S02.E07: The Red Sowing

[AntFTW]

14 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Of course Rhaenyra was careful in approaching Vermithor--just as everyone else was--but she mostly relied on Vermithor recognizing her as a dragon rider. Knowing how to speak to it in High Valyrian was exra.

"she mostly relied on Vermithor recognizing her as a dragon rider"

A judgement call she can make because she's knowledgeable of dragons and is a dragonrider as you mention. A judgment call the bastards can't make... because they know nothing.

[AntFTW]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

But there is no info that will reduce your odds of harm in this case. Saying there are was would be lying.

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

The problem is that painting a picture gives the wrong impression. Having more knowledge and some tips seems like it would be helpful. That's logical. Dragon keepers do, of course, learn how to behave around dragons as servants to them. 

But given what we've actually seen about a claiming situation, those tips aren't going to help. Ser Steffon did exactly what Rhaenyra did with Seasmoke, and Seasmoke responded by not only roasting Ser Steffon, but the handlers nearby. Claiming a dragon means presenting yourself for judgement by the dragon and that's it. It's not like bringing it food without angering it.

Note, after all, how Vermithor did not roast Hugh. 

Also, just to add to my previous points... something had to work for Rhaena to survive. I have to assume that Rhaena was not alone when she tried to claim a dragon, that there was some dragonkeepers there. What knowledge was taken from that? Why did she survive? I understand her scenario will not always be applicable.... but it's something rather than nothing.

Overall, I think they could have done a little better than "you might die." "The stairs are off to the side, and the nearest exits are there if you can make it."... anything.

Some knowledge is better than none. That's all. I'll leave it alone. I won't bug you anymore. ☺️

ETA: My entire point of these multiple rant-sounding posts is broader than once they're in the Dragonmont being eye-to-eye with a dragon. My point is beyond tips and tricks, if any, to survive once they're face-to-face with the dragon. My point is that they didn't have a fully informed choice from the start since they are making a life or death decision. As far as we see, they aren't told that in order to claim a dragon, you stand face-to-face with the thing, it sniffs you to see if it gets the 'warm and fuzzies', and if it doesn't choose you, you'll likely die. They aren't told beforehand that "if the dragon doesn't bond with you, it'll spit fire or eat you and you won't have time to run or escape, and you'll die. Now, knowing that, do you still want to go to the Dragonmont?"; "There are 50 of you. The dragon will choose one of you, and the rest of you will likely die. Do you still want to go to the Dragonmont?"; "Here are a few Valyrian commands we use to calm dragons down".... anything information that would help them make informed choices or decisions about claiming a dragon to survive is helpful.

Edited August 1 by AntFTW

[paigow]

1 hour ago, AntFTW said:

Overall, I think they could have done a little better than "you might die."

 

[bluvelvet]

1 hour ago, AntFTW said:

Also, just to add to my previous points... something had to work for Rhaena to survive. I have to assume that Rhaena was not alone when she tried to claim a dragon, that there was some dragonkeepers there. What knowledge was taken from that? Why did she survive? I understand her scenario will not always be applicable.... but it's something rather than nothing.

Overall, I think they could have done a little better than "you might die." "The stairs are off to the side, and the nearest exits are there if you can make it."... anything.

Some knowledge is better than none. That's all. I'll leave it alone. I won't bug you anymore. ☺️

ETA: My entire point of these multiple rant-sounding posts is broader than once they're in the Dragonmont being eye-to-eye with a dragon. My point is beyond tips and tricks, if any, to survive once they're face-to-face with the dragon. My point is that they didn't have a fully informed choice from the start since they are making a life or death decision. As far as we see, they aren't told that in order to claim a dragon, you stand face-to-face with the thing, it sniffs you to see if it gets the 'warm and fuzzies', and it doesn't choose you, you'll likely die. They aren't told beforehand that "if the dragon doesn't bond with you, it'll spit fire or eat you and you won't have time to run or escape, and you'll die. Now, knowing that, do you still want to go to the Dragonmont?"; "There are 50 of you. The dragon will choose one of you, and the rest of you will likely die. Do you still want to go to the Dragonmont?"; "Here are a few Valyrian commands we use to calm dragons down".... anything information that would help them make informed choices or decisions about claiming a dragon to survive is helpful.

Rhaena most likely knows high Valyrian and grew up with dragon knowledge. Clearly comfortable trying to get another even though she was almost eaten. I wish we had seen it, I don’t see Rhaena running fast enough to avoid being eaten. In my head he sniffed her and probably snapped his jaws at her but if he truly wanted to eat her, he would’ve. 

[AntFTW]

27 minutes ago, bluvelvet said:

Rhaena most likely knows high Valyrian and grew up with dragon knowledge. Clearly comfortable trying to get another even though she was almost eaten. I wish we had seen it, I don’t see Rhaena running fast enough to avoid being eaten. In my head he sniffed her and probably snapped his jaws at her but if he truly wanted to eat her, he would’ve. 

Yes. Rhaena grew up around dragons, and likely learning about dragons. Being raised by a grandmother who is an iconic badass Targaryen dragonrider probably helps because I'm sure Daemon wasn't teaching shit to anyone. Maybe Rhaenys gave her a ride on Meleys once or twice.

Rhaena (or maybe Rhaenys) was fully informed about dragons, and decided it was an acceptable risk to take. Once they decided to take the risk, whatever happened during that encounter, she survived.

As far as I can tell, the bastards are not informed on process of claiming a dragon. Like they told Ser Darklyn to "show no fear", no one told the lowborns that. No one tells them what's like to claim a dragon until they are in an inescapable position. "It must be the dragon who speaks" is told to them when the dragon is already in their faces; that would have been nice to know before Vermithor is looking them deciding "well done or extra crispy."

---

Seperately, one other point that I thought about is that Rhaenyra risked all the lowborns on Vermithor. If he had killed them all, what would have been left for Silverwing, the other dragon Rhaenyra also wanted to find a rider for?

Edited August 1 by AntFTW

[Roseanna]

13 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I don't know if Rhynaera is good at sizing people but I think we have been shown a few examples of her reading people fairly well and then making very bad calls. Christian Cole...good soldier but bad ex! Very bad ex.

Although Criston was foolish to suggest that Rhaenyra would abandon her position with all its benefits and elope with him, it showed what kind of man he was, so Rhaenyra was equally foolish to suggest that they would just continue their affair after her marriage. A white lie would haveen been balm for his self-esteem: "I love you, but must make a sacrifice for my country."    

It was like a modern politician or celebrity who wants a fling - it's better to choose a partner who understands the rules and doesn't tell.        

8 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Right, the mongrel slur was uncalled for and it's true they're really in no position to turn away dragonriders, but he did have a point about the precariousness of his positon. His dragon was the one fig leaf making people ignore his obvious Strong heritage, but if any Targ bastard can claim a dragon, what's to ensure his special positon as heir? People right here are questioning the loyalty of these strangers, so I don't get arguing the danger isn't real. Being raised as a prince and insulted as a bastard, it makes sense he would not want to be associated with lowborn bastards. He's had to tell himself he's different, better than other Targ bastards because unlike them, both of his parents are highborn, his mother the Queen and his bio father a great knight, who was heir to Harrenhal and son of the Hand of the King. He doesn't want to identify with bastards born in brothels of uncertain parentage. And with his remarks about hair color, he has to have complicated feelings about his legitimate, Valyrian-haired half-brothers. (I've seen it noted that when they left Dragonstone with Rhaena, he only said goodbye to Joffrey, not l'il Aegon and l'il Viserys.) Rhaenyra thinks it's enough that he's her eldest son, but her own problems should have taught her that being named heir and supported by the monarch cannot guarantee a smooth succession. By remarrying and having sons with an arguably better royal claim than her firstborn's, and just completely ignoring the possibility of another contested succession, she's doing exactly what her father did to her. And now she sidelining Jace in favor of her new girlfriend, which is also what Viserys did with Alicent after Aemma's death. (Even Jon Snow initially thought he was better than his lowborn brothers at the Wall.)

Yes, Rhaenyra has always, or at least after she was named as a heir, been entitled. She hasn't had any need to think about others' feelings and needs and especially how her own behavior influences on them. 

No doubt she loves her children and she has been fiercely protective for them, but it's different to be a good mother when kids are small and when they are teens or grown-up. She just can't understand how Jace feels, and even less take responsibility for her actions, i.e. how whisperings about bastardy influences on his self-confidence. 

The show arranged an impressing wedding scene between Rhaenyra and Daemon, with their children present. But did it us lead astray? Both Laena and Laenor had died just before - it would be rare if children just accepted a sudden remarriage.

In any case, we don't know at all how Jace feels towards his step-siblings. There is at least an age gap which means that they aren't so close than Luke with whom he had shared all.  

[Roseanna]

8 hours ago, meep.meep said:

If the dragons understand Valyrian, they could have taught them a few useful phrases in that language as a first step.

 

8 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Right! Knowing those few words that few words that Rhaenyra used to calm Vermithor when she called him might have been the difference the life and death; or the difference between the right thing to do or the wrong thing to do.

Have these people ever heard any words in High Valyrian? Do they know dragons respond to commands in High Valyrian? Probably not.

 

8 hours ago, baldryanr said:

To be fair to Rhaenyra, Silverwing and Seasmoke were perfectly happy to pick riders who had no idea how to speak a word of Valyrian, or do anything other than just cower in fear. 

In retrospect, maybe she shouldn't have started them off with "perhaps the most fierce" dragon nicknamed the Bronze Fury. 

 

8 hours ago, Lady S. said:

In the Inside the Ep, Ryan Condal compares the sowing to a ritual sacrifice and says the idea behind Rhaenyra's speech (which was Emma D'Arcy's idea) was a cult leader hyping up dragonpower after her cult-like dragonkeepers refused to take part. (Guess Addam's line about the gods calling him to greater things really went to her head. I think Rhaenyra believes the Old Valyrian gods are blessing her cause with worthy dragonriders.) So I don't think this is a case like Rhaenys casually killing bystanders in the dragonpit where the writers and actor misread their own work. Most of these royals pretty consistently dgaf about the smallfolk from Rhaenyra and Laenor allowing Daemon to kill a servant in Laenor's place, to Rhaenys escaping through the dragonpit with considerable collateral damage, to Alicent having Larys burn Mysaria's house down (which the White Worm escaped from, but there were probably other people inside) and torture/kill all her servants who reported to Mysaria, to Aegon indiscriminately hanging all the ratcatchers, to Aemond closing the city gates and replying "so?" when told of his subjects' discontent, but Rhaenyra having her guards stop people from fleeing dragonfire really is a new despicable low.

I admit I'd forgotten that Vhagar is meant to be too big for the dragonpit. Aemond's running leap onto horseback sure was impressive, but the distance struck me as another weakness. A dragonrider who actually knew what they were doing could have fried Aemond and his horse before reaching Vhagar.

I like to think that any Valyrian blood is helpful to bond with a dragon, so Corlys could've claimed one if he wasn't so busy being a boat guy. Before this, I think the Targs were much more restrictive about who had access to dragons and their eggs to avoid overmighty vassals. In fact, I think Laenor having a dragon is more proof that he was considered a potential future monarch until the Great Council passed him over along with his mother. (Rhaenyra's mother Aemma was also a female-line Targ but never rode a dragon.) We don't know how "pure" blood of the dragon really needs to be to have power but I think this dragon econimizing would explain their preferred practice of keeping it in the family.

 

7 hours ago, AntFTW said:

And in fairness to the bastards, they weren’t introduced to Vermithor the same way Seasmoke and Silverwing were introduced to their riders. Vermithor didn’t just bump into his rider by happenstance. Vermithor was called to them in High Valyrian and was commanded in High Valyrian.

I’m sure Rhaenyra calms Syrax in Valyrian. Knowing a couple of Valyrian commands might have increased some odds of survival. Just saying.

 

5 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Ok. I disagree. If someone is recruiting me for the job of dragonrider, or any dangerous job, and the only thing they tell me about the job description is "you can get hurt or die in the onboarding process", I think a little more info or guidance would be helpful so that can I reduce my odds of harm. I don't think that's too much to ask.

But Rhaenyra knew enough to use High Valyrian to calm this dragon, and also knew enough about this dragon to know when to leave. Two very useful pieces of knowledge that helped her survive in the presence of this dragon.

I don't know how else to paint the picture that people who are knowledgeable of dragons have better chances of surviving in the presence of dragons like the highborn Targaryens and the dragonkeepers, much better than the bastards who know nothing about dragons. I don't get why just having a little knowledge about a deadly animal that you're about to encounter wouldn't help. I'm not saying they wouldn't have died, but going into a potentially deadly situation informed is better than going into a potentially deadly situation uninformed.

If only knowing there is a risk of death enough to know whether they should try to be dragonriders, why is that not enough for the highborn Targaryens? Why do they continue to take the risk of being around dragons, even unclaimed dragons? Why doesn't knowing there is a risk of death stop them?

Why doesn't the risk of death stop Rhaenyra from coming face-to-face with Vermithor? Why did Rhaenyra feel so confident to call Vermithor when she also faces that a risk of death?

 

5 hours ago, Lady S. said:

I think the problem was that a dragon known as the Bronze Fury, said to be likely the fiercest was probably going to be a meanie no matter what. Ser Steffon speaking Valyrian to Seasmoke didn't save him, while Vermithor was eventually won around by Hugh just screaming "COME ON" in his face. It sure does say something about Rhaenyra's priorities, though, that she chose to start with the biggest, baddest dragon, rather than Silverwing, who appears to have a better temperment.

He appears to have all four limbs, but he also has multiple broken bones. I don't think someone in this condition should be trying to walk again so soon, but Larys isn't doing this to be sadistic. He just needs Aegon ruling again because Aemond doesn't like him.

 

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

But there is no info that will reduce your odds of harm in this case. Saying there are was would be lying. 

 

Seems more like her blood/scent was what protected her, not her knowledge of Valyrian. The dragon just recognized her as a worthy dragon rider. 

The problem is that painting a picture gives the wrong impression. Having more knowledge and some tips seems like it would be helpful. That's logical. Dragon keepers do, of course, learn how to behave around dragons as servants to them. 

But given what we've actually seen about a claiming situation, those tips aren't going to help. Ser Steffon did exactly what Rhaenyra did with Seasmoke, and Seasmoke responded by not only roasting Ser Steffon, but the handlers nearby. Claiming a dragon means presenting yourself for judgement by the dragon and that's it. It's not like bringing it food without angering it.

Note, after all, how Vermithor did not roast Hugh. 

Because the bloodline protects highborn Targaryens. It's their birthright to be accepted by dragons. A birthright carried in their blood, not in secret knowledge. That's why they put a call out for Targ bastards and not just anybody who was feeling lucky. Of course Rhaenyra was careful in approaching Vermithor--just as everyone else was--but she mostly relied on Vermithor recognizing her as a dragon rider. Knowing how to speak to it in High Valyrian was exra.

I agree with sistermagpie. 

This wasn't about modern people applying for a dangerous job. It was about an emergency situation where Rhaenyra faced the possibilty to loose all for herself, her family and (in her thinking) for the realm. And it happened in an alt-world where a human life, and especially a life of smallfolk, was of little value even at best. If there was a possibility that among those 45 persons there were two or even one dragonriders, the risk that others, or in the worst case all, would die, was worth taking for Rhaenyra.

I very much doubt that any precautions or a few words of Valerian could have saved lives. The only thing that Rgaenyra could have given them was a knife to cut their throat in order to save from agony of burning. But what of all had said: if it it's so dangerous, I don't want even to try?

I admit only one thing she should have done: a promise to take care of their families.     

I guess I am so cold-blooded because, although not having experienced myself, I know what kind of situations happened during the WW2. Teenage boys who signed up as volunteers in air defence weren't warned that the task was dangerous, because their effort was urgently needed - they freed adult men to the front. 

[millennium]

6 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Oh, btw, this was our first ep this season without Criston Cole. I'm sure all his many loyal fans must have missed him dearly.

My House of the Dragon co-pilot said, and I quote, "This was the first episode I really liked, because it had no Criston Cole."

10 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Most of these royals pretty consistently dgaf about the smallfolk from Rhaenyra and Laenor allowing Daemon to kill a servant in Laenor's place, to Rhaenys escaping through the dragonpit with considerable collateral damage, to Alicent having Larys burn Mysaria's house down (which the White Worm escaped from, but there were probably other people inside) and torture/kill all her servants who reported to Mysaria, to Aegon indiscriminately hanging all the ratcatchers, to Aemond closing the city gates and replying "so?" when told of his subjects' discontent, but Rhaenyra having her guards stop people from fleeing dragonfire really is a new despicable low.

How else was she to come by that trial-by-fire expression she wore in the final scene?   There are only so many opportunities around the castle to burnish one's reputation as a Targaryen.

 

[paigow]

Aegon rehab...

 

[AntFTW]

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

This wasn't about modern people applying for a dangerous job. It was about an emergency situation where Rhaenyra faced the possibilty to loose all for herself, her family and (in her thinking) for the realm. And it happened in an alt-world where a human life, and especially a life of smallfolk, was of little value even at best. If there was a possibility that among those 45 persons there were two or even one dragonriders, the risk that others, or in the worst case all, would die, was worth taking for Rhaenyra.

I don’t disagree with that in any sense. The risk was worth taking for Rhaenyra. My point is not about the risks for Rhaenyra. I think Rhaenyra had to make a tough call, and some omissions might have been the best decision for her.

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I very much doubt that any precautions or a few words of Valerian could have saved lives.

My point of view is broader than precautions once they’re in the Dragonmont. At any point from the time Rhaenyra sent out the call for bastard Targaryens to the time Vermithor is setting them on fire, they are never given enough information to make a fully informed choice at any point during this process. I’m not just talking about saving a few lives once they’re sitting in front of the dragon. A little more info before even entered the Dragonmont might have given them the chance to more properly understand and maybe reevaluate what they were signing up for. The bastards knowing beforehand that the Rhaenyra’s guards would block the exit might have helped them reelavuate what they’re signing up for. If that was fully understood and they still opted to go into the Dragonmont, maybe a couple of Valyrian words wouldn’t hurt. Their chances of survival is still near-zero but it’s not zero.

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

But what of all had said: if it it's so dangerous, I don't want even to try?

Except I think the smallfolk don't know enough about dragons, other than the lore they hear, to assess the actual amount of danger of what they're signing up for. They know dragons are dangerous. They don't know what process of claiming a dragon actually looks like. As we saw, they aren't told that claiming entails standing right in front of the thing and if it doesn't like you, it'll roast you. They aren't ever a chance to come to the conclusion "oh wait, that's more dangerous than I initially thought... so I don't want to anymore" or "there are four score of us, and it's the dragon that chooses us and it'll only choose one and the rest of us will burn to death, so my odds of making it out of this looks extremely small... so I don't think I want to do this anymore."

Edited August 1 by AntFTW

[scarynikki12]

12 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Like they told Ser Darklyn to "show no fear", no one told the lowborns that.

And even that advice doesn’t guarantee anything either way. Addam, Hugh, and Ulf all initially showed fear when facing the dragons they bonded. This goes back to my earlier point that the dragons, in truth, probably just pick their riders for their own reasons (not Targ or Valyrian propaganda) and the humans are only guessing. Were all three dragons lonely and simply managed to find a human they felt kinship to? Or was it something specific about that individual that we’re meant to think made a riderless dragon decide to bear a new human? We can only guess.

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, scarynikki12 said:

And even that advice doesn’t guarantee anything either way. Addam, Hugh, and Ulf all initially showed fear when facing the dragons they bonded.

But again, my point is not about any specific piece of advice. I'm using those things as examples, but the example is not the point. My point is broader any specific advice that could have been given. It's about the general knowledge of dragons to make the risk assessment and/or judgement calls to try this in the first place.

I'm not saying that their survival is guaranteed even if they were given guidance. I'm not saying that their chance of survival is good or fair even if they were given guidance. My point is not about the specific guidance or advise they could be given once they encounter the dragon.

My primary point is that the lowborns don't know enough about dragons, about bonding with dragons, to assess just how dangerous this is. They don't know enough about what they're signing up for to judge just how dangerous it is and judge how likely they are to survive, and therefore make the determination if it's worth it. They are never given enough information to properly set their expectations.

It's like saying "I need a driver and it's a risky job, and you could die" and that's it. My expectations might be road on the left (below) which still carries the risk of harm or death, but what you really want is someone that's willing to drive the road on the right and you omit a small detail that this is a winding road dangling off the side of a cliff. Then, no one tells me this until my dumbass is in the vehicle and literally can't exit until I reach my destination or die trying. Driving on the left vs right is a different risk calculation. I can decide that I'm willing to take the risk on the left, but not the right. That's a judgement I can make because I am informed. Maybe I'm someone who has no concept of how much more dangerous it is to drive on a cliff, and I can't accurately judge the level of difficultly and risk of death, and I naively think driving the side of this cliff is the same... and then they let me think that, once again, until my dumbass is already in the vehicle and literally can't exit until I reach my destination or die trying.

Edited August 1 by AntFTW

[Affogato]

We spent a lot of time this season establishing how empathetic Rhaenyra is and how her smallest mistakes ( or the larger ones of her followers , like Daemon) have an effect on her future decisions. This is a big occurrence and will have consequences for her and an effect on her future decisions. This may even be the time when she judges she began to lose her soul, valuing expedience over human life. 
 

For the small folk, an unheard of opportunity and a lottery situation. People have made worse gambles for that sort of change of fortune. Most of them probably aren’t literate, to sign a release form. But they have to know it is dangerous. Look at the size of those things. 

[Lady S.]

14 hours ago, bluvelvet said:

Rhaena most likely knows high Valyrian and grew up with dragon knowledge. Clearly comfortable trying to get another even though she was almost eaten. I wish we had seen it, I don’t see Rhaena running fast enough to avoid being eaten. In my head he sniffed her and probably snapped his jaws at her but if he truly wanted to eat her, he would’ve. 

She also likely had better supervision from Rhaenyra and the dragonkeepers. We know Rhaenyra isn't willing to risk the life of her own stepdaughter/cousin as she told Jace in their original convo about more dragonriders in 2.05, nixing his initial suggestion of pairing Rhaena with one of the pre-owned adult dragons because she was already rejected before. (I think anyone could muster some fight-or-flight speed in the face of a testy dragon.)

I'm still annoyed we never got to see Laena claiming Vhagar or just any scene of Helaena interacting with Dreamfyre. 

[paigow]

1 hour ago, AntFTW said:

It's like saying "I need a driver and it's a risky job, and you could die" 

 Problem solved

2 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

And even that advice doesn’t guarantee anything either way. 

Kinda like always cut the Red Wire bomb defusing trope

[Roseanna]

16 hours ago, AntFTW said:

My point is that they didn't have a fully informed choice from the start since they are making a life or death decision. 

Then any sane and sensible person would have said: no thanks.

"A fully informed choice" is a very modern way of thinking. These people had rarely had made any decisions, they have lived in the iron cage of circumstances. To leave KL for Dragonstone was perhaps the only time in their lives when they had had a real chance to choose.

The main characters may have believed that they can choose, but that time has been long behind them - they are now caught in the web. It's not about "choose your side" or "do or die", as after the Targs were divded, there could become no good result.

[AntFTW]

7 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Then any sane and sensible person would have said: no thanks.

Yes, like Rhaenyra did with the suggestion of trying to pair Rhaena with another dragon. That was a fully informed judgement made with knowledge the lowborns wouldn't have.

21 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

"A fully informed choice" is a very modern way of thinking. These people had rarely had made any decisions, they have lived in the iron cage of circumstances. To leave KL for Dragonstone was perhaps the only time in their lives when they had had a real chance to choose.

It is a modern way of thinking, but it's a way of thinking that's given to the highborns... because we need a plot.

[millennium]

9 hours ago, AntFTW said:

so I don't think I want to do this anymore."

"you know how I feel about quitters ..."

-- T.J. Lavin

[goldilocks]

On 7/31/2024 at 4:19 PM, Stardancer Supreme said:

Syrax was next to Rhaenyra. Silverwing, with her new rider Ulf, was on the far tower. The other dragon with them was Vermithor, the Bronze Fury with Hugh as his rider. Fun fact: Syrax and SeaSmoke was hatched by eggs from Silverwing!

Thanks. It did look like Syrax beside her but why was there someone on its back? I thought only the person who claimed the dragon could mount it. It was what confused me. It would have made sense if it were Silverwing, with Vermithor behind, but it didn’t look like Silverwing to me. 😵‍💫

Edited August 2 by goldilocks

[goldilocks]

On 7/30/2024 at 3:39 PM, proserpina65 said:

and spikes around his head

The mohawk someone else mentioned. 😆 Thanks for the info. I think the problem is that a lot of the time they’re in dark surroundings so all we see is a shadowy mass. The show is filmed very dark in general. I have my brightness way up so I can see, then I’m blinded when they occasionally go outside in the daytime!

[Roccos Brother]

I might be in the minority, but I'm beginning to feel for Alicent. I really thought based on the previews that she was going to pull a Virginia Woolf this episode.

Usually not a big fan of these Hollywood Blockbuster show-offy spectacles, but this was very satisfying after seeing the Blacks play underdog all season.

Edited August 2 by Roccos Brother

[Roseanna]

9 hours ago, AntFTW said:

It is a modern way of thinking, but it's a way of thinking that's given to the highborns... because we need a plot.

The highborn *believe* that they have can make choices, like that's a hallucination. Because of charcater and sense of entailment Rhaenyra thought she could live as she pleased *and* retain her position without doing anything to ensure it. Now she has to face the consequences of her actions an its results to others. Used to her right to succession, she just couldn't give it up, which meant war and in order to win the war she must do whatever it takes to win. But the victory, if she ever get it, can cost too much.     

1 hour ago, Roccos Brother said:

I might be in the minority, but I'm beginning to feel for Alicent. I really thought based on the previews that she was going to pull a Virginia Woolf this episode.

I have always wondered why Alicent is judged so harsly here, without any understanding in what conditions to women lived, or men for that matter. People weren't individuals but parts of the family. You served your family's interests (men in war and women given birth to children) because the family was your only support. Without your family you were nothing.  

Now, being no use to her family and without any power means that Alicent is finally free of illusions and responsibilities. Instead, Rhaenyra who believed to be free, is caught in the power struggle and still under many illusions.

 

[millennium]

2 hours ago, Roccos Brother said:

I might be in the minority, but I'm beginning to feel for Alicent. I really thought based on the previews that she was going to pull a Virginia Woolf this episode.

I thought Ophelia when she went into the water, but yeah.

9 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Now, being no use to her family and without any power means that Alicent is finally free of illusions and responsibilities. Instead, Rhaenyra who believed to be free, is caught in the power struggle and still under many illusions.

I also had the silly idea that she might defect to Dragonstone and try to make peace with Rhaenyra and work together to bring the war to an end.

[ferjy]

On 7/30/2024 at 12:58 PM, proserpina65 said:

Really?  They're all very different looking. 

I meant more that I can’t tell which they are. When they are flying it’s easier because you can match them to their rider. I’m also not very good with names. I’m great with facial features, but it doesn’t seem to apply to dragon faces. 😄

 

[ferjy]

On 7/31/2024 at 9:54 PM, paigow said:

It would have been hilarious to show these bastards in a Valyrian classroom scene... then the dragons completely confused by incomprehensible commands that soon gives way to rage-flaming 

🤣 Some clever Youtuber needs to make this video. 

 

[baldryanr]

4 hours ago, millennium said:

I also had the silly idea that she might defect to Dragonstone and try to make peace with Rhaenyra and work together to bring the war to an end.

Unless she plans to murder all three of her sons there is nothing she can do to end the war.  Even if she were to offer herself up as a hostage that wouldn't bring them to the negotiating table - see Robb not backing down when Sansa (and Arya, as far as he knew) were captives.

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, baldryanr said:

Unless she plans to murder all three of her sons there is nothing she can do to end the war.  Even if she were to offer herself up as a hostage that wouldn't bring them to the negotiating table - see Robb not backing down when Sansa (and Arya, as far as he knew) were captives.

Yes, she is hardly part of the plan at this point. 

[Mrsmaul2021]

I hate the idea of Alicent throwing her sons under the bus to end the war. 

[sistermagpie]

On 7/31/2024 at 9:54 PM, paigow said:

It would have been hilarious to show these bastards in a Valyrian classroom scene... then the dragons completely confused by incomprehensible commands that soon gives way to rage-flaming 

Suddenly made me remember that I Love Lucy when she tries to learn Spanish to meet Ricky's relatives. 'You just called him a big fat pig!"

[Roseanna]

Thinking anew about Jace vs. bastards. 

It's not likely that Hugh or Ulf could be accepted as a serious claimant to the throne, they are too ordinary that their old comrades would laugh at the idea that they should look at them upwards, even if they have have become dragonriders. (On the other hand, Daemon and Rhaenyra once looked how the they both were  mocked in the play, but I suppose it was only smallfolk having a little fun.) 

Yet, under Jace's worry is a more serious question: on what is succession based? If there is no rule that all accept (however unequal and unjust that rule may seem to us), the matter can only be solved by violence. And when violence starts, it will escalate and there will be no "good" or "bad side. 

Which makes me think about Rhaenys. She lost succession to Viserys, but she accepted it. Why? Because she wasn't (over)ambitious like her husband? Because she had not enough supporters? Because she saw that the price would be too high? Because one must leave the past behind and live in the present?

That the lords could elect Rhaenys or Viserys, shows there was no rule of succession if the king had no son alive. If I have understood right, Rhaenys was a descendant of the older son and Viserys was a descendant of the younger son, but she was rejected because of her gender. After that it's strange that Viserys thought that he could simply choose his daughter as his heir over his brother and later persist in his choice after having sons and the lords would keep their oaths after his death?

[baldryanr]

3 hours ago, Roseanna said:

That the lords could elect Rhaenys or Viserys, shows there was no rule of succession if the king had no son alive. If I have understood right, Rhaenys was a descendant of the older son and Viserys was a descendant of the younger son, but she was rejected because of her gender. After that it's strange that Viserys thought that he could simply choose his daughter as his heir over his brother and later persist in his choice after having sons and the lords would keep their oaths after his death?

Viserys isn't the first to have such faith in oaths.  Ned thought Robert's last orders would work too, and we all saw how that turned out.   Of course, he really shouldn't have rehired Otto - while she bitched and moaned about it, I don't think Alicent would have lined everything up for the coup.  It really is a shame Rhaenyra peaced out to Dragonstone right before that happened - if she had been around, she likely would have been able to convince Viserys to pick someone else (Corlys?) who would have been in her camp, or at least neutral. 

[Affogato]

Rhaenerya spend episodes struggling with the decision to get riders. 
 

if she had known Addam of Hull was her first husband’s half brother she might have reached a different decision. 
 

i don’t think quidditch is possible either. How to they not fall off? 

Edited August 3 by Affogato

[paigow]

Why did Ulf not have to dodge any Scorpion shots??? 

[Affogato]

The scene when Alicent walks into the water is pretty clearly a tribute to the movie “ Sansho the Bailiff”.  It can’t be anything else.  It is truly a beautiful movie. 
 

Spoiler

In Sansho the Bailff the woman is walking into the water to kill herself so her brother, who is escaping from being enslaved, can get away. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sansho_the_Bailiff

[paigow]

Daemon needs to find the next House Tully heir and roast Oscar if Team Black wins

[proserpina65]

On 7/31/2024 at 6:37 PM, Lady S. said:

says the idea behind Rhaenyra's speech (which was Emma D'Arcy's idea) was a cult leader hyping up dragonpower after her cult-like dragonkeepers refused to take part.

She does seem very much like a cult leader.  And she definitely downplayed the chance of fiery terrible death in her speech.

 

 

 

[proserpina65]

On 8/1/2024 at 4:09 AM, Roseanna said:

the risk that others, or in the worst case all, would die, was worth taking for Rhaenyra.

For Rhaenyra.  Most likely not worth it for the Targ bastards if they'd been told what actually would happen and that they wouldn't be allowed to escape if the dragon decided to do exactly what Vermithor did.  But if she'd told them, they might've refused to take part and she didn't want that to happen.

[Affogato]

25 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

For Rhaenyra.  Most likely not worth it for the Targ bastards if they'd been told what actually would happen and that they wouldn't be allowed to escape if the dragon decided to do exactly what Vermithor did.  But if she'd told them, they might've refused to take part and she didn't want that to happen.

Rhaenyra was not going to do it until Addam convinced her that random bastards could be successful ( by keeping his parentage secret).  This season shows us Rhaenyra would not pursue the claim if she did not believe she was the chosen heir and then that she is being dragged into increasingly awful choices. That explains her visit to Alicient and how we know she will have to use the intelligence Alicient has recently given her. 

[proserpina65]

21 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Rhaenyra was not going to do it until Addam convinced her that random bastards could be successful ( by keeping his parentage secret).  This season shows us Rhaenyra would not pursue the claim if she did not believe she was the chosen heir and then that she is being dragged into increasingly awful choices. That explains her visit to Alicient and how we know she will have to use the intelligence Alicient has recently given her. 

I have been exceedingly unconvinced by the writers' attempts at making Rhaenyra more noble and virtuous.

[Affogato]

50 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

I have been exceedingly unconvinced by the writers' attempts at making Rhaenyra more noble and virtuous.

Yeah well. She is being presented as empathetic and gradually in over her head. emond is looking more capable but he has had a functioning group of professionals for part of the journey. 
 

if it helps think she will present as worse next season. Also I think Aemond will have more positive moments. 

Edited August 5 by Affogato

[proserpina65]

42 minutes ago, Affogato said:

if it helps think she will present as worse next season. Also I think Aemond will have more positive moments. 

Somehow I doubt Aemond will have more positive moments from now on.  We seem to be heading into serious war-criming with him.

[Affogato]

4 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Somehow I doubt Aemond will have more positive moments from now on.  We seem to be heading into serious war-criming with him.

Oh yeah, but men wear them better. 

[proserpina65]

29 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Oh yeah, but men wear them better. 

I could make a comment about him wearing me, but . . . 😁