S04.E02: Gates of Heaven

[chaifan]

44 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

I'm happy we're seeing more of her too but I just want to clarify that we have not been told that this is actually Sazz's ghost. She mentioned to Charles last week (probably in other words) that she was a figment or function of his mind.

Yes, I chose my words poorly.  I didn't mean ghost as in otherworldly apparition.  I really meant it was Charles' imagination and that Sazz wasn't really there, but I was still glad to have Jane Lynch back on the screen.

10 hours ago, dwmarch said:

My thoughts as well. When she went back to take the deal in episode one, I assumed her old apartment at the Arconia was the price for her involvement.

I'm hoping Mabel took Eva's advice to heart, and negotiated for something bigger, something she could "build".  I don't know what that is, but I'm sure we'll find out. 

[Yeah No]

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

Yes, I chose my words poorly.  I didn't mean ghost as in otherworldly apparition.  I really meant it was Charles' imagination and that Sazz wasn't really there, but I was still glad to have Jane Lynch back on the screen.

 

Yup, I get it. I didn't mean to "pile on", so sorry about that!

[paigow]

2 hours ago, chaifan said:

I'm hoping Mabel took Eva's advice to heart, and negotiated for something bigger, something she could "build".

Maybe she can fund a legit vintage clothing / vintage inspired boutique based on her inherited wardrobe and jewelry stolen by Theo

[Affogato]

I fancy she continues to sleuth and paint portraits. 

[Chit Chat]

9 hours ago, Yeah No said:

When I graduated from college in 1980 my classmates thought a starting salary of $20,000 a year in NYC was a FORTUNE. And we had double digit inflation and interest rates then too.

Mabel's line of "renting for a bag of beans" bugged me too. I've heard several young people say things along the lines of "the Boomers own everything."  They don't realize that, as you said, in the early 80's, mortgage rates were 17%+.  For us average Joes who weren't making a lot of money, houses were almost unaffordable.  That's when they were pushing balloon mortgages (which we didn't do).  We found a way to get a small house (1000 sq ft) and got by just fine without luxuries.  Every generation has their struggles.  

Hopefully Mabel has just hit the lottery with this deal, and then she can buy or rent at the Arconia.  How fantastic for her!!

[secnarf]

1 hour ago, Chit Chat said:

Mabel's line of "renting for a bag of beans" bugged me too. I've heard several young people say things along the lines of "the Boomers own everything."  They don't realize that, as you said, in the early 80's, mortgage rates were 17%+.  For us average Joes who weren't making a lot of money, houses were almost unaffordable.  That's when they were pushing balloon mortgages (which we didn't do).  We found a way to get a small house (1000 sq ft) and got by just fine without luxuries.  Every generation has their struggles.  

Hopefully Mabel has just hit the lottery with this deal, and then she can buy or rent at the Arconia.  How fantastic for her!!

I read the "bag of beans" line as sarcasm, but even despite the insanely high interest rates in the 80s, housing was far more affordable relative to average salaries then - and has never been less affordable than it is now. I have watched and read many mathematical breakdowns comparing - usually they compare through the years from the 70s onwards. One of our local news stations runs it every so often also. And as for "boomers own everything" - which is not what Mabel was implying, I don't think - again the evidence is that since people are living longer, and wanting to live in their homes longer, there are fewer homes available for people wanting to break into the housing market, since supply has not kept up with population growth.

I also don't know that Mabel was specifically referring to the 80s. The real "Arconia" building is from 1908, and if I remember season 2 correctly, the fictional Arconia is also from around that time. The youngest boomers would have been buying houses in the early 1980s, but the oldest ones were well ahead of that.

The fact is, I could win a quarter of a million dollars tonight in the lottery draw, and I still would not be able to afford a small townhouse in my city, despite a 6-figure salary and a $100,000 down payment already saved up to add to the $250,000 in hypothetical lottery winnings. Obviously Mabel and I have very different situations, but I still chuckled at the bag of beans line, because I get it. Even the housing prices 5 years ago feels like a bag of beans compared to today.

[Chit Chat]

49 minutes ago, secnarf said:

And as for "boomers own everything" - which is not what Mabel was implying,

It bugged me because I've heard it said many times by young people lately, so maybe it was just coincidence that the line was written for her character, but I doubt it.  

51 minutes ago, secnarf said:

housing was far more affordable relative to average salaries then - and has never been less affordable than it is now.

It may have been for people who were making way more than Mr. Chat & I were!  We were just starting out in 1980 and probably made $25,000/year together!  One homebuilder pretty much laughed in our faces when we inquired about a home.  Luckily one realtor helped us out and got us headed in the right direction. She was an angel!  

Mabel is living in a very expensive city with no income.  She was lucky to live rent/bill free like she did.  Now that's the dream!!  

[Yeah No]

3 hours ago, Chit Chat said:

It may have been for people who were making way more than Mr. Chat & I were!  We were just starting out in 1980 and probably made $25,000/year together!  One homebuilder pretty much laughed in our faces when we inquired about a home.  Luckily one realtor helped us out and got us headed in the right direction. She was an angel!  

I could have written this! My husband and I talk about how the realtors wouldn't even give us the time of day in the '80s. And we were just starting out in 1980 too when things had gotten very difficult to afford. I think our income was probably just about the same as yours too.

4 hours ago, secnarf said:

I also don't know that Mabel was specifically referring to the 80s. The real "Arconia" building is from 1908, and if I remember season 2 correctly, the fictional Arconia is also from around that time. The youngest boomers would have been buying houses in the early 1980s, but the oldest ones were well ahead of that.

That's the thing - there was a big difference between what the oldest and younger boomers faced when they were just starting out. There may be some justification for Mabel's line with the older boomers because real estate and rents were a lot cheaper in the late '60s and early '70s in NYC than they got to be by 1980 and beyond. And the spiking interest rates and inflation had a LOT to do with that. We later boomers had double digit inflation and interest rates, and a tightening job market, something Mabel's generation has never even seen. Salaries were not going up as fast and it was more difficult to get a job. Add to this that more women were starting to enter the job market for the first time in large numbers, making it even tighter. But I do agree that the disparity between income and real estate prices in NYC has probably never been higher than it is now, but that doesn't even matter - unaffordable is still unaffordable even if it's by a lesser amount.

[ajsnaves]

After rewatching, I don’t think the shot came from the 14th floor, but the 13th. That bullet hole was about waist high on Charles. And Sazz was standing a bit away from the window, and was shot in her chest. Meaning the bullet had to have had an upward trajectory.  I suppose the rifle could have been braced on the windowsill, but I don’t know if that was low enough for that angle. (Look at me acting like I know what I'm talking about!)

[Affogato]

5 hours ago, ajsnaves said:

After rewatching, I don’t think the shot came from the 14th floor, but the 13th. That bullet hole was about waist high on Charles. And Sazz was standing a bit away from the window, and was shot in her chest. Meaning the bullet had to have had an upward trajectory.  I suppose the rifle could have been braced on the windowsill, but I don’t know if that was low enough for that angle. (Look at me acting like I know what I'm talking about!)

That sounds like a twist that will move the investigation along. 

[Chit Chat]

7 hours ago, ajsnaves said:

That bullet hole was about waist high on Charles. And Sazz was standing a bit away from the window, and was shot in her chest.

That sounds plausible to me!! 

[paigow]

Does the West Tower have a named 13th floor? That is, do the elevator buttons skip 13?

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, paigow said:

Does the West Tower have a named 13th floor? That is, do the elevator buttons skip 13?

Yes and you have to hold the buttons for 12 and 14 at the same time for a full minute to access it.  

Edited September 8 by Affogato

[shapeshifter]

Finally rewatched. So excellent.

5 hours ago, Yeah No said:

Selena Gomez is now estimated to be a billionaire:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/selena-gomez-billionaire-bloomberg-estimates-rcna170061

This👆real-life news about Selena Gomez being a newly-minted billionaire, combined with the show credits listing her as "Executive Producer," make me think part of Mabel's ask for the podcast rights was that she be listed as a producer for the movie, which would (I guess?) mean she would have rights to a portion of the profits?

 

On 9/7/2024 at 10:35 AM, Yeah No said:

I feel like all this ham stuff is a bunch of red herrings or the connection is something we'd never figure out before the very end.

Hrmmm. "Ham stuff"..... 
Teddy's deli…
Teddy's in prison, right?…
And Charles helped put him there.

I thought the spinet piano in the Dudenhoff apartment might have some significance since Oliver tripped and fell onto it so that it made noise, pointing its existence out to us. 

The daughter in the Sauce family had an Adams Family-esque hairline point over her forehead. Is that just the way the current Goths are styling it nowadays?

 

I covet Mabel's coat in this episode. 
[Googles]
*Sigh* 
$800: https://wornontv.net/457339/

 

Edited September 8 by shapeshifter

[Yeah No]

3 hours ago, paigow said:

Does the West Tower have a named 13th floor? That is, do the elevator buttons skip 13?

[Affogato]

3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Finally rewatched. So excellent.

This👆real-life news about Selena Gomez being a newly-minted billionaire, combined with the show credits listing her as "Executive Producer," make me think part of Mabel's ask for the podcast rights was that she be listed as a producer for the movie, which would (I guess?) mean she would have rights to a portion of the profits?

 

Hrmmm. "Ham stuff"..... 
Teddy's deli…
Teddy's in prison, right?…
And Charles helped put him there.

I thought the spinet piano in the Dudenhoff apartment might have some significance since Oliver tripped and fell onto it so that it made noise, pointing its existence out to us. 

The daughter in the Sauce family had an Adams Family-esque hairline point over her forehead. Is that just the way the current Goths are styling it nowadays?

 

I covet Mabel's coat in this episode. 
[Googles]
*Sigh* 
$800: https://wornontv.net/457339/

 

The connection to their first sponsor, I hadn’t thought of that. I’d spill coffee on that coat and lean on something dirty. I can’t have nice things, at least not light coloured ones. 

[ofmd]

Well, this episode worked better for me than the first one. The last third felt like OMITB again.

Jan was a highlight, both the dialogue and the actress!

I do hate, however, when our three heroes act particuarly dumb, even for them. Let's protect Charles, have him stay exactly where Sazz got shot, alone! (No, those blinds won't help.) - Let's destroy the crime scene even more! (That luminol stuff applied by total noobs would never hold in court etc.)

Also not a fan of the sped-up intro music.

As for the killer, I have no idea. Pretty sure it isn't the ham family, or even the person with Sazz' phone. What kind of pro assassin would keep it when in any sane universe, he'd been pinged and put in jail by now?

ETA: I'm wondering if the "Westies" remark was an allusion to Severance with the Innies/ Outies?

ETA: Dudenoff apt - the place from which dudes get offed?!

 

 

Edited September 8 by ofmd

[tessaray]

I didn't enjoy the Westies stuff, OhHell and ham. I like painfully weird in very small doses. The only good thing was Mabel appraising the empty apartment as a good size for a studio. And her coat. Mabel's coats are always a highlight. 

[Aryanna]

On 9/4/2024 at 9:41 PM, Snapdragon said:

Yes, it implies that the players of the Oh Hell game are the ones who set up the lock and are using the apartment for something.  It's a code that they'd all easily be able to remember.

This is my thought. 

I don't think we've met the killer. I think the Westies and their peculiar behavior is a red herring. Someone up thread mentioned that they said the ham came from Spain (or possibly Portugal). I missed that line. But that plays to what the detective was saying about the west tenants saying the resident of the Dudenoff apartment being in Portugal right now.

So I think their cagey behavior is all because they're afraid of being found out that they've been smuggling illegal ham from outside the country. I don't think it has anything to do with the murder.

Also...lotta ham references. The ham they eat, the little pig, ham radio...

[Enigma X]

If we have not met the killer yet, I hope by episode 3 we have. I am not saying it needs to be obvious, but there is nothing I hate more in a "whodunit" or "whodunit" adjacent storyline than to have the killer/culprit introduced in the second act.

[Aryanna]

On 9/8/2024 at 12:24 AM, Yeah No said:

We later boomers had double digit inflation and interest rates, and a tightening job market, something Mabel's generation has never even seen.

You do realize that 1980 inflation compared to 2023-24 inflation is not an apples to apples comparison, right? The methodology has changed considerably since 1980. I've seen some reports that say if the inflation of the last few years were calculated on the same methodology as in 1980, current inflation would be worse.

And finding a job is super difficult too. Most times a real human never sees your resume. And a lot of companies post jobs that don't really exist. This skews the stats. And if you do make it to the interview process, it's not uncommon to go through 7 to 10 rounds of interviews.

Then on the housing side...I don't know if you've looked lately (I have) but a sub 1000sf home in a low cost of living flyover state costs around $200K.

Couple that with less homes for sale and home ownership goes from delayed gratification to nearly impossible for many. The banks that got burned in 2008 have vowed to not make thst mistake again. So they buy up the homes but they don't sell them. They rent them. Then you also have property owners whose business is short term rentals like vrbo and Air BnB. This decreases the homes for sale and drives up housing prices. 

I don't wanna start a boomer vs millennial argument but I think we should at least be honest about what is being compared. 

[Yeah No]

55 minutes ago, Aryanna said:

You do realize that 1980 inflation compared to 2023-24 inflation is not an apples to apples comparison, right? The methodology has changed considerably since 1980. I've seen some reports that say if the inflation of the last few years were calculated on the same methodology as in 1980, current inflation would be worse.

And finding a job is super difficult too. Most times a real human never sees your resume. And a lot of companies post jobs that don't really exist. This skews the stats. And if you do make it to the interview process, it's not uncommon to go through 7 to 10 rounds of interviews.

Then on the housing side...I don't know if you've looked lately (I have) but a sub 1000sf home in a low cost of living flyover state costs around $200K.

Couple that with less homes for sale and home ownership goes from delayed gratification to nearly impossible for many. The banks that got burned in 2008 have vowed to not make thst mistake again. So they buy up the homes but they don't sell them. They rent them. Then you also have property owners whose business is short term rentals like vrbo and Air BnB. This decreases the homes for sale and drives up housing prices. 

I don't wanna start a boomer vs millennial argument but I think we should at least be honest about what is being compared. 

Unless you lived in that time and had to face what people like me faced in NYC at the time it's not an argument I think can be won merely by citing methodologies. Real life is not quantifiable with methodologies. There were a lot more hardships financial and otherwise that young people faced in those days than methodologies can account for that Millennials can't even imagine and would be shocked to find out if they could go back there and live through them, like how much harder on us the generations older than us were on us and how much they held us back and put us in our place compared to the way older generations now cater to young people. Not to mention how many fewer technological advantages we had to make our lives easier. But this is not the place to discuss those factors. And frankly I'm tired of younger people telling me I'm wrong when I've lived through both eras and know the difference first hand and they don't.

Also I've lived long enough to know that figures and statistics can be manipulated to make any case someone wants, and the fact that younger generations want to think they had it worse than we did makes this suspect to me from the get-go. And I doubt that the double digit unemployment rates or interest rates can be invalidated either.

I'm taking the rest of this to the small talk thread.

Edited September 11 by Yeah No

[Mod-Tigerkatze]

Hi everyone, 

I just wanted to leave a quick note to let you know that the recent posts about real estate costs and inflation have been moved to the Small Talk thread. 

Kindly remember to express disagreement in ways that respect each other as well as each other's opinions as you continue the discussion over there. 

Thank you!