S02.E01: You Don't Even Like Opera

[Linderhill]

On 11/13/2023 at 2:50 PM, taanja said:

This show takes place in the 1880's/ Correct?

Anyway my point - he married while in office to his Ward -- yes his legal ward -- who was 28 years younger! He was 49 and she was 21.

Theses characters supposedly live in NY -- this was not only common knowledge -- no one thought it was weird or wrong or bad. the public encouraged the marriage!

So Oscar being in his 40's and Gladys being only 18 or so would not be considered out of the norm.

 

This. Just because we find an older man marrying a teenager icky these days does not mean it wasn't a common occurance in the 1800's.  Up until fairly recently such pairings were very commonplace.  This is a historical drama, I have no problem believing that an older bachelor would want to court a young ingenue.   In previous centuries it was commonplace for pre-pubescent girls married off to much older husbands, whether we find it icky nowadays or not. 

On that note, even though I get annoyed with older actors playing young (pretty much most of the high school TV shows with teenagers played by 20+ year olds) and the old Hollywood trope that any woman actor over 35 has to be a mother and super skinny and have no signs of aging but a male actor can age naturally.  

[GATenn]

On 11/13/2023 at 2:50 PM, taanja said:

This show takes place in the 1880's/ Correct?

Well Grover Cleveland was President in 1885 - 1889 (his first stint) he was elected twice -- he served two terms as President (non consecutively) He also served as Governor of NY and mayor of Buffalo among other elected jobs)

Anyway my point - he married while in office to his Ward -- yes his legal ward -- who was 28 years younger! He was 49 and she was 21.

Theses characters supposedly live in NY -- this was not only common knowledge -- no one thought it was weird or wrong or bad. the public encouraged the marriage!

So Oscar being in his 40's and Gladys being only 18 or so would not be considered out of the norm.

 

Her father was his best friend, and he bought her first baby carriage when she was born. 
 

When asked why he was unmarried, he answered that he was waiting for his future wife to grow up.

[taanja]

13 hours ago, GATenn said:

Her father was his best friend, and he bought her first baby carriage when she was born. 
 

When asked why he was unmarried, he answered that he was waiting for his future wife to grow up.

At the time of this show I believe he is Governor of NY? he was well-known.

[HappyHanna]

Small nitpick, or maybe just random moment that totally seemed pointless to me.  The Russell lady's maid Adelheid, I guess she was in season 1, though I don't remember her at all. She may have a German name but she doesn't sound German, so what was the point of the conversation about how she and Mrs Bauer would have been on opposite sides in the Austro-Prussian wars? It was to establish that she was born in Berlin, but she must have immigrated as a baby bc she sounds very generic American.  The Mrs Bauer actress is also U.S. born,  but she puts on an accent for the role. 

[StatisticalOutlier]

On 10/29/2023 at 11:39 PM, Sailorgirl26 said:

Every week there seems to be one standout outfit--usually Bertha's--this week it was the blue and white "nautical" dress she was wearing in Newport when walking with Nathan Lane to go inspect her summer cottage.

So...Sailorgirl26 declares the nautical dress to be the standout outfit in the episode.  Surprise, surprise.  😀

(I also thought it was the standout, but I always gravitate to navy and white and pleats based on the uniform I wore in Catholic school.)

[RedHawk]

On 11/5/2023 at 2:00 PM, brisbydog said:

His mother mentioned getting pregnant 40 years ago in season 1

And Oscar looked every day of 40 when he tried to talk to Gladys outside the church. Although yes, 18 and 40 was not an age disparity that society would have blinked at in that era, something about the actor (and how he's made up) makes him look so skeevy. 

On 11/16/2023 at 1:05 PM, Roseanna said:

Wouldn't 2nd and 3rd sons who have less money (or was it so in the US?) want to marry a heiress? Instead, a widower whose first wife was rich would probably be the best option.

I would prefer a man with a middle class profession, a doctor or a layer (they all aren't like Raikes) who can support a family but Agnes doesn't approve.

American society was not like English society. Wealthy sons, even first sons, often went into banking or the law. They were considered genteel professions. See for example Newland Archer in Edith Wharton's "The Age of Innocence". 

Agnes didn't disapprove of Raikes because he was a lawyer but because he had no money and no "breeding". He didn't come from a fine family and she suspected his goal was to use marriage to Marian to get himself a position in society.

[Roseanna]

On 1/12/2024 at 5:25 AM, RedHawk said:

Agnes didn't disapprove of Raikes because he was a lawyer but because he had no money and no "breeding". He didn't come from a fine family and she suspected his goal was to use marriage to Marian to get himself a position in society.

In short, Agnes is a prejudiced snob. She doesn't evaluate people as individuals on the basis of their character and work, but on the basis of outer qualities of birth they can't influenced on.

[norcalgal]

9 hours ago, Roseanna said:

In short, Agnes is a prejudiced snob. She doesn't evaluate people as individuals on the basis of their character and work, but on the basis of outer qualities of birth they can't influenced on.

Agnes is quite the contradiction, isn’t she?  Her attitude towards Raikes and Peggy couldn’t be more different! Or, maybe she’s less snobby towards black people because she knows no matter how much wealth they have, or how high up the social ladder they climb, they can still never reach the same social pinnacle as white people.  Almost a Northern version of the South’s:  no matter how poor a white person is, they will still already occupy a space in the social hierarchy no (ostensibly) black person could ever attain. 

[RachelKM]

14 hours ago, Roseanna said:

In short, Agnes is a prejudiced snob. She doesn't evaluate people as individuals on the basis of their character and work, but on the basis of outer qualities of birth they can't influenced on.

A snob, yes.  Particularly as to pedigree. However, her stance regarding Raikes' lack of money was not without reason. Marriage was one of the limited ways women could gain security. Marrying a poor lawyer whose livelihood may never achieve financial stability and could even be lost would be a huge risk. 

Even his lack of standing in society posed an independent risk. He didn't have the connections necessary to advance to a more lucrative practice or any relationships to aid him if he had difficulties.

I'm not advocating for the position she took. I just don't agree that it was baseless, shallow snobbery.  There were actual consequences to accepting him as a suitor, particularly for Marian who had no wealth of her own. 

[AntFTW]

5 hours ago, norcalgal said:

Agnes is quite the contradiction, isn’t she?  Her attitude towards Raikes and Peggy couldn’t be more different! Or, maybe she’s less snobby towards black people because she knows no matter how much wealth they have, or how high up the social ladder they climb, they can still never reach the same social pinnacle as white people.  Almost a Northern version of the South’s:  no matter how poor a white person is, they will still already occupy a space in the social hierarchy no (ostensibly) black person could ever attain. 

One thing I do find to be a contradiction is her attitude toward George and Bertha and her attitude towards Jack.

Spoiler

She's proud that she helps a young upstart inventor, and doesn't extend same hopeful optimism that to the entrepreneur that lives across the street.

 

[RachelKM]

9 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

One thing I do find to be a contradiction is her attitude toward George and Bertha and her attitude towards Jack.

  Reveal spoiler

She's proud that she helps a young upstart inventor, and doesn't extend same hopeful optimism that to the entrepreneur that lives across the street.

 

Jack isn't trying to enter, much less reign over, her world.

[AntFTW]

30 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

Jack isn't trying to enter, much less reign over, her world.

For now.

[RedHawk]

17 hours ago, Roseanna said:

In short, Agnes is a prejudiced snob. She doesn't evaluate people as individuals on the basis of their character and work, but on the basis of outer qualities of birth they can't influenced on.

Yes, very much the way the upper crust was and to an extent still is.

And not just the upper crust. Plenty of people still admire those who have high income/wealth and come from certain families even if it's clear they are bad people.

Edited January 14 by RedHawk

[Roseanna]

On 1/13/2024 at 11:20 PM, RachelKM said:

Marriage was one of the limited ways women could gain security. Marrying a poor lawyer whose livelihood may never achieve financial stability and could even be lost would be a huge risk. 

Workers were poor, not layers - they belonged to the middle class and could support a family quite comfortably. The only risk to marry a man of a good profession but without a fortune was that a husband could died young. But as we have seen, a rich man good speculate and loose his fortune.

 The best way to guarantee safety to a woman was a good education and a profession of her own. That was quite possible in the 1880ies. 

Otherwise, a woman could get a fate like Agnes: sell her body to a man she didn't like.