouldn't mess up, the next time they were around their friend.

If children can do that, I don't see why adults can't. 

Wanda Sykes has a great thing about that in her "I'm an Entertainer" comedy special.  She overheard her twins, who were probably 12-ish at the time, talking about a classmate, Alexis; her son was telling her daughter a story and said "She", the daughter cut him off and said, "Alexis is non-binary, so it's they," and he said, "Oh, okay.  They ..." and continued the story.  Wanda said that if understanding something this basic blows your mind, you just sound old and outdated -- "These kids are on 5G and you're on AOL dial-up".

[Dimity]

19 minutes ago, Anela said:

I saw a post going around, from someone who had overheard kids talking about their friend who had decided they were non-binary, or trans. These children got together to practice referring to them by their preferred pronouns, so that they wouldn't mess up, the next time they were around their friend.

My 12 yr old grandson has a friend who decided he was a she when she was about, hmm 7?  Anyway pre-Covid (which is how I now date almost everything!)  Anyway her friends stayed her friends and took it totally in stride.  I don't even want to think about what would have happened to a little boy who started dressing like a little girl back when I was that age.  Today's kids could teach us all something.

Edited November 13 by Dimity

[ChiCricket]

On 11/8/2024 at 12:26 PM, kittykat said:

Pretty much had to nope out of reddit since a lot of subs I follow are being bombarded by white male Gen Z voters who just HAD TO vote for Trump because they're tired of being demonized by the left

Maybe try this on Reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/LeopardsAteMyFace/s/8T5mCWr9dK

[Dimity]

This seems to be something  most of us posting here can identify with right now:

 

[peacheslatour]

32 minutes ago, ChiCricket said:

Maybe try this on Reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/LeopardsAteMyFace/s/8T5mCWr9dK

Thanks. Joined.

[ChiCricket]

On 11/9/2024 at 12:54 PM, bluegirl147 said:

Undermining our education system has been a goal of the right for decades.  An uneducated populace is easier to control and deceive.  Hence Trump saying he loves the uneducated.

Reminds me of this. 

[ChiCricket]

On 11/9/2024 at 5:41 PM, Annber03 said:

We know what to expect with him by now, and it's nothing good.

 

[Annber03]

3 hours ago, Anela said:

re: the posts about pronouns, and "woke".

I saw a post going around, from someone who had overheard kids talking about their friend who had decided they were non-binary, or trans. These children got together to practice referring to them by their preferred pronouns, so that they wouldn't mess up, the next time they were around their friend.

If children can do that, I don't see why adults can't. 

Seriously, not to turn this into an "OK Boomer" rant, because you can find anti-"woke"/pronoun backlash nonsense and so forth from people in any generation.

But for people who are in my mom's generation, it really does boggle my mind how the same generation that fought to let men be able to wear their hair long and let women wear pants now have some people in that generation having complete meltdowns over the mere concept of pronouns. Oh, my god, you (general "you") might actually have to refer to someone as "them/they" if they request it? What a struggle that clearly will be for you! Good lord, grow up and get over it. 

It's especially hilarious because, outside of maybe the occasional person online going on about wanting various pronouns and whatnot, I literally never run into this issue in my everyday life. And I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of people who get so bent out of shape abotu this have never had to encounter it, either, and likely never will, or at most, they might only ever have to deal with this scenario, like, once or twice, or something. But because Fox News or Newsmax or whomever ranted about it one day, suddenly now it's a "problem" and an example of "wokeness gone amuck" or whatever. 

It's also frustrating to me because it is amazing how the "do my own research" crowd never, ever seems to let that abiltiy textend to understanding stuff like people wanting to go by specific pronouns or things of that sort. They have all the time in the world to look up whatever batshit nonsesne is out there that will back up some stupdi conspiracy theory they buy into, but somehow they just can't seem to put that same amount of effort into looking up , say, Harris' policy proposals, or the specifics around the topic of pronouns and why some prefer certain ones, or things relating to transgender issues, or whatever. Nope. That's just too hard for them, apparently. 

And that's what I was getting at with my last post, about how people seem to think it's impossible to still try and understand things like people wanting to go by specific pronouns while also worrying about their economic situation. It's really not, and simply caring about those kinds of issues is not a bad thing and not a sign of "wokeness gone too far" or whatever. 

As for the whole topic about men, I have to echo those who say that a lot of men aren't exactly making themselves all that desirable to women nowadays. A lot of men still seem to expect the women in their lives to cater to them and be more like a mom who coddles them rather than an equal partner. And the general commentary about incels is spot on, too. 

So yeah, it's not really all that shocking that a lot of us are preferring to stay single rather than wade into that dating minefield. I do agree we desperately need to get men away from the Andrew Tates and Jordan Petersons of the world, but I don't know how to go about doing that on a general level. I would love to find a way to try and break through the conspiracy theory BS and whatnot that people are being innudated with nowadays, but I also very much sympathize with being tired of trying to "understand" Trump supporters. We've had nine years to do that, we've had nine years of "interivewing Trump supporters in a diner" type articles (when is there ever going to be an article like that about what the left wants, their fears and concers?), and I still don't feel I know them any better now than I did then. They're scared and feel left behind and they're either racist/sexist/xenophobic/homophobic/transphobic or don't seem to consider it a dealbreaker that Trump is.

And now they also don't consider his attempts to overthrow a democratic election a dealbreaker, either, and in many cases, actively supported and/or participated in those efforts. They want to blame every other group on the planet for why they aren't farther ahead in life or why they can't afford things or whatever and refuse to take any responsibility for their role in their own struggles, or refuse to see that the GOP's efforts to blame women and minority groups for all of society's ills are nothing more than a distration to keep them from realizing it's the rich, corporate people taking advantage of them and keeping them down. They continue to vote for a party that screws others over and then act shocked when they also get screwed over. 

So yeah. I'm really just not up for trying to find out what makes them tick anymore. We've seen it. Many times. It's the same old story. I just want to know how we combat and overcome it at this point. 

Also, @Yeah No, I apprecaite the virtual hug as well in regards to my earlier post :) <3. It's been some real ups and downs for my family over the years, for sure, but I hope to take all the lessons I have learned from all we've gone through and try and apply them to how I interact with people in general, and how I want to live my own life in turn. 

[Yeah No]

15 hours ago, Palimelon said:

One could say it's the fault of the Democratic party for allowing the Republicans and the right to dominate the conversation and control the narrative.

Agreed 100%

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I'm sorry but what determines what is an excess of woke culture? Why do pronouns seem to trigger certain people on the left as much as it does on the right? Pronouns are no different than someone getting an abortion or a marriage between queer people; nobody is forcing them on you or expecting you to use them, but just asking for people to respect their choice if they do use them. I myself use traditional pronouns and I don't announce them to anyone, but if someone else uses ones that are different, I just shrug my shoulders and accommodate them. And it doesn't cost me a thing.

I actually don't think the pronouns themselves are what bothers most of these people. It's being made to feel stupid and wrong for not knowing the currently accepted pronoun for everyone, especially when it seems like they change so often. Of course there are people that are bothered by them altogether but those are not the people the Democratic party has a chance of keeping anyway.

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Ok, but what exactly does that mean? Should people ignore issues that are important to them? Should we be like the less fascist Republicans and compromise on issues that might offend people?

Back in the day, the idea of women voting offended a majority of the population and people who supported it were probably derided as the "woke" of their day.

Back in the day, the idea of women working outside of the home or even getting an education offended a majority of the population and people who supported it were probably derided as the "woke" of their day.

Back in the day, the idea of women getting abortions offended a majority of the population and people who supported it were probably derided as the "woke" of their day.

Back in the day, the idea of freeing slaves offended a majority of the population and people who supported it were probably derided as the "woke" of their day.

Back in the day, the idea of black and other non-white people earning the same salary or attending the same educational institutions offended a majority of the population and people who supported it were probably derided as the "woke" of their day.

Back in the day, the idea of letting queer people get married offended a majority of the population and people who supported it were probably derided as the "woke" of their day.

Back in the day, the idea of letting queer people adopt children offended a majority of the population and people who supported it were probably derided as the "woke" of their day.

It was the "woke" of their day that kept shouting louder and louder that kept pushing for these changes and kept pushing for these ideas to become mainstream which is what led to the changes we have seen on many of these issues. A "woke" issue - whether it's gay marriage or women getting an abortion of equal rights for all citizens - only stops being a "woke" issue once more and more people start accepting it.

No, the Democratic party shouldn't abandon its basic message. I'm not talking about any of the positive messages that the Democratic party stands for because Democrats and even many independents and Republicans agree on those things without question - equals right for everyone regardless of race, chosen gender, sexual orientation among many other things we hold as human rights. I'm talking about what is being taken as an insult by some people. If you make some people feel wrong and bad about themselves just based on their race, gender and sexual orientation you can't wonder why they will backlash and leave you, especially when you're preaching acceptance of all those things, seemingly for everyone else except them. It's as simple as that. If the party is really about DEI it can't be coming down so hard on straight white men just because they're straight white men. It's going to make them feel like they're not welcome, alienate them and actually contribute to making them toxic, not get them to see the light. If we concentrate on the general human rights issues like Democrats did years ago without making people feel bad about themselves I think that will be a more attractive, inclusive message. And it would give the right a lot less ammunition for calling us hypocrites.

[Yeah No]

15 hours ago, FilmTVGeek80 said:

I see your point on some of these, but I don’t get the issue with pronouns. It’s not that many and no one is forcing anyone to identify with those different pronouns. The reparations talk is just that - talk. It’s not that widespread and not anywhere close to being implemented. Who on the left - especially elected officials - is asking for unchecked immigration? Some - including myself - might want the process to be easier, but that’s not the same as the Right’s lies about open borders. I will never understand why so many have such an issue with tuition forgiveness. I don’t believe the issue is any effect it would have on the economy. Most of what I’ve seen online is just sour grapes from others who are pissed their student loans weren’t forgiven (not saying that’s your position). I managed to pay off my loans not long before Biden took office. I would have loved to benefit from that, but just because I didn’t doesn’t make me begrudge anyone getting the opportunity I didn’t. I’m jealous, sure, but that’s it.

I don't have a problem with pronouns and I can't speak about those who do, but I'm talking about the perception that a lot of Americans have of what the Democratic party stands for. I know better than to think it stands for unchecked immigration, open borders or that they're anywhere near pushing reparations as a part of their platform. Somehow the right has convinced many people of these things and I don't think the Democratic candidates have pushed back enough on that perception. I was honestly yelling at my TV a few times when Kamala was talking during her campaign because I think there were times she could have pushed back harder on that perception.

Tuition forgiveness is a sore subject with me because I came of age at a time of double digit inflation, interest rates and unemployment in NYC where the cost of living has always been sky-high compared to the rest of the country, and I suffered great hardship as a young person just graduating college with the equivalent in today's money of about $45,000 in student loan debt. I did not come from money nor did I make a lot of money. I worked in higher ed. making bupkis. The perception that all Boomers (especially late Boomers like me) had it so easy back in the day is in my opinion misguided based on facts. I could have benefitted from tuition forgiveness but I had to struggle through a couple of hardship interest-only deferrals before I eventually paid it off almost 15 years after I graduated.

Granted, young people today, especially after the recent inflation, have it almost or just as hard but who is going to forgive me my student loans after all they did to set me back in life? And where is the money going to come from to forgive them? Is Social Security going to go bust while we forgive student loan money? I'm a senior now and I STILL have to worry about my survival.

So anyway, that's my opinion.

[Palimelon]

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Biden/Harris have been trying to work on a permanent ceasefire and would have had one negotiated if 45 hadn’t meddled and gotten his dumbass buddy Netanyahu to go along with waiting until after the election.

By permanent ceasefire, I guess that means issuing stern warnings, redlines that were constantly crossed, and vetoing UN resolutions.

We're still waiting for Biden to honor his pledge that he would begin limiting arms to Israel after the US election if the situation in Gaza didn't improve. I have a feeling we will keep waiting.

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It's being made to feel stupid and wrong for not knowing the currently accepted pronoun for everyone, especially when it seems like they change so often. Of course there are people that are bothered by them altogether but those are not the people the Democratic party has a chance of keeping anyway

Nobody is made to feel stupid for that. People are called out for ignoring people's pronounce choice though. Again, I'm not really where and how people are made to feel stupid about something that is also an individual choice. Different people have different pronouns.

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If the party is really about DEI it can't be coming down so hard on straight white men just because they're straight white men.

But it isn't coming down so hard on straight white men. Its coming down on certain straight white men.

 

[Soapy Goddess]

14 hours ago, partofme said:

 My loans are 26 years old, in good standing and eligible for forgiveness, I currently owe more than I borrowed, and the damn injunction is keeping them from being forgiven.

But what about all the borrowers who managed to pay off their loans? Do you think it's fair to them to have struggled while others are forgiven??

[Soapy Goddess]

5 hours ago, Dimity said:

I don't even want to think about what would have happened to a little boy who started dressing like a little girl back when I was that age. 

Back in the day "they" were "shim"

[Palimelon]

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But what about all the borrowers who managed to pay off their loans? Do you think it's fair to them to have struggled while others are forgiven??

If the ones who were forgiven have been trying their best and working as much they can to pay off their debt, then sure.

[Yeah No]

13 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

How are we supposed to win people back if we keep demonizing them and telling them how horrible they are because they voted for a cartoon villain they misguidedly think will make their lives better? Won't that just continue to alienate people who could potentially be won over?

Thank you, this is my own message and not just about the people that voted for Trump, but any people period. I think a lot of voters have been alienated by what they perceive as non-acceptance of them by Democrats. Even if we think they don't have a real reason to feel that way they should not be demonized or that will only further lose them to the Republican candidates and party.

2 hours ago, Annber03 said:

Seriously, not to turn this into an "OK Boomer" rant, because you can find anti-"woke"/pronoun backlash nonsense and so forth from people in any generation.

But for people who are in my mom's generation, it really does boggle my mind how the same generation that fought to let men be able to wear their hair long and let women wear pants now have some people in that generation having complete meltdowns over the mere concept of pronouns. Oh, my god, you (general "you") might actually have to refer to someone as "them/they" if they request it? What a struggle that clearly will be for you! Good lord, grow up and get over it. 

It's especially hilarious because, outside of maybe the occasional person online going on about wanting various pronouns and whatnot, I literally never run into this issue in my everyday life. And I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of people who get so bent out of shape abotu this have never had to encounter it, either, and likely never will, or at most, they might only ever have to deal with this scenario, like, once or twice, or something. But because Fox News or Newsmax or whomever ranted about it one day, suddenly now it's a "problem" and an example of "wokeness gone amuck" or whatever. 

I think for most Democrats from my generation the idea of pronouns is not the problem. It's feeling like there are 5,000 of them that change every week or month and if you don't get them right you can be made to feel stupid, canceled and reprimanded for it. That is where a lot of people disconnect and feel like it's wokeness run amuck. And if you think this is something only socially conservative or "old fashioned" people feel you might be surprised to know that Van Jones, the CNN commentator and one time advisor to President Obama feels the same way!

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As for the whole topic about men, I have to echo those who say that a lot of men aren't exactly making themselves all that desirable to women nowadays. A lot of men still seem to expect the women in their lives to cater to them and be more like a mom who coddles them rather than an equal partner. And the general commentary about incels is spot on, too. 

I agree but I've been saying we have a problem with men in our society for a very long time. And I hate to say I blame some of that on bad parenting. I don't want to blame this all on them or on mothers in particular, but men who grow up wanting a mom who coddles them rather than an equal partner learned that behavior at home from their parents. How do we stop that from happening? I wish I knew. 

I remember back in the '80s I started to notice the trend of co-dependent parenting. I think parents became over-protective of their kids following an increase in reporting of missing children, specifically one case in NYC of Etan Patz who became one of the first "milk carton children". So a lot of that coddling came as a result of fear and unfortunately taken to an extreme brought up boys in particular to be overdependent on their parents even into adulthood.

There are many theories about why this did not happen for the most part with female children, but it is true that the effects of this kind of parenting disproportionately hurt boys. Women seem to have been able to grow up unscathed by it for the most part.

Quote

Also, @Yeah No, I apprecaite the virtual hug as well in regards to my earlier post :) <3. It's been some real ups and downs for my family over the years, for sure, but I hope to take all the lessons I have learned from all we've gone through and try and apply them to how I interact with people in general, and how I want to live my own life in turn. 

Amen to that, and as someone who has had similar ups and downs I get it!

[CheshireCat]

30 minutes ago, Soapy Goddess said:

But what about all the borrowers who managed to pay off their loans? Do you think it's fair to them to have struggled while others are forgiven??

It's not fair. 

However, humans are inventors by nature. They also strive to move society forward and improve lives. If we look back, that's what we've done for centuries, even millennia. As we always have to start somewhere, it meant there always was a generation that didn't have what the next generation had, just like there was always a generation where only a select few had something. But we did it anyway because we knew it would improve lives and once we had introduced whatever it was into the lives of people, society worked or fought towards making whatever it was accessible or affordable for as many people as possible.  

Additionally, I think borrowers who managed to pay off their loans still benefit from student loan forgiveness. Student loan forgiveness means these young people have more money to buy things with. That generates revenue, generated revenue is good for the economy. They also may be more likely to have children which benefits society and the economy as well as social welfare. 

On the surface, and in the short-term, I think it looks and is unfair. In the medium- and long-term, though, it benefits the country as a whole since a strong middle class is the source of economic growth. 

 

[Yeah No]

40 minutes ago, Palimelon said:

Nobody is made to feel stupid for that. People are called out for ignoring people's pronounce choice though. Again, I'm not really where and how people are made to feel stupid about something that is also an individual choice. Different people have different pronouns.

But it isn't coming down so hard on straight white men. Its coming down on certain straight white men.

I don't profess to know what the intention is here, I just know how a lot of people are feeling about these things. Many people don't want to have to be so PC and ultra-careful that they're afraid that they're going to trip up and be called wrong for it. And dismissing their feelings and telling them they're wrong for feeling them is not going to make them feel included either so I think there is some justification for them reacting negatively to it.

I have actually been on the receiving end of that kind of thing and yes, I felt like it was unnecessarily unkind, judgmental and intolerantly motivated toward me. I'm one of the "good guys" and yet I came away feeling stupid, outdated and prejudiced. And I think it's understandable why I would have felt that way given the circumstances.

And regarding straight white men, I don't think it's hard to understand why even coming down on certain straight white men will be taken personally by those that feel that they're being lumped in with them unfairly and being judged by surface things they can't change (not their behavior). If you're not very specific many straight white men will feel that they are the target of that. I can totally understand why they would feel that way. It feels way too much like prejudice, and if you're trying to eliminate one kind of prejudice against one group and in the process another group feels like you're instead prejudiced against them, maybe a different approach might be a good idea.

[Palimelon]

Quote

I don't think it's hard to understand why even coming down on certain straight white men will be taken personally by those that feel that they're being lumped in with them unfairly and being judged by surface things they can't change (not their behavior)

Well, hopefully then people will understand why disenfranchised groups feel that way when it happens to them as well.

[Yeah No]

23 minutes ago, CheshireCat said:

It's not fair. 

However, humans are inventors by nature. They also strive to move society forward and improve lives. If we look back, that's what we've done for centuries, even millennia. As we always have to start somewhere, it meant there always was a generation that didn't have what the next generation had, just like there was always a generation where only a select few had something. But we did it anyway because we knew it would improve lives and once we had introduced whatever it was into the lives of people, society worked or fought towards making whatever it was accessible or affordable for as many people as possible.  

Additionally, I think borrowers who managed to pay off their loans still benefit from student loan forgiveness. Student loan forgiveness means these young people have more money to buy things with. That generates revenue, generated revenue is good for the economy. They also may be more likely to have children which benefits society and the economy as well as social welfare. 

On the surface, and in the short-term, I think it looks and is unfair. In the medium- and long-term, though, it benefits the country as a whole since a strong middle class is the source of economic growth. 

 

I hate to make this about generation but what about the value of spending that older people can contribute to the economy? I get what you're saying but that rationale can be true for older people (not having kids, obviously) but the other stuff about spending and stimulating the economy. I may be 66 but I still shop and spend money same as ever. I hate the way society presumes that all of us older people are at home knitting or something and not contributing members of society. Like giving us a break on something wouldn't help stimulate the economy. We are facing great hardships financially too. A lot of people my age don't even have IRA or 401K money to live on. It's increasingly a problem. And then we hear that Social Security is going to go bust, and even faster if Donnie cancels the tax on it, so where's our "forgiveness"?

And many of us older people have spent decades busting our asses and paying taxes - don't we get some kind of credit for that?

3 minutes ago, Palimelon said:

Well, hopefully then people will understand why disenfranchised groups feel that way when it happens to them as well.

OK but isn't that a little too "eye of an eye"? And it's not really a justification for it. I'm not for righting a wrong by creating another one. Just my opnion.

Edited November 13 by Yeah No

[Palimelon]

Quote

OK but isn't that a little too "eye of an eye"? And it's not really a justification for it. I'm not for righting a wrong by creating another one.

No but it does speak of an unequal power structure between different groups.

[CheshireCat]

3 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I hate to make this about generation but what about the value of spending that older people can contribute to the economy? I get what you're saying but that rationale can be true for older people (not having kids, obviously) but the other stuff about spending and stimulating the economy. I may be 66 but I still shop and spend money same as ever. I hate the way society presumes that all of us older people are at home knitting or something and not contributing members of society. Like giving us a break on something wouldn't help stimulate the economy. We are facing great hardships financially too. A lot of people my age don't even have IRA or 401K money to live on. It's increasingly a problem. And then we hear that Social Security is going to go bust, and even faster if Donnie cancels the tax on it, so where's our "forgiveness"?

And many of us older people have spent decades busting our asses and paying taxes - don't we get some kind of credit for that?

I don’t think it’s an either-or situation. I think you and everyone else in your generation earned their benefits. I think seniors are struggling with a crumbling social welfare system and deserve recognition of the years they worked and helped grow the economy in, for example, the form of an increase in social benefits. I think students and young adults are struggling with ever-increasing student loans and deserve some form of assistance because I don't think they should pay for higher education in the first place. 

I also don’t approve of the dismissal of what senior citizens (and the older population in general) contribute to society and I think it’s greatly underestimated. (And I’m not just talking about financial contributions because I think seniors contribute far beyond that).

I also don’t think we should let the struggle of one group prevent us from doing something about the struggle of another. I don't think there's anything to gain from that but that it would keep us from moving forward as a society.
(To give a couple of specific examples, vaccines or treatments may come too late for some/not work for some, or an immigration reform would benefit only those who go through the process after said reform. But I don't think we should let that prevent us from continuing medical research or pushing for an immigration reform. I believe we need to continue to push for change because we'll be better for it as a society. We can make lives better and in some way or another, I think it'll benefit us all).

What I think matters most is that while we do something about the struggle of one group, we don't ignore the struggles of the others. We need to acknowledge those other struggles, too, and do something about them as well or push for something to be done about them, so that the other group or groups doesn’t/don’t feel like they get left behind. (Weren’t changes/an increase to social benefits floated at some point either during the Biden campaign or early in his administration? I feel like I remember something about that). We need a system, society and an economy that sees everyone and works for everyone, so that we can have medical research, immigration reform, student loan forgiveness, increase in social benefits, tax cuts for the middle class and everyone below, and everything else a healthy economy needs, at the same time.

(I think Biden was taking us on that path but one of the biggest challenges that we’re facing is that the economy’s response time is sloooow. I believe that was reflected in the election results because many of the people who needed to feel the improved economy the most hadn’t felt it yet).

 

 

[bluegirl147]

3 hours ago, Yeah No said:

And many of us older people have spent decades busting our asses and paying taxes - don't we get some kind of credit for that?

I've heard a lot of younger people say they know they won't have any SS when they retire. They have more or less conceded that.  So their attitude seems to be since we won't get it why should we care.  But for those of us getting close to retirement, or at least the age we could retire, we can't concede we aren't going to get any.  Like you said, we have busted our ass.

 

4 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

On the surface, and in the short-term, I think it looks and is unfair. In the medium- and long-term, though, it benefits the country as a whole since a strong middle class is the source of economic growth. 

This is true but sadly for so many people it's all about "but what about me?"

4 hours ago, Soapy Goddess said:

But what about all the borrowers who managed to pay off their loans? Do you think it's fair to them to have struggled while others are forgiven??

Life isn't fair. It's just not.  Wish it was but it's not. Is it fair a state like Wyoming has the same number of Senators as California representing them when they have less people to represent?  Is it fair the top 1% pay less a percentage of their  taxes than anyone else? 

4 hours ago, Palimelon said:

But it isn't coming down so hard on straight white men. Its coming down on certain straight white men

But we all know how so many of those straight white men (actually a lot of times just men in particular) enable, defend, excuse and outright protect the bad ones.  We have two men sitting on SCOTUS who had credible sexual misconduct allegations against them because men brushed those allegations aside.

6 hours ago, Annber03 said:

We've had nine years to do that, we've had nine years of "interivewing Trump supporters in a diner" type articles (when is there ever going to be an article like that about what the left wants, their fears and concers?)

I've been saying this for years.  Why don't we ever see interviews with people who aren't Trump supporters?  Admittedly I don't watch a lot of television news but I never saw them interview people in the crowds at Harris's rallies. But everyday I was seeing people at Trump rallies interviewed.  And I get it.  They are funnier to watch.  They say ridiculous things.  But to use a word @Yeah No uses the perception is number one there is more of them number two what they have to say is worth listening to and number three they care more about what is going on.  

15 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

For a significant part of the year, yes he and his wife will be living in Israel.

Sure let's put an end times evangelical in the middle of  war zone with Israelis and Palestinians fighting. That sounds like a good idea.

13 hours ago, FilmTVGeek80 said:

I know I for one have never said ALL 45 supporters are racist. But, I think a good chunk of them are or they don’t care that he is

It is the indifference some people have to his racism that bothers me.  Some of these people voted for Obama and now they vote for the man who used the birtherism to further his own political ambitions.  

[Ohiopirate02]

5 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

I've heard a lot of younger people say they know they won't have any SS when they retire. They have more or less conceded that.  So their attitude seems to be since we won't get it why should we care.  But for those of us getting close to retirement, or at least the age we could retire, we can't concede we aren't going to get any.  Like you said, we have busted our ass.

 

I've been paying into Social Security since 1997 and know I will never see a dime from that money. Congress has raided the SS fund since before then, so I have always known that I was never going to see that money. My retirement plan does not include it. There's only so much that I can care about those older than me who did not see the writing on the wall back in the 90s and are expecting SS money to last until they die. I am saving my energy to fight for the state pension plan I am forced to pay into. That money I care about getting returned to me in 2049 and beyond.

[PRgal]

On 11/12/2024 at 7:35 AM, Enigma X said:

I am going to be honest with you. People analyzing why he won and making scapegoats out of the marginalized are making me angrier than his win. The reason why he won is clear even if people want to say “the economy.” It is because people are racists and misogynists.  So many folks are trying to beat those charges right now, and it would be nice if people called them on their bull.

I disagree.  We need to understand WHY people feel this way.  Is it because they feel left out of the conversation?  If we want true equity and diversity, we need to let them speak as well.  Everyone has a voice.  You might say that White, Protestant males have always had a voice, but that’s only a minority of these guys.  The guys who did and still do have this kind of privilege tend to be well-educated and wealthy.  You can’t tell some random small town 35 year old who barely finished high school and is working in a job that could be at risk of being eliminated by new technology that he’s “privileged.”  He doesn’t feel that way.  I can see that and I’m supposedly “marginalized” due to my ethnicity and gender (this whole idea makes me laugh).  
 

[bluegirl147]

6 minutes ago, PRgal said:

We need to understand WHY people feel this way.  Is it because they feel left out of the conversation?  If we want true equity and diversity, we need to let them speak as well.  Everyone has a voice.

They are free to tell us.  But I have seen a lot of these people (and it's not just men) asked and some of them don't even know themselves.  My personal opinion is a lot of people see other people getting ahead, maybe people they think shouldn't be doing better than them, and it bothers them. We hear people say other people are cutting the line.  The issue is for all but the top 1% (and this is most places not just here) are not getting ahead.  And if that was addressed then maybe things could get better for the rest of us. You (not you specifically but the general you) don't think people like Trump benefit from the rest of us bickering over pronouns?  For years abortion was the issue they used to divide us. But they took it too far and now more and more people are against the bans. For years it was gay marriage and then that became legal. . So they come up with a new issue to divide us. Transgender rights.  And once that gets sorted out they will come up with another issue.  

[Yeah No]

1 hour ago, CheshireCat said:

What I think matters most is that while we do something about the struggle of one group, we don't ignore the struggles of the others. We need to acknowledge those other struggles, too, and do something about them as well or push for something to be done about them, so that the other group or groups doesn’t/don’t feel like they get left behind. (Weren’t changes/an increase to social benefits floated at some point either during the Biden campaign or early in his administration? I feel like I remember something about that). We need a system, society and an economy that sees everyone and works for everyone, so that we can have medical research, immigration reform, student loan forgiveness, increase in social benefits, tax cuts for the middle class and everyone below, and everything else a healthy economy needs, at the same time.

Thank you, I can't disagree with you there but I think a lot of the problem comes from ignoring the struggles of everyone, including older people, but I'm not saying you don't realize that. Age discrimination and prejudice is a real thing in our society and it extends to ignoring our very real struggles. The prevalent myth that Boomers were all financially lucky and sitting on piles of cash is one that's hard to buck. The vast majority of Boomers are decidedly NOT in that category, especially younger Boomers like myself. Anyone born after about 1956 or so is in that category. Many of us don't even consider ourselves Boomers, but part of "Generation Jones", which is in between the Baby Boom generation and Gen. X. Obama was as yet the only president from our generation and is on record agreeing with the Generation Jones concept. Harris would have been another member of our generation. We are usually lumped in with an older group that was often very different from us in terms of values, struggles and advantages.

52 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I've been paying into Social Security since 1997 and know I will never see a dime from that money. Congress has raided the SS fund since before then, so I have always known that I was never going to see that money. My retirement plan does not include it. There's only so much that I can care about those older than me who did not see the writing on the wall back in the 90s and are expecting SS money to last until they die. I am saving my energy to fight for the state pension plan I am forced to pay into. That money I care about getting returned to me in 2049 and beyond.

A lot of those people that "didn't see the writing on the wall" did see it but couldn't afford to set money aside for retirement. And many of the rest of us couldn't afford to set ENOUGH money aside. Our incomes could not handle it. I threw everything I could at my 401Ks. And on top of that, Social Security does not provide as much support as it used to, despite the COLA increases. 

My husband is 68 years old and is still employed full time. He doesn't know when he's going to be able to retire. Speaking of being disadvantaged, he came from incredible poverty. On top of that he was dyslexic and back in the stone ages when we were young no one knew what that was and he went undiagnosed. So forget about him ever being able to make a lot of money just because he was supposedly "privileged". He tried going to community college but had to drop out. He only found out he was dyslexic under a decade ago.

So this is the kind of straight white man that gets a bad rap because of the others and is assumed to be privileged enough to have done well when the real story is much more complicated than that. He had real disadvantages that lowered his ability to make money. And to make matters worse, people assume that because he never achieved a lot it's somehow his fault because after all, his maleness and whiteness should have flung doors open for him. Well, I can attest first hand that they did NOT, and it was not his fault either. So I think there are a lot of presumptions a lot of non-college educated straight white men don't deserve and have found offensive to them. Note that my husband is no Trump supporter, but believe me, we both understand why some men can fall prey to that.

And I am 66 but gave up looking for a job after losing mine several years ago thanks to age discrimination. I have never been one to cry discrimination but I know that I was on the receiving end of that both in losing my job and not being able to find another one. So now we are struggling yet again until I can collect my full Social Security next year. And even at that, if it goes bust in a decade once again I'll be SOL. So I haven't exactly had an easy time of anything in my life. And forget about the sexist attitudes I endured at the beginning of my working life and even all through it in some cases that held me back. People forget about those things. They think we all had it easy. There were many things back then that made our lives LESS easy. So that needs to be remembered as well.

Also, I have been hearing about SS going bust for decades but I don't really believe the gov't would ever let that happen. It would bring down society and the economy in a big way. They know they have to find the money somewhere to keep it alive or a lot of people would suffer, and not just older ones. I can see them continuing to raise the age to collect and cut corners in other ways, but not eliminate it altogether. The puny COLAs have already trimmed it down a lot. There is only so much they can cut before it really starts to hurt everyone, not just seniors. And heaven help us if Donnie gets his way about cutting the tax on it! That will only bring SS within 6 years of going bust! But again, I don't believe he'll get very far with that. At least I hope!

 

[bluegirl147]

3 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

It would bring down society and the economy in a big way.

I have always said this.  My husband was a chef and he said you could always tell when it was the third of the month because the restaurant would be filled with seniors.  People who depend on SS spend their SS each month.  Whether it is on rent or car payments or groceries.  So even if you don't care about what happens to the people getting SS it's not just them that would feel it.  

[graybrown bird]

Social Security is NOT going away.

[Yeah No]

1 hour ago, bluegirl147 said:

They are free to tell us.  But I have seen a lot of these people (and it's not just men) asked and some of them don't even know themselves.  My personal opinion is a lot of people see other people getting ahead, maybe people they think shouldn't be doing better than them, and it bothers them. We hear people say other people are cutting the line.  The issue is for all but the top 1% (and this is most places not just here) are not getting ahead.  And if that was addressed then maybe things could get better for the rest of us. You (not you specifically but the general you) don't think people like Trump benefit from the rest of us bickering over pronouns?  For years abortion was the issue they used to divide us. But they took it too far and now more and more people are against the bans. For years it was gay marriage and then that became legal. . So they come up with a new issue to divide us. Transgender rights.  And once that gets sorted out they will come up with another issue.  

Republicans are very good at exploiting the divisions within the Democratic party and electorate. We need to stop letting them do that to us. How? Well for starters our candidates can push back on the misinformation and fear tactics they use to scare people away from voting Democratic. I don't think they have done that enough. We also have to stop letting Republicans define us in the minds of the people. We need a clear general message that is based on where we agree as Democrats, not the picky finer points where we disagree. Somehow Donnie has been able to unite Republicans that way but we have not been able to do that. Of course part of the way he does it is by intimidation which we won't do. But I see uniting ourselves, and formulating a clear, united message that resonates with all Americans as the challenge we need to work through in order to be able to defeat them next time. And it's a big one!

ETA: I also think Dems. need to work on a message that pushes the point of including everyone, not just minorities, women and LGBTQ. If that's not clear to some people or they are being misled to it they need to hear it in a big way from candidates. Everyone needs to feel like they have a place at the table. The fact that they don't is why some people are being swayed to vote Republican, and not just Republican, but MAGA and Trump. And that sucks.

Edited November 13 by Yeah No

[PRgal]

46 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

They are free to tell us.  But I have seen a lot of these people (and it's not just men) asked and some of them don't even know themselves.  My personal opinion is a lot of people see other people getting ahead, maybe people they think shouldn't be doing better than them, and it bothers them. We hear people say other people are cutting the line.  The issue is for all but the top 1% (and this is most places not just here) are not getting ahead.  And if that was addressed then maybe things could get better for the rest of us. You (not you specifically but the general you) don't think people like Trump benefit from the rest of us bickering over pronouns?  For years abortion was the issue they used to divide us. But they took it too far and now more and more people are against the bans. For years it was gay marriage and then that became legal. . So they come up with a new issue to divide us. Transgender rights.  And once that gets sorted out they will come up with another issue.  

I'm not sure whether we're on the same page here.  I was talking about issues in a broader sense.  Boys DO matter, and telling some 12 year old that he has more advantages because he's male doesn't help if he has abusive parents, is lower income, has learning struggles, etc... 

And for something more election related, guess what?

Melania might not move back to the White House

[Dimity]

33 minutes ago, PRgal said:

I'm not sure whether we're on the same page here.  I was talking about issues in a broader sense.  Boys DO matter, and telling some 12 year old that he has more advantages because he's male doesn't help if he has abusive parents, is lower income, has learning struggles, etc... 

No one is telling 12 yr olds this.  Well no one except the extreme right who choose to believe this is the message given when women ask for an place at the table.  This has been happening since I was a 12 yr old myself.  And likely was happening when my grandmother was 12.   

When people said Black Lives Matter they weren't saying white lives don't - but it suited those in power to twist the message.  Same thing here.  The extreme right are twisting the narrative - no one is saying ALL white men have it good.  No one.  But how convenient to make it sound like this is what is being said - and how interesting that it's being said by a party that is led, currently, by a cabal of rich white men.

[bluegirl147]

11 minutes ago, Dimity said:

But how convenient to make it sound like this is what is being said - and how interesting that it's being said by a party that is led, currently, by a cabal of rich white men.

Yeah it's a little hard to say white men are being pushed out when they are still overwhelmingly in charge.

 

And from my own personal experience any white man I have ever known that complained about being further behind than they thought they should be it was because of their own life choices.  Not because society had shortchanged them.

Edited November 13 by bluegirl147

[Palimelon]

Privilege can mean many things.

It can mean you are much less likely to be noticed by police and other law enforcement officials and don't have to worry about things like DWB (driving while Black) or FWA (flying while Arab) or having someone stop you in the street and asking you to prove you are there legally or asked if you are a US citizen.

It can mean you are more likely to be approved for a bank loan compared to someone from a similar class status as you are but isn't the same skin color.

It can mean you don't usually have your credentials questioned once you are at a job or attending an educational institution and have to convince the person asking "No, that isn't how I got the job/university acceptance".

It can mean you don't have to deal with people asking why your English is so good or why you don't have an accent.

It can mean you don't have to think to yourself when there is a mass shooting "Please don't let the shooter be someone from my community" because you know that if the shooter is from your community, the general public will begin seeing you all like that.

It can mean when the shooter isn't a person of color, that person is described in terms of being a loner, someone who has mental problems, needs help, etc, as opposed to being described as a thug, a gang member, a terrorist, etc.

Privilege can be a lot of things. It isn't just related to being at the bottom of the social class ladder.

 

Edited November 13 by Palimelon

[Makai]

39 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

Yeah it's a little hard to say white men are being pushed out when they are still overwhelmingly in charge.

 

And from my own personal experience any white man I have ever known that complained about being further behind than they thought they should be it was because of their own life choices.  Not because society had shortchanged them.

Exactly this. When Harris was picking a VP, everyone I saw knew that it had to be straight, white, Christian man. White men haven’t lost power, they are just pissed they have to share power with people who don’t look or think like them. 

17 minutes ago, Palimelon said:

Privilege can mean many things.

It can mean you are much less likely to be noticed by police and other law enforcement officials and don't have to worry about things like DWB (driving while Black) or FWA (flying while Arab) or having someone stop you in the street and asking you to prove you are there legally or asked if you are a US citizen.

It can mean you are more likely to be approved for a bank loan compared to someone from a similar class status as you are but isn't the same skin color.

It can mean you don't usually have your credentials questioned once you are at a job or attending an educational institution and have to convince the person asking "No, that isn't how I got the job/university acceptance".

It can mean you don't have to deal with people asking why your English is so good or why you don't have an accent.

It can mean you don't have to think to yourself when there is a mass shooting "Please don't let the shooter be someone from my community" because you know that if the shooter is from your community, the general public will begin seeing you all like that.

It can mean when the shooter isn't a person of color, that person is described in terms of being a loner, someone who has mental problems, needs help, etc, as opposed to being described as a thug, a gang member, a terrorist, etc.

Privilege can be a lot of things. It isn't just related to being at the bottom of the social class ladder.

 

Yes! So many people get defensive when privilege comes up because they immediately focus on everything that makes them feel disadvantaged and they want to defend all the ways they don’t feel privileged. It just further alienates people. The basic reality is that most men can navigate the world without the same hypervigilance that is required of most women. 

And, most men do acknowledge that when it comes to the women in their lives.