Brats

[DanaK]

ABC News Studios, in partnership with NEON and Network Entertainment, announced today "BRATS," a new feature-length documentary from director Andrew McCarthy, will premiere Thursday, June 13, on Hulu in the U.S. and later this summer on Disney+ in select territories, following its world premiere at the 2024 Tribeca Festival. Announced earlier this year, "BRATS" looks at the iconic films of the 1980s that shaped a generation and the narrative that took hold when their young stars were branded the "Brat Pack." McCarthy reunites with his fellow Brat Packers - friends, colleagues and former foes, including Rob Lowe, Demi Moore, Ally Sheedy, Emilio Estevez, Jon Cryer, Lea Thompson and Timothy Hutton, many of whom he had not seen for over 30 years - to answer the question: What did it mean to be part of the Brat Pack? McCarthy also sits down for a first-time conversation with writer David Blum, who fatefully coined the term Brat Pack in a 1985 New York Magazine cover story.

Full press release http://thefutoncritic.com/news/2024/05/14/abc-news-studios-in-partnership-with-neon-announces-brats-from-director-andrew-mccarthy-to-premiere-on-hulu-thursday-june-13-505411/20240514abc01/

 

[DanaK]

 

[AheadofStraight]

I am sooo excited for this! 

[chitowngirl]

Me too! I like that Andrew McCarthy is doing this and not some rando interviewer.

Edited June 4 by chitowngirl

[Bastet]

28 minutes ago, chitowngirl said:

I like that Andrew McCarthy is doing this and not some rando interviewer.

That's either going to sink it or make it great, and I strongly suspect it's the latter.

I don't even like most Brat Pack movies, yet I will be all over this documentary.

[AheadofStraight]

His book, Brat, about all this was enjoyable so I suspect it will be as well. He was pretty clear that he hated the whole BP thing so I'm interested to see him talking to the author of that article that coined the name. 

[AheadofStraight]

Andrew McCarthy on GMA

[Sweet-tea]

I just finished it. I am about the same age as Andrew McCarthy and I remember seeing most of these movies in the theater. It was a trip down nostalgia lane watching this documentary.

What struck me about it the most was it played like an extended therapy session for Andrew. I didn't realize he was so affected by the label. Also the difference is the Rat Pack members were called that due to hanging out together as friends, and it was seen as a positive "cool" label. Whereas the Brat Pack actors had really nothing to do with each other outside of working on the same films. They all viewed the label as negative. I was surprised when Andrew said he hadn't seen any of them in 30 years or longer. 

I wish Judd and Molly had participated. I liked the ending fist bump of Judd with the music. So dead on! 

I remember seeing Rob Lowe in Class, St. Elmo's Fire and other movies and thinking he was gorgeous. Cocky but gorgeous. 

Edited June 17 by Sweet-tea

[Shannon L.]

I watched it this afternoon.  

I agree with you @Sweet-tea that it was like watching a therapy session.  But, I liked it.  It was nice to see that at least a couple of them could explain to him how it was a blessing in disguise.  Yet, I can also understand being that age and being immediately turned off by the word "brat".

I also wish Molly and Judd had participated.  I'd like to think that it would have helped them heal a little bit, too. Maybe one day, when they're each alone, they'll put it on and rethink their feelings on the situation.  

I was a teenager when those movies came out and loved most of them.  I'm actually surprised, though, that they included John Cryer and not Anthony Michael Hall.  I'm have listed him as part of the brat pack before John.

Boy, does Emilio look like his dad!  He even has some of the mannerisms. 

The fist bump was great way to end it and the lyrics to "Don't You Forget About Me" at the end of the show had even more significance.  It was a great section of the song to end it with.  

[Sweet-tea]

Anthony Michael Hall! I knew I was forgetting someone. I wish they had talked to him too. 

In Andrew's scenes with Demi and Rob, I noticed how Andrew seems to have aged naturally while the other two have had work done. I think Andrew looks good despite not showing obvious signs of cosmetic work. I also think Emilio and Ally have aged well. 

I remember relating so much to Molly Ringwald in Pretty in Pink, as I never felt like I fit in during high school. But I admired her character because I wasn't brave enough to be quirky and do my own thing, and she ended up with the cool guy whereas I never even got asked to the prom. James Spader was perfect in that film as the arrogant, nasty popular guy. 

Also remember the chemistry between Molly and Judd Nelson in The Breakfast Club. I know a lot of people detest him, but he tapped into that dangerous, sexy, bad boy "I see you vibe" with Molly. They lit up the screen. 

Watching this documentary makes me want to go watch one of these movies again, even though I've seen them countless times. 

LOVED the song at the end. When they talked of the music, I thought how can they not play Don't You Forget About Me? It was iconic and so was the balcony scene. 

I want to look up the original Brat Pack article. I don't think I've ever read it. 

 

Edited June 13 by Sweet-tea

[Bastet]

2 hours ago, Sweet-tea said:

I want to look up the original Brat Pack article. I don't think I've ever read it.

It's available here, free for a limited time.  I wish they'd shown more quotes from it, especially the stuff they took issue with as being mean; if you're going to delve into spending 30 years of your life resenting an article, I'd like to know what, specifically, in that article upset you so -- because that you're not brats and you're not actually a pack is a big Okay, and? for me.  (Also, not for nothing, McCarthy is mentioned precisely once in the article.  But it sent him into a tailspin the day it came out?)

I think the article is less important than the documentary makes it, but I also think it's more important than the author regards it; I wondered if he would feel any different after seeing this documentary and hearing their feelings about it all, and, nope, he doesn't.

The documentary was interesting, even though I don't like most of the "Brat Pack" movies; how perspective had and had not changed all these years later was worthy of exploration, and I think they needed to wait this long to do it.  I found everyone honest, but some of them also absolutely clueless in their privilege. 

I agree with the NPR review that said it's not a coincidence that "the most successful Brat Packers McCarthy could get on camera — Moore and Lowe — long ago made their peace with a term that has evolved into a more endearing label, softened by nostalgia and filled with respect".  I particularly agree with Lowe (not something I often do) that if you're part of something that is still talked about 30 years later, and will probably be with you until you die, that's incredible.

I thought the segment on who's in the Brat Pack was funny, because people not even named in the piece are considered part of the pack (notably, the women; the article was very focused on these guys' antics as guys) and people named in the article (e.g. Tom Cruise and Sean Penn) aren't.  And that's because I think most people have forgotten all about what was said in the article, or even the general notion they were dismissed as non-serious actors looking for their next hit of fame; we just know the name "Brat Pack" and the movies that starred an ensemble made up largely of members of the pack.  I don't think their public reputations were affected anywhere close to the degree some of them had so much angst about. 

Did one writer's description of them affect how the industry regarded them?  Sure, but how much?  I mean, was Scorcese going to come calling had that piece never been published?  I'm thinking no.  I'm not saying this was all self-indulgent whining, their feelings are their feelings and I was happy to listen to them.  But I really think Estevez and McCarthy need to Let. It. Go.  Hopefully this film being an extended therapy session for the latter will bring that about for him.

Edited June 14 by Bastet

[Bastet]

Also, I enjoyed Andrew and Rob talking about the night they followed Liza Minelli to Sammy Davis Jr.'s house to keep partying.  "That happened, right?"

[DoctorAtomic]

We were talking about this earlier in the morning today. I was just a little too young, but I eventually saw all the movies. It's like I lived through it, but wasn't a part of it. I was saying this morning that the John Hughes movies I really didn't care for, though I always thought they were very good actors. They still are. I can 'get' the movies later on from living through the times, but just no primary source material, so to speak. My high school experience was also ridiculously normal, so I just didn't think the movie high schools were the norm. 

I do remember the term 'Brat Pack' in the news. I didn't realize it included more of the actors than I originally thought because when you think '80s' you think the John Hughes movies. No Downey though? I didn't think you'd throw Risky Business and the like in there. When you expand that beyond John Hughes, there are a lot of movies I did like. 

Like the prevailing opinion here, I didn't realize they resented the term. I can totally see why. The deconstruction I think is important and interesting. I didn't know there was the big feature on Emilio (no one called him a nepo baby). It's kind of a commentary on Hollywood; here's a remarkable group of young actors that people want to see, let's milk them as much as we possibly can. Can you imagine now, with social media? 

I did like that it seemed like no one had any animosity to one another. McCarthy wasn't saying the Emilio feature was deliberate or anything. 

I thought it was interesting that Gladwell posited there were no cultural touchstones anymore. (Also Team Ducky is a fallacy. That doesn't exist.) I'm not sure I entirely agree that there's no touchstones anymore though. I also find him trite.

The producer from St Elmo's Fire had a good point that they could have turned it on its head and made it work for them. Too bad none of the managers, agents, etc., were more forward thinking. 

Rob Lowe and Demi Moore seemed to have a positive perspective on their influence. 

I thought having the guy who wrote the Emilio was great, and I actually liked that he wasn't apologetic about it. McCarthy wasn't so pleased. 

Although, in the end, these were all really good, successful actors. 

1 hour ago, Bastet said:

(Also, not for nothing, McCarthy is mentioned precisely once in the article.  But it sent him into a tailspin the day it came out?)

I do think the point there, is that they were all incessantly asked about it constantly in any media appearance at the time rather than being able to just talk about the movie. You're not pulling that on Clooney or Pitt. To be fair, 'brat pack' is kind of hacky. I don't think the author of the article was saying they were entitled or anything, but it's not the best choice. McCarthy did say at 40, they would have all been 'whatever'. 

1 hour ago, Bastet said:

I particularly agree with Lowe (not something I often do) that if you're part of something that is still talked about 30 years later, and will probably be with you until you die, that's incredible.

Say want you want about the movies, and we don't seem to like them too much, but 1 - Moore's comment that 'old Hollywood ended' rings true and 1980 was a total paradigm shift, and 2 - Lowe pointing out that just about all popular media has been a derivative of the Brat Pack, he specifically said The Entire CW, ain't wrong. 

I also would think that their representation wasn't ready for such a paradigm shift in the industry and wasn't able to provide 22 y/o actors the cover that they might have needed. 

They stuck the landing on the end though. 

[Bastet]

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I do think the point there, is that they were all incessantly asked about it constantly in any media appearance at the time rather than being able to just talk about the movie.

But he remembers back to the moment the article was published and was supremely bothered then -- when he was in one sentence (via an unflattering quote from an anonymous Pack member), not listed as a Packer or even an almost-Packer -- not later growing resentful given how the term caught on and applied to actors beyond those identified in the article, requiring the lot of them to address it at every publicity turn. 

He seemed to react both first and most strongly, which is odd.  Emilio still feeling so deeply all this time later I get, because he's the one who took the reporter out with him for days and nights, not understanding what could - likely would - happen, resulting in this article about him that took on a life of its own, but Andrew really comes off as a bit of a nut when you read the article in which he's just briefly mentioned and think about the fact he's still so hung up on what the resulting perception did to his career (actually, or within his own mind).  I did like him acknowledging his wife told him reaching out to the Pack to help him develop this project might result in a nice humility check for him and indeed it did, which he's not enjoying.

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

They stuck the landing on the end though.

<ring>
"Judd?"
Bender's fist pump.

Yeah, that was great. 

[EtheltoTillie]

I started watching, and I’m finding it interesting. I’d also reread the original article earlier in the week.  There were many comments marveling at what a takedown it was. My perspective is a little different.  I worked in magazines at the time, and it was an essential part of the job to be able to coin punny titles and catch phrases like Brat Pack. Not coined by the writers usually but by staff editors. We don’t know who came up with it.  My perspective back then and now was extreme admiration.  The title Brat Pack is one of the cleverest titles ever coined in the magazine business, maybe the best. Retire the trophy. The perfect confluence of means and opportunity. Sorry if the article subjects have been miffed at being caught in it. It became a title in search of an article, so the story on Emilio turned into something else. 

Edited June 14 by EtheltoTillie

[EtheltoTillie]

Amazon Prime just “suggested” St Elmo, so I am watching it. I never watched it back then. 

[Bastet]

2 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

The title Brat Pack is one of the cleverest titles ever coined in the magazine business, maybe the best. Retire the trophy.

I like how it came about, one of the unusual times where an article's writer came up with its headline -- a group of friends calling themselves the Fat Pack after a huge dinner, and that play on the Rat Pack making him think of his nascent article, which had already become about far more than a profile of Estevez, as a vehicle to maybe coin a term.  I appreciate exploring the repercussions, but let us not deny that was some great wordplay.

[juliet73]

I’m only halfway through and I can understand the actors being frustrated about being part of the Brat Pack.  IMO, it wasn’t so much the article that affected them, it was every interview afterwards constantly harping on it.  Also, I think Andrew McCarthy’s career kind of stalled whereas other actors, like Tom Cruise, blew up! I guess it’s easier for AM to blame a magazine article for him not getting work instead of admitting he’s not that great of an actor. 
Demi Moore has had so much work done! Also, that casting director looked like a freak with those huge lips! 

[EtheltoTillie]

I finally got to the point in the doc where he meets the journalist. When the journalist said with regret that he thought he was going to be ushered into Tina Brown’s office I had a shock of recognition.  That’s such a touchstone of the magazine biz of that time.  I still subscribe to New York and The New Yorker. Both manage to remain compelling. The women’s magazines I worked for are all gone. Vanity Fair lost its touch when Graydon Carter left. 

Edited June 14 by EtheltoTillie

[EtheltoTillie]

Finished watching St. Elmo. What a soap opera!  Yet I walked away amazed at all the acting talent. Hilarious stunt casting of former spouses Martin Balsam and Joyce Van Patten as Mare Winningham’s parents. 

Edited June 14 by EtheltoTillie

[sskrill]

I was kind of underwhelmed by this.  I was a bit younger than them so these were definitely the movies we rushed to see in my teens.

I agree that this seemed like a therapy session for him.  It seemed like most of them met with him reluctantly, and Molly and Judd wanted nothing to do with it.  Molly was on the Marc Maron podcast the other day - it was a good interview - I know she can be unfriendly and guarded sometimes but she was really open and easy going.  

Emilio seems to have moved past it but met with him out of courtesy. Rob seems to have a really nice spirit - I think he really just moved on and enjoys his life with his family.

I don't know, I just thought this was going to be .. something else? Not quite such a whine session.

Edited June 15 by sskrill

[DoctorAtomic]

12 hours ago, juliet73 said:

I guess it’s easier for AM to blame a magazine article for him not getting work instead of admitting he’s not that great of an actor. 

I don't think it's that. He was never going to be a Tom Cruise, but he was as good an actor as anyone in that time. I think part of the problem is they felt they had to turn down projects that others were in as Emilio was explaining. So maybe more sour due to missed opportunities. He's had credits in every year literally since he started except for covid. You tell any actor they'll have steady work for 4 decades, and they'll take it in a heartbeat. Plus, several of his films still have traction today. 

 

[Sweet-tea]

Quote

But I really think Estevez and McCarthy need to Let. It. Go.  Hopefully this film being an extended therapy session for the latter will bring that about for him.

Especially McCarthy. I saw a quote from an interview he gave recently. He said he thinks differently and more positively about it all now. I'm not sure I believe him though. He was so tortured during this. 

Demi Moore said she wished there had been a session with all of them meeting as a group. I agree. I think it would come across less about McCarthy's angst if all of them were talking as a group. He could have done the one on ones but also included a group scene. I didn't think the Tim Hutton interview added much. It could've been removed. 

I actually loved the movies, but I was the same age as these actors. I could relate to all of them but especially Pretty in Pink and The Breakfast Club. Another good one with Molly Ringwald was Sixteen Candles. I'm not sure my affection for them would stand up if I watched them now, but in the 80s I was a fan. 

I read long ago that Emilio used the family's original last name because he didn't want to capitalize on being Martin Sheen's son. Emilio was really popular for a while and briefly engaged to Demi Moore. I recall some drama around their break-up.  

Their reaction to the article reminds me of rock bands that get ticked off at the Rolling Stone writer that's doing a feature on them, which was fictionalized beautifully in Almost Famous. Everyone should remember the journalist isn't your buddy. The writer is there to get a good story. I wish quotes from the article had been included in this documentary. 

Edited June 15 by Sweet-tea

[Sweet-tea]

I just read the article. Interesting that McCarthy wasn't featured on the cover of even named into almost the end and only once. I didn't realize Blum included Tom Cruise, Sean Penn, Matt Dillon and several others as "Brats" too. Tom was probably the most successful in breaking away and becoming a huge start in this own right, and Sean became a respected actor. 

The article was kind of sneering and mocking of them but not as horrible as I expected given Andrew McCarthy's comments. It's weird how he took it so personally when he was barely mentioned. Interesting that only the male actors are the focus, not females like Molly Ringwald and Ally Sheedy. 

This part of the article stood out to me (not posting the whole section):

The Hottest of Them All—Tom Cruise, 23. He first made his mark in Taps, then went on to star in the youth-movie classic Risky Business. The huge success of that movie (it made $30.3 million) gave Cruise the leverage to get over $1 million per movie.

The Most Beautiful Face—Rob Lowe, 21. He first showed it to moviegoers in The Outsiders, then starred in Class and The Hotel New Hampshire. He stars in St. Elmo’s Fire.

The Overrated One—Judd Nelson, 25. He made his reputation as a hood in Making the Grade and The Breakfast Club. And now, in St. Elmo’s Fire, he shows—with his role as a congressional assistant—that he was better off when typecast.

That comment about Judd. Yikes. 

I didn't realize the ending to Pretty in Pink was changed due to the test audience's negative reaction. I'm glad they changed it. But Andrew was right. That was a bad wig! 

Edited June 15 by Sweet-tea

[kathe5133]

I couldn't get into this.  It appeared to be about mostly middle aged men complaining about the extreme good fortune they experienced in their youth.  Yeah, no one wants to be called a "brat", but you were paid extremely well.  Just, shut up.

[Sweet-tea]

Maybe that's why Molly Ringwald and Judd Nelson didn't want to be involved. They've moved past it. The article only references the male actors anyway. None of the women were even named. It's more about a group of males using their newfound fame to party and pick up women. 

[Cementhead]

15 hours ago, kathe5133 said:

I couldn't get into this.  It appeared to be about mostly middle aged men complaining about the extreme good fortune they experienced in their youth.  Yeah, no one wants to be called a "brat", but you were paid extremely well.  Just, shut up.

One of the critic reviews I read on Rotten Tomatoes summed it up as good as you --

"... It would have behooved the director, amid his own seemingly self-obsessed rant about a nearly 40-year-old moniker, to also think about the advantages he was also granted with it that eluded many others."

Credit: Candice Frederick/Huffington Post.

[Shrek]

I was on the fence about watching this but everything written here has convinced me to give it a miss as it just sounds like someone having a whine about being called a brat when they were younger, sticks & stones etc. Thanks 

[DoctorAtomic]

If you are a contemporary or the times; like I said, I was a little younger, but I was there, I would recommend watching it. 

[Makai]

On 6/13/2024 at 6:09 PM, Bastet said:

Also, not for nothing, McCarthy is mentioned precisely once in the article.  But it sent him into a tailspin the day it came out?

That seemed like a stretch to me at first until I looked up the timeline. The article came out as part of the press for St. Elmo’s Fire. It would have immediately been in their faces and AM would have been lumped in with the group even if he was barely mentioned in the article.

I was too young to be aware of it at the time but I found the old press clips from the time the most interesting. I find it mind boggling that it got that much attention. Otherwise, I don’t think that this documentary style worked all that well with the subject. 

[Eureka]

On 6/16/2024 at 10:11 AM, Shrek said:

I was on the fence about watching this but everything written here has convinced me to give it a miss as it just sounds like someone having a whine about being called a brat when they were younger, sticks & stones etc. Thanks 

I agree with what a lot of others have said about him not being able to get over it. (And he was one of my favorites back then, so I was disappointed in his “whiny” qualities in this). But, having come of age with all those movies, I did enjoy seeing the archival footage and clips. (Including McKeldin Mall from UMd that stood in for Georgetown. At the time I had no clue about that, but now that I’m a Terp mom, it’s pretty cool. 🐢)

[DoctorAtomic]

As I am musing, McCarthy was in Less Than Zero. You can say all you want about the John Hughes movies, and I'm not taking anything away from them. However, Less Than Zero is a definitive 80s movie if not *the*. I'm surprised he didn't mention it. The movie came out in 1987, so I suppose his deal was with early 80s. Still though. 

[merylinkid]

This definitely could have benefited from Andrew McCarthy spending less time working out his angst and more time actually talking to his interviewees about the effect the name had on the person he was talking to.

Emilio Estevez got me when asked why he agreed to do the documentary when he turned down so many other opportunities to talk about his movies "Because you called."   Him, Andrew McCarthy, not Joe Schmo writing another nostalgia piece on the 80s.   Ally Sheedy said it best "the caring" that came out of it.   They might not have been "friends" but they developed a bond.   And Rob and Andrew will always have the night they went to Sammy Davis Jr's house.  

It was a stupid name.   Rob Lowe said it "They needed a name to call the group."   Should some more thought have gone into it?   Yes.   Not only was it juvenile but it was unoriginal -- oh look the 8000th variant of the Rat Pack, how neat.   

But yeah, the 80s were a special time.   Those movies were what it was like to be a kid (white mostly suburban, middle class) then.   The wanting to be part of a group, the wanting to fit in.   St. Elmo's Fire, the ending was really the ending of that era, everyone going their own way, busy with their own lives.  Less than Zero was what happened when some grew up, and some didn't.