Chit-Chat: The Feels

[Dimity]

A bright spot for me is I just learned Kari Lake lost. So yay for that much anyway.

[Annber03]

28 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

"Lefist" platforms fall victim to the opposition from the right that calls everything socialism or taking freedom away.  I know people who refuse to sign up for the ACA because they don't want to pay anything for health insurance.  So I say oh so you want universal health care.  And they say no that is socialism.  So then what the fuck do they want?  To die from a preventable disease?

Remember how "Get yoru government hands off my Medicare!" was a rallying cry for some when Obamacare was being implemented?

The stupidity, it truly boggles the mind. 

[bluegirl147]

In Kentucky the ACA exchange  was called Kenticky Connect or something like that.  Kentucky Republicans were telling Kentuckians while they were trying to repeal it they could keep Kentucky Connect. If I'm not mistaken Mitch McConnell was one of the ones telling them that.

[Calvada]

Now that I have had a few days to deal with my sorrow and disappointment, the following is what I am thinking about:

In the aftermath of 2020 election, the incumbent refused to acknowledge he lost; he refused to engage in the transition of power at a time when there was a worldwide pandemic; his followers conspired to have fake electors file false electoral ballots; he incited a mob that resulted in an attack at the U.S. Capitol that caused deaths, injuries to law enforcement, and the desecration of the Capitol with weapons and feces; he shrugged off reports that the mob he incited was seeking his Vice President in order to hang him; and he refused to attend the inauguration of his successor.  

Following the 2024 election, none of these things will happen.  There will be no Democratic-led criminal conspiracies to overturn the results of the election, the transition will be held in an orderly manner with integrity and civility, and there will not be riots and violent mobs incited by Joe Biden or Kamala Harris.

[Annber03]

56 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

You aren't wrong.  I can't remember the name of the book but the author went to Tennessee and interviewed people who would have benefited from the Medicaid expansion if their state had done so.  They were willing to go without so people they deemed undeserving would go without to.   Don't underestimate the hate some people have.  They will hurt themselves if the people they hate get hurt too.

And this is why I can't really agree with the people who keep blaming the Democrats' messaging as being the reason they lost. How exactly can they convince voters to support things like universal healthcare or better wages or things of that sort when people will refuse to support it simply because they don't want certain groups of people to benefit from something they think only they should be entitled to? 

My mom was just flipping through the channels and we caught the last bit of a documentary on the Vice channel about comedy after 9/11. They talked at one point about Jon Stewart calling out the GOP for refusing to support the Zadroga bill that would've benefitted first responders, and I feel like that should be a massive clue to voters just how long the  GOP has had little interest in supporting average citizens. A bill to support 9/11 first responders should be such a slam dunk, something that shouldn't even be up for debate, and yet it was. The supposed "pro-life" party had to literally be shamed into supporting this. They were more than happy to use New York for their own political benefit (remember Giuliani literally having a $9.11 fundraiser?) while in the same breath dismissing the city as part of those "coastal elites" who weren't prt of "real America", because people in this part of the country couldn't possibly relate to their "New York values".

And this is the same party that people think is genuinely going to give a shit about working class people's economic struggles? A party that's led by a guy who's paling around with fucking Elon Musk? Okay. 

I know people talk all the time about the Democrats running on "identity politics" and whatnot, but the fact is that people should care about how a political party treats minority groups, because if they can't protect the basic rights of those groups of people, they sure as hell aren't going to be any better at protecting the rights of others. A party that doesn't spend all its time actively trying to take away people's civil and human rights is a party that will be more likely to actually spend time focusing on the issues that voters claim to care so much about, like, say, the economy. Amazing how much actual work you can do when you aren't tied up in stulpid culture war nonsense. 

[bluegirl147]

That has been the goal of the right for decades.   Have us fight over culture issues while they make themselves richer and richer.  

[tearknee]

The average person hates being made to feel stupid

 

("Oh, God! Not another professor!")

 

Most people are also not poli-social activists, and they are apolitical.

 

The "advocacy groups" don't actually represent their marginalized community because of the above. 

[Palimelon]

Quote

Amazing how much actual work you can do when you aren't tied up in stulpid culture war nonsense. 

As one article I read today said:

"The Republican’s second presidential term heralds a more inward-looking US where resentment has replaced idealism and nobody wins without someone else losing."

 

 

[bluegirl147]

Yes there are plenty of people who feel like if someone else gets something (the right to marry, the right to decide what happens to their body, the right to exist) then somehow they are having something taken away from them.

[Enigma X]

 

29 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

I know people talk all the time about the Democrats running on "identity politics" and whatnot, but the fact is that people should care about how a political party treats minority groups, because if they can't protect the basic rights of those groups of people, they sure as hell aren't going to be any better at protecting the rights of others. A party that doesn't spend all its time actively trying to take away people's civil and human rights is a party that will be more likely to actually spend time focusing on the issues that voters claim to care so much about, like, say, the economy. Amazing how much actual work you can do when you aren't tied up in stulpid culture war nonsense. 

You don't throw marginalized people under the bus to bow to the will of your oppressors. Yet, I am unfortunately hearing some Dems are considering it. I have no idea about flipping someone blue, but this isn't it.

[tearknee]

4 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

 

You don't throw marginalized people under the bus to bow to the will of your oppressors. Yet, I am unfortunately hearing some Dems are considering it. I have no idea about flipping someone blue, but this isn't it.

Your idea would worsen the Dems' problems a thousand-fold.

 

[BetyBee]

36 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

That has been the goal of the right for decades.   Have us fight over culture issues while they make themselves richer and richer.  

So true! I'm old enough to remember when the supporters of St. Ronnie claimed Jesus for their side. As a lifelong Christian, I was appalled. Subsequently, there was Hatriot radio and Fox News pouring hate for liberals and Democrats into their viewers and listeners all the live long day. Now sources have expanded to Newsmax and even main stream media. All the while they whine that the media is left leaning. It absolutely is NOT. I'm tired of the hate and the hypocritical so called Christians who would run Jesus out of town on a rail if He tried to preach the Sermon on the Mount today. They are more interested in the Old Testament. They don't care about women bleeding out in parking lots due to Trump abortion bans or people dying from a lack of health care or hungry children or separating immigrant children from their parents forever. They claim to support the troops but cut their benefits every chance they get. We are living in very difficult times and it will be worse come January. 

[bluegirl147]

26 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

 

You don't throw marginalized people under the bus to bow to the will of your oppressors. Yet, I am unfortunately hearing some Dems are considering it. I have no idea about flipping someone blue, but this isn't it.

My fear is how many Democrat politicians are going to shift to the right for their own political survival.  

[Dimity]

5 minutes ago, BetyBee said:

They don't care about women bleeding out in parking lots due to Trump abortion bans or people dying from a lack of health care or hungry children or separating immigrant children from their parents forever.

If they don't even care about the possibility of their own children being shot for the crime of sitting in a classroom on the wrong day then there's no hope at all that they will care about anything else.  As The Trump says, they just need to get over it.

[Palimelon]

Sadly I've been seeing more than a few articles about how autism might be the next battle in the culture wars.

Quote

If they don't even care about the possibility of their own children being shot for the crime of sitting in a classroom on the wrong day then there's no hope at all that they will care about anything else

If they are going to want to shove the 10 Commandments in every classroom, at least make sure it is printed on steel and there are enough copies for each kid to shield themselves with.

[Enigma X]

2 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

My fear is how many Democrat politicians are going to shift to the right for their own political survival.  

Right. I read that some are already doing that. Once again, it is the left who are making accommodations as usual. 

[tearknee]

Going to the left is now seen by many in the Dems as a very quick way to become a former Congress person [and is seen as just as quick a way to be a former MP in the UK and Oh, Canada].

[Eri]

I think Trump played to the individualism imbedded in American capitalism ("my family, my grocery bill, my taxes") nothing about the common good which is what is needed but feels like a threat; a great deal of working class voters resonated with that also - it drives the culture here. It doesn't even feel like a country anymore - it's 50 separate entities fighting over resources.

All these "tough choices" people keep muddling over boils down to..

1) I don't care about THOSE issues

2) I don't think these policies will affect me

However, I don't think we should be embracing authoritarianism to "get ahead."

Edited Sunday at 05:07 PM by Eri

[Avaleigh]

I've been thinking about the long-term impact of Trump being around as a political candidate for the better part of a decade. In some ways, the Supreme Court is the worst and most frightening part of his legacy, but I've long been even more concerned about the legacy of "fake news". 

Trump made it fashionable to use this term and it's evolved in such a way that he doesn't really even have to use it anymore. He can just claim that the MSM are out to get him as usual, and people blindly accept it. Now, when people are confronted with facts they don't like or truths that leave them feeling uncomfortable (or even privately ashamed however briefly), they just make themselves feel better by saying it isn't real or immediately reach for "alternative facts" that support whatever BS nonsense they want or don't want to believe is true. 

I don't think it can be overstated how damaging this has been to us as a country long-term. It's so frustrating too because we live in an information age where almost everything can be fact checked, so in some ways it's easier than ever to check people and politicians on their lying BS. Unfortunately, confronting certain people with facts is almost useless if they simply choose not to believe them. Many of us saw Trump being checked in real time during the most recent debate. None of this stuff mattered to the people who voted for him. They either didn't believe the fact checking or believed it and didn't care, because they think the otherside is worse for whatever reason. 

It's a massive problem that needs to be overcome and I can't even begin to see how to effectively tackle it.

Edited Sunday at 06:36 PM by Avaleigh

[krankydoodle]

I remember watching an interview with Newt Gingrich years ago where he claimed that violent crime was on the rise. The reporter pushed back saying that FBI data didn't support that and that violent crime across the country was actually down, but he countered that Americans didn't feel that was true so that's what he was going with. I mean what do you even do with that? It's vibes over facts, I guess.

[Yeah No]

23 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I feel defensive on behalf of some of these people. No, I obviously don't  mean the openly hostile, sexist, racist, homophobic assholes who were MAGA before it was even being called that. I know that my mom isn't a racist and that isn't the reason she's voting for Trump. I also understand that she is consuming lies and party propaganda. She genuinely believes that she is a patriot and that Trump will help get the country on what she thinks is the right track. It also, seems to mean nothing to her that she has nothing in common with Trump. I actually think he has contempt for the things that are important to her, but somehow she doesn't see it that way. I get prickly when people paint all Trump supporters with the same brush because they aren't a monolith. I also don't want to cut off the people that I love because I disagree with them about politics. It wouldn't help anything, it would just make me feel sad. 

I agree with you, and we should also remember that a lot of the people that voted for Trump this time didn't vote for him in previous elections. Many of them are independents and people whose minds change depending on what issues are most important to them and who they think the best choice is to address them. These are people I think have been seduced into voting based on their wallets and who they think will lower prices and make their lives more affordable in general. I think they were wrong about that and they are being too myopic and self centered in voting on one issue only. These are people that are so confused that they've lost the bigger picture and how the potential negatives outweigh the positives with Trump. And voting is not just about their wallets but about everyone's issues and what is best for the country, not just THEM.

22 hours ago, kittykat said:

I can listen to Trump voters tell me not to take it personally.  That they truly were thinking about the economy and their families.  And I can even empathize with that.  I don't want Trump voters lurking and posting here feeling like they're not welcome.  We appreciate your insight your reasoning, but in return, we reserve the right to tell you why our side feels betrayed, angry and honestly fucking hopeless.

I know Trump supporters, one of my friends is one. I can't demonize them. First of all it plays into the MAGA BS about Democrats being hypocrites who are not for inclusion at all because they hate the common man. Secondly, and this is a big point for me, is an old Christian saying that we should not hate the sinner but the sin. I think my friend is misguided but she is not evil. One of my specialties when I studied Philosophy was ethics and I believe that basically good people can make bad choices. In fact, we all do because none of us is completely consistent or perfect. Some of us make bad choices from out and out selfish, destructive motivations, but many do so out of ignorance and weakness of mind and character. These are the people that want everyone to be happy, they're just mistaken/misguided about who and what to put their trust in to achieve that goal. And they're not taking the big picture into account either. I can't be as mad at them as for the former group. And I know many people in that category.

[Makai]

2 hours ago, Palimelon said:

"The Republican’s second presidential term heralds a more inward-looking US where resentment has replaced idealism and nobody wins without someone else losing."

 

Heralds? I knew before I looked the writer was a white man. Welcome to the world women and people of color have been living in for way too long. Which, if we’re being honest, is part of the problem. “First They Came” is incredibly applicable today. 

3 hours ago, Annber03 said:

My mom was just flipping through the channels and we caught the last bit of a documentary on the Vice channel about comedy after 9/11. They talked at one point about Jon Stewart calling out the GOP for refusing to support the Zadroga bill that would've benefitted first responders, I feel like that should be a massive clue to voters just how long the  GOP has had little interest in supporting average citizens.

When I was first becoming aware of politics in the mid-90’s my mom told me that she could never join a party that wanted to force babies to be born but didn’t want to take care of them after they were alive. She also told me a story of a girl she went to high school with who died after having an illegal abortion. Both stories drove home for me that you are exactly right. 

2 hours ago, BetyBee said:

I'm tired of the hate and the hypocritical so called Christians who would run Jesus out of town on a rail if He tried to preach the Sermon on the Mount today.

Yesterday, I heard this poem that really hit home for me. I’m tempted to quote the whole thing but it’s long so all just quote a few bits. 

Quote

What the hell did you expect me to do?

You told me to love my neighbors, to model the life of Jesus. To be kind and considerate, and to stand up for the bullied.

You told me to love people, consider others as more important than myself. “Red and yellow, black and white, they are precious in His sight.” We sang it together, pressing the volume pedal and leaning our hearts into the chorus.

Quote

What the hell did you expect me to do?

 

You passed out the “WWJD” bracelets.

I took it to heart.

I thought you were serious, apparently not.

 

We were once friends. But now, the lines have been drawn. You hate nearly all the people I love. You stand against nearly all the things I stand for. I’m trying to see a way forward, but it’s hard when I survey all the hurt, harm, and darkness that comes in the wake of your beliefs and presence.

 

What the hell did you expect me to do?

 

I believed it all the way.

I’m still believing it all the way.

Which leaves me wondering, what happened to you?

 

Edited Sunday at 06:21 PM by Makai

[Yeah No]

  

22 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

My question is, how does the Democratic party win over the people they've lost? How do they get back some of the people who have lost faith that they are the best party for the working class? 

If people aren't interested in winning over anyone who voted for Trump this time around, how do we bridge the gap so that this doesn't happen when Vance or Trump Jr. decides he wants to run in four years?

I can understand people feeling frustrated that the Democrats are often the ones who are expected to compromise or reach across the aisle, I just don't know how else we're supposed to bring people back to the party if there isn't some sort of way to focus on the areas where there is common ground. We've suffered a huge loss here, so clearly something needs to change if we don't want this to happen again.

At the end of the day, most people want the same things. They want to feed and protect their families. They want jobs, they want basic items to not cost so much, they don't want to feel persecuted, etc. How can we build on that in a way that translates into more votes?

Unfortunately I think the Democratic party is paying right now for its refusal to understand who and what the average American is and wants. They keep playing from the same old tired playbook and it's lost people. MAGA has actually changed people's point of reference about themselves and what will help them achieve their goals. The only way to get them back is to hit it head on with candidates that are plain talking, plain dealing people that make them feel seen, appreciated, and above all, included. As much as I love Mayor Pete even he seems too above the average person at times, although I do think he could overcome that if he were to become a candidate. But even at that he might be a little too cerebral for the average American today, and perhaps not charismatic enough. Unfortunately the Dems. right now don't have anyone charismatic enough to hit all the bells and whistles to counter Trump. When he is not running it might be easier for them.

The average person isn't interested in 20 pronouns and woke-speak. I am a centrist Democrat from way back and I actually think the Democratic party has gone way left in the past 20 or so years. It's not that America has gone way right, it's that the Democrats have veered farther left than they once were, and THAT's what's alienated the "average American".

You know it's pretty bad when Van Jones is complaining about how "they make up a new pronoun every week just to make you feel stupid" (his words)!

I have this conversation with a good friend a lot. He is 62, a lawyer, and one time head of his town's Democratic committee, and describes himself as a "New England Liberal from way back". I would agree with that, but he is not as liberal as he thinks he is, at least not anymore. I keep telling him how in today's Democratic party he would be considered a centrist. I have brought up issues to see how he reacts to them and he reacts the way I do. We have not changed, the party has changed around us. Note that being a "centrist Democrat" is not the same as being a centrist period. It's already a little farther left than if you factor in all the Republicans and Conservatives out there.

[Palimelon]

Interesting. I consider myself on the left side of things and I feel the party has moved much closer to the center.

[bluegirl147]

While I understand there is a significant portion of this county doesn't want to hear about pronouns.  Doesn't want to hear about asylum seekers.  Or hear about new Green Deal but does that mean those things shouldn't be talked about?  

I might disagree with Republicans who have different fiscal policies but when Republican policies are denying Transgender men and women health care, denying pregnant women health care they need and demonizing immigrants for simply wanting a better life the disagreement turns into disgust.  

[PRgal]

4 hours ago, Dimity said:

Perhaps  as well I am speaking from a Canadian perspective. Left of centre here would be the NDP or the Green party.

But a party in the US with a platform similar to the NDP would be far, far left!  My ideal government would have a Red Tory (I think the American equivalent is a Rockefeller Republican) philosophy who is socially liberal and fiscally conservative.  I'm not sure if I'm a super-fan of the politicians Wikipedia cites since they were from long ago and their idea of "socially progressive" would be seen as regressive today (LOL).  

Note to Americans:  In Canada (and I believe the rest of the Commonwealth), left and right switch colours.  Our Liberal Party is red while our Conservatives are blue. :) 

[Dimity]

6 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Our Liberal Party is red while our Conservatives are blue. :) 

Which has been incredibly confusing for me these last few months!!!

[Bookworm 1979]

I don't want Trump supporters here. I'm tired of always having to be the bigger person. I've already put a few posters on ignore, and I've blocked so many accounts on my social media. I'm so grateful that a lot of my family and people I work with are horrified that Trump was elected (and I live in Alberta, which is the Texas/Florida of Canada).

[Yeah No]

 

21 hours ago, Dimity said:

She  makes some good points but one thing she talks about I will never understand.  She says the Dems made a mistake in embracing endorsements from people like Beyonce because most voters can't even afford a ticket to one of her concerts.   Ok.  But how does that explain the support born with a silver spoon in his mouth Trump has received?  It's not like Trump has ever pretended he's not a rich man who has always moved in rich man circles.  Does he have the common touch because Kid Rock endorsed him?

It's not about their backgrounds or their incomes, it's about the perception of who they are as people and what they represent. In the minds of the working class, Beyonce is identified with the rich elite woke left while the average Joe out there would have no problem inviting Trump down for a beer and a chin wag at their local bar or truck stop. I don't agree with them but I see their point of view.

19 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

I’ve been wondering the same thing. A lot can happen in two months.

I actually am afraid that the assassination attempts on Trump will continue and escalate.

19 hours ago, bluegirl147 said:

IMO Trump's goal was to stay out of jail.  Even in his first term he didn't really like the actual job of being president.  With Vance as a willing accomplice I can see him opting out of the day to day governing and leaving that to his VP and Musk of course who I fear will be the one actually calling the shots.

I am very afraid of this. Musk is dangerous. It's like letting Sheldon Cooper run our country.....

3 hours ago, bluegirl147 said:

The problem is what is considered centrist is farther right now because the right is so much farther right. I mean Joe Manchin was called centrist.   

I think both sides are farther to the extremes - The left is farther left and the right is farther right.

17 minutes ago, Palimelon said:

Interesting. I consider myself on the left side of things and I feel the party has moved much closer to the center.

Recently it is trying to counter the perception of being too far left because it knows it has that reputation among Independents and Republicans. I really noticed how Kamala was trying very hard not to look too liberal in her campaign, but unfortunately the other side spread so much propaganda about her to make her look left of Lenin that they didn't buy it. 

Also, when I go back and listen to Democratic candidates from 30, 40, 50 years ago they don't come off as liberal as they do now. In fact they sound very middle of the road to my ear. They also addressed the average person's issues, not just human rights issues, although they did address those too. And apart from THE most liberal candidates, they didn't push the most left leaning policies either.

19 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

While I understand there is a significant portion of this county doesn't want to hear about pronouns.  Doesn't want to hear about asylum seekers.  Or hear about new Green Deal but does that mean those things shouldn't be talked about?  

No, of course not, but the average person feels that this has taken over the Democratic party's focus. Human rights are VERY important but if you talk about that and don't put enough emphasis on people's real world daily survival concerns it doesn't look like you care about them and what they need. I think a lot of Democratic politicians didn't realize how they were coming off. I also don't think they realize just how the right was making people think that they didn't care about their wallets and only cared about LGBTQ issues and the like, and they didn't combat that perception effectively enough.

[PRgal]

7 minutes ago, Bookworm 1979 said:

I don't want Trump supporters here. I'm tired of always having to be the bigger person. I've already put a few posters on ignore, and I've blocked so many accounts on my social media. I'm so grateful that a lot of my family and people I work with are horrified that Trump was elected (and I live in Alberta, which is the Texas/Florida of Canada).

We (here in Ontario) know that people there are all sorts of nuts!!  Honestly, the only Texas thing about you guys is the oil.  Otherwise, I think you're more like Mississippi.  #sorrynotsorry 

 

I stand by my 2024-style Red Tory-leaning philosophy, loud and proud.  Hope that's okay.

[Dimity]

14 minutes ago, Bookworm 1979 said:

I'm so grateful that a lot of my family and people I work with are horrified that Trump was elected (and I live in Alberta, which is the Texas/Florida of Canada).

The friends and relatives I have in Alberta would agree with that assessment - especially with your current Premier.  Not that we in Ontario have any right to brag!

[Yeah No]

7 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

Recently it is trying to counter the perception of being too far left because it knows it has that reputation among Independents and Republicans. I really noticed how Kamala was trying very hard not to look too liberal in her campaign, but unfortunately the other side spread so much propaganda about her to make her look left of Lenin that they didn't buy it. 

Also, when I go back and listen to Democratic candidates from 30, 40, 50 years ago they don't come off as liberal as they do now. In fact they sound very middle of the road to my ear. They also addressed the average person's issues, not just human rights issues, although they did address those too. And apart from THE most liberal candidates, they didn't push the most left leaning policies either.

No, of course not, but the average person feels that this has taken over the Democratic party's focus. Human rights are VERY important but if you talk about that and don't put enough emphasis on people's real world daily survival concerns it doesn't look like you care about them and what they need. I think a lot of Democratic politicians didn't realize how they were coming off. I also don't think they realize just how the right was making people think that they didn't care about their wallets and only cared about LGBTQ issues and the like, and they didn't combat that perception effectively enough.

Replying to myself here - Also I think one of the reasons Joe won in 2020 is that he was not identified with the "woke left" like other candidates were. He was too old, too establishment Democrat from way back when things were "sane" and not "off the rails left" to be identified with that. I don't remember him spouting woke terminology but I do remember him doing everything he could to distance himself from "the squad". He pushed that he was his own person and didn't kowtow to any factions within the party. And I think given his background, people found that believable. When Kamala tried that people didn't believe it. She was already branded as an ultra-liberal by the right and she is from California which already has a reputation for being about as ultra-liberal as you can get. And being a minority and a woman didn't help the perception. 

[Makai]

3 hours ago, bluegirl147 said:

My fear is how many Democrat politicians are going to shift to the right for their own political survival.  

I have that same fear but I think whether or not that happens will depend a lot on what the first few years of Trump’s term goes. The portion of the voting population that decides elections are not voting on ideals and unless things get noticeably better quick they tend to vote against the party in power. Trump capitalized on the mistaken belief by the many that the president is responsible for prices and people honestly believe that Trump being elected means prices will drop substantially across the board. And that’s without factoring in his tariff and deportation plan. 

If the Democrats underperform in 2026 though, all bets are off. 

1 hour ago, Yeah No said:

It's not about their backgrounds or their incomes, it's about the perception of who they are as people and what they represent. In the minds of the working class, Beyonce is identified with the rich elite woke left while the average Joe out there would have no problem inviting Trump down for a beer and a chin wag at their local bar or truck stop. I don't agree with them but I see their point of view.

I think the subset of people you are describing is a lot more narrow than the working class or average Joe. Most people just don’t care either way. I generally despise the saying I am about to use but it is applicable here. For the average American citizen, it’s not that deep. They are struggling and they wanted relief. Biden/Harris/democrats are in power so electing them means more struggle. Trump is unlikable so they either voted for him in hopes he would improve their pocketbook or didn’t vote. 

Much is already being made of Trump’s gains in California, which is fair, but my moderate conservative county went red after being blue in 2016 and 2020 but turnout was down 30%. I’ve see people stunned San Bernardino County flipped but voter turnout was down 32%. 

Edited Sunday at 08:10 PM by Makai

[Dimity]

In the last few days I am seeing such an uptick in memes and posts etc on social media where the message essentially is "I have the right to be offensive".  It's going to be a long 4 years.

[Yeah No]

7 minutes ago, Makai said:

I think the subset of people you are describing is a lot more narrow than the working class or average Joe. Most people just don’t care either way. I generally despise the saying I am about to use but it is applicable here. For the average American citizen, it’s not that deep. They are struggling and they wanted relief. Biden/Harris/democrats are in power so electing them means more struggle. Trump is unlikable so they either voted for him in hopes he would improve their pocketbook or didn’t vote. 

Sure, some average Americans voted for Trump on wallet issues alone but there is a sizable and arguably larger group of Trump supporters that have bought into this fiction that he's like them, an average person that just happened to achieve the American Dream because he was "so smart" or whatever they think he is. And many of those supporters actually LIKE him! They think he is a big badass that tells off all the "self important" liberals and puts them in their place. They actually CHEER him when he does that because it's just what they wish they could do themselves. These are not people who don't care about what Trump represents. In fact, what he represents is EVERYTHING to them!

I think most of the people that voted on wallet issues alone were the ones that held their nose and voted for Trump because of what he could do for their money troubles and they just decided to overlook the rest. I would venture to guess that many of the people in that category could have been swayed to vote against Trump if they felt the opposing candidate could help them with their most pressing concerns.

[bluegirl147]

Trump has a base that will never blame him.  If the economy tanks because of a mass deportation and/or tariffs they will still be on his side and by extension Republicans.  

If Democratic politicians move right that only hurts the very people Democrats say they want to help.  

 

[Dimity]

1 minute ago, Yeah No said:

I think most of the people that voted on wallet issues alone were the ones that held their nose and voted for Trump because of what he could do for their money troubles and they just decided to overlook the rest. I would venture to guess that many of the people in that category could have been swayed to vote against Trump if they felt the opposing candidate could help them with their most pressing concerns.

This is what I am clinging to in terms of 2026.  Trump can't deliver on his promises with regard to the economy - at least not in the way his supporters think he can.  And when that happens, at the very least, there will be consequences during the mid-terms.

[bluegirl147]

2 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

Sure, some average Americans voted for Trump on wallet issues alone but there is a sizable and arguably larger group of Trump supporters that have bought into this fiction that he's like them, an average person that just happened to achieve the American Dream because he was "so smart" or whatever they think he is. And many of those supporters actually LIKE him! They think he is a big badass that tells off all the "self important" liberals and puts them in their place. They actually CHEER him when he does that because it's just what they wish they could do themselves. These are not people who don't care about what Trump represents. In fact, what he represents is EVERYTHING to them!

 

These are the people I will have no sympathy for when they feel the negative effects of Trump's second term.   

[Yeah No]

9 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

These are the people I will have no sympathy for when they feel the negative effects of Trump's second term.   

Yeah, I admit I will have trouble feeling sympathy for them too. I am still very angry at them. I am just so sad about what people have become. In the end I can't compromise my ethics for my wallet. Looking back on my life I am CERTAIN I would be a lot more well off if I had done that. I also would never admire a nasty bully and racist because he feeds into petty, selfish grievances. But in this case it's not just a matter of voting wallet vs. human rights, it's also a matter of cutting off your nose to spite your face. And they will regret that. I can only hope that it will wake them up. Too bad the rest of us will have to suffer for their misdeeds along the way.

Edited Sunday at 07:52 PM by Yeah No

[Makai]

1 hour ago, Yeah No said:

Sure, some average Americans voted for Trump on wallet issues alone but there is a sizable and arguably larger group of Trump supporters that have bought into this fiction that he's like them, an average person that just happened to achieve the American Dream because he was "so smart" or whatever they think he is. And many of those supporters actually LIKE him! They think he is a big badass that tells off all the "self important" liberals and puts them in their place. They actually CHEER him when he does that because it's just what they wish they could do themselves. These are not people who don't care about what Trump represents. In fact, what he represents is EVERYTHING to them!

I don’t disagree with the description only with the idea that it is a larger group. 

1 hour ago, bluegirl147 said:

Trump has a base that will never blame him.  If the economy tanks because of a mass deportation and/or tariffs they will still be on his side and by extension Republicans.  

If Democratic politicians move right that only hurts the very people Democrats say they want to help.  

 

I agree this is the real danger. It’s frustrating how many Latinos voted for Trump but they’re not the group that is responsible for Trump winning. That falls solidly on older white men and women. Kamala won with people under 45 and every ethnicity other than white. Data is showing the Millennials are bucking the trend of getting more conservative with age. 

The focus needs to be on reaching younger voters, particularly men. There’s a reason Republicans want to raise the voting age and give more voting power to parents. By 2028, the teenagers who lost the right to an abortion in high school will be of voting age.  

Edited Sunday at 08:57 PM by Makai

[Eri]

The sad reality is that the rightward shift to conservatism (and by extension, authoritarianism) is startling.
It's happening everywhere..

 

Except with the Mormons, they've had enough apparently lol.

But seriously, it's always the "better the devil you know" argument. One party actively wants me and/or those who look like me dead or to suffer and I'm supposed to "let it go?" Nah miss me with that.

 

2 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I don't think it can be overstated how damaging this has been to us as a country long-term. It's so frustrating too because we live in an information age where almost everything can be fact checked, so in some ways it's easier than ever to check people and politicians on their lying BS. Unfortunately, confronting certain people with facts is almost useless if they simply choose not to believe them. Many of us saw Trump being checked in real time during the most recent debate. None of this stuff mattered to the people who voted for him. They either didn't believe the fact checking or believed it and didn't care, because they think the otherside is worse for whatever reason. 

Yes, I'd like to think we all want the same things from our government but if the average voter can't even name their state senator/governor, local council members, state assemblyperson, mayor, city commissioner, head of school board, etc then we're in trouble. As it stands, we can't have a fair democracy when the electorate is often woefully misinformed and/or apathetic to the election process. I have a feeling by 2026 Congress is going to change again - Trump doesn't have to care about winning back his seat, but Congress folks will.

We need to get back to basics. I wish civics courses were mandatory across the country, because waiting until age 18 isn't cutting it anymore. Folks need to remember that all politics is local - if you're not happy with the laws in your state then you need to call/fax/email/write/voicemail these local reps to death and fight them on these issues (this should have been happening since Roe V Wade was overturned imo). Their offices all have websites that are on public record - make them work for you in ALL elections, not just every 4 years.

[Makai]

I just saw someone who really believed that the peace in Ukraine and Gaza are imminent. I can’t decide what is worse, that level of delusional belief in Trump or that they are honestly fine with the so much death and destruction while Russia and Israel were apparently just waiting for Trump to win. I’m lying, the second is so much worse. 

[bluegirl147]

3 minutes ago, Makai said:

I just saw someone who really believed that the peace in Ukraine and Gaza are imminent. I can’t decide what is worse, that level of delusional belief in Trump or that they are honestly fine with the so much death and destruction while Russia and Israel were apparently just waiting for Trump to win. I’m lying, the second is so much worse. 

I don't think Trump's base cares in the least about Ukraine or Gaza.  Trump will have no problem letting Putin and Bibi do whatever they want.   And for all the voters who didn't vote for Harris because they didn't think her and Biden were doing enough for Gaza I hope they at least feel remorse when things get worse. A couple days before election I read an interview with a voter who was disappointed with how the Biden administration handled Israel/Gaza and said they needed to be punished for not doing enough.   Too bad that voter won't be the one to suffer.

[kittykat]

35 minutes ago, Makai said:

have that same fear but I think whether or not that happens will depend a lot on what the first few years of Trump’s term goes. The portion of the voting population that decides elections are not voting on ideals and unless things get noticeably better quick they tend to vote against the party in power. Trump capitalized on the mistaken belief by the majority that the president is responsible to pricing and people honestly believe that Trump being elected means prices will drop substantially across the board. And that’s without factoring in his tariff and deportation plan. 

If the Democrats underperform in 2026 though, all bets are off. 

I really really hope that this not the strategy the Democrats implement.  If they're really thinking about evolving their plan to placate young, white male voters at the expense of everyone who voted for them this election I will be fucking furious.

It's an unfortunate reality but we need to accept that the younger Generation skewed more conservative this time but as to what the Democrats are going to do to expand their base is a series of conflicting solutions.  Can't go too far left or you'll lose undecided centrists.  Can't go too center or the far left votes third party or not at all.  I mean, what do they donate this point!!!  It's damned if they do, damned if they don't. And I'm sorry but I don't want the Democrats pandering to Joe Rogan/Andrew Tate wannabes who spend their free time review bombing female-led MCU projects and video games.

I'm so god-damned sick of the Democrats being held to a higher standard by both bases.  We're expected to be the ones to extend the olive branch and work with the other side, now we have to pander to white voters, who don't have all their rights on the line because they don't want to lose their privilege.  Heaven forbid a candidate runs on the platform of Everyone Deserves Equal Rights.

Identity politics are here to stay, Trump ran on identity politics by tapping into white identity and fragility. He and various Senators helped to envision a world of which men retake their "rightful" place as breadwinners and providers with the support of a woman who will willingly sacrifice their self and dreams for the security of man and family.  And economically and ego insecure men bought it. Not to mention women, there's a reason "trad-wife" is gaining traction online.

40 minutes ago, Makai said:

Trends are showing the Millennials are bucking the trend of getting more conservative with age. 

I can already see the BuzzFeed headline now.  "How Millennials are ruining Conservatism.". Funny how the so-called "lazy, entitled" generation were the ones that most likely voted for the greater good instead of themselves.  Sorry I am really heated today.

[Bastet]

On 11/10/2024 at 12:58 PM, kittykat said:

Identity politics are here to stay, Trump ran on identity politics by tapping into white identity and fragility.

Yeah, it's very clear "white Christian men" is being treated as the norm, with every combination different from that being an identity, but it not being an identity itself.  Democrats didn't campaign on being the party for women, racial/ethnic minorities, LGBTQIA people, etc.  Trump, as you said, is the one who put "identity" issues front and center by fearmongering in those who are so used to their privilege that equality for others feels like oppression of them, promising to reduce the rights of those scary marginalized people.  Right-wing media ran with that like a gold medal was on the line, and mainstream media didn't fact check.  Biden, Harris, and downticket Democrats simply responded by saying they were going to govern for all, which means protecting the rights - which are theirs via the constitution and existing federal and state laws - of those targeted communities. 

Edited Yest. at 02:08 AM by Bastet

[Makai]

32 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

I don't think Trump's base cares in the least about Ukraine or Gaza.

I agree. They care about the perception of power. They want to gloat. 

13 minutes ago, kittykat said:

I really really hope that this not the strategy the Democrats implement.  If they're really thinking about evolving their plan to placate young, white male voters at the expense of everyone who voted for them this election I will be fucking furious.

I find it interesting that you interpreted what I wrote in that way. That’s not what I meant at all. The right radicalization of young men and boys is a massive problem and they need a strategy to counteract it, not to caterer to it. 

13 minutes ago, kittykat said:

And I'm sorry but I don't want the Democrats pandering to Joe Rogan/Andrew Tate wannabes who spend their free time review bombing female-led MCU projects and video games.

Neither do I. I want to see left leaning men in the age group create their own media sources to present a different side. I’ve already seen a push for that happening online. A lot of voices who have traditional been silenced have become vocal through Kamala’s campaign and they can be what makes a difference. 

Edited Sunday at 09:12 PM by Makai

[Palimelon]

Quote

And for all the voters who didn't vote for Harris because they didn't think her and Biden were doing enough for Gaza I hope they at least feel remorse when things get worse

They weren't doing much for Gaza. Other than issuing stern warning and redlines which all got crossed.

Much of Gaza has been leveled, it's infrastructure in shambles, almost all of it's hospitals and schools are destroyed, and the north is being ethnically cleansed so it can be annexed soon. Not sure how much worse things can get by the time Trump assumes office, esp since Israel is still bombing the crap out of it.

[kittykat]

15 minutes ago, Makai said:

find it interesting that you interpreted what I wrote in that way. That’s not what I meant at all. The right radicalization of young men and boys is a massive problem and they need a strategy to counteract it, not to caterer to it. 

Absolutely true.  And yeah I didn't mean to disagree.  The radicalization is exactly what I was trying to convey you just said it better. Lewis Black is currently headlining my emotional control center. 

As far as a counteractive strategy, that would be to double down on reassuring the groups that voted for them will not abandon them.  Assemble a task force to discover what happened with 12 million no voters and learn how we regain their vote. There are enough white liberal voters out there I say keep the focus on Latino, Black, Indigenous groups, etc because sacrificing their needs for the safety of young white voters is a surefire way of further alienation of our further left base.

15 minutes ago, Makai said:

Neither do I. I want to see left leaning men in the age group create their own media sources to present a different side. I’ve already seen a push for that happening online. A lot of voices who have traditional been silenced have become vocal through Kamala’s campaign and they can be what makes a difference. 

Pod Save America is a left-leaning panel of men.  They did a spot on Kimmel a few nights ago processing what happened.

[bluegirl147]

For whatever reason left leaning media never does as well as right leaning media. Anyone remember Air America? Even before the internet and algorithms and all that negativity and hate and fear got more listeners/viewers.

For the life of me I will never understand how Joe Rogan became a political influencer.  The guy from Fear Factor?  Really?

[Bookish Jen]

7 hours ago, Dimity said:

Hunter Biden's laptop and Hilary Clinton.

Don't forget Obama's tan suit.